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#1 Jun 12 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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So this topic came up in another thread. How should the end game progression work in this game? Should it take a wow approach where every expansion pack new end game content comes out that complelty replaces the old? Personalyl I hate that but someone pointed out thats it better then haing the same content endlessly.

Personally (and Ill use WoW as my basis since I actually made it to end game in wow) Id like to see a system where you cant access the new end game content unless youve completed previous end game content. So if You raided your **** off to get tier 3 you can move on to get tier 4 and theresn o **** hurt that someone who just showed up and never did tier 3 can get the raid gear. And it keeps a place for the old end game content and keeps it vital and useful for players who havent yet done it.

When I first started wow TBC was around the corner. TBC came out when I was level 58. Immediatly there was a huge rush to outlands and content in old Azeroth I had wanted to see I could never find a group to do. I just followed the crowd to outlands and did all the outlands stuff instead. There has to be some happy medium somewhere in the center that allows for new content without outdating your old content. I know theres a new crop of wow players whove never seen old Azeroth or Outlands now. Thats just sad.


Edited, Jun 12th 2009 2:28pm by mezlabor
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#2 Jun 12 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I do not think it should be quite so gear dependant.

Some gear would be nice but more leveling and quests/missions would be perfect.

I personally like achieving things in FFXI. To finally make it to jeuno after almost dying 13 1/2 billion times running through rolanberry @ lvl 20.5 feels... epic
#3 Jun 12 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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I don't see any problem with the current basic philosophy of endgame in FFXI, although I guess I never experienced that much of it.

Quote:
Id like to see a system where you cant access the new end game content unless youve completed previous end game content. So if You raided your **** off to get tier 3 you can move on to get tier 4 and theresn o **** hurt that someone who just showed up and never did tier 3 can get the raid gear. And it keeps a place for the old end game content and keeps it vital and useful for players who havent yet done it.

My problem with this is that expansions aren't just about new content, they're about new types of content. Someone might have no interest in the old style of content but might be very interested in something new. This was definitely the case with FFXI and its expansions.

If we had to finish CoP to unlock the final content of ToAU, that would defeat the whole point of ToAU, not to mention spark mass outrage.
#4 Jun 12 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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If we had to finish CoP to unlock the final content of ToAU, that would defeat the whole point of ToAU, not to mention spark mass outrage.
I dont think theres anyway se can avoid mass outrage at this point....
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#5 Jun 12 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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As long as there is new content and some sort of progression I don't care what they do. I don't mind the WoW way of doing it but I honestly think they should have created "heroic" versions of all of their dungeons and raids to scale with the current max level. That way nothing goes to waste as it does right now.
#6 Jun 12 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Default
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mezlabor wrote:
So this topic came up in another thread. How should the end game progression work in this game? Should it take a wow approach where every expansion pack new end game content comes out that complelty replaces the old? Personalyl I hate that but someone pointed out thats it better then haing the same content endlessly.


FFXI have not the same end content endlessly, they have added a variety of end game content over the years, also some items takes a lot longer to get (aka relics) and thus need to do those events several years in order to obtain your item.

Quote:
Personally (and Ill use WoW as my basis since I actually made it to end game in wow) Id like to see a system where you cant access the new end game content unless youve completed previous end game content. So if You raided your **** off to get tier 3 you can move on to get tier 4 and theresn o **** hurt that someone who just showed up and never did tier 3 can get the raid gear. And it keeps a place for the old end game content and keeps it vital and useful for players who havent yet done it.


That is probably true for FFXI, but for WoW that system wouldn’t work.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 2:40pm by Maldavian
#7 Jun 12 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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The difficulty with end-game content is that it has a tendency to get old. If you've cleared it a certain number of times, feeling that you're being forced to go back and do it again quite frequently doesn't sit well with people. The best way to make it feel forced is to not offer any significant alternatives.

Sadly, it has been demonstrated that people will go where the gear is. If the best to be had is implemented in the second year of the games lifespan and nothing else is offered by the fifth year, people will still be running that second year addition three years later but the question is, are they enjoying themselves? Are they running the content because they're enjoying the content, or are they running the content for the reward? Or in other words, are they doing something that they find boring, dull, and/or tedious for the sake of the reward, or are they happily entertained for the majority of their game experience? That becomes entirely subjective because people have different criteria for what they consider to be entertaining.

The safe bet, however, is that most people don't enjoy constant repetition. Variety is good. How do you justify rewarding people with the "best" for repeating content that they knew like the back of their hand two years ago while limiting the reward for people who are pushing through new challenges and new experiences as they become available? Who is more deserving of a reward?

I guess that's the dilemma. Since I personally don't play an MMO for the sake of getting gear so much as for the sake of experiencing the content, I'm perfectly happy with a progression system to end-game that leads to diversity and escalating reward. I don't particularly care what content I'm not running so long as I'm entertained in the content that I am running.
#8 Jun 12 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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mezlabor wrote:

Personally (and Ill use WoW as my basis since I actually made it to end game in wow) Id like to see a system where you cant access the new end game content unless youve completed previous end game content. So



The requirements to qualify as "finished" would have to be rather modest.

The biggest problem with FFXI is the fact that the level cap can never be raised for fear of breaking the game. It's an unfortunate side effect to an otherwise good feature that sadly was not foreseen 7 years ago. That leads to all sorts of other limitations, such as gear can only have so many x stats on it because if too many good pieces are out there, it will break the game.

I don't agree that raising the level cap is necessarily a one-size-fits-all cure for the rut that FFXI is in, but the lack of that flexibility because you might break the game definitely stunts development and that's the argument you hear a lot in the feedback forum.

I'd like to see a system where the old areas were still viable through having rewards that aren't necessarily tied to weapons or armor, but gets capped off when a new expansion comes out. So if the next expansion were to introduce level 80, then the old areas would still cap out at 75, you could still merit there at 75 and would still want to because there are things that you want to get, but the new content would add challenges that are unique to a character with level 80 abilities. When a level 80 character returns to a level 75 zone, they would be capped similar to how it currently works in places like the Empty.
#9 Jun 12 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
mezlabor wrote:

Personally (and Ill use WoW as my basis since I actually made it to end game in wow) Id like to see a system where you cant access the new end game content unless youve completed previous end game content. So



The requirements to qualify as "finished" would have to be rather modest.

The biggest problem with FFXI is the fact that the level cap can never be raised for fear of breaking the game. It's an unfortunate side effect to an otherwise good feature that sadly was not foreseen 7 years ago. That leads to all sorts of other limitations, such as gear can only have so many x stats on it because if too many good pieces are out there, it will break the game.

I don't agree that raising the level cap is necessarily a one-size-fits-all cure for the rut that FFXI is in, but the lack of that flexibility because you might break the game definitely stunts development and that's the argument you hear a lot in the feedback forum.

I'd like to see a system where the old areas were still viable through having rewards that aren't necessarily tied to weapons or armor, but gets capped off when a new expansion comes out. So if the next expansion were to introduce level 80, then the old areas would still cap out at 75, you could still merit there at 75 and would still want to because there are things that you want to get, but the new content would add challenges that are unique to a character with level 80 abilities. When a level 80 character returns to a level 75 zone, they would be capped similar to how it currently works in places like the Empty.


You can have alternative character advancement not just threw levels, such as merit points system, or in case of Everquest advanced ability system. The fundamental difference between WoW and FFXI is that WoW has adopted the gear progression path whereas FFXI has gone for slow paced noninflational gear progress.

You can immediately see that in WoW you can skip passed all the old content and jump into the level 80 content immediately, whereas in FFXI, you can’t really pass everything, you need to do all of the aspect of the game.

Also as we know WoW has adopted the MMO towards people that have little time on their hand to play the game and also doing it more skill based rather than time consuming. FFXI has adopted the opposite. You need to invest a lot of time during long periods of time to “get on top”.
#10 Jun 12 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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I woudl like to see a system where end game progression is based around your characters skills and abilities more so then gear (I'm hoping this will be the case with their character growth system whatever it turns out to be).
Quote:

How do you justify rewarding people with the "best" for repeating content that they knew like the back of their hand two years ago while limiting the reward for people who are pushing through new challenges and new experiences as they become available? Who is more deserving of a reward?
I see your point but what I suggested I feel would eliminate that. People who had been doing the same thing for 2 years would be the first people moving on to new content meanwhile the people who hadnt finished the old stuff would have to. Maybe not even raid out the tier sets, maybe do like they did for TK attunement. You had to go back and do alot of the old azeroth end game stuff before you could enter tempest keep (the raid) I think they removed the atunements tho did they? I left awhile ago, around when sunwell hit.
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#11 Jun 12 2009 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:

You can have alternative character advancement not just threw levels, such as merit points system, or in case of Everquest advanced ability system. The fundamental difference between WoW and FFXI is that WoW has adopted the gear progression path whereas FFXI has gone for slow paced noninflational gear progress.

You can immediately see that in WoW you can skip passed all the old content and jump into the level 80 content immediately, whereas in FFXI, you can’t really pass everything, you need to do all of the aspect of the game.


The merit system is kind of a drag though. It's a classic example of a really good idea, and really boring implementation. The endless level 75 merit grind is one thing that I would not like to repeat.

I agree that skipping the content for 70 and jumping to 80 is a poor implementation too, which is why I suggested that cap on areas. You wouldn't be able to go to the level 75+ areas, battles, and story until you fulfilled the requirements of a level 75 character, so you wouldn't really be missing anything at all. And if you ever wanted to go back, you wouldn't be omgwtfbbq leet, you would be just another synced down 75.

This way the game can keep going forward, rather than staying in one spot and never *really* seeing anything new. Even now the expansions for XI are just reskinned and renamed versions of the same old thing.

#12 Jun 12 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I would prefer Endgame Content was more like Planes of Power and the like from EQ1, something similar to flagging to get a person to the next step in the end game. I wouldn't say you need a 72 person raid to get said flags, but a group of 6 or so should be able to do most flags while an alliance of 18 might be needed to get through the other flags. At each step, there is plenty of useful gear so you would farm one area and then move into the next when ready, or go back and farm areas that you already cleared.
#13 Jun 12 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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I think that raising the level cap is only an artifical solution to the problem. It isn't necessary and I think it'd create more problems that it'd solve. IMO all MMO's should try to aim for what FFXI tried to accomplish (emphasis on the word 'tried'), mainly horizontal gear progression.

The one massive problem FFXI's endgame has stems from as early as the implementation of RoTZ expansion. SE didn't have enough experience from endgame at the time, and one can clearly see the effects even today.

RoTZ implemented a lot of gear and endgame events. However the balance was Way off of what it should have been so that SE could have created a healthy endgame environment. And I'm not only talking about camping kings here.

From that era we have the Peacock charm (lvl33, +10acc), elemental staves (lvl51, best mage weapons), acc rings (lvl40, only few rings at 75 beat them in stats), adaman hauberk, haubergeon, defending ring, relics.. All those things and many more completely dropped the endgame off the balance, almost forever.

SE didn't create vertical gear progression we see in WoW up to 75, but added completely broken items for too low level that are unrivaled even at the level cap. That is a horrible gear progression.

At 75 some of the gear also had way too uber stats for horizontal progression to have worked. If they made the equipment any better it'd be "too good" in FFXI stats.

But fortunately it only affected few jobs. For example DRG didn't get much out of RoTZ in terms of endgame rewards, but the situation was fixed later in CoP and ToAU. DRG gained a lot of equipment that beat the earlier ones however without throwing the job off the balance.

WAR and mages weren't that lucky, though. Because few pieces of gear were so good already, nothing that came after could beat them in stats. If they got the same handling as DRG did, there wouldn't be as much of a problems nowadays.

Events also weren't really done to be as long-lasting as they are today. Dynamis's 3½ hours of boredom really makes me rip my hair out of my head, and everyone who has been to FFXI endgame knows about the fun that is Kings.

Now, if SE had created the endgame structure Right from the start, with long lasting, relatively short events that used instancing and world spawns that were handled better (like Dark ixion and Sandworm today, maybe), as well as created some intermediate rewards on top of the best ones with lower drop rate (Einherjar ampoules, Nyzul weapons) I think they'd have the best kind of endgame there is in an MMO to date. With all the aforementioned problems this isn't the case though, but it very well could have been (and could be in the case of FFXIV).
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#14 Jun 12 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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mezlabor wrote:
I woudl like to see a system where end game progression is based around your characters skills and abilities more so then gear (I'm hoping this will be the case with their character growth system whatever it turns out to be).
Quote:

How do you justify rewarding people with the "best" for repeating content that they knew like the back of their hand two years ago while limiting the reward for people who are pushing through new challenges and new experiences as they become available? Who is more deserving of a reward?
I see your point but what I suggested I feel would eliminate that. People who had been doing the same thing for 2 years would be the first people moving on to new content meanwhile the people who hadnt finished the old stuff would have to. Maybe not even raid out the tier sets, maybe do like they did for TK attunement. You had to go back and do alot of the old azeroth end game stuff before you could enter tempest keep (the raid) I think they removed the atunements tho did they? I left awhile ago, around when sunwell hit.


They did remove attunements, in fact they have now a policy as to NOT have any kind of attunements for instances to make it accessible to all and everyone. Not really a surprise though, since WoW will always progress towards being more and more casual, and every obstacle you can remove or retune to make the game easier, they will implement it.

Just look at the WoW’s patch history and you will see the red thread running through all of the patches, and that is to make the game more accessible, more easy and less time consuming.
#15 Jun 12 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that the QUALITY of equipment, rather than the QUANTITY is what is important here. I think that the designers should spend the time to create fewer but very well thought out pieces of equipment that have a wide range of uses, rather than implementing a set of armor that has 2/5 useful/good pieces. Is +10acc more beneficial to your character or is +5acc +5att more to your liking? That way, when they add an expansion/update, they can make armor that is useful in other situations with slightly different usable stats, each piece doesnt necessarily need to get more 'powerful' I want epic pieces of gear to more or less stay epic by instead adding suitable alternatives further down the road, but not to make them obsolete.

If its like WOWs progression where everything is constantly getting better and better, count me out. How boring. I want to feel like Im working towards something for a reason, not so that it could be replaced within a few months. If I wanted everybody to be the same, I could just run around in lvl 7 leather armor.
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#16 Jun 12 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:

SE didn't create vertical gear progression we see in WoW up to 75, but added completely broken items for too low level that are unrivaled even at the level cap. That is a horrible gear progression.


I especially liked this part, but your whole post was right on the money. This was the biggest failure and it had a domino effect on the entire system. I really hope they learned their lesson in this regard.

And what makes no sense is that they were making games for a decade before FFXI came out, and at some point just threw almost everything they knew about progression through levels out the window.

It's mind-boggling.
#17 Jun 12 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Thats sad to hear. And I do agree Maldavian that wow is moving more and more casual. As a result i think they are removing some of the thigns that made that game epic. I'll use the dreadsteed quest as an example. Back in the day it took some effort. A long quest chain that culiminates in a five man instance. You need to clear out a large section of the instance (and down two bosses) to get to the altar where you can perform the ritual that kicks off the final event. You open a portal and out poor scores of demons, after fighting off the demons for 5 or 10 minutes the boss comes out and you take him down. The whole thing is alot of fun gives you a real epic feeling. I did it at 60 a day or two after tbc came out it was hard but I found people that wanted to do it for a lock in their guild and they took me along. It was great one of my cherished memories of wow. And its gone now. The dreadsteed mount is now a level 61 trainable. New warlocks will never expereince it. I have my memories and I dont regret doing it but I regret that my steed means alittle less now then it did when I was playing and new locks will never see the coolest quest for locks in that game.
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#18 Jun 12 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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It is sad that their incompetence in 2004 almost ruined the rest of the game from that point on. After seeing what they've done after that, though, I have all the reasons to believe that in XIV they can hit right to the bullseye or at least very close to it. As long as the first expansion doesn't repeat the 2004 fiasco.
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#19 Jun 12 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Foreverdrg wrote:
I think that the QUALITY of equipment, rather than the QUANTITY is what is important here. I think that the designers should spend the time to create fewer but very well thought out pieces of equipment that have a wide range of uses, rather than implementing a set of armor that has 2/5 useful/good pieces. Is +10acc more beneficial to your character or is +5acc +5att more to your liking? That way, when they add an expansion/update, they can make armor that is useful in other situations with slightly different usable stats, each piece doesnt necessarily need to get more 'powerful' I want epic pieces of gear to more or less stay epic by instead adding suitable alternatives further down the road, but not to make them obsolete.

If its like WOWs progression where everything is constantly getting better and better, count me out. How boring. I want to feel like Im working towards something for a reason, not so that it could be replaced within a few months. If I wanted everybody to be the same, I could just run around in lvl 7 leather armor.


That is the difference between WoW and FFXI. In FFXI you have to invest a lot of time to collect that gear, whilst in WoW, if you are skilled you can get it extremely fast, or not so skilled, you can get gear that have a little less item level then the best, meaning you _feel_ you have as good gear as the best.

Again WoW is not made for long "time" investment/reward, or working towards a goal under long periods of time. It's made so that you can pick it up play it for 2 or 3 months and reach the top, and feel nice now I have "finished" the game and wait for that reset button from Blizzard that will make you do the same thing again. The feel of accomplishment is rewarded at a much faster pace to cater its casual player base, whereas in FFXI the feel of accomplishment, aka getting the best gear might take you several years. But once you get it, you will stand out a lot from new players or players that don’t have time to play the game a lot.

At the end it boils down to your choice of player style.


Edited, Jun 12th 2009 3:38pm by Maldavian
#20 Jun 12 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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And what makes no sense is that they were making games for a decade before FFXI came out, and at some point just threw almost everything they knew about progression through levels out the window.


You have to understand i'm sure they didn't expect it to happen. They probably didn't expect the game to last that long or have such a following it would be an issue. Things weren't moving quite as quickly when they were designing the game.

On top of that they designed the game that way and then added an expansion or two before they realized their problem. At that point the game was so massive in scope to change the game required a complete overhaul and their declining subscription base probably wasn't enough to do it for. Do you change the transmition and overhaul the engine on a slowly aging car you know won't make it any better, just more reliable? Probably not.

I don't blame them for anything they did. I think they made the best out of a bad situation but trying to overhaul a game is no simple task, a lot of endgame stuff would need to be changed, it might be 1-2 years of work just so they can what... add more levels?

#21 Jun 12 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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On top of that they designed the game that way and then added an expansion or two before they realized their problem. At that point the game was so massive in scope to change the game required a complete overhaul and their declining subscription base probably wasn't enough to do it for. Do you change the transmition and overhaul the engine on a slowly aging car you know won't make it any better, just more reliable? Probably not.


I think he means that they didn't realize it when making those expansions or two, and only later.
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#22 Jun 12 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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mezlabor wrote:

Thats sad to hear. And I do agree Maldavian that wow is moving more and more casual. As a result i think they are removing some of the thigns that made that game epic. I'll use the dreadsteed quest as an example. Back in the day it took some effort. A long quest chain that culiminates in a five man instance. You need to clear out a large section of the instance (and down two bosses) to get to the altar where you can perform the ritual that kicks off the final event. You open a portal and out poor scores of demons, after fighting off the demons for 5 or 10 minutes the boss comes out and you take him down. The whole thing is alot of fun gives you a real epic feeling. I did it at 60 a day or two after tbc came out it was hard but I found people that wanted to do it for a lock in their guild and they took me along. It was great one of my cherished memories of wow. And its gone now. The dreadsteed mount is now a level 61 trainable. New warlocks will never expereince it. I have my memories and I dont regret doing it but I regret that my steed means alittle less now then it did when I was playing and new locks will never see the coolest quest for locks in that game.


This is part of that whole choice versus no choice thing though. The quest you described is still there, you just don't HAVE to do it if you don't have a group to do it with. My most recent character is a Paladin and the Charger is the same way. I didn't do the quest, I honestly just bought the mount because I didn't have the time nor inclination to bother my guild to run around with me to gather what I needed. And let me tell you, the money it costs is nothing to sniff at.

I read up on the quest and decided that it would take me a week at least to get it done, because I would have to work around all my friends' raiding schedules and etc and it was just a better choice *for me* to do a little bit of extra mining and buy it. It took me two days to get up enough money rather than a week of trying to get help.

It's just choice rather than forcing an issue. If the requirements were a little less harsh, i.e. there was an option where I wouldn't *need* a full party to do some of the things, well that would have been better than just outright buying it, yes.

But at least there was an option so people weren't getting stuck waiting for others. That's a major failing of XI and I'd like to see XIV steer away from that kind of content.

#23 Jun 12 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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mezlabor wrote:
Personally (and Ill use WoW as my basis since I actually made it to end game in wow) Id like to see a system where you cant access the new end game content unless youve completed previous end game content.

I don't think that's a very good idea. You can't force players to enjoy themselves. If the players want to try old content then they'll do it without requiring it of them. If players want to go straight to new content then why would you want to force them through a pointless time waster?

I'd like to see 2 changes made to MMORPG end game

1. Curtail straight gear progression. There need to be much less straight up upgrades. The new set of gear shouldn't make the old set completely obsolete. This creates a silly situation where most players are raiding not because they enjoy it, but expressly to get gear. Yet it's a carrot on a stick. They work so hard to get gear, but in a short time none of that gear matters, because the new gear is better. It also creates the problem of getting gear to get gear. Content needs to be more open and not so linear in choice. I should have to raid dungeon one to get good enough to raid dungeon 2 to get good enough gear that I can finally raid the only dungeon I cared about, dungeon 3.

What I would like to see is more horizontal/lateral progression of gear. If you're a DPS class you shouldn't always be receiving gear that just makes you better at dealing DPS in the exact same way. It only seems like your making progress, but in actuality the DPS upgrade you get is offset by mobs being put out with more armor and more health. Relatively, you are in the exact same spot you were before. Horizontal progression takes more creativity to implement, but solves many of the problems with straight vertical progression. By horizontal progression I mean, as an example, maybe your tank paladin could earn gear that turns him into a respectable DPS. Or maybe it offers him options where he can tank through straight up damage reduction or choose gear that lets him heal himself more to offset damage. You should get interesting choices.


2. Less emphasis on end game. There should be so many fun and interesting things to do while leveling that it doesn't feel like a grind. Players shouldn't trudging through levels to get to the reward which is end game, only to find out end game is raiding and farming over and over again. I really like FFXI's level capped content. Give max level players way to earn rewards by trying out lower level content. I like having the different limitations and strengths each level cap provided. Strategies that worked at max level wouldn't work at level 30, and that helped keep things fresh. I also thing it builds a stronger community and help new players by not only devoted more time to content they can see sooner, but letting the high and low players mix, so you don't get as many clique group or at least as strong.
#24 Jun 12 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Id like to see end game not be a second career. I hate that about mmos. To get anywhere in endgame you need to go through an interview process to get into a good raid guild and then you have another boss, another friggin job. I have a career I have to work hard in real life I dont want my game becoming work too.
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#25 Jun 12 2009 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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I really do like the progress to the endgame better than the endgame itself, so from my point of view SE could really flesh low and midgame out more (while making the leveling process a bit longer than usual? Or am I becoming crazy here suggesting this? lol)
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#26 Jun 12 2009 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I think allegory really hit home here. Content updates shouldn't be limited only to "end game". It should be an update to the entire world. Characters should be able to scale down (a la level sync) and reunite with players in different areas to mix things up. Those different areas should be getting updated just as often as the high-end content to keep the whole game fresh. That's something I think FFXIV is on its way to addressing; I think we'll see a lot of paradigms being shifted around as more info gets released.
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#27 Jun 12 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree there the most fun I have in an mmo is actually the grind up to cap and not really cap itself. I tend to get bored running the same thing day after day.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 3:51pm by mezlabor
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#28 Jun 12 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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mezlabor wrote:
Id like to see end game not be a second career. I hate that about mmos. To get anywhere in endgame you need to go through an interview process to get into a good raid guild and then you have another boss, another friggin job. I have a career I have to work hard in real life I dont want my game becoming work too.


In fairness, those processes were implemented to address something that no MMO developer can ever fully address: the human factor. The ideal situation would be one where every player on a particular server who was interested in end-game would take the initiative, decide what role they wanted to fill, learn about ways to contribute to the team's success within the context of that role, and then put themselves forward to the different existing groups (assuming they didn't want to form their own). In that sense, it would be easy for leaders/officers of those groups to decide if that particular role was necessary in their group or not. No? Sorry...we wouldn't have a spot for you in our roster. Yes? Sure, join up. We're running <x> tonight at <time>.

Unfortunately, that's rarely the case. You get people who join end-game groups with no thought to what they bring to the group and every thought to what the group can bring to them. You get people who don't understand that sometimes they have to sacrifice some of their individuality for the sake of performance or the content becomes excessively difficult. You get people who grossly overestimate their own understanding of end-game and their ego prevents them from developing into a solid contributor. In short, people forget that they're essentially trying to get a spot on a team, and that you can't expect an entire team to be willing to stagnate because too many of the members aren't contributing on par with what is required.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 1:17pm by AureliusSir
#29 Jun 12 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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I much prefer a horizontal endgame progression like XI's over a more linear one where new content makes older content obsolete. It gives people more options allowing them to participate in the events they most enjoy rather than forcing the new content on them.

In XI a more casual player can choose to do events like Nyzul Isle and Limbus and Sky while the more hardcore do events like Kings and Salvage and Sea, and in the end after mixing and matching various events with some AH gear neither end of the spectrum is significantly more or less 'pimped out' than the other. There's even casual events (Einherjar) that drop the exact same gear as the most hardcore event (Kings). I keep seeing some WoW players on here talk about wanting options when it comes to leveling solo vs in a group, personally I prefer my options to be in endgame since in the end that's what we spend the majority of our time doing.
#30 Jun 12 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Default
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I thought the way FFXI handled end game/equip was perfect, excluding the time required for Ground and Dynamis. You were rewarded for the effort you put in, and never had to worry about your gear becoming useless. I'd hate expansions if I knew all the equip I earned was about to become useless.
#31 Jun 12 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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PopeyesOpenEye wrote:

In XI a more casual player can choose to do events like Nyzul Isle and Limbus and Sky while the more hardcore do events like Kings and Salvage and Sea, and in the end after mixing and matching various events with some AH gear neither end of the spectrum is significantly more or less 'pimped out' than the other. There's even casual events (Einherjar) that drop the exact same gear as the most hardcore event (Kings). I keep seeing some WoW players on here talk about wanting options when it comes to leveling solo vs in a group, personally I prefer my options to be in endgame since in the end that's what we spend the majority of our time doing.


I've done a fair bit of Einherjar though, and sometimes it feels a **** of a lot more hard core than it should because the rate of reward is pretty low. It's a shorter event and one done on your own time, to be sure, but the number of events you have to do leads to pretty much the same time spent overall, and that doesn't really address the major issue that the game has. Horrible thing to say, but if that gear is your goal you would be better off in a decent botting linkshell.

That's one of the things that XIV needs to address to be a success.



#32 Jun 12 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
I really do like the progress to the endgame better than the endgame itself, so from my point of view SE could really flesh low and midgame out more (while making the leveling process a bit longer than usual? Or am I becoming crazy here suggesting this? lol)


This fall more true for FFXI rather than WoW. In FFXI the job leveling and sub job leveling is a BIG part of the game. This would let you experience low and mid content a lot. With that kind of system you are forced to go back to the old content and hence if SE did implement more low and midgame content it could be welcomed by the community.

Doing that for a game like WoW it pretty much meaningless, since there is no real need to level up your character ones you hit max level AND even for new player that are starting the game you have the "skip everything and ding 80 without any effort, aka solo" option constantly at your disposal.
#33 Jun 12 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Jobangles wrote:

I thought the way FFXI handled end game/equip was perfect, excluding the time required for Ground and Dynamis. You were rewarded for the effort you put in, and never had to worry about your gear becoming useless. I'd hate expansions if I knew all the equip I earned was about to become useless.


This attitude only exists because the current methods of obtaining even moderate gear are such huge time sinks, and the pieces themselves are so integral to gameplay, that to render them obsolete with better pieces would generate **** hurt and possibly break the game.

If the development is tied a little more closely to our actual character and less emphasis is put on the physical pieces of gear as being the defining factor in performance, rendering previously earned pieces obsolete will not only be acceptable, but welcomed as we get more advanced in *level*.
#34 Jun 12 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I've done a fair bit of Einherjar though, and sometimes it feels a **** of a lot more hard core than it should because the rate of reward is pretty low. It's a shorter event and one done on your own time, to be sure, but the number of events you have to do leads to pretty much the same time spent overall, and that doesn't really address the major issue that the game has. Horrible thing to say, but if that gear is your goal you would be better off in a decent botting linkshell.


Well some events are difficult to define as either hardcore or casual. Abjurations pieces don't have a very impressive drop rate true, but what does in XI really. I consider it relatively casual though because as you say it can be done in shorter sittings and on your own time, and also because it offers guaranteed rewards through the Ampoules system to keep you progressing while you wait for those rarer drops.

Salvage is another that I'd consider somewhat hard to define. Like Einherjar it's done in short sittings and on your own time (limited to acquiring assault points but that's not difficult), it can also be done with a minimal amount of people. However, it has some of the worst drop rates in the game combined with outrageous costs to upgrade the gear to it's use-able form, making it rare to see 'casual' player's sporting it's rewards.

This goes along with my original point though. Give us a variety of events to choose from all offering viable 'endgame' rewards and let each individual player decide what they consider to be too hardcore or too casual for their tastes.
#35 Jun 12 2009 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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The only thing is, from what I've heard from message boards and a friend that's played for 5 years, is that EVERYTHING take so long to get in FFXI. Everything has a horrible drop rate, or involves standing around for hours for the chance to even fight the mob, or whatever else. I do agree that variety is good, I just hope it won't take quite so long this time.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 6:19pm by Raymund
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#36 Jun 12 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
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That's certainly true in most cases. Even in the best scenario you'd have to do an event for around 2 weeks to get one piece of gear guaranteed. There's really a ton of events though, so it's not as big of an issue as it may seem at first. Waiting around to even get a chance to fight a mob is a result of poor design that SE has tried to improve on in the recent years. Like said before, the fact that the gear progression is horizontal is the reason why players still have to camp around for hours, although there's not much point to do it nowadays since you can get the same items from elsewhere or the drops aren't worth it to acquire.

The balancing factor for lower drop rates is that once you get the piece of gear, you can be sure that it will most likely stay as good as it is at the time you got it.
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#37 Jun 12 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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what about a return of AF gear? Should it come back? If so in a form similair to what it is now? As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong) its not end game gear and even at the level you get it theres better options. Which to me seems like a waste since its supposed to be the defining gear of that job. Id certainly like a gear set that makes me look like a "Dark Knight" etc.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 6:38pm by mezlabor
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#38 Jun 12 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
what about a return of AF gear? Should it come back? If so in a form similair to what it is now? As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong) its not end game gear and even at the level you get it theres better options. Which to me seems like a waste since its supposed to be the defining gear of that job. Id certainly like a gear set that makes me look like a "Dark Knight" etc.


Some AF gear is decent and some is total crap, it really depends on the job. The general separation is that mages tend to get a lot of mileage out of their AF while melee don't as much. However even the 'good' AF are highly situational (like all gear in XI really), and likewise even the 'crap' can have situations where it's useful.

The good news is that the most recently created AF sets (sets for newer jobs such as those from WotG and the ToAU jobs' Dynamis AF), are actually pretty good.

I do hope to see them back, most of those classic looks are ingrained in my head, and I don't just mean their FFXI interpretations... it wouldn't really feel the same to me without them.
#39 Jun 12 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This attitude only exists because the current methods of obtaining even moderate gear are such huge time sinks, and the pieces themselves are so integral to gameplay, that to render them obsolete with better pieces would generate **** hurt and possibly break the game.

If the development is tied a little more closely to our actual character and less emphasis is put on the physical pieces of gear as being the defining factor in performance, rendering previously earned pieces obsolete will not only be acceptable, but welcomed as we get more advanced in *level*.



I played Ninja & Paladin as my "main" jobs, so all I had to worry about were Sea, Sky, & Limbus.(Yeah, gave up on Valor Surcoat) You're practically guaranteed at least one full set of equip from each of those areas within a week, regardless of how many other LS's show up.(with only 1-2 pt's needed to win easily) And you'll have tons of spare pieces left over.

I have no reason to do X activity to get X piece of equip if it barely enhances my character and/or will be replaced soon anyways. On the other hand- I tanked perfectly fine in AF/AH gear, but looked & performed so much more badass with my Homam. Limiting the max & expanding with a variety of stats gave us clear meaningful goals to aim for.

/rambled

I just really enjoyed the system for what it was, minus Dynamis & Kings.
#40 Jun 12 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't want top line gear to become obsolete unless its due to leveling. And even then there should be a couple of lower level pieces that shine (Leaping Boots, Peacock Charm). I liked the horizontal equipment progression at endgame. I also believe that starting fresh they'd be able to work out endgame gear and abilities in such a way that it would allow higher level caps. If the level 7 Leaping Boots were viable at 75 then I'm sure they'd be able to make 75 gear viable at 80.

****, its possible (though doubtful) this game will be released with a level cap of 99.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 7:51pm by Westyle
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