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Game Influences, what games do you think? (Monsterhunter)Follow

#1 Jun 09 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I have been thinking about this alot. They did say no experience. Which means there is no experience. Now I started thinking of Rpg like games with no experience in them. They did state weapons would have a big roll in your development as well as the story. Also they would be keeping the job system and expanding on it. It will be different that is a given. No two FF games are ever the same for the most part and most dont even share the same style of gameplay in general. Here is a list of ideas>

FF2: This imo is very unlikely it means that you could just sit at a zone if there is zones and let a mob mash on ya for a good while zone, heal and rince repeat. I see many flaws in this system and it wouldnt require you to choose a class more or less use the abilities of a class to lvl up. You could argue if your a whm you would be using tons of mp so your mp would go up just as an ex. But I just know that the game itself had lots of problems with the system. At anyrate that was an old game and the problems could be ironed out. If you played the game you would understand.

FFIX: Alot of people are speculating this because the makers of FFXIV had worked on FFIX. So what would this have to do with the JOB system which they did state was coming back in a way, aswell as no exp. But if you equip a weapon and kill mobs for points towards your spells that are on your gear selection you might as well call it EXP. So I cant personally see this working out. Though a variant would maybe work. (this is all just speculation based on the interviews.) Though this would support the argument of weapons supporting your characters growth.

Now a title that is no where close to a FF series but supports alot of the claims SE made about development of characters. (This is a long long long shot but may actually have validity.)

Monster Hunter: Okay if anyone has played this game you should already know what I am talking about. I am going to hit every point and explain where I am coming from.

Growth through Storyline: This game was all about questing for monsters and then using monster parts for crafting items to help you out weither it would be a weapon, armor, food, you name it. As you progress you run into more advanced recipes and hence forth better armor. There is also no EXP in this game.

Weapons playing a key roll: So since there is no exp in this game how do you develop as a character? Well the farther you get the better your resources are and the better your weapons and gear get. Weapons and Armor are what your stats are based off. Every piece of armor is a vital part of your characters stats and strategy. And hence forth playing a huge role in the game which supports the statements made by the interviewee. They still had different classes Gunner, Gunlance, Spears, Hammers, Hunting Horns, and your gear was directly associated with this.

One day you will maybe use one weapon and then the next day use a different one: The way I think this would work is that one day youll use the gear based towards your whm then then if you are fighting something that requires you to use a different style of play just switch gear and wammoo instant change! Just like in Monster hunter one weapon had a slight advantage over a certain monster and so forth.

Determining Player Abilites and LvLs: This also wouldnt be to hard just look at the gear and bam you got an idea of where that character stands.

This would also combat RMT because in Monster Hunter all your material was dropped by mobs. Or farmed/mined and they cant keep you from killing crap. Maybe Nms could drop rare material so you can get some better then average armor stats and weapon stats. Heck who knows I think it would be awesome.

This is basically hitting head on and without a doubt everything that was stated in the interviews. Weapons playing an intricate roll. Character development through your gear. No exp. Storyline being important. It all hits home. Now im not saying im right and this is what its gonnna be but its an example of what it could be.
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#2 Jun 10 2009 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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a lot of information here!

out of the games you mentioned I have really only played ffix which as you said still had exp... and every other rpg i've played has had an exp system except maybe... FFX

FFX if you've played it, i'm guessing you did but maybe not. FFX didn't have EXP exaacctlly... it had AP (similar) but it also didn't have levels... you gained a sphere point or w/e every so much AP which you would then use to move accross the sphere grid or (tree) you could call it in other games increasing your stats at each node. A lot of people didn't like the sphere grid... a lot of others including myself loved it.

FFX-2: yes it had exp... it also had levels... but the JOB aspect of it was set a little differently. I realize a lot of people hated X-2... i personally loved it only for the battle system ( story was trash ) but as you played each job the farther you got using it the more abilities you unlocked by gaining points earned in battle but again... this might as well be experience... but you could chose which abilities to learn first and grow by learning prerequisite abilities, therefore changing how you played the class than perhaps someone else until obviously you learned every ability eventually. the whole prerequisite ability aspect "maybe" could be implemented... just an idea.

I dunno, convo starters... I really can't imagine how they are going to do it w/out exp... confuses the bejesus outa me... An important aspect of a lot off RPGs for me is having that lvl number there to kinda really see just how much I accomplished... not to say i won't play ffiv... i just have no idea what they are gonna do XD
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75 WHM
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43 DRK
38 SAM
37 BLM
29 WAR
#3 Jun 10 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I did play all the FF games almost all ever made except for a handfull. Anywho. There is only one problem with the sphere grid. The same problem that haunts FFII its the fact that you have to much customization over your stats and can have a WHM with possibly as much HP if not more then a war. I dont know it just seems like it could be broken to me. I guess what im trying to say is there wouldnt be much of a divider between classes. Or to much potential for broken stratagies. I think options and customization is great to an extent but to much lead way is a lack of control over the classes/jobs in the game.
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#4 Jun 10 2009 at 12:44 AM Rating: Default
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JingleHymer wrote:
I have been thinking about this alot. They did say no experience. Which means there is no experience. Now I started thinking of Rpg like games with no experience in them. They did state weapons would have a big roll in your development as well as the story. Also they would be keeping the job system and expanding on it. It will be different that is a given. No two FF games are ever the same for the most part and most dont even share the same style of gameplay in general. Here is a list of ideas>

FF2: This imo is very unlikely it means that you could just sit at a zone if there is zones and let a mob mash on ya for a good while zone, heal and rince repeat. I see many flaws in this system and it wouldnt require you to choose a class more or less use the abilities of a class to lvl up. You could argue if your a whm you would be using tons of mp so your mp would go up just as an ex. But I just know that the game itself had lots of problems with the system. At anyrate that was an old game and the problems could be ironed out. If you played the game you would understand.

FFIX: Alot of people are speculating this because the makers of FFXIV had worked on FFIX. So what would this have to do with the JOB system which they did state was coming back in a way, aswell as no exp. But if you equip a weapon and kill mobs for points towards your spells that are on your gear selection you might as well call it EXP. So I cant personally see this working out. Though a variant would maybe work. (this is all just speculation based on the interviews.) Though this would support the argument of weapons supporting your characters growth.

Now a title that is no where close to a FF series but supports alot of the claims SE made about development of characters. (This is a long long long shot but may actually have validity.)

Monster Hunter: Okay if anyone has played this game you should already know what I am talking about. I am going to hit every point and explain where I am coming from.

Growth through Storyline: This game was all about questing for monsters and then using monster parts for crafting items to help you out weither it would be a weapon, armor, food, you name it. As you progress you run into more advanced recipes and hence forth better armor. There is also no EXP in this game.

Weapons playing a key roll: So since there is no exp in this game how do you develop as a character? Well the farther you get the better your resources are and the better your weapons and gear get. Weapons and Armor are what your stats are based off. Every piece of armor is a vital part of your characters stats and strategy. And hence forth playing a huge role in the game which supports the statements made by the interviewee. They still had different classes Gunner, Gunlance, Spears, Hammers, Hunting Horns, and your gear was directly associated with this.

One day you will maybe use one weapon and then the next day use a different one: The way I think this would work is that one day youll use the gear based towards your whm then then if you are fighting something that requires you to use a different style of play just switch gear and wammoo instant change! Just like in Monster hunter one weapon had a slight advantage over a certain monster and so forth.

Determining Player Abilites and LvLs: This also wouldnt be to hard just look at the gear and bam you got an idea of where that character stands.

This would also combat RMT because in Monster Hunter all your material was dropped by mobs. Or farmed/mined and they cant keep you from killing crap. Maybe Nms could drop rare material so you can get some better then average armor stats and weapon stats. Heck who knows I think it would be awesome.

This is basically hitting head on and without a doubt everything that was stated in the interviews. Weapons playing an intricate roll. Character development through your gear. No exp. Storyline being important. It all hits home. Now im not saying im right and this is what its gonnna be but its an example of what it could be.


You made this post at another location as well, but here is my reply to it again;

So to narrow it down, according to you SE has transferred the XP, (aka level up) onto your gear and switching jobs onto what weapon you equip? The problem that arises here is that getting the gear, will that be based on drop rate? Or, as you said, taking parts from the mobs and craft them? How high should the drop rate be?

How long of a grinding will it take to get that item that will upgrade my character to the next level? What if the item drop rate is % then that means that my progression is based on luck and if someone is unlucky and don’t get the item or will get out rolled in parties he will not progress due to that ? Sound really fuc*ed up. Also if you make the gear drop rate 100%, that doesn’t solve the problem.

You need to have 2 systems for char development and item development. Have those 2 blend into each other will make the game a BIG fail in my eyes. Also sounds **** of a boring to me ;( I would have thought they would be a bit more original then that. As one often hears "Why reinvent the wheel, at least the part that works?”
#5 Jun 10 2009 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I did play all the FF games almost all ever made except for a handfull. Anywho. There is only one problem with the sphere grid. The same problem that haunts FFII its the fact that you have to much customization over your stats and can have a WHM with possibly as much HP if not more then a war. I dont know it just seems like it could be broken to me. I guess what im trying to say is there wouldnt be much of a divider between classes. Or to much potential for broken stratagies. I think options and customization is great to an extent but to much lead way is a lack of control over the classes/jobs in the game.


well obviously they couldn't use the flat out sphere grid... but i was more talking about getting AP instead of EXP and every so many AP you get a "point" to move to the next node of the tree/grid your character's current job is... it wouldn't cross over job to job like in X.

for each job you would have a different tree/grid but unlike X(where it was pretty much a set path with few branches) there would be many branches to take.
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Asurean Taru

75 WHM
75 BRD
51 SMN
43 DRK
38 SAM
37 BLM
29 WAR
#6 Jun 10 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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101 posts
I see how the sphere grid comment could work but we are still just renaming exp...ap. I think the idea would be cool though. As for the comment on this post and also how it would work. Yes I posted this elsewhere. I reposted because I wanted to bring the games influences to a different thread. The other thread was a completely different subject and I wanted people to talk about what influences they might think SE would use in the making of FFXIV.

As far as monster hunter went .... I can see your point as far as how long it would take. Drop rates were pretty average and even incredibly consistant. Most of the time you would kill a mob it would drop x amount of items to craft with (x determined on the size of the monster and how you killed it) sometimes you could break parts of the monster off. You would then be allowed to carve the carcass of the mob to get more drops. Again the amount of times was dependent on the size of the mob. Some mobs you could cut of its horns, tail, etc.

As far as the game went it was a huge, enourmous sucess and has made tons of world records, based on sales and many other things. How to incorperate it and done well in an MMORPG would be difficult but I was mainly suggesting similarities and possibilities. Nothing more. (Influences not the actual copy of the game pasted onto ffXIV) Drop rates of rare items of the mobs would have to be made very precise to where luck was about 10% or so of the issue of getting the drop. I would also think that maybe you could finish a quest chain to get the items you needed to control the time issue of getting the items you needed to craft your gear. That would make it more of a how long would it take and again satisfy the "Growth" aspect of the game through your weapons/gear and storyline.

I would also like to point out there is no according to me square did this. I dont know what the **** square is doing, Nor would I ever claim to know. Until they blantently state so. Having said that please lets turn this into a constructive post and not a "how to bash the crap out of eachothers theories and make the other look like an idiot post." There has been enough of that in this Forum alrady. SE did say their would be no exp yes the question was how they were going to go about it and they did state they would be influenced, (which is not cut and pasting ideas from other games) by other games.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 5:45am by JingleHymer
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#7 Jun 10 2009 at 2:55 AM Rating: Default
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JingleHymer wrote:


As far as monster hunter went .... I can see your point as far as how long it would take. Drop rates were pretty average and even incredibly consistant. Most of the time you would kill a mob it would drop x amount of items to craft with (x determined on the size of the monster and how you killed it) sometimes you could break parts of the monster off. You would then be allowed to carve the carcass of the mob to get more drops. Again the amount of times was dependent on the size of the mob. Some mobs you could cut of its horns, tail, etc.

As far as the game went it was a huge, enourmous sucess and has made tons of world records, based on sales and many other things. How to incorperate it and done well in an MMORPG would be difficult but I was mainly suggesting similarities and possibilities. Nothing more. (Influences not the actual copy of the game pasted onto ffXIV) Drop rates of rare items of the mobs would have to be made very precise to where luck was about 10% or so of the issue of getting the drop. I would also think that maybe you could finish a quest chain to get the items you needed to control the time issue of getting the items you needed to craft your gear. That would make it more of a how long would it take and again satisfy the "Growth" aspect of the game through your weapons/gear and storyline.


I think the problem here is there is no diversity, you need to add several layers of growth to an MMO, otherwise it will get dull and fail after a while. You will need to have some kind of character advancement alongside gear advancement. If you only take one road to achieve advancement then that road will be very narrow and in the end very boring. The idea that mobs drops items that you can craft and advance you char with is already implemented in many mmo's, but the idea that that it is the only way to advance your character with will fail.

You mentioned threw storyline as well, but that is very standard to mmo’s and already been implemented. The leveling up/ skilling up a character is one of the major pillars of an MMORPG, and I would be knocked down surprised if SE removed that completely.

The statement that SE made is that there won’t be any experience point as in FFXI or WoW, but that doesn’t rule out having a system like the license board from FF12 or any other character development system that doesn’t show actual level.

Also another problem that popped into my mind was the gear, since there is no level on the character, which would mean it’s impossible to lock a gear to a character unless you make it Bind On Pickup. This have to be true on every gear piece in the game since there is no level check on the item to prevent lower leveled people to get more powerful gear then they are entitled to. This will also limit any use of AH and also destroy crafting in all the ways that we know of.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 7:00am by Maldavian

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 8:06am by Maldavian
#8 Jun 10 2009 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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YEah well IDK anymore I think you got some strong points that I had not thought of. If anything SE is so good at keeping their mouth shut that all we cand o is speculate. =) I guess time will tell.
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#9 Jun 10 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The whole system screams SaGa to me, but so few people are familiar with or even like the series that hardly anyone is considering it. To me, it's obvious though.

SaGa is a popular Square franchise (in Japan) whose key gameplay features are: heavy emphasis on weapons, no experience points, and party vs party battles. And, oh hey, those also happen to be the key gameplay features of FFXIV (that we know so far). Many aspects of FFXI are even borrowed from the SaGa series (skillchains = combos, bunch of weaponskills per weapon type, etc.), so it's not such a stretch to think XIV will borrow even more. While the games might not sell so well in the States, they are still a top SE franchise.

In response to FF2 being an unlikely source, FF2's stat-raising system was the precursor to how SaGa works, and that evolution is much more likely to see an appearance in MMO fashion.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 5:51pm by TraumaFox
#10 Jun 10 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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TraumaFox wrote:
The whole system screams SaGa to me, but so few people are familiar with or even like the series that hardly anyone is considering it. To me, it's obvious though.


Also the first idea I had when the "no xp" speculation began, though i do hope and pray they don't go w/ saga's totally random upgrades. THAT would be a total disaster in an MMO.
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#11 Jun 10 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also the first idea I had when the "no xp" speculation began, though i do hope and pray they don't go w/ saga's totally random upgrades. THAT would be a total disaster in an MMO.


SaGa's stat upgrades aren't totally random, they are based on what you do in battle. The main problem is SaGa's stats are just weird and some of them are pointless. I could see this being refined drastically for FFXIV, and I think I gave a detailed example in another thread. Either way, stat-raising without EXP could offer an exciting new system while maintaining a similar progression system to FFXI.
#12 Jun 10 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I think in Ultima Online there was no exp either, and the way they grew was through the equipment they wore, they made a MMORPG out of it and if I remember correctly pikko said it was very fun.

Monster Hunter is ultra fun (for some people like me) where not only does your character doesn't gain any stats but YOU do! you are the one who becomes better at playing and therefore better at killing bigger monsters. Weapons and armor just make you kill them a little bit faster and take a little less damage.

I like the points you've made and hope its a mix between all the ideas thrown in here. I like the party vs party idea too. Kinda like arena in WoW (I know I know but my brothers seem to like that very much)

Another good thing about monster hunter freedom 2 was that if you liked a piece of armor you could skip the following ones by just upgrading the one you had. A set of armor lasted you as long as you saw fit.

Upgradable armor so you could dress the way you want to and still be effective would rock in FFXIV ^_^
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#13 Jun 10 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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what about the (horrible) way they used in ffcc ?

do a dunjon, if you win you get to choose 1 item that boost your stats(life, str, etc...), repeat, and repeat, untill you got all the rewards from that dunjon...

i hope that's not it, yet if fits the description of "no xp", can never be sure of what se is planning :x
#14 Jun 12 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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hahah, I was just about to start a thread on monster hunter, glad I'm not the only one. When they said "weapons based" and "no levels" I immedietly thought "monster hunter!"

considering that it's mega popular in Japan and Asia, it should be a huge influence.

though FF+MH would probably be more like Phantasy Star.


An action oriented game would also suit the PS3 console controller, it's just more fun than scrolling around with a mouse and hitting hotkeys.

Quote:
Upgradable armor so you could dress the way you want to and still be effective would rock in FFXIV ^_^


oh god, subligar everywhere

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 7:37pm by ogrebattle
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