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#1 Jun 07 2009 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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With ample information out now directly from SE indicating that casual solo play will have a more noteworthy place in FFXIV than it had in FFXI, I thought it might be interesting to talk about what you all feel would be appropriate in terms of rewards for solo play vs. group play.

In other words, should a solo player be able to develop their character at a rate on par with a group? If not, should the ability of the players in a group to develop their characters faster be based on the performance of the group with such a wide margin that even a crappy group develops characters faster than a good solo player?

Should group content offer better rewards (ie. gear) than solo content? If so, how much better? Slightly better mid-game and way better end-game? Way better all the way through?

The reason I bring this up is because it came up in a roundabout way in another thread. My personal opinion is that it should be possible for a group to achieve better rewards than a solo player, but not just because they're in a group. I think that a competent solo player should be able to develop their character at a reasonable pace so that playing solo doesn't seem like a second-best option to, for example, staying in a crappy party because it was the only one they could get.

To me, I think the potential for group players to advance their characters faster than a solo player should be based on the performance of the group, not simply because they showed up. I think the "additional" reward (vs. solo play) should come from not just targeting things and mashing keys while you watch TV, but for contributing to the team. I think we all know that a well-functioning group is capable of far more than the sum of its parts, and I think that there should be some additional benefit for being a part of that. I think that along with direct character development, there should be slightly improved gear rewards that come from group play as compared to solo play. Personally, I think that the difference should be modest but noticeable, and that there should be escalating progression in terms of gear rewards from end-game group play, but I personally also believe that there should be a little room for solo players to advance their toon through gear as well.

Your thoughts?

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 9:05pm by AureliusSir

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 8:46pm by AureliusSir
#2 Jun 07 2009 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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I think that any MMO out there enforces the idea that the BEST gear requires Group play. So I wouldn't be surprised in FFIV included the same idea.

But as for grinding and getting your way up to the cap:

It would be nice to see group play have some incentive to group up. It would be wonderful to solo around the world with your flag up, knowing that you aren't wasting your time just sitting around waiting for what might be a fail-party. Yet there still has to be some incentive to keep that flag up whilst soloing.

If the solo and party aspects of the game yielded the same results (not talking about dungeons or group quests, merely the simple task of grinding), then there would be no incentive to raise the LFG flag aside from wanting company.

Yes, a good group should advance faster than a bad group. I don't think anyone will argue with that.

Soloing being an option is wonderful, and it shouldn't be far from the advancement one gains in a group. Again, however, if there isn't an incentive to being in a group as opposed to soloing, then few people will want to join up unless it is for a dungeon or special group quest. Grinding in a group should have a benefit to it aside from just learning group dynamics. Maybe something as simple as letting everyone loot the mob and getting 6 party pooled loots from one mob. Doesn't affect the exp of solo or anything, just lets the party get more out of it.

Or perhaps you are playing as a tank, but instead of just getting skills in your defensive abilities, you are gaining slight increments in healing from watching that healer cast. A little cross spectrum skill up from being in a party as opposed to solo.

All Final Fantasy games have featured a group working in tandem. At least the numbered series.

Please don't tell me again that I am being whiny because I think some aspects aren't 'Final Fantasy enough'. It is Final Fantasy for Altana's sake.


Edited, Jun 8th 2009 12:33am by Shazaamemt
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#3 Jun 07 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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Depends on the difficulty.

Generally in MMOs, bosses that you are forced group against are the only way possible in order to beat said boss. All of that usually reaps high reward, usually the best of the best.

But as far as us goes, party-based battles are the norm here. In actuality, the majority of the playerbase has a much harder time soloing than they do partying, usually because the reliance on others stop them from learning the full extent of their jobs. Maat for instance, is practically a road-block for most players that don't prepare for it. But when you win, you are able to level to 75. If you solo him with all jobs, you get the Maat Trop--er...Cap.

So really this is up in the air for me. It really depends on the difficulty of the event in of itself. However, I will say that the "best of the best" gear should come from party-based scenarios.

EDIT: Skipped the rate of advancement question.

It's a hard question to answer since we really have no concrete idea on how FFXIV's growth system will be like, but group-based work should go at a faster rate than solo-based work per session... although solo-based should be comparable.

If you add in the fact that you only need yourself to do solo-work, and you actually have to wait for others to show up in order to do group-based work, going solo may actually have better returns in the long run.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 12:44am by CarthRDM
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#4 Jun 07 2009 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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The way I see it, you should WANT a group.

The benefits of being in a group are so great, that you WANT to be in a group.

However, you also benefit somewhat from soloing. Instead of waiting in town for 2 hours for a group to form, you can solo during that time period, as you look for a group, and still benefit from it.

Soloing should not be something you do instead of grouping. It should be something you do when you are not grouping.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 12:45am by Karelyn
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#5 Jun 07 2009 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
Soloing should not be something you do instead of grouping. It should be something you do when you are not grouping.

This is a very good point.
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#6 Jun 07 2009 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Karelyn wrote:
Soloing should not be something you do instead of grouping. It should be something you do when you are not grouping.


Agreed.

But what when should you be grouping? Is it only for dungeons? Is it for limit breaks? Is it for experience points?

I think that is the question that Aurelius was putting forth.

I believe that most MMO players think that soloing is only something you should do when you are not grouping.

What should the incentive for grouping be though?

Should the focus be on grouping, with soloing just being a way to use your time without wasting it?

Or should grouping be reserved for getting the good equipment and certain abilities?
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#7 Jun 07 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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personally i think that anyone who plays a MMO should naturally be inclined towards grouping. If you hate grouping and working with other people that much, then i would have to ask "why are you playing a MMO?" I can understand not grouping if you don't have the time, etc.
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#8 Jun 07 2009 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Bardalicious wrote:
personally i think that anyone who plays a MMO should naturally be inclined towards grouping. If you hate grouping and working with other people that much, then i would have to ask "why are you playing a MMO?" I can understand not grouping if you don't have the time, etc.


One answer...not necessarily my answer, but a not unrealistic one is that there is a shortage of engrossing standalone RPGs for PCs these days. If you've played the ones available and either milked them for all the entertainment value you could find or didn't really like them, you run out of options fairly quickly.

That's part of what really intrigued me about SE's announcement that FFXIV started out as a concept for the best Final Fantasy title "ever" and just naturally evolved to an MMO format. Some people see an MMO as an RPG built around grouping. Other people see an MMO as an RPG with the option to group. I knew people in WoW that had little to no interest in group content and while they may have leveled to the cap, progressing their character beyond that point was of little or no interest to them. If they felt the urge for the feeling of character progression, they'd level an alt. What they found the most entertaining was being an MMO entrepreneur, working the auction house, farming, and amassing a relative fortune. That's not something that would have been nearly as entertaining for them in a static environment like a standalone RPG, but the interactive component of an auction house in an MMO gave them a niche that kept them going for years.

I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, nor do I think that group-oriented players should be penalized for the sake of players who may or may not be interested in much if any group content. I do think, however, that for the sake of preserving an enjoyable environment for everyone who plays an MMORPG, regardless of why they play it, that rewards for group play vs. solo play should be carefully considered and balanced to reflect the added challenge of group play without fully alienating anyone.
#9 Jun 07 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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It seems like you are arguing for the ability to play FFXIV without ever having to group.

I know WOW players who play the game who hate the idea of having to group with other players.

Is this the point that you are making?

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#10 Jun 07 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
It seems like you are arguing for the ability to play FFXIV without ever having to group.

I know WOW players who play the game who hate the idea of having to group with other players.

Is this the point that you are making?



No.

Actually, yes. I think that if someone pays for the retail copy, pays their monthly fee, and doesn't gripe about the cost of expansions that there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to share some of the content. That entails that they should have the option to develop their character solo so that they can "safely" explore the same areas that any other character could "safely" explore solo so that they're not stuck staring at the same starter zones all the time. At the exact same time, I'm the last person who would argue that they should be able to solo faster than someone who likes to group, or that they should have access to the same quality and/or quantity of rewards for their efforts. The whole idea is that there should be rewards and incentives for people to participate in different aspects of the game that are only available in that content.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 11:04pm by AureliusSir
#11 Jun 07 2009 at 10:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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This I think is the fundamental difference that will be found between FFXI and WOW players. I think this is also the major hurdle that FFXIV will have to cross.

FFXI players want to party, they just don't want to waste hours or even minutes looking for one, they want to log in and instantly be placed in a party that will let them play effectively and progress.

WoW players want to be able to do whatever they want to do, no boundaries, if they feel like grouping for a raid then they will. If they just want to do so dailies and kill some mobs for world drops, then that's fine. If they want to PvP they can just do that and not have to deal with party dynamics and just kill Alliance. (Sorry I am horde, so it's kill alliance).

Both systems have their appeals, and both systems have their flaws. If SE can actually overcome and make it so both are equally appealing to any player (be they casual or hardcore), then I think they might actually have a 'WoW-killer' on their hands (but Blizzard has another mmo in the works too).

I would like to see any ideas on how to incorporate these 2 ideas into a single game.

Personally I think the Final Fantasy series has it's roots embedded in the idea of multiple characters overcoming a common goal, albeit for different means. That is to say, it is done as a group effort.

I honestly think that the players hoping for a game that they can play without ever having to play in a group with other gamers are going to be severely disappointed in FFXIV. It isn't a western company aiming for the goal of appeasing everyone they can get to subscribe. SE is still going to be an eastern company aiming for getting everyone they can to subscribe; without alienating the core base they have existed with for 2 decades.

But back to the 'team' point of this threads title.

Where does group play and solo play balance for everyone else? I think it is one of the most pressing and interesting topics that can be found in the speculation given the success of WoW and the statements made by the FFXIV development team thus far.


SOLO AND GROUP. HOW DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE/SHOULD BE BALANCED?
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#12 Jun 07 2009 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's fairly simple.

Most things you can solo, but in a group you can accomplish everything, and at a much more efficent rate than solo. This is the drive to form a party.

Sure, you can solo and only worry about a party when you have to have one to accomplish something specific, but you'll grow slower and you'ld have to put off quests until you reach a point where you could handle it yourself.

In a party, you'll grow much quicker and be able to acomplish much more than you normally would at your present growth. Also, there will be times when, to accomplish something, you will have to form a party - though these times will be rare.

For example, you log in and make up your mind to accomplish "X" (X = quest, mission, growth, etc). You raise your flag and then immediatly set out to work on X. Alone, X will take you around four hours to accomplish, but with a well-formed party you'll be able to accomplish the same thing in 1 hour and 15 minutes. The reason why you start working on it before you find a party is to simply keep busy and accomplish what you can before the party is formed.

An efficient player will always prefer a party, but soloing will be a realistic option, be it the longer one.
#13 Jun 07 2009 at 10:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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It may be just my FFXI-fanboyism, which I don't want to make it sound like, but I think that if one could play the game without ever having to group it'd do bad things to the community aspect of the game in general.

What I myself feel would be the best thing to do (I'm not saying that it is), is to make the grouping as easy as possible with little to no risk of getting nothing out of it, while making solo play a kind of "waiting room" until you get to group up. Most complaints about FFXI's system come from the fact that there's no way to really progress your character (aside from crafting) while looking for group. If SE were to fix this in XIV by making soloing a viable, yet not so efficient way to progress your character while waiting for group, as well as make the grouping process as easy as possible and make the lfp times shorter by expanding, for example the search system, they could be able to create a near "perfect" "forced" grouping MMO experience.

When I talk about easy grouping, I mean that SE should eliminate factors that could somehow make the group play less fun or stressing. Search system should be expanded to make looking for members as easy as possible (ability to lfg on many "jobs" at the same time for example), and the party size you need to get good experience should be made smaller. One thing that would help is to make the parties less dependant on some generally accepted roles such as healer, tank, or support. That way if there is no tank lfg the leader could invite some other role instead and the party would still be able to function at 80-90% potential. Also, if assumed that there are "camps" like in FFXI the road there should be fast so that there will be as little downtime as possible (30min travel times to <2min, etc.). That way even if somebody has little time to party, getting a replacement would be a simple and fast process to relieve the stress of leader as well as lessen the feeling of disappointment if a party member d/c's or has to leave the party suddenly. If "exp" is gained some other way SE would have to make other actions to help this issue, but I won't start speculating what the method of progressing the character could be.

Monsters should also be made "easier".. and by that I mean that in general normal mobs shouldn't have moves like Cursed sphere, Cocoon and Metallic body, which could ruin the exp if there is no one to dispel these moves in the group or heal the party.

If the lfg times could be shortened to maximum of 15mins, party play made as fun as possible and at the same time as stressless as possible, as well as creating a soloing "option" but only for the purpose of waiting for the invite or if you don't have enough time to group up for exp/mission/event etc. SE could reinvent the party based MMO wheel but this time in a way that it appeals to both casual and hardcore, and not just hardcore like in XI.

Last thing: while this kind of system wouldn't necessarily be the "optimal" way SE could go about making the game casual, I think that it'd be unique enough to differ from the usual MMO experience.. Since there are games out there that use a more forgiving solo system, but right now there aren't many games that use a party based system like this that would work for the casual people, SE could make a good alternative for those wishing for this kind of gameplay instead of making a little tweaked copy of the system used by lots of MMO's already. The game would also appeal to a little different audience than for example WoW, and both systems would be able to coexist at the same time (WoW wouldn't be "killed" when everyone moved to FFXIV, but both games would have a large userbase at the same time)

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 8:52am by Hyanmen
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#14 Jun 08 2009 at 12:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
In other words, should a solo player be able to develop their character at a rate on par with a group? If not, should the ability of the players in a group to develop their characters faster be based on the performance of the group with such a wide margin that even a crappy group develops characters faster than a good solo player?


I more or less agree with your thoughts on this. I do think being in a group should help you develop faster, but not inherently so just because they happen to be in a party, it should be because they're killing more mobs. But let's face it, even a mediocre group of 6ish players should have no problem killing faster than a solo player. I really hope SE doesn't dumb down the wildlife to the point where they can be killed solo within 2 or so attack rounds, which is really the only way a solo player would keep up in kill speed with a party. At the same time though I wouldn't want people to feel like they're being punished for soloing. I've actually taken to doing a lot of solo grinding in FFXI as of late (yes it's possible, especially nowadays), I do so fully realizing that I'm not going to level as fast as I would in a party and I'm ok with that, I mostly do it for the challenge.


However, if XIV's character progression works the way I hope it does, a system where performing certain actions increases your proficiency in the skill set and role associated with those actions, then kill speed would be a relative non-factor, and the difference in solo progression and party play would be less about how fast you progress and more about what skill sets you develop. I used the example in the thread where this was brought up of a support class potentially having trouble skilling their buff abilities solo, the same could be said of a tank having underdeveloped hate building tools, or a BLM type class having to focus too much on survival to fully develop their ******* to be as powerful as the ******* of a party BLM who while XPing can sit back and nuke repeatedly. To me this would be an ideal scenario, it would allow someone who prefers solo play to not only solo to their hearts content without feeling short-changed, but even to build their character around soloing just by doing it.

Quote:
Should group content offer better rewards (ie. gear) than solo content? If so, how much better? If gear earned in group play should be better than what same level solo content has to offer, how much better should it be? Slightly better mid-game and way better end-game? Way better all the way through?


To me the rewards from group events should be significantly better than those from soloable events. A boss that takes 18 people to kill is obviously a stronger mob than one that takes 1 right? I mean, weather or not the fight itself proves more difficult can be debatable, there's a challenge to said for having no one to depend on but yourself for sure, but it's obviously a more imposing beast if it takes 18 people to bring down as opposed to 1. I think logically a higher 'tier' boss should drop relatively higher 'tier' gear, and relatively speaking a difference of 17 people is a lot.

Beyond that train of thought, building and maintaining a successful endgame linkshell takes a lot of work... recruiting members, maintaining a bank, tracking points, resolving drama, making sure everyone understands the battle plan and is on the same page at the start of an event etc, I had to run a Sky linkshell for half a year and it wasn't fun at all and Sky is the most basic of endgame in XI. Even beyond the people who build the linkshells, sticking around after you've gotten your drops so that the other people can get theirs takes loyalty. I think the people that put in the effort to build that community rather than just sticking to the solo content for their own gear needs should be rewarded for that effort.

I would hope though that whatever soloable event or NM type content available can offer viable alternatives.

One benefit I wanted to mention about there being significantly better gear from group events is this. Let's say someone starts the game preferring to solo, they solo their XP and eventually have an endgame capable character. They want to gear up, but still preferring the solo style of play they opt for the solo means to get it. Time goes on and eventually they have all the solo content gear they want, and they're happy with. From there they spend a lot of their time helping newer adventures along their travels, something that their solo build character is likely adept at. Maybe they dabble in some crafts, maybe work on some different character builds... they do whatever they do and it keeps them entertained.

Well after some more time passes maybe they start to get curious about what the more group oriented events are like so they begin looking into joining a linkshell. Now the thing is, if the gear they acquired through their solo journey is on par with the gear available through group play, then they wouldn't have any goals to strive for in this new endeavor. It'll just be something to do. Sure they can still just try it for fun, something new, but it would still be new and fun if they were working toward a goal while there, and in the end they would have something to show for their time there. That's just something to think about.
#15 Jun 08 2009 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
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First a bit of premise to my answers. I believe that Square-Enix putting more of a focus on the ability to solo would first suggest much better survivability and less downtime in general for all classes. Something along the lines that you would be able to solo an Even Match at any time during your career and actually have a good chance of defeating it while reaping similar rewards to FFXI for doing so. This of course would also carry over to the 'team' mechanic as well to allow the many vs many fights, which has already been hinted at. Doing something along the lines of, when in a group of decent skill, seeing what was seen as group of Incredibly Tough when soloing show up as group of Tough instead, and each player reaping the rewards of soloing a Tough (plus group bonus) would also make sense. In other words the difficulty level of defeating a Tough without teamwork as a group would be similar to that of a Tough soloing, but in actuality would be easier with teamwork. I hope I explained this well enough.

Quote:
Should a solo player be able to develop their character at a rate on par with a group?

If the group sucks, then yes.

Quote:
Should the ability of the players in a group to develop their characters faster be based on the performance of the group with such a wide margin that even a crappy group develops characters faster than a good solo player?

I believe the bonus for being in a group should be something like +100% when facing something like an Incredibly Tough mob (only the elite players, think top 10%, would be able to defeat, and even then not guaranteed), +50% when fighting a Very Tough mob (your above average skilled players, think top 30%, would be able to defeat semi-consistently), +25% when fighting a Tough mob (average skilled players, think top 50%), -25% when fighting a Even Match mob (unskilled players, think top 80%), and -50% when fighting things below Even Match (lazy players).

Something along the lines of the following:
A lazy group would develop considerably slower then a lazy solo player.
A unskilled group would develop slightly slower then a unskilled solo player, but equal to a lazy solo player.
A average group would develop slightly faster then a average solo player, but equal to an above average solo player.
A above average group would develop considerably faster then a above average solo player, but equal to an elite solo player.
An elite group would develop insanely faster then an elite solo player.

Adding a bonus for both groups and solo players who are engaged and defeat groups of enemies at once would also be a good idea.

Quote:
Should group content offer better rewards (ie. gear) than solo content? If so, how much better? If gear earned in group play should be better than what same level solo content has to offer, how much better should it be? Slightly better mid-game and way better end-game? Way better all the way through?

The gear and other drop rewards when in a group would have to be better then soloing as you would be fighting higher level mobs in a group then you would soloing. Higher level mobs mean higher level drops, end of story. The solo player would gain drops only useful to his current level and below. A group would gain drops useful for future levels. (Yes I know the Square-Enix said the level system is being scrapped, but you get the idea)
#16 Jun 08 2009 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
I'm tired of talking team. I'd be happy with something like campaign, where you work with people in groups or solo, but can act independently.

They mentioned less weighty advancement, I'd love to play a game without weight of others expectations. FFXI you did what was accepted or you never got parties.
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#17 Jun 08 2009 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm tired of talking team. I'd be happy with something like campaign, where you work with people in groups or solo, but can act independently.

They mentioned less weighty advancement, I'd love to play a game without weight of others expectations. FFXI you did what was accepted or you never got parties.


Yeah I think you pretty much hit that nail on the head. If SE can take what they started with Campaign and refine it into a more globalized leveling structure it would make for the ultimate solo friendly group oriented MMO experience.
#18 Jun 08 2009 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I'd love to play a game without weight of others expectations. FFXI you did what was accepted or you never got parties.


I think this is true of almost any MMO where you group with others, you will be expected to fill a role in the group, and you will either do what is accepted by the group or the group will end up dropping you.

In FFXI it was pretty harsh, if you wanted to be a RDM melee but didn't want to equip gear that allowed you to refresh the group, you would be dropped pretty quickly. In WoW you could play whatever you wanted, but a priest will usually end up as a healer in any pick up group (and in most larger groups or planned groups) no matter how much they insist they want to DPS and are a DPS.

Which brings me to another question, if you can do as you please with your character in solo play, but still be expected to fill a certain role in party play, do you think you will care? Mind though, there is still no current MMO I can think of where you can get the best equipment and abilities while playing solo.

Quote:

I'm tired of talking team.


Then maybe the thread titled 'Let's talk Team' might not be the best place to read and post.
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#19 Jun 08 2009 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Ohh, wouldn't a FF with a ton of besieged and campaign events taking place even at level 1 be awesome though.

Not as a focus of the game, but just as another way to exp and play from day 1.

Imagine if you logged in for the first time in FFXI and found your home city besieged by lvl 10 and under mobs that were instanced to only be encountered by those level 15 and under. Then after you hit 15 (or hit a certain mission rank with the city that required engagement) the city would become instanced and the beastmen had been repelled from that city, or that area of the city.
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#20 Jun 08 2009 at 12:37 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Shazaamemt wrote:
It seems like you are arguing for the ability to play FFXIV without ever having to group.

I know WOW players who play the game who hate the idea of having to group with other players.

Is this the point that you are making?



No.

Actually, yes. I think that if someone pays for the retail copy, pays their monthly fee, and doesn't gripe about the cost of expansions that there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to share some of the content. That entails that they should have the option to develop their character solo so that they can "safely" explore the same areas that any other character could "safely" explore solo so that they're not stuck staring at the same starter zones all the time. At the exact same time, I'm the last person who would argue that they should be able to solo faster than someone who likes to group, or that they should have access to the same quality and/or quantity of rewards for their efforts. The whole idea is that there should be rewards and incentives for people to participate in different aspects of the game that are only available in that content.


Well, before I buy a game I usually check for reviews and possible game play and also check up on the game on forums and its community. I check if the game is solo friendly or not, I check if it’s hardcore or not, I check a lot of things and I thank god for the having an internet connection. If you buy a game without doing any of the above it’s your own fault for not checking up the game before buying it. If the game does not contain the elements that you want then the normal logic would be put the game back on the shelf and look for another game. This is of course much more important for an MMO since you might play if for a decade and pay a monthly fee for it. Even for single player games, nowadays its standard procedure to check up on the game before you buy it.
The bottom line here is it’s really hard to buy a MMO game randomly without knowing what you get, and then start to demand or complain about it afterwards. Why waste my time and energy when I can make a very fast and easy evaluation of the game before I buy it, so that I won't regret or complain about if afterwards?

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 4:40am by Maldavian
#21 Jun 08 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Default
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Not a thread about reviews.

It is a thread about what opinions are on solo and group play.


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#22 Jun 08 2009 at 12:54 AM Rating: Good
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Which brings me to another question, if you can do as you please with your character in solo play, but still be expected to fill a certain role in party play, do you think you will care? Mind though, there is still no current MMO I can think of where you can get the best equipment and abilities while playing solo.


As long as solo play is interesting and fun, I won't care. I don't want it to be like FFXI where if you get to 75, you have to do what the group says to get anything. Then, its either start over, quit, or do what others tell you literally to the equipment you wear.

What's the point if FFXIV is a copy, and you hit cap just to have to respec your throwing knife mage into a healer to get anything done?

Quote:
Then maybe the thread titled 'Let's talk Team' might not be the best place to read and post.


that's a statement for effect. FFXI was all about the group, I put my 3 years into it, and I plunk myself officially on the "solo equal to group advancement side."
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#23 Jun 08 2009 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
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PopeyesOpenEye wrote:
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I'm tired of talking team. I'd be happy with something like campaign, where you work with people in groups or solo, but can act independently.

They mentioned less weighty advancement, I'd love to play a game without weight of others expectations. FFXI you did what was accepted or you never got parties.


Yeah I think you pretty much hit that nail on the head. If SE can take what they started with Campaign and refine it into a more globalized leveling structure it would make for the ultimate solo friendly group oriented MMO experience.


Agreed. When I left FFXI I went to Age of Conan. After all the grindage that was FFXI I felt like a heavy weight had been lifted by being able to handle pretty much anything solo.

The only thing you could not do solo in AoC was some instance group quests that had elites in them and the usual Raids. I very much enjoyed the freedom I had in that game, I did not have to depend on anyone to progress.

That said, I leveled three toons to 80 and in that time between all three of them (not counting raids) I had five real balance (6 man) xp grind groups. You could get the best xp in a good group and decent gear yet no one grouped like this. Since people could solo they did, hardly ever speaking in /say at all.

Those five groups I did have four of them were all guild mates, I only had one pug group ever maxing out three toons... ever. It seems making it too easy to solo (as in being able to solo same speed as a group) makes people anti-social, hardly no one talks to anyone they pass by they only talk in /guild or in /global.

Now all I complained about in FFXI was the need to be able to solo to some extent to which they made a good start with Campaign and I enjoyed it a lot. The level sync was after my time.

I guess the point I am trying to make is, the strong need for groups in FFXI made me some good friends. I found it much easier to get to know people in FFXI than in any other MMO I have played so far. In all the others people just go do their own thing and rarely speak, you end up feeling like you are in a single player game for the most part.

Guilds helped, but I like to meet others as I progress through the game and make friends along the way. In AoC/WoW about the only time you get a group invite is when someone wants gold -_-
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#24 Jun 08 2009 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
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As long as solo play is interesting and fun, I won't care. I don't want it to be like FFXI where if you get to 75, you have to do what the group says to t anything. Then, its either start over, quit, or do what others tell you literally to the equipment you wear.

What's the point if FFXIV is a copy, and you hit cap just to have to respec your throwing knife mage into a healer to get anything done?


Huh? There are so many inconsistencies with FFXI that I don't even know where to begin.

'Start over, quit' ? On FFXI? Why would anyone need to start over in FFXI?

'If you hit 75 you have to do what the group says to get anything.'

? You mean like listening to directions on an endgame boss? Or do you mean like not meleeing as a BLM?

'Hit cap just to have to respec your throwing knife mage into a healer to get anything done'

Seriously, WTF are you talking about.

Please, keep all craziness to aspects of solo and group play comments.
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#25 Jun 08 2009 at 1:15 AM Rating: Default
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That said, I leveled three toons to 80 and in that time between all three of them (not counting raids) I had five real balance (6 man) xp grind groups. You could get the best xp in a good group and decent gear yet no one grouped like this. Since people could solo they did, hardly ever speaking in /say at all.

Those five groups I did have four of them were all guild mates, I only had one pug group ever maxing out three toons... ever. It seems making it too easy to solo (as in being able to solo same speed as a group) makes people anti-social, hardly no one talks to anyone they pass by they only talk in /guild or in /global.


And the first AoC player has spoken up in this forum. (at least to my knowledge).

3 max leveled characters, 5 real exp groups. (4 being guild made). One group with random other players in the course of maxxing out 3 characters.

I wouldn't want to play that as my next MMO, but that is just me.
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#26 Jun 08 2009 at 1:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Huh? There are so many inconsistencies with FFXI that I don't even know where to begin.

'Start over, quit' ? On FFXI? Why would anyone need to start over in FFXI?

'If you hit 75 you have to do what the group says to get anything.'

? You mean like listening to directions on an endgame boss? Or do you mean like not meleeing as a BLM?

'Hit cap just to have to respec your throwing knife mage into a healer to get anything done'

Seriously, WTF are you talking about.

Please, keep all craziness to aspects of solo and group play comments.


do you even play it?

See my beastmaster? It's 75.Imagine that was my first job to 75. Want to know something? It's absolutely useless in merit and endgame play.

So if it were my first to 75, I would be unable to get in any shells unless we had a pet shell on my server. If i wanted to do sky with it now, i would be told to go level a mage job. If I wanted to merit, its either soloing or campaign-unless i had friends, I would not get any merit invites but pity ones. People in FFXI level second jobs just to get merits faster.

Lets look at my other job, paladin. If I want to be taken seriously I need gear now not only a shield build, but a DD one. If I want to be any endgame paladin at all, i need to level ninja subjob, get a haste gear set, get a elemental resistance build, and either get a serious dd build because paladin, too is a useless merit job, or solo all my merits and buffer exp slowly in campaign.

That's if the shell even needs paladin yet again. I might be told to also level a mage job to get into those shells. Or I have to get sea access and beat COP. I have to fill out an application and have the right amount of jobs and missions done just to do things at 75 with an endgame linkshell.

At 75, to get anywheres, you do what other people want. You bring bard to events even though you love blue mage. If the shell is good they will be able to let you come as blue mage now and then. If you are corsair, and they want you just buffing the mages, it doesn't matter how awesome your /rng dd build is-you go buff the mage.

Heck, even subjob choice is almost always what other people want. You a white mage and don't have scholar sub leveled? Hello gimp. Even if you cant stand scholar, you will get flack for not levelling it, even with /blm. If you show up as /thf as a melee, you probably will be told to change your sub or get kicked.

The word weight was pretty well chosen.

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#27 Jun 08 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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The need and benefit to group for progression is very much a balance issue. At one end of the spectrum you'd have a game where solo is a very viable and easy way to level up. You're in no way penalized for going this route, and trying to group for XP is really as efficient and easy in the end. World of Warcraft is a great example of such a game. On the other hand, you'd have a game where virtually the only efficient way of leveling is through party-play. FFXI/EQ are two good examples of that. The problem comes in when you try to make something inbetween. FFXI has as of late added elements for soloing for XP, which in all honesty aren't that great either.

I think when players are given the option between soloing and grouping, they'll by quite a large margin opt to solo. Even if grouping is 10-20% faster in a semi-ok group, most will still go the solo route. It's just a mentality of alot of people to choose the easiest option, and what better way would that be when you can play on your own terms and on your own schedule? Some might claim that it's not the case, but just look at WoW as an example. Past lv60, instance grinding for xp is a very viable and fast way to level up, yet people avoid this option for the most part.

I personally find the concept of a game where alot of the content can be done solo with a franchise like Final Fantasy is, quite frankly, strange. In previous installments the journey of progressing the main character together with his/her companions takes place over a longer period of time, travelling around the world and developing the story. They might try to appeal to a broader playerbase by having more solo-elements, but at the same time, it somewhat diminishes large parts of the game which some might consider appealing. The change in mechanics might also be disliked by some of the older FFXI playerbase, who are used to the party-oriented style of playing, and didn't jump over to WoW because of that.

And finally, I think it's somewhat given in almost any MMO that groupbased events should yield better rewards than something you'd get from playing solo. At the same time, I still wish for some progression that can be attained on your own, but the majority of the progression of your character should take place in a group or raidbased environment.
#28 Jun 08 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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I think the solo and group aspects of the game should be somewhat separate and the rewards somewhat incompatible with each other. The gear could have different stats and look different so you can tell who solos and who doesn't. Endgame should have solo and group aspects. I have a lot of ideas for solo but my headache is preventing me from listing them...maybe some other time.
#29 Jun 08 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:

Should group content offer better rewards (ie. gear) than solo content? If so, how much better? If gear earned in group play should be better than what same level solo content has to offer, how much better should it be? Slightly better mid-game and way better end-game? Way better all the way through?


The factors as to why end game group loot is so much more powerful then solo;

*How many people does it need to run the raid? You need to gather 25 people that need to clear their schedule and free up time, often this is a big problem for many guild/LS where getting 25 people that have the correct job that you need for an encounter. Also consider the normal flow of people leaving the guild/LS invite new player to replace, making that player welcomed in the LS, and is the player good enough or will he be bad that you need to replace him.
* How hard is it to organize the event, with keeping time, track of members, LS website, maybe dkp,
* Are there any time limit on the event, meaning you gather so much people and organize such a huge event and the event is time limited.
* How hard is the event, you need every member to be elite(extremely skilled) players to achieve victory
* Do you have a lockout mechanism that will only let you clear the event only x time / week (Raid Lockout)
* How long does the event take, the longer an event is ongoing the more problematic to stage the raid
* Do you need any prequests or attunements for said event, maybe you need all the 25 people if not more to go through series of other event and quest and mission to even be able to enter certain event/raids.
* Do you need gear requirement or buff food / consumable for the event
* Running a raid also involve to some degree solving drama or problems that might occur
* Orchestrating 25 man so that they work in harmony and beat said encounter
* How rare is the item / drop rate / or maybe you need to collect parts of it and build the item over a long period of time. (Aka relics) Add this to that you are competing with at least 25 people or even higher numbers since most guilds/LS have more members then that.

I can make the list enormously long. When comparing that to a single player you will realize if you don’t set the difference high enough there won’t be any incentive to create raids and thus no point in doing those events.


Edited, Jun 8th 2009 7:32pm by Maldavian
#30 Jun 08 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
Honestly I'd be find if most character progression stuff required groups, as with most mission/story advancement. That would be fine with me. What I want though is worthwhile things, especially at endgame, that do not require a group nor long hours. Just stuff you can do when you feel like playing but don't want to be all hardcore or your guild doesn't have something planned.

It could even be something like doing quests or gathering resources for a guild hall upgrade, or maybe if they had a more in-depth crafting system + involved and lively auction house.
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#31 Jun 08 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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The Neispace of Doom wrote:
I'm tired of talking team. I'd be happy with something like campaign, where you work with people in groups or solo, but can act independently.

They mentioned less weighty advancement, I'd love to play a game without weight of others expectations. FFXI you did what was accepted or you never got parties.


I agree big time... FFXI=MUST party (95% of the time). Let's let FFXIV be what SE is designing it to be, "Casual". Party if you want, Solo if you want.

I for one DO NOT want XIV to be like XI, period.
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#32 Jun 08 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Should group content offer better rewards (ie. gear) than solo content? If so, how much better? If gear earned in group play should be better than what same level solo content has to offer, how much better should it be? Slightly better mid-game and way better end-game? Way better all the way through?


The factors as to why end game group loot is so much more powerful then solo;


I'm going to play devils advocate here to illustrate a point for the purpose of fostering discussion.

Quote:
*How many people does it need to run the raid? You need to gather 25 people that need to clear their schedule and free up time, often this is a big problem for many guild/LS where getting 25 people that have the correct job that you need for an encounter. Also consider the normal flow of people leaving the guild/LS invite new player to replace, making that player welcomed in the LS, and is the player good enough or will he be bad that you need to replace him.


Mostly administrative details that are typically handled by the leader and possibly officers. Not saying it's an unimportant element of enabling end-game content, but I'm not sure if Joe Scrub who just logs in, accepts an invite and shows up should be entitled to a higher quality of gear (and/or more ready access to gear) because he's lucky enough to have a small handful of folks who take on the bulk of the administrative details.

Quote:
* How hard is it to organize the event, with keeping time, track of members, LS website, maybe dkp,


As above. If you've got a group of 18 people, how many people does it require to keep track of that? 1? 2? 3? Again, the people who just log in and accept invites still haven't done anything noteworthy to "deserve" access to any special reward.

Quote:
* Are there any time limit on the event, meaning you gather so much people and organize such a huge event and the event is time limited.


Again...administrative.

Quote:
* How hard is the event, you need every member to be elite(extremely skilled) players to achieve victory


I would say that should definitely be a factor in helping to determine the quality/quantity of potential rewards.

Quote:
* Do you have a lockout mechanism that will only let you clear the event only x time / week (Raid Lockout)


I could see that as being used to determine quantity relative to the number of people the content was tuned for, though perhaps not quality.

Quote:
* How long does the event take, the longer an event is ongoing the more problematic to stage the raid


I think the key thing there is to take into account not only how long the event takes, but why it takes that long. If the content can be done from start to finish in 6 hours by an average group but can be broken down into 1-2 hour segments, I'm not sure that the reward should be tuned on the assumption that people are spending 6 hours at a stretch working towards a successful outcome. Not saying that's what you're saying, just another layer to consider.

Quote:
* Do you need any prequests or attunements for said event, maybe you need all the 25 people if not more to go through series of other event and quest and mission to even be able to enter certain event/raids.


I think the scope of what you're getting attuned for should be considered. Is it a two hour attunement process that gives you access to hours upon hours of content? If so, then the attunement process itself might play a trivial role in assessing quality/quantity of rewards. I think attunements were initially intended as a means of a gear/skill check. (ie. If you can't complete the attunement process, you've got no chance in **** of being successful in the content you're trying to get attuned for.) On the other hand, is it a 20 hour attunement process that gives you access to 1-2 hours worth of content? If so, then that definitely suggests that if you're successful in that 1-2 hours there should be something glowy and delightful at the end.

Quote:
* Do you need gear requirement or buff food / consumable for the event


I can see that being a consideration more from the gear requirement standpoint. If you need a certain quality of gear to be successful in a certain part of the content, it wouldn't make sense that you should be rewarded with gear of lesser quality.

Quote:
* Running a raid also involve to some degree solving drama or problems that might occur


Again, administrative. If the leadership is good and drama crops up often enough to be a nuisance, there are ways to deal with it. If the leadership is poor and drama crops up. find better leaders. I can't say that I think tolerating poor leadership should entitle someone to a particular reward unless the content is tuned such that only a handful of people are able to participate in it.

Quote:
* Orchestrating 25 man so that they work in harmony and beat said encounter


That's definitely a challenge that extends beyond administration and I think that extending one's consideration beyond not just how to kill the monster in front of them but to how to help the people they're with kill the monster, there should be some additional reward.

Quote:
* How rare is the item / drop rate / or maybe you need to collect parts of it and build the item over a long period of time. (Aka relics) Add this to that you are competing with at least 25 people or even higher numbers since most guilds/LS have more members then that.


Something of a tuning issue. Well, mostly a tuning issue. If the rewards are tuned in such a way as to make you feel as though you're competing with the people you rely on to be successful in the content, maybe the quantity of rewards could be re-evaluated. If it's simply a case where the rewards take a long time to acquire then yes, I think they should be of a higher quality than something that comes more quickly.

Continuing with the devil's advocate theme to more succinctly illustrate the point of administrative rewards, if I assemble a party for the purpose of developing my character, should my character develop significantly faster than the people I find and invite to the party because I took on the additional task of forming the group? If not, should the entire group develop their characters faster than a solo player because someone else took on the task of assembling the group? Or should the group be able to develop faster than a solo player (through skills and/or gear) entirely based on what they actually accomplish in the group?
#33 Jun 08 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Honestly I'd be find if most character progression stuff required groups, as with most mission/story advancement. That would be fine with me. What I want though is worthwhile things, especially at endgame, that do not require a group nor long hours. Just stuff you can do when you feel like playing but don't want to be all hardcore or your guild doesn't have something planned.

It could even be something like doing quests or gathering resources for a guild hall upgrade, or maybe if they had a more in-depth crafting system + involved and lively auction house.


I could not agree more. One of the things that I've run into with LOTRO is that I have 2 chars at max level, have maxed out my rep with the important folks, and have maxed out crafting. I've got various lowbies that I'm working on as well, but it's not fun doing the same quests for the 3rd or 4th time through. The only way I could get the maxed rep was to grind out the same quests over and over again, and my max crafting is useless now because of the gear that was added to the game for endgame raiding, making crafted gear irrelevant.

I really hope that there's a varied experience in store for us with XIV. I don't want to do the same thing all the time, and want to have a choice of activities. Sometimes I may want to solo, sometimes I may want to group, and other times, I may want to do something completely different like craft or take part in some fun side games or quests.

As for the thread topic, I hope there's a balanced mix between solo and group play. Knowing what little we know about the job system (or lack thereof), the importance of weapons for character growth, and the absence of exp, I think we're all going to have to change how we look at advancement in an MMO setting. I really think that if Squenix does this right, they're going to have something new, fresh, and innovative - something that other MMOs don't have.

For instance, let's look at a character that wants to focus on healing. Let's say hypothetically, that in XIV, in order for you to gain new skills, you have to use your weapon so many times, or have it equipped for a certain number of battles. You could go out and do this on your own, or you could group up. Grouping up may give you bonuses to learning certain abilities, or it could even grant you new abilities entirely that are tailored for group play, like a strong group heal or buff. When you play solo, you may gain skills that allow you to keep yourself alive easier, or a strong defensive single-target spell.

It's all going to depend on the way we advance in XIV, and just from the little we've learned so far, I'm looking forward to learning more.
#34 Jun 08 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Default
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Group focused MMO ftw, what's the point on wanting to solo? this is a ***** mmo
#35 Jun 08 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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In other words, should a solo player be able to develop their character at a rate on par with a group? If not, should the ability of the players in a group to develop their characters faster be based on the performance of the group with such a wide margin that even a crappy group develops characters faster than a good solo player?

Tricky question. There's such a wide range of crappiness. Some groups are really crappy. I recall a few in XI that wouldn't manage to pull more than one monster in two hours or more. I came out of more than one group with a net loss after that length of time.

I definitely think groups should be the more efficient option -- within reason. Keep in mind also that the game will apparently allow character growth through questing and story advancement, which could alter the necessary balance somewhat. Meanwhile, hopefully a few of those quests will still require help.

I support a healthy level of encouraged -- and maybe occasionally mandatory -- grouping. I say that in part because I know that I probably would have soloed 90% of my time in XI if that had been an option, and it would have been a much different (and much worse) experience. I met some of the best people I know in that game.

Quote:
Should group content offer better rewards (ie. gear) than solo content? If so, how much better? If gear earned in group play should be better than what same level solo content has to offer, how much better should it be? Slightly better mid-game and way better end-game? Way better all the way through?

Interesting idea. I think that this route of offering some non-EXP rewards for group play is a good way to go.

How about this: like in FF Tactics, when you fight in a group you earn a small amount of EXP (or whatever its XIV equivalent is) in the jobs of the other people in your party? It's logical, because you do learn things about how other jobs are played when you fight next to them. And it's something that can't be duplicated when playing solo.

The exact balance of rewards is going to be difficult. Whatever route the devs take, you can expect that they'll still be tweaking it years after release.
#36 Jun 08 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

'Hit cap just to have to respec your throwing knife mage into a healer to get anything done'

Seriously, WTF are you talking about.


Yes I played the game extensively for 5 years.

What I want to know is WTF you were talking about with a 'throwing knife mage'.
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#37 Jun 08 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:

'Hit cap just to have to respec your throwing knife mage into a healer to get anything done'

Seriously, WTF are you talking about.


Yes I played the game extensively for 5 years.

What I want to know is WTF you were talking about with a 'throwing knife mage'.


If you look at the static artwork on the FFXIV info page, you'll see what appears to be a black mage (long pointy hat and a staff) sitting at a table and on the ledge directly behind him are two utility belts...one of which has several small knives that could easily be thought of as throwing knives. Kinda fits with the concept of diversity hinted at by the devs.
#38 Jun 08 2009 at 7:55 PM Rating: Default
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Ohh, the poster was talking about FFXIV possibilities?

Since the rest of the post talked about FFXI and having to restart his char etc I thought he was talking about FFXI.

Which lead me to ask WTF are you talking about with having to respec and restart and quit your 'knife-throwing mage'.

So why did they ask me if I had ever played FFXI when I asked WTF they were talking about a 'knife-throwing' mage, instead of pointing out that it was a theory based on the FFXIV artwork?





Edited, Jun 8th 2009 11:56pm by Shazaamemt
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#39 Jun 08 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Ohh, the poster was talking about FFXIV possibilities?

Since the rest of the post talked about FFXI and having to restart his char etc I thought he was talking about FFXI.

Which lead me to ask WTF are you talking about with having to respec and restart and quit your 'knife-throwing mage'.

So why did they ask me if I had ever played FFXI when I asked WTF they were talking about a 'knife-throwing' mage, instead of pointing out that it was a theory based on the FFXIV artwork?


You might want to re-read what they said. They were talking about how being successful in group content at the level cap in FFXI quite often means having to level a particular job or subjob to suit the demands of the group. Tie it in to FFXIV, and what's the point of all the job diversity if the same grouping mechanics are in place and you're going to level your character to cap based on what you enjoy only to be told that if you want to participate in end-game, you have to do something else entirely?

At least, that's how I interpreted it.
#40 Jun 08 2009 at 8:17 PM Rating: Default
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But none of that is 'Restarting' or 'Respecing'. You still keep your character and learned skills and stats.

Bst may have been the only solo-viable job in FFXI, but if you want to do endgame in FFXI you need to join a group.

It never required a 'restart' or a new character, just that you start a new job.

I got to endgame as a Warlock in WOW, and the guild only needed tanks/healers. So I leveled up a DK tank (just because I could start at 55 and cut out part of the time). That is what I consider a 'Restart', making a brand new character and leveling them up to participate in endgame.

If you hit 75 as a BST in wow, even as solo, you wouldn't have to go back and progress your city missions, or re-do your limit breaks, or even worry about leveling up your axe skill. You kept all your gil and craft skills.
It might have been starting again at level 1 in a new job, but it was far easier to restart at level 1 as a 75.

So maybe FFXIV is hinting at a similar system with far less player abuse and more player flexibility. You can level as any sort of character, even a 'knife throwing mage' up to max level in solo. But if you want to group you are going to have to fill some sort of slot in that group. That will probably mean that you need to change your play type to being whatever is accepted by the group.

It isn't like FFXI said, hey you can't have a BST in your group, it was the community that decided it just wasn't the best job to have in a group.

That is the community, not the design, and if you want to argue that the developers should shape the community I just can't see how that is possible.

If any character/player can join a group with any other character/player and do Endgame events, then the classes would probably end up as a homogenized mess. It would be like any other Final Fantasy in which you could have every character learn every ability and use them all at once. Great for playing as a soloer, but it just doesn't seem to be a very interesting idea for a MMO.
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#41 Jun 08 2009 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
But none of that is 'Restarting' or 'Respecing'. You still keep your character and learned skills and stats.

Bst may have been the only solo-viable job in FFXI, but if you want to do endgame in FFXI you need to join a group.

It never required a 'restart' or a new character, just that you start a new job.


OK, so you're a BST and you decide you want to do end-game and your shell tells you that they only need a COR...a job that you may or may not have unlocked but that you have never leveled. Does your COR start at level 75 because that's what level your BST is, or does your COR start at level 1? So is it that much of a stretch that it might feel like you're having to start the leveling process all over again? Or to put it another way, that you'd have to re-start the leveling process? And what happens if your shell can't wait and they recruit another COR before you even get to level 30? What then? Do you have to re-start the leveling process on yet another job?

I mean really...it's not a mind boggling thing to consider. Do you go out of your way to be thick and argumentative, or is it just a tragic personality trait?
#42 Jun 08 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I thought it might be interesting to talk about what you all feel would be appropriate in terms of rewards for solo play vs. group play


Solo = the ability to get decent xp by yourself when you don't have a lot time during the day to play

Party = get good amount of xp because you are facing tougher challenges be it higher monster levels or multiple mobs.

Honestly FFXI has a better good system in place right, but didn't in the past. I truly believe SE is using the level sync idea as the party mechanics standard for FFXIV. It allows anyone at any level to join any party who's level is below them. In incense you can log-in, flag up, and ideally have a PT in a few minutes.

If it's a slow time you head out to the Field of Valor, pick up some xp quest, do your killing, and get some fast easy xp that way too.

Things I would like to see changed are what quest are group based and what are solo based. Personally I felt AF quest should have been a solo affair because it's your characters main storyline, not your friends. Missions are a group must.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 10:53pm by dyvidd
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