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In Support of... a Death PenaltyFollow

#52 Jun 18 2009 at 3:19 AM Rating: Decent
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As with basically every other poster I think some form of penalty has to be in (and we can be sure there will be a penalty). In the MMORPGs I have played so far the death penalties are:

FFXI: Exp loss with possibility to delevel and 5 minutes weakness (if raised)
WoW: Need to walk as ghost from next spawn point back to corpse, plus armor wear
EQ2: Less exp gained for some time (to "pay back" an exp debt) and armor wear
LOTRO: 10 minutes weakness and armor wear

Armor wear implies loss of money for the repairs. Weakness implies loss of time, as does corpse-walking and also exp loss does this indirectly.

I am only really against the possibility of deleveling, as it can mean that suddenly you cannot equip certain gear any more. This I consider as the only "harsh" penalty in the games I listed.

I think it should be a balanced penalty. It should be enough to prevent people from not caring about dying, but it should not also cause people to act overcautiously or even selfishly trying to save their own life in a critical party situation.

Also it needs to be considered that as tank you certainly die more often than e.g. as support. The penalty should not be burdened by the tank alone (which exp loss does) but by the whole party (which weakness does as the whole party has to wait it out).
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#53 Jun 18 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It should be enough to prevent people from not caring about dying, but it should not also cause people to act overcautiously or even selfishly trying to save their own life in a critical party situation.


The penalty should preferably be solved directly. Easiest solution is that if you die, you are dead for 5 min, then you can raise yourself. That means each time you die, you are "thrown out" of the game for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes your penalty is over and you do not have to worry about it.

No money needs farming, no exp needs regaining, no backtracking. Heck, this method doesn't even have MP loss on raise spells, and yet it makes it even more dangerous if your tanks can't live for 5 minutes while key people are dead.
#54 Jun 18 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The penalty should preferably be solved directly. Easiest solution is that if you die, you are dead for 5 min, then you can raise yourself. That means each time you die, you are "thrown out" of the game for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes your penalty is over and you do not have to worry about it.

No money needs farming, no exp needs regaining, no backtracking. Heck, this method doesn't even have MP loss on raise spells, and yet it makes it even more dangerous if your tanks can't live for 5 minutes while key people are dead.


Except that your part will be waiting around for you for 5 mins. Forcing downtime isn't a great idea for an MMO in my mind.
#55 Jun 18 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Default
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i dont think many people are in favor of NO penalty...however an experience loss is just dumb


if the issue is that people shouldnt be allowed to revive and continue a fight and win a fight they shouldnt have been able to win, then just put a timer on how long until you can respawn or fight or something...that way by the time you respawn the monster in question is already healed



another option is to temporarily take away all offensive statistics...strength dexterity and agility go by by for a litle while, that way your uselss ina fight. but they should keep defensive ones like hp and vitality...it sucks dying, and then being so fragile that the wind blows a little to hard and you die, especially if there is EXP loss...killing defensive stats AND making you lose exp doesnt "add a bit of excitement" its just adding insult to injury...actually its adding injury to injury

another option is a bit more WoW from my indertsanding <ive only even played the 2 week trial...and i didnt die so i dont really know WoW's penalty> would be you die, then you become a spirit starting from a graveyard and have to walk back to your body




im happy with anything excepet experience and gil/equipment loss. losing somethign other than time is just not fair if the death wasnt your fault. assumign they have zones still, should i really get punished for entering a zone to find some jerk trained 20 goblins to the entrance causing instant death? should i be punsihed for some idiot in my party hitting an AoE attack/spell and bringing 1/2 the dungeon to kill us?

no...but that kidn of stuff will always happen, and we shouldnt lose "physical" things because things out of your control happen. but at the same time no punishment at all doesnt work either because sometimes it IS your fault and you need to face the consequnces. so make the consequences fair for people who did nothign wrong, but harsh enough for stupid people to be less stupid
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#56 Jun 18 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't mind the exp loss, but I still stand on the opinion that deleveling is the cruelest thing I've seen in an MMO.

I like the idea of us reraising ourselves after a small amount of time, weakness penalty is fine. One of the bigger issues in FFXI is that there isn't always a healer around, either your LS mates are too busy/don't care and strangers aren't always so kind.
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#57 Jun 18 2009 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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If they choose to take xp/skill I just hope they take out the weakened stage.. At low levels ..it was more worth it to just hp and run back
#58 Jun 20 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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I can tell you that if something like the OP described from LOTR was implemented in FFXI, it would involve people leveling in parties versus Even Matches until they got the titles, and then playing as normal. I don't think it's a good idea. While you don't want players to play too recklessly, you also don't want them to play too cautiously.

In fact, I think for much of the game people were terrified of dying in FFXI because it was such a tremendous hassle. And you may think, "Oh, it wasn't that bad," but let's break it down:

You're dead. Now you need a Raise. How will you get one?

1. Maybe you have a Reraise. This will have cost you some amount of money. Hopefully it didn't get dispelled somehow. It's not going to give you R3, so you're going to be out a little more xp.

2. Hopefully you have a raiser nearby. You may have to wait for them to get MP, which will take further time. And if your entire party wiped, it's going to take a few minutes for them to get all of the MP to raise you all.

3. If you don't have a near immediate raise available, you have to weigh whether or not to wait for a Raise or Home Point. Sometimes it's a complete gamble whether or not you'll be able to get a Raise, and you may end up waiting half an hour or more and still not get one.

So let's assume that you don't have to Home Point (pretty rare that you do later in the game), and you get Raised. You're now weakened and have to wait 5 minutes until it wears off. You're also out some amount of xp and maybe a little gil.

So 5 minutes pass, and at least you're not weakened, but you're still not fully recovered. You'll still need to wait a couple of minutes (assuming you've been resting the whole time) to fully recover your HP/MP.
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All told, you're looking at an immediate loss of usually about 10-15 very boring minutes while you wait for a raise and recover, then another 10-20 very boring minutes recouping the lost xp later in a grindtastic party. And maybe a bit of gil for RR and the food you lost (time is money, too).

And that assumes you only die ONCE, which we all know in challenging battles, you may die two or three times.
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So while it all sounds nice to make death extremely unappealing, the fact is that it makes people less adventurous in a game where you're supposed to be adventurous. It makes people less willing to take risks. It makes them even more critical of one another. It makes them frustrated when they should be having fun.

Now I'm not saying that battles shouldn't be very challenging, and that you should be able to win them by throwing weakened corpse after weakened corpse at them. But discouraging people from trying a fun and challenging battle on the basis that the consequence of losing will be very unfun and a test of patience is NOT good game design. Unless of course your concept of games is that they should be a painful, unpleasant experience.

There are several ways death can work well. In FFXI it was too punitive. It punished them immediately and then it punished them later as well. If there had been no xp loss, people still would have been frustrated by getting Raises and waiting to recover. They still wouldn't have wanted to die. And guess what? If they weren't good enough to win a battle, no number of attempts would have allowed them to.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#59 Jun 20 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Remeber that when you "die", it isn't really a death, more Knocked-out or Unconscious.

So I like the idea that if you are not raised within 5 mins, you will "wake up".

What would be good is while your unconscious, your HP etc regenerates. So when you wake, without being raised, you'll be fit and ready to go again.

But if your raised, you have a weakness, your abilities will not be available but only up to 5 mins after you fell.

So if in a party a whm raises you 2 mins after you fell, you only have 3 mins weakness.

But if there is an exp loss of some sort, it would be less if you are raised.


Edited, Jun 20th 2009 7:39pm by scotchio
#60 Jun 20 2009 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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I love the death penalty that is implemented in ffxi. Like someone said earlier the death penalty discourages foolish play, makes it feel like its a consequence to dieing, and adds to the excitement of the game. I hear that most people are cool with exp lost but do not want to delevel, to this I say this will take away from the whole purpose. If you could never delevel people would level then not care about dieing, or reach max level (or growth) then just die on purpose all the time. Also there could be many bad strats for defeating hnms, most people on ffxi will not use a strat that involves dieing over and over because of the penalty, but if there was no deleveling then you would see every hard mob dieing by the same old strat. Just keep dieing and healing and eventually the mob will die.

Now to saying its too cruel, at high level you could cap exp at 44k, so the exp lost is not that cruel. Everyone should know you go exploring on your own risk, most people that wanted to explore wasn't so scared of dieing that it stopd them. Now RR does not cost that much lol, even if you buy the hairpin, also you could get rr for free easy with a spell (if your a mage) or conquest points that everybody has. Now all that being said, for people that had a few jobs to make exploring easy, its easy to just go change jobs and explore then thats a less risk of dieing (mage or brd jobs to sleep, thf to flee, /nin to tank til zone), there were many things you could do to explore in a safe way.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 9:58pm by HocusP
#61 Jun 20 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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That's easy to prevent though. Time limits, making mobs unclaimable until they fully recover...

The more you like FFXI, the more likely you should just keep playing FFXI and forget about FFXIV.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#62 Jun 20 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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Lol i edited my other post to include more, but anywayz time limits on everything still doesn't stop from bad strats. It doesnt take 1 hour to kill fafnir etc (take like 10mins just 1 example of like rage timer), so you could say a shorter time period but I still dont see it working. Also throwing bodies at a mob doesn't mean total wipe you could still have people alive and well and tanking or trying to, so that no claim till full recover doesn't work either. Just cause you keep dieing and keep getting up to beat a mob does not mean every single person keep dieing and it go unclaimed.

LoL "The more you like ffxi, you should forget about ffxiv" is not a smart comment. Lets see ffxiv getting made by the same company, still a final fantasy name game, and have similiar races to ffxi, not to mention they said the biggest influence on ffxiv was ffxi.
#63 Jun 21 2009 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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You give up too easily! Fine, just make it so that you can't attack a mob while weakened, or how about after a mob kills you, you become terrified of it for a while and can't effectively fight it even after you fully recover. There are a dozen ways you can get around letting people kill a mob by throwing zombies at it. It's easy to make it so that they just can't.

I'm actually not a fan of letting parties rotate members in and out either. If it can't be done with a full party/alliance, you shouldn't be able to do it. This is also something that can easily be arranged. It's purely a technical matter.

Quote:
they said the biggest influence on ffxiv was ffxi.


My mom was the biggest influence on me and I'm nothing like her. Sometimes being a big influence on something just means that it tries very hard to not be like you. If your mom was a big influence on you because you really admired her, then you should probably keep playing FFXI, if you catch my drift :p

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 2:03am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#64 Jun 21 2009 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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baelnic wrote:
Quote:
The penalty should preferably be solved directly. Easiest solution is that if you die, you are dead for 5 min, then you can raise yourself. That means each time you die, you are "thrown out" of the game for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes your penalty is over and you do not have to worry about it.

No money needs farming, no exp needs regaining, no backtracking. Heck, this method doesn't even have MP loss on raise spells, and yet it makes it even more dangerous if your tanks can't live for 5 minutes while key people are dead.


Except that your part will be waiting around for you for 5 mins. Forcing downtime isn't a great idea for an MMO in my mind.


I honestly never had a problem with the downtime that came from deaths in ffxi. The experience loss was far more annoying. I really like his idea. It's just as dangerous without the annoying part.

Although we'd still have to figure out how they're going to handle the respawn. If you don't have anybody to raise you, do you have to homepoint or something similar? I know climbing a certain icy mountain that was home to a dragon ****** me off when I died 3 times in a row trying to climb it.
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#65 Jun 21 2009 at 2:07 AM Rating: Decent
One of the problems I had with FFXIs death penalty is that it was ultimately too harsh. One death for a person basically could set a player back 30 minutes to an hour depending on the party, level, and location. People don't have all the time in the world to party and play a game. I know a lot of games have xp penalties, but you can at least solo something in those games.

That being said, since FFXIV will probably be more casual and have more soloable content it's probably a moot point. That being said there has to be some sort of death penalty, but it just seemed much too harsh in FFXI. Not only did you lose xp and could level down, but if you were not in a party you would have to HP if you did not get a raise. Which could potentially set you back even more time. The most common example is probably a levels 20 trip to Juno.
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#66 Jun 21 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Lol attacking a mob while weakened is not even the issue. You can still help out a lot (healing people and other things) without attacking the mob. Secondly, 5 min weakened is not long at all, so keep dieing with no real consequences and they can just attack again every 5mins. Also, that terrifying idea doesn't really make sense and there would be many ways around it. Ways as in zonein in and out to remove the effect, ways as in just heal the people that can fight until the effect is gone, and many other ways. Come on now we all have seen these strats work already in ffxi, the point is with no real death consequence they will be used more and more and on pretty much everything. The reason why this strat is used only a little bit in ffxi is because of the consequences when you die.

Now, you knew what SE meant when they said it was influenced by ffxi, but yet you use a real life reference, and compare it to making an mmo. They was asked will the game take stuff from WoW, War, AoC, etc and they said all them titles was looked at but it was most influenced by ffxi. Now thinking logically, if a game is "mostly influenced by another game they made", then its safe to say somethings will be similar and upgraded. So for you to say if you liked ffxi, you are not goin to like ffxiv, doesn't really make sense in anyway you spin it.
#67 Jun 21 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:
they said the biggest influence on ffxiv was ffxi.


The biggest influence on Panic! at the Disco is The Beatles. Would you honestly compare the two? SE said that to basically make the point, "No, FFXIV is not a WoW clone we made to reconcile the relative unpopularity of FFXI."

That said: I thought the death penalty in FFXI was a little harsh for reasons already stated, and de-leveling made me absolutely furious. I like the idea of not being able to de-level once you hit cap, however, I recognize the problem that most of the dying that you do is done at level cap. It's still easy to regulate zombie kills by having a timer on how often you can reraise; for sake of argument let's say the timer is 15 or 20 minutes. That way you can't use chain-raising as a tactic, you can keep the exp loss for lower levels, and capped players will still eat a cool-down, but I always found it silly that when you wipe in say Dynamis it takes up to 30 minutes just to recover. That's absurd considering that's a sixth of your total time in there.
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#68 Jun 21 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Thats why you dont wipe in dynamis, sounds like a good consequence to wiping in dynamis to me. Most of the time it takes also is waiting for the mobs to move, most people have reraise and the ones that dont a couple rdms chainspell and raise. If the mobs move fairly fast you could be up and ready to go in 15min if your group is organized and plans for "incase of a wipe" situation.

Its not like you deleveled back all way down lol, most people were like 1 fight from leveling again. Its an easier problem to fix high level, so I dont understand you be ok with it low level then when max level you shouldn't lose exp anymore. I mean 20k/exp a hour in merit party, you could get enough to die like 12-14ish times with only receiving a raise1, in 1 hour and wouldn't delevel.

One more thing, SE said that to let you know thats its more like ffxi, then any other game. That doesn't mean its really similar to ffxi, just more like it then any other game (WoW, War, etc). I said that not to say that it will be like ffxi, but I said that because someone said if you like ffxi you should "forget about ffxiv", I just think that doesn't make sense.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 10:59pm by HocusP

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 11:03pm by HocusP
#69 Jun 21 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The biggest influence on Panic! at the Disco is The Beatles. Would you honestly compare the two? SE said that to basically make the point, "No, FFXIV is not a WoW clone we made to reconcile the relative unpopularity of FFXI."


I think it would be foolish to expect FFXIV as not being a successor of XI in most ways. Do you really think SE's new MMO would not be most influenced by the experience they gained from working on its predecessor?

And unpopular isn't really the word I'd use. That's like trying to compare the popularity of FF7 and Chrono Trigger.


As to death penalties, I don't think XI's penalty was especially harsh. If I had to change anything, it'd be Raise 3 significantly shortening the length of sickness.
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#70 Jun 21 2009 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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Back in my day the only death penalty in my MMO was a flat XP %, and you couldn't delevel. And you couldn't raise people ad infinity because the spell used up a blue gem; inventory space and money weren't exactly things you just had to throw away.

In any case, I detest deleveling and I detest the weakness period. But then, I'm used to a system where the penalty is lost XP and having to walk all the way back to the area you were in; that freaking re-travel thing sure as **** made me wary of dying. And resurrection was something that people couldn't exactly spam in good conscious.

But hey whatever they do, I'll play the game.
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#71 Jun 21 2009 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Death penalty...the horrible blue letters on your screen and the sad warbly sound as you get KO'd...even though it sucks to delevel, it's also hilarious too.

I think though, what should be addressed is rewarding the guys who kamikaze to save others' lives. Not sure how you would implement it, but for example, it seems unfair that a tank (who ordinarily is the first to KO) should suffer the same penalties as everyone else. In some ways, SE already recognised this in FFXI by giving some jobs an innate Reraise so they wouldn't lose as much EXP on KO.
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#72 Jun 21 2009 at 11:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, you took the words right out of my mouth ... The death penalty is just plain necessary. All games have some penalty for death. XI has the hardcore version of the penalty. WoW has the monetary model. A game like Aion has a little of both. The fact that if you were dumb or careless you could die and have an actual setback that you felt. I do not know about you, but I never have felt a penalty in WoW. Money is easy to make. The penalty should NEVER diminish in strength as you level up and play the game. Losing experience and possibly your level discourages careless and idiotic play and makes things feel important.

While we are at it... Please bring back Sneak, Invis, and make Deodorize worthwild.
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#73 Jun 22 2009 at 1:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Back in my day the only death penalty in my MMO was a flat XP %, and you couldn't delevel. And you couldn't raise people ad infinity because the spell used up a blue gem; inventory space and money weren't exactly things you just had to throw away.


Lol, but the flat XP % in Ragnarok Online was pretty big all things considered. I might to as far to say it was worse then in FFXI. I mean that 1% became quite a lot at higher levels. It would be pretty bad if you could delevel in RO.

But that aside

Just to point out there are some times where dying is unavoidable. You could possibly be learning a boss fight, or something similar. It's especially unfair to the tanks since they most likely die first. I personally think the penalty for dying in WoW is good for WoW since dying happens all the time in that game. The same I think the penalty in FFXI was good for the game since you really did not die too terribly much to my rememberence. (although I'm not sure I believed in level down).

The other side is what effects the penalty had on the community. FFXI is pretty well known for being a tight knit, but pretty uptight community when it comes to the actual game. Would this have changed if there was a different death penalty? I'm not one to say.

Still i agree some sort of death penalty is needed, but I think it should be a balance where people are not scared or discouraged in doing fun and harmless stuff (like making a web series of adventures in mob infested territories or something) but at the same time realizing that there is danger.
#74 Jun 22 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm going to be extremely surprised if XIV is even a spiritual sequel to XI. All I'm saying is that if you're expecting XIV to play anything especially like XI, don't give up on your XI account just yet.

XI had a great many weaknesses. SE knows this, and I'm 95% sure that when they speak of XI as an influence, they are referring to all the mistakes they learned from. ****, I would bet you cash.

And I'll say again-- people don't want to die. Even if there's NO penalty, people don't want to die. When it costs you time, you really don't want to die. I've played games where the penalty for death was infinitely worse than it is in XI. You could lose a week's worth of work by dying.

And while true enough, people didn't throw their corpses at mobs in a valiant effort to bring them down, they also took no risks and developed no sense of adventure. They got bored and quit-- quickly.

So I'll say again. People already don't want to die. Punishing them beyond that besides what is necessary to prevent abuse of game mechanics only serves to frustrate them. It's a very basic aspect of human nature and an integral element of game design. When players fail, you just let them try again from the beginning.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75 Jun 22 2009 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And while true enough, people didn't throw their corpses at mobs in a valiant effort to bring them down, they also took no risks and developed no sense of adventure. They got bored and quit-- quickly.


I'll note that some of my favorite MMO moments have been sacrificial deaths and purposefully running off to find bosses just so we could see them and die.

I mean, I lost 1%, but I sure thought it was worth it and fun as **** to run up to Baphomet and get one shotted.
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#76 Jun 22 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Did none of you guys play EQ1? I can't even believe people are calling the death penalty in FFXI severe or hardcore. Death in EQ1 frequently meant hours of down time just recovering your corpse, not counting the time lost recovering your exp. There weren't any reraise spells, at least not that I can recall during the five years or so I played. That's severe and hardcore, but it sure made some of the dunegeon crawls more exciting.

That said, however, I much prefer FFXI's death penalty. It stings enough that I really don't want to die, but does not impact me so much that I want to quit after it happens. Rarely have I died in FFXI where I couldn't recover the exp lost within ten minutes, and often times unless I was a tank or healer the party continued fighting while I waited for weakness to wear. By the time it had worn off I'd already recovered what I lost. Five minutes of weakness is hardly anything. Take a short break and go grab a soda or something. Seriously, I have more down time in parties from people going afk to use the bathroom than I do from death.

As for no level loss, without level loss the death penalty is not consistant. There's no risk in dying after you've just leveled, so people will always make sure to engage in risky fights when they are in that situation. Then at the max level you essentially have no death penalty at all. No, with exp loss, level loss is necessary.
#77 Jun 22 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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People love to die just for laughter of dieing. I can remember people spamming poison pots in city just to die in front of the mog house and have people examine them. Most people find it funny to die, as already stated, so a penalty is in need. The penalty in ffxi did not stop anybody from exploring (at least anybody I knew), as soon as new zones and content came out there was always a rush to explore. I remember like being one of the first to get sea, and just go exploring, and many people explored. There was a safe way to explore and dieing wasn't harsh at all, you just lose some exp that you can always get back quickly. SE does mean that they have learned from ffxi, but they mean on the things they added to make ffxi better, which will probally be already in the game at the beginning this time. I would think they are talking about the improvements they have made to ffxi, not the stuff that obviously wasn't too much of a big deal, because it was never really altered. If I remember correctly, they decreased the amount of exp you lost once, and that was good enough. If it was a big problem they would have fixed it in the 7 years the game has been out.

By the way I dont even play ffxi anymore, I quit about a year ago. I quit because most of my friends quit (4 had children, some got married, and others just got bored with the game because we killed everything). I got tired of the game because I killed almost everything and I played for the community and fun times with my friends. So, when my friends and ls mates quit, there wasn't enough to keep me around. That being said because every game has weaknesses and ffxi fixed pretty much everything they thought was a weakness (thats actually fixable), I guess death penalty wasn't one of them.

That being said, death penaltys and the aura of the game is what made the community so unique and great. Many people funnest memories are ones of them or their friends dieing, or someone deleveling vs a hnm fight and losing abilities. Lol some of my funnest moments is killing my friends while they are charmed just for the laughs, it was great and we all had fun and laughed for nights. It became a point to try your hardest to not get charmed, because you knew what was going to happen. To say that it stoped people from exploring is an huge overstatement, look at everytime a new area comes out and how many people is there doing just that, exploring.

One more thing or topic I have to comment on, why do everybody think a game is suppose to be fun 100% of the time. To those same people, is it fun in god of war or resident evil when you get stuck on a puzzle for days and cant advance? Is it fun when you die on halo or other games and have to start back from the beginning of the level? I love football, (and it is a game), but is it fun when you have to condition and practice? No that is work you have to do to be able to play the game effectively. I love basketball, but is it fun running suicides in practice to get in condition? No but thats work you have to do to play the game effectively. Nothing in the world is fun 100% of the time, even games, there is still work you had to put into the game.

Its just do you think the work is worth it, then play the game and enjoy it, if you don't think the work is worth it then dont play the game. I use "work" as the word because many people say that "grinding" to max level was work. I'm just saying I have had time where i enjoyed the grind, and times where maybe my party was bad and I didnt enjoy it, but I thought it was worth it, some people dont think its worth it, thats ok then just don't play the game, or turn the game off at that time. I use sports as an example because I wouldn't think many people would find two-a-days (2 extreme practices in one day, and your body be really sore),and ice baths as fun, but it is necessary and well worth it.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 12:18pm by HocusP

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 12:53pm by HocusP
#78 Jun 22 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
I'm going to be extremely surprised if XIV is even a spiritual sequel to XI. All I'm saying is that if you're expecting XIV to play anything especially like XI, don't give up on your XI account just yet.

XI had a great many weaknesses. SE knows this, and I'm 95% sure that when they speak of XI as an influence, they are referring to all the mistakes they learned from. ****, I would bet you cash.

And I'll say again-- people don't want to die. Even if there's NO penalty, people don't want to die. When it costs you time, you really don't want to die. I've played games where the penalty for death was infinitely worse than it is in XI. You could lose a week's worth of work by dying.

And while true enough, people didn't throw their corpses at mobs in a valiant effort to bring them down, they also took no risks and developed no sense of adventure. They got bored and quit-- quickly.

So I'll say again. People already don't want to die. Punishing them beyond that besides what is necessary to prevent abuse of game mechanics only serves to frustrate them. It's a very basic aspect of human nature and an integral element of game design. When players fail, you just let them try again from the beginning.


I'd say the opposite is true for just as many people. The higher the risk, the greater the sense of reward for success. Successfully completing a dungeon crawl in a game with death penalties is far more exciting than it ever could be in a game without. A game with no penalties and little risk becomes bland and fails to produce that rush of excitement. Plenty would get quickly get bored and quit in a game like that as well.

Death penalties serve more of a purpose than just to prevent the abuse of game mechanics, and I'd say what we have in FFXI is hardly enough to deter people from adventuring. I'm always an outpost warp, raise, or adjacent home point zone away from where I die. In fact, some people in FFXI already use death as a means of quickly teleporting home. It's already borderline trivial. It seems like its not even enough to prevent the abuse of some game mechanics here.
#79 Jun 22 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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HocusP wrote:
One more thing or topic I have to comment on, why do everybody think a game is suppose to be fun 100% of the time. To those same people, is it fun in god of war or resident evil when you get stuck on a puzzle for days and cant advance? Is it fun when you die on halo or other games and have to start back from the beginning of the level? I love football, (and it is a game), but is it fun when you have to condition and practice? No that is work you have to do to be able to play the game effectively. I love basketball, but is it fun running suicides in practice to get in condition? No but thats work you have to do to play the game effectively. Nothing in the world is fun 100% of the time, even games, there is still work you had to put into the game.


Who said hard work can't be fun? The only reasons I continue playing when I get stuck in a game is because it's still fun; even if I get frustrated it can still be fun to fling yourself at a challenge and get better. Even practice should be enjoyable, and usually is for people who love said game; for sports players there is real enjoyment derived from getting better, especially when you're doing so as a team.

If I'm going to do work, I've got an actual profession that demands hours and hours of practice time just to get up to snuff, and there's never any such thing as 'perfect'. There are also a million other productive things I could be doing. If you're not actually enjoying yourself, (or getting some alternative benefit it from it, like exercise in the case of sports) then you could easily be doing any number of things to actually make the world a better place instead of just...playing a game and not enjoying yourself.

I don't know about other people, but I don't have the free time to be "working" in a game. There are too many other kinds of work in my life that already need to get done if we're on that subject.

I mean, to each his or her own, but...
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The Other Castle
#80 Jun 22 2009 at 8:55 AM Rating: Default
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If the solo play is better this time around (which it should be), I don't mind the old FFXI EXP loss system. It was always funny to watch RMT die somewhere and all of a sudden "Cococococococo has dropped to Level 74". The implementation of a Death Penalty will help players learn how to be more cautious early in the game like stated in an above post. The option to move a dead body that is in your party was good, too..

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 6:34pm by Skeptic
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#81 Jun 22 2009 at 2:30 PM Rating: Default
There must be a penalty for death. And deleveling (whatever sense of the word) should be a part of it. It shouldn't be anything like a timed xp weakness either. As others have mentioned that feeling of honestly being spooked when you're walking through a zone because everything in there can kill you was adrenaline pumping - had there been no cost for getting caught what prevention is there from just blood porting to your HP - if you can just shrug it off anyway.

Square, give me the hardcore penalty that I loved in FFXI. It was something I enjoyed mentioning to my friends from other mmos.
#82 Jun 22 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
De-leveling to 74 was total BS, as was wasting hours getting an xp buffer, I have a life I can't waste time on that.
Loosing xp or its equivalent is fine just don't let me loose abilities I gained already or the ability to equip gear I was just using, that is retarded.
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#83 Jun 23 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Default
17 posts
Love this 100% hope it stays yah it sucked when you deleved, But hey you know what that means go get full buffer,
#84 Jun 23 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually it hit me...something obvious...

you know that they said FFXIV is not going to have levels, I don't see how you would delevel without levels. I'm sure there is a way around this. I mean there will have to be a way to calculate a characters level, but if they are using a brand new character system, expect some new penalty for dying.
#85 Jun 23 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Default
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Litie wrote:
Actually it hit me...something obvious...

you know that they said FFXIV is not going to have levels, I don't see how you would delevel without levels. I'm sure there is a way around this. I mean there will have to be a way to calculate a characters level, but if they are using a brand new character system, expect some new penalty for dying.


No you don’t, you can have durability on gear and repair cost, just like in WoW.
#86 Jun 23 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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I find it hilarious that it took over 80 posts in this thread for someone to bring up the fact there there are no experience points or levels in FFXIV. Seeing as that is one of the very few things we do know about the new game, it's beyond me why people who seen genuinely interested in discussing it forget that tidbit immediately.

You aren't gonna delevel in XIV, so arguing the pros/cons of an experience point penalty of any type is a waste of thought.

Every MMO I've experienced has a "Death Penalty". I'd bet anything XIV isn't gonna let you get right back up from where you were slain on your own with no ill effects whatsoever. Knowing that an xp penalty is out of the question, my mind seems to come back to the more current industry standards... corpse run/armor damage, but that is more due to my lack of imagination than any restriction upon the dev team.

You will die though, and it will hurt. And for those that don't think they've been hurt enough, feel free to die again until happy! :P
#87 Jun 23 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
In a way levels or not are not the issue, it is the severity of the death-penalty that is important. Having to spend hours getting back lost abilities is a bad system, the FFXI way is too severe at max level and arguably in the first 20 levels too.
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#88 Jun 23 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I find it hilarious that it took over 80 posts in this thread for someone to bring up the fact there there are no experience points or levels in FFXIV. Seeing as that is one of the very few things we do know about the new game, it's beyond me why people who seen genuinely interested in discussing it forget that tidbit immediately.

You aren't gonna delevel in XIV, so arguing the pros/cons of an experience point penalty of any type is a waste of thought.

Every MMO I've experienced has a "Death Penalty". I'd bet anything XIV isn't gonna let you get right back up from where you were slain on your own with no ill effects whatsoever. Knowing that an xp penalty is out of the question, my mind seems to come back to the more current industry standards... corpse run/armor damage, but that is more due to my lack of imagination than any restriction upon the dev team.

You will die though, and it will hurt. And for those that don't think they've been hurt enough, feel free to die again until happy! :P


You seem to forget the fact that there will still, most assuredly, be measurable advancement. So every time someone's said, "losing XP/deleveling sucks" it's still relevant, considering in FFXIV we'll probably be saying, "Losing some of the skill points I've accumulated/having a skill or stat go back down a rank". Pretty much every XP/Level statement is still going to be analogous to something in the next game.
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The Other Castle
#89 Jun 23 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You seem to forget the fact that there will still, most assuredly, be measurable advancement. So every time someone's said, "losing XP/deleveling sucks" it's still relevant, considering in FFXIV we'll probably be saying, "Losing some of the skill points I've accumulated/having a skill or stat go back down a rank". Pretty much every XP/Level statement is still going to be analogous to something in the next game.


Exactly.
#90 Jun 23 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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FireHedgehog wrote:
Also it needs to be considered that as tank you certainly die more often than e.g. as support. The penalty should not be burdened by the tank alone (which exp loss does) but by the whole party (which weakness does as the whole party has to wait it out).

As a tank, I approve this message.
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#91 Jun 23 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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FireHedgehog wrote:
Also it needs to be considered that as tank you certainly die more often than e.g. as support. The penalty should not be burdened by the tank alone (which exp loss does) but by the whole party (which weakness does as the whole party has to wait it out).


Don't know if it's been suggested yet, but what about maybe an optional "penalty sharing" system? I mean, if I were playing with a tank friend and we both got in over our heads and he or she was the one to suffer for it, I wouldn't mind taking a 250 "xp" loss instead of that person just losing 500 "xp" even though we both messed up. Of course, it would be entirely optional. Don't need to be signing blood pledges with people you don't trust.

Considering parties usually get a small bonus anyway, the debt would also be overcome a little faster.
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#92 Jun 23 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
One more thing or topic I have to comment on, why do everybody think a game is suppose to be fun 100% of the time.


I believe we've found an ideological bifurcation.

Games are supposed to be as much fun as possible. That's why we play them.

A challenge -can- be fun. Death is not a challenge in FFXI. It's a big NUISANCE.

Quote:
nui·sance
n.
1. One that is inconvenient, annoying, or vexatious; a bother: Having to stand in line was a nuisance. The disruptive child was a nuisance to the class.


Brought to you from the people who gave you such successes as, "Standing in Line: The Game!"

I'm glad that you can appreciate playing games that are intentionally designed with non-fun elements. By all means please keep playing them. Just don't wish for FFXIV to be another of those games.

And I might have mentioned this sooner, but I do design games professionally. Not video games, but the principles are mostly the same.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#93 Jun 23 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
And I might have mentioned this sooner, but I do design games professionally. Not video games, but the principles are mostly the same.

I hesitate to ask...

But what type of games? *raises one eyebrow*
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#94 Jun 23 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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*** games? Board games?

Nah, all kinds of games that involve actual physical activity. Some individual, but mostly small and large group games. A large part of my degree was actually in the study of games.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#95 Jun 23 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
*** games? Board games?

Nah, all kinds of games that involve actual physical activity. Some individual, but mostly small and large group games. A large part of my degree was actually in the study of games.

Games that involve *** with boards require actual physical activity D:

I AM DEEPLY SCARRED NOW.

EDIT: OH GOD THE SPLINTERS!

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 6:49pm by Karelyn
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#96 Jun 23 2009 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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We have the most fun games of Twister you've never played.

;o
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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