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This is not FFXI (mindset)Follow

#1 Jun 12 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I was wondering if anyone agreed with me. I had seen a couple posts that people stated they wanted others to get out of the mindset this is not another rendition of FFXI. I would like to see more people with new and exciting ideas versus rehashing old FFXI. Granted they are gonna take ideas from FFXI but this isnt FFXI its FFXIV. Please people take this into account and use some creativity. I see the majority of the posts talking about making FFXIV a better version of FFXI. I want to see the posts turn into creative ways to make it feel like a FF game without rehashing FFXI.

Good examples. The whole female Galka argument. They already stated that the races are gonna look the same and thats about it. They could be called something completely different and the lore behinde them is going to be different.

The job system alot of people hoping for the same jobs. I am not saying this is bad im just saying why not hope for something new and exciting after all it is a new game. And no 2 FF games are alike.

New weapons. People have been hoping for the same weapons as the last game. Sure let them be in this game too but why not reccomend a new weapon or two. Also keep in mind this game will be more technology advanced like in FFVII and FFXIII that has been stated. So think about what FF weapons would fit in there.

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 2:04am by JingleHymer
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#2 Jun 12 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you ask a FFXI player what they want from the next MMO they'll say they're going to say "FFXI but better". Which means most of the ideas people have will be directly related to what they liked/did in FFXI. As for speculation, there's very little information out there and what we do have is so vague that just about any interpretation could be possible. The best thing we have is the logo and banner art, both of which were done(I think) by a guy who's given so much creative freedom that he thinks moogles look like this: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/f/f3/Ffix-amano-mog.jpg


Also people are in general not very creative, so just take everything with a grain of salt and realize the 80-20 rule is in effect.

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 2:24am by Kazeramix
#3 Jun 12 2009 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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I'd love a "scan" ability to learn everything about the monster...especially drops.
#4 Jun 12 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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You ever hear the saying that there is nothing new under the sun? Ideas all need to come from somewhere and because this is a FF game, it WILL be (at least attempted) a better version of FFXI. By that I mean, it will take and improve on areas that SE has learned from and it will attempt to emulate things that were popular and players liked. Some of the largest elements of gameplay, ie Combat, Experience and Jobs however have already been partially disclosed. Not so much that we know what the systems will be like yet, but at least to know that they will be different enough from FFXI that I dont think you need to worry in that regard. The combat especially, I think, has the potential to be really excellent.

As far as reusing weapons and other types of gear like that, it is kind of a FF tradition to carry over the same end-game item names from game to game. Same goes for monsters and jobs, not to say that new ones cant be created but I think its just part of being a FF game and doesnt necessarily mean that they come from FFXI.
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#5 Jun 12 2009 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I understand what the op is getting at, but it would be an easier argument to make when dealing with any other MMO and its sequel (or prequel) than Final Fantasy. As it is, you will probably see a fair amount of "familiar" names attached to jobs,weapons, gear, spells, locations, NPCs, etc. since there are so many commonalities between all FF games. It may be a possibility that players are just expressing their desire to see that these "familiarities" continue the way that they have for many years.

ed: spelling

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 3:48am by Kotisu
#6 Jun 13 2009 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I am all down with familir. I have played all the ff games. I just want people to get out of the mindset that this isnt a sequal. I think the developers had that convered in the interview. They said they are going to take ideas from many games and also FFXI. Yet some things are like you said going to be the same. I.E Summons, Weapon Names, Characters (CID, Biggs, Wedge) Chocobos, Mogs. I know all this, and not arguing against it. I enjoy FF and its one of my favorite series of all time. LOL I collected thier action figures. And this is a guy who dirtbikes and playes guitar on the side. Nerd/Jock I dont collect anything else other then Street Fighter comics and other video games. Point being.

I want to see some things from FFXI but I also have the mindset that the developers are taking their creativity to the next lvl. Take some ideas here and there make a melting pot and bam possibly the best FF game ever.

What I wanted is to have people branch out from the FFXI - 2 mindset thats all. And I know that alot of FFXI gamers want it to be alot like FFXI but it just wont I personally think. ALready the facts point that way. Faster Combat, No Exp, Jobs yes but not the same way alot of people i fear think. They are focusing more on story then grinding that was already said. The theme for this FF is growth and that will be through story, and questing. Not a direct quote but close enough.

I would like to see Cid and him piloting the Highwind again yes please. Maybe the dragoon will be Kain from FF4. Also why not throw in some baddies and maybe even the Ruby and Emerald weapon. **** yes talk about that for endgame. Kefka would be a rad guy to see aswell.
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#7 Jun 13 2009 at 12:40 AM Rating: Default
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JingleHymer wrote:

What I wanted is to have people branch out from the FFXI - 2 mindset thats all. And I know that alot of FFXI gamers want it to be alot like FFXI but it just wont I personally think. ALready the facts point that way. Faster Combat, No Exp, Jobs yes but not the same way alot of people i fear think. They are focusing more on story then grinding that was already said. The theme for this FF is growth and that will be through story, and questing. Not a direct quote but close enough.


There is no reference as to that SE have "removed" grinding in any way. Making the game more casual friendly is NOT the same as removing the grinding aspect of the game. You have to understand what grinding actually means in a MMO.

Grinding usually refers to "input xxx time to achieve xxx goal or item". By removing the grinding you eliminate any time sink the game will have. Let me make a few example, maxing up your character threw whatever type of system SE has now instead of level/xp. If you remove the grinding, one would assume that I should be able to get all skills and max my growth at an extremely fast pace. You said they will focus on story, well there are several types of stories and missions, if you go by that we need to remove grinding in the story side as well, that means you need to make the story/mission extremely short and easy and doable in a blink (aka remove any feeling of time sink) so that you don’t feel that it’s a grind in it.

All in all this lead to a game that even an average player will finish in 30 days and then there is really nothing to do. Basically FF14 _offline_.
And trust me that they will never ever have enough content that you can remove the "grinding" feeling from it unless you have a MAJOR content patch every 30 days, and that my friend won’t simply happen.




#8 Jun 13 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry I was mis understood. I ment camping and grinding mobs for hours and hours and hours for exp. Mind Numbing robotic grinding.
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#9 Jun 13 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Default
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I really dont want FFXIV to become another WoW clone. I love the challenge FFXI has to offer and I do not wish for that to change in the upcoming MMO. I really hope they stick to their awesome ways when it comes to this new MMO. I dont want it to end up being too easy for the "casual" players. I love being able to solo and all but please please please SE do not make it too easy. I know a lot of people who are just going to hop right back to FFXI if they end up surrounding this game with the skill level of a 12 year old... I dont want little kids to flood our borders in FFXI. I dont want an easy grind to cap. I dont want it to be compared to WoW. Im sure I speak for many others with my opinions.


Edited, Jun 13th 2009 11:48am by Saphiera
#10 Jun 13 2009 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, FFXI is just another EQ clone in the end, so I think we're mainly asking for specific things found in that kind of MMO genre, and not just FFXI alone. I think we're all kind of stuck in the mold made by the early MMO's and can't really think of anything that different from the old, just bigger and better.

Of course it would be awesome if SE reinvented the basic MMO concept! That'd be pretty refreshing.

From what I've noticed, the dev team seems to be pretty innovative so I wouldn't rule it out completely that something like that might happen with XIV. However I'm pretty sure that whatever SE does it won't be like 99% of the suggestions said here. When they said "something we're not expecting", I believe that's exactly what it means. I've never seen anyone accurately able to predict what the dev team does next in XI, be it new endgame event or job adjustment. It can be bad or good thing, but at least it keeps things interesting.



Edited, Jun 13th 2009 6:04pm by Hyanmen
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#11 Jun 13 2009 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I've seen more "FFXIV isn't WoW" than "FFXIV isn't FFXI".

I don't want to like...claim sayings but I wrote the first "FFXIV isn't FFXI" post that I saw (emphasis on the I saw it's very possible and highly likely it's a common thought) and I said it because the thread I was posting in seemed to have a lot of people that basically wanted FFXI with better graphics. I don't want FFXI or WoW...I played both and loved both for their own different things but I haven't played either in a while as I'm now looking for a game that successfully incorporates the good from both (with a little warhammer spice thrown in the mix). I want it to be a final fantasy above all else but I want it to have some of the ease of use and some of the features that WoW has.
#12 Jun 13 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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I believe SE is going to play this safe and make the game very similar to XI. SE has become more corporate since XI and they're not up to takings on lots of risks.

And to the idea that they might remove the grind. SE wants XIV to last at least as long as XI did. There is no way they'll be removing the grind. The grind is what makes an MMO money. They might remove the conventional way to level of get this much exp for this level but the grind to enhance skills/abilities/stats will still be there, they'll just call it something else.
#13 Jun 13 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Saphiera wrote:
I really dont want FFXIV to become another WoW clone.

Why would ANYONE want another MMO to be a WoW clone? If I wanted to play WoW, I could just play WoW.

Adopting one or two concepts, which have been used in other MMOs, which may include WoW; That isn't the same thing as wanting a WoW clone.
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#14 Jun 13 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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And the first step in accomplishing this is giving by giving us an FF14 incarnation of Gilgamesh that we can actually fight.

Please?





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#15 Jun 13 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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What is a FF game without the classic jobs (which were for all mostly in FFXI)

I'm not accusing you of hating FFXI, but it seems like you do. XI did MANY things right. I don't want them to abandon the whole formula, I want them to improve on it.

I've played XI for 4 years though, so I've gotten used to a lot of the punishing aspects of it. Those punishments (level downs, JP midnights, week long fetch quests just to get utsusemi: ni, 5 hour dynamis's for 1 piece of gear maybe) have become great accomplishments to me. I don't want XIV to be filled with them, but I definitely want a few of those.

I'm ust too afraid their gonna make XIV the Easy Button like WoW.

The game will have, just by being a ff game:

crystals, moogles, typical ff classes, typical weapons, etc. Basically all of this was included in XI and they ran XI for 6 years. To think that they won't draw on that is impossible.

Also, how original are all the job classes in other mmos? Ninja, paladin, thief, warrior, Mage, Healer, Buffer (like bard), and ranged class. So what do you want.. some job classes out of left field that don't fit into any of these?
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#16 Jun 13 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Dude I played FFXI for over 6 years and I started on the PS2 on launch. I dont hate the game. I see it like this. If you wanna play FFXI play FFXI if you wanna play FFXIV play FFXIV. There is a reason they stated they are gonna keep FFXI running. For people who want to play that style of game. I think they will take a handfull of aspects of FFXI but not take it improve it and then throw a sticker on it. That is wishful thinking but this isnt a sequal, it wont be the same and thats that. People need to move on. All the FF games were extremely unique in one way or the other. 1 wasnt the same as 2 which was different then 3 all in extreme ways. The team is going to make FFXIV different. Weither it has the same jobs and races is besides the point I can gaurentee you the battle system is gonna be completly a 180 from that of FFXI. As for the argument of not wanting something easy to play I agree but making the game casual friendly doesnt mean that it will.

Also you can make a game as easy and hard as you want by setting goals. I would like to think that square would find a happy middle and just make an amazing storyline.
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#17 Jun 13 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

I'm ust too afraid their gonna make XIV the Easy Button like WoW.


Do try to keep in mind that "mindless repetition" is not synonymous with challenge. FFXI did/does have challenging content, but again it's very easy for FFXI players to lump legitimate challenge and faceroll repetition into one category. HNMs could be challenging. Grinding xp was not. People like to talk about how "easy" other MMOs are to level in and I'll bet you that if you could strip all of the wasted time from the FFXI xp/merit party cycle, folks would be forced to realize that it's not all that different from any other MMO. If you're in an xp party at level 74 earning 10k xp/hour, how long does it take to get to 75? Just over 4 hours? And what exactly does that four hours entail?

CoP was labeled for the longest time as an expansion that had an incredible story but was way, way too hard. Maybe it has been nerfed or changes to the game have made it easier or maybe the general population finally got a grip, but when I was trying to work through it the problem was about 10% related to the way the content was tuned and 90% the inability of your average FFXI player to think outside of the xp grind box. Static xp camps with pullers doing the legwork while everyone else stood around and waited for the next round of voke/dps/heal botting while mashing TP report macros broke the playerbase to the point where strategy beyond zerging was like...hard. The Promyvions were a cakewalk if you did the legwork beforehand. A lot of the missions were more an exercise in not getting your group scattered all over the place than they were in actually winning the fights.

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Also, how original are all the job classes in other mmos? Ninja, paladin, thief, warrior, Mage, Healer, Buffer (like bard), and ranged class. So what do you want.. some job classes out of left field that don't fit into any of these?


I'm not sure how much of the press conference and interview transcripts you've read, but FFXIV is going to be breaking away from the set job concept. There's no point getting worked up about which jobs may or may not be present because the rigid job system we're familiar with will most likely be absent.

FFXI had a lot going for it. For its time, it was an absolutely fantastic game, and those of us who played it to the level cap and spent any amount of time in the end-game grind before we got fed up and moved on would no doubt love to see a lot of familiar aspects. We would also like to see a lot of other things included with FFXIV that may or may not resemble other MMOs, but will most certainly not resemble those things that ultimately left us feeling like an average session in FFXI was as much if not more likely to end up dull and unproductive as it was to be fun and exciting.
#18 Jun 13 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Default
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Thanks man I couldnt have said it better.
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#19 Jun 13 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I think there are concepts in FFXI that are unique, and interesting, and in some cases (like the job system) flat out better than what is found in any other MMO.

I don't expect FFXIV to be a FFXI clone, but I expect it to play and feel more like FFXI than like anything else. I don't want to play FFXIV and think "Hmm, feels like World of Warcraft."

I was extremely disapointed playing FFVIII. Did I want it to be FFVII? I don't know. Part of me did, and part of me wanted something different enough to make me rethink and relearn. What I didn't want is what I got. Given a choice between FFVII-2, and FFVIII, I'd have rather had FFVII-2. On the other hand, FFX was nothing like FFVII, and it was completely awesome.

If FFXIV is a great game, it will be a great game on its own merits. Unfortunately there is always the danger when trying something new of recapturing NONE of what you liked before.

In order of preference, here is what I'd like FFXIV to be:

1) A game that is unique, stands on its own, and excels in every area.

If not that then:

2) A game which carries on the tradition of FFXI, borrowing the ideas and systems that worked, but smoothing away the rough edges, and adding new elements to keep it fresh and interesting. I think this is what a lot of people want as their #1 preference, and I sort of feel like this is what S-E is going to provide.

The other possibilities (a blatant attempt to dumb things down and appeal to the casual gamer above all, or something completely original, but not fun) are barely worth mentioning. I would not play FFXIV if it turned out to be either of those things, because... why should I? Unless FFXIV offers something really special, why put up with S-Es terrible "blame it on the customer" service?
#20 Jun 13 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah yes, I'd like it to feel like Everquest more than DaoC if I had to choose between the 2.
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#21 Jun 13 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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in a way it's not so easy to do what you want...

any forum user can criticize a thing, say it would be better done in another way, but it takes a devoper to create the said thing from scratch...

in my case, even if the dragoon job existed ages ago, i wouldn't have tough to add a pet wyvern to it, the guy who decided that was a pure genius.(exept the recast at that time, but that's another story)
now, i didn't like the job more than that before, and now it's my favorite job...
why should i want it not to be the same in ffxiv ?
i would feel like i lost an important part of the fun i had if they removed it, ****, i may not even want to play(that probably won't happens but you get the point)

on another note, even if you say that you don't want peoples to take ideas from ffxi, then peoples takes ideas from others ffs, i can't see how it's better in any way ^^; (actually i am guilty of all theses as well)

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Edited, Jun 13th 2009 5:20pm by DarkBiBi
#22 Jun 13 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
Saphiera wrote:
I really dont want FFXIV to become another WoW clone.

Why would ANYONE want another MMO to be a WoW clone? If I wanted to play WoW, I could just play WoW.

Adopting one or two concepts, which have been used in other MMOs, which may include WoW; That isn't the same thing as wanting a WoW clone.


Of course no one wants one. The problem is that there are so many WoW clones out there. Granted, they're mostly free-to-play Korean games, but they do exist.

Just because someone doesn't want it, doesn't mean they fully expect it to become that. I don't expect a tornado to knock down my house, but it still scares the **** out of me every time there's a tornado warning.
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#23 Jun 13 2009 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
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FFXIV won't be a WoW clone, but either an FFXI-2
#24 Jun 13 2009 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with everything the OP has stated.

FFXIV is going to be a completely different game. Yes, there will be some elements drawn from other places and certainly from FFXI, but to expect the end product to be more than very superficially similar shows a great lack of creativity, and if that's what you actually want, you really should just keep playing FFXI.

This is not going to be FFXI-2. It's not going to be FFXI+1. It's a completely different game.

Am I a prophet? An insider? No, but I've been playing Squaresoft games since they first came out and I know how SE works. They have their strengths and weaknesses, but unmistakably one of their strengths is to not be afraid of trying something new.
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#25 Jun 13 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Well they could throw us a huge curveball down the line. A few popular Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels lately are combining their series'. On example is the Terry Brooks' Word&Void>Shannara>Armageddons Children.

What if (and I highly doubt it) this is waaaay in the future or past of XI.

Honestly though, I don't care what's about to happen. I know it will be great on many levels and miss on a few others. It's just the way it is with SE. You're almost guaranteed a B+

I'm looking forward to new adventures, with a well thought out (and hopefully properly translated) story, and amazing vistas.

As to weapons, I really would like to see some different things. Especially fluid weapons like whips/chains, maybe elemental swords that have a slight liquidity to them. More thrown weapons. Most of all I would like a lot more visible difference in weapon types. My super rare dagger shouldn't look nearly the same other than color as a lvl 1 item.

Edited, Jun 14th 2009 6:02am by PerrinofSylph
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#26 Jun 13 2009 at 10:42 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I don't expect FFXIV to be a FFXI clone, but I expect it to play and feel more like FFXI than like anything else. I don't want to play FFXIV and think "Hmm, feels like World of Warcraft."

I was extremely disapointed playing FFVIII. Did I want it to be FFVII? I don't know. Part of me did, and part of me wanted something different enough to make me rethink and relearn. What I didn't want is what I got. Given a choice between FFVII-2, and FFVIII, I'd have rather had FFVII-2. On the other hand, FFX was nothing like FFVII, and it was completely awesome.

If FFXIV is a great game, it will be a great game on its own merits. Unfortunately there is always the danger when trying something new of recapturing NONE of what you liked before.

In order of preference, here is what I'd like FFXIV to be:


When you said this I thought man he didnt like 8 and wanted FF7-2 dude no one is forcing you to play FF14 and no one is forcing you to quite ffXI they said them selves as long as people play the game it will be supported.
I personally thought 8 was good. Not my favorite but good. I thought the magic system was unique. I thought some of the characters were very likeable. But I try to find the good in everything and not the bad. If you are in that mindset you might enjoy things that you would more or less think crap if you had a bad mindset.

FFVII is one of my favorite RPGS but its FFVII I dont wish any way shape or form that FF8 9 10 and so on was a sequal to the game. They all stand out in there own way. Let FFXIV be its own game. And just because you may take casual play as a WoW clone you are asumming the worst. And Assuming makes an ARS outta U and ME.

Yes there is a danger and risk in making a new game but if they were safe all the time we wouldnt have new concepts and we would have clones of everything.



Quote:
in my case, even if the dragoon job existed ages ago, i wouldn't have tough to add a pet wyvern to it, the guy who decided that was a pure genius.(exept the recast at that time, but that's another story)
now, i didn't like the job more than that before, and now it's my favorite job...
why should i want it not to be the same in ffxiv ?
i would feel like i lost an important part of the fun i had if they removed it, ****, i may not even want to play(that probably won't happens but you get the point)


I would say this statement is unfair at best towards Square. It sounds like a child basically saying, and im not trying to be mean but seriously listen to yourself, a child. I want a candy and if i dont get it im gonna throw a tantrum. Dude really? Are we being serious? What if they dont have dragoon at all. What if they do? What if they make it better and you, are basically stating F it I give up! Really man. Is that a good mentality? I think not. Give the game a shot to be its own and maybe you will be suprised, (GOOD OR BAD) If you dont like it then go back to FFXI.

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#27 Jun 14 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I would say this statement is unfair at best towards Square. It sounds like a child basically saying, and im not trying to be mean but seriously listen to yourself, a child. I want a candy and if i dont get it im gonna throw a tantrum. Dude really? Are we being serious? What if they dont have dragoon at all. What if they do? What if they make it better and you, are basically stating F it I give up! Really man. Is that a good mentality? I think not. Give the game a shot to be its own and maybe you will be suprised, (GOOD OR BAD) If you dont like it then go back to FFXI.


<.<

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i may not even want to play(that probably won't happens but you get the point)


you probably read what i wrote the wrong way, what i meant is :
-it's absolutly normal for people to want to keep what they like
-if you're so brillant try to figure what's going to be in ffxiv and wasn't in any previous ff, hard isn't it ? even with all the things we'll have from previous ffs, the main point will be what's new, we are somewhat agreeing on that.

and i'd prefer no drg job(tough that's probably not going to happens) to drg without a wyvern, it would at least let me some hope for the next ffs...
actually i wouldn't care about drg, i'd be happy just to meet our little blue friend there(only if they don't become something like merit pt targets :x)
#28 Jun 14 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Default
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If you're in an xp party at level 74 earning 10k xp/hour


Who the **** gets 10k an hour at level 74? Must have been a while since you played huh?
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#29 Jun 14 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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JingleHymer wrote:


When you said this I thought man he didnt like 8 and wanted FF7-2 dude no one is forcing you to play FF14 and no one is forcing you to quite ffXI they said them selves as long as people play the game it will be supported.


I'm not sure really what you're responding to. I applaud the fact that they didn't make 8 into just a sequel to 7, which a lot of companies would have done, because it would be safe and just make some more money.

However, I didn't like 8. I thought the "draw" system was not fun, and some of the other design decisions, while ambitious, didn't work out very well. The comparison with 11 and 14 is that, the best case possible is that 14 is extremely different (the way that 10 was different from 7 and 8) but still great (like 10 was, IMO). If they play it safe and just make it "Improved FF11" then I'll probably still play it an enjoy it. If they try to shoot for the stars and fail (like I feel they did with 8) then I will still try it, and be dis satisfied, and not play long term. That's the danger of being ambitious-- if you succeed, you are hailed, and if you don't, then you are jeered.


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I personally thought 8 was good. Not my favorite but good. I thought the magic system was unique. I thought some of the characters were very likeable. But I try to find the good in everything and not the bad. If you are in that mindset you might enjoy things that you would more or less think crap if you had a bad mindset.


That's fine. If you like 8 then awesome, good for you. It's no loss or gain to me if it was a game you enjoy(ed). I'm not here to tell you what you should like, I just used it as an example of how trying to be different can sometimes turn out sour. You don't have to agree that it's sour for my point to stand.

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FFVII is one of my favorite RPGS but its FFVII I dont wish any way shape or form that FF8 9 10 and so on was a sequal to the game. They all stand out in there own way. Let FFXIV be its own game. And just because you may take casual play as a WoW clone you are asumming the worst. And Assuming makes an ARS outta U and ME.


I'm not assuming anything. I feel like FFXI has a special charm that partially comes from the fact that everything has to be earned. I'd like to see a game like that, with some of the poor implementation (like static, open air camps) taken out. I think S-E gets that, and you can see from the way they have designed gear and encounters as each expansion has come along, that they have evolved, albeit slowly.

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Yes there is a danger and risk in making a new game but if they were safe all the time we wouldnt have new concepts and we would have clones of everything.


I agree. Like I said, the game doesn't have to be just more of the same, but the more ambitious and creative they get, the more chance to lose what makes your game special.

Given a choice of an ambitious failure, and an evolutionary success, I'd take the success. Given a choice of an ambitious success and an evolutionary success, I'd take the ambitious choice. The problem is until the game is released, we don't really know which one it is.



#30Louiscool, Posted: Jun 16 2009 at 9:32 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Who is *we*? News update, many of *us* are still playing the game and didn't get get all emo and quit.
#31 Jun 16 2009 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

You know there's additional content in FFXI that doesn't include leveling up, right? I'm not gonna spend many paragraphs here describing them to you, but needless to say there were many things in FFXI that I would consider actual accomplishments.

I went far in WoW and I never felt any difficulty, nor any accomplishment.


Maybe you're just not a very good player then. There was very little by way of challenge in FFXI that wasn't created almost exclusively by poor players who couldn't get past the xp grind mindset to zerging everything. Time spent does not entail challenge...it just means you were willing to spend the time.

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You are kidding yourself right here. Did you twist the interviews? There will absolutely positively be a job system. If there wasn't a class system at all, how would anything get done?


I'm getting tired of arguing with would-be genius scrubs who can't think outside of the box.

Is a tank a job or a role? Is a healer a job or a role? Is dps or support a job or a role? So if you can fill the role with or without the job label and restrictions, wtf does it matter whether you call it a red mage or a melee/caster dps + support and enfeebling? Oh...it doesn't matter.

Read the transcripts again. Carefully.

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Sorry, I don't particularly want to play the game you envision. The game you're thinking of is a single player RPG where everyone can do everything.


Kinda like someone who has been leveling jobs in FFXI since release and can switch to almost any job at level 75?

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FFXI had a lot going for it. For its time, it was an absolutely fantastic game, and those of us who played it to the level cap and spent any amount of time in the end-game grind before we got fed up and moved on would no doubt love to see a lot of familiar aspects. We would also like to see a lot of other things included with FFXIV that may or may not resemble other MMOs


Who is *we*? News update, many of *us* are still playing the game and didn't get get all emo and quit.


Don't accuse me of being "emo" for leaving a game I didn't enjoy. Go inform yourself and then if you're capable of carrying on a non-butthurt conversation, get back to me. Your reading skills could use some obvious improvement, and you could probably start by not ignoring what is written for the sake of fabricating things to be defensive over.

Edited, Jun 16th 2009 11:02pm by AureliusSir
#32 Jun 17 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:

Maybe you're just not a very good player then. There was very little by way of challenge in FFXI that wasn't created almost exclusively by poor players who couldn't get past the xp grind mindset to zerging everything. Time spent does not entail challenge...it just means you were willing to spend the time.


Climbing Nyzul Isle Assault floor 1 - 100: challenging accomplishment
Soloing Avatars: Challenging accomplishment
Nearly Every single Blue Mage spell I soloed: Challenging Accomplishment
Dynamis Relic gear: Challenging Accomplishment
Rank 10 in San D'oria: Challenging Accomplishment
Soboro Sukihero: Challenging Accomplishment
Vali's Bow: Challenging Accomplishment
Selene's Bow: Challenging Accomplishment
Chains of Promathia questline: Challenging Accomplishment

Do I need to continue? I'm sure I've just wooshed you with most of these things since you are unawares that FFXI has more to offer than level-ups.

Not every accomplishment has to be equated to time spent, though I still count them since people like you are too impatient to to spend the time.

Quote:

I'm getting tired of arguing with would-be genius scrubs who can't think outside of the box.

Is a tank a job or a role? Is a healer a job or a role? Is dps or support a job or a role? So if you can fill the role with or without the job label and restrictions, wtf does it matter whether you call it a red mage or a melee/caster dps + support and enfeebling? Oh...it doesn't matter.

Read the transcripts again. Carefully.


I did. You're assuming there won't be any jobs in ffxi and you're a flipping idiot. Reading comprehension go!



What about jobs?
Jobs will return in Final Fantasy XIV, but they will be much different than the job system present in FFXI.


So you're thinking they will say "Ok so no more job names guys. But you will have clearly dfined rolls with complex names like "Hybrid dps/healer/spellcaster with refresh spells," and "ranged attacker" and "guy who gets the attention of monsters and then cures himself" and "person who casts healing magic" and "singer of songs to buff the party" and "mithra who controls beasts"?

Yeah thats a great idea! Why haven't other MMO's enacted this completely idiotic classless mmo yet!
Quote:

Quote:
Sorry, I don't particularly want to play the game you envision. The game you're thinking of is a single player RPG where everyone can do everything.


Kinda like someone who has been leveling jobs in FFXI since release and can switch to almost any job at level 75?


FFXI doesn't have amourphous blobs, you can only be one job at a time bud. I can't go to a party as whm and then do anything but heal.

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FFXI had a lot going for it. For its time, it was an absolutely fantastic game, and those of us who played it to the level cap and spent any amount of time in the end-game grind before we got fed up and moved on would no doubt love to see a lot of familiar aspects. We would also like to see a lot of other things included with FFXIV that may or may not resemble other MMOs


Who is *we*? News update, many of *us* are still playing the game and didn't get get all emo and quit.


Don't accuse me of being "emo" for leaving a game I didn't enjoy. Go inform yourself and then if you're capable of carrying on a non-butthurt conversation, get back to me. Your reading skills could use some obvious improvement, and you could probably start by not ignoring what is written for the sake of fabricating things to be defensive over.

Go read the link above, then re-read it. Then have your mom read it and explain it to you.

/nerdslapfight


ADD:

Btw, Good thing you quit. Full ranger AF + NQ Amemet Mantle = go shoot yourself..

Edited, Jun 17th 2009 12:21pm by Louiscool
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#33 Jun 17 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:

Climbing Nyzul Isle Assault floor 1 - 100: challenging accomplishment
Soloing Avatars: Challenging accomplishment
Nearly Every single Blue Mage spell I soloed: Challenging Accomplishment
Dynamis Relic gear: Challenging Accomplishment
Rank 10 in San D'oria: Challenging Accomplishment
Soboro Sukihero: Challenging Accomplishment
Vali's Bow: Challenging Accomplishment
Selene's Bow: Challenging Accomplishment
Chains of Promathia questline: Challenging Accomplishment

Do I need to continue? I'm sure I've just wooshed you with most of these things since you are unawares that FFXI has more to offer than level-ups.


You only assume I'm unaware. Nice try, though. If you want to base your arguments solely on assumption, be my guest.

Just a tip for you: it becomes very, very apparent when someone has just been itching for an excuse to post their nerd-resume, and you fit the bill to a tee. Good for you...you got it done. Now talk to me about combat mechanics. You know...the things about those accomplishments that actually made them challenging, not simply listing them like the list itself means something.

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I did. You're assuming there won't be any jobs in ffxi and you're a flipping idiot. Reading comprehension go!

So you're thinking they will say "Ok so no more job names guys. But you will have clearly dfined rolls with complex names like "Hybrid dps/healer/spellcaster with refresh spells," and "ranged attacker" and "guy who gets the attention of monsters and then cures himself" and "person who casts healing magic" and "singer of songs to buff the party" and "mithra who controls beasts"?

Yeah thats a great idea! Why haven't other MMO's enacted this completely idiotic classless mmo yet!


Again, a fantastic example of an FFXI neophyte completely incapable of thinking outside the box. To me, it's pretty simple to think in terms of tank, healer, dps, and support without having to append job titles to them. As long as FFXIV includes a system to rank the rate of development of a character in a particular area, that's all we need.

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FFXI doesn't have amourphous blobs, you can only be one job at a time bud. I can't go to a party as whm and then do anything but heal.


More stuck-in-the-box thinking. How effective are you going to be as a healer if you've got a mob chewing your face off and interrupting or delaying all of your casts? How effective are you going to be as a healer if your gear is suited exclusively to melee dps? How effective is a group going to be if there are no roles assigned before the fighting starts? In other MMOs, class/job defines limits on what abilities/spells you can use and what kinds of gear you can wear. SE has set precedent in other games and other developers have adopted no-level, no-job systems for character development that were both functional and fun.

You can throw selective quotes at the discussion until you're blue in the face. If you can't conceive of a system that doesn't revolve around explicit job selection, that's not my problem. It doesn't make it impossible to implement well, nor does it render a job system superior.

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Go read the link above, then re-read it. Then have your mom read it and explain it to you.


I've read everything about FFXIV that SE has released to date. I'm also able to tell the difference between explicit statements and implicit ones. SE has made relatively few explicit statements about what will or will not be in FFXIV. They have made a great many implicit statements that point in an entirely different direction from what many are used to, and you don't have to look far to see the mortifying effect it is having on the FFXI fanbois who don't understand much beyond grinding and zerging.
#34 Jun 17 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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http://www.ffxidats.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=11765

and I quote:

Quote:

One of the things we really liked about ff11 was the job system and how it gave the players lots of different options and they could try a lot of different things and it kept them playing the game for a long time. We hope to expand on that job system and offer even more options, in a different way.


So in what way does this say to anyone, "There will be no jobs or class system" ?

Sounds pretty explicit there. Keep ranting, just remember this conversation when you get your "official" announcement of jobs. You're gonna get labeled, deal with it, and stop crying about it.

Edited, Jun 17th 2009 12:48pm by Louiscool
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#35 Jun 17 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
http://www.ffxidats.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=11765

and I quote:

Quote:

One of the things we really liked about ff11 was the job system and how it gave the players lots of different options and they could try a lot of different things and it kept them playing the game for a long time. We hope to expand on that job system and offer even more options, in a different way.


So in what way does this say to anyone, "There will be no jobs or class system" ?

Sounds pretty explicit there. Keep ranting, just remember this conversation when you get your "official" announcement of jobs. You're gonna get labeled, deal with it, and stop crying about it.


The hints have been that there will be no fixed job system. I like that you bolded "We hope to expand on the job system" and glossed over the "in a different way" part.

"First of all, the job type of system will be very different. It depends on, again, the style of play the player wants."

(Source.)

"When the interviewer asks if series mainstays like Warrior or Paladin will appear, the developers simply hint that nothing will be exactly the same as we know it."

(Source)

For everything you can throw out that, in your mind, confirms a traditional job system, I can throw something back that hints it will be something different.

Still waiting for some combat mechanics to back up your claim that FFXI was more than an epic wait and grind fest.


Edited, Jun 17th 2009 4:38pm by AureliusSir
#36 Jun 17 2009 at 4:22 PM Rating: Default
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Vague sentences from interviews don't refute the facts.

I refuse to argue with you any further because it's clear that factual information is wasted on you. I'll try not to say I told you so when we find out that we have a slightly tweaked job system.

You really think we'll have 2 million players labeled "Adventurer" with no defining characteristics or distinct job abilities? I cant believe this is even an argument it's so ridiculous.

You will have a job name based on the abilities you can use.

Edited, Jun 17th 2009 8:23pm by Louiscool
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#37 Jun 17 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Vague sentences from interviews don't refute the facts.

I refuse to argue with you any further because it's clear that factual information is wasted on you. I'll try not to say I told you so when we find out that we have a slightly tweaked job system.

You really think we'll have 2 million players labeled "Adventurer" with no defining characteristics or distinct job abilities? I cant believe this is even an argument it's so ridiculous.

You will have a job name based on the abilities you can use.


Glad to see that you're certain. Interesting to see how your certainty has evolved over the last few posts. Funny almost that what you ended up with is what I've been talking about here in various different threads now for weeks, but go ahead and accuse me of something else if it floats your boat. The time stamps on all of my other posts on the issue tell the tale.

Just one problem...you still haven't addressed the "challenge" component of FFXI by referencing specific combat mechanics that made something a real...you know...challenge...and not just a grind or a time sink or an epic wait for "maybe something, maybe nothing" that made you feel accomplished when you were one of the small handful of people who wound up on the "something" side of the scale. Note that I've acknowledged that there is some challenging content in FFXI, but you kinda rammed your foot in your mouth with the WoW ez-mode comment.
#38 Jun 17 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Note that I've acknowledged that there is some challenging content in FFXI, but you kinda rammed your foot in your mouth with the WoW ez-mode comment.


All the content in WoW, besides PvP, pretty much required you to be at the level cap. Or at least that's how it was when I was playing. When I got 60 I tried to find people to do some of the raids/instances that I heard were awesome, or challenging. But no, I was told that everything from those raids sucked now and were replaced by easy to get greens and blues from the new BC areas. At least in ffxi there was stuff to do at almost all level ranges that was different and challenging and interesting.

Originally ffxi didn't have much for the lower levels, so I'm not going to try and say it was perfect.. but I'm hoping that ffxiv learned from ffxi that some of the interesting stuff doesn't need to require you to be "max level".

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Just one problem...you still haven't addressed the "challenge" component of FFXI by referencing specific combat mechanics that made something a real...you know...challenge...and not just a grind or a time sink or an epic wait for "maybe something, maybe nothing" that made you feel accomplished when you were one of the small handful of people who wound up on the "something" side of the scale.


Quite a lot of things were challenging. The CoP Airship fight for example; each of us needed to hold our own against a mammet each and then we needed to work together to kill ultima and omega. The CoP mammet fight was fun and hard as well. Needed to kite two of them while we tried to take down the first one. Needed to use yellow liquids to try and trap them in a convenient weapon form. Back before assassin whenever I was in an experience party I pre-charged fuidama and we had a first voke and then the tank went behind the monster and then I put the mob on the tank before he voked. And now pretty much any fight that I'm in I can't slack off because I have to ws whenever I hit 100tp, stack it with sa or ta if they're up, use sa or ta whenever they're ready, use feint every 2 minutes, steal/dispel the mobs buff whenever it's ready and he has something on, etc. There's plenty more as well.

It's not like we just hit attack and go downstairs to get food.

Edited, Jun 17th 2009 10:11pm by Deadgye
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#39 Jun 17 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
Note that I've acknowledged that there is some challenging content in FFXI, but you kinda rammed your foot in your mouth with the WoW ez-mode comment.


All the content in WoW, besides PvP, pretty much required you to be at the level cap. Or at least that's how it was when I was playing. When I got 60 I tried to find people to do some of the raids/instances that I heard were awesome, or challenging. But no, I was told that everything from those raids sucked now and were replaced by easy to get greens and blues from the new BC areas. At least in ffxi there was stuff to do at almost all level ranges that was different and challenging and interesting.


I simultaneously agree and disagree o.O

I also want very much to keep this from derailing too badly, so let me just clarify that my intent is not to suggest that there's no challenge in FFXI, but to be clear (again) that time spent does not mean content is more challenging. It just means more time spent. I can stand around a city waiting for a group to fill out like a corporate sponsored pro, but that doesn't mean anything is going to get done when the group rolls out. It also doesn't mean that waiting 2 hours for the group to form up or farming the content dozens of times makes that content more challenging from a mechanics point of view. It's just...time. I cleared the CoP missions, all Zilart missions (including the ones a lot of folks didn't do because meh...we have Sky access, why bother?), Divine Might, etc. My CoP static one-shot a lot of the harder CoP missions that had other groups stonewalled for weeks/months. (Airship, Snoll Tzar, etc.) On the flip side of the coin, I've been in fights in other MMOs that, in terms of complexity, make some of the "major" fights in FFXI look like a glorified gear check. I've been in fights in some MMOs that, while not exceptionally complex or hardcore challenging, contained many more layers of complexity and varying combat mechanics than anything I ever saw in FFXI.
#40 Jun 17 2009 at 9:24 PM Rating: Default
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I see in many posts that I read the constant reference as to how you had to wait for getting into parties was such a pain in the as*. This can be made 99% more easier then it is in FFXI, meaning your chance to getting a group will increase with 99% and your waiting time will decrease with 99%.

If we take FFXI you see that “the seek party” function totally sucks compared to WoW. Copy WoW seek party functions strait off, its 2000x timers better then FFXI. Also add mission stage/level to the seek party as well. Also you have the level sync. I suggest that you limit the range to 15 levels if you have a new game so that one doesn’t get stuck in low level areas forever. With these changes I can guarantee you that finding a group will be so much easier/smoother that no one has to wait to group anymore.
#41 Jun 17 2009 at 10:01 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:

Glad to see that you're certain. Interesting to see how your certainty has evolved over the last few posts. Funny almost that what you ended up with is what I've been talking about here in various different threads now for weeks, but go ahead and accuse me of something else if it floats your boat. The time stamps on all of my other posts on the issue tell the tale.


I've been 100% certain the entire time that FFXIV with have traditional jobs, albeit with a new twist or whatever. You are saying they won't have jobs and we will all be jack-of-all things.

Quote:

Note that I've acknowledged that there is some challenging content in FFXI, but you kinda rammed your foot in your mouth with the WoW ez-mode comment.


WoW is easy. Don't pretend it isn't, no one will believe you here. Any game that I can get to capped level in a month and be bored of... is easy.

I'm not gonna sit down and write out all the things that make FFXI a challenging game, it's honestly not worth the effort. We can just disagree on that. Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue want a few words with you though.
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#42 Jun 17 2009 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
On the flip side of the coin, I've been in fights in other MMOs that, in terms of complexity, make some of the "major" fights in FFXI look like a glorified gear check. I've been in fights in some MMOs that, while not exceptionally complex or hardcore challenging, contained many more layers of complexity and varying combat mechanics than anything I ever saw in FFXI.


Interesting, like what exactly? There were a lot of fights in ffxi that required one or several tricks.. but after we found them out we usually ended up perfecting them so much that it became a lot easier.
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#43 Jun 18 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
On the flip side of the coin, I've been in fights in other MMOs that, in terms of complexity, make some of the "major" fights in FFXI look like a glorified gear check. I've been in fights in some MMOs that, while not exceptionally complex or hardcore challenging, contained many more layers of complexity and varying combat mechanics than anything I ever saw in FFXI.


Interesting, like what exactly? There were a lot of fights in ffxi that required one or several tricks.. but after we found them out we usually ended up perfecting them so much that it became a lot easier.


Sartharion + drakes in WoW is a way more complex than anything I ever saw in FFXI. Most instances in LOTRO were a fair bit more involved than anything I saw in FFXI. I recognize that they're different games with different combat systems that restrict the extent of multiple components for a given fight, but I just think back to my days in FFXI and most of my time in combat was spent spamming the macro I made to report the cooldowns on my most commonly used abilities. Lots of time to plan and consider, adjust location, whatever. When you've got way more abilities than you could ever hope to keep on cooldown, things get a little more interesting, especially when you're dealing with multiple targets. These are all things I hope to see in FFXIV; more targets, faster cooldowns and more abilities for a faster pace, and in turn content tuned to take advantage of it.
#44 Jun 18 2009 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:


WoW is easy. Don't pretend it isn't, no one will believe you here. Any game that I can get to capped level in a month and be bored of... is easy.

I'm not gonna sit down and write out all the things that make FFXI a challenging game, it's honestly not worth the effort. We can just disagree on that. Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue want a few words with you though.


Two bosses. Wee.

It's unfortunate that you're not willing to back up your claims. In most circles, that's usually an indication that you can't, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Even though it would appear you haven't really got a clue what you're talking about, I'll pretend like you do.

Ya, that was fun. I'm done pretending now. If you can't/won't back up your claims, don't make them.
#45 Jun 18 2009 at 1:23 AM Rating: Good
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I think a multi-hitting sword called Llidir should be dropped from a mob called Rinfaf. This is not FFXI after-all.
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