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#1 Jun 10 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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So this thread is about how red mages (if they are implemented) will/should be added this time around. I know most of the ffxiers have no problem with the current implementation. I was a little dissapointed tho. I always remember the red mages from ff being jacks of all trades. They can nuke, heal, or stand up and fight with a sword.

In FFXI tho they were pretty much just another caster. Run around with a sword and mail on as a red mage and people would look at you funny. I wished I could have played a rdm that stodd up with the meleers skill chaining then bursting off those chains with my nuke spells and occasionally heal if needed.

For whatever reason tho rdm were pretty much jujst more casters. I think the problem was itemization. YThere was alack of good melee gear for red mages. Do you guys think it was the players? Or the items that kept Rdm from being a viable front line damage dealer
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#2 Jun 10 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I for one will pick up whatever class closest resembles the the RDM from FFXI. I don't play FFXI currently but when I did it fit my play style perfectly. I was able to dabble in all those aspects of gameplay when it the time was right, thought yeah seemed to be a little more caster heavy but I think that is something that is going to be hard to get away from as the range of spells available was what made the RDM able to fill all the different roles.
I think what happened as what happens the longer an MMO goes on is that people figured out what each class did best and emphasized it to and extreme. What probably saved the RDM from being thrown to the side infavor of the traditional jobs was it enfeebling and enhancing spells, which I would love to see back as well.

Maybe this time around along with the spells there can be a little more emphasis on a variety of skills that allow them to perform all those rolls.
#3 Jun 10 2009 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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Hmmm, red mage had a lot of things keeping them from being front line fighters. The biggest of which was Refresh+Haste cycling. FFXI pretty much demanded that the mages have refresh in order for a party to run smoothly, keeping a cycle going was a full time job and most red mages that were meleeing couldn't keep up thier cycle. Second is a lack of gear and spells to do decent damage by end game. One-handed weapons didn't do great damage unless duel-wielded and RDM spells couldn't compare to other mages in damage or healing(arguably this part was pretty fair). Finally if a red mage wanted to do both melee and casting to any decent degree they'd have to carry several sets of gear making red mage one of the most expensive jobs to play.

So basically:

mandatory buff/Debuffing cycling
sub par melee + magic damage
and gear itemization

kept RDM off of the front lines in my opinion. RDM is probably the greatest example of how SE didn't know how to manage hybrid classes when the game started. Hopefully they'll give RDM another try this time around.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 9:29pm by Kazeramix
#4 Jun 10 2009 at 8:17 PM Rating: Default
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Kazeramix wrote:

kept RDM off of the front lines in my opinion. RDM is probably the greatest example of how SE didn't know how to manage hybrid classes when the game started. Hopefully they'll give RDM another try this time around.


rdm is by far and wide the most amazingly well designed class I have ever had the pleasure of playing. Most complain because when they played the game they limited their rdm to only healing 6 man groups. Oh I feel sorry for your wasted potential.

Short of popping 1k evisceration on a regular basis I was able to solo like a blm, solo like a bst, solo better than a nin, and sub blu to take zero damage from 20 or so campaign mobs. And it was all based on my personal skill first and foremost then my gear came in at a close second. If things went poorly I had options, if things went well I had options.. If I decided that I didnt feel like dieing to Zeral jas pichuka even though I was alone I had that option. If I felt like soloing HNMs it was me vs them..

Ahhh yeah
hehehe

rdm was but a fluke much similar to the old days of bst solo. Never reproducible entirely. Butterfly wings. However definitely an example of how people will always find SOMETHING to complain about hahaha

"But I cant deal damage like a warrior QQ!!!!"

There is little doubt in my mind this will be my first choice in the new game.

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 12:21am by thorazinekizzez
#5 Jun 10 2009 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Its been years since I've played ffxi and I was talking in terms of group play but thanks for reminding me of red mages soloing HNMs. I'm off to watch some Avesta videos. :D


#6 Jun 10 2009 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
rdm is by far and wide the most amazingly well designed class I have ever had the pleasure of playing. Most complain because when they played the game they limited their rdm to only healing 6 man groups. Oh I feel sorry for your wasted potential.

Short of popping 1k evisceration on a regular basis I was able to solo like a blm, solo like a bst, solo better than a nin, and sub blu to take zero damage from 20 or so campaign mobs. And it was all based on my personal skill first and foremost then my gear came in at a close second. If things went poorly I had options, if things went well I had options.. If I decided that I didnt feel like dieing to Zeral jas pichuka even though I was alone I had that option. If I felt like soloing HNMs it was me vs them..

Ahhh yeah
hehehe

rdm was but a fluke much similar to the old days of bst solo. Never reproducible entirely. Butterfly wings. However definitely an example of how people will always find SOMETHING to complain about hahaha

"But I cant deal damage like a warrior QQ!!!!"

There is little doubt in my mind this will be my first choice in the new game.
I'll be the first to admit. I got owned. I had no idea people were doing that with them. I played back at NA launch and not much after that and I had always heard and seen them take a more backseat caster role.
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#7 Jun 10 2009 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
rdm is by far and wide the most amazingly well designed class I have ever had the pleasure of playing.

This is true. Then at the same time, it's false.

RDM in FFXI is an amazing class that actually does live up to it's name from the class Final Fantasy. It can do all of the above, which also includes melee, but it doesn't do it as well as other jobs... which also includes melee.

RDM is an incredibly balanced job... perhaps even TOO balanced. They can switch roles on the fly provided the player is prepared for it. Tank down and need a cusion? A RDM can cast all defense buffs, grab hate, and tank for awhile. Need healing? Toss up that light staff and start curing. Gotta nuke? Bust out that +INT/MAB gear and nuke. Need Melee damage? Gear up for DD, cast an enspell and go to town.

What alot of people forget (or blissfully ignore) is that what happens in XP/Merit parties, often does not equate to what a job can do outside of that situation. If your party aren't retarded pricks RDM can do alot more than just heal. I've seen RDM/BLMs do Chainspell AoE nuke massive amount of skeletons from 5-1 instead of kiting, and I've also seen RDM/NINs(or WAR/PLD sub) tank beautifully against NMs. I haven't even gotten started with being able to solo missions/quests that aren't supposed to be soloable.

As for the XP parties themselves, what alot of people don't know is that RDM can melee just fine. I myself have done it from 1-30 with DRK sub while the RDM melee craze from Composure was still going on, and my brother has done it from 50-70 before he got engrossed into merit situations. The only real time when RDM melee is really deplorable is at 67-70 when Imps spam Silence/Amnesia. So what's holding them back? It's really simple.

There's 20 jobs in this game. Out of all those jobs, only three are effective healers; SCH, WHM, and RDM. Everything else either halfasses it (PLD, BRD, COR... DNC is very close to being an effective healer however), or just can't plain do it. It's a simple case of Supply and Demand. For every 1 healer seeking, there are always 5-6 DD jobs seeking. So why invite a RDM to DD when there are a gazillion DD jobs that does it better (hopefully)? Then there's the case of subjobs allowing RDM to do just as much healing as a WHM can... actually more due to Refresh and Convert.

So really the main problem is more of a Community-based problem. RDM's healing ability is just far too valuable compared to it's melee ability. After thinking about it, as long as there is no subjobs in FFXIV, RDM as it is would be just fine... although the no subjob access would allow for RDM to gain melee buffs here and there...

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 2:02am by TerisaFenrir
#8 Jun 10 2009 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Considering how melee centric FFXI is, I have always been pretty happy with the RDM as a mage, and not a generic "do everything" character.

When I think of a "melee mage," DNC or BLU were both very well designed. I would like to see (in some form) a job like RDM. Some one who can heal, buff, debuff, and even occasionally nuke, is already a pretty complete character. I don't want to see melee ability complicate the picture even more.

That doesn't mean that there's no room for melee/caster hybrids such as DNC or BLU. I just don't want to see RDM become that.
#9 Jun 11 2009 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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I always played RDM with a Sword, I refuse to haste x3-4 Refresh...cure cure cure... cure... enfeeble? ... haste.. oh wait......

If your a smart RDM you can help your party so much more than casting
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#10 Jun 11 2009 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
While it's not the class I'm going to choose, I absolutely agree that RDM have been one of the defining classes of the FFXI series. Even though they weren't a Min/Max class in FF1, I nearly always took a RDM in my party. Theme wise, it has always been one of my favorite characters.

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 1:56am by digitalcraft
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#11 Jun 11 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would love to see Red Mages get some more melee action in FFXIV.

I was always under the impression people didn't like jobs like Red Mage in the front line due to the battle mechanics of "feeding" the enemy TP to use against the players.

For the smaller amount of damage a Red Mage would do with a weapon, the resulting enemy's TP moves would hinder the group.

If that is true, I hope in FFXIV the mechanics are different so any job with a weapon can whack away at the enemy, no matter how little their damage and it will all help. :)
#12 Jun 11 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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scotchio wrote:
I would love to see Red Mages get some more melee action in FFXIV.

I was always under the impression people didn't like jobs like Red Mage in the front line due to the battle mechanics of "feeding" the enemy TP to use against the players.

Nope, that's a 2005 argument debunked a long time ago when we realized how stupid it was fighting IT++ mobs.

Quote:
RDM's healing ability is just far too valuable compared to it's melee ability.

^That's the real problem. I'd say it'd be easy to fix too.
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#13 Jun 11 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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It was an over tuned class with so many over tuned abilities. Being able to swap gear on the fly and being able to utilize support jobs with better support than the actual jobs can themselves..

The only reason the class was balanced in any way shape or form was its @#%^ed up skill curve... Manic, speed induced, multitasking, coffee drinking, gear swapping, subbing anything to great effect, @#%^ing nightmare/gem...

sh*t like this doesn't happen on purpose.... It was a FLUKE... Just as much as bst soloing was when people still considered it an exploit way back in the day.. So close to being absorbidentently overpowered and the only reason it wasn't was because that sh*t was @#%^ing hard to do. Accomplishing things that were BLATANTLY NOT INTENDED, everyone had access to but people with the skill to do it were far and few between... @.@...

Name me another MMO with an example like that and I will have to play that game...

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 5:14pm by thorazinekizzez
#14 Jun 11 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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CarthRDM wrote:
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RDM's healing ability is just far too valuable compared to it's melee ability.

^That's the real problem. I'd say it'd be easy to fix too.
I'd think a better distribution of roles amongst the classes would help in a big way. Giving the group a benefit from having a melee RDM (a buff of some sort or a resource boost) would also be a large help. Then you'd just have to balance their damage to be somewhere acceptable.
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#15 Jun 11 2009 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
It was an over tuned class with so many over tuned abilities. Being able to swap gear on the fly and being able to utilize support jobs with better support than the actual jobs can themselves..

The only reason the class was balanced in any way shape or form was its @#%^ed up skill curve... Manic, speed induced, multitasking, coffee drinking, gear swapping, subbing anything to great effect, @#%^ing nightmare/gem...

sh*t like this doesn't happen on purpose.... It was a FLUKE... Just as much as bst soloing was when people still considered it an exploit way back in the day.. So close to being absorbidentently overpowered and the only reason it wasn't was because that sh*t was @#%^ing hard to do. Accomplishing things that were BLATANTLY NOT INTENDED, everyone had access to but people with the skill to do it were far and few between... @.@...

Name me another MMO with an example like that and I will have to play that game...


That is exactly why the job was so enjoyable and how every single job should be. It's much like how the death knight in WoW used to be. Most people complain about it but it really was the best class in the game until it got uber nerfed. I say this because it was so versatile. Like every WoW class it had three talent trees but each one was viable (unlike other classes) and not only that but there were several different ways you could spec in each talent tree and still be very viable (which is basically unheard of in WoW). It also was a job that scaled with your skill. If you are a horrible player you were a horrible DK but if you were a good player you were a good DK. The class was so well designed though that many thought it overpowered so they've nerfed the class so much now I doubt it resembles anything close to its original perfection.

Anyway, back to RDM. The difficulty of it all and the fact that you could be so powerful if you become good at it made the job very enjoyable to me.
#16 Jun 11 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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RDM is probably the greatest example of how SE didn't know how to manage hybrid classes when the game started. Hopefully they'll give RDM another try this time around.


Actually SE just didn't know how optimizing people would be. They didn't expect people to keep refresh and haste on at all time, just occasionally when they felt like the MP was good and they had been swinging their swords a while.

SE expected people to play for fun, not to be efficient. But they also designed the game to be as slow as possible for people playing it the best way. The end result was that everyone went for the best way, and "fun" was left to rot.




Basically SE needs to focus more on fun and less on buffing. If haste only improved exp per hour by 400 exp, then nobody would insist on haste cycle. Buffs sadly need to be very minor. At the same time inviting a buffer can't harm your exp, or buffers would never be welcome.

In other words party size should NEVER effect growth/hour in XIV. Killing speed should also not count OR be very hard to speed up. That is the only way to not make XIV "Best job fantasy XIV".
#17 Jun 11 2009 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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lets face it

FF11 did not get balancing right expect in the few cases. pld and nin where the only viable tanks, sam war rng and drg where hailed above all other melee's (thf, blu, rdm, drk (sometimes), mnk... MNK of all classes was looked over as a major dd in endgame parties....)

if they did then having a thf in a party would have been more common.

**** even SMN was pushed aside and made a healer.
so much potential from pulling, to dd, to buffs, to debuffs all pushed aside for the sole purpose to using u as a backup healer when no other healing jobs where seeking.

3smns in an endgame lvl party could own imps like no tomorrow. the only thing that ****** me off about smn.
#18 Jun 11 2009 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Leyego wrote:
lets face it

FF11 did not get balancing right expect in the few cases.


Well..
These are the same people who believed at some point that we would sometimes happen upon Argus while adventuring!

"HAY GUYS! we just happened to be the right level and explored this totally awesome cave one day and bam a really strong monster named argus attak us LOL! HE DROP MAGIC ITEM LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

"Woah I need to seriously buy this game guys! Did you just hear that totally amazing story about argus and the 4 wandering adventurers who were suddenly locked in dire combat! They totally didn't expect it to happen LOLOLOL"

"OMG DID LOGIC SURVIVE!!?"

"No he was the first to be slayed by a firaga 2... BUT THE REST OF THEM LIVED!!"

So yes .. I can buy into the idea that what ever semblance of balance that did occur in FFXI were merely by chance. BST was NOT a solo class after all..

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:31am by thorazinekizzez
#19 Jun 13 2009 at 12:21 AM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
Basically SE needs to focus more on fun and less on buffing. If haste only improved exp per hour by 400 exp, then nobody would insist on haste cycle. Buffs sadly need to be very minor. At the same time inviting a buffer can't harm your exp, or buffers would never be welcome.

In other words party size should NEVER effect growth/hour in XIV. Killing speed should also not count OR be very hard to speed up. That is the only way to not make XIV "Best job fantasy XIV".
Depends on what you think of as minor. I personally think buffs in general shoulnd't be used as something to keep one or two players completely busy during combat. Refresh/Haste cycles are a pain because that's all you're doing when not healing.
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#20 Jun 13 2009 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
Basically SE needs to focus more on fun and less on buffing. If haste only improved exp per hour by 400 exp, then nobody would insist on haste cycle. Buffs sadly need to be very minor. At the same time inviting a buffer can't harm your exp, or buffers would never be welcome.

Ruisu wrote:
Depends on what you think of as minor. I personally think buffs in general shoulnd't be used as something to keep one or two players completely busy during combat. Refresh/Haste cycles are a pain because that's all you're doing when not healing.

I somewhat disagree with both of you.

I don't think the RDM specifically should be a class that is too caught up in refresh cycles, buffing, and debuffing to do anything else. I think that many players had a different concept of how RDM would function in a party than how it turned out in FFXI, and that SE should probably try to make any RDM type weapon/class (whatever they're doing) fit more with player expectations. I think most players want to melee as a RDM, and I think SE should make that viable.

However, I don't disagree with the idea that there is an either-or choice on buffing aan fun. I don't agree that buffs should be very minor. I do think it would be perfectly acceptable for buffing to keep a single player busy all throughout combat, as long as that is what the class is designed to do and that is what players expect of it.

I really liked playing BRD in FFXI. I really like buffing people up and debuffing enemies down, while doing some minor support healing/pulling/CC on the side. If there was an archetype in FFXIV whose only job was buffing and debuffing, never hitting the mob and never directly healing anyone, I would play that archetype and I would enjoy it greatly. However, I don't think players that want to play RDM should be forced to do that when it seems so many of them have a different concept of RDM.
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I have two different, but not completely separate, thoughts on how RDM might be implemented in FFXIV.

1. RDM should take a page out of the book of WoW druids. Red mages are known for melee, white magic, and black magic. I think RDM should be able to be on par withe the best melee in the game. I think they should be on par with the best caster in the game. I don't think they should be able to do both simultaneously, otherwise they would be overpowered. In FFXI RDM could swap out it's role instantly with a gear change. In the very same fight you could wear the best melee gear you could or the best caster gear you could. This kind of swapping is prevented by talent trees in WoW (though recently dual specs have been implemented). Druids in WoW that want to do melee DPS choose to do melee DPS. They can cast, but they aren't nearly as good at it as other casters. They can become quite good at it if they choose to spec as a boomkin or restoration druid. This choice prevents them from being all things all the time.

2. The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none," is thrown around a lot in RDM discussion. I think many players have the expectation that RDM will always incorporate flexibility as part of its role. I think what people would hate to see in reference to my previous suggestion, is that a melee RDM spend all of his time meleeing while a caster RDM spends all his time casting. I think people expect and want a crossover for RDM, both melee and casting. So give them the best of both worlds. Let them do both activities while still choosing one type to specialize in.

The way I see this being implemented is that perhaps a melee DPS RDM doesn't just melee. He uses spells to augment his melee. Something like the en line of spells that adds elemental damage to his attacks. Maybe he also casts spells that help make his attacks more accurate or the mob weaker to his chosen element. The point is that he is a good melee RDM BECAUSE he uses spells. This way he is not overpowered, because he is not so good at spell like Thunder 3 or Curaga 4, he's not a straight caster. He specializes in spells that make him good at melee, so he is still both a meleer and a spellcaster.

The other side of the coin is a caster RDM who is good at spell casting BECAUSE he melees. Maybe when he hits a mob he draws their essence into his blade and uses it to power up his thundaga 3 spell. Maybe he uses his blade to channel spells as he stabs an enemy so that he gets increased damage from being point blank and in direct contact rather than from distance. He's still primarily a caster. He uses Blizara 2 and Cure 5, and he's not good at melee dps. But he's a good caster BECAUSE he melees.

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 4:15am by Allegory
#21 Jun 14 2009 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
However, I don't disagree with the idea that there is an either-or choice on buffing aan fun. I don't agree that buffs should be very minor. I do think it would be perfectly acceptable for buffing to keep a single player busy all throughout combat, as long as that is what the class is designed to do and that is what players expect of it.
The problem is that from a balance perspective the class that focuses on just debuffing and buffing has to have very strong buffs and debuffs to be worth the party slot. This in essence makes them a necessity instead of something that while nice to have, does not make or break groups.

Nothing personal, but that alone is the reason why I hold classes like the bard archetype in contempt. Instead of it being a mandatory refresh ***** you have mandatory buff/debuff bots, especially knowing how square has pushed the players into power-gaming through their game design alone.

Still, my comment was in the context of Red Mages. The class is currently kept busy by spammning refresh and haste while curing every now and then. That's not how I'd like to play a RDM. If the class has to offer buffs, the buffs need to be group buffs, nothing very make-or-break and with long enough a duration that they don't get in the way for the class.

Quote:
I have two different, but not completely separate, thoughts on how RDM might be implemented in FFXIV.

1. RDM should take a page out of the book of WoW druids. Red mages are known for melee, white magic, and black magic. I think RDM should be able to be on par withe the best melee in the game. I think they should be on par with the best caster in the game. I don't think they should be able to do both simultaneously, otherwise they would be overpowered. In FFXI RDM could swap out it's role instantly with a gear change. In the very same fight you could wear the best melee gear you could or the best caster gear you could. This kind of swapping is prevented by talent trees in WoW (though recently dual specs have been implemented). Druids in WoW that want to do melee DPS choose to do melee DPS. They can cast, but they aren't nearly as good at it as other casters. They can become quite good at it if they choose to spec as a boomkin or restoration druid. This choice prevents them from being all things all the time.
I personally compare the RDM to the WoW Paladin class, but your argument holds a lot of potential. I've personally felt the class needs it's roles divided by hard lines, be it stances or forms, in order to make balancing the class not a total headache.

Quote:
2. The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none," is thrown around a lot in RDM discussion. I think many players have the expectation that RDM will always incorporate flexibility as part of its role. I think what people would hate to see in reference to my previous suggestion, is that a melee RDM spend all of his time meleeing while a caster RDM spends all his time casting. I think people expect and want a crossover for RDM, both melee and casting. So give them the best of both worlds. Let them do both activities while still choosing one type to specialize in.
There'd be plenty of ways this could be pulled off. Gear and itemization could easily push the class in a certain direction. Mutual cooldowns on abilities can also get this job done. Self buffs that increase certain attributes while lowering others, and "set-up" abilities as part of a rotation would also help.

Quote:
The way I see this being implemented is that perhaps a melee DPS RDM doesn't just melee. He uses spells to augment his melee. Something like the en line of spells that adds elemental damage to his attacks. Maybe he also casts spells that help make his attacks more accurate or the mob weaker to his chosen element. The point is that he is a good melee RDM BECAUSE he uses spells. This way he is not overpowered, because he is not so good at spell like Thunder 3 or Curaga 4, he's not a straight caster. He specializes in spells that make him good at melee, so he is still both a meleer and a spellcaster.

The other side of the coin is a caster RDM who is good at spell casting BECAUSE he melees. Maybe when he hits a mob he draws their essence into his blade and uses it to power up his thundaga 3 spell. Maybe he uses his blade to channel spells as he stabs an enemy so that he gets increased damage from being point blank and in direct contact rather than from distance. He's still primarily a caster. He uses Blizara 2 and Cure 5, and he's not good at melee dps. But he's a good caster BECAUSE he melees.
I agree with these ideas. Goes with my comment about "set-up" skills and spells being required for the class to do its chosen role.
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#22 Jun 14 2009 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
The problem is that from a balance perspective the class that focuses on just debuffing and buffing has to have very strong buffs and debuffs to be worth the party slot. This in essence makes them a necessity instead of something that while nice to have, does not make or break groups.

Not necessarily. Buffers/debuffers can have their abilities scaled to equal the contribution of a party member they replace.

Let us pretend the typical party of 6 players is 1 healer, 1 tank, and 4 dps. Let's also rate each of these roles as equally important for the sake of simplicity. The 6 members together grant a total of 6 utility (1 per person). If a buffer/debuffer joins the group, say replacing a dps, they instantly fall down to 5 utility, because there is 1 tank, 1 healer, and only 3 dps, with the bard not directly contributing to anything. All the bards spells should make each party member 20% (1/5) stronger than they would normally be. So not you have 1.2 tank, 1.2 healer, and 3.6 DPS. That equals a total utility of 6.

This way a buffer/debuffer isn't overpowered. He makes a 5 person party as strong, and ONLY as strong, as a 6 person party.

Bard spells, at least when I was playing in FFXI, were too strong. Accuracy was so very important because you need it to gain tp and IT++ were hard to hit. They could even give rangers ACC buffs, which was a class largely considered to be the top DPS at the time. This made bard into something more than nice to have, but a necessity for top exp gain.



I am glad to hear that we agree a lot on what changes should be made to RDM. I personally don't intend to play RDM, but I was not a stranger to the angst they felt at having their role so drastically changed by SE from what they expected. I want RDM to be a class that people who want to play it want it to be.
#23 Jun 14 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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It is fairly obvious why Red Mages struggle to be well represented in an MMO. They are the example of an extreme hybrid... healer, magic damage dealing, and melee damage dealing. Worse, is that they are supposed to be able to do all three things simultaneously, but weaker than a pure class. That was their original inception in the RPGs.

The problem with MMOs, is that "Weaker" is generally unacceptable. Who cares that a Red Mage would be capable of casting Black Magic, or White magic interchangeably? All people really care about is that they can put through very heavy throughput. Square probably couldn't find a way to reconcile this, which is why Red Mages became "Green Mages" in FFXI

...

My suggestion? Make the entire class revolve around Double Cast from the Tactics series.

An individual black magic spell from a red mage will do half that of a Black mage. An individual white magic spell from a red mage will do half that of a White Mage. You can chose to either cast two white magic spells, two black magic spells, or one of each.

Another possibility might be a Red Mage ability that allows them to cast spells without negatively impacting melee attacks, but locks them out of using Double Cast.

That would allow them the varied playstyle that Red Mages were known for (Prior to FFXI), and hopefully be balanced to the point of being useful.

You'd basically have multiple combat "styles" you could adapt for a fight...

1. Melee and assist the healer with weaker white magic spells.
2. Stop meleeing and assist the healer with Double Casted white magic spells.
3. Stand back and assist the healer with weaker white magic attack, and damage deal with weaker black magic

4. Meleeing and attacking with weak black magic spells.
5. Stand back and attacking with Double Casted black magic spells.

What do ya'll think of the idea?
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#24 Jun 14 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Another possibility might be a Red Mage ability that allows them to cast spells without negatively impacting melee attacks, but locks them out of using Double Cast.


I like were that idea is going.

Maybe something were as you say the spells and attacks arn't as powerful as the pure jobs but a RDM can do them at the same time.
Like being on the front lines swinging away on the mob, doing less melee dmg then the melee dps but at the same time able to cast spells that don't stop his melee attacks. So the RDM wouldn't do the same melee dps as a melee dps or the same spell dps as a pure caster but being able to do both at the same time would equate to the total dps of one of the others.
#25 Jun 14 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea. Though I also like the way RDM is currently in FFXI. I really do enjoy the buffs and enfeebles RDM can cast. If they changed RDM to be more traditional and added a green mage to the game with the enfeebles RDM currently has I might just play a green mage.
#26 Jun 14 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
I like the idea. Though I also like the way RDM is currently in FFXI. I really do enjoy the buffs and enfeebles RDM can cast. If they changed RDM to be more traditional and added a green mage to the game with the enfeebles RDM currently has I might just play a green mage.

That was what I was implying.

What RDM is in FFXI is what should have been a GRM (Green Mage). Don't have to eliminate the playstyle of the FFXI RDM, but that playstyle really doesn't represent what a RDM is. Add more variety by having both playstyles in FFXIV.

Doublecast and/or "Meleecast" (for a lack of a better term ATM) being an utterly basic and job-defining RDM skill that you would be expected to use constantly, would go a very long way towards allowing RDM to be competitive as a damage dealer and a backup-healer (while damage dealing), in the playstyle that has been traditionally associated with Red Mages.

Probably would have to be something along the lines of a job trait/ability that you gain at very low levels, but unlike normal job traits, you wouldn't be able to use it as a subjob (Did they ever verify if subjobs would be in FFXIV or not?)
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#27 Jun 14 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
What do ya'll think of the idea?

I don't think it would work too well. There are two problems with the idea.

1. It doesn't address the issue of making a hybrid useful in any one role without making it overpowered through flexibility. If a RDM is exactly as good doublecasting black magic as a black is is regularly casting, then why bring a BLM? A RDM can put out the exact same magic DPS as a BLM with the option to switch over to healing if things get dicey. That makes RDM far more valuable than a BLM. The same is true of WHM and RDM. Why bring a WHM and BLM when two RDM can do the same thing, turning up DPS if need be or turning up healing if need be?

2. It doesn't let RDM melee, nor does it let him cast black and white magic at the same time. The only viable options are Double black or double white. The reason for this is spell cast time and gearing. Take for example a RDM who cast black magic while meleeing. In your system his black magic does half the damage as a BLM spell, but it takes the same amount of time to cast right? So assuming melee and magic dps classes put out the same damage, the RDM would only be dealing half as much damage as every other person in the party. He cast one blm spell for half damage and then hit the mob once for half damage, in the same amount of time a blm casts 2 full damage spells or a melee makes 2 full damage strikes. It's even less than that because he has to split his gear. a BLM can wear full casting gear, going all out for int without worrying about str. A melee dps can go all str without worrying about int. A rdm has to has to split up his stats if he wants to multi task, which weakens him in all areas.
#28 Jun 14 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I like that term "Meleecast", but agree that it might be better to have the buff/debuff spells be the focus of another class.

Another thing I like about the FFXI RDM was the fast cast traits. I think that relates a bit to what were talking about being able cast lesser spells more often.
#29 Jun 14 2009 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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@Allegory... Balance issues regarding hybrids in MMOs is a subject that I'm not going to discuss right now. That's a issue of balancing numbers. I was discussing the design and implimentation of the job.

Allegory wrote:
2. It doesn't let RDM melee, nor does it let him cast black and white magic at the same time. The only viable options are Double black or double white. The reason for this is spell cast time and gearing. Take for example a RDM who cast black magic while meleeing. In your system his black magic does half the damage as a BLM spell, but it takes the same amount of time to cast right? So assuming melee and magic dps classes put out the same damage, the RDM would only be dealing half as much damage as every other person in the party. He cast one blm spell for half damage and then hit the mob once for half damage, in the same amount of time a blm casts 2 full damage spells or a melee makes 2 full damage strikes. It's even less than that because he has to split his gear. a BLM can wear full casting gear, going all out for int without worrying about str. A melee dps can go all str without worrying about int. A rdm has to has to split up his stats if he wants to multi task, which weakens him in all areas.

We do not know how gearing will work in FFXIV, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be viable in the same gear depending on the stat system that FFXIV choses to use.

In general, game mechanics and combat mechanics are designed first; Gear, stats, and damage output are created/adjusted later in order to support those mechanics and create balance. Not the other way around.

I think you also missed the part where I talked about "Meleecast" as another option. I was suggesting that RDMs could be given basically two modes they could switch between. One that would allow them to doublecast, and one that would allow them to cast single spells while meleeing without a penalty.

If it was designed properly using this design, it would be so that RDM roughly equal in damage output whether they were meleecasting or doublecasting black magic.

Perhaps the idea of doublecasting is not needed at all. Perhaps the only thing they should be able to do is "Meleecast" and simply need to chose between either White Magic or Black Magic. If they chose Black Magic, they would be roughly equal (perhaps slightly worse "lol hybrid balance?") to other damage dealers, but also be capable of back up healing if they needed to via White Magic.

It's an idea.
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#30 Jun 14 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
@Allegory... Balance issues regarding hybrids in MMOs is a subject that I'm not going to discuss right now. That's a issue of balancing numbers. I was discussing the design and implimentation of the job.

The issue is that you idea has fundamental problems with being balanced. Shifting the numbers around won't solve the problems I'm bringing up.
Karelyn wrote:
We do not know how gearing will work in FFXIV, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be viable in the same gear depending on the stat system that FFXIV choses to use.

It's true we don't know any details, but it's not hard to make guesses based on previous final fantasy games and existing MMOs.

In general, there are separate magic and melee damage stats. Most final fantasy and MMORPGs I know of have some variation of the intelligence and strength stats. While a warrior can afford to go 50 str and 0 int, and a black mage can go 50 int and 0 str, rdm must split it up somehow to around 25 str and 25 int. The itemization for implementing the class as you suggested has certain severe problems.

There actually is a way to help fix/alleviate this.The class could utilizes talents/abilities/innates to derive some spell power from str or some attack power from int. WoW offers a very similar feature in many of their classes talent trees to help adjust itemization for the class. However, I doubt SE is really the type to implement such a system, and outside of WoW the concept isn't used much.
Karelyn wrote:
In general, game mechanics and combat mechanics are designed first; Gear, stats, and damage output are created/adjusted later in order to support those mechanics and create balance. Not the other way around.

Yes, but in your system items can NOT be balanced for RDM, not without some fancy adjustment like getting spell power from strength or melee power from int.
Karelyn wrote:
I think you also missed the part where I talked about "Meleecast" as another option. I was suggesting that RDMs could be given basically two modes they could switch between. One that would allow them to doublecast, and one that would allow them to cast single spells while meleeing without a penalty.

If it was designed properly using this design, it would be so that RDM roughly equal in damage output whether they were meleecasting or doublecasting black magic.

No it couldn't. I didn't miss the meleecasting part. Half my post was about your meleecast system, I guess YOU missed that. You're not seeing the problem. Let me try to show it to you mathematically. I'm using 3 assumptions here, but I think you will agree that both assumptions are extremely reasonable and necessary.

1. Assumption: magic damage classes have to have similar output to melee damage classes. If either magic DPS or melee DPS was inherently better than the other we'd have major balance issues beyond RDM to deal with.

2. Assumption: RDM cannot be better at magic damage than a full caster or better at melee damage than a full meleer. A black magic double casting RDM cannot be strong than a BLM.

3. Assumption: RDM's total contribution to the party has to be similar to that of any other party member. So for example, whether he does it through black magic, melee, or half and half, his damage output has to be equal to that of any of dpser.

Let's say the the black magic spell "Ice 1" does 20 damage with a 2 second cast time, this is what black mages will be casting constantly. Let's say a sword swing does 10 damage every 1 second by a melee dps like dark knight. Both have a similar DPS of 10 damage per second. Now a double casting RDM will double cast his ice spell for 20 damage also with a 2 second cast time. This makes a black double casting RDM on par with a blm. Since the double casting rdm spend all his time casting, he doesn't do any melee damage, so his total dps is 10, which is similar to other classes.

A RDM who "meleecasts" his ice spell will do half the damage of a double casting RDM. So his ice spell does 10 damage with a 2 second cast time. After that he takes a melee swing, and alternates between casting and melee. His melee swing does half the damage of a normal meleer because is a is also casting spells. So 5 damage every 1 second.

His average DPS is (10/2 + 5/1)/2, which is 5 DPS, compared to the double casting RDM doing 10 dps. You can't simply change the numbers here to fix this. IF you increase the magic damage of a meleecasting RDM then you also NECESSARILY increase the magic damage of a double casting RDM, which makes him overpowered.

The problem with a meleecasting RDM is that he can't melee and cast at the same time. When you half his magic damage to let him melee then he spends the same amount of time to cast a spell as a double casting RDM but for only half damage.

Edited, Jun 14th 2009 5:11pm by Allegory
#31 Jun 14 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The problem with a meleecasting RDM is that he can't melee and cast at the same time. When you half his magic damage to let him melee then he spends the same amount of time to cast a spell as a double casting RDM but for only half damage.


I don't think your understanding what the "Meleecast" trait would entail. It is exactly that the RDM can cast and melee at the same time.
And using your example I think it would work.
20 dmg from ice over 2sec and 20 dmg from 2 melee swings that happened over those same 2 sec, would be the average 10dps of all the other situations.

Now I don't think this necessarily has to be paired with the 'Doublecast' trait to work.

#32 Jun 14 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps the idea of doublecasting is not needed at all. Perhaps the only thing they should be able to do is "Meleecast" and simply need to chose between either White Magic or Black Magic. If they chose Black Magic, they would be roughly equal (perhaps slightly worse "lol hybrid balance?") to other damage dealers, but also be capable of back up healing if they needed to via White Magic.
As I've said before, I feel the class needs hard lines drawn in order for it to perform multiple roles. RDM and the WoW Paladin have taught me that a class that can do everything at once is always going to be inferior in the content that matters, and that it's next to impossible to make a true hybrid work in an MMO. That's why Pallies these days are restricted through gear and talent trees, but I can't think of anything that would segregate RDM roles outside of a stance mechanic, especially since we don't know how gear and stats would work out in XIV.

Other restrictions that could be used would be increased cast time or increased MP cost on beneficial spells (cures and such) if the RDM is in "melee/damage mode", with maybe a proc that makes such spells instant cast or reduced MP cost so that they can support a healer but not be able to fully shift into healer mode.

I mean, if square can make a hybrid work this time around, more power to them, but seeing recent history, my money is not on it.
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#33 Jun 14 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Let me try to show it to you mathematically. I'm using 3 assumptions here, but I think you will agree that both assumptions are extremely reasonable and necessary.


1. Assumption: magic damage classes have to have similar output to melee damage classes. If either magic DPS or melee DPS was inherently better than the other we'd have major balance issues beyond RDM to deal with.

2. Assumption: RDM cannot be better at magic damage than a full caster or better at melee damage than a full meleer. A black magic double casting RDM cannot be strong than a BLM.

3. Assumption: RDM's total contribution to the party has to be similar to that of any other party member. So for example, whether he does it through black magic, melee, or half and half, his damage output has to be equal to that of any of dpser.[/quote]
I agree with all three assumptions.

Allegory wrote:
The problem with a meleecasting RDM is that he can't melee and cast at the same time.

I think you missed the part where I said that "Meleecast" could be an RDM ability that allows them to melee and cast at the same time. As in, they do not have to stop meleeing in order to cast.

Thus if an RDM was to melee at about half the strength of a melee, and cast at about half the strength of a black mage, (or maybe 40:60 or 60:40) and the RDM was doing both simultaneously, they would be doing half magic damage, half melee damage, and be equal to the melee damage dealers and magic damage dealers.

Using the numbers from your example...

Black Mage = 20 damage ice spell every 2 seconds
Knight = 10 damage melee every 1 second
A Damage Dealer is being expected to output 10DPS

Red Mage = 10 damage ice spells
Red Mage = 5 damage melee every 1 seconds

Double Casting Ice = The Red Mage would put out 20 ice damage every 2 seconds. AKA 10DPS
Meleecasting = Red Mage would be doing 5 melee DPS every 1 second AND 10 ice damage every 2 seconds simultaneously. AKA 5 melee DPS and 5 ice DPS which totals 10DPS.

...

Though like I said in my last post, it occurs to me that if meleecasting was used as a mechanic, that doublecasting would probably be redundant. It seems like you would either want the Red Mage to be able to "Double Cast White and Black Magic, but not be viable in melee" or you would want the Red Mage to be able to "Melee and cast spells at the same time, choosing spells to either backup-heal, or produce normal DPS, but not both at the same time."

Most likely, the superior option would come down to whether you view Red Mages as a class that should be capable of melee.

Quote:
Now I don't think this necessarily has to be paired with the 'Doublecast' trait to work.

Actually, you accidently brought up another point that I hadn't thought of before. If both Doublecast, and my suggested Meleecast was two traits contained in the same class, it would be broken and literally mathematically impossible to balance without one being overpowered and the other being overpowered. The only way it could be balanced, would be if there was some way to force Red Mages to wear exactly 50% Strength and 50% Magic (Not really an option).

A RDM class that was balanced with both Doublecast and Meleecast, like mentioned before... who geared specifically for magic (AKA 40Strength : 60Magic instead of 50Strength : 50Melee) would be overpowered as a Doublecaster. Doing 120% of the damage they were supposed to be capable of doing.

Meaning that it really does have to be either Doublecast or Meleecast. Do they produce all their damage from casting (0Strength : 100Magic)? Or do they produce half their damage from casting, and half from meleeing (And thus go 50Strength : 50Magic, or 40:60 or 60:40, without changing their damage output significantly)

It would be truly impossible to balance if they have both options.

NOTE: I'd slightly lean towards Doublecast as the preferred way, mostly because the spell is canonically a Red Mage ability. However, I know a lot of RDM feel that melee should be a capability of RDM... so I don't really know.

Edited, Jun 14th 2009 6:49pm by Karelyn
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#34 Jun 14 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Sub paladin and use Vorpal blade!

+ make a few macros with melee gear.
#35 Jun 14 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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As Red Mage is supposed to be a "Battle Mage", they could make it so enfeebling spells are cast onto the Red Mages Sword and then have to strike the enemy for it to work.

A bit like the Dancers enfeebling, but without the Dancing. ;)

(I always thought Dancer was a bit of a strange job, all that prancing about in battle just doesn't seem right.)

So Red Mage are still the best at enfeebling, but for the spells to work, they have to be in direct combat.
#36 Jun 14 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
I think you missed the part where I said that "Meleecast" could be an RDM ability that allows them to melee and cast at the same time. As in, they do not have to stop meleeing in order to cast.

I see where the confusion arose. You said "Another possibility might be a Red Mage ability that allows them to cast spells without negatively impacting melee attacks, but locks them out of using Double Cast." And later you said "I think you also missed the part where I talked about "Meleecast" as another option. I was suggesting that RDMs could be given basically two modes they could switch between. One that would allow them to doublecast, and one that would allow them to cast single spells while meleeing without a penalty."

I assumed this to meant meant "melee without penalty" to be the same as the double cast trait. When a RDM is double cast mode he trades stronger magic for much weaker melee, single cast mode would remove this penalty. This was my mistake.

Edited, Jun 14th 2009 6:32pm by Allegory
#37 Jun 14 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
I see where the confusion arose.

I apologize if my original post was confusing. I was mostly brainstorming and throwing ideas down into text.
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#38 Jun 14 2009 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I should have asked more question before making assumptions.
#39 Jun 14 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
1. It doesn't address the issue of making a hybrid useful in any one role without making it overpowered through flexibility. If a RDM is exactly as good doublecasting black magic as a black is is regularly casting, then why bring a BLM? A RDM can put out the exact same magic DPS as a BLM with the option to switch over to healing if things get dicey. That makes RDM far more valuable than a BLM. The same is true of WHM and RDM. Why bring a WHM and BLM when two RDM can do the same thing, turning up DPS if need be or turning up healing if need be?


I don't think that is a very good point to make. I mean...why would one take a MNK if a DRG does as much damage? There are tons damage dealing jobs that all do about the same amount of damage and yet do you see everyone picking RNG every single time? Or DRK? If we all were concerned about one job being picked over another there would only be 3 jobs a tank, healer and damage dealer. There are plenty of hybrids in WoW that heal/tank/dd just as well as any other class but you don't see a shadow priest being picked over a mage just because it's a hybrid. It's just a very poor argument.
#40 Jun 14 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
I don't think that is a very good point to make. I mean...why would one take a MNK if a DRG does as much damage? There are tons damage dealing jobs that all do about the same amount of damage and yet do you see everyone picking RNG every single time? Or DRK? If we all were concerned about one job being picked over another there would only be 3 jobs a tank, healer and damage dealer. There are plenty of hybrids in WoW that heal/tank/dd just as well as any other class but you don't see a shadow priest being picked over a mage just because it's a hybrid. It's just a very poor argument.


MNK, DRG, RNG, and DRK don't have this problem. They are equal in DPS, but none of them fulfills another role equally well. If a Monk could DPS as well as other DPS classes and tank as well as a paladin then why would anyone take DRG over MNK? MNK would do just as much damage, but if it happened to pull hate then there'd be no problem.

WoW avoids the issue in two ways. First a hybrid like druid or paladin can't be all things at all times. A druid can do great melee DPS, and I think they are actually topping melee DPS in the current raid scene, but they're can shift out can instantly start doing top spell damage. They specced for melee dps, and so while they can do healing or magic damage it's not going to be nearly as good as a class built for it or a druid specced in it. Paladin are the same way. A protection paladin CAN heal, but a holy paladin is much better at it.

Secondly, WoW uses buffs, debuffs or other systems to give hybrids utility. Shadow priests don't simply DPS, they're mana batteries for the group as well.
#41 Jun 14 2009 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
[quote=Yogtheterrible]WoW avoids the issue in two ways. First a hybrid like druid or paladin can't be all things at all times. A druid can do great melee DPS, and I think they are actually topping melee DPS in the current raid scene, but they're can shift out can instantly start doing top spell damage. They specced for melee dps, and so while they can do healing or magic damage it's not going to be nearly as good as a class built for it or a druid specced in it. Paladin are the same way. A protection paladin CAN heal, but a holy paladin is much better at it.

Secondly, WoW uses buffs, debuffs or other systems to give hybrids utility. Shadow priests don't simply DPS, they're mana batteries for the group as well.


Exactly. RDM might be a hybrid you might want BLM instead for a host of reasons and a RDM still can't deal damage and heal at 100% effectiveness all the time. Respecing isn't nearly the barrier you make it to be. In fact it happens often in raids where a holy pally might need to switch to prot for a specific battle.
#42 Jun 14 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Exactly. RDM might be a hybrid you might want BLM instead for a host of reasons

But so far no one has said that. If you want to include utility beyond simple damage dealing and healing then great, but you have to say so explicitly.
Yogtheterrible wrote:
and a RDM still can't deal damage and heal at 100% effectiveness all the time.

That is not the point. The point is that the RDM can do either equally well at any time.

If you need need a magic dpser for your party you would have a choice between BLM or RDM. In the given example both are equally effective at this role and are really clones of each other. As long as you need only magic dps then they are both equal. However, if you get an extra addor perhaps your main healer lags out then the RDM could switch to healing on the fly while the BLM cannot. This give the RDM far greater usefulness to the party than a BLM. There needs to be some friction to keep RDM from being the best at everything all the time.

No a RDM can't do both at the same time, but he could do either as well as anyone which is a problem.
Yogtheterrible wrote:
Respecing isn't nearly the barrier you make it to be. In fact it happens often in raids where a holy pally might need to switch to prot for a specific battle.

But you can't respec in the middle of a fight. If your resto druid goes down in a fight a ret paladin can't instantly swap over to holy and take over healing mid fight.
#43 Jun 14 2009 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
[quote=Yogtheterrible]
But so far no one has said that. If you want to include utility beyond simple damage dealing and healing then great, but you have to say so explicitly.


Ah, but the ability to heal as well as damage would be the RDMs utility. It wouldn't be a good comparison to compare one job (RDM) with its utility to another job (BLM) without its utility.
#44 Jun 14 2009 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
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From what SE has done with XI over the past few years, I think they're getting better at designing hybrid classes. COR, BLU, and DNC are all great examples of how hybrid classes can be made effective.

COR's buffing abilities are instant cast, with a long recast timer, to ensure they aren't locked into support full time. Then, they are given access to good DD weapons and equipment which make it worthwhile to perform a non-support role.

Most of BLU's spells are very short casting, with very short range, meaning they have to be up in the frontline. Also, many of their spells get bonuses based on the tp they have, so their melee actually enhances their spellcasting.

DNC also has instant support abilities, combined with the fact that their abilities are fueled by their meleeing.


What about RDM? Their spells all take significant amounts of time to cast, and they have to cast support spells multiple times. Also, melee does nothing for casting abilities. RDM in FFXI was designed for either/or, while the above 3 hybrids were designed to do both at the same time. This, I think is the biggest issue people have with XI's incarnation of RDM.

If SE wants a RDM to truly make use of its entire skill set, then it needs to design it that way. It needs spells to enhance it's melee, or melee to enhance its spells, or something to encourage both aspects to be used, rather than restrictions to one, when the other is in use.



Personally, I hope SE scraps RDM and restructures it completely in XIV.
#45 Jun 16 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Default
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Rdm was Godly wen it came to mages in my opinion...i liked that it always had a bit of both worlds, white and black magic. Rdm/nin was always a hot topic in my ls back in the day, Ive seen them do some incredible things. I think SE did a great job with RDM it was a character that was average at everything rather than just superb at one thing....I hope they remember that for ffxiv.
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