Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Poll: Would you like Fomor/Waltzes as a playable race? Follow

#1 Jun 11 2009 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Genryu was kind enough to create the poll a few posts down~
Please read before voting!

You are voting on whether or not you'd like a Fomor-type race, or a Waltz-type race, the glowy-eyed guys with the pitch black faces as a playable race in FFXIV (the race that Vivi is in FF9). PLEASE LOOK at reference pics here for official art of these guys as Dark Knights and Black Mages if you're not already familiar with how they have appeared in FFT.

CUSTOMIZATION
This would be assuming that this race could be ANY "job" just as presumably any other race can. Customization that you might expect would be in hair, eyes, and head/body shape.

Thanks for voting.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 11:36pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#2 Jun 11 2009 at 7:45 PM Rating: Default
*
230 posts
isn't that what Taru is?
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#3 Jun 11 2009 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Not even close. Look at the art.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#4 Jun 11 2009 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
*
210 posts
I imagine Vivi's race was mostly made up of small creatures who all mainly focus on magic... You know, like the Tarus. You just can't see Vivi's face. That doesn't mean in the game if he took off his hat he'd be a figure made up of black mist, it just means you can't see his face. The eyes are just a cartoony add-on that's popular in a lot of japanese games (i.e. Cloyster in Pokemon).
____________________________
R.I.P Teraud, Dragoon main on Seraph (2004-2007)
R.I.P. Atli, Blue Mage main on Seraph (2007-2008)
R.I.P. Silje, Beastmaster main on Odin (2008-2008)
R.I.P. My Final Fantasy XI Account forevahz

Back on ZAM for FFXIV!
#5 Jun 11 2009 at 8:10 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Eh, I really don't see that as the case. That was most likely the original intent with the design, but purely as a matter of lighting, if there was face to see, we would have seen it in FF9. Further, there were allllll those other Black Mages who looked the same, had their own village and everything.

Your point makes a degree of sense with the cloak and hat Black Mages, but when you look at the Dark Knight art, it's clear that their faces look exactly the same despite being in the same kind of equipment that many obviously human characters are in. And in FF9, they actually were creations made from a kind of mist (think it was mist? been a while).

So it's pretty clear that that's actually just how they look. And they're not short like Tarutaru in general-- only Vivi was short. In FFT and FF9, they're human size.

But just assuming you were right, and it was actually just Hume or Taru, I think there are still many people who would like their character to look that way.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#6 Jun 11 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
*
145 posts
No. This is like asking if you want Beastmaster or Paladin to be a race in my opinion. The Dark Knights from FFT are nothing more than humans with obscured faces. The same goes for Black Mages in every FF game except FF9 where they where constructs, it's debatable if the FF9 Black Mages where a race or not.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:11am by VidOmnipotent
____________________________
Live your own life because you will die your own death.
#7 Jun 11 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
It's not debatable if they were a race in FF9. It says so in the game.

Other jobs have no clearly defining physical characteristics either. FF9 sets the precedent that this is a RACE. FFT merely sets the precedent that this look can be applied to other jobs.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#8 Jun 11 2009 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,280 posts
Kachi wrote:
Edit: So is it still just premium users that can do polls or am I doin' it wrong? Some kind soul is welcome to repost it correctly for me >_>


Unfortunately yes :(

What are your feelings on a "Black Mage/Dark Knight" race in FFXIV?
I love it and I'd definitely play as that race! :13 (15.1%)
Sounds like a good idea and I might play as that race depending on my other choices. :9 (10.5%)
I wouldn't play as that race but think it should be a playable race, or at least wouldn't mind if it were. :18 (20.9%)
I don't think that should be a playable race. :46 (53.5%)
Total:86

____________________________
Retired from FFXI ....but for how long this time?
#9 Jun 11 2009 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
*
73 posts
Unfortunately for all those people hoping for a Vivi type character it is kinda... Unneeded. The way I view it playing as a "Black mage" race is kinda like playing as an automoton from FFXI no soul... thats if you go by FFIX story. Plus they don't live all that long D: So I dont really wish to see them. Tarutaru fill their spot just fine and I believe that their XIV counterpart will still do them justice.
#10 Jun 11 2009 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I guess I just don't understand this mentality that people have when it comes to games. If they wouldn't play it themselves, they seem to prefer if it weren't in the game at all. I see this with so many games, like SSBB for example. People always point to why something new isn't "needed." You know, races aren't needed at all. There are plenty of games out there where your only choice is Human.

Who's even talking about stats? And if we were, does it really make a **** bit of difference if two races have the exact same stats? Isn't it about letting players make a character that appeals to them? I really have a hard time believing that there aren't many people who wouldn't LOVE this option given the popularity of 8-bit Black Mage, Vivi, and FFT Dark Knights. Maybe some people just want to be a spellcaster that isn't a midget? It's like freaking playable Moogles. Are there honestly people who wouldn't want playable Moogles?

I guess it just never ceases to amaze me how incredibly narrowminded and unimaginative some people are.

Quote:
Unfortunately for all those people hoping for a Vivi type character it is kinda... Unneeded. The way I view it playing as a "Black mage" race is kinda like playing as an automoton from FFXI no soul... thats if you go by FFIX story. Plus they don't live all that long D: So I dont really wish to see them. Tarutaru fill their spot just fine and I believe that their XIV counterpart will still do them justice.


You really have to throw past contexts out the window. Taru are not Taru. Galka are not Galka. There's no reason that FFXIV Black Mage would be FFXI Black Mage. Nevermind the fact that you're wrong about them not having souls. The Black Mage Village makes that quite clear.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Jun 11 2009 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
*
58 posts
I'm all for more race choices. The more the better. I just don't think it's a good idea to tie a race down to a specific job. Sure, a race should be more inclined to a field, taru are good with magic, galka are strong, mithra are agile, etc.

The problem I see is all members of that race will be blm, and all blm will be that race.
#12 Jun 11 2009 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Nonono, that's something I posted in the very first post, under "Please read before voting!"

Quote:
A couple of minor notes-- this would be assuming that this race could be any "job" just as presumably any other race can. Customization that you might expect would be in hair, eyes, and head/body shape.


They've already made this race into a Dark Knight in FFT (although in FFT itself, it's not considered a race), demonstrating that it can be easily applied to any job.

There are links to pictures in the OP.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#13 Jun 11 2009 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
**
576 posts
Kachi wrote:
Nonono, that's something I posted in the very first post, under "Please read before voting!"

Quote:
A couple of minor notes-- this would be assuming that this race could be any "job" just as presumably any other race can. Customization that you might expect would be in hair, eyes, and head/body shape.


They've already made this race into a Dark Knight in FFT (although in FFT itself, it's not considered a race), demonstrating that it can be easily applied to any job.

There are links to pictures in the OP.


For one, I don't think SE would let a white mage look like that.
____________________________
FFXI, Siren: Pickins BST99.:~:.BLM75.:~:.RDM56
FFXIV, Siren: Miss Pickins - Builder of the Realm
#14 Jun 11 2009 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I really don't see why not. I understand your reasoning, but I don't think that's a strong enough reason to not include a race that I'm sure many people would love to have. ****, you could make them white with pink eyes, but if there's anything FF9 has shown us, it's that they're not evil. It's not like they can't sub White Magic anyway either.

And in retrospect, I didn't think SE would let an ANYTHING, let alone a WHM, look like a -Galka- before FFXI hit the shelves. But this is not a Galka-hating thread.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:12am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Jun 11 2009 at 11:31 PM Rating: Default
***
1,457 posts
Kachi, I think it's cool that you like old throwbacks to previous FFs, but clearly people don't want that as a race. My personal reason is: If SE is to add a new race, I want to see it in detail and have it with pupils, iris', a nose, mouth, etc. I definitely think they should add a new race or two, but I just don't think this one would fly with most. It doesn't push the boundaries of crystal tools in any way either.
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#16 Jun 12 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Well it's also pretty clear that there are plenty of people who -would- like it as a race. This poll is not producing very valid results, but even from the glib appearance of these votes, what does say if 15% of players want to play as a race in a game where there can be expected to be around 10 jobs? A little basic math tells you that it would be a popular job.

Now as for all the people who would for some reason prefer if it weren't there, I don't know what to say but that people would have almost definitely voted the same way for any of the races in FFXI. Most people would not have wanted Galkas. They wouldn't have wanted Mithra as a female only race. They wouldn't have wanted those freaky little Taru midgets or the lanky elves. These kinds of comments ran rampant upon the game's release. In light of that, I really consider the polling results to be pretty favorable.

But what's the message here? We want less races? Fewer options are for some reason better? Especially in light of, as you said, it being a relatively simple race to implement and not at all taxing on the engine.

I mean what exactly are the better suggestions out there? If I run a similar poll for Bangaa, Seeq, or even Moogles and Viera, I'd expect to see similarly more "No" votes from people who don't want to play as Bangaa.

It sounds from your comment of wanting to see "another race or two" that you're expecting FFXI+1 rather than a completely new and different game. I just don't buy that, nor will I buy it in the unlikely case that that's what it is.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Jun 12 2009 at 8:39 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,159 posts
I don't know if this is the case in all FF games but the "black mage" race you are talking about are humans in FF Tactics A2.
#18 Jun 12 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
You answered the question in your question. It is how "Black Mages" looked. I don't want my race to dictate my job, and I don't want to see what should be BLMs playing melee or healing jobs.
____________________________
Vawn (Rank 10 San d'Oria Bastok Windurst)
All jobs 75
Amanomurakumo

My 5-Box FFXI Setup (Pictures)
SoullessSoliders Adventures
#19 Jun 12 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
***
2,010 posts
I'll be honest, I loved FF9. It was my favorite, and Vivi Orunitier especially was the one character that I adored because of the lore that shrouded his mysterious people.

However, I always felt that particular character was too much of a Masters of the of Universe rip off, and wasn't really all that original. I voted to allow it, but I doubt it is going to make any difference anyway. We'll see some new things, but SE has almost flat out said that they are sticking with the tried and true.
#20 Jun 12 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Default
**
432 posts
yeah I remember In final fantasy tactics war of the lions there are only humans, and you could make your human a BLM and he will instantly become dark faced with only dots as his eyes. same with dark knight.

Would I love that whatever character I make turns all dark with only dots as his/her eyes when I change to BLM or DRK?

abso-freaking-lutely!!!

---
kyunalesca
lakshmi

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:46pm by ashikenshin
____________________________
Kyunalesca
Lakshmi

"should you punch a six-year old girl in the face -- or should you punch her in the stomach? Hmm, that's a toughie."

Battlecat:
"I've always felt the best way to respond to someone calmly presenting their point of view is to fly off the handle and insult everyone who doesn't think like exactly like myself as well."
#21 Jun 12 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
It is how "Black Mages" looked. I don't want my race to dictate my job, and I don't want to see what should be BLMs playing melee or healing jobs.


Well that's the thing. SE has already done this with the rerelease of FFT. It puts this "Black Mage" in a Dark Knight's armor. Granted, yes, it would be a teensy bit strange seeing this as a healer, but I imagine that most people wouldn't take it in that direction in the first place. You can look at any potential race and envision it in a way that makes it unappealing.

I mean, how many people actually WANTED to see a Galka in a subligar?

Or even Galka mages in general? You don't see them in those roles, they don't seem like they belong there, but that's just part of the price you pay in letting people play as Galka melees and tanks, or Taru as mages. You're going to get a minority of players who want to put those races outside of their expected roles.


Quote:
but SE has almost flat out said that they are sticking with the tried and true.


While all that they have unveiled so far are the old races, "tried and true" has never been SE's style. Yes, they tend to keep a few defining elements and lore intact, but FFXI races don't fall anywhere near that trend.

Nor would I really call the races in XI tried and true. Tried, definitely, but to this day there are still many people who find 3/5s of the races in XI not at all aesthetically pleasing and poorly conceived.

I'll be utterly amazed, in a bad way, if they don't add at least a few new races.

And you know, I really think most people would think that this was a great idea if SE announced it themselves, rather than some random guy on the forums. And I've always felt that way-- that people, in general, are more prone to be approving of an idea when the developers put it out there. It lends it a bit more "credibility" and rallies the support of the loyalists. Or maybe people just don't bother naysaying since it already has the blessing of the creators. I don't know, but there's definitely a trend.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#22 Jun 12 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
***
2,010 posts
When I said tried and true, I wasn't necessarily referring to Final Fantasy only. I was referring to the images that we can see in the artwork of the typical Elf, Giant, Human, Dwarf races that are represented in some way in almost every game.
#23 Jun 12 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,211 posts
GenryuOfBahamut wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Edit: So is it still just premium users that can do polls or am I doin' it wrong? Some kind soul is welcome to repost it correctly for me >_>


Unfortunately yes :(


I never did understand Alla's justification for arbitrarily denying forum posters access to normal forum tools unless they were paid for their use.
____________________________
I be Ranz... the Melee White Mage. Arrrr.(As seen on Phoenix)
The friendliest Dynamis linkshell on Phoenix
My FFXI AH Info
#24 Jun 12 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
The waltz/black waltz or w/e you want to call them from ffix were constructed with magic and souls from the invincible or something like that if i remember rightly so they did have souls but their personality etc had to develope over time because they were ment as mindless automatons to serve their master, when the magic that bound the soul to the doll faded so too did they. Though Vivi was obviously a bit different from the rest of them if you saw the last cutscene of ffix.

I wouldnt be against a race of them but i cant see them doing it really since only ffix were they anymore than just ppl with their face hidden, that being said it might be nice to have some headgear that made you look like one :D. It'd suck if you had to camp a nm for it tho -.- all the blms would probbably be after it unless it was vastly inferior to another as easily attainable piece of the same lv.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 1:41pm by Galeofthedragonknight
#25 Jun 12 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
*
230 posts
I think a Black Mage race would be a pretty stupid addition... because they'd be very limited in their job selection. I think the races should be very broad and generic, with different bonuses and weaknesses to different areas of the game. Pick a race that complements your GENERAL play style, not the single "class" (route) you plan to start with.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#26 Jun 12 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
When I said tried and true, I wasn't necessarily referring to Final Fantasy only. I was referring to the images that we can see in the artwork of the typical Elf, Giant, Human, Dwarf races that are represented in some way in almost every game.


Ah, I see what you mean, but I honestly don't think many people draw those kinds of parallels between the FFXI races and the old races. I mean, I doubt there are many people who say, "I want to play as an elf, so Elvaan is for me!" Or, "Galka, why those are just like the giants that I love!" Everything I have seen points to people judging races on their own merits.

Quote:
The waltz/black waltz or w/e you want to call them from ffix were constructed with magic and souls from the invincible or something like that if i remember rightly so they did have souls but their personality etc had to develope over time because they were ment as mindless automatons to serve their master, when the magic that bound the soul to the doll faded so too did they. Though Vivi was obviously a bit different from the rest of them if you saw the last cutscene of ffix.


Thank you for reminding me of the term "Waltz." I think I'm going to just call them that because the confusion caused by calling them Black Mages is clearly causing many people some difficulty.

Case in point:

Quote:
I think a Black Mage race would be a pretty stupid addition... because they'd be very limited in their job selection. I think the races should be very broad and generic, with different bonuses and weaknesses to different areas of the game. Pick a race that complements your GENERAL play style, not the single "class" (route) you plan to start with.


That's not what's being discussed. You'd be able to play a Waltz as any job you wanted.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 10:52am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Jun 12 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
*
242 posts
I'll stick with the tarutaru, as he/she has proven their worth as a BLM.
____________________________
Character name: Undecided
Race: Lalafell
Nation: Gridania
Armoury: Desciple of Magic/Land/Hand
PS3 user
PSN: TheJollyJokers
XBOX Live: TheJollyJokers
#28 Jun 12 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
161 posts
You would also have to think about the amount of customization that would go into that race's character creation. They would all look the same. I'm all for new races, but black mist people seems very restricting. You are criticizing people from not wanting to include them, but they just aren't as dominant of a race as say Bangaa or Moogles. Why put in a race that was previously limited to 1 job?
That's like putting in a Cait Sith race or a RedXIII race(I can't remember what the race was called). It simply doesn't lend itself to being a race in a MMORPG.
I'm glad to see people thinking outside the box, but you have to admit this idea would never pass, espesially in FFXIV.
____________________________




#29 Jun 12 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I already addressed customization in the OP.

Quote:
Customization that you might expect would be in hair, eyes, and head/body shape.


Look, you can harp on customization, but just look at FFXI. Where's the customization there? There could easily be more customization for Waltzes than what's present in the game that's already out.

Quote:
Why put in a race that was previously limited to 1 job?


Keyword: previously. Better question: Why not?

Quote:
they just aren't as dominant of a race as say Bangaa or Moogles


It has more of a presence in the lore than Bangaa, and I can pretty confidently say would be at least as popular. But I'm really not saying we shouldn't have Bangaa and Moogles too, am I?

Quote:
That's like putting in a Cait Sith race or a RedXIII race(I can't remember what the race was called).


Cait Sith was a robot. I mean, it would really be completely doable, but I haven't given it any thought. I somewhat doubt its popularity but you could actually have an idea there.

Red XIII simply wouldn't work because it's not a humanoid design. At the very least characters need to be able to stand on two legs and have two hands with opposable thumbs. You can add beyond that, but that really is the bare minimum. You could however make a case for the Ronso (Kimahri from FFX). It would be more like that. And what's wrong with that? Besides Ronso being at least as ugly as Galka.

Quote:
you have to admit this idea would never pass, espesially in FFXIV.


I really, REALLY don't.

Do I think it's likely that SE will do it? No, not really, not without at least a push from the community. But I think SE passes on a lot of great ideas. Just because it's not likely that they'll do it doesn't make it a bad idea. I'm not trying to be a prophet here, but an advocate.

Just be forthcoming with what you really mean. You don't want to play as a Waltz, and you think that's plenty of reason to deprive the people that do.

And I'd rather not play as a Galka, really would even prefer them to not be in the game, but not enough to deny the people that want to play as them. For the record, Waltzes would be far more popular than Galka without question.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#30 Jun 12 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
3,317 posts
Mictam wrote:
You would also have to think about the amount of customization that would go into that race's character creation. They would all look the same. I'm all for new races, but black mist people seems very restricting. You are criticizing people from not wanting to include them, but they just aren't as dominant of a race as say Bangaa or Moogles. Why put in a race that was previously limited to 1 job?
That's like putting in a Cait Sith race or a RedXIII race(I can't remember what the race was called). It simply doesn't lend itself to being a race in a MMORPG.
I'm glad to see people thinking outside the box, but you have to admit this idea would never pass, especially in FFXIV.


It's a bit early to be saying what would and would not pass in FFXIV isn't it?

I think it would be interesting to see something like that in this new game. And I don't think personally not wanting to play a race is reason enough to exclude it either *coughgalkacough*
#31 Jun 12 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Kachi wrote:

Ah, I see what you mean, but I honestly don't think many people draw those kinds of parallels between the FFXI races and the old races. I mean, I doubt there are many people who say, "I want to play as an elf, so Elvaan is for me!" Or, "Galka, why those are just like the giants that I love!" Everything I have seen points to people judging races on their own merits.



You are right, consciously that parallel isn't drawn, but subconsciously folks are going to choose something that they have always liked. You'll often find that folks who like Taru also liked Hobbits and gully Dwarves and Kender, and other similar representations of that *kind* of small and cute creature, and the same with Elves and Elvaan. I mean you really don't think that people see the similarities between Elves in LOTR and Elvaan in FFXI?

:)


#32 Jun 12 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
Kachi wrote:
FF9 sets the precedent that this is a RACE. FFT merely sets the precedent that this look can be applied to other jobs.


Have you not plaved FF3 or FF5? These are the two other FF games with switchable jobs. In both of these when you change to Black Mage, your character looks like one of these "black people" you talk about. In neither of those games is it a race.
____________________________
Vawn (Rank 10 San d'Oria Bastok Windurst)
All jobs 75
Amanomurakumo

My 5-Box FFXI Setup (Pictures)
SoullessSoliders Adventures
#33 Jun 12 2009 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Actually I see a lot of people complain about the lack of similarity between the two-- that they're not the elegant, dextrous, intelligent, magically proficient race that they have traditionally been. And I know many people who did not pick Elvaan for exactly that reason.

But there are certainly people for which your point is true-- I just don't see that as a very strong objection to Waltzes. People have been in love with those lil guys for years, and many people have a draw not to elves, giants, and dwarves, but to dark, shadowy figures. I mean, the fact that so many people like them seems to suggest that a little subconscious bias doesn't go very far in this case. And there are many people for whom their exposure to this game will be completely independent of those traditional Western categories. Not everyone who likes the MMO and fantasy genres are products of Tolkien. In this case a considerable percentage of them come from the Japanese culture, which is almost entirely absent of those Western roles.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#34 Jun 12 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Have you not plaved FF3 or FF5? These are the two other FF games with switchable jobs. In both of these when you change to Black Mage, your character looks like one of these "black people" you talk about. In neither of those games is it a race.


I have, and that's already been addressed. Look, I'm not sure if I can spell this out without being a little condescending as this is pretty basic logic.

In FFX2 you can dress up as a Moogle or a Tonberry. Yes, they're just costumes-- you can't actually play as them. But they're ALSO a race. In FF9, Waltzes are a race. Erego, there is a race of them. No, they are not always a race. Sometimes they are just a costume.

Nonetheless, it's a fallacy to say that it's not a race. If it's EVER been a race, then it's a race.

I just thought that was pretty obvious and didn't need to be belabored.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#35 Jun 12 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
**
336 posts
They remind me of something...
#36 Jun 12 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
**
817 posts
remind me of someting else

if SE allow skin/eyes character customisation you'd be able to do something like it, but as a race ther's probably no way, the main reason why it probably won't be, is the summerfest bathing suit :x
#37 Jun 12 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
161 posts
Redyoshi wrote:
Mictam wrote:
You would also have to think about the amount of customization that would go into that race's character creation. They would all look the same. I'm all for new races, but black mist people seems very restricting. You are criticizing people from not wanting to include them, but they just aren't as dominant of a race as say Bangaa or Moogles. Why put in a race that was previously limited to 1 job?
That's like putting in a Cait Sith race or a RedXIII race(I can't remember what the race was called). It simply doesn't lend itself to being a race in a MMORPG.
I'm glad to see people thinking outside the box, but you have to admit this idea would never pass, especially in FFXIV.


It's a bit early to be saying what would and would not pass in FFXIV isn't it?

I think it would be interesting to see something like that in this new game. And I don't think personally not wanting to play a race is reason enough to exclude it either *coughgalkacough*


I'm not saying I don't like them, or that I don't want them in the game for that matter. I'm just saying if they are keeping the same basic races from FFXI. 'Waltzes' just don't fit in. There are always going to be people that want to play that shadowy character type, that doesn't mean they should be included.
Focusing more on the stronger points of my arguement, think about the character creation process. They have 0 facial features.


Kachi wrote:
Now as for all the people who would for some reason prefer if it weren't there, I don't know what to say but that people would have almost definitely voted the same way for any of the races in FFXI. Most people would not have wanted Galkas. They wouldn't have wanted Mithra as a female only race. They wouldn't have wanted those freaky little Taru midgets or the lanky elves. These kinds of comments ran rampant upon the game's release. In light of that, I really consider the polling results to be pretty favorable.

But what's the message here? We want less races? Fewer options are for some reason better? Especially in light of, as you said, it being a relatively simple race to implement and not at all taxing on the engine.


You are drawing false conclusions about what this poll actually means. We are not saying we don't want more races. We are saying that 'Waltzes' simply aren't the new race we would like to see. 'Waltzes' show up as a race in 1 FF game. They show up as a visual change in multiple FF games. In a player's mind they are more of a Job than a race.

Kachi wrote:
Do I think it's likely that SE will do it? No, not really, not without at least a push from the community. But I think SE passes on a lot of great ideas. Just because it's not likely that they'll do it doesn't make it a bad idea. I'm not trying to be a prophet here, but an advocate.

And I'd rather not play as a Galka, really would even prefer them to not be in the game, but not enough to deny the people that want to play as them. For the record, Waltzes would be far more popular than Galka without question.


We aren't talking about popularity. Why not include Moogles? They would be, by far, one of th most popular races. To be honest, I don't like galkas, they way they look, their backstory, nothing. Does that mean I don't want them in the game? No, they fullfil a particular purpose in the game. Galka's are the brute force race, big bodies, big weapons, big armor. Their very appearence represents a Tank. 'Waltzes' are already in FFXIV, as a small race of adept magic users who's history is somewhat shrouded in mystery, known as Tarutaru.

Kachi wrote:
Just be forthcoming with what you really mean. You don't want to play as a Waltz, and you think that's plenty of reason to deprive the people that do.


You are right, I don't want to play as a Waltz, thats no reason to accuse me of wanting them not to be in the game simply to deprive people of this option. And your reason for including them? You simply like them, therefore they should be implemented. You want 'Waltzes' to be in the game, that's fine. I don't, which is also fine. Sure people may want to look like one, so give them a Black mage AF1 that covers their face from view, problem solved without having to create another race.

I feel like I forgot something.
____________________________




#38 Jun 12 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Ah, I didn't even think about Shades. That's an excellent point! Aren't there also some Shades/Fomors that don't have completely concealed bodies and heads?

Some other people have suggested that there simply be some kind of default "underwear" garment as there usually is that simply covers the entire body rather than just the unmentionables. Swimwear would be easy enough to fix :P

You just have to take a problem-solving approach, and not give up on an idea at the first hint of difficulty. There are usually simple solutions.

I have gotten several nice suggestions since starting these discussions, and I appreciate all the positive feedback. And I know I tend to rant and rave, but it's just my enthusiasm, so don't read me as being spiteful.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Jun 12 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
*
210 posts
Quote:
This poll is not producing very valid results


Just because you disagree with the majority of people who took your poll doesn't mean it's not valid. It's a poll. You put it there to find out what people thought, and you got your answer. Sure, some people want it as a race, but I'm willing to bet most people think it sounds nice on paper but there'd be no good way to put it in the game. We need races that are more flexible, not ones that are tied down to a specific job.

And the Black Waltzes were just three enemies that were Vivi-like with wings. Vivi was just a black mage, not a Black Waltz, and they were named "waltzes" because, like the way there are THREE of the enemies, waltzes are ballroom dances designed to triple time. Nice try, though, lol.

____________________________
R.I.P Teraud, Dragoon main on Seraph (2004-2007)
R.I.P. Atli, Blue Mage main on Seraph (2007-2008)
R.I.P. Silje, Beastmaster main on Odin (2008-2008)
R.I.P. My Final Fantasy XI Account forevahz

Back on ZAM for FFXIV!
#40 Jun 12 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
You're wrong on so many counts.

Quote:
Just because you disagree with the majority of people who took your poll doesn't mean it's not valid. It's a poll.


It's not valid for a couple of reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not I agree with the majority, but I'm guessing you don't really know a thing about research, experimental design, self-reporting error, etc. Given that, I'm going to say this in laymen's and hope it isn't lost on you. First of all, polls are generally not considered especially valid. That is particularly true when the poll is confusing to the people taking the poll, something which is obviously the case here, and as I will soon point out, not even you understood the poll correctly. Finally, many considerations have come into light after the poll started. Generally in ANY valid poll you do a test poll and try to address any potential problems or questions respondents will have. Obviously I didn't do that because this is a more casual poll.

I only say the responses are not valid because they aren't by the rules of good research design, and they should therefor be interpreted very loosely. The point of the poll was not to get good research, but to see if people were interested in this race, and while you seem to think that the results are bad because the majority doesn't want it, the fact is that the results are actually very good because a large percentage of respondents DO want to play as this race. Almost definitely more people want to play this race than already existing races like Galka, and to me that is a very good sign.

Quote:
You put it there to find out what people thought, and you got your answer. Sure, some people want it as a race, but I'm willing to bet most people think it sounds nice on paper but there'd be no good way to put it in the game.


There's already been good discussion on how to put it in the game. So far every question about potential problems has been addressed successfully.

Quote:
We need races that are more flexible, not ones that are tied down to a specific job.


If you had understood the poll you would realize that this race would not be tied down to a specific job at all. It would function just like any other race. This kind of misunderstanding skewed -at least- a few voters to vote "no" for that reason.

Quote:
And the Black Waltzes were just three enemies that were Vivi-like with wings. Vivi was just a black mage, not a Black Waltz, and they were named "waltzes" because, like the way there are THREE of the enemies, waltzes are ballroom dances designed to triple time. Nice try, though, lol.


Don't get smug with me even as you completely miss the point. I needed a name that wasn't confusing to people like "Black Mage" and that was the best suggestion so I used it. Yes, you're technically right, which really means absolutely nothing. This game will not be canonical with past FFs so the race can be called anything. I could have called them Zanzabarbarians and it wouldn't matter.

Would you feel better if I pointed to the Fomors in FFXI? As other people have pointed out, they are very much like the race I'm talking about. They have pitch black skin, glowy eyes, and hey, they take on all kinds of jobs. They really show without any reservation that they can be effectively implemented into FFXIV as a playable race. We can even call them Fomors or Shades if it makes you feel better.

Now if you have any legitimate arguments to make, fine, please do, but so far you're just a hair shy of being an ignorant troll.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Jun 12 2009 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
*
210 posts
I got what you were saying the first time, and the poll seems very straight forward so I don't see how anyone would misunderstand the poll. There were three choices for yes and one for no, and even with the three different choices for yes, the "no" option still got more votes percentage-wise. A poll is valid as being reflective of what the majority on a much grander scale would want. There's no other point to a poll, and surely you knew that when you started the thread. The poll may not be accurate in showing what every future-FFXIV player wants, but that's not a reason to say the poll would show opposite results if everyone took it. It's a possibility, but not a likely one.

I get that there are those who want to play a race that shows some form of evil for the mallgoths to express themselves, but a black formless race? How would character creation be since you'd really only get to choose the size? What happens if the "black mage" doesn't want to wear a pointy hat and instead goes with no hat, forcing the creators to give it some sort of shape, which would end up just making them a race of humes that look like they've had their .dat's screwed with to the point where you can't even see that there was any design involved at all? With the eyes, wouldn't it look too cartoony, when the other races attempt to look as realistic as possible?

I'll have to agree with you on one thing, I thought the Fomors looked cool, but they aren't personal beings, they're the spirits of former personal beings, and as such, you couldn't necessarily "create" the spirit of a former personal being, nor play them and have them be a part of the FFXIV storyline as a race of personal beings. They were character-less enemies, and the only way to have them really "fit" into FFXIV would be to have them be an added race with cities and culture, that are just pointlessly feature-less, which would be extremely lazy for the designers and too cartoonish to fit in still. It'd be awesome to play an undead creature in an other game, but unless you can pitch some actual good ideas as to how they'd be able to fit them into FFXIV while pleasing ALL players and not just less than half, I'm going to keep saying that they should not be in the game at all.
____________________________
R.I.P Teraud, Dragoon main on Seraph (2004-2007)
R.I.P. Atli, Blue Mage main on Seraph (2007-2008)
R.I.P. Silje, Beastmaster main on Odin (2008-2008)
R.I.P. My Final Fantasy XI Account forevahz

Back on ZAM for FFXIV!
#42 Jun 12 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Alright, first of all apologies if I got a bit snippy there.

Quote:
I got what you were saying the first time, and the poll seems very straight forward so I don't see how anyone would misunderstand the poll.


Multiple people were under the impression that this race would ONLY be able to be a Black Mage or Dark Knight. A job specific race would generally not be a popular idea.

Edit: to point out that the poll actually still reads that it is for a Black Mage/Dark Knight race.

Quote:

There were three choices for yes and one for no, and even with the three different choices for yes, the "no" option still got more votes percentage-wise.


Which is not at all an indication that it shouldn't be a race. Think about it. How many people would have been in favor of Tarutaru, Elvaan, Galka, and female-only Mithra if the ideas had been presented before the release of FFXI? In nearly all accounts, more people would have said "no." 15-20% of people want that as a playable race. That's more representation than some of the existing races have already (in a game with only 5 races, no less! 20% is 1/5th!)

So 50% or so saying no is actually nothing. That's actually about what I expected to get because I've seen this kind of negativity about new ideas a dozen times over, for better ideas and worse ideas. 50% of people would have voted "no" to Blue Mage. Trust me, only 50% is very good.

Quote:
A poll is valid as being reflective of what the majority on a much grander scale would want.


You clearly don't know enough about research design to comment, so I'm just going to ask that you not try to wing it. The poll was invalid, largely because self-reporting opt-out polls themselves are not especially valid, but also largely because I constructed it poorly if I were -trying- to get accurate results. I really wasn't. These results are good enough for me. I'm just trying to explain to you how the results should be interpreted because you don't seem to grasp what the data means.

Let's run with your "valid as the grander scale of majority" assertion. Ok, so tens of thousands of players want to play as this race. Even more think it's a fair enough idea. Half of the players don't like it, but it's assumed that roughly 0% of them won't play the game because of their addition.

I mean you seriously can't even begin to convince me that more people like Galkas, and in a game with subligar no less, than would like this race. You'd even be hard pressed to convince me that more people prefer Elvaan and Tarutaru.

Quote:
I get that there are those who want to play a race that shows some form of evil for the mallgoths to express themselves, but a black formless race?


That's just an ignorant thing to say. Many people find that design appealing for differing reasons. Some of us happen to think it's cute.

Quote:
How would character creation be since you'd really only get to choose the size?


See, I've already been over this once or twice. Different size. Different body shape (like with any race). Different hair. Different eye color and shape. And much of what constitutes as graphic character customization depends on gear.
Quote:

What happens if the "black mage" doesn't want to wear a pointy hat and instead goes with no hat, forcing the creators to give it some sort of shape, which would end up just making them a race of humes that look like they've had their .dat's screwed with to the point where you can't even see that there was any design involved at all?


Many people have suggested that it simply have a "bald" head, but it could also have hair. The Fomors in FFXI frequently have no head gear. Others have suggested that by default they are wearing some sort of hood that covers the top of their head. I mean, god forbid they have to give the head some shape so that the massive number of players who want this race can play it?
Quote:

With the eyes, wouldn't it look too cartoony, when the other races attempt to look as realistic as possible?


It would look no more cartoony than the moogles in FFXI at the very worst. If you make them look more like Fomor, then that becomes even less of an issue.

Quote:
I'll have to agree with you on one thing, I thought the Fomors looked cool, but they aren't personal beings, they're the spirits of former personal beings, and as such, you couldn't necessarily "create" the spirit of a former personal being, nor play them and have them be a part of the FFXIV storyline as a race of personal beings. They were character-less enemies, and the only way to have them really "fit" into FFXIV would be to have them be an added race with cities and culture, that are just pointlessly feature-less, which would be extremely lazy for the designers and too cartoonish to fit in still.


As has already been explained by the creators of FFXIV, it's a completely separate game and the races are different. Whatever you can say about the Fomor in FFXI does not have to apply to a similar race in FFXIV.

Quote:
It'd be awesome to play an undead creature in an other game, but unless you can pitch some actual good ideas as to how they'd be able to fit them into FFXIV while pleasing ALL players and not just less than half, I'm going to keep saying that they should not be in the game at all.


You can't please all of the players all of the time. If you rule out any race that even a significant portion of the gaming population is averse to, then you have a game with only playable humans and nothing else. Not all people were pleased with any of the races aside from Humes in FFXI, and there were probably a stray player or two that wished that there were no Humes either. People thought Galka were downright ugly. People hated the fact that Mithra were Female only. People thought Elvaan design was poor and didn't like their characteristics. People thought that Tarutaru looked creepy or deformed. I thought all of those things myself at some point or another.

Look, believe it or not, people get over it. They accept the fact that many players are glad that the race is there, and they learn to appreciate the diversity.

Every complaint you raised is something that all of the people who like the race are able to look past. And if you're not even going to play it, then why can't you? Afterall, at the end of the day, even a hated race like Galka gets accepted, even if only as the **** of many, many jokes. We had a GalkaHaters linkshell on my server, and others had Galka only LS. People still joke about the ugly furballs. And if people want to joke about Waltz/Shade/Fomor players as being soulless, goth, and emo, then I think Dark Knight players would sigh a sigh of relief for having a little of the heat taken off of them.

So I really hope that addresses your comments, and unless there are any NEW concerns that need to be addressed (which I will happily oblige), I'd like to turn the course of discussion in favor of people who do like the idea. People who don't are still welcome to vote "no."

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 7:12pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 Jun 12 2009 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
I decided to skip the pointless walls of text and just state that having the Waltzes as a playable race wouldn't be a smart move, since they're almost universally looked upon as Black Mages.


That being said, I would love for characters, should they become black mage-esque, to take on the appearance of them. (or at least a large floppy Black Mage hat that changes your appearance. (Soft shadowy face, glowing yellow eyes, etc.)

That being said, I doubt it would be implemented as it does not really fit into the visual scheme of XIV. (from what we've seen.)
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#44 Jun 12 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
They're only pointless if you skip them.

Had you read them, you might have seen the suggestion that they be much like the Fomor in FFXI, which are indisputably a doable match to the style. Simply making one of the eye options an oval-shape is basically the same thing.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 7:22pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Jun 12 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
777 posts
Torrence wrote:
[quote=Kachi]You are right, consciously that parallel isn't drawn, but subconsciously folks are going to choose something that they have always liked. You'll often find that folks who like Taru also liked Hobbits and gully Dwarves and Kender, and other similar representations of that *kind* of small and cute creature, and the same with Elves and Elvaan. I mean you really don't think that people see the similarities between Elves in LOTR and Elvaan in FFXI?

:)

*shrug* Just as often as you find that true, you'll find that it isn't true.

In WoW I played a female Dwarf and female Tauren. In DnD, I played a female Half-Orc.

In FFXI, I played a Human... Why did I play a human? I didn't want to be a *** doll (Mithra); the idea of playing a male character squicked me (Galka); Tarus are too childish; And I'll be blunt, I've always been a bit of a racist towards elves.

I was left with humans.

*shrug* You aren't all wrong though. I would've played a Galka in a heartbeat if the race had females in it.
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#46 Jun 13 2009 at 1:14 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
161 posts
Kachi wrote:
I mean, god forbid they have to give the head some shape so that the massive number of players who want this race can play it?


A bit of an overstatement wouldn't you say? From the posts on this thread you are the only one defending them.
____________________________




#47 Jun 13 2009 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
88 posts
Kachi, I don't get why you're so adamant about this being a playable race, yet you keep talking down to everybody else. You're also the only one defending it, by the way.

Quote:
There's already been good discussion on how to put it in the game.

Where's this "discussion"? All I see is everybody against your idea, with you standing behind it like a brick wall.

Quote:
Look, you can harp on customization, but just look at FFXI. Where's the customization there? There could easily be more customization for Waltzes than what's present in the game that's already out.


Moot point. Customization on a faceless character still won't be close to that of the other characters. Not saying there aren't enough variables, but all in all your options in total would be extreamely reduced depending on how SE handles character creation in this game. And what doesn't have more customization than FFXI? You have freaking 8 models per ***/race and two variants of each. There's 128 character models total to pick in the whole game.

Quote:
Cait Sith was a robot.


Cat Sith is just a little black cat with a cape. He was a cat riding a robot. A giant moogle robot, at that. Imagine how popular a either a tiny cat, a moogle robot, or a cat riding a moogle robot would be. That'd be the most played race in the **** game.

Also, the black mages of FF9 were no less than robots. They're pretty much Cardians. That also seems to be the only cannon that you're following. Speaking of which...

Quote:
This game will not be canonical with past FFs


And pretty much none of the Final Fantasys are! Just because it worked in FF9, doesn't mean it'll work here. The whole "Black Mage" thing in every Final Fantasy game, with the exception of 9, is just humans with their faces covered in darkness. That's it. It started with FF1, and it kinda just became a staple image of the series. FF9 was a huge throw-back to the series after the departure of 7 and 8, so they decided to add it in. It's a cartoonish appearance, it's cute, it's popular, but it's just a bunch of dudes in pointy hats that block the light very very well!

Quote:
Which is not at all an indication that it shouldn't be a race. Think about it. How many people would have been in favor of Tarutaru, Elvaan, Galka, and female-only Mithra if the ideas had been presented before the release of FFXI? In nearly all accounts, more people would have said "no." 15-20% of people want that as a playable race. That's more representation than some of the existing races have already (in a game with only 5 races, no less! 20% is 1/5th!)


You clearly don't know enough about research design to comment, so I'm just going to ask that you not try to wing it. Stop pulling numbers out of your ***. You disagree with the results of your poll, so you say polls don't matter and make up random percentages.

I could go on and on with the knit picking of everybody's posts like you've been doing, but I think I got my point across. You're extreamely contridicting, don't know what you're talking about, and are ignorant.

And for the record, I think a fomor type of race would be cool. I just don't see it working in the environment that I'm picturing FFXIV to be. I could always be wrong, and it could work out perfect. They're pretty much an undead and negative version of the current races. However, that already causes a problem. Sure, undead races and dark races work in other games, by it could add a lot of wierd tension to the game. Making the race just a faceless version of the other races with some stat differences makes it feel like a cheap cop-out. Making them a dark version of other races is going to make them look too evil, which will do a few things. It'd make the game feel like there is a villianous type of race going on, which won't work well if the game isn't going to be faction based, like I really hope it isn't. Ultimately though, it'd just attract all the young kids looking to play the cool character. Just look at what happened with Blood Elves.

If they were added, I'd like to see them work something like this. Make the race very different from the others. Make them a bit smaller than humes and look sorta cutesy. They could be spirits who have unfinished buisness. They'd have a whole city, their storyline would be trying to get the other races to accept them, etc.















____________________________
(singing) (cat)
Kujata, transfered from Ifrit
BRD75 MNK75
Upcoming PUP

#48 Jun 13 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
A bit of an overstatement wouldn't you say? From the posts on this thread you are the only one defending them.


You tell me? Does it matter if I'm the only one vocally defending it when 15% of the votes are from people who want to play as that race? I mean, you really don't even need a poll if you're any kind of fan of Final Fantasy to know that many people will like the idea.

Quote:
Where's this "discussion"? All I see is everybody against your idea, with you standing behind it like a brick wall.


Other places. I made a similar post on gamefaqs, for example.

And you don't see everybody against it in the polls.

As for me being the only one defending it, I think I'm saying all that needs to be said to address the arguments against it. I don't really see much need for other people to restate the counterpoints I've already made. Besides, I like a lively debate, and most people don't.

Quote:
Cat Sith is just a little black cat with a cape. He was a cat riding a robot. A giant moogle robot, at that. Imagine how popular a either a tiny cat, a moogle robot, or a cat riding a moogle robot would be. That'd be the most played race in the **** game.


Actually, in FF7 Cait Sith is also a robot. Both the moogle, and the cat are robots controlled by Reeve. This is explained subtly in FF7 and more clearly in Dirge of Cerberus.

But I'm not sure what your point is. I said that it might not be a bad idea. Though the fact that Cait Sith is controlled by someone remotely while the Black Mages in FF9 are sentient beings might propose some in-game canonical problems. Cait Sith as it appears in FFXI would probably not be especially popular. But seeing as how canon doesn't really matter, there's no reason there couldn't be a race of Cait Sith that weren't robots, and I think people might like them even if they didn't ride around on robots.

Really, I'm not the kind of person who would protest such an addition if people want that. But I'm not a fan of it personally so I'm not going to argue strongly for it, either.

Quote:
And pretty much none of the Final Fantasys are! Just because it worked in FF9, doesn't mean it'll work here. The whole "Black Mage" thing in every Final Fantasy game, with the exception of 9, is just humans with their faces covered in darkness. That's it. It started with FF1, and it kinda just became a staple image of the series. FF9 was a huge throw-back to the series after the departure of 7 and 8, so they decided to add it in. It's a cartoonish appearance, it's cute, it's popular, but it's just a bunch of dudes in pointy hats that block the light very very well!


Ok, so explain to me how any of that means that they shouldn't be a playable race? Are you missing the point of why I said that? "Because it worked there doesn't mean it will work here," is not an argument. Get to the part where you explain why you think it won't work.

Quote:
Stop pulling numbers out of your ***. You disagree with the results of your poll, so you say polls don't matter and make up random percentages.


Uhhhh... those numbers are taken directly from the poll.

All I said was that the poll was not especially valid, which it isn't. That doesn't mean it's -completely- invalid, but it does mean there other are things to consider when interpreting the results.

It's kind of hard not to know these basic aspects of research design and have a masters degree. Don't try to argue with me on this. I will completely school you.

Now yes, I can be a real **** when people test my patience. Generally I try to be affable, but I am a very intelligent person and at times that makes me condescending and sarcastic when I have to address fallacy after fallacy after fallacy. You think I'm bad now, get me started on a subject like religion or politics. A favored saying of mine is, ********** civility and **** you!"

I like to argue. Maybe I'm half troll. I don't know. But you give me the bait of a logical fallacy and I can't resist but to leap at it and sink my teeth in. Without further digression...

Quote:
I just don't see it working in the environment that I'm picturing FFXIV to be. I could always be wrong, and it could work out perfect.


See, all I'm asking for is a little open-mindedness. Thank you.

Quote:
They're pretty much an undead and negative version of the current races. However, that already causes a problem. Sure, undead races and dark races work in other games, by it could add a lot of wierd tension to the game. Making the race just a faceless version of the other races with some stat differences makes it feel like a cheap cop-out. Making them a dark version of other races is going to make them look too evil, which will do a few things.


A valid point. Personally I don't think they should be exactly like Fomor in this respect. I do think they should have a unique body shape and not be silhouettes of other races.

Quote:
Ultimately though, it'd just attract all the young kids looking to play the cool character.


Well, I think when your problem is that it's "too cool," you just run with it and try to make the rest of the new races that much cooler. I'm sure there will be no shortage of Humes, Mithra and Elvaan regardless, and doubtless there would at least be carryovers from XI who wanted to remain Tarutaru or Galka at the very least.

Quote:
If they were added, I'd like to see them work something like this. Make the race very different from the others. Make them a bit smaller than humes and look sorta cutesy. They could be spirits who have unfinished buisness. They'd have a whole city, their storyline would be trying to get the other races to accept them, etc.


To end on a positive note, I agree with this. It's very much like they were portrayed in FF9. The real challenge, as many people have already stated, is in finding the happy medium between cutesy and realistic (somewhere between how they appear in FFT/FF9 and Fomor in FFXI), and in doing so maintain a relative level of customization. That said, I think those aren't insurmountable obstacles at all.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Jun 14 2009 at 12:54 AM Rating: Decent
*
210 posts
Why is fighting for this idea such a big deal?

If you want to suggest it, send the suggestion to Square Enix. If others like it, they can send it too.

There's no point in being so aggressive about it. You like the idea, and those who have posted in this thread don't. Clearly no one's opinion on it is going to change, especially with such a vague idea.

So far all I've really gotten from your posts is that you want a race where everyone is dark and faceless. That alone will change no one's mind. Use the time you're spending writing these posts attacking everyone else to come up with ideas as to how that could be put into the game without sacrificing the overall theme.

So, I have some questions for you.

Would the race be flexible career-wise like any other race, or would there be emphasis on a certain career based on starting stats, etc.?
Would they look like fomors or have their own features that make them unique, and if so, what?
Would they be on the same side as the rest of the races in present-day Eorzea, despite the history of their relationships with other races, thus allowing them to fight together with them for the storyline?
If they're not on the same side, would they cause a dispute between races, both story-wise and player-wise, like in World of Warcraft or Warhammer Online, and if they do would there be other "darker" races to go along with that?
Would they be able to be part of the same storyline or would the storyline of FFXIV be altered for the race (for example, the archduke in Jeuno probably wouldn't ask for the assistance of a fomor)?
Would they have their own explorable city? If so, would the city have a darker theme, and what would make the city stand out?

Feel free to add in more details and ideas aside from these questions, as well.
____________________________
R.I.P Teraud, Dragoon main on Seraph (2004-2007)
R.I.P. Atli, Blue Mage main on Seraph (2007-2008)
R.I.P. Silje, Beastmaster main on Odin (2008-2008)
R.I.P. My Final Fantasy XI Account forevahz

Back on ZAM for FFXIV!
#50 Jun 14 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
25 posts
VIVI is #1 !!!
#51 Jun 14 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
Kachi wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
I decided to skip the pointless walls of text and just state that having the Waltzes as a playable race wouldn't be a smart move, since they're almost universally looked upon as Black Mages.


They're only pointless if you skip them.


I felt bad and read the thread to see if that was true.


And now I dislike you for robbing me of the time it took to read this pointless thread.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 15 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (15)