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#52 Jun 15 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
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Calispel wrote:
Jobangles wrote:
FFXI is the same way, party play(unless it's amazing) is only worth it when the solo camps are crowded. Otherwise you get stuck looking for members to fill certain roles, and it just gets to be too much of a hassle. Why spend forever trying to get a full PT as thief if I can solo 5k in AF right now?

That sounds so different than how I wanted to put it. What I mean to say is that not giving party play an overwhelming advantage compared to solo will make it obsolete, even if it's better overall. FFXI only avoided solo trends because it had huge support for parties, and very few solo camps. WoW's support for casual solo play on the other hand basically killed grouping. Speaking of XP only, I don't know much about WoW end game.

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 4:54pm by Jobangles


That's exactly the point I keep trying to make. Nobody will want to wait for a party to form when they can get the same exp soloing. If you're one of the types that enjoys grouping, that makes it nearly impossible to get anyone to join you. The fun of cooperative play gets thrown out the window in favor of convenience. It's impossible to have a true balance of solo and group content unless the two playstyles are striving for different goals, where you need a mix of both to achieve everything.


Again it comes down to what SE wants, and trust they know, they have _watched_ WoW for 5 years now and they _know_ if they make solo play the same as WoW, people will solo no matter what. We can only wait and see what they have in store for us, but I’m betting my money on that the solo play won’t be as profitable as group xp, since I don’t think SE has it in their mind to let you skip all the group content and hit max level/growth. They will allow solo but very restrictively.

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 5:31pm by Maldavian
#53 Jun 15 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think it's a good idea to compare WoW solo/grouping to FF. In WoW, most people still group at some point whether it be for an instance or for a hard quest. WoW's support for solo didn't kill grouping b/c people STILL group while leveling. Blizz actually encouraged more grouping with the recruit-a-friend system. It's just an entirely different setting from FFXI. In WoW you're grouping for quests. You're not grinding off crabs.

All these years later, I'd imagine that SE hopefully found a nice balance between grouping and solo play for FFXIV. But I guess we won't know for sure for a while lol
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#54 Jun 15 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Gigogoomba wrote:
I don't think it's a good idea to compare WoW solo/grouping to FF. In WoW, most people still group at some point whether it be for an instance or for a hard quest. WoW's support for solo didn't kill grouping b/c people STILL group while leveling.


It wasn't the solo support so much as the implementation of the Quest system that did it. In a world where everyone was always doing the same quests this problem would not exist and grouping would be rampant in WoW..

At least for me that was the biggest deterrent. Everyone was on a different quest and nobody was on the same page.

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 5:56pm by thorazinekizzez
#55 Jun 15 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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Gigogoomba wrote:
I don't think it's a good idea to compare WoW solo/grouping to FF. In WoW, most people still group at some point whether it be for an instance or for a hard quest. WoW's support for solo didn't kill grouping b/c people STILL group while leveling. Blizz actually encouraged more grouping with the recruit-a-friend system. It's just an entirely different setting from FFXI. In WoW you're grouping for quests. You're not grinding off crabs.

All these years later, I'd imagine that SE hopefully found a nice balance between grouping and solo play for FFXIV. But I guess we won't know for sure for a while lol


In WoW you are grouping for quests ??
I thought in WoW 99.99% of the quests were soloable, or am I dead wrong?


Edited, Jun 15th 2009 5:59pm by Maldavian
#56 Jun 15 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:

In WoW you are grouping for quests ??
I thought in WoW 99.99% of the quests were soloable, or am I dead wrong?


I think he was mostly basing his argument around the fact the default UI supported the concept of people joining a group :)

Functionality_exists == True
begin argument

"I once grouped in WoW so its clearly not dead..."
#57 Jun 15 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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No, you're right. Most quests are soloable. Some of the quests that used to be group no longer are, but then new ones are added at the top. But that's because WoW is so top heavy that they just want to make it easier to get to cap since they keep raising cap. Don't want you to skip old content, just do it faster. There's still grouping for instances. Again, moreso in the last 10 levels before cap. Different design.
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#58 Jun 15 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Last 10 levels I ran every instance before I hit 80 on my healer.
results are drastically different depending on class and spec...
#59 Jun 15 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I wonder what would happen if WoW stopped raising the cap?
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#60 Jun 15 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
I wonder what would happen if WoW stopped raising the cap?


I speculate it would cause a compression chamber of sorts. The longer this continues over the years the pressure will build up. The more people will become worried that their efforts will be worthless the second they raise the cap again.

Its also how you steam vegetables and jump the shark at the same time.

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 6:21pm by thorazinekizzez
#61 Jun 15 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
dyvidd wrote:
I think solo play should be an option but not the requirement. That means you should get more xp in a group than you would ever by yourself. Solo should be there for people who don't have a lot of time or just want to play alone.


No, I have to take issue with that. If I'm holding my own and chewing through mobs at a steady clip while solo, there's absolutely no justifiable reason why people in a party should develop faster than me by default. There has to be a balance that means a crappy party will achieve less than an efficient solo player. Anything else would be directly contrary to the "do what you want" philosophy SE mentioned.


They said they want you to do what you want, not as fast as you want. Getting a party together, even a less than optimal party can be quite time consuming. Why should someone who logged on and went straight to soloing be able to advance at the identical rate to those who took the time and effort to get a group going? That would eliminate any reward for grouping in the first place, and in fact punish them for taking the time to {gather together}.

With the hours I'll likely be playing at, and the intervals of time I'll have per session, there's a good chance I'll be soloing to better myself many an evening. And I'm definitely hoping I'll be able to solo well enough to make my time each night feel worthwhile, at any stage of my character's career. But I'm not gonna feel cheated that the group that went by is advancing faster than me. In fact when I do have the free time to group up, I hope the rewards for partying will encourage people to do so. That way I get the opportunity to play a variety of styles and keep the game feeling fresh and varied.

It's not a race, and varied advancement rates for different playstyles aren't a punishment. They create balance (IMHO). MMOs where solo is as fast as party play end up with many players approaching endgame with no experience in party dynamics and their own role within them.
#62 Jun 15 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Raymund wrote:
But that's because WoW is so top heavy that they just want to make it easier to get to cap since they keep raising cap.


WoW is top heavy? What's FFXI then? FFXI had so much more end game content. Endgame WoW = Raiding 25man Ulduar + PvP(Arena or BG)FFXI endgame was, and I will only name a few, Dynamis, Limbus, Assault (I think that's what it was called), Nyzul, Missions(Rank6-10, RotZ, CoP, ToAU, WoG). All of which are still relevant.

Raymund wrote:
Don't want you to skip old content, just do it faster.


How many people do you know that run Karahzan these days, or Black Temple for that matter?

Back on topic. I don't think you should make leveling to the cap easier simply because you have some endgame content. Blizzard has to raise the level cap just to keep up with FFXI's unending endgame.

I know what I'm talking about, I've got a level 80 Paladin, I've done Ulduar, and I've done arena. People finished Ulduar weeks after it came out. Last I played FFXI people were barely getting Limbus(If I remember correctly) gear.

That's just my opinion.
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#63 Jun 15 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I just meant they don't want your skipping the first 60 levels. Yes, all of the stuff that used to be endgame is now skipped.

As for the top heavy stuff, my point about WoW is there isn't much to do until end game. With FFXI you still have the story missions and stuff like that you can do.
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#64 Jun 15 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Raymund wrote:
As for the top heavy stuff, my point about WoW is there isn't much to do until end game. With FFXI you still have the story missions and stuff like that you can do.


This makes FFXI sound like a much more complete game. WoW is a mad dash to 80, but once you get to 80 you realize there's hardly any endgame content.

Back to exping. WoW actually penalizes the players from partying on normal mobs. Imagine a system, where you get 100% solo, 100% in a party of 2, 100% in a party of 3, and so on. Yes, it would be easier, but grouping could be scaled down so you could party with 1 other person and not take a serious exp cut. Essentially grouping would be faster, but it would not be required. Larger groups could kill higher level mobs for bigger chunks, or simply comb a zone killing everything and gain a legitimate amount of exp. There's no penalty for partying, and there's no penalty for soloing. A group of 2 would not necessarily go twice as fast, only if you engaged seperate mobs and killed them both in the same speed as you were soloing. There would have to be alot of mobs in close proximity, and their respawns would have to be somewhat fast. Or the duo could team up on a more difficult mob, and gain higher exp for killing a higher level mob. This system would be more like a hunting party than a FFXI party, because you wouldn't necessarily need a healer if you killed equal level mobs.

Those that want to get legitimate exp soloing could do so. Those that want to get legitimate exp grouping could do so. If you got a bad party and continuously wiped on mobs you wouldn't go faster than someone soloing. Basically the Solo-savy player could keep up with a decent party. (This is what we all want right? No punishment for soloing, but still a legitimate reason to group up if we want)

This system would also allow for a certain level of immersion. You and your buddy could go exploring while making decent exp killing things you come across. (Assuming they aren't much higher level that you.) This grouping system could potentially improve the leveling speed of mage type players, while they may be somewhat lacking in the solo department they could help eliminate the down time of their other member, increasing both of the player's exp.

I don't know I think this system works pretty well, though really who knows what SE will do. It's all speculation now anyways, I figured I might as well give my exp system a shot while I take a break from writing a lab report. Feel free to poke holes in this method, just don't say "I Leiks to solo soz its shold bee fastr." Back to physics.
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#65 Jun 15 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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I'd agree with something like that working similar to thickets parties, but then I realized... We're talking about an XP system for a game with no XP.

Need infos now!
#66 Jun 15 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Well whatever they call the system, you're still gonna be fighting mobs and 'leveling' SOMETHING to get stronger.
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#67 Jun 15 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
Maybe he just likes the MMO part of the game for the social interaction



How's that gonna happen if you play by yourself? o_o


The same way a person has friends outside of work/school?

You can have friends in an online game that you never do large events with.


Edited, Jun 16th 2009 12:10am by Tarmus
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#68 Jun 15 2009 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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You can have friends in an online game that you never do large events with.


Instead of making a point directly, here are somewhat obscure lyrics.


My Girlfriend, Who Lives in Canada - Avenue Q
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ohhhh...
I wish you could meet my girlfriend, my girlfriend who lives in Canada.
She couldn't be sweeter
I wish you could meet her,
My girlfriend who lives in Canada!

Her name is Alberta
She live in Vancouver
She cooks like my mother
And sucks like a Hoover.

I e-mail her every single day
Just to make sure that everything's okay.
It's a pity she lives so far away, in Canada!

Last week she was here, but she had the flu.
Too bad
'Cause I wanted to introduce her to you
It's so sad
There wasn't a thing that she could do
But stay in bed with her legs up over her head!
Oh!

I wish you could meet my girlfriend,
But you can't because she is in Canada.
I love her, I miss her, I can't wait to kiss her,
So soon I'll be off to Alberta!
I mean Vancouver!
sh*t! Her name is Alberta, she lives in Vancou-

She's my girlfriend!
My wonderful girlfriend!
Yes I have a girlfriend, who lives in Canada!!
And I can't wait to eat her @#%^ again!
----------------------------------------------------


the point is, having friends on a mmorpg that you don't work with is like having a girlfriend that lives in a different country. I guess it would be alright, but you miss out on a lot.

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 11:35pm by Bardalicious
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#69 Jun 15 2009 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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ascorbic wrote:
They said they want you to do what you want, not as fast as you want. Getting a party together, even a less than optimal party can be quite time consuming. Why should someone who logged on and went straight to soloing be able to advance at the identical rate to those who took the time and effort to get a group going? That would eliminate any reward for grouping in the first place, and in fact punish them for taking the time to {gather together}.


Taking two hours to put a group together is a consequence of relying on PUGs. Don't rely on PUGs. It won't take you two hours to put a group together. If you're spending most of your group time with people you know, you'll tend to perform better. If you get groups together quickly because you're drawing from a pool of people you know and that group functions well, ideally the game would be tuned so that you would advance faster than a solo player, but not so much faster that even the most ill-formed, under skilled, poorly geared hacks can still progress faster than a solo player, because rewarding ineptitude is stupid.
#70 Jun 15 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Raymund wrote:
I just meant they don't want your skipping the first 60 levels. Yes, all of the stuff that used to be endgame is now skipped.

As for the top heavy stuff, my point about WoW is there isn't much to do until end game. With FFXI you still have the story missions and stuff like that you can do.


Also, keep in mind that there is gear and other rewards obtainable at mid levels that actually has some real permanence to it. Whether this is a particular piece of AF armor that you will macro swap in even at max level, or drops from BCNMs such as Mannequin parts, or just gear that you can sell or use for another job, there are a lot of really worthwhile things to do at mid level that are still going to be relevant later on.

It doesn't hurt that gear is re usable (mostly) or that you're going to be on the same character at the same level (on a different job) later on.
#71 Jun 15 2009 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:

Taking two hours to put a group together is a consequence of relying on PUGs. Don't rely on PUGs. It won't take you two hours to put a group together. If you're spending most of your group time with people you know, you'll tend to perform better. If you get groups together quickly because you're drawing from a pool of people you know and that group functions well, ideally the game would be tuned so that you would advance faster than a solo player, but not so much faster that even the most ill-formed, under skilled, poorly geared hacks can still progress faster than a solo player, because rewarding ineptitude is stupid.


Doing PUGs is a good way to meet people, and fine out who can play and who can't. It's not efficient like having a static leveling party, but how do you ever meet the people that you want to level with if you never PUG?
#72 Jun 15 2009 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Taking two hours to put a group together is a consequence of relying on PUGs. Don't rely on PUGs. It won't take you two hours to put a group together. If you're spending most of your group time with people you know, you'll tend to perform better. If you get groups together quickly because you're drawing from a pool of people you know and that group functions well, ideally the game would be tuned so that you would advance faster than a solo player, but not so much faster that even the most ill-formed, under skilled, poorly geared hacks can still progress faster than a solo player, because rewarding ineptitude is stupid.


Doing PUGs is a good way to meet people, and fine out who can play and who can't. It's not efficient like having a static leveling party, but how do you ever meet the people that you want to level with if you never PUG?


There's a difference between joining a PUG from time to time to get to know new people and relying on PUGs for everything.
#73 Jun 16 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:

There's a difference between joining a PUG from time to time to get to know new people and relying on PUGs for everything.


Pretty much every MMO I have played anything truly meaningful beyond just solo leveling is forced grouping. The puging part of the equation is just the difference between truly hard content and "casual" content...

Also there is a stark difference between automatic pug formations and manual pug formations. A lot of people forget that grouping in a MMOG can be automatic which result in a very different environment.

Edited, Jun 16th 2009 11:26am by thorazinekizzez
#74 Jun 16 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

There's a difference between joining a PUG from time to time to get to know new people and relying on PUGs for everything.


Pretty much every MMO I have played anything truly meaningful beyond just solo leveling is forced grouping. The puging part of the equation is just the difference between truly hard content and "casual" content...

Also there is a stark difference between automatic pug formations and manual pug formations. A lot of people forget that grouping in a MMOG can be automatic which result in a very different environment.


Ya, but automatic PUGs for PvE content would eliminate the "QQ I deserve more because I worked so hard to put this group together QQ" argument. I'm not sure enough people are ready for that just yet...
#75 Dec 14 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I necro'd this thread b/c it's a very important issue.

Grouping is riskier and there needs to be more reward for the risk. Soloing is easier, and should not be allowed to trump the group mechanic in XP.

If party xp = 2x solo xp, then group is preferable but soloers can also play by themselves and gain xp at a moderate pace. This means people will likely solo while LFP, so all players get to enjoy both solo and xp.

Consider the alternative, if solo xp is exactly equal to party xp, it would completely break the game for grouping as nobody would want to group, and you wouldn't be able to find the right people to group with most of the time, as nobody wants to risk running into a crap player and wiping the PT. There would be no incentive to group other than to be with other people while getting burned in XP by some mindless grinder.

Saying that you should play the game however you want and applying it to mean that solo xp should = group xp is just retarded. The result is that you won't be able to play how you want. You can only play one way, the solo way.

If group XP is double solo XP, then you can truly play how you want, b/c if you don't get a group you can always solo.

There will never be an instance that if you can't solo, you will be forced to group (lol), and therein lies the fallacy of the argument for having solo XP = group XP = playing any way you want.

Savvy?

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 6:36pm by odinpingpong
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#76 Dec 15 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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What's the point on playing MMOs then


Because the content always changes and the game never "stops". When I play solo content on an off-line game I eventually beat that game. With an MMO I can always be doing something. It is nice to do things solo and join a group to accomplish something needed, it's not so nice being "forced" to group with just about everything you do.

I agree with an earlier poster that alot of the games content should be obtainable solo, especially pertaining to mission and things of that sort. Nothing worse than trying to get a group together when you have only a short time to play to knock out a COP or such.
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#77 Dec 16 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I like playing together in groups.
I don't like elitest players that instead of having fun want to make it more "effeciant" which means you don't get to play your job in a way thats fun but instead are reduced to doing one or two commands over and over again.

When that happens it tends to shy me from wanting to play in a group because I get to do more with my skills when playing alone. I don't think areas should have to be unlocked. All areas should be open to explore and for you to choose wether or not to do the story or just do side quests or end game boss fights.

I also don't like the level cap quests. You should be able to just level from 1 to 75-99 or whatever without having to stop and find a group to help you past the cap. We need less time sinks and more fun.
#78 Dec 16 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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aldistuck wrote:
I like playing together in groups.
I don't like elitest players that instead of having fun want to make it more "efficient" (spelling fixed) which means you don't get to play your job in a way thats fun but instead are reduced to doing one or two commands over and over again..


It's one thing to have fun and play your own style but it's something completely different if you are completely gimping yourself and your group at the same time.

If you find that is often the case there are several things to realize:

1. You might be playing the wrong class/job for you.
2. You might be playing the wrong game for you.
3. The game design sucks because you should be able to have fun and be efficient at the same time.
4. Or you might just suck and need to go back to single player games.

I'm not sure which is the case but as for me I had a great time optimizing my jobs' damage (for my DRG) and buffs/debuffs/healing (for my RDM).
#79 Dec 16 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Whether you solo or group should for the most part be purely up to your whim. A small incentive to party is good, but you shouldn't be obligated to party the way you were in XI for so long. There should be multiple ways to achieve the same goals.

Personally I want to party. I like to party, but I want to party with people I know, and I don't want to be forced to party with people that I don't because my friends aren't around.

One thing XI didn't do very well was make it so that parties were greater than the sum of their parts. While you HAD to party, your individual performance didn't intricately intertwine with your party members (depending somewhat on your job). For the most part, you interacted with your party members in two or three ways using the boring old triad (tank-healer-dps). Jobs worked together, but they didn't compliment eachother. A Samurai and a Monk don't really add to one another aside from maybe doing a SC, and that is the only way in which one makes the other more valuable to the party. They may as well be in separate parties, or for that matter, soloing.
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#80 Dec 17 2009 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:

You can still do the exact same thing if solo leveling were viable. If you like crafting while searching for a group, then I don't think anyone should stop you from doing that. However, I also don't think you should force thousands of players into groups for everything just to assuage the feeling of "man, I should be gaining levels."

Lack of solo content was one of FFXI's biggest problems, and SE clearly has begun attempting to address that issue.


A winner is you.

I like soloing, I like not being restricted by other peoples skill and time. Now, at the end game, I am all about the group or for PvP (Which I doubt there will be any). But for simply leveling up, learning new skills, etc... I dont want to be forced to group to level/level at a respectable rate.
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#81 Dec 18 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I loved solo leveling in xi. So peaceful and relaxing from the din of carnage the rest of the game offered. If you died, you knew it was your fault.

PT's are also fantastic, so many great people, fun experiences. So many small problems stacked up though which make it difficult to get pt's as particular classes or if you're not in a decent linkshell etc.

I hope solo'ing becomes more integrated into ffxiv. I love playing with my friends but there are times that you just want to play the game, enjoy the world without the hassle of every day virtual life. I want to take on the difficult mobs on my own then turn to some nearby spectating crowd and give them a /bow :)

More solo'ing.
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#82 Dec 18 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I for one have played both FFXI and WoW. I had put in a little over 3 years into FFXI with some off and on time. As for WoW, only a couple months. Why the difference in time played you may ask? Story, I like a good story to a game. WoW's lack of story made me quit. However, FFXI's time consuming activities made me quit. I'm an Assistant Manager with only a few hrs in my day when I work and I work anywhere from 6am-1am.

Don't get me wrong, I love the grouping aspect of FFXI very much. However, I don't feel like it's something that should be forced on players all the time. WoW had a good thing going for it when it came to lvling. But give me a quest that has a high reward that requires either I be in a group to accomplish or a higher lvl to do by myself if I see fit. How about a boss to fight within the story that requires a group to beat. Of course make endgame activities harder so you have to be in a group, but maybe this time don't make the fights so ridiculously long.

All I'm trying to say is cater to both play styles. Let me go out and kill something that might be my lvl and get decent exp or 5 lvls higher and get good exp for it by myself. At the same time let me go out with some people and kill something 10 lvls higher and get great exp. I enjoy both solo and group play, neither method is right or wrong. Remember it's an MMORPG, a role playing game you get to play with others. You choose the character, the role it takes, and how you play it. That is what makes it role playing, you can even really get into it and create a persona for that character. Just because you're playing with other people doesn't mean you always have to rely on them to accomplish something. Not everyone is a hardcore gamer, an MMO should be open to anyone regardless of play styles.
#83 Dec 18 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Frankly I'm tired of seeing all the solo friendly, casual MMO's coming out since WoW's success. Supporting worthwhile group play requires the community to participate, and the problem with trying to balance both solo and group play is that the majority of players end up taking the path of least resistance.

Whatever nets the most exp per hour will be the norm, and because of the prep time required for grouping, solo play will always be the answer. Then you have the snowball effect, as more people solo the amount available to group goes down, the harder it is to build a group, the more efficient soloing becomes, and on and on. I watched this happen in EQ2 shortly after launch when they revamped the entire game from 'EQ - the sequel' to 'EQ - the WoW edition', and quit immediately afterward. I was FORCED to solo in a game where both options were equally 'available'. If I wanted to play solo, I'd pick a single player game where the story and graphics weren't compromised in order to build a multiplayer world. A world where nobody wants to interact with each other short of making themselves look like idiots in a public chat channel.

I still believe you can't strike a balance between the two unless they are striving for different goals, or soloing is challenging enough that not everyone can succeed at it. Otherwise, if instead both are required to advance, then you always have something to do regardless of whether you have an hour to play or an entire day.
#84 Dec 18 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Uh, so make it easier to assemble a functional group? You make it sound like it's some unattainable goal, when it's very simple. It's not some foregone conclusion that groups have to take an hour plus to assemble. If we're to believe what they say about FFXIV, the process is already very streamlined.

Maybe it would help to think of FFXI and work backwards. There's a vast difference between making 10% more xp in groups like you might in some MMOs, and making 500% more in groups like in FFXI. There are lots of happy mediums.
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#85 Dec 18 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Uh, so make it easier to assemble a functional group? You make it sound like it's some unattainable goal, when it's very simple. It's not some foregone conclusion that groups have to take an hour plus to assemble. If we're to believe what they say about FFXIV, the process is already very streamlined.

Maybe it would help to think of FFXI and work backwards. There's a vast difference between making 10% more xp in groups like you might in some MMOs, and making 500% more in groups like in FFXI. There are lots of happy mediums.


I'm sure the process is less painful in FFXIV. It couldn't be any worse. The risk is that they've made everyone more generic to achieve that goal, but that's another issue. My experience in solo friendly games is that people aren't even patient enough to wait the 5-10 minutes it takes to fill up the group unless they are required to. Most of the time an invite is flat out rejected.

AureliusSir was advocating 0% more exp in groups, and in that case I don't believe you can have an active grouping community. There needs to be a bonus, and it needs to be whatever is necessary to give people incentive to wait the amount of time it takes to form a group on average. If forming groups is relatively easy and 10% is enough to get people to wait ten minutes, then that's fine. In FFXI the percentage difference was enough to get most people to wait hours. I agree there can be a happy medium between the two.


Edited, Dec 18th 2009 5:24pm by Calispel
#86 Dec 18 2009 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah ok, well I agree that no grouping bonus would really discourage grouping. There needs to be at least some bonus-- it doesn't have to be huge, just enough to encourage grouping.

I'm not worried about jobs being generic though. I'm much more concerned with jobs not being fleshed out at all. If every job can do a little of everything, that's fine (it would have been an improvement to the jobs in XI that only had a handful of useful abilities), and will definitely curtail extensive party construction time.

FFXI's xp system was just awful though. You needed a certain number of people of certain job roles and you needed to target certain mobs of a certain level range. Obviously it's going to take time to assemble a party that works when you're so restricted. Moreover though, the gameplay was just not very fun. The reason people were so hung up on leveling as quickly as possible was because the leveling process was so excruciating. Sure there are always people who want to race to max level regardless, but when you make it so painful, it really gets people on edge about it.

Anyway, I don't know if SE has actually learned any lessons about all this from XI (you have to wonder why they wouldn't fix it if they had), but god, let's hope so.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#87 Dec 19 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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You should get some decent XP while soloing, but XP should increase while partying.
Problem solved.
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#88 Dec 21 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You should get some decent XP while soloing, but XP should increase while partying.
Problem solved.


Really? XP in a party will come at a good speed and a higher tiered monster can be fought so xp being higher in a party is a given. If xp were given a bonus in a party that would be unbalanced ****.

As far as we know about FFXIV parties play a smaller role than they do in FFXI because of the lack of levels/exp. If it's down to ability farming from weapons (as is the presumption) then any party/solo setup will work.
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#89 Dec 21 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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I'm for both. I enjoy being goofy in a group but also enjoy the challenge from soloing.
Shoot I remember swearing up and down when I was stuck at level 50 for my whole summer vaction back in 2004 lol
It was so frustrating! a huge waste of time that could of been solved if XI was more solo friendly.
I remember a good friend quitting because he couldn't get a party.
So yeah, grouping fun and all, but sometimes ya just want to go solo and rape stuff mindlessly!
Plus, you aren't really alone if you got a good linkshell
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#90 Dec 22 2009 at 2:56 AM Rating: Default
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Calispel wrote:
Frankly I'm tired of seeing all the solo friendly, casual MMO's coming out since WoW's success. Supporting worthwhile group play requires the community to participate, and the problem with trying to balance both solo and group play is that the majority of players end up taking the path of least resistance.

Whatever nets the most exp per hour will be the norm, and because of the prep time required for grouping, solo play will always be the answer. Then you have the snowball effect, as more people solo the amount available to group goes down, the harder it is to build a group, the more efficient soloing becomes, and on and on. I watched this happen in EQ2 shortly after launch when they revamped the entire game from 'EQ - the sequel' to 'EQ - the WoW edition', and quit immediately afterward. I was FORCED to solo in a game where both options were equally 'available'. If I wanted to play solo, I'd pick a single player game where the story and graphics weren't compromised in order to build a multiplayer world. A world where nobody wants to interact with each other short of making themselves look like idiots in a public chat channel.

I still believe you can't strike a balance between the two unless they are striving for different goals, or soloing is challenging enough that not everyone can succeed at it. Otherwise, if instead both are required to advance, then you always have something to do regardless of whether you have an hour to play or an entire day.


I pretty much agree with all of this. I play EQ2 also, and it has gotten so retarded that it is actually detrimental to group to level up. It is much more efficient to do thousands of little 5-10 minute errands (I can't even call them quests anymore) for xp, coin, and AA than it is to group, explore dungeons, and hunt named mobs. I'm tired of WoW clones. I'm tired of talking to some dude with a feather over his head to kill 6 of this and click 3 of that. It is really sad how many game mechanics and features that are both in EQ2 and WoW. Both games were released at the same time, and I'm not interested enough to keep up with game updates to know who ripped off who... but the leveling/questing system, the way mobs leash, the "dressing room" thing, EQ2's upcoming "battlegrounds" revamp, are pretty much identical. I'm tired of everything being instanced and playing really easy games.

I will wait and see how FF14 shapes up before I decide if I like it, but from what I have read so far, my excitement is waning. Guild leves? Sounds like kill 10 snakes harvest 4 bushes to me. Sounds like that will be the primary way to level (skill up). All these game studios want to yank WoW subs and get a piece of that pie by making a bigger and badder WoW. Well, it's not going to happen. They make WoW clones and get a few subs, but people that want to play WoW... are playing WoW.

IMO SE should be looking to games like FFXI and Everquest. Someone needs to ball up and put their money on the line developing their own thing. This new trend of easy MMOs that cater to the lowest common denominator has gotten old. Soloing to level cap should be possible, but it should be the slowest and least rewarding way to get there. Or you should have to play a class specifically built for soloing like bst, even though bst wasn't designed explicitly for soloing, it's just an example. Make people want to group to level up, but make soloing possible if you can't group or can't play long. The mindset of needing to make meaningful progress solo even if you only have 20 minutes to play is making these games way too easy.

If FF14 is going to be another WoW clone, which I fear it might be, I'll continue to wait patiently for an MMO that doesn't suck. Oh, and if SE wants a piece of the WoW pie, they will have to implement PvP. Preferably just go ahead and rip off WoW's pvp systems. In this era of MMOs, your game has to have PvP to compete with juggernauts like WoW. If they just release some WoW style PvE with no PvP, I expect the game to do relatively poorly. They would be better off just making FF11 2.0 with better graphics and sound.

And the new tarus are horribly disappointing and not cute at all. The other races look much better, but I play a taru so I'm not happy about that.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2009 3:11am by xXMalevolenceXx
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