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In Support of... a Death PenaltyFollow

#1 Jun 16 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
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I've been of two minds about this, but after some thought, I've concluded that I would be happier if FFXIV includes some form of death penalty.

I think the main benefit of FFXI's death penalty is that it provides a tangible element of risk. It discourages reckless play. I don't think advancement means as much in a game where you can "rez spam" your way through marginally winnable challenges.

In The Lord of the Rings online, there are special titles bestowed on characters who can make it to level 5, 10, 14, 17, and 20 without dying. At all. Let me tell you, if you're going for these titles, there's a big difference in the way you approach the game before you've been defeated, and after. You are more careful about how you do things. There's a great deal of nervous tension that just isn't there once you've "lost". FFXI's death penalty is a lot like that, too. Creeping through the lower halls of Castle Oztroja, sneaking past Yags and trying to light the torches to get to the magicite room... It just wouldn't have been as delightfully tense without the fear of discovery and defeat.

I don't expect everyone to share my opinion, and I'm not even necessarily saying that FFXIV should adopt FFXI's system as-is. But I would like there to be some kind of incentive to keep one's hide intact. <^_^>
#2 Jun 16 2009 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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That's a cool idea to add that, the titles I mean.

I prefer exp/ap (or w/e they call it) loss as long as it's in line w/ current XI standards and not launch XI standards. Fighting mobs will be a standard in the game and it's easy to fight mobs and get back exp/ap.
#3 Jun 16 2009 at 6:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed. There needs to be some sort of incentive not to die. If SE chooses to go with the sphere grid system, just don't go taking away abilities and stats. Whatever they call it (let's call it xp for now) should be lost. It improves my skills and keeps me from repeating stupid crap over and over.
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#4 Jun 16 2009 at 6:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Runes of Magic system: If you die, you don't lose exp but get a penalty in exp gained for a set amount depending on level (example: you die at lvl20, you get a 600 exp penalty and 66% of the exp you gain after dying goes towards paying that penalty while you still get 33% of the total exp per fight).

I did like it a lot when I played.
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#5 Jun 16 2009 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I support this 100%, this is one of the things that makes FFXI stand out to the "Just another MMO"

Deleveling not sure, but the penalty needs to be heavy enough to keep the tension high.


Edited, Jun 16th 2009 10:39am by Broophy
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#6 Jun 16 2009 at 6:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Im all for a similar death penalty like XI or worse, it gives so much more tension.
I really hated dying in XI like every1 else but thats what made me do everything possible to stay alive or keep the party alive cause they hate dying just as much.
They need a tough penalty to make death something that is not taken lightly... and actually make you feel scared when travelling through a beastman infested area.
I loved the feeling i had when i first went to jeuno through jugner forest, it was really an experience travelling through that scary forest hoping to get through safely.
Making a death penalty to light would take that all away.
#7 Jun 16 2009 at 6:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know of too many MMOs that don't have a death penalty of some sort. I think the difficulty I had with FFXI was that it was too easy to die and if you did die, quite frequently the penalty seemed excessive. To me, dying in any game is a bit of an irritant no matter what the penalty is. I don't like to fail. It's inevitable at times but there are just so, so many different ways to penalize people for failing without going overboard that I'm interested to see what SE comes up with.
#8 Jun 16 2009 at 6:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Some penalty sure, but not TOO harsh. Otherwise you're just discouraging people from trying new things or exploring. Fine, tension is nice, but if fear is keeping people stuck to specific routines, where's the fun in that?
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#9 Jun 16 2009 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Obviously there is some sort of penalty for dying but what sounds reasonable?

Exp loss, being forced to homepoint, weakness

Corpse run, durability loss (i think we will agree that allowing other players to loot your corpse is a bad idea)

Temp disability penalty
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#10 Jun 16 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree.
I wouldn't mind losing exp if I was able to get it back without the need of a party.

Hyanman wrote:
Runes of Magic system: If you die, you don't lose exp but get a penalty in exp gained for a set amount depending on level (example: you die at lvl20, you get a 600 exp penalty and 66% of the exp you gain after dying goes towards paying that penalty while you still get 33% of the total exp per fight).


I really like that concept as it would prevent you from de-leveling.
I bet there are more than enough tanks and sac pullers out there who would love that.
But the most important thing is that there is a penalty that does hurt to make you more careful.
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#11 Jun 16 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Runes of magic system is great but as long as there is no delevel at the end of it lol.
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#12 Jun 16 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed.
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#13 Jun 16 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree there needs to be some kind of harsh penalty. I did hate dying in XI, but at least its penalty was bad enough to make everyone try there best to live. In WoW if you die its annoying to say the least, all you do is have to run to your body and take a bit of armor damage. I don't care if I die in WoW...its not right! x3
#14 Jun 16 2009 at 8:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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I like the idea of titles but that could cause a rather large problem when you are with other people. It promotes cowardice. If you are the only one in a party that hasn't died you'll be the most likely to run away from a battle that looks like it's going bad...leaving your party members to die. It is also a little unbalanced since tanks and healers, in a good party, are usually the most likely to die. Whenever I play a tank I make sure everyone else is safe before caring for my own safety...which often leads me to death.

I personally don't mind FFXI's current death penalty...except remove deleveling (yes, I know they have said we wont have the traditional leveling system...doesn't mean some sort of deleveling isn't possible. I only use the word "level" for lack of any other word).
#15 Jun 16 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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I agree that death needs a penalty, but I would like to see a different approch to the game....

Instead of going to a dungeon an using sneak/invis and trying to avoid every mob possible for fear of death, something like going through the dungeon and fighting all the monsters that stand in your way. I always found it kinda sad having to sneak through a dungeon in a group of 75's just to go fight a boss... Sure if you die you will have to work back that EXP you lost, but it's not as fun. Makes getting to 75 a waste.

Edited, Jun 16th 2009 12:18pm by ToorimaHades
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#16 Jun 16 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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What's the penalty at level cap if they remove delevel but keep the rest?
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#17 Jun 16 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
What's the penalty at level cap if they remove delevel but keep the rest?


Good point...I didn't think of that. Well, in terms of FFXI it could be a lose towards your merits.
#18 Jun 16 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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The death penalty was the main reason why higher level WHMs had to go /anon when they were in any zone remotely close to the Dunes. I dare you to find a tele-taxi giving a tele-Holla who has never heard "Can you plz come to secret beach to raise my friend?" immediately upon entering La Thiene. As such, I'd like to see the FFXI system revamped somewhat.

Phoenix Downs have long been a part of Final Fantasy games. I would like to see them brought back, but in a slightly different way. Make Raise a low-tier spell, easily available - it would bring party members back to life, just as you'd expect. However, the only way that (some/most/all?) lost experience (or XIV equivalent) would be restored would be if the deceased had an appropriate Phoenix Down in his inventory.

I would make these items sold exclusively through NPC vendors as a way of constantly taking money out of the economy. There could be multiple levels of Phoenix Down - perhaps the cheapest ones return 50% of lost experience , with higher level items returning more of the lost exp.

I see this doing several things. First, it lessens the need for a strictly WHM-style party member. Next, it retains the exp penalty for death, while shifting the burden for recovering part of the lost exp away from another player who happens to have an R3-type spell directly onto the player who died. Third, it allows for the return of one of the most memorable consumables of the FF series. Finally, it serves for a gil-sink to fight inflation.

Just a thought, and one that I'm sure would never happen, but it's how I would like to see the death penalty addressed in FFXIV.

#19 Jun 16 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Default
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Well dying wouldn't mean a **** thing if there wasn't some sort of penalty. The problem is, SE likes to bombard you with penalties for just about everything.

Dying alone you lose exp, can De-Level, and you gain Weakness for 5 minutes if you happen to find yourself a raise.

EXP loss or Weakness would have been enough...

But I do agree that there should be some sort of penalty.
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#20 Jun 16 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Default
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Upon death, you need to be able to delevel. Delevelling is a good thing. Otherwise once you hit 75, or whatever the cap will be in the new game, death will be meaningless since you could never delevel to 74.
#21 Jun 16 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Deleveling is also a good thing because it progress harder for foolish or bad players. Debt systems still allow bad players to retain their current progress no matter how many times they die, and it fails at the level cap.

I remember playing EQ and getting sent back to my bind point naked, with experience loss, and having to find a way to recover my body without using gear. When you're deep in a dangerous dungeon with no one to summon your corpse for you in the event of a wipe, that's fear. When I came to FFXI, just losing exp seemed like a light penalty. If it's any lighter than what they already have now, they may as well not even have one.
#22 Jun 16 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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My vote is for a noticeable death penalty as well. I play WoW now but will most certainly switch to FF14 when it's out. Death in WoWs trivial, and I miss the thrill of FFXI when you did something dangerous and could be penalized for failing.

The idea of a penalty to future xp gains is good, but you also need an immediate effect as well, in my humble opinion.
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#23 Jun 16 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Delevling or exp loss at level cap seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me. I'd much prefer a financial penalty ala WoW then losing my gear and having to regain what I lost. I understand that grinding money is lame but there are any number of ways to get money where there are only a few ways to gain exp.
#24 Jun 16 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed (death penalty that is). I really did enjoy how tough FFXI was. I kinda find it a bit easy now seeing as how I've played since the NA launch.
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#25 Jun 16 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Runes of Magic system: If you die, you don't lose exp but get a penalty in exp gained for a set amount depending on level (example: you die at lvl20, you get a 600 exp penalty and 66% of the exp you gain after dying goes towards paying that penalty while you still get 33% of the total exp per fight).

I did like it a lot when I played.


The same sort of penalty exists (or at least, used to, it's been awhile) in City of Heroes. The only real benefit as opposed to just losing XP is that you won't level down because of it. It does lead to situations though where some players are perpetually in "XP debt" and level at a fraction of the rate that others do.
#26 Jun 16 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Runes of Magic system: If you die, you don't lose exp but get a penalty in exp gained for a set amount depending on level (example: you die at lvl20, you get a 600 exp penalty and 66% of the exp you gain after dying goes towards paying that penalty while you still get 33% of the total exp per fight).

I did like it a lot when I played.


The same sort of penalty exists (or at least, used to, it's been awhile) in City of Heroes. The only real benefit as opposed to just losing XP is that you won't level down because of it. It does lead to situations though where some players are perpetually in "XP debt" and level at a fraction of the rate that others do.


Yeah that's another reason why debt over exp loss is bad. With exp loss, it stings up front but it doesn't carry over into subsequent play sessions. With debt, one bad night can leave someone feeling like they don't even want to log on because the progess they can make will be extremely limited. In other words, would rather pull a bandaid off fast or slow? Fast is generally accepted to be the better method.

FFXI's death penalty is light guys. At higher levels with raise I barely even notice the loss and gain it back quickly. Even without a raise you respawn with your gear intact and can move on unhindered. I was used to EQ's system where you respawn with no gear and have to find a way to recover your body (risking additional deaths), including the delevels and exp loss.
#27 Jun 16 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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I think we can all agree that there needs to be some sort of death penalty, otherwise we're just playing Ratchet and Clank where the only thing that death means is you get to go back to the last checkpoint and collect more bolts. XP loss worked fine in XI, but depending on how progression works in XIV it may not be as viable an option. For example we could be getting a system where performing certain actions will 'level up' our proficiency in the skill sets associated with those actions, in which case we wouldn't have one pool of XP associated with our character but instead many each representing a different set of skills. XP loss in such a system would be complicated; Would it take XP from the last skill set used? Would it take some from all our skill sets? Would it just pick one at random?

Personally I'm favor a harsh penalty. Death isn't suppose to be something you brush off, it's death, it's suppose to represent the end of the road, something you go great lengths to avoid. Now that doesn't mean I'd want to see a penalty like Diablo II's Hardcore mode, it's still just a game, but give me some incentive to pop an expensive med or to communicate with my team beyond "throw your body at it" in the name of staying alive and being successful.

Seratera wrote:
In The Lord of the Rings online, there are special titles bestowed on characters who can make it to level 5, 10, 14, 17, and 20 without dying. At all. Let me tell you, if you're going for these titles, there's a big difference in the way you approach the game before you've been defeated, and after. You are more careful about how you do things. There's a great deal of nervous tension that just isn't there once you've "lost".


At first this sounded like a decent answer to me, but thinking about it more it seems too artificial. You'd end up with even people who could tolerate a harsh penalty @#%^-footing their way through things just because they haven't died yet and they want to see how long they can keep it up. It makes me think of my brother who plays XBOX360 games that he doesn't even have any interest in just because he wants the achievements.

And then what happens in this system after the first time you die? Does that tank that didn't want to 'voke' suddenly become kamikaze just because it doesn't matter anymore? The first time you die is suppose to teach you why you don't want to do it again, not just break the seal so that you can die as much as you want.

Hyanmen wrote:
Runes of Magic system: If you die, you don't lose exp but get a penalty in exp gained for a set amount depending on level (example: you die at lvl20, you get a 600 exp penalty and 66% of the exp you gain after dying goes towards paying that penalty while you still get 33% of the total exp per fight).


Sounds good on paper but as others have pointed out, what about people who are at level cap already? On the other hand, we could be getting a system that doesn't have such a hard-cap on XP, or at least not an easily achievable one. Plus with potentially being able to 'job change' this penalty could carry over to other jobs meaning you'd have to have all jobs at cap to avoid this penalty, and maybe someone like that deserves the break that this system would give them. So this has potential. Also, out curiosity, what happens if you die again while under the this penalty? Does it increase the length of it? Does it stack the percentage withheld?

Raymund wrote:
Some penalty sure, but not TOO harsh. Otherwise you're just discouraging people from trying new things or exploring. Fine, tension is nice, but if fear is keeping people stuck to specific routines, where's the fun in that?


Good thing Columbus and Magellan and Armstrong didn't feel that way about the death penalty. A death penalty in a game is there to prevent you from doing stupid things or using kamikaze tactics and should be harsh enough to do so. Beyond a full character reset if you let it prevent you from exploring and challenging yourself then you're really missing out.

ToorimaHades wrote:
Instead of going to a dungeon an using sneak/invis and trying to avoid every mob possible for fear of death, something like going through the dungeon and fighting all the monsters that stand in your way. I always found it kinda sad having to sneak through a dungeon in a group of 75's just to go fight a boss... Sure if you die you will have to work back that EXP you lost, but it's not as fun. Makes getting to 75 a waste.


This behavior isn't really about people fearing for their life, really I can't think of any zone in XI that a group of 75s would need to fear for their life from the common mobs. It's more due to wanting to get to where you're going as quickly as possible. I do agree though that the game would be more interesting if sneak and invisible never existed, it would make solo travel rather difficult and incredibly time consuming though.

SEforPrez wrote:
Phoenix Downs have long been a part of Final Fantasy games. I would like to see them brought back, but in a slightly different way. Make Raise a low-tier spell, easily available - it would bring party members back to life, just as you'd expect. However, the only way that (some/most/all?) lost experience (or XIV equivalent) would be restored would be if the deceased had an appropriate Phoenix Down in his inventory.


I'd love to see Pheonix downs in game, but would prefer them in their more traditional form as an item for non-WHMs to 'use' on downed players to Raise them. I also see no reason why they shouldn't be craftable and AHable, even exclusively. Trust me such an item would be extremely cheap to buy at a community set price.




Anyway, personally I'd like to see a combination of penalties that individually aren't too harsh in any one area but together make for a situation you'd want to avoid. Basically like XI's system of XP loss + weakness + potentially home pointing.

wow that post turned out long...

Edited, Jun 16th 2009 4:11pm by PopeyesOpenEye
#28 Jun 16 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sounds good on paper but as others have pointed out, what about people who are at level cap already? On the other hand, we could be getting a system that doesn't have such a hard-cap on XP, or at least not an easily achievable one. Plus with potentially being able to 'job change' this penalty could carry over to other jobs meaning you'd have to have all jobs at cap to avoid this penalty, and maybe someone like that deserves the break that this system would give them. So this has potential. Also, out curiosity, what happens if you die again while under the this penalty? Does it increase the length of it? Does it stack the percentage withheld?


I honestly don't know, didn't really look much into it. I know that if you died again, the penalty would go up and if you got to click your grave where you died it removed some of the penalty. Maybe it would apply to whatever merit system XIV might use? Then what if you had your merits capped... meh, it needs some tweaking for sure!
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#29 Jun 16 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Along the lines of the phoenix down talk...whatever happened to the whm spell Life? They should bring that back and work it into Raise. Maybe Life can be more powerful than raise or doesn't cause weakness...I dunno...something to bring it back.
#30 Jun 16 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Along the lines of the phoenix down talk...whatever happened to the whm spell Life? They should bring that back and work it into Raise. Maybe Life can be more powerful than raise or doesn't cause weakness...I dunno...something to bring it back.


Agreed. There are a number of spells they could bring back for WHM that would rock i.e. Life/Wall/Float...and Pheonix and Asura for SMN.
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#31 Jun 16 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Default
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PopeyesOpenEye wrote:


Sounds good on paper but as others have pointed out, what about people who are at level cap already? On the other hand, we could be getting a system that doesn't have such a hard-cap on XP, or at least not an easily achievable one. Plus with potentially being able to 'job change' this penalty could carry over to other jobs meaning you'd have to have all jobs at cap to avoid this penalty, and maybe someone like that deserves the break that this system would give them. So this has potential. Also, out curiosity, what happens if you die again while under the this penalty? Does it increase the length of it? Does it stack the percentage withheld?


This is really hard but you either have to have it like WoW, that is to pay to repair your damaged gear or you can have this system;

You will have a XP penalty each time you die but you won’t delevel. For the sake of argument say that you will lose 1000xp each time you die. Say that you are 75 and have 1000xp into the level. Now remember we have a system that doesn’t let you delevel. So you die once and loose 1000xp which will have you end up at 0 xp. Now here is the interesting part. If you die again you will get a so called "negative" xp pool of 1000xp, and if you die again that pool will dip again and again, of course of you kill mobs and so in-between you will gain back some of the xp depending on how much xp the mobs is giving. But say that you really want to try this cool encounter and you don’t want to be afraid of delevling, then you just try it as much as you want. This scenario is only true if you have no merit at all. So when you start to merit you need to "pay" this debt back so for example if you died 30 times and your back around 30,000 xp, that means you need to collect 30 000xp first to turn the negative xp into 0, meaning you have paid your debt and then after that you can start collecting xp for merit. In the case of that you have already collected merit points, the game will target your latest acquired merit point and each 10 000xp you will lose 1 merit point and thus the ability that you had bought with that point, meaning you need to go later and xp to get that point. This way you won’t cheat the system, but you don’t delevel either and run into the problem not being able to equip your level 75 items.
#32 Jun 16 2009 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Fearing death makes a game worth playing right. The nominal fee players pay upon dying in WoW isn't enough to stop sloppy play. I'd like to see something pretty brutal for dying, but not de-leveling. I'm all for losing XP until you hit cap (as long as you don't delevel) and then losing something else that's important when you're max.
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#33 Jun 16 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Death penalties, in my opinion, are more of an annoyance than anything, and generally don't add any real value to the game. It is true that no or small death penalties may encourage reckless play, but severe death penalties can equally discourage players from taking any risks at all.

I never played LOTRO, but the title idea seems like a great way of giving the hardcore players a challenge and an incentive to avoid dying while not punishing the more casual players.
#34 Jun 16 2009 at 9:01 PM Rating: Default
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While I am a fan of the Title System in LOTRO(Have a Hunter and Runekeeper with the lvl 20 one) I'm not such a big fan of exp loss upon death. Well, more specifically, I don't like the possibility of De-leveling upon death.

This was always my main gripe in FFXI. Playing as an EGLS main tank meant you die, often. What that usually meant was after any given weekend, I had to spend a good deal of free time during the middle of the week trying to make up the exp I lost so as not to De-level. And as most people here can attest to, it isn't the easiest thing to find merit parties as a Tank.

I think the REAL reason FFXI feels so much more intense isn't the fact that you will lose exp upon death, but it's the fact that you will most likely need to travel a great distance to get back to your current point. Of course exp parties are the exception to this, but generally in those situations a penalty for death is unwarranted, as it was most likely someone else who caused the death in the first place, I mean come on, when is the puller ever the first to die in a group? It's always the tank and support.

So long as they don't go re-spawning you too close to the point of death, I think the distance of travel serves as a better deterrent, especially in dungeons where you were lucky just to have gotten past the last group of enemies unseen before you met the group that killed you.
#35 Jun 16 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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Ahhh stop posting stuff with a green font. I have an incredibly hard time reading it on the alla forums. It makes me want to stab you in the forehead with a spork.
#36 Jun 16 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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I understand that it isn't an MMORPG, but I always thought that Titan Quest's KO system was pretty innovative. When you got KO'd a little tombstone would raise up out of the ground. Once you re-spawned you could go back to your "grave" and recover about half of the EXP penalty and then your tombstone would disappear.

The innovative aspect of this type of system (or, what I think would be a cool way of handling EXP loss due to KO) is having EXP loss on a scale similar to how FFXI handled it, but then allowing you to recover some of your EXP loss by engaging in a sort-of mini-quest.
#37 Jun 17 2009 at 12:13 AM Rating: Default
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Death penalty in FFXI was messed up because of raise2 and raise3.

A death at 75 with a raise3 led to a loss of ~300exp. Solo out in the middle of nowhere a restore to your homepoint cost 2400 exp.

Lets say you do get that raise 3, now you have a weakness for 5 minutes. Lets say you get a raise 2 or raise1, you still lost a ton of EXP and you're weakened for a long time.

That is what I don't agree with. Its a triple loss for a death.

FFXIV definitely has to have graveyards scattered around some zones so if you do make a small mistake when you're 1hr from your homepoint you wont lose time traveling time exping and time lost solong/farming/questing.

They should normalize exp loss. There should only be one level of raise and the exp loss should be reduced but not drastically like 95% for r3. That way if you get a raise, you incur a weakness for a short time, but if you don't, you lose more exp but don't incur a weakness. Basically, in FFXI terms, if one mob at 75 gave you 200exp, you should lose 200 per death at 75 and regain 100 of it back if you receive a raise.

WOW does have a some-what trivial death penalty, but its a much faster paced game. You fight a boss multiple times to kill it, hours mastering how to defeat it. The penalty had to be small or else no one would remain at max level for more than a day.


Personally, when doing end-game content, I'd rather wipe to it multiple times learning the strategy and spending time deciphering the encounter than walk in and defeat it in one shot because the game has such a harsh death penalty that the bosses cannot be too difficult or people wont be able to progress.

Edited, Jun 17th 2009 1:14am by gumpman
#38 Jun 17 2009 at 12:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Death penalty is a good idea.make the game more fun as long its not too severe or too light in penalty
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#39 Jun 17 2009 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
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I really didn't see a problem with the penalty in XI. I sometimes wished there was a food I could eat or something that would speed up the weakened time though. As a whm I hated having to watch my party wait for me to fully heal, although they were usually very nice about it.

#40 Jun 17 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Aldervir wrote:
Death penalties, in my opinion, are more of an annoyance than anything, and generally don't add any real value to the game. It is true that no or small death penalties may encourage reckless play, but severe death penalties can equally discourage players from taking any risks at all.

I never played LOTRO, but the title idea seems like a great way of giving the hardcore players a challenge and an incentive to avoid dying while not punishing the more casual players.


Some people enjoy the adrenaline pumping experience of making it through a dangerous area. If there's no death penalty, there's no danger. No penalty is a major contributor to stale gameplay.

Trust me, FFXI's death penalty is not severe. You spawn with all your gear and no lasting effects, or in the majority of cases get a raise and barely even notice the exp loss. There's no long tedious corpse recovery involved.

Even at 75, death doesn't matter to me in FFXI unless I die 3-4 times in a row. In a merit party if I die it literally takes me less than 10 minutes to make back the exp I lost. Any penalty lighter than what we have already in FFXI would just be a joke.

Edited, Jun 17th 2009 11:44am by Calispel
#41 Jun 17 2009 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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TheJollyjokers wrote:
Agreed. There needs to be some sort of incentive not to die. If SE chooses to go with the sphere grid system, just don't go taking away abilities and stats. Whatever they call it (let's call it xp for now) should be lost. It improves my skills and keeps me from repeating stupid crap over and over.


I agree with this.

However, I think in addition to a penalty system there could also be a system that rewards a player with performing skills and abilities properly with a bonus of some kind. Positive reinforcement is always a nice way to balance things out when there is a death penalty involved. One just takes away from a player with a single variable examined (Death), the other allows the player to learn from his mistakes and points him or her in a direction to improve his method of play.

Skillchains were a great idea in terms of concept, but there was not enough incentive for all the party members to make it a driving force of PT cooperation until later levels. If a party-level XP bonus was given for successful MB's for example, then it would encourage players to cooperate and plan out how to engage each battle with skillchains and even for players to look up and research mob weakness even if they are not a mage class. Everyone benefits, everyone learns not just what they want to and the end result are players with a wide range of knowledge and understanding on how everyone should play the game to its fullest.

Death is part of the game and I think that the nail-biting feeling you have when running through a zone that is way above your level range is a very good thing. It makes things exciting and it makes you appreciate the leveling process. I am still wondering exactly how they are going to recreate that without "levels".
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#42 Jun 17 2009 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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Calispel wrote:

Some people enjoy the adrenaline pumping experience of making it through a dangerous area. If there's no death penalty, there's no danger. No penalty is a major contributor to stale gameplay.


For some of us, simply dying is its own penalty. If you have to take time out to recover your corpse or run back from a home point, that right there is a penalty. If we were talking about a situation where you die and then it's just a matter of waiting through a 10 second countdown before you rez right where you died with full health/MP and no other penalties then ya, that would get pretty lame.

I tend to not kvetch over death penalties in general, but at the same time I'm careful about how much I advocate the additional kick in the teeth that's tacked on just in case it didn't bother you that it's now going to take you that much longer to do what it was you set out to do in the first place.

I've played a couple of other MMOs besides FFXI and the death penalties coupled with certain game mechanics demonstrated to me that it's possible to toss in a bit of a penalty for death and prevent zombie-zerging without going overboard.
#43 Jun 17 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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There should be rewards for knowing how to really play your class and the game (e.g. skill chaining makes it easier to XP chain, the reward is faster xp). Then, there should be a penalty worth avoiding for being overly reckless/stupid to the point where you don't get the job done.
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#44 Jun 17 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Calispel wrote:

Some people enjoy the adrenaline pumping experience of making it through a dangerous area. If there's no death penalty, there's no danger. No penalty is a major contributor to stale gameplay.


For some of us, simply dying is its own penalty. If you have to take time out to recover your corpse or run back from a home point, that right there is a penalty. If we were talking about a situation where you die and then it's just a matter of waiting through a 10 second countdown before you rez right where you died with full health/MP and no other penalties then ya, that would get pretty lame.

I tend to not kvetch over death penalties in general, but at the same time I'm careful about how much I advocate the additional kick in the teeth that's tacked on just in case it didn't bother you that it's now going to take you that much longer to do what it was you set out to do in the first place.

I've played a couple of other MMOs besides FFXI and the death penalties coupled with certain game mechanics demonstrated to me that it's possible to toss in a bit of a penalty for death and prevent zombie-zerging without going overboard.


I really don't think FFXI's death ability is overboard though. Having to run back from your homepoint is not a consistant penalty because it doesn't always take the same amount of time to return to where you were fighting. In fact most places people play in FFXI right now are mere minutes away if you're not foolish about where you set your homepoint.

Like I said before though, I played EQ1 for five years where you not only had to run back to your corpse, but you had to do it without gear - which often led to mutiple deaths plus exp and level loss. There were times when I'd lose 5-6 hours worth of exp plus an hour of corpse recovery after wiping deep in a dungeon. When I came to FFXI I felt the penalty was more spot on. If I die there I can just home point and log out. I don't have to worry about spending the next hour or more getting my stuff back. I guess people's opinions are going to be skewed based on their MMO backgrounds. In FFXI I feel the death penalty is already borderline negligible. Who knows how it will work in FFXIV without EXP though. If there isn't EXP, it doesn't make sense to take away skill ups upon death.
#45 Jun 17 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:


For some of us, simply dying is its own penalty. If you have to take time out to recover your corpse or run back from a home point, that right there is a penalty. If we were talking about a situation where you die and then it's just a matter of waiting through a 10 second countdown before you rez right where you died with full health/MP and no other penalties then ya, that would get pretty lame.


Simply dying is not a penalty at all.
I know it's just a matter of opinion, but I like having consequences when I die or do something stupid. It makes me run around the room screaming and cursing and makes me hopefully not make that same mistake again because there are consequences. Simply having to make a jog isn't a penalty, I throw up sneak and invis and I'm back to where I was.
How cool was finishing a party in yhoator jungle and somehow having to think up a way to get back to kazham if you weren't a mage. Sure, some people were smart and brought warp scrolls, but the majority didn't. Ninjas could 2-hour, but the rest?
You're suggesting giving everyone a ninja 2 hour ability. Death and HP with no penalty. I don't wanna see people dying everywhere around the world just so they can HP with no penalty. Death will simply become a form of travel. It shouldn't be that way.
Would Kirin be as fun as it is without death penalties? Would whitemage exist without death penalties? ShellraV and CureV hardly makes a job worth playing.
In the end I know I'm pro-exp loss and you're anti-exp loss.
Maybe FFXIV will implement armor deterioration like WoW has? I have no idea, that could be penalty enough for dying possibly. I just want to see something other than just running back to your corpse.
#46 Jun 17 2009 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree. FFXI was a huge timesink in so many ways, one of which was grinding levels. The only penalty of death should be a forced return to a homepoint or a long period of recovery. I'd MUCH rather recover over 10-15 minutes (perhaps less time depending on level of raise) than have to recover lost exp.
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#47 Jun 17 2009 at 3:30 PM Rating: Default
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Pro or Con, it's all about user base retention. I think most games have evolved past harsh DP systems. Runes of Magic has a DP system which hampers your future XP but with a few bucks, you can magically make all DP points vanish.
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#48 Jun 17 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Runes of Magic system: If you die, you don't lose exp but get a penalty in exp gained for a set amount depending on level (example: you die at lvl20, you get a 600 exp penalty and 66% of the exp you gain after dying goes towards paying that penalty while you still get 33% of the total exp per fight).

I did like it a lot when I played.


Sounds like EQ2 and I really liked their system. EQ2 also made it so that if you die in a group, the group shares the XP penalty. this took a bit of the burden off the tanks/pullers and gave more incentive to help them out if things went bad.

Some type of XP loss is needed. Leveling and achieving max level should be an accomplishment and not something that can be achieved by blindly throwing yourself at mobs until you win.

The durability loss on death is more of an economy control measure than a death penalty and is a good idea overall.

I never liked the concept of a temporary stat loss, all this serves to do it limit the players ability to continue playing until the loss of stats is returned.

I'm mixed on the concept of corpse runs. Back in EQ I had to run across several zones, sometimes taking over half an hour to get there. On top of that, I was alive and naked. Having to clear the mobs in the way of your corpse with no gear can be very difficult. On the other hand, in WoW I would simply spawn as a ghost at a nearby graveyard, run back to my corpse and continue on. On more then one occasion I stripped my gear, ran through a pack of mobs, died, ran back, rezzed and continued running. I repeated this process until I got to where I was going. In LoTRO, when I die I have the option to rezz or release and run back alive and with all my gear, but you could only rezz on the spot once every hour. I like the LoTRO system except the rezz part. If I choose to rezz I have to do it on the exact spot that I died. If I died right next to a spawn point I am rezzing into a fight with little to no Morale(health) or Power(mana). WoW at least gave me the option to move a little from my corpse to try and find a safe spot to med up and keep going.
#49 Jun 17 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm going to throw out armor deterioration out there. Maybe armor doesn't die with use, but rather with failure. Smiley: lol That would be ridiculous, I think... I don't know. It would help with the economy, reward you for not dying, and penalize your for dying. Sure, it would suck if something awesome got wasted by death... But. Oh I dunno. Nevermind.
#50 Jun 17 2009 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sounds like EQ2 and I really liked their system. EQ2 also made it so that if you die in a group, the group shares the XP penalty. this took a bit of the burden off the tanks/pullers and gave more incentive to help them out if things went bad.


And we all how EQ2 almost went down the drain because of it. They were forced to remove that harsh punishment.
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#51 Jun 17 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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EQ2 also made it so that if you die in a group, the group shares the XP penalty. this took a bit of the burden off the tanks/pullers and gave more incentive to help them out if things went bad.


This sounds like a neat idea... then again my linkshell had a rough Ultima the other day during which I lost about 5k XP. Not a big deal, I got it back while farming today, but I can't even imagine how much I would have lost if I'd taken an XP hit every time anyone had died during that run.

Quote:
I disagree. FFXI was a huge timesink in so many ways, one of which was grinding levels. The only penalty of death should be a forced return to a homepoint or a long period of recovery. I'd MUCH rather recover over 10-15 minutes (perhaps less time depending on level of raise) than have to recover lost exp.


but... but... but... in most cases it takes less than 10-15 minutes to make back the XP lost from death in XI... and that time can be made up when it's convenient for you rather than having to do it right upon being Raised D:

Sometimes I think people are against XP loss on death for the principle of it without actually thinking through what it entails.
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