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Rebuild the auto-translator?Follow

#1 Jun 08 2009 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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I know we all love the auto trans {Right}?

That was an example though because that means right as a direction, not asking a question.

What I'm wonder is if SE just make a text translate function similar to Google/Babelfish or just build a better auto-trans? Each has benefit and problems.

Translators are going to have the inherit problem of miss translation but should give around 70% to 80% accurate translate of what you are saying. Another would have to choose what language to speak in be it japanese, german, french, italian, engish, spanish.

Auto-Translator has the inherit problem of not having the phrase you need to convey what you are trying to say. Also miss use can create misunderstand. {May}{Bee} is a month insect instead of maybe.

Just wondering what everyone else thinks.
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#2 Jun 08 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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What I'm wonder is if SE just make a text translate function similar to Google/Babelfish


I'm sure they could attempt it. Having a desire or the spare resources to do so is another matter. Babelfish has been around many years, and quiet frankly it still really, really sucks.
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#3 Jun 08 2009 at 11:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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One big topic among Japanese players now is if Voice Chat will be implemented into the game and what role it might play. If Voice Chat becomes a big part of FFXIV, it could make Auto-Trans even more of a chore than it is now for some players. In the current generation of games, typing continues to fall out of favor compared to speaking aloud. Even when I played White Knight Chronicles with other JP players, getting anything meaningful out using the provided phrases was such a hassle and pretty much everyone ignored it. I hope they have something really innovative in store to get over that JP to non-JP gap.
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#4 Jun 09 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Default
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Ootsonati wrote:
Quote:
What I'm wonder is if SE just make a text translate function similar to Google/Babelfish


I'm sure they could attempt it. Having a desire or the spare resources to do so is another matter. Babelfish has been around many years, and quiet frankly it still really, really sucks.



uhhh, who the **** uses babelfish these days anyway. Google translate is a FAR better choice, especialy as it lets you suggest better translations.
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#5 Jun 09 2009 at 4:43 AM Rating: Good
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I've considered this before... a lot.

And there are some things that both systems can do, that the other can not.

For one, "Videogame terminology" bombs horribly when attempting to run through a translater like google or bablefish... also slang works poorly as well.

However, the Translator in FFXI, fails to be capable of basic conversations.

Having thought about this a while, my question is... why can't we have both?

Why can't FFXIV have both types of translators in one game?

...

Quote:
Hey Krisslia. I was great today. I want to thank you for asking. How are you today?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you want { Experience Party} at {Valkurm Dunes}? I can be {Tank} if you would like today.


That's what I get when I use google translator to attempt to emulate such a feat of combining the two.

EDITED because I fail at tagging

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 8:59am by Karelyn

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 8:59am by Karelyn
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#6 Jun 09 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
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If they were planning on real time voice translation, that would be pretty **** impressive. I remember reading that microsoft were working on a voice chat that would filter any bad languange in real time, but that's far off and yet to evolve into anything like this.
A real time text translator might be a bit hard too, because remember there are the german and french version too. I can't say much for french, but in German, some words and word ordering would just cause way too much confusion.

I'd guess they'll do what they've been doing more recently with FFXI's system and that is clarifying what words with double meanings actually mean

Taken directly from Aprils update notes;
Quote:
The following auto-translate dictionary term has been changed to alleviate confusion:
skill -> skill (Campaign)


That would be a good example.
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#7 Jun 09 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Decent
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automated translators are evil
I think having a preset of pre-translated words and phrases is great!
SE just need to make them more clear (like saying us that [Reward] is the beastmen JA, and not an actual Reward... "please! help me out! I'll give you pet cookies!" sure must sounds so insulting and arrogant >___> )
#8 Jun 09 2009 at 6:06 AM Rating: Good
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If there's anything FFXI has taught me about interacting with the Japanese, it's that you really have to put effort into learning the structure of their language and how they interpret things. No amount of detail in an auto-translator is going to make English completely understandable in Japanese or vice-versa without some knowledge on the user's part.

I think the best way to handle it is to just keep the auto translate system the way it is, but make the terms much more literal and transparent. Many of the terms and phrases have connotations in Japanese that aren't reflected in the English version, but they could be with less conversational and more literal wording.

For example, "No thanks" is the incorrect term to use when turning down an offer, and actually comes off as blunt or even rude if you use it that way; "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass" is significantly more polite. There's no contextual way for English-speakers to know "No thanks" is an unfeeling thing to say in Japanese, because we generally see it as a polite way to refuse something. You can tell the developers added the second, much longer phrase as a substitute, but then what is "No thanks" supposed to mean exactly?

Too many people use it as auto-complete instead of auto-translate, and these habits make cross-language parties confusing. People are always going to use "No thanks" instead of "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass" because the former is much shorter, easier to type, and conversationally acceptable. By replacing conversational terms which have cross-language connotative breakdown with more literal terms, it will promote the auto-translator as just that: an auto-translator, not a lazy typist helper.

EDIT: In response to the translate-as-you-type technology, Google already has that as part of their upcoming Google Wave and has demonstrated it using French (it supposedly supports 80 languages). Very possible, and very real.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 10:20am by TraumaFox
#9 Jun 09 2009 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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TraumaFox wrote:
For example, "No thanks" is the incorrect term to use when turning down an offer, and actually comes off as blunt or even rude if you use it that way; "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass" is significantly more polite. There's no contextual way for English-speakers to know "No thanks" is an unfeeling thing to say in Japanese, because we generally see it as a polite way to refuse something. You can tell the developers added the second, much longer phrase as a substitute, but then what is "No thanks" supposed to mean exactly?


The thing about "No Thanks" is that it even makes sense why the language barrier is there.

In English, it's like "No, but thank you anyway"
In Japanese, it sounds more like "I will give you no thanks"
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#10 Jun 09 2009 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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Elmer the Pointy wrote:
One big topic among Japanese players now is if Voice Chat will be implemented into the game and what role it might play.
It'll drive a bigger wedge between our cultures? It'll make us want to kill thirteen year olds even more than usual? It'll be hilarious to associate said female character with deep male voice, and have a plethora of Dr. Girlfriends running around.
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#11 Jun 09 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
It'll be hilarious to associate said female character with deep male voice, and have a plethora of Dr. Girlfriends running around.

It's hilarious seeing a Mithra with a deep male voice.

It's even more hilarious seeing a Galka with a cheerful feminine voice.
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#12 Jun 09 2009 at 7:24 AM Rating: Default
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Localize the servers, problem solved.
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#13 Jun 09 2009 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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Localize the servers, problem solved


No thanks, part of the draw for me was having adventures with other cultures and enjoying the game not just as an American would, but with an outside view as well.
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#14 Jun 09 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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ISystemXI wrote:
Localize the servers, problem solved.


Not an option at this point in development:

Quote:
Press: Going off of that, is it going to keep the same format currently, where all servers are worldwide, or will it be split into territories?

SE: Yes, our current plans are to have the same type of setup as Final Fantasy XI, where there are worldwide servers and cross-platform and cross-region servers. We haven't discounted the possibility of having region-based servers. It all depends on, when we have our beta test, we will find out what the players want and how things are going and look at the balance there. For example, in FFXI right now, players can choose any servers they want from anywhere in the world and we're seeing that a lot of certain players, because they want to play with people in the same region, are now going on to one server. If you look at the Bahamut server, it's packed with people from the same region because they want to play that. We want to look for a good balance in that sense.


Edited, Jun 9th 2009 10:30am by dyvidd
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#15 Jun 09 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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People are always going to use "No thanks" instead of "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass" because the former is much shorter, easier to type, and conversationally acceptable.


Isn't this something that the translator should taken into account though? When doing a translation you should take the actual meaning of the phrase instead of the literal translation. For example, the English speaking person would put in "No Thanks" and what should show up on the Japanese person's screen would be the appropriately polite phrase of "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass".
#16 Jun 09 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Not an option at this point in development:

Quote:
Press: Going off of that, is it going to keep the same format currently, where all servers are worldwide, or will it be split into territories?

SE: Yes, our current plans are to have the same type of setup as Final Fantasy XI, where there are worldwide servers and cross-platform and cross-region servers. We haven't discounted the possibility of having region-based servers. It all depends on, when we have our beta test, we will find out what the players want and how things are going and look at the balance there. For example, in FFXI right now, players can choose any servers they want from anywhere in the world and we're seeing that a lot of certain players, because they want to play with people in the same region, are now going on to one server. If you look at the Bahamut server, it's packed with people from the same region because they want to play that. We want to look for a good balance in that sense.


Looks like it might be to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having international servers. I like the influence of other cultures in the game. It's just the translate system is so lax and confining I think it would be a relief to just not have to deal with it.
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#17 Jun 09 2009 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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You'd think by now that anyone playing in a multilingual party would be able to take auto-translated conversation with a pinch of salt. It isn't all that difficult to keep in mind that general word choice can have different connotations in different languages.

auto-translate isn't there to help you with your Japanese or German homework, it is there to get the basic point across. ****, even misused translations (like the {Right} mentioned earlier) if misused enough, can begin to take on the intended meaning if used enough.
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#18 Jun 09 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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dyvidd wrote:
Also miss use can create misunderstand. {May}{Bee} is a month insect instead of maybe.

I know that combination was used quite a bit as a joke, but was there seriously anyone dumb enough to think it would translate meaningfully?

Quote:
For example, "No thanks" is the incorrect term to use when turning down an offer, and actually comes off as blunt or even rude if you use it that way; "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass" is significantly more polite.

Interesting. Sounds like the meanings were pretty well reversed between the cultures. In English, "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass" always seemed like the rude one, because it was so overly verbose and polite that it came off as sarcastic. In fact, I don't think I can remember it being used any other way.

"Need someone to solo all my avatar fights for me, can pay 10k."
"{Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}"

On the main topic, it's probably not realistic for SE to come up with its own text translator, but I wonder if they could license one like Google's. That combined with a system similar to FFXI's for game terms would go a long way toward making communication work.
#19 Jun 09 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
TraumaFox wrote:
For example, "No thanks" is the incorrect term to use when turning down an offer, and actually comes off as blunt or even rude if you use it that way; "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass" is significantly more polite. There's no contextual way for English-speakers to know "No thanks" is an unfeeling thing to say in Japanese, because we generally see it as a polite way to refuse something. You can tell the developers added the second, much longer phrase as a substitute, but then what is "No thanks" supposed to mean exactly?


The thing about "No Thanks" is that it even makes sense why the language barrier is there.

In English, it's like "No, but thank you anyway"
In Japanese, it sounds more like "I will give you no thanks"


doesn't work like that lol
you're dealing with people that turn down offers saying "I need to think about it"

and beside, there's a comma D:
#20 Jun 09 2009 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd be happy if they had just had the names of places/skills in an auto translate, but I'm lazy typer.
#21 Jun 09 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Borkachev wrote:
In English, "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass" always seemed like the rude one, because it was so overly verbose and polite that it came off as sarcastic. In fact, I don't think I can remember it being used any other way.

If I recall correctly, Sarcasm does not exist as a language tool in the Japanese language.
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#22 Jun 09 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like a little more attention paid to the auto-translate function because sometimes I really like to talk to Japanese folks. The other night I was up playing bard at like 4 in the morning (I should know better), well past when I should have been, and I met this Japanese paladin who while we didn't get along as party members, we had a pretty difficult conversation after the party (typical NA versus JP playstyles just caused too much friction, he wanted to rest quite often and the rest of the NA party was ******* and moaning for me to not stop pulling).

Anyway, we slung some insults, like {Paladin}{Too Weak} {Bard}{Too Weak} and then afterward somehow started talking about the *whys* that the party ended up failing.

His main issue was his low mp and he wanted to rest it all the time (although I never pulled when he was below 100) and my main issue was that the rest of the pt was all melee (except the sch who was doing fine on mp) and they were pushing me to keep pulling. We were actually doing pretty well, and the only death was me on the first ****** pull at the ******** gate camp, so we were in good shape.

You can't imagine how hard it was to try to express to each other what was going on through the auto translate.

THEN, after we went through a bunch of polite apologies and things because we finally understood each other, we started to try to talk about XIV. At one point he asked {Final}{Fantasy} XIV {Disband} XI and I wanted to say maybe, depending on how good the new game ends up being, but there really wasn't anything closer than {I don't know how to answer that question} and it just didn't seem right.

That's about where we ended the conversation because though it seemed like we really hit it off, it was just too hard to communicate.

Bummer. I really liked talking to him despite the difficulty. You know sometimes you just *click* with people, and that's pretty universal across all races. Language really got in the way of that friendship though. *shrugs that's life.
#23 Jun 09 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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I think that, when designing something like as auto-translator, misunderstandings and imprecisions are inevitable. The real problem with the one in FFXI is that, once SE finished the original translator, they simply ignored it, except to add new skills and areas or to very rarely fix egregious errors when the complaints got to be too annoying for them.

It'd be far better to view an auto-translator as a perpetual work in progress, and to include improvements with every single patch. Ideally, they'd find some super-genius who was fluent in English, Japanese, French, and German and make it his or her full-time job. That's probably not feasible, but there's no reason they couldn't have a few new phrases and tweak a few confusing older ones with each update.

It'd still be an imperfect system, but players could count on the biggest disparities and omissions to be corrected eventually.

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#24 Jun 09 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Default
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People just need to throw the grammar concept far far away.

It's auto-translate, It's meant to translate stuff word-by-word, not the whole thing. So chop your sentences into key words/phrases and find an appropriate auto-translate to convey the idea better to other people.

Torrence wrote:
I'd like a little more attention paid to the auto-translate function because sometimes I really like to talk to Japanese folks. The other night I was up playing bard at like 4 in the morning (I should know better), well past when I should have been, and I met this Japanese paladin who while we didn't get along as party members, we had a pretty difficult conversation after the party (typical NA versus JP playstyles just caused too much friction, he wanted to rest quite often and the rest of the NA party was ******* and moaning for me to not stop pulling).

Anyway, we slung some insults, like {Paladin}{Too Weak} {Bard}{Too Weak} and then afterward somehow started talking about the *whys* that the party ended up failing.

His main issue was his low mp and he wanted to rest it all the time (although I never pulled when he was below 100) and my main issue was that the rest of the pt was all melee (except the sch who was doing fine on mp) and they were pushing me to keep pulling. We were actually doing pretty well, and the only death was me on the first sh*tty pull at the sh*tadel gate camp, so we were in good shape.

You can't imagine how hard it was to try to express to each other what was going on through the auto translate.

In this case, "PLD {No more MP!}" is suffice. Not sure why they (you?) pick {Too Weak} instead.

Quote:
THEN, after we went through a bunch of polite apologies and things because we finally understood each other, we started to try to talk about XIV. At one point he asked {Final}{Fantasy} XIV {Disband} XI and I wanted to say maybe, depending on how good the new game ends up being, but there really wasn't anything closer than {I don't know how to answer that question} and it just didn't seem right.

Didn't seem right, but enough to give them idea that you don't know yet what will happen.

Finally, I'd like to say, as someone who can speak 3-4 languages (well 2 of which not so well in term of fluency, but good enough to do basic conversation):

We always have problem when translating something to different language. Translators have a hard time to decide whether you want to translate a sentence literally or try to find something equivalent in target language but risking losing a little meaning from the language of origin.
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#25 Jun 09 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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Vaguely related to the topic, but if it hasn't been done already in FFXI, I'd like to see the "<player> examines you" notification feature left out of FFXIV. So much drama over such a pointless little detail...
#26 Jun 09 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I honestly don't see any way to fix the culture gap, than to just localize servers and make it not an issue.

I think the cross-culture server idea is a fantastic one on paper but, sadly I'm sure we've all encountered times where you just can't get over the language/culture barrier.

I can count the times I had solid exp groups with Japanese players on one hand; not for lack of trying. :(
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#27 Jun 09 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
Kros wrote:
I honestly don't see any way to fix the culture gap, than to just localize servers and make it not an issue.

I think the cross-culture server idea is a fantastic one on paper but, sadly I'm sure we've all encountered times where you just can't get over the language/culture barrier.

I can count the times I had solid exp groups with Japanese players on one hand; not for lack of trying. :(


I party with Japanese people 90 percent of the time now. I love it. If they didn't include cross culture antics in the new game I'm not sure I'd be interested. As an aside, I think auto translator worked just fine. It was able to convey terms about partying with relative ease once you learned what set of auto translates meant what, and how to use them.

I was able to set up CoP strategies between a 1/2 japanese 1/2 na party easy enough to get the japanese people to come back and form a static with us. Other people might find it difficult though I guess.
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#28 Jun 10 2009 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Well prehaps SE should ask us for some input on what to add to the translator. Also updating new terms instead of just key words would be nice too. I know puller and tank would be nice.

As far as proper use of phrase should be the auto-trans job, not the players.

An example would be NA {No, Thanks} = JPN {Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass.}
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#29 Jun 10 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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just leave it the way it is. the only thing i want changed with the autotranslation is more SPECIFIC words translated.

as of right now its very useful when trying to get your point across.
typing in for example <p1> {main} {healing magic} {yes, please} or
{nyzul isle} 2+ {can i have it?} {paladin}/{ninja} {yes, please} {/tell} <me> works on a basic level.
everyone knows what you mean by that weither ur ***, english, or french.

the only problem i always came across tho is when u want to be specific about something. explain sata to a noob who doesn't understand english is messed.
translating words like "stand" or "quickly" or "timing" and the like would be useful.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 12:32pm by Leyego
#30 Jun 10 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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VZX wrote:

People just need to throw the grammar concept far far away.

It's auto-translate, It's meant to translate stuff word-by-word, not the whole thing. So chop your sentences into key words/phrases and find an appropriate auto-translate to convey the idea better to other people.


No, because then you end up with crap like {May}{Bee} that makes no sense. A little more thought has to be put into what you are trying to express because misunderstandings happen when we speak without thinking.

VZX wrote:

In this case, "PLD {No more MP!}" is suffice. Not sure why they (you?) pick {Too Weak} instead.


First, I did state that at this point we were *slinging insults* at each other. It's a pretty blatant insult and we traded a few of them before we started actually talking.

Second, in response to this:

VZX wrote:

Finally, I'd like to say, as someone who can speak 3-4 languages (well 2 of which not so well in term of fluency, but good enough to do basic conversation):


The bold part should have either been written as "is sufficient" or "would suffice". Which language is it that you were most fluent in?

I mean, if you are going to pick apart something without really reading the content, you should make sure that you are not in a glass house. It seems to me like you missed a lot of the point of my post and instead focused on what you perceive as my misuse of the translator and inability to communicate using "small words".
#31 Jun 10 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
VZX wrote:

People just need to throw the grammar concept far far away.

It's auto-translate, It's meant to translate stuff word-by-word, not the whole thing. So chop your sentences into key words/phrases and find an appropriate auto-translate to convey the idea better to other people.

No, because then you end up with crap like {May}{Bee} that makes no sense. A little more thought has to be put into what you are trying to express because misunderstandings happen when we speak without thinking.

{May}{Bee} is a "word-to-word chopping"? I wonder what kind of brain you have.


Quote:

Second, in response to this:

VZX wrote:

Finally, I'd like to say, as someone who can speak 3-4 languages (well 2 of which not so well in term of fluency, but good enough to do basic conversation):


The bold part should have either been written as "is sufficient" or "would suffice". Which language is it that you were most fluent in?

I mean, if you are going to pick apart something without really reading the content, you should make sure that you are not in a glass house. It seems to me like you missed a lot of the point of my post and instead focused on what you perceive as my misuse of the translator and inability to communicate using "small words".

It's not directed to you. If you ever bother to analyze the context.
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#32 Jun 11 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, to step away from the mudslinging for a second, I'd love to see the international servers again. As for the auto-translate, I think something definitely needs to be done to help people communicate. One thing I'd really love to see is a "party canvas" tool. The whole party has access to party chat AND a blank sheet of paper, where everyone can draw. The leader can restrict drawing access (so if someone's being an idiot, he can be "muted" from drawing). It can be used to set up formations -- which we already know may be a big part of battle -- and communicate in general. Eh?
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