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#52 Jun 11 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
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I'm actually more than a little surprised at the hostility toward jumping. Back when I played FFXI (way back) I always thought most people either wanted jumping or were agnostic about the idea.


Yea then along came wow and ten year olds.... honestly for the more mature gaming audience this issue (Bunny Hopping) can be quite make or break... Its one of the reasons I left WoW and stuck with FFXI. Being over ... thirty its a bit annoying to be standing at an auction house an having some moron just bounding endlessly for absolutly no reason... seriously

Edited.. Page claim.

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 6:23pm by YashasThoughts
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#53 Jun 11 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I say, why not, I would definitely use it because I like to explore the world these guys spent hours making. I am the guy that you will see scaling mountains not usually scaled in games like WoW, WAR, and Oblivion, because I like finding random things that I know few others will take the time to explore. It makes me more attached to the game because I know that If I can find this thing, post it somewhere, and have responses like "Where did you find that?" I will be a happy camper to know that I went through the trouble to find it, and it was appreciated. Sure I sometimes find those spots where you fall off into nothingness, but with a feature like a hearthstone, or Book of Binding, You will always have that to get you out. let the 30 min -1 hour cooldown be your punishment for finding that place, and do be an idiot and go back"

"I find jumping annoying"
I find babies crying annoying, but I don't go up to the parents and say "Can I please kick your baby? He is rather loud"
Everyone finds annoyances, It is called "coping" which bluntly means, shut up and quit whining.

I remember when my friend first introduced me to FinalFantasy XI. I started in Sandoria, went outside to kill some things, and these puny little hills were making me walk 500 feet away in an already slow walking pace game. That turns customers away, especially in the Modern MMO "standard"

"Jumping looks to cartoony?"
All I have to say to that is WTF?!?!?!
are you serious, go to your mog house and what the **** is that floating in the room? Lol you have got to be kidding me, when you say FFXI is a serious adult game and jumping would make it look bad, when I see 2 foot cabage patch wannabees running between my galkas legs left and right. I will never, EVER take this as a serious response to jumping because When I see a game where one of my most serious threats at level one was a rabbit. I actually laughed the first time I killed one. I was like, this is a serious enemy?

I am in no way making fun of the game. I enjoy the lore and just about everything about it, but don't tell me it's serious, and not cartoony, after looking at this
http://media.photobucket.com/image/Tarutaru%20and%20moogle/whitetigre_2001/FFXI/tarume.jpg
or
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/b/b8/Mog.jpg

If you ask someone, anyone for that matter. They will not say those a serious looking creatures. They will be more like "SOOOOOOO CUTE!!!!"

All in all, the positives outweigh the negatives in my eyes. Invisble walls are easier to make, the proper pathing routes
#54 Jun 11 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jumping does not a cartoony game make. WoW looks cartoony while jumping in any game is just a feature.

Since most complaints are about jump spam, all SE would have to do to preserve it's 'mature image' is place a short delay in after a jump. A simple animation where you would react as if you actually jumped 3-4 feet in the air (some ppl can actually do it!). A motion where gravity pulls you down and you use the strength of your legs to recover. This would also prevent jumping during battles since the after jump delay would more than likely make you pause any movement or action.



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#55 Jun 11 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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I would actually like to see some for of jumping and on top of that being able to swim, adds to immersion and makes the world feel more real to me if my character can interact with it in a way similar to the way I do outside the game.

Though jumping and swimming aren't very Final Fantasy, just going off of all the other games.
If they do put it in I see it more then likely being a slash command, there are only so many buttons on the PS3 controller and unless they use something like clicking one of the joysticks there might not be room for a 'jump button'.
#56 Jun 11 2009 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Karelyn wrote:
shintasama wrote:
The better "answer" to this problem is just to do better terrain modeling so players don't get stuck on 2ft ledges in the first place.

Won't happen though. The reason they block it to begin with is due to animation issues. Do you honestly expect an MMO creater to program all terrain animations for the characters?

Well, they totally could... just considering the current MMO marketplace, they won't.
I've never had any terrain problems in the newer expansions, only vanilla/zilart FFXI, so apparently SE learned how to do it sometime.

(and never bothered to go back and fix the old stuff, like they never bothered to go back and fix that windurst waters NPC that falls through the floor all the time. I guess I can't rule out pure luck either, but given the large numbers of stupid floor glitches in the early stuff and the complete lack in the new stuff I find this unlikely.)
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#57Obiar, Posted: Jun 11 2009 at 5:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) How many D-bags added dance macros to every spell and job ability they had after SE added it? Is that what you want? I am not totally against jumping in the game, just make it an animation that is tied to particular place or event.
#58 Jun 11 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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BrookieDragon wrote:
So many people arguing for less... I never will understand why people do this.


Because it is common knowledge that more isn't always better. Been this way for a few years now. Id say this twice in the context of arbitrary additions to games based on the jumping off Brooklyn bridge simply because all the cool kids are doing it rule.

And on that note I am going to call up the head of the FFXIV project and formally request that the game becomes "MORE BROWN" combined with heavy use of desaturated post process effects to help the game FEEL MORE MODERN!!!

Lack of color is VERY *IN* these days after all...

edit: you know what. Why does everyone want jumping? Its always about jumping.

Id simply like the ability to scooch. It helps with combat more than jumping would.
The shadowlord readies some super amazing ultra ultima 5 spell forcing the entire alliance to have to scooch over to the side just a tad to survive deadly mortal account deleting attacks.

laser beams

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:41am by thorazinekizzez
#59 Jun 11 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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if they do add a jump, i just hope that it is either on like a 5 second "recast" or simply slower than running. Jumping around like a moron looses a lot of its appeal if it is half as fast.
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#60 Jun 11 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't want Bunny Hoppers, but i'm all for a jump button that either has a delay, or a charge function, so you can't really spam it, but you can still jump.

I'd also like to see damage taken if you fall from a high off cliff (Saruta anyone?) Little things like that, things that actually draw you towards your character even more.
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#61 Jun 12 2009 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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I want the ability to transform in to a shark and fly with breakfast tables in my mouth clapping brains together with fist granite, how about a clam? Glek.
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#62 Jun 12 2009 at 1:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Concerning the jumping issue, I have no particular opinion about it, but I can understand that people are worried about bunny hopping spams everywhere.

And what about jump function being only enabled when a character encounters a small obstacle (tree stumps, bushes, logs, and steps) while running? That will prevent people from jumping like lunatics, and give a more natural and less frustrating dimension to exploration.
#63 Jun 12 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lehila wrote:
And what about jump function being only enabled when a character encounters a small obstacle (tree stumps, bushes, logs, and steps) while running? That will prevent people from jumping like lunatics, and give a more natural and less frustrating dimension to exploration.

While possible, it is unnecessarily complex and won't make any sense to the players. "You can move backwards, but only if you spin around three times first."

I can't believe jump spam is even considered an easy. It's silly that people choose to be bothered by an aspect that that has no detrimental or even significant effect. You have to actively try to be bothered by it for it to even be annoying. It is akin to arbitrarily deciding that character names with double letters like "Aasuna," or "Teelik," are annoying.

I also can't believe anyone would be more annoyed by jump spam than having to spend 15 minutes walking all the way around the map to get to the other side because you can't cross a 5 foot drop off. You'd really rather waste your play time on pointless detours than put up with people pressing space a lot?
#64 Jun 12 2009 at 2:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Lehila wrote:
And what about jump function being only enabled when a character encounters a small obstacle (tree stumps, bushes, logs, and steps) while running? That will prevent people from jumping like lunatics, and give a more natural and less frustrating dimension to exploration.

While possible, it is unnecessarily complex and won't make any sense to the players.


I disagree. Have you played any RPGs or action games that had an action button? Walk up to an object, and you'd see an emote of some sort saying you can something there. You press the button and you do it.

The biggest problem with actually jumping is it makes it that much harder to control where a character goes. It's easy to program in, but it makes it so you have to add a lot more terrain to cover if someone figures out some way to get into areas they aren't supposed to. I'd rather they put that effort into gameplay. Of course, if they add in some game play element that allows more open travel, such as flying in some way, the whole point in moot since these areas need to be defined anyway.
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#65 Jun 12 2009 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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CrimsonNeko wrote:
I disagree. Have you played any RPGs or action games that had an action button? Walk up to an object, and you'd see an emote of some sort saying you can something there. You press the button and you do it.

Yes. The difference is that MMORPGs are not platformers or puzzle RPGs. In games that have an action button that action serves a specific purpose--you need to jump to reach the next area or complete the puzzle. Jumping in most MMORPGs is largely superfluous or usually a time saver at best. It's far more difficult to give players visual cues, especially with free camera control.

Maybe it would make some sense to the players, but it would still seem incredibly odd that you cannot simply jump anywhere but these special locations. It feels odd in action button games already.
CrimsonNeko wrote:
The biggest problem with actually jumping is it makes it that much harder to control where a character goes. It's easy to program in, but it makes it so you have to add a lot more terrain to cover if someone figures out some way to get into areas they aren't supposed to

While the first part is true, it is also mostly a non issue. The majority of places players glitch into do not affect gameplay and offer no form of exploitation. The majority of the time the character simply sees undeveloped areas of the map. I don't even see a real need to fix that, and consider it more of an easter egg for players than a type of exploitation.

It is also incredibly easy to fix if the developers really wanted to. Simply put hard walls around the zone. In WoW, Lotro, and Warhammer the developers opted for soft limits. Mountainous terrain that was supposed to be impassable. This was a decision to improve player immersion, because you didn't feel like you were artificially blocked off from an area. You could reach it, but it was simply too difficult for your character to "climb." However, sometimes mistakes were made and players found ways to climb up what was supposed to be unclimbable. Hard walls that are completely impassable (the kind at the edge of 5 foot drop offs in FFXI) would entirely prevent players from going where developers don't want them to go, at the possible expense of immersion.

It is a trivial problem with an equally trivial solution. There is no significant problem involving jumping.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 5:31am by Allegory
#66 Jun 12 2009 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
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I'm pro jumping.

They could add fatigue to avoid people bunny jumping around all the time.
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#67 Jun 12 2009 at 4:18 AM Rating: Good
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insanekangaroo wrote:
They could add fatigue to avoid people bunny jumping around all the time.

A recast timer was mentioned earlier, but I failed to acknowledge it. This is a very sensible way--far better than action button sequences--to prevent constant jumping from players. However, I do still believe it is completely unnecessary to prohibit players from doing so.
#68 Jun 12 2009 at 4:22 AM Rating: Default
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If people demand being able to jump around, then I demand being able to dig holes, kick rocks, walk on my hands, slide down railings on stairs and numerous other trivial things. Only makes sense right?
#69 Jun 12 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
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How come a trivial feature like this gets to page 2?

I bet some people won't play the game it if -doesn't- have jumping. Epic.
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#70 Jun 12 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
Only makes sense right?

Not really, no. Jumping, if implemented functionally and not merely cosmetically, allows players to bypass trivial terrain obstacles that makes no sense as to why a player could not normally pass them. "Really? I can't hop a 2 foot tall fence? I have to spend 20 minutes walking around to the other side?"

Digging holes, kicking rocks, walking on your hands, and sliding down stairs serve no functional purpose. If by chance they happened to, then I would be in favor of implementing them as well.
#71 Jun 12 2009 at 4:28 AM Rating: Default
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I think I agree with the people who don't want it cuz people will likely spam it alot. In WoW it really does ruin the atmosphere, but then again WoWs atmosphere is nothing like FFXIs, too cartoony.
I'd definitely like a swim function though, imagining underwater environments in FFs MMO graphics...wow. Plus it bugged me in XI that you could barely walk through puddles, at least make it so you can wade through water at chest height or something.
#72 Jun 12 2009 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
How come a trivial feature like this gets to page 2?

Because it's a small changes that could eliminate a huge amount of annoyance in the game. There ARE incredibly long, annoying, and pointless detours in FFXI that could easily avoided if some sort of jump function was enabled. Maybe you like wasting your time, but most players don't.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 7:29am by Allegory
#73 Jun 12 2009 at 4:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Digging holes, kicking rocks, walking on your hands, and sliding down stairs serve no functional purpose. If by chance they happened to, then I would be in favor of implementing them as well.


Dig a hole to collect water? Kick a rock to test for hidden walls (crawler's nest)? Walk on hands in order to build strength? Slide down railings in order to minimalise wasted time having to run down the stairs? Each has a function.

Also another solution to your dilemma of being overcome by a tiny ledge could be simply to not have them there. Or rather if you run at a wall for X seconds, you auto climb it if it is below Y height. Still find a way to bypass them without having to resort to a simple jump function. Even the cool down on jump is a great idea. However I can see that as soon as it is implemented people will be going "There are ledges here that I need to jump up but unfortunately it takes too long since I have to wait after each jump to cooldown"

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:44pm by Feyted
#74 Jun 12 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Because it's a small changes that could eliminate a huge amount of annoyance in the game. There ARE incredibly long, annoying, and pointless detours in FFXI that could easily avoided if some sort of jump function was enabled. Maybe you like wasting your time, but most players don't.


I doubt SE would add them if their purpose wasn't to stop the player from progressing. And if it wasn't the case they could just Not make it so there are detours in general.

Only place I would need to jump in XI would be the ordelle's caves stairs that bug the **** out of me, but is that a reason enough to implement jumping when they could just fix the terrain? No.
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#75 Jun 12 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Feyted wrote:
Dig a hole to collect water? Kick a rock to test for hidden walls (crawler's nest)? Walk on hands in order to build strength? Slide down railings in order to minimalise wasted time having to run down the stairs? Each has a function.

I don't think you quite understand what I meant. See, if jumping was allowed, then players could ignore 10-30 minute pointless detours. That is a rather significant gain.

What does water do in the game that you need to dig for it? Is it a mater crafting ingredient? Does it regen mp?

How does kicking a rock to test for walls do anything you cannot already do, and how does it do it better? It seems far more effective to simply run alongside a wall at an angle than to stop and aim a kick animation at a very specific spot. How do players benefit from this at all?

Building strength by walking on your hands? So you actually increase your character's strength stat? Is there a cap to the amount of strength you gain this way? Do you really consider this a good way to have characters level up a stat?

How much time do players spend on stairs that this would be a worthwhile action to have? How significant is the time saved?



I suppose it is my fault for failing to specify, but when I said "has a function," I thought it was obvious that I meant a function that was significantly effective over the alternative, something that wasn't a pointless duplicate.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 8:07am by Allegory
#76 Jun 12 2009 at 4:58 AM Rating: Default
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Over an action that can save time but ruin the immersion into a fantastic game. I can see it can save time, but it is detrimental to the game at the same time. I for one enjoyed the flights from Jeuno to the other cities and I know alot of other people hated it simply because it wasted time. However this was one of the main reasons why I loved the game. The time spent wasn't wasted. The sights you could see and the time spent just simply talking to your ls was well worth it.

Honestly I just don't want to see people standing in front of me, jumping up and down, trying to see how many flips they can get in a row. Where is the "function" in that?
#77 Jun 12 2009 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
I doubt SE would add them if their purpose wasn't to stop the player from progressing. And if it wasn't the case they could just Not make it so there are detours in general.

I don't know what you mean by "stop the player from progressing." Did you mean "add 10-30 minutes each direction to your trip?" If so, then no, that's not their point. Their purpose was almost certainly cosmetic, and it was an accident that they became a great annoyance to players.

They could just not make detours, but they did, and like most developers they probably will in FFXIV as well. Part of the reason is accidental; when designing a region to look a certain way sometimes developers make artistic decisions without considering functionality. Part of the reason is a conscious choice to choose art of function; it's unnatural for every path to be a straight line to the destination. Winding roads make the environment seem more natural and realistic. However, they can also annoy players with extra travel time. There is a careful balance to be struck there. Psychologically must players are will to accept a vast mountain range blocking off a straight route so long as the path is not too unreasonable. However, a 2 foot tall fence sticks out as just silly for forcing a detour and tends to frustrate players.
Hyanmen wrote:
Only place I would need to jump in XI would be the ordelle's caves stairs that bug the **** out of me, but is that a reason enough to implement jumping when they could just fix the terrain? No.

It's been a while since I played FFXI, but I remember several areas where a simple jump function could save vast amounts of time. The longitudinal divides in Meriphitaud Mountains stick out in my memory. I also recall Rolanberry Fields being full of rather silly obstacles, though I'm not as certain of that region.

They could just fix the terrain, but I already answered this question after the first quote. Jumping allows the best of both worlds. Realistically designed terrain that doesn't immensely frustrate players.

#78 Jun 12 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
Over an action that can save time but ruin the immersion into a fantastic game. I can see it can save time, but it is detrimental to the game at the same time.

It seems like you're seeing the puddle and missing the ocean. I don't think I have that phrase correct, but I mean you are seeing a tiny problem and missing a much larger one.

Nothing could ruin immersion more than not being able to jump over a short fence. You don't think there is anything odd about a small lip in the road being more impossible to pass than the tallest mountain range? THAT destroys immersion.
Feyted wrote:
I for one enjoyed the flights from Jeuno to the other cities and I know alot of other people hated it simply because it wasted time. However this was one of the main reasons why I loved the game.

No one is trying to take that away from you. You can still see all the sights you want. You can still take the long route IF YOU want. Just don't FORCE EVERYONE to do the same.
Feyted wrote:
The time spent wasn't wasted. The sights you could see and the time spent just simply talking to your ls was well worth it.

For people who didn't care about the sights or whose LS mates were logged off for the night the time spent was wasted. Forcing people to wait an extra 10-30 minutes to reach their destination isn't good game design by almost any measure.
Feyted wrote:
Honestly I just don't want to see people standing in front of me, jumping up and down, trying to see how many flips they can get in a row. Where is the "function" in that?

The function is still in the ability to bypass trivial, IMMERSION BREAKING, obstacles.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 8:08am by Allegory
#79Feyted, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 5:09 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes because a few little lips here and there warrant people jumping around all day long in the main cities?
#80 Jun 12 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Default
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I don't know what you mean by "stop the player from progressing." Did you mean "add 10-30 minutes each direction to your trip?" If so, then no, that's not their point. Their purpose was almost certainly cosmetic, and it was an accident that they became a great annoyance to players.


Yes, I did mean that. As to why SE does this, I don't know. You can see it everywhere you go though. In the recent expansion the remade Jugner forest has tons of obstacles that stop you from going to where you'd wish to go, leaving only one way out. It's not a "mistake", it was intended from the start, that much is clear. They do beta test these areas before implementing them, and obvious things like that won't go unnoticed.

Quote:
They could just not make detours, but they did, and like most developers they probably will in FFXIV as well. Part of the reason is accidental; when designing a region to look a certain way sometimes developers make artistic decisions without considering functionality. Part of the reason is a conscious choice to choose art of function; it's unnatural for every path to be a straight line to the destination. Winding roads make the environment seem more natural and realistic. However, they can also annoy players with extra travel time. There is a careful balance to be struck there. Psychologically must players are will to accept a vast mountain range blocking off a straight route so long as the path is not too unreasonable. However, a 2 foot tall fence sticks out as just silly for forcing a detour and tends to frustrate players.


I don't believe they do 'accidental' things when it comes to terrain. Each zone is carefully and individually designed. Few mistakes here and there are possible, such as the rock in qufim island, ordelle's stairs and upper jeuno "invisible block", but it is painfully clear that the devs do not want us to go from the points they have blocked (you don't really 'accidentally' add these blocks to the keypoints of the map).

They can make the 2 foot tall fences 20 foot tall without a need to implement jumping, too. Saves them time, too. Good suggestion.
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#81 Jun 12 2009 at 5:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Feyted wrote:
Yes because a few little lips here and there warrant people jumping around all day long in the main cities?

When they needlessly tack on 10-30 minutes traveling time each direction, then yes, they most certainly do.

I said it before. You have to try, deliberately try, to find jumping annoying to be bothered by it. Most players simply don't care, so obviously the problem is with you and not the jumpers.

Even ignoring how silly it is to be bothered by something that does not negatively affect you in any way nor does it even significantly affect you, I've already said that there are very reasonable limits that could be imposed on jumping to prevent this. People have mentioned both recast timers and stamina. Your complaint is completely baseless.
#82 Jun 12 2009 at 5:20 AM Rating: Decent
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No, my argument is for these recast timers and the such. DON'T allow constant jumping. Honestly I prefer having the action ability but that is just me.

Feyted wrote:
Also another solution to your dilemma of being overcome by a tiny ledge could be simply to not have them there. Or rather if you run at a wall for X seconds, you auto climb it if it is below Y height. Still find a way to bypass them without having to resort to a simple jump function. Even the cool down on jump is a great idea.


Allegory wrote:
I said it before. You have to try, deliberately try, to find jumping annoying to be bothered by it. Most players simply don't care, so obviously the problem is with you and not the jumpers.


So because I disagree with people jumping around all the time, it is a problem with me? Do you try to find people constantly spamming you with junk annoying? I am sure many people can ignore them but then there are those who cannot stand it. Are they at fault too?
#83 Jun 12 2009 at 5:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Yes, I did mean that. As to why SE does this, I don't know. You can see it everywhere you go though. In the recent expansion the remade Jugner forest has tons of obstacles that stop you from going to where you'd wish to go, leaving only one way out. It's not a "mistake", it was intended from the start, that much is clear. They do beta test these areas before implementing them, and obvious things like that won't go unnoticed.

Beta testers are mostly looking for bugs. They might comment on key game design elements, but terrain design is not the kind of topic that draws attention.

It is either an accident or a stupid decision by SE. Either way it is bad implementation. Forced time wasters are very, very rarely a good design decision.
Hyanmen wrote:
I don't believe they do 'accidental' things when it comes to terrain. Each zone is carefully and individually designed.

Quite a lot of the consequences of developer decisions are accidental. One need only look to NIN to verify that.

It's not that SE was careless in designing zones, but that the team didn't look at zone creation from all perspectives at all times. They're only human. There are many times when art can overtake functionality as the primary reason for specific features within a zone.
Hyanmen wrote:
They can make the 2 foot tall fences 20 foot tall without a need to implement jumping, too. Saves them time, too. Good suggestion.

But they chose not to, probably for artistic reasons. Large masonery walls would look silly in Rolanberry fields. Fences make sense. However, this also allows the player to believe these short fences should be passable. It's highly counter intuitive for such fences to block players.
#84 Jun 12 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Feyted wrote:
So because I disagree with people jumping around all the time, it is a problem with me? Do you try to find people constantly spamming you with junk annoying? I am sure many people can ignore them but then there are those who cannot stand it. Are they at fault too?

No, because you are one of the few players who has a problem with people jumping a lot when the vast majority of players don't seem to find it very bothersome, the problem is with you. Lotro, WAR, WoW, City of Heroes, and many other very popular MMORPGs have jumping. It just isn't an issue in those games for the majority of players.

I'm not quite certain what you mean by "spamming me with junk," but I assume you are intending various forms of spam. The difference is quite clear. If for instant someone is using voice chat to spam, then there are several problems they are causing me. The first is that I cannot simply ignore the sound, assuming they are speaking at a normal volume, they drown out all over surrounding sounds. Second they impair my ability to carry out voice chat with others. I cannot hear others as well when they are spamming their mic. The same applies to text chat spam. When the text window is scrolling at 60 lines per minute, then I have difficulty reading party/guild chat and participating in discussion.

The difference with jump spam is that you are neither forced to watch it (you may see someone jump by you, but it's not as if they are jumping up and down directly in front of your los within 5 feet of you) nor more importantly do they inhabit your playing. When someone spams the chat log, then it scrolls too quick for me to read important messages. When someone spams a mic, then it becomes difficult to hear instructions from the raid leader. When someone spams my mail box, then it becomes difficult to find important trade items or auctions. The jumping of another player doesn't impair your playing in any way. It's purely an imagined annoyance. The irritating part exists solely as a result of your opinion.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 8:36am by Allegory
#85 Jun 12 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Default
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It is either an accident or a stupid decision by SE. Either way it is bad implementation. Forced time wasters are very, very rarely a good design decision.


You're right about that. So what needs to be done is for the devs to change their attitude, not implement jumping.

I'm sure we'd have a lot more of those qufim rocks and ordelle stairs if somebody didn't "beta test" them.

I also think that the consequence of adding a block to a keypoint in area is a lot more obvious than how playerbase will play Ninja.

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But they chose not to, probably for artistic reasons. Large masonery walls would look silly in Rolanberry fields. Fences make sense. However, this also allows the player to believe these short fences should be passable. It's highly counter intuitive for such fences to block players.


True.
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#86 Jun 12 2009 at 5:48 AM Rating: Decent
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By spamming, I was generally referring to people shouting non stop in the cities. As in you are trying to talk to your friends and people keep shouting so what ever your friend says instantly scrolls up and you have to scroll up to check. I know some people that just can't stand how annoying it can be (not one of my pet peeves can you believe it) and you are not forced to watch it either but take FFXI for example. You can swap your window chat to LS only but then you may miss a tell for an invite. You are not forced to listen to them but you do anyway. This is the same, I would rather be looking out into the main area of a city than looking at a wall.

And I believe you do agree with me that if a cooldown were implemented with jumping, it will still satisfy what you want from jumping as well as reduce annoyance in other players.
#87 Jun 12 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
You're right about that. So what needs to be done is for the devs to change their attitude, not implement jumping.

I don't see why. Jumping is a very effective and simple solution. Why spend extra hours on each individual zone pondering terrain layout when programing a jump feature provides a (nearly) catch all solution?

I'm not afraid of radical changes in design philosophy, but I don't see the point in trying to over complicate the issue.
Hyanmen wrote:
I also think that the consequence of adding a block to a keypoint in area is a lot more obvious than how playerbase will play Ninja.

Maybe you're right, but I do think it would be easy to miss if they weren't thinking of it as a block at the time. I bet when Meriphitaud Mountains were being built the designers weren't thinking "Let's put this giant spine and chasm below it cutting off one side of the map from the other, with only a small path between." I bet they were thinking "Let's put this giant spine in the air with a chasm below because wouldn't that look really freaking cool? Seriously, giant spine in the air!"
#88 Jun 12 2009 at 6:14 AM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
By spamming, I was generally referring to people shouting non stop in the cities.

It's good that we both agree this is annoying. It's also good then that I already established how this is different than jump spamming. It's good we can be so efficient about this subject.
Feyted wrote:
you are not forced to watch it either but take FFXI for example. You can swap your window chat to LS only but then you may miss a tell for an invite.

You are forced to listen to them. You can lessen the problem by separating windows, and other MMORPGs give you even more control over it, but you are still forced as long as you are in that window.

If I'm listen to trade chat to find a good deal, and someone is spamming trade with misc. nonsense, then I can't ignore that. I can switch to another chat channel, but then I can't watch trade anymore.

If I'm listening to party chat and a party member is spamming the window, then I can't ignore that. I can close the window, but then I can watch for important party messages about skill chain or etc.

With jumping you aren't forced to have your playing impaired. They aren't doing it directly in your face, they're doing it in the background. It's the difference between someone yelling in mic spam and having someone's music faintly play as they speak. It also does not impair your game play. This is the key difference. Chat spam can cause me to miss instructions or miss a good trade offer, or whatever example suits your fancy. Jumping doesn't hinder your play in any way. They can't cause you to mess up a spell. They can't cause you to miss an important chat message. They can't cause your computer to crash. They can't force you to jump as well. There is nothing they can do to hinder you in any way.
Feyted wrote:
And I believe you do agree with me that if a cooldown were implemented with jumping, it will still satisfy what you want from jumping as well as reduce annoyance in other players.

I still think jump spam is a trivial and ridiculous issue to be annoyed by, but I'm not so stubborn as to let a perfectly good solution slip by because of principles. A cool down is perfectly acceptable to implement in conjunction with jumping.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 9:14am by Allegory
#89 Jun 12 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally I find a stunt or an action key to be FAR Superior to a jump key. Instead of allowing people to at will launch themselves into the air they instead have action icons that appear saying what they can do and when.

If you see a bunch of boxes in a hallway and walk up to them it shows a little climb icon. when you press the action key you climb over them. This allows for wall climbing, crawling, jumping, flipping switches. Actually anything that a animation can accomplish.

It could also be tied to emotes allowing people to lean on walls or sit down by combining other keys with you action key. if I am standing in place and press action + back while my back is against the wall I lean on it. +forward and I panic!

But also applies to combat as well. If I am running forward and press action while in combat I do a quick roll or leap toward my target. Its a far more flexible and makes simple jumping look retarded by comparison.

AND you avoid people jumping arbitrarily around in town. It looks better, and if you need to climb up a ledge you climb up it not try to jump the **** thing like Mario...

Like I said before, Just because it was in WoW doesn't mean its cool..
#90 Jun 12 2009 at 6:23 AM Rating: Default
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I don't see why. Jumping is a very effective and simple solution. Why spend extra hours on each individual zone pondering terrain layout when programing a jump feature provides a (nearly) catch all solution?


Using the same methods they had for FFXI is also very effective and even simpler solution me thinks. Why fix what works? ;)
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#91 Jun 12 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
Personally I find a stunt or an action key to be FAR Superior to a jump key. Instead of allowing people to at will launch themselves into the air they instead have action icons that appear saying what they can do and when.

I've never found it appealing in any game I have played. To me it feels too limiting and scripted. It makes the game feel like one of those flash click adventures. I simply walk my character (mouse) around the screen until I find the right spot and then click.

It doesn't matter what the animation is. I could climb over the obstacle, jump over it, teleport around it, or so some bad *** 360 kick flip, it's all the same to me. I'm not actually doing anything; I'm only watching it happen. I've stopped playing a game and started watching a movie.
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Like I said before, Just because it was in WoW doesn't mean its cool..

Do we really need to go there?

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 9:28am by Allegory
#92 Jun 12 2009 at 6:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Using the same methods they had for FFXI is also very effective and even simpler solution me thinks. Why fix what works? ;)

Again, the method in FFXI was waiting an extra 10-30 minutes in each direction to travel. Again, forced time waster are very, very rarely a good design decision.
#93 Jun 12 2009 at 6:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Again, the method in FFXI was waiting an extra 10-30 minutes in each direction to travel. Again, forced time waster are very, very rarely a good design decision.


Like you said, it's a stupid decision by SE, lol. If they implement jumping that won't fix anything if the devs still think "let's make detours that waste player's time! mwhahaha!". They'll just make the obstacles a bit higher so you can't jump over them.
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#94 Jun 12 2009 at 6:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zuken wrote:

personally I don't like the jump option just because it looks silly to see someone spamming it, for all the immersion it would provide, seeing someone hopping for hours on end would kill all that immersion, personally I prefer FF games for their lack of anything routinely silly (a few comical scenes aside), that was one of my favorite aspects of FFVII and VIII


Why would you stand around and watch someone spamming a jump button for hours on end? Have you nothing better to focus on with your time in game?

Think about what you guys are saying. If something bothers you so much to see, don't ******* look at it. Pan the camera so that person is no longer on it. The fuss you guys are making over having a jump feature is beyond belief. Even in WoW it's not all that huge of a deal. I mean unless you have literally nothing better to do than watch people stand around town, the impact of someone jumping as they cross your path is so ridiculously trivial I can't even believe it would be an issue.

Jumping and swimming is in A LOT of games, online and off, and it adds to the realism of the game. I'm very sorry if it annoys you to see other people existing in the world, but that's just too ******* bad.

As far as "not seeing people jumping around in real life", I guess you don't live in a very athletic area. I see people all over town running, jumping, playing games, doing flips, riding skateboards, doing tricks on bikes, and all sorts of things all the time and it doesn't bother me one bit.
#95 Jun 12 2009 at 7:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Personally I find a stunt or an action key to be FAR Superior to a jump key. Instead of allowing people to at will launch themselves into the air they instead have action icons that appear saying what they can do and when.

I've never found it appealing in any game I have played. To me it feels too limiting and scripted. It makes the game feel like one of those flash click adventures. I simply walk my character (mouse) around the screen until I find the right spot and then click.

It doesn't matter what the animation is. I could climb over the obstacle, jump over it, teleport around it, or so some bad *** 360 kick flip, it's all the same to me. I'm not actually doing anything; I'm only watching it happen. I've stopped playing a game and started watching a movie.


Implementation is key
as always

For a system like I described above to work properly there is obviously a need to make sure that the animations are fast and coherent. That they dont take you out of the game but a rather logical and situational non pre scripted extensions to your characters navigational options. ( you might need to have triggers for some activities to be allowed )

X always == X, clearly defined by sight, clear and predictable but most of all logical. Vaulting in COD4 does not feel like a cinematic. Nor does wall running or triangle jumping in Devil May Cry. Taking cover and vaulting over objects in Gears of war never took me out of the game.

Climbing in age of conan however... Yeah I see your point..

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 11:06am by thorazinekizzez
#96 Jun 12 2009 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Why would you stand around and watch someone spamming a jump button for hours on end? Have you nothing better to focus on with your time in game?


It's a sum of small things that kill the experience, and the issue described in your quote is one of 'those things'.
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#97 Jun 12 2009 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
It's a sum of small things that kill the experience, and the issue described in your quote is one of 'those things'.

It's the smallest of "things." Is there any smaller complaint one could make?

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 10:20am by Allegory
#98 Jun 12 2009 at 7:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:

Why would you stand around and watch someone spamming a jump button for hours on end? Have you nothing better to focus on with your time in game?


There was one thing that bothered me about jump spammers in WoW and that was during raids. People get anxious and a little bit bored waiting for things to get rolling or while recovering from a wipe and it could become a distraction. The easiest solution, however, was to request that folks who felt compelled to jump around not do so in front of the rest of the group. Problem solved.

As for anywhere else (or more specifically, people who have no influence over), I agree that it's really just not something worth getting worked up over. If I'm in a city at the auction house or the mailbox or doing whatever, I don't particularly care what other people are doing and my focus is on what I'm doing. Then I leave the city.

I don't want to be mean guy, but it seems kind of ironic that people would talk about wanting a more "mature" game yet go on to say that they don't want jumping to be allowed because it bothers them. They'd rather that things that ideally shouldn't be obstacles be obstacles because at least then Flippy Joe wouldn't be able to give them an anxiety attack with his acrobatic antics. LOTRO was aimed at a more mature audience and included the option to jump.
#99 Jun 12 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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AureliusSir wrote:

There was one thing that bothered me about jump spammers in WoW and that was during raids. People get anxious and a little bit bored waiting for things to get rolling or while recovering from a wipe and it could become a distraction. The easiest solution, however, was to request that folks who felt compelled to jump around not do so in front of the rest of the group. Problem solved.


I agree with this totally, but it's not a whole lot different than people doing a /random while waiting for gather together. Besieged is notorious for this, it's just a tic that people have when they are bored and their brain needs to be engaged. That and emotes. I'd tend to think that someone jumping in the corner of my eye is less intrusive than someone spamming stupid emotes that I pretty much have to read (until I blist them)

XI has its own nuances that aren't all that different from the rest of the gaming world.
#100YashasThoughts, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 8:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There are many more than a few that have a problem with people jumping a lot.... But I will say this much it adds as much as it detracts from the game. and as i said before im all for adding it with limitations.... maybe you jump too many times in a row and your character becomes exhausted and cannot jump for 5 mins. But annoyances aside im all for jumping and even more so for swimming.
#101 Jun 12 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Default
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XI has its own nuances that aren't all that different from the rest of the gaming world.


At least these nuances are unique..
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