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#102 Jun 12 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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YashasThoughts wrote:
There are many more than a few that have a problem with people jumping a lot....

I think you're wrong. We may not have polls to prove it, but--and I repeat myself--WoW, Lotro, WAR, City of heroes, and many other MMORPGs all have jumping and it has been no problem to the vast majority of the populace. They haven't seen it necessary to do anything to limit jump spam, obviously it is a very small issue in those games.
YashasThoughts wrote:
But I will say this much it adds as much as it detracts from the game.

I think you're wrong again. It adds to the game a massive time saver for every player, an immersion improvement for every player, and an extra bit of fun for every player.

For a select few it creates an imagined annoyance that doesn't inhibit their gameplay in any way.

The scale isn't even closed to balanced.
#103thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 8:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This sounds like an infomercial
#104 Jun 12 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
you made up all of this crap

Which specific part did I make up?

The part where you can jump over tiny fences, off cliffs, and over lips to save time? I certainly did not make that up. I used jumping all the time in WoW to bypass obstacles, and I noticed how badly I needed something like that when I played FFXI.

The part where it adds an immersion factor? You don't think it massively breaks game immersion when your character snags on a short street lip? You don't think it jars you out of the illusion when you can't hop a short fence and instead have to walk half a mile to get to the other side? I certainly did not make that up.

The part where jumping is fun? It is fun to add a slight platforming element to MMORPGs. People like the tartaru emote where they jump up and down. You even complain about people who jump spam, clearly those people are enjoying themselves with jumping. I certainly did not make this part up.

As for a select few I already told you my argument. There are several games, and millions of player who play those game, that seem to get along with jumping just fine. None of the most popular games that allow jumping have any sort of limiter on how often it can be performed. If the people who were annoyed by jumping weren't in the minority they would have complained enough that it would have been changed and limited. No one has offered any sort of counter argument agaisnt this claim yet, nor has anyone offered an argument as to why the complainers are not a tiny minority. So far it stands. I'm not making this part up.

You realize saying things doesn't just make them true right? You can't just say I lied. You have to actually show me lying...

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 11:39am by Allegory
#105 Jun 12 2009 at 8:55 AM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
you made up all of this crap

Which specific part did I make up?

The part where you can jump over tiny fences, off cliffs, and over lips to save time? I certainly did not make that up. I used jumping all the time in WoW to bypass obstacles, and I noticed how badly I needed something like that when I played FFXI.


If the intention of the designer was to halt progression it will encompus jumping as part of the flow of the game. No it will not save time. It merely adds another aspect to keep track of.

Allegory wrote:

The part where it adds an immersion factor? You don't think it massively breaks game immersion when your character snags on a short street lip? You don't think it jars you out of the illusion when you can't hop a short fence and instead have to walk half a mile to get to the other side? I certainly did not make that up.


Jumping is in fact a trade off of game play vs realism. Something that is added for something other than realism or immersion. The things you list are more commonly known as DESIGN FLAW or collision bugs. Jumping does not fix these bugs it has nothing to do with them.

Allegory wrote:

The part where jumping is fun? It is fun to add a slight platforming element to MMORPGs. People like the tartaru emote where they jump up and down. You even complain about people who jump spam, clearly those people are enjoying themselves with jumping. I certainly did not make this part up.


If its not meant as part of the core design of the game and does nothing to help it can detract realism for little or no payoff. Was gears of war less fun because it lacked jumping? No because it was designed around that concept.

Allegory wrote:

As for a select few I already told you my argument. There are several games, and millions of player who play those game, that seem to get along with jumping just fine. None of the most popular games that allow jumping have any sort of limiter on how often it can be performed. If the people who were annoyed by jumping weren't in the minority they would have complained enough that it would have been changed and limited. No one has offered any sort of counter argument agaisnt this claim yet, nor has anyone offered an argument as to why the complainers are not a tiny minority. So far it stands. I'm not making this part up.


Applying a single blanket solution to vastly different situations and expecting the same positive results is the counter argument. Rather than thinking situational you are opting to go the "everyone else is doing it so that must mean its the way to enhance the game in spite of the fact that I have no idea how it will be designed or function."

The same argument can be said about flying for god sakes. Talk about a fun time saver! I can @#%^ing fly ***** jumping!

Allegory wrote:

You realize saying things doesn't just make them true right? You can't just say I lied. You have to actually show me lying...


You are not a lair you just don't believe others have valid opinions. You believe what you said.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:56pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 1:04pm by thorazinekizzez
#106 Jun 12 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

This sounds like an infomercial
you made up all of this crap.. Saves time? no.. not really.. flicking lint is an extra bit of fun too.. How are you going to tell ME that I secretly enjoy jumping puzzles?


Hmmm...look...a fence. It's knee height. Which is faster...jumping over it or running along it until you find a gap that you can pass through? I can't say I saw any reference to jumping puzzles...honestly...not sure where you got that from...
#107thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 9:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) oh hey look theres an opening in this very tall fence. Good thing I have jumping because I can just walk through this opening anyway.
#108 Jun 12 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:

This sounds like an infomercial
you made up all of this crap.. Saves time? no.. not really.. flicking lint is an extra bit of fun too.. How are you going to tell ME that I secretly enjoy jumping puzzles?


Hmmm...look...a fence. It's knee height. Which is faster...jumping over it or running along it until you find a gap that you can pass through? I can't say I saw any reference to jumping puzzles...honestly...not sure where you got that from...


oh hey look theres an opening in this very tall fence. Good thing I have jumping because I can just walk through this opening anyway.


I think you're starting to cross the line between obnoxious and absurd to troll. You may want to reconsider your approach to a lot of these conversations.

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oh hey I can fly instead! Every game is better when I can fly!


Flying is fun as ****.
#109thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 9:26 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) your right
#110 Jun 12 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
If the intention of the designer was to halt progression it will encompus jumping as part of the flow of the game. No it will not save time. It merely adds another aspect to keep track of.

But it's often NOT the intention of the designer. This can be seen in how we get several unintended consequences from SE like nin tanks or the old penta spamming dragoons. This can be seen in how other games that allow jumping DO let players bypass obstacles. You're being deliberately obtuse here. If FFXI added jumping tomorrow I assure you the developers would not make every jumpable obstacle into a 20 foot high unjumpable wall. That is what you're saying they would do.
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Jumping is in fact a trade off of game play vs realism. Something that is added for something other than realism or immersion. The things you list are more commonly known as DESIGN FLAW or collision bugs. Jumping does not fix these bugs it has nothing to do with them.

It isn't a trade off. People can jump in real life. Jumping in a game is far more realistic than characters being magically tethered to the ground. It's both an immersion benefit and a gameplay benefit. You're trying to create a false and rather obvious either-or situation.

Running into a 2 foot tall fence isn't a collision bug. It isn't a design flaw. It was entirely intended. You can run through what is supposed to be solid wood. You should be able to jump over short fences though.
thorazinekizzez wrote:
If its not meant as part of the core design of the game and does nothing to help it can detract realism for little or no payoff.

We aren't talking about realism at this moment. We're talking about fun.
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Was gears of war less fun because it lacked jumping?

Yes. It would have been fun to leap onto an enemy's face and then chainsaw him to death.
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Applying a single blanket solution to vastly different situations and expecting the same positive results is the counter argument.

That's not what is occurring. You aren't even making sense.
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Rather than thinking situational you are opting to go the "everyone else is doing it so that must mean its the way to enhance the game in spite of the fact that I have no idea how it will be designed or function."

I'm not arguing here that it is good because the majority of people are doing it. I'm arguing that the majority of people like it because the majority of people are doing it. I'm arguing that because no popular game with jumping in it has any sort of penalty, stamina system, or cast time for jumping that not enough people hate it for it to be considered a problem. This is fairly sound logic.
thorazinekizzez wrote:
The same argument can be said about flying for god sakes. Talk about a fun time saver! I can @#%^ing fly ***** jumping!

And you know what? WoW has flying mounts and people really like those! ZOMG, consistency!
thorazinekizzez wrote:
You are not a lair you just don't believe others have valid opinions. You believe what you said.

I do believe others have valid opinions. You're just accusing me of being too stubborn to accept your argument instead of seeing how your argument is flawed. "It's not that she's a reasonable person and I have failed to convince her; it must be that I'm right and she is never going to admit it!"

I believe what I have said because it seems to make pretty good sense, because others have also said that I have made sense, and because the people who say I don't make sense have failed to come up with an irrefutable counterargument.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:28pm by Allegory
#111 Jun 12 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to have to agree with Allegory. Jumping adds to immersion, it doesn't detract from it. To not be able to jump over a small fense is much more unrealistic than being able to hop it. People spamming the jump button doesn't even make it less immersive. I jump up and down in excitement from time to time (like I did when I found out this game was coming out). Jumping is a natural movement that can/should be used to take a shorter path and get over small obstacles.

I can't really think of a reason to not include any sort of jump button.
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#112 Jun 12 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
your right
Even though we have no idea how FFXIV will play and the games core design did or didn't include the concept it should be added because it was in WoW.


And LOTRO, and WAR, and AoC, and...

Quote:
Because regardless of the universe and the entire design of the game, what type of game it is I am a troll because I don't think simply blindly adding jumping into the game sounds appealing.


That's fine. I think the ideal is that you would either say, "Ya, not a fan of jumping" and leave it at that, or at least argue in a way that doesn't lend the impression that you've overmedicated yourself. You don't address issues...you confuse them. You sidestep the reasoning other people offer and either fly off the handle or embark on truly absurd tangents.

Quote:
And it saves huge amounts of time when I can jump over fences that designers had no clue I would be jumping over. Because people who build the world usually are the most ill informed individuals when it comes to player movement and how long it should take to get from point A to point B.

Sorry for being so belligerent.


If there is a purpose to an obstacle, that obstacle can be designed in a way to make it look apparent. When something that does not appear to be a reasonable obstacle (ie. an ankle-height step) blocks your movement, something is wrong.
#113 Jun 12 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
your right
Even though we have no idea how FFXIV will play and the games core design did or didn't include the concept it should be added because it was in WoW.


And LOTRO, and WAR, and AoC, and...

Quote:
Because regardless of the universe and the entire design of the game, what type of game it is I am a troll because I don't think simply blindly adding jumping into the game sounds appealing.


That's fine. I think the ideal is that you would either say, "Ya, not a fan of jumping" and leave it at that, or at least argue in a way that doesn't lend the impression that you've overmedicated yourself. You don't address issues...you confuse them. You sidestep the reasoning other people offer and either fly off the handle or embark on truly absurd tangents.

Quote:
And it saves huge amounts of time when I can jump over fences that designers had no clue I would be jumping over. Because people who build the world usually are the most ill informed individuals when it comes to player movement and how long it should take to get from point A to point B.

Sorry for being so belligerent.


If there is a purpose to an obstacle, that obstacle can be designed in a way to make it look apparent. When something that does not appear to be a reasonable obstacle (ie. an ankle-height step) blocks your movement, something is wrong.


Hehe, I’m laughing at this conversation, sorry for being so rude.
Let me ask this, if jumping is implements in FFXI, will it have any effect on the game play in terms of doing quest, levlingup or doing high end content?

#114 Jun 12 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
It isn't a trade off. People can jump in real life. Jumping in a game is far more realistic than characters being magically tethered to the ground. It's both an immersion benefit and a gameplay benefit. You're trying to create a false and rather obvious either-or situation.


I called it!
Yes!
The realism argument rears its ugly face again!!

Actually a fence that feels like you should be able to walk over is in every way shape and form a design flaw. Not a collision bug. The designer should be asked to reinforce the fence so it makes sense you cant get over it or put a ramp in front of it. Collision bug is when I get stuck on something or I can walk through it.

Anyway I don't believe I can stomach the jumping 4 feet in the air is more realistic argument again. lol... I got tired of this crap back in the old school days of counter strike when people said strafe jumping was more realistic.. For the same idea that if I can jump like mad in real life I can go faster. Proven scientific fact!

Some would say well counterstrike wasn't meant to be realistic anyway. Then the other camp would continue down the same "but this" and "but that"... It adds to game play and enhances the experience when I, as an elite soldier, can get to places the designers didn't intend or can get over a fence that looks like I should be able to get over!

I am pretty sure that FFXIV could have flying with black chocobos and airships. Vehicles sure. Jumping around ill pass unless its really a part of SEs vision and the game would fall apart otherwise. It doesn't add or detract anything to game play unless its absolutely needed for progression. IE jumping puzzles.

I also dislike vehicles that are not designed to enhance the class I play.. I didn't level a whm so i can drive a tank.

Quote:
If there is a purpose to an obstacle, that obstacle can be designed in a way to make it look apparent. When something that does not appear to be a reasonable obstacle (ie. an ankle-height step) blocks your movement, something is wrong.


those are C level bugs and should be fixed

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 1:53pm by thorazinekizzez
#115 Jun 12 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:

Hehe, I’m laughing at this conversation, sorry for being so rude.
Let me ask this, if jumping is implements in FFXI, will it have any effect on the game play in terms of doing quest, levlingup or doing high end content?



In FFXI or FFXIV?
#116 Jun 12 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
Let me ask this, if jumping is implements in FFXI, will it have any effect on the game play in terms of doing quest, levlingup or doing high end content?

Yes. You really have not been paying attention. The main point... of this entire discussion.. that has been stated by numerous people several times... is that jumping bypasses trivial obstacles. You don't have to take 10-30 minute detours finishing a quest, getting to parties, or arriving at raids.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:58pm by Allegory
#117 Jun 12 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Hehe, I’m laughing at this conversation, sorry for being so rude.
Let me ask this, if jumping is implements in FFXI, will it have any effect on the game play in terms of doing quest, levlingup or doing high end content?


Maybe not, it just makes things faster and more convenient.
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#118 Jun 12 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Yes. You really have not been paying attention. The main point... of this entire discussion.. that has been stated by numerous people several times... is that jumping bypasses trivial obstacles. You don't have to take 10-30 minute detours finishing a quest, getting to parties, or arriving at raids.


This still has nothing to do with jumping.
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#119 Jun 12 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Let me ask this, if jumping is implements in FFXI, will it have any effect on the game play in terms of doing quest, levlingup or doing high end content?

Yes. You really have not been paying attention. The main point... of this entire discussion.. that has been stated by numerous people several times... is that jumping bypasses trivial obstacles. You don't have to take 10-30 minute detours finishing quest, getting to parties, or arriving at raids.


no such examples that fit that criteria exist in FFXI. That weren't clearly intentional.
#120 Jun 12 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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I really dont get the hostility towards jumping. I must say. This attitude "If its in wow it cant be in ffxiv" Is retarded. I'm gonna come out and say it. You FFXI players hate WoW players so much? You're being more obstinate, stubborn and difficult then any WoW player I've ever met. I mean common not wanting the ability to jump because its in wow (and yes behind all your fancy arguements it boils down to you not wanting it because its in wow) thats just infantile. Grow the **** up already.

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#121 Jun 12 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with the jumping versus not jumping argument is that the recurring reasoning behind the opposition is pretty consistently: "Because it annoys me." That's pretty lousy reasoning.

EDIT: And what Mezlabor said.

1. It's in WoW
2. It annoys me

These are the two main arguments. And when you look at them this way, they do look rather silly don't they?

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 2:04pm by Torrence
#122 Jun 12 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I really dont get the hostility towards jumping. I must say. This attitude "If its in wow it cant be in ffxiv" Is retarded. I'm gonna come out and say it. You FFXI players hate WoW players so much? You're being more obstinate, stubborn and difficult then any WoW player I've ever met. I mean common not wanting the ability to jump because its in wow (and yes behind all your fancy arguements it boils down to you not wanting it because its in wow) thats just infantile. Grow the @#%^ up already.


Let's see what happens when WoW2 is announced and a "What could WoW learn from FFXI?" thread pops.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#123 Jun 12 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:

Hehe, I’m laughing at this conversation, sorry for being so rude.
Let me ask this, if jumping is implements in FFXI, will it have any effect on the game play in terms of doing quest, levlingup or doing high end content?



In FFXI or FFXIV?


I think you can read FFXI in my quote :D
#124 Jun 12 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

Let's see what happens when WoW2 is announced and a "What could WoW learn from FFXI?" thread pops.


Do you honestly think that one would? I have been on both sides of the fence, and frankly it seems that the FFXI players are far more obsessed with WoW than WoW players are with FFXI.
#125 Jun 12 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:

Hehe, I’m laughing at this conversation, sorry for being so rude.
Let me ask this, if jumping is implements in FFXI, will it have any effect on the game play in terms of doing quest, levlingup or doing high end content?



In FFXI or FFXIV?


I think you can read FFXI in my quote :D


Sure it will. Not an enormous impact, but an impact nonetheless.
#126 Jun 12 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Let's see what happens when WoW2 is announced and a "What could WoW learn from FFXI?" thread pops.


Well theres a few things I think it could learn from FXI. First not making all your old end game content obsolete with every expansion. It sucks that 3/4 of WoWs content is obsolete now and sitting there dead and dormant.

One character for everything, The Job system rules and the ability to have one character do everything is really cool.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 2:09pm by mezlabor
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#127 Jun 12 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Let's see what happens when WoW2 is announced and a "What could WoW learn from FFXI?" thread pops.


I welcome it. It could learn some things, like including more story.
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#128 Jun 12 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Do you honestly think that one would? I have been on both sides of the fence, and frankly it seems that the FFXI players are far more obsessed with WoW than WoW players are with FFXI.


Comfort with numbers, I guess. Not that I've played a lot of WoW (got to level 40 something), but every WoW vs. FFXI argument I've had has had them obsessed fanboys telling me how WoW has more cutscenes than FFXI. 'Nothing should be learned from FFXI, since it is an inferior game'. That's what I've noticed from the attitude of WoW peeps.

And basically it comes down to this: both sides have the fanboys who'd defend their game to the very end. Saying that we are worse is quite insulting, frankly.

EDIT: and honestly I think that most players of WoW who come here aren't like that, and while there may very well be more of those FFXI fanboys here who spout nonsense, the tables may very well turn if this topic came up in a Blizzard's new MMO-forum.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 8:17pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#129 Jun 12 2009 at 10:16 AM Rating: Default
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And not making things you worked hard for hand outs a few xpacs later. The friggin Dreadsteed quest back in the day was EPIC. It was blast and at the end you really felt like you had earned your dreadsteed. Now you visit a trainer at 61 and they hand it to you. Disgusting.
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#130 Jun 12 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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mezlabor wrote:

Well theres a few things I think it could learn from FXI. First not making all your old end game content obsolete with every expansion. It sucks that 3/4 of WoWs content is obsolete now and sitting there dead and dormant.


It sucks less than having the same content for 6+ years because they *can't* really make anything new for fear of **** hurting people who already finished the existing content. Look at the arguments already over the Mythics versus Relics! **** hurt, all of it.

I'm not saying dead areas is a great thing, but some of us are a little tired of Sea and Sky, not to mention the behemoth that is Dynamis.
#131 Jun 12 2009 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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It sucks less than having the same content for 6+ years because they *can't* really make anything new for fear of **** hurting people who already finished the existing content. Look at the arguments already over the Mythics versus Relics! **** hurt, all of it.

I'm not saying dead areas is a great thing, but some of us are a little tired of Sea and Sky, not to mention the behemoth that is Dynamis.


I'd have something to say about this subject too, as I find it quite interesting, but I don't think this topic is the proper place for it.. maybe should make a new thread for it instead..
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#132 Jun 12 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It sucks less than having the same content for 6+ years because they *can't* really make anything new for fear of **** hurting people who already finished the existing content. Look at the arguments already over the Mythics versus Relics! **** hurt, all of it.

I'm not saying dead areas is a great thing, but some of us are a little tired of Sea and Sky, not to mention the behemoth that is Dynamis.


It's a tough balance to be sure. I'm not very familair with FFXI content. Theres alot more new players in WoW then in FFXI nowadays tho. FFXI really still caters to their existing playerbase then WoW does. When I first started wow TBC was around the corner. TBC came out when I was level 58. Immediatly there was a huge rush to outlands and content in old Azeroth I had wanted to see I could never find a group to do. I just followed the crowd to outlands and did all the outlands stuff instead. There has to be some happy medium somewhere in the center that allows for new content without outdating your old content. I know theres a new crop of wow players whove never seen old Azeroth or Outlands now. Thats just sad.
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#133 Jun 12 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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but every WoW vs. FFXI argument I've had has had them obsessed fanboys telling me how WoW has more cutscenes than FFXI


You're lying or fight with a lot of stupid people. Nobody who knows anything about either game would claim this.
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#134 Jun 12 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
The problem with the jumping versus not jumping argument is that the recurring reasoning behind the opposition is pretty consistently: "Because it annoys me." That's pretty lousy reasoning.

EDIT: And what Mezlabor said.

1. Arbitrarily copying functionality and jamming it into a game with the notion that it will improve the experience even though we know nothing about the game in the first place. Or for that matter, jumping is a feature that is always better than any other alternatives.

2. It's in WoW
3. It annoys me


These are the two main arguments. And when you look at them this way, they do look rather silly don't they?

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 2:04pm by Torrence
#135 Jun 12 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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MMO gamers who play any mmo other then ffxi expect to have a jump feature.

This wasn't even a question in the AoC, War, Lotro boards before those games came out. And the existence of the jump button didn't kill them.

Jumping wont destroy ffxiv. Not having the ability to jump will make the game feel dated and old.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 2:34pm by mezlabor
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#136 Jun 12 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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You're lying or fight with a lot of stupid people. Nobody who knows anything about either game would claim this.


I doubt none of us here would say that, really. But with 11 million players....

It was in alla WoW forums, too, iirc.
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#137 Jun 12 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:

Hehe, I’m laughing at this conversation, sorry for being so rude.
Let me ask this, if jumping is implements in FFXI, will it have any effect on the game play in terms of doing quest, levlingup or doing high end content?



In FFXI or FFXIV?


I think you can read FFXI in my quote :D


Sure it will. Not an enormous impact, but an impact nonetheless.


So would fixing the collision issues with the geometry in various locations in the game. Actually that would amount to the same result. More polished environments with less hitches.

Jumping to fix a ****** up staircase is a bandaid solution. A dumb one at that.
#138 Jun 12 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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These are the two main arguments. And when you look at them this way, they do look rather silly don't they?


The counter arguments aren't that good, either. Seems kind of a pointless waste of a development time to me.
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#139 Jun 12 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow actually has a pretty good story... thats buried somewhere under the reams and reams of generic fetch and slay quest text. Eventually you stop reading the quests at all and wind up missing some decent stories here and there.
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#140 Jun 12 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
This still has nothing to do with jumping.

You don't see how jumping the fences/smalls cliffs that block you in Rolanberry Fields could help save time? You don't see how bypassing the crevice and lips in Meriphitaud mountains can save you time? Running around a fence instead of jumping over it takes longer. You know this. Why are you pretending you don't understanding this?
thorazinekizzez wrote:
no such examples that fit that criteria exist in FFXI. That weren't clearly intentional.

Here's how this will probably go. I'm going to give you an obvious example of a jumpable obstacle that would save time. You're going to say it was clearly intentional and that the developers will turn that 2 foot fence into a 20 foot wall. I'm going to ask you what evidence you have for this. Then I'm not sure what you will say, but I'm hoping it's good.
Hyanmen wrote:
And basically it comes down to this: both sides have the fanboys who'd defend their game to the very end. Saying that we are worse is quite insulting, frankly.

Except it's kind of true.

The Allakhazam board have a high population of FFXI players. They also have a high concentration of WoW players who were former FFXI players. There's also a larger flow of FFXI players to WoW than there is from WoW to FFXI, this can simply be said to be a product of the age of the game, just as player flow from WoW into newer games like WAR rather than from WAR to WoW.

This creates a very asymetrical typical poster. There are a lot of FFXI posters who woudl trash WoW having never played it. Many of the WoW players who would trash FFXI have played it, and they played it to 75 with one or more jobs doing end game content.

When I see complaints by WoW players it's largely what they didn't like in FFXI from the content they actually experienced. When I see complaints by FFXI players it's largely what they heard or read from another source. I realize this can be seen as inflammatory, but I did want to offer this perspective.
#141 Jun 12 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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i for one am all for jumping in RPGs - it gives an extra aspect to the game. that said, i am entirely against jumping in FPSs.
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#142 Jun 12 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Here's how this will probably go. I'm going to give you an obvious example of a jumpable obstacle that would save time. You're going to say it was clearly intentional and that the developers will turn that 2 foot fence into a 20 foot wall. I'm going to ask you what evidence you have for this. Then I'm not sure what you will say, but I'm hoping it's good.


The example can be hypothetical and it would still be true.
The level designers goal is the key here. If he needs you to go around something its going to happen no matter what. even if you can teleport.

You are ALWAYS at the whim of the designer in any game you play.
#143 Jun 12 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
The example can be hypothetical and it would still be true.
The level designers goal is the key here. If he needs you to go around something its going to happen no matter what. even if you can teleport.

Yes, but as I already mentioned at least twice earlier in this thread often times zones are designed with art in mind more than functionality. The reason there are fences and terraces in Rolanberry fields is so that the zone will look like an orchard. The fences and terraces were not placed with the express intention of blocking off the player, they block the player because it would be weird and immersion break to run through solid wood or straight up rocky cliffs.
#144 Jun 12 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
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You don't see how jumping the fences/smalls cliffs that block you in Rolanberry Fields could help save time? You don't see how bypassing the crevice and lips in Meriphitaud mountains can save you time? Running around a fence instead of jumping over it takes longer. You know this. Why are you pretending you don't understanding this?


Action button should suffice, I'd be quite happy if one was implemented to be honest.

As for the differences between typical WoW and FFXI poster, you have the right idea. Also, this being the FFXI-V forum, attracts a lot of stupid XI fanboys around here.
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#145 Jun 12 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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So you're going to put an 'action point' on every single thing that could be an obstacle?
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#146 Jun 12 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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I still dont get the resitance to jumping. It's become a BASIC feature of mmos. Its as basic as magic, swords, and mounts. I haven't played an mmo in the last 5 years that hasnt had jumping in it.
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#147 Jun 12 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory has the right of it in regards to WoW versus FFXI posters, especially on this forum. Believe it or not, the majority of WoW people don't even know that FFXI exists, much less would go to the trouble of flaming it anywhere or looking for advice on how to make an mmo better from it. A lot of that can be attributed to the fact that Blizzard maintains and advocates an entirely closed environment. The people who post here are people who play/have played MMOs other than WoW and this is the premiere site for those MMOs. This is not the premiere site for Blizzard.

I joined a guild of 100+ people when I started playing WoW and not one of them had a clue what game I was talking about when I was explaining my gaming background to them. Not to be inflammatory, but FFXI players overestimate their game's popularity and that extends to the general population as well.
#148 Jun 12 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
Jumping to fix a @#%^ed up staircase is a bandaid solution. A dumb one at that.


Either or...doesn't matter to me. I could care less about what (if anything) SE does to correct the pathing issues in FFXI. The issue at hand is whether or not the option to jump in FFXIV could improve aspects of the game, and the reasonable answer is that yes, it could.
#149 Jun 12 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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So you're going to put an 'action point' on every single thing that could be an obstacle?


There's not that many of those in general, honestly.
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#150 Jun 12 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
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There's not that many of those in general, honestly.
Really? You've played ffxiv? Man how did you get it so early? Is beta on already? Or are you really talking about FFXI here?

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 3:18pm by mezlabor
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#151 Jun 12 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Really? You've played ffxiv? Man how did you get it so early? Is beta on already? Or are you really talking about FFXI here?


Yep, and I'm only assuming that XIV isn't suddenly lower in quality than XI.

God help us all if it is.

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