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FF14 - Slow and steady please!Follow

#52 Oct 22 2009 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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I will not pick up Final Fantasy XIV if Sephiroth is not a playable character.

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#53 Oct 22 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I just hope they have a lot more story driven quests like this one..

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Babban_Ny_Mheillea_(Quest)

The reward isn't spectacular but the story, with it being a quest, is freakin awesome. If they had a bunch like it on top of the already cool missions I'd be one happy ****.
#54 Oct 22 2009 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
You always lose time. In basically every game. Since the dawn of video games, when you die and have to reset, or go from game over-> menu-> save point. That's very different from god mode.

Some punish you with far less time than others, but honestly, even when it's 20 seconds and then you start over from where you just were, it can be very frustrating. Especially when you're faced with a real challenge and you might have to retry 20 times.

But it always comes down to time. Whether it's 10 seconds or 10 hours. Personally I'll take less-- dying always sucks. And when it's severe it discourages you from taking on tougher challenges, which makes the game super boring.


10 seconds is WAY too short to be any sort of detriment. You're up and at 'em, fully restored and ready to go in a matter of seconds. Think about that! That breeds zerg tactics. Not at all an intelligent form of combat and something that detracts from using any actual strategy in one's fighting. If there isn't a detriment, nothing will be challenging. Ever. Oh sure, you might have a few wipes, but what does it matter? Death doesn't hurt at all...
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#55 Oct 23 2009 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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NO NO, I don't want to wait for the airship to arrive for 10min.
#56 Oct 23 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Well said, OP. I feel the same way. I left FFXI recently (a few months maybe), and I have not been able to find a single game that comes close to FFXI. The feeling of acomplishment, the fear of exploring the unknown, spending time staring at the scenery... FFXI will forever be the first MMO I truly fell in love with. I hope, more than anything, that FFXIV takes everything that made FFXI fantastic, and sticks with it.
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#57 Oct 23 2009 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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I played FFXI for 3 years before quitting and moving to WoW. I have fond memories of FFXI but I also remember just how painful it was waiting and waiting and waiting for a party that was then going to be a mindless grind for hours and hours for maybe a level. Death was far FAR to harsh, and I was so thankful for WoW' system of death. Because in WoW, if I failed at a certain objective and died, I felt that I could try a few more times and see if I improve. In FFXI dying ment loosing hours of leveling time, and possible hours of travel and preparation and party gathering. I felt extremely constricted by the game's death penalty and I would often not bother doing quests or missions unless I had more then enough people and much higher level. Synthing in FFXI was pointless since every item was resellable and it took far more gil to level a craft then it would really ever produce. Not to mention the imbalances of the jobs which was only rarely adressed and when it was jobs were either made retardely powerful or just retarded. Finally I gave up after camping that darned Leaping Lizzy for 10 spawns of 2-5+ hours each with no drop. Plus the fact that I went to college where I didnt have 5-6 hours a night to play. And really, I found that most of the parting and questing was really easy.... if you could get the people together to do it. WoW you can get alot of people to do alot of the Raids, but the raids themselves are challenging and rewarding.(Faction Champions are a madhouse of frustration and excitement)I could go on and on but it's late.

Now having said that I'm still cautiously optimistic about FFXIV. I realize that likely all the death and mindless waiting and grinding will be gone, since that's a part of the old paradigm of MMORPG's. I know that most FFXI players are also WoW haters( and I wonder how many of you actually gave it a chance and tried to make it fun), but in my experience if SE learns from WoW and takes the good parts of it while discarding all the tedious, mind numbing, heart breaking parts off FFXI out, FFXIV has a shot at being a truly wonderful game.
#58 Oct 23 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I honestly think we should go back to the days where dying meant you dropped all of your items on the ground and only had a certain amount of time to run back and pick them up. Is it evil and sadistic? Yes. But it's also situationally hilarious.
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#59 Oct 23 2009 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, but I think one thing that I liked about FFXI is that you felt more like you were part of a bigger world. I was trying to think why and I thought it might be something to do with the environments and buildings being smaller in WoW.. but I don't think that's the case. I think it's more that you can do anything bar-endgame alone pretty much, and there's no feeling of dependancy on the rest of the community or world at all. In FFXI for example, to do a lot of things you need someone to get your back or help in some way.

I hope to an extent that stays, I think that whilst SE has had a great idea for the guild leves, I'd like it if the overworld felt a bit more like FFXI's in that it was sorta dangerous to travel around in and it felt risky, and not like you could take down that Marid you can see in the distance, as well as his 12 brothers if they showed up.

It's hard to explain really, but there was some loss of connection with the world in wow that i felt when playing it, perhaps it was also the lack of storyline involved?
#60 Oct 23 2009 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
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10 seconds is WAY too short to be any sort of detriment. You're up and at 'em, fully restored and ready to go in a matter of seconds. Think about that! That breeds zerg tactics. Not at all an intelligent form of combat and something that detracts from using any actual strategy in one's fighting. If there isn't a detriment, nothing will be challenging. Ever. Oh sure, you might have a few wipes, but what does it matter? Death doesn't hurt at all...


Ok, but seriously tell me that you've never lost a fight in a game, only lost 10 seconds, and were still really frustrated.

wtf is up with all the sadists these days? The idea of the penalty isn't to make you upset or angry. It's just to let you know that "you lost, try again noob." It doesn't need to be severe at all. I've been playing video games my entire life, and watching people play them just as long. These penalties do not make people have more fun.

As for zerg tactics, no, absolutely not, wrongo. In a game like FFXI, sure, but that's a terrible model to go off of. If you were in a group, you wouldn't be able to get up and do a zombie zerg after 10 seconds-- the 10 seconds only applies when the group wipes. The idea is and has always been that after you lose, you start over completely. Obviously that doesn't work if you let people start over without letting the enemy recover. You can still allow midbattle raises, but they obviously would have more balanced penalties (time, MP cost, weakness, etc.)

Let me spell it out for you. The penalty for death in FFXI accounts for many factors of time. Raise time, MP recovery, HP recovery, XP recovery, Gil recovery (lost food/buffs), etc. Typically a death itself penalizes you anywhere from 10-50 minutes, depending on the speed and quality of your raise and your ability to recoup your losses. That doesn't factor in the penalty of failure. If you failed, then you also lost that time. Even if you failed a 5 minute fight and get to try again right away, you were still penalized by a few minutes.

And that's generally enough. In fact, it's better to allow people to jump right back in with little reservation, because that's what gets people into a flow. You want people to feel free to challenge themselves, not be afraid that they'll be setback if they fail. It's pretty basic psychology.

If you're depending on a death penalty to make a more challenging game, you're doing it wrong. You make the battles harder, not the penalty for losing greater.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#61 Oct 23 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:

If you're depending on a death penalty to make a more challenging game, you're doing it wrong. You make the battles harder, not the penalty for losing greater.


This. So much.
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#62 Oct 23 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Default
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Well I think the main reason there is a race to get to max level in MMOs or whatever is because of PVP. Luckily FFXIV isn't going to have pvp so there will be o noes I'm behind the level curve and I'm getting rofl stomped now or whatever.
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#63 Oct 23 2009 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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I thought the consequences of death in FFXI were just fine. Yes it sucked but in a way it forced you to pay attention and be careful. If you play your role bad and made mistakes you paid the price and I completely agree with that ideology of paying the consequences for your actions.

On the other hand obviously for harder NM and boss fights etc... you should almost expect to die, and hopefully learn from your mistakes so that in the future you die less. Dying shouldn't be fun or too easily recoverable and should force you to think about and re-evaluate your previous actions that forced you to wind up a corpse.

Aside from being trained by people, When you were playing the game in normal situations when people died it was usually for a reason. Whether pulling to much hate, not paying attention, or making a mistake or judgement error or not being able to control hate or taking on a foe or foes that are too powerful and your party or parties are not working together. Whatever the reason, if you died it was usually for a reason. The penalty of death should make you actually think and care about what your doing, because the consequences of death suck.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 5:09pm by COGSs
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#64 Oct 23 2009 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Dying already makes you pay attention and reevaluate your actions because it already cost your group time. If you add up the time-sinks for death in FFXI, then you'll find it was ridiculous.

You're fighting an enemy and one of your DD died - the mob will now live longer. If it's an enemy with a larger health pool (or if you're low level), then this could be an additional couple of minutes. Now your mage (if you have one capable of doing so) has to raise that dead person. Now you have to wait for weakness to wear off, so there's a +5 minute wait timer. Otherwise, you're killing slower for those 5 minutes because that individual is either not fighting or is fighting weakened and doing less damage. Now, ontop of all that, for the individual who died you just lost 8% of your XP. In a fast group at max level, this may be nothing more than 6 minutes worth of fighting to recover. In any other group at any other level, though, that might be 10-15 minutes of back-track. Congratulations. You died once and you lost anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes worth of time. That's one person dying once, and it's assuming it's not someone who's vitally important to the group (tank, healer). If a full group wipes, which is much more common as a worst-case scenario, then you might have lost 40 or 45 minutes after you pick up all the pieces, you're ready to go again and you make up the XP you just lost. If you really like losing 15-45 minutes worth of effort every time you die (or a group full wipes), then you must *really* like grinding XP.

Personally, that kind of extra time sink is crazy. I see nothing wrong with the penalty for dying being "You just lost the time you put into that attempt". That can range from a minute to 30 minutes depending on what crazy shenanigans you're up to, but anything after that is just malicious.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 7:30pm by ChanchanXI
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#65 Oct 23 2009 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
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If you play your role bad and made mistakes you paid the price and I completely agree with that ideology of paying the consequences for your actions.


1: Unfortunately, if you play poorly, it is often the other people who pay for your mistakes. This was the source of a great deal of hostility, and eventually elitism in FFXI. It was the reason people depended so much on ideal setups that they couldn't get, and led to people LFG for hours. Nobody wanted to be penalized for playing with people who weren't really good.

2: I agree that people should be responsible for the consequences of their actions in. real. life. This is a game. We're kind of trying to get away from the things that make life taxing and just have fun. If you punish people for playing your game, you're just asking them to quit.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#66 Oct 24 2009 at 3:05 AM Rating: Good
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COGSs wrote:
I thought the consequences of death in FFXI were just fine. Yes it sucked but in a way it forced you to pay attention and be careful. If you play your role bad and made mistakes you paid the price and I completely agree with that ideology of paying the consequences for your actions.


The death penalty in FFXI did nothing but deter the vast majority of the playerbase from tinkering with anyone that went against the grain. They simply waited until someone was bored enough to test something out, solidified that it would work, and THEN go with it because it was proven to work. Like the other class combos, there wasn't a combo that the majority of people would tinker with and collectively come together with something that would work; someONE or a very small few someONES would test and evaluate a combination, post their results on its pros/merits, and THEN people would even *TRY* it out.

FFXI had the potential to be the most custom MMO to ever be created (aside from successors), but the extremely harsh penalties on experimentation and failure -- good failure -- made it not even worth toying around. Relying on the death penalty being as harsh as it is in FFXI doesn't really do anything but stretch out your downtime so that it takes you longer to get to whatever your goal is. It's nothing more than a *ridiculous* timesink and trying to justify it as anything else is foolish and asinine.
#67 Oct 24 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aren't we forgetting that quite a lot of us have already played FFXI and therefore have experienced it already? What I mean by this is that the people that are looking to 'rush' through leveling will still be 'rushing' and the only problem will be the lack of knowledge knocking around at that time [because the game is new]and Wiki wont be the great source of knowledge it is right now, although I'm sure storylines/content/jobs classes etc may be different, no matter what they produce we will all come with preconceived expectations and experience of what the game is going to be about.

I would love the game to have all the things that made FFXI special for us but I'm really hoping its not just going to be a FFXI rehash with basically the same things going on.
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#68 Oct 24 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Ok, but seriously tell me that you've never lost a fight in a game, only lost 10 seconds, and were still really frustrated.

wtf is up with all the sadists these days? The idea of the penalty isn't to make you upset or angry. It's just to let you know that "you lost, try again noob." It doesn't need to be severe at all. I've been playing video games my entire life, and watching people play them just as long. These penalties do not make people have more fun.

As for zerg tactics, no, absolutely not, wrongo. In a game like FFXI, sure, but that's a terrible model to go off of. If you were in a group, you wouldn't be able to get up and do a zombie zerg after 10 seconds-- the 10 seconds only applies when the group wipes. The idea is and has always been that after you lose, you start over completely. Obviously that doesn't work if you let people start over without letting the enemy recover. You can still allow midbattle raises, but they obviously would have more balanced penalties (time, MP cost, weakness, etc.)

Let me spell it out for you. The penalty for death in FFXI accounts for many factors of time. Raise time, MP recovery, HP recovery, XP recovery, Gil recovery (lost food/buffs), etc. Typically a death itself penalizes you anywhere from 10-50 minutes, depending on the speed and quality of your raise and your ability to recoup your losses. That doesn't factor in the penalty of failure. If you failed, then you also lost that time. Even if you failed a 5 minute fight and get to try again right away, you were still penalized by a few minutes.

And that's generally enough. In fact, it's better to allow people to jump right back in with little reservation, because that's what gets people into a flow. You want people to feel free to challenge themselves, not be afraid that they'll be setback if they fail. It's pretty basic psychology.

If you're depending on a death penalty to make a more challenging game, you're doing it wrong. You make the battles harder, not the penalty for losing greater.


How about increasing the challenge AFTER death? A decrease in equipment durability, a decrease in stats (the same weakness you experienced in FFXI), and/or a simple disability to attack before your body has been fully restored to health. Maybe the monster gets a bit of an ego buff because of your defeat, giving a buff to its stats. You've got your 10-15 seconds casting raise, another 10-15 getting fully cured (depending on classes available/item usefulness), and let's say another 30 seconds for your stats to return to normal. Then, of course, there's re-buffing time, should you choose to take it.

You could probably double those times and still have a dangerous fight ahead of you--Death is its own penalty, yes, but that penalty is hardly severe when mechanics simply let you sidestep it in a matter of 10 seconds! If you want to breed strategy, you make death an obstacle that you want to avoid but that won't be the end-all be-all of fights... unless it happens a lot. Then you know you're either doing something wrong or the monster is simply beyond you at your current skill level (I'm including player skill here, too).
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#69 Oct 24 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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Deila wrote:
How about increasing the challenge AFTER death? A decrease in equipment durability, a decrease in stats (the same weakness you experienced in FFXI), and/or a simple disability to attack before your body has been fully restored to health. Maybe the monster gets a bit of an ego buff because of your defeat, giving a buff to its stats. You've got your 10-15 seconds casting raise, another 10-15 getting fully cured (depending on classes available/item usefulness), and let's say another 30 seconds for your stats to return to normal. Then, of course, there's re-buffing time, should you choose to take it.

You could probably double those times and still have a dangerous fight ahead of you--Death is its own penalty, yes, but that penalty is hardly severe when mechanics simply let you sidestep it in a matter of 10 seconds! If you want to breed strategy, you make death an obstacle that you want to avoid but that won't be the end-all be-all of fights... unless it happens a lot. Then you know you're either doing something wrong or the monster is simply beyond you at your current skill level (I'm including player skill here, too).


From what it sounds like, you're posing the above scenario assuming that an individual can be raised while a fight is still in progress. However, that doesn't have to necessarily be true. In FFXI, yes you could raise an individual mid-battle (at the expense of your healer doing nothing for a good amount of time). But in at least one other game (WoW), aside one or two special abilities, you cannot raise a character while you are still in combat. For the most part if you go down during a fight, then you're down for that attempt for good. I don't see the problem with that kind of a death system at all. If everyone goes down, then you just lost all the time you put into that attempt.

Does it really *need* to be more of a time sink than that? Isn't **********, I just wasted X minutes fighting that guy and lost. Now I have to start all over!" enough of a deterrent?
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#70 Oct 24 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Well that's the thing though-- most people SHOULD be dying quite a bit. If they're not, they're not being challenged enough, and will grow to find the game boring.

The answer is not fewer, more severe deaths, but more, less severe deaths. This provides a constant feedback of how you need to improve, and allows you to find a zone of optimal challenge.

And I definitely don't think that making a battle that's apparently already either too challenging or challenging enough even -harder- as a death penalty.

Too often people want to inject some kind of rationality to how games should be based on some odd standards, but successful games are very much a product of appealing psychological phenomena. One of the most fundamental of these is that players need to be challenged, but not made to focus on avoiding failure, but instead to see failure as feedback that they can learn and improve from. And -generally- these aren't even as subjective or matters of preference as people would like to believe, but clearcut rules of human emotion and behavior.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#71 Oct 24 2009 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Well that's the thing though-- most people SHOULD be dying quite a bit. If they're not, they're not being challenged enough, and will grow to find the game boring.

The answer is not fewer, more severe deaths, but more, less severe deaths. This provides a constant feedback of how you need to improve, and allows you to find a zone of optimal challenge.

And I definitely don't think that making a battle that's apparently already either too challenging or challenging enough even -harder- as a death penalty.

Too often people want to inject some kind of rationality to how games should be based on some odd standards, but successful games are very much a product of appealing psychological phenomena. One of the most fundamental of these is that players need to be challenged, but not made to focus on avoiding failure, but instead to see failure as feedback that they can learn and improve from. And -generally- these aren't even as subjective or matters of preference as people would like to believe, but clearcut rules of human emotion and behavior.


Therein lies a problem--No two gamers are alike. What one player considers challenging another considers too easy, and possibly vice versa. We can't cater to hardcore and softcore gamers alike on the same exact subject. Alternatives, maybe. How do you propose a middle ground? And even then, how do you make that middle ground something that doesn't appeal to JUST the mid-challenge people? I agree that psychology is involved here... but how do we find the answer that everyone can agree on when no two minds are going to think alike?

Risk vs. Reward. Who knows, maybe during some leves raising will be forbidden (like having laws on Ivalice). Or maybe they'll implement death penalties during certain leves along the lines of what other people have mentioned.
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#72 Oct 24 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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Deila wrote:

Therein lies a problem--No two gamers are alike. What one player considers challenging another considers too easy, and possibly vice versa. We can't cater to hardcore and softcore gamers alike on the same exact subject. Alternatives, maybe. How do you propose a middle ground? And even then, how do you make that middle ground something that doesn't appeal to JUST the mid-challenge people? I agree that psychology is involved here... but how do we find the answer that everyone can agree on when no two minds are going to think alike?

Risk vs. Reward. Who knows, maybe during some leves raising will be forbidden (like having laws on Ivalice). Or maybe they'll implement death penalties during certain leves along the lines of what other people have mentioned.


While I'm loathe to bring up anything about WoW on any FF Alla forum, I have to admit they provided a good solution to the problem you're describing. How *do* you maintain your hardcore and casual player base without one or the other being disappointed by the other?

Well, WoW's way to fix that [At least in the latest expansion] was to separate content into difficulty levels. You have your leveling dungeons that support a 5 man party at various levels. You then have "Heroic" versions of those same dungeons for max level players - the mobs are scaled up, and their loot tables are adjusted as well to cater to fresh level 80 players. After that, you have raids. These start off requiring 10 people and scale in difficulty depending on which raid it happens to be. Some are like Limbus events for those of you who've only played FFXI while others are closer to Salvage; they last anywhere from 30min to multiple hours depending on just which zone you're in. However, each of these raids have "Hard modes" for their bosses. If your group is good enough (or wants additional challenges and thus better loot tables), you can cue a boss to enter a "Hard mode" and the challenge bumps up quite a few notches. There are also 25 man versions of all these raids, as well as "Hard modes" for the 25man versions of the bosses. That way, your group of casual players who just want to experience the raid dungeons and the bosses can do so, while your hardcore "I want the absolute best!" type players can have that too.

I'm not saying that's a perfect solution, of course. That's just one company's solution to the problem. However, I thought it was pretty clever. Perhaps some guildleves will be equivilant to "hard mode" bosses. You have a boss who you can normally do, or you can choose to fight him with 3 additional enemies. Or he's pre-enraged. Or XYZ. There's a lot of possibilities in that kind of system, and you can just scale the kinds of gear one would receive depending on the challenge rating the group chose. You also prevent people from feeling like they can't compete with anyone unless they do Endgame Event #815 they absolutely hate.
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#73 Oct 24 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Therein lies a problem--No two gamers are alike. What one player considers challenging another considers too easy, and possibly vice versa. We can't cater to hardcore and softcore gamers alike on the same exact subject. Alternatives, maybe. How do you propose a middle ground? And even then, how do you make that middle ground something that doesn't appeal to JUST the mid-challenge people? I agree that psychology is involved here... but how do we find the answer that everyone can agree on when no two minds are going to think alike?

Risk vs. Reward. Who knows, maybe during some leves raising will be forbidden (like having laws on Ivalice). Or maybe they'll implement death penalties during certain leves along the lines of what other people have mentioned.


Well actually, my point is that all gamers are pretty alike, because they're humans and have a similar psychology. While they have varying skill levels, there's absolutely no "problem" in addressing players of various skill levels. Video games have been doing it nearly since they began. You have varied, increasing difficulty, whether it's "hard mode" or "optional boss". You don't look for a middle ground for everyone-- that'd be completely foolish.

FFXI for example, had every opportunity to do this, but failed facedown. The xp system penalized players for "overhunting." As a result, it discouraged challenge, because one of the easiest ways to challenge yourself in an RPG/MMO is to target stronger enemies. If players had been rewarding proportionally (or even slightly exponentially), they would have been encouraged to pursue challenges that met their ability (it also would have absolved the long-time dilemma of mob competition, but that's another matter).

Risk vs. Reward is a business principle. It doesn't really apply to psychology.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#74 Oct 25 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Default
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i agree with almost all of it... I dunno if you prefer battle to be slower but if you are, that is one thing i do disagree with. Slow battling is the main reason why I peetered off and eventually completely quit xi. for something that you do the most of, battle, in ffxi is very very borning, at least until like 70 plus when things start to die quicker. waiting so long between weapon swings just really is not fun. they need to make it fast, while i do agree make it easy to read and know what is going on. I think on field dmg displays, like the numbers that just pop up as you hit an enemy (color coordinated) are an effective way to keep speed and still have fast actions. also, unlike xi, visual icons or cues or something to let others know of your status effects (at least ailments) and enemy ailments, i really miss the little poison icons above the heads, xi was very lacking in this.
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#75 Oct 25 2009 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
WoW's leveling pace wasn't that fast if you took the time to do the quests...infact so far for me its just been just as fast as my FFXI experience...

FFXI was way too slow paced. And the only reason it was slow paced because the developers needed something to make up for their lack of content. WoW has so much content to offer, that it can make everything fast paced and you wil still never be able to make it through all the content it has to offer. Final Fantasy 11 is bare. Theres very few quests and what quests their were took forever and hardly rewarding. And then there was the god aweful grind, a time sink. Yes sometimes the grind was fun when you had a fun party but that was the people , NOT the game.
I hope final fantasy 14 offers TONS more quests. Its sad, its a final fantasy game yet 11 had almost no plot to it. And what plot it did have was pathetic compared to any of the other previous final fantasy games.

Faster speed means more content. Thats all their is to it. And I rather have more content.
This made me giggle.

And the post agreeing with this one made me roflmao.
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#76 Oct 26 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
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A good game is like a good book, when you are heading towards the end of the book, you don't want it to end, instead, you read less pages a day,you read it more slowly... I remember that newbie feeling of FFXI, the world was so big that was overwhelming. I really hope we have the same feeling in XIV. I remember my first party in Valkurm and it was awesome!
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#77 Oct 26 2009 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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I remember my first valkrum party as well!(especially the part where the whm diaga'd in the oasis camp..ah I've never seen so many people die so fast, or that many leeches devouring a player) /memories lol

On topic, I think the pacing in XI couldve been a tad faster, especially in the 35-55 range(or 35+ if you consider pre-ToAU). A bit more dynamic interaction would rock too, would be cool if you needed to hit certain notes as brd(ala guitar hero) to get maximum effects but overall it looks like they're kinda trying no?

Overall I agree for the most part, decent steady pace instead of being able to blaze through the levels..also either different areas with the same mobs/levels ooorrr different areas different mobs with similar difficulty/exp so its not always "o hey im lvl 12, time to hit the dunes", instead you could journey elsewehre and keep exping atleast somewhat refreshing(buburimu pen. anyone lol)
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#78 Oct 26 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't read everyone's posts past the first few but I whole-heartedly agree with the OP. FFXI had so much more atmosphere and absorbing content and story than WoW or WAR or Aion, all of which I have extensive experience with. It really floors me that people think WoW had any semblance of engaging story or atmosphere. The music alone will be reason enough to pick up FFXIV for me.
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#79 Oct 28 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
One of my fondest memories of FFXI when it was released *Sparkly new* was that I never felt like I was in a race. I was never in a hurry to be the biggest, baddest, high-level out there. My first day of FFXI I went out to kill crawlers for a bit, came back in town and did auctions for a bit, sat and chatted with people outside the mog house till we had a big circle of random people (who eventually became friends). It was nice. I was never in a hurry to get *insert goal* before the next person did. For me, the path towards 75 (for the first time anyway) WAS the game. It was about the journey, not actually getting there. Being excited and a bit scared at every new turn, and not rushing past it resulted in more fond nostalgia, and built more memories for me than any game since has been able to. I was a tortoise who knew that the hare was just going to be smushed flat asking for a raise as I walked by on the way to the finish line.

I missed that greatly when WOW was released. Yes the game was fun in its own way, but nothing truly felt rewarding. No accomplishment felt like it was earned in the same way. Each zone felt like it was whisked away as fast as it approached, leveling went so fast. Combat dialog tended to fly by at such a rate that I was never even positive of the outcome unless I went back after each battle to read it again. Everything was just a rush to get to the end-game. Never once did I feel like my character was in any danger, or that any of the monsters were authentically scary. Death was just an annoyance, and if you were determined enough, you could just lunge at anything throwing caution to the wind. Rewards fell off of monsters like candy, and somewhere in the back of my mind I felt a bit of loathing to be wearing such powerful equipment without working hard to truly earn it.

This is my hope for FFXIV, that in a world where everyone is rushing to be bigger and better than everyone else, that FF14 won't have us flying past zones/areas without hardly experiencing them, that quests/missions will be memorable and monsters still scary. That combat and its log/text will still be at a pace that you can read and know whats going on. And yes, I actually hope that death has serious consequences. Cheating death, should always be part of the game. What's the point of risk-taking when there is little risk?
I hope FF14 can be "casual friendly" for people with limited time/attention span, but with a deeper rabbit hole for those of us wanting a more meaningful richer experience. Some things should take effort. Some things should take time. Rewards that are harder to obtain are far more shiny and bright.


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#80 Oct 28 2009 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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XIV does need to have the same kind of pace as XI, if only to distinguish it from other MMO's on the market.

Aion is just WoW with flying. Yeah, it is. I'm playing it right now. It's pretty fun but every single quest is either:

1) Go talk to this guy for 5% of your tnl.
2) Go kill 10 of these for 10% of your tnl.
3) Go kill this NM for 15% of your tnl.

It's shallow, and the only goal is to get exp. The items you get from quests are easily overshadowed by anything you can buy on the a/h, or even get from mobs.

I won't be playing it long, but for the time being it's keeping me occupied.

I really miss the challenge of XI. It really was difficult, especially in missions that required a co-ordinated group (Alexander, Sacrarium 4-3, Divine Might (if you don't manaburn), etc etc)

I miss actually TALKING to people in MMO's. FFXI forced you to either be friendly or be alone... other MMO's just don't have that, because there's not really any need to. I'm lucky, I got into a LS in Aion where people just want to shoot the breeze and have fun, but every other one I've seen (bar one or two) is endgame ONRY. Some of them even require WoW experience to join, believe it or not. And that's just sad.

Anyway, I digress.

XIV needs to be slow, have lots of content, quests with stories and proper cutscenes, missions, crafting that requires effort (and takes time), other little things that take time but you can still talk to people (choco racing, pankration), and of course the need to party!

We all like soloing from time to time but in my opinion you should only be able to get, at most, 50% of the exp/hr that an average party would make... people stopped partying in FFXI unless it was a Qufim sync, SMN burn or Colibri burn.

I think that's what made me quit. I never spoke to anyone outside of my LS or friend list for a long time.

Force us to be social, SE!

==============

EDIT: In relation to the EXP loss/death issue, Aion has a great system.

- Like FFXI, when you die, you lose exp.
- By talking to an NPC, you can regain this exp, for a price.
- You also become weakened after death, the time of weakness rises for the amount of times you've died without paying a Soul Healer to restore your exp.

So you can still take risks and learn by dying... but you'll have to pay for it later.

It's a nice little gil sink, and it's a totally optional one. When I died about 4 times, my weakness timer was about 3 minutes. And let's face it, no one likes losing exp. Just don't make the price extortionate and it won't upset many people.

Edited, Oct 28th 2009 11:23pm by Likibiki
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#81 Oct 28 2009 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like to include your post in this article in the upcoming issue of The Eorzea Times -- An online newspaper dedicated to spotlighting articles and events from around the web in relation to FFXIV. Of course all sources will be stated. If you're interested let me know.
#82 Oct 28 2009 at 10:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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In theory, I don't mind slow pacing in my MMOs.
In practice, most cases of slow pacing is a direct result of filler, timesink and a game designer's general hostility to casual players. Modern games have basically the same (if not more) amount of content of older slower paced games, it's just that the genre has since cut some of the more egregious instances of timesink and players predictably blaze through levels as though they were an extended tutorial.

The general disconnected feeling due to levelling speed is a common complaint and attributes to the higher turn-over rate of modern MMOs as opposed to Older ones. Which is bad news for developers who put down insane up-front costs and rely on sustaining subscriptions to make back their investment (much less generate profit). Going back to the old ways is a non-option, however, because the recently unveiled buying power of the time-constrained casual demographic is not something any company can afford to ignore.

So the question becomes, how do you make a game that's long enough to be a usurping experience without resorting to the timesinks and filler that drive away casual players?

Aion and some of the titles coming out 2010 have a more PvP focus (with a hearty PvE sidedish) knowing players will reach endgame at a decent clip and relying on them to entertain eachother. WoW is an example of a game that releases Expansions at a comparatively blistering pace to keep people idling at endgame p(l)aying, while supporting many PvP options for players to chew on between releases.

FFXIV seems like an odd duck to me.
It's stance on PvP lets me know they won't be relying on that (easy) way out. It's intense focus on the casual demographic also means they are unlikely to fall back into the bad timesink habits. I don't think they're likely to follow the expansion-carrot model of WoW; only WoW can really afford this method, they know whatever sum they spend on an expansion will see a ROI because they've paid up their initial development costs years ago and currently hold an outright monopoly on the market.

I'd almost think for a minute that SE spared no expense and gave their team the funding to make a game that has the tacky longevity of older games but jam packed with a delicious abundance of content to keep from having to use filler. But a few things seem suspiciously borderline budget-cut; recycled races, recycled enemies, a smaller world. I can't get a bead if these decisions are truly financial or just marketing decisions as they say.

For now, my fingers are firmly crossed.



Edited, Oct 29th 2009 1:15am by Zemzelette
#83 Oct 29 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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In my opinion, a game's pacing isn't solely on the shoulders of the developers. I think each individual player sets his or her own pace. When I first started FFXI, I spent over an hour just exploring Sandy. There was no quest right off the bat asking you to go kill rabbits, you were pretty much given free reign. In WoW, right as you log in, bam, quests to kill something. From that point on, you follow where the quests lead you, which ends up just being consistent and constant leveling. Most people didn't take the time to explore.

I have every intention of exploring as much of the starting cities as I can, before I even attempt to begin leveling, and when I do, I'm taking my sweet time. I prefer to set my own pace.

Most of my time is probably going to be crafting, because I'm incredibly interested in how those classes are going to turn out.

Bottom line, if people want to hardcore level to cap as fast as humanly possible, they're doing themselves a disservice. Missing out on the majority of a game isn't worth being able to say "Server First lvxxxx Gladiator lolz" Set your own pace, and play the game the way you want it to be played. Enjoy yourself.

As for death penalties, I think they need to be strict enough to give you caution when running into a group of monsters, but not so strict that you won't do it. In WoW, if you died, you simply ran back to your body and tried again. Repairs weren't a big deal, and the time lost wasn't so much that you wanted to pull your hair out, but at the end of the die, death wasn't something you feared, it was simply an inconvenience. In FFXI, after a certain point, there were times that if something checked DC, I would do my best to completely avoid it. If you wanted to explore, you brought a means to Invis/Sneak, for fear of dying. Death was far too easily achieved in FFXI, and the consequences far to severe. Anyone ever had to ask a friend to travel halfway across the world to give you a Raise, because some rabbit in the middle of some forest killed you? I'd hate something so strict to be brought back.

A middle ground needs to be met. If I check a raptor, and it says "Decent challenge," I should win if I pay attention/at full health/not under the influence of some drug. Even Match can be 50/50. Tough, I should be blowing cooldowns just to barely squeeze out a win. Give our gear durability if you need to. I don't really know how you'd take away experience, considering the new system, but if they do, don't make one death completely erase a half hour's worth of work.
#84 Nov 01 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
Hmmm...

There is so much I agree with on both sides of FFXI and WoW but I agree that "levelling" should be more slow paced like in FFXI. I also think it should feel more like a journey then a grind. I'm hoping that we can level by doing quests and missions. Quests being soloable and rewarding you with a moderate amount of experience whereas missions require a party and rewards would be fairly high with experience. I know this sounds a bit wowish but I think it could be done in a way that suits the Final Fantasy series even better than it does WoW. As in story line and music and companionship... give purpose to levelling... not so much gear drops and quest grinds or killing x mob in y area for days on end but a "journey". Missions always unlocked something which would give you the feeling of achievement. remember going for SEA access or Sky access? I had so much fun doing those things and made so many good friends. Maybe something like quests and missions in FFXI but more of them and providing a way to gain experience as an adventurer along the way.

I like killing the big bad HNMs in FFXI but I think we should be able to just go enter an instance during a repeatable mission and fight it rather than camp against linkshells that resort to botting or other 3rd party programs. Sound too much like WoW? why couldn't we acquire instance entrance pop items so that it would take effort by defeating so many "firebombs" on a side quest or something like that? and not just go in the instance everytime we felt like it. I would like to see it challenging but fair to everyone. Some of you might be thinking of kindrid seals but I was thinking more along the lines of bate for the monster to appear or something... story line story line story line.

There are alot of other areas FFXI could be improved in but I think it's for another thread. In my opinion SE has learned alot about MMOs with FFXI and I believe they are smart enough to draw a decent player base... I'm excited!!
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#85 Nov 01 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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FFXI death penalty, with 1/10 the exp loss would be perfectly fine. And no leveling down. >:O
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#86 Nov 08 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I disagree completely. Standing in a circle hitting a few macros for 4-5 hours wasnt fun sorry. I want end game explosive crazy content; not rabbits and fish.

Edit: Btw you get the sense of accomplishment in FFXI because everything takes forever and a day to do. In other MMOs that dont punish you endlessly the accomplishment is there at the end game where it should be. Raiding is a huge accomplishment, and for WoW the achievements (which some of them can be rediculously difficult) are QUITE rewarding. Try being a server first or world first, theres an accomplishment. Killing some crap for hours on end, or farming for 2 weeks for one ******* item is not an accomplishment, it's god damned retarded.

Edited, Nov 8th 2009 10:14pm by shaani
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#87 Nov 08 2009 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
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It would be nice if the death penalty was scaled to what you were attempting to do.

If you are a level 1 and just trying to fight some rabbits, minimal penalty and downtime.

If you are grinding out exp in a relatively easy area to grind and you die, more penalty, more downtime (you shouldn't have screwed up noob)

If you are fighting in a group that is higher level than the boss you are fighting and die, maximum penalty (noobs, take a breather and figure out what you are doing).

If you are fighting a boss that is rediculously tough and at endgame and waay over your level: Minimum penalty and downtime again. (You guys are crazy, keep trying)

Probably a really difficult system to implement.
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#88 Nov 09 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Shortly after i started playing FFXI, i received perhaps the best in-game advice ever from someone i met: "Always remember the reward in this game is the journey, Not the destination."


I have re-gifted that little gem many, many times.
#89 Nov 10 2009 at 2:23 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I disagree completely. Standing in a circle hitting a few macros for 4-5 hours wasnt fun sorry. I want end game explosive crazy content; not rabbits and fish.

Edit: Btw you get the sense of accomplishment in FFXI because everything takes forever and a day to do. In other MMOs that dont punish you endlessly the accomplishment is there at the end game where it should be. Raiding is a huge accomplishment, and for WoW the achievements (which some of them can be rediculously difficult) are QUITE rewarding. Try being a server first or world first, theres an accomplishment. Killing some crap for hours on end, or farming for 2 weeks for one @#%^ing item is not an accomplishment, it's god damned retarded.


Some people don't like raiding, myself included. Getting together 25 people and blitzing a dungeon is rarely a fun process untill you're at the boss. It's usually just a mess. This is my opinion. A game can't please everyone.

Quote:
Shortly after i started playing FFXI, i received perhaps the best in-game advice ever from someone i met: "Always remember the reward in this game is the journey, Not the destination


This, except that this is the case in all things. Not just FFXI.
#90 Nov 10 2009 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
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One way to keep this feel is to make the game so huge and have so many different avenues that you can take your time, play slow and still be "the best" at one or two specific things.

This is what I finally realized as FFXI got really big. Back in the day, to be the best you basically had to join an hnm linkshell and do sky. If you didn't do these things you would not have any of the best stuff, period. Now, its physically impossible to do everything in the game all the time. And there's so much good gear that is all equally as difficult to obtain, you can still have very unique rewarding stuff even if you simply focus on one thing at a time like Salvage, or Einjhar or MMM or whatever it may be. Fishing and Crafting are options too.

So I just hope the game is broad and grows well.
#91 Nov 12 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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i loved how FFXI made you feel like you were a part of something because of the general need for partying to advance...i mean, afterall isn't most of video gaming mostly a desire by any one person to be able to fullfill activities that normally wouldn't be achievable IRL? It's fun to be able to know that your not disposable and that your personal preferences are sought after to meet common goals...i'm not saying the game should strictly be dependant on other players or else you can't play..like said earlier, if you solo, you only get like half the exp you would normally get partying..that way it's possible to solo, but gives more incentive to be social and progress as a population to share experiences that make you feel like you're actually a part of something
#92 Nov 13 2009 at 5:56 AM Rating: Default
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yea i loved the fact that u could take ur time if u lvlin and if u did get left behind (the ppl ur patying with) theres another group coming that u could lvl with u were never rushed i ment most of my friends lvlin its not the same in FFXI now with the lvl sync no one takes time to learn there jobs anymore it really took away from the game now u got alot of high lvl noobs running around who never learned to play there jobs i enjoyed lvlin,meeting ppl,learning my job it made u feel so gud inside when u finally got the simple things like a sub job,advance job,ect...i hope its like that there as well so im hoping they leave the over rated lvl sync in ffxi i feel they would kill the game cuz like some one said earlier no one will really talk to anyone its not soloin but its as close as ffxi has come to it its like they put there exp system on a red bull i think they did it to compete with WOW but it kills the game for the ppl who love the game so PLZ SE NO LVL SYNC!!!!!!

Edited, Nov 13th 2009 7:37am by spunkymon
#93 Nov 13 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Default
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this my be a lil off subject but i feel in xiv they should have some kind of in game chat mode where at least a party of 18 can chat but it should be in game that way it works for all platforms i though i would bring it up be cuz we were talking about how taking ur time u could meet ppl i just feel as u lvl u could actaully talk to ppl man i swear if they added something like that xi would be a ghost town lol

Edited, Nov 13th 2009 7:21am by spunkymon
#94 Nov 13 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Punctuation please. Meet . and Enter. They're your friends.



They could keep the games pace slower and the difficulty down. It's not necessarily one or the other. There are a number of ways.

They can increase the amount of content, have a high skill cap, increase the number of xp required to skill up, higher death penalty, or plenty of other ways.

I'm rooting for lots of content with a super high skill cap/large number of xp required to skill up. By high skill cap I DO NOT mean that I want them to raise it every couple months. Start with a cap high enough to keep people busy.

Example:
Perfect World International's level cap at release was 150, I beleive. I stopped playing when I was 85. At that level, one level was taking me 1.5-2 weeks to make. It takes a couple years to get there with one character playing nearly every day. There is plenty to entertain you along the way though.
#95 Nov 13 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Default
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w00t!
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