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Character Growth through weaponsFollow

#1 Jun 11 2009 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I know there are a many posts about this already, but bear with me.

So from what the dev's have said and what for all we know there isn't gonna be character levels gained from EXP. And Weapons it sounds will be our way to progress in game.

Gaining skill levels with weapons might give us our "Job Abilities" or "Magic Spells"

what if weapons and equipment came with stats attached to them so like if you wield a sword you get: +5hp +2mp +5 parry +1str. a skill level. a wand you get +10 mp +1hp +5mnd +5int. a skill level.

Of course differnt weapons of the same catagory will have differnt stats on how you want your character to grow. Normal weapons will give you certin skills as you level.So maybe "Rare" weapons will accually allow you to learn a "Class defining" skills. like maybe if you gain level 10 with a polearm, you visit a NPC who is a polearm trainer and he gives you a quest to find a legendary dragoon spear. if compelte said quest and you get to use the spear. it allows you to use the "Jump" skill and you are able to learn it for good if you use that spear enough. Sort of like unlocking the latent effects on weapons in FFXI.

If this is a possibility we'll be able to mix and match jobs to our liking. WE'll be able to wield a sword and shield, cast curing magic, and maybe sneak attack. If we used the correct weapons to gained said skills.
So we still have the job system in place, but works differntly then FFXI. of course the weapon you are weilding at the momment might hinder you from using certin skills to their maximum effect. Like using a DD type weapon. ie Greatsword, Scythe, Battle Axe. Might give you -mp per skill level, or very few. SO you can;t be a DD + healer at the same time. In the same respect you can't be a healing DD either, unless you go the magic route. Or possibly you are able to slot a certin amount of "extra skills" outside of your current main weapon choice.

Just an idea i've had rolling around my head the last few days.



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#2 Jun 11 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
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As long as they don't put really important skills on incredibly hard to obtain items.
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#3 Jun 11 2009 at 5:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that's generally how it's going to work. What sounded like a key phrase to me was "the weapon you use on a given day will determine the direction your character grows in". They also said there would definitely be jobs, but they would work differently than FFXI.

I expect using different weapons will cause growth in different stats. For example, using a staff will increase your INT, using a great axe will increase your STR etc. You'll also be able to learn job abilities after using a weapon for a while. I think you'll gain the stats and abilities specific to your class faster with a weapon than a different class using that weapon would. For example, a Thief using a dagger would gain DEX and learn Treasure Hunter faster than a White Mage using a dagger would, but the White Mage could still do it, just like lots of people in FFXI leveled a THF sub to 15 for Treasure Hunter so they could farm better.

I think this will work a lot better than the job/subjob system from FFXI. You can still get the benefits of a subjob, but without the time and expense of leveling a whole new job just for one ability. Like, if you wanted to learn Stun, but you're a Red Mage, you could just spend some time using a scythe, rather than playing DRK all the way to 37. Probably you'll even be able to do it solo and partying will be reserved for gaining abilities in your main job.

I like the idea of having a number of slots to equip different abilities you learned from other jobs. I think it'll give you a much more granular control of how your character develops. E.G you might be able to have a RDM main job and equip stun from DRK, Utsusemi from NIN, and Aspir from BLM. That'd be awesome. (Not that those specific abilities will necessarily be in the game, per se)
#4 Jun 11 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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All of these sound fairly realistic.

As big of a party pooper it may make me, I kind of want to keep most of the defining lines between one job and another.
The idea of keeping a handful of abilities/spells tucked away on any job you're playing sounds too susceptible to abuse. Unless there are only a few, non-specialized abilities that can be placed in that category, like maybe a weak Provoke.

Combining job titles and weapons to create job/sub is an interesting thought. Maybe if each job specialized in a few weapons, and each weapon type brought out different "specs" in the WoW sense, of that job. I see opportunity for quick changes between well-rounded soloist playstyle and niche party playstyle by switching out weapons types.
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#5 Jun 11 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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I prefer the "all growth is on-use" idea. Within that concept, stats don't grow arbitrarily. In a system where, for example, Intellect influences only magic, it wouldn't be necessary for a warrior to gain intellect at all. It wouldn't be necessary for a dedicated caster to gain strength.

Instead of a system where you gain attributes in a structure or semi-structured way based on stages of development, you gain attributes based on what you do (and what happens to you). A heavy focus on doing damage with a heavy weapon would grant increases to your STR at semi-frequent intervals. Instead of gaining, for example, +5 STR when you reach a certain stage of development, you gain +1 STR here and +1 STR there based on a fine increment. Major focus on small/light weapons would build Agility more than Strength. Using a lot of offensive magic/enfeebling would yield increases to Intellect and MP. Healing and enhancing magic would yield increases to your Wisdom and MP. Taking a lot of damage relative to your HP pool (and surviving :P) would yield increases to your health pool. You could call that the attribute layer of development, which would function independently from the skill layer.

FFXI already had a tracking system for skill with melee weapons and different categories of magic. The skill system with melee weapons could be carried over almost as-is (no doubt with some tweaks and additions for flavor and diversity) and the magic system might be enhanced so that instead of having to have job level <x> with class <y> in order to be able to use Scroll of <spell>, you would have to have skill level <x> in magic category <y> in order to accomplish the same thing (although I still like the TLR method of just learning the spell as soon as the game decides you've "practiced" enough to do so).

Adding what we came to know as class-specific abilities could be done in a number of ways. I think it would be entirely feasible that new characters start out with no class defining abilities at all, but as you progress your character (and depending on how you progress your character), certain quests open up and completing those quests gives you access to the categories of abilities that resemble jobs from the Final Fantasy universe. Alternately, it could be arranged so that those categories of abilities are automatically unlocked when you meet certain criteria, with more "advanced" jobs required more developed characters in order to meet the criteria.

Regardless, I look at any speculation about the development system and try to compare it to the concept of "natural" development the devs stated, which in many ways rules out attribute growth or skill development based on the weapon you have equipped almost without considering what you actually do with that weapon.
#6 Jun 11 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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I would have no problem with a skill system that actually makes you better at what you do most - this type of growth can really be rewarding, as well as give you the sense that you are accomplishing what YOU want to accomplish.
#7 Jun 11 2009 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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Kotisu wrote:
I would have no problem with a skill system that actually makes you better at what you do most - this type of growth can really be rewarding, as well as give you the sense that you are accomplishing what YOU want to accomplish.


IT can also provide a more consistent sense of progression. Instead of most of your development coming as you gain a level, the development is ongoing. An example would be the level of your skill with a weapon in FFXI. I always found it fun to see those little 0.1 and 0.2 increases to various different skills, but eventually you would cap out again based on your job level and those would stop until you gained another level. If you could have that sort of thing applied to all categories including attributes, you get a lot more little "rewards" and indications of progression spread out over time. (I can't say that I'd like to see tiny incremental increases to attributes. (ie. "Your Strength increases by 0.1.) In the case of attributes, if the increment was hidden and you only got notifications when it reached a whole number I think that would be perfectly adequate to suit me ;D)
#8 Jun 11 2009 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm interested to see if XIV brings back the pet jobs. Primarily Puppetmaster, as it's the one job i find incredibly fun

on that note, while they don't have a set class system, and it's all based on what you do personally with your character (which i am in love with, the fact that Naeo would differ from person A, B, and C is amazing) they should still upon character creation give you the basics to start with, or start you with a Sword, Dagger, and Staff/Wand. so you can choose which path you want to take. While if you take BST, DRG, SMN, PUP, or whatever other pet jobs they throw in, you start with the barebones for it. Like DRG / PUP you start with a weak little automaton and wyvern, then depending on how you build your character, your pet gains skills as well.

Though that said, if you want a Ranged Puppet, or a Healing Wyvern, you'd have to skill your character in those aspects.

Though i'm looking forward to saying good bye to the subjobs and leveling every class to 37 for a sub. it'll be nice to just grab the dagger that gives you Treasure Hunter, learning it, and then always have it active.

I forsee alot of people trying to go the route of Paladin solo'ing with a staff to learn their spells though. Should be interesting to see how people build their characters though.

In theory you could build a character that while a thief, can take a hit to the face. or a White Mage, that when things get hectic, can throw on a sword, and beat down the mob with the rest of em and dish out damage

keep in mind, this is all in speculation and theory based on what we know.
I'm looking towards the ammount of work and effort to build the characters, so they're actually YOURS. not just mimics of others in your same class.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 1:52am by Naeo
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#9 Jun 11 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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Naeo wrote:
Though i'm looking forward to saying good bye to the subjobs and leveling every class to 37 for a sub. it'll be nice to just grab the dagger that gives you Treasure Hunter, learning it, and then always have it active.


I'm all for diversity, but that's the sort of thing I'd prefer not to see. If learning abilities was simply a matter of getting a weapon that had the ability "on" it and then using that weapon for a certain period of time to learn it, we'd end up with a hodge-podge community of characters that all had certain specific abilities like Treasure Hunter, regardless of whether or not they ever really invested any time playing their character in a manner that resembles a Thief. The only way around it would be to limit access to those kinds of weapons based on skill criteria (ie. must have Dagger skill at or above <x> to equip the dagger with Treasure Hunter). Even then, that sort of thing would likely lead to players who weren't the least bit interested in playing as a Thief, but would go out and bump up their Dagger skill similar to what we see in FFXI skill up parties just so they could be a healer with Treasure Hunter.

To clarify, that's not to suggest that I think that if you want to be a healer then that's all you should ever be, just that if you want the "better" benefits associated with what we would currently consider to be a particular job, that you'd have to invest some time playing in a way that resembles that job before you'd have access to the goodies.
#10 Jun 11 2009 at 10:13 PM Rating: Default
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In some way all of this needs to be tied to a job-system where you can only access certain abilities at a certain time.

Otherwise we run into the chance of everyone having every ability at endgame, and I just think that would be no fun. It would lead to every character and player completely losing their sense of individuality.

Now, if you did nothing but play FFXIV nonstop for several years in optimum conditions, maybe then you could be one of ten people who spent that much time to have every ability available at any time. But hopefully by that time an intervention would have taken place and someone would have deleted your account on your behalf.

I suppose what I am saying (Aside from the whole blandness of a game if everyone had the same abilities), is that if every character was able to eventually learn every ability, the only way to keep people from rapidly having the same abilities would be an even more arduous skill up system than FFXI. I think that would drive even those comfortable with the FFXI skill system away.

Oh, and please look at the 'Gear System' Thread. It has alot of ideas about character growth through weapons and gear, and although this is a nice new thread, I think alot of these Ideas have a place in that thread.

And it would be nice to keep everything in one place, you know, just in case SE reads it... so they can find it in a single place. (and the other readers as well, like me)
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#11 Jun 11 2009 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh I agree that you should have skill lv. x before learning the ability.
But i'm holding out hope for a puppetmaster in XIV, so for me, that'd be a solo job, so having TH would benefit me, farming and leveling my "main" skills.

they'd have to find a way to have exclusive skills depending on how you augment your character through actions. so someone who puts all their emphasis on debuffs, would get Convert or something. while someone who evenly spreads WHM/BLM skills would open up the option of a "Scholar" esque job? Though that may be defining someone into a class, but it'd reward those who strive in something and reward them with an ability exclusive to the role they choose to play.
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#12 Jun 11 2009 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
In some way all of this needs to be tied to a job-system where you can only access certain abilities at a certain time.


I could see a couple of ways around a free-for-all kind of system where you learn an ability/spell/whatever and then have access to it all the time.

One that I mentioned elsewhere might be a system where certain weapons can have either a positive or a negative impact on each category of abilities. For ease of explanation, let's say that all spells and abilities were linked to the level of skill you had in the appropriate category. Being able to cast Cure III, for example, might require that you have a White Magic Skill of 120 (numbers are directly from my **** to serve as example only :P). Let's say that equipping a staff gave you a boost to your effective White Magic skill...say...+10. And let's say equipping a 2h axe gave you a penalty to your effective White Magic skill...call it -40. Let's say that your character with no weapon equipped has a White Magic skill of 115. With no weapon equipped, they can't cast Cure III. With a staff equipped (effective White Magic skill of 125), they can cast Cure III (and possibly learn new spells sooner because of the bonus). With a 2h axe equipped, their effective White Magic skill is 75...they cannot cast Cure III. In order to be able to cast Cure III while wielding a 2h axe, they would have to have a "naked" White Magic skill of 160 or higher to account for the penalty.

Another idea would be where skills/spells might be restricted based on the weapon you have equipped. An example might be Raise II requires that you have a staff or wand equipped, or in order to receive the passive benefit of Treasure Hunter you would have to have a dagger, sword, or club equipped. In order to use an ability like Sharpshot, you would have to have a ranged weapon equipped, and in order to use an ability like Hasso or Saigan you would have to have a Katana equipped.

I can see lots of opportunity for SE to place restrictions on access to abilities in line with their "weapon X one day for one role, weapon Y another day for another role" concept that would prevent a jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-them-all-too environment.
#13 Jun 11 2009 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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In one of the other threads about character growth, i had an idea (someone may have beat me to this)

But while players CAN learn everything, does not mean they can use all their skills at once.
What if XIV did something like the BLU magic system? you get x ammount of points to use.

example:
Your armor grants you a total of 15 skill points
White Magic, uses 4 points.
Red Magic (Enfeebling) uses 4 points.
Auto Refresh takes up 2 points
Divine Seal-like Ability takes up 3 points.
MP+40 takes up 2 points


while you may have Treasure hunter learned, because you're going into a party situation, the White Mage chooses to take a "Sub-skill" of Red Magic. While adding on an ability similar to Divine Seal, Auto Refresh, and MP+40 takes up the rest of their skill points available.

this in essence would allow for complete customization of your abilities, while allowing people to still play "paladin" "dark knight" or whatever.

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#14 Jun 11 2009 at 10:48 PM Rating: Default
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I think your idea is good, but a little complicated. Having each specific weapon give a bonus or debuff to each possible skill category would make an exhausting equipment management time.

Great Axe lvl 100

-40 white magic skill
-35 black magic skill
-50 enfeebleing magic skill
-50 enhancing magic skill
-100 Beast affinity skill
+50 Axe skill
-20 Defense skill
+10 parry skill

Etc, Etc.

Perhaps best to have weapons with clear abilities posted on them

'Great Axe lvl 100'
Allows player to use learned warrior abilities or Dark Knight abilites

Teaches: 'Big axe attack.. Warrior 0/100, DRK 0/150'

and
'Leech Axe lvl 100'

Allows player to use learned warrior abilities or Dark Knight abilites

Drains HP

teaches 'Drain hp DRK 0/100'
teaches 'Drain attack WAR 0/100'


Even this is too complex to make a 'casual friendly' RPG.

At some point there has to be a certain class distinction made.
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#15 Jun 11 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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lmao XD i'll edit my post on the other thread. reply to that one there, so we're not having the same conversation on two threads :>
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#16 Jun 11 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Default
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No matter what they do, there will still be people whining that their melee oriented caster with cloth armor isn't getting invited to play endgame. That is just how it is, you get into endgame by being able to fulfill what a group needs to the best of your ability.

If every player can get into a group and go to an endgame event regardless of their equipment and skills or skill level, or ability to play the game...
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#17 Jun 11 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah. that'll be a problem, but right now, it's all speculation.

btw, check the other thread, i added another example to try and expand on what i was trying to get across :> this one's a paladin example!
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#18 Jun 11 2009 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:

Even this is too complex to make a 'casual friendly' RPG.

At some point there has to be a certain class distinction made.


There would be a learning curve, no doubt about that. There would be ways to implement a tooltip that allows at-a-glance information on how a particular weapon would impact your skills and abilities without having to equip the weapon. If you're focusing on a particular role, you would likely only be looking at the impact a weapon might have on a few of the abilities in the grand scheme of things. If you're wanting to play in line with the DRK archetype, you aren't necessarily going to care what impact the weapon has on white magic, summoning, beast affinity, etc.; you'll be looking to see what it does for your enfeebling, accuracy, attack power, etc.
#19 Jun 11 2009 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I expect using different weapons will cause growth in different stats. For example, using a staff will increase your INT, using a great axe will increase your STR etc. You'll also be able to learn job abilities after using a weapon for a while. I think you'll gain the stats and abilities specific to your class faster with a weapon than a different class using that weapon would. For example, a Thief using a dagger would gain DEX and learn Treasure Hunter faster than a White Mage using a dagger would, but the White Mage could still do it, just like lots of people in FFXI leveled a THF sub to 15 for Treasure Hunter so they could farm better.


I like this idea. May be to add more verity instead of each job being defined by one weapon make it so that your job defines what skills and abilities you gain form said weapon. Like one day you play as a thief and use a dagger and that grants you say some dex and at some point you get a pick pocket skill. No another player playing a thief decides to use a sword on his character, so he gains a little bit of str and dex and at some point instead of learning pick pocket he learns some swift sword skill that does dmg.

This could be applied to all the classes making them gain different abilities depending on the weapon they use so there would be lots of room for customization. Like a club warrior would be able to do different things then an axe warrior and also and axe warrior does different things than an axe dark knight.
#20 Jun 13 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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There should be an bility point system, so for example you learn treasure hunter which cost 10 ability points to equip and you have lets say 200 ability points. That way you could have every skill, ability, or trait but wouldn't have enough ability points to equip everything. Also you can't equip something like cure 3 without equipping cure 2 and 1.
Maybe you equip stats with ability points like +10 str cost 10AP, etc and special things like a pet cost 50 AP, and so on with spending. This would work great and allow for great customization.

Edited: More ability point (AP) ideas and explanation.
Stat + increase certain stat Example: Strength+, agility+, etc goes up 1 every AP point you put into it. Stuff like hp and mp would go up 5.
Weapon damage+ swords, axes, etc. 10AP increases that weapons damage by 10% or something like that.
Magic + white, black, enfeebling, etc. Can increase power of damage or maybe even increase power of a spell directly Example: slow+ increases the power of the spell slow, etc.
Duel wield- Cost 50AP
HP regain-15AP, 1 hp recovered every 3 seconds, can stack ability to heal up to 10 hp.
Counter- 30AP counter with weapon/weapons in hand.
Convert-100AP
Status effect immunity- Slow 50AP, paralyze 50AP, etc
Also you could choose your special Example: Invincible 100AP- Csn't be hurt for 30 seconds, 1 hour cool down time.Etc
Oh and maybe you can choose a weakness in exchange for more ability points. Example: choose weakness to fire and gain 30AP, etc

Any ways that's more of an explanation of my ability point system and some ideas for it tell me what you think or what you can think to add to it. (Based off my own video game idea.)



Edited, Jun 13th 2009 10:12pm by foxblade
#21 Jun 14 2009 at 12:49 AM Rating: Default
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foxblade wrote:
There should be an bility point system, so for example you learn treasure hunter which cost 10 ability points to equip and you have lets say 200 ability points. That way you could have every skill, ability, or trait but wouldn't have enough ability points to equip everything. Also you can't equip something like cure 3 without equipping cure 2 and 1.
Maybe you equip stats with ability points like +10 str cost 10AP, etc and special things like a pet cost 50 AP, and so on with spending. This would work great and allow for great customization.

Edited: More ability point (AP) ideas and explanation.
Stat + increase certain stat Example: Strength+, agility+, etc goes up 1 every AP point you put into it. Stuff like hp and mp would go up 5.
Weapon damage+ swords, axes, etc. 10AP increases that weapons damage by 10% or something like that.
Magic + white, black, enfeebling, etc. Can increase power of damage or maybe even increase power of a spell directly Example: slow+ increases the power of the spell slow, etc.
Duel wield- Cost 50AP
HP regain-15AP, 1 hp recovered every 3 seconds, can stack ability to heal up to 10 hp.
Counter- 30AP counter with weapon/weapons in hand.
Convert-100AP
Status effect immunity- Slow 50AP, paralyze 50AP, etc
Also you could choose your special Example: Invincible 100AP- Csn't be hurt for 30 seconds, 1 hour cool down time.Etc
Oh and maybe you can choose a weakness in exchange for more ability points. Example: choose weakness to fire and gain 30AP, etc

Any ways that's more of an explanation of my ability point system and some ideas for it tell me what you think or what you can think to add to it. (Based off my own video game idea.)



Edited, Jun 13th 2009 10:12pm by foxblade


Yep as far as Job functionality this is how I imagined it to work. You Gain ranks in weapons which the higher you go the more "AP" you get to spend on custom skills that compliment your base skills. (as long as you have those skills unlocked on other weapons)

It will be interesting to see what SE has come up with to take EXP away from character levels but to still provide growth through playing the game.

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