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UI design, will SE follow like the rest of the sheep?Follow

#52 Jun 19 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm a big fan of FFXI's current UI. Nearly everything is out of the way unless I need it, which keeps the focus on where I want it to be: the game world.

I am hoping for a refinement with lots of available customization for those who want it. If people want to add action bars or whatever, give them the opportunity, but keep the functionality and unobtrusiveness of the current UI, please.

That being said, there are some changes that I hope for:

Seperating out chat and battle text is a must, and something I have wanted in FFXI forever.

Make mice usable but NOT mandatory. I find I really like having both hands on the keyboard. I dislike using a mouse now, and I don't want to have to re-adapt for FFXIV.

Easier to edit macros are also needed, with a wider variety of things we can do. And give us "gear sets" to make things faster.. having one line on a macro say "Enfeebling gear" that changes in all enfeebling gear would be nice (assuming we have gear swaps in FFXIV)

Allow us to move where various things show up. Like, if I wanted my macro bar to pop open on the left side instead of the top.

DON'T have hidden menus that pop up and cover important things like spell effects! If I open my macro bar, I still need to see if I have shadows up!


In the end, don't expect too much of a difference. SE will need to make a UI that works with the PS3. A lot of the reasons for XI's UI "clunkiness" was to make it work on a standard (non-HD) television... and you can use a PS3 on a standard TV. Because of that, there is a good chance that the XIV UI will also be clunky... but hopefully they will make it so that we can customize based on our setup and our needs this time.
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#53 Jun 19 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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The FFXI UI was only clunky if you were trying to play with the mouse and keyboard. With a dual shock PS2 controller the game played extremely smoothly. FFXI was the only MMO that I've been able to play on the computer while leaning back in the chair and propping my feet up on the desk. I loved that. They still have hotbars (macro bars) but they only come up when needed and don't sit on your screen all the time. That's what I want to see again, a hotbar that pops up when you need it and goes away when you don't.

Anyone else play Vanguard in early beta when they literally had a start button and task bar? I know it was temporary and I know they were backed by Microsoft at the time, but when I first saw that UI it made me laugh. There's always something worse that both WoW and FFXI.
#54 Jun 19 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay here's one for you. Why use a character picture when nothing is fine? Why make it always circle? Why always place it at the top left in every game? Why use the same shaped hotkeys? Why not circles or triangles? Why not a square minimap? Why not a vertical exp bar? Why not place hot keys at the top? Why? Because game devs are scared to even dare show originality when they can steal something else that a big flashy number like...over 10Million players were seduced by. To me, this is a big turn off and Tells me the game will be just like the others Only thinking About how to entice the biggest number in the smallest amount of time. One thing i forgot to mention too, is quest givers. Similiar in every mmo too, just a guy a chat log designed deliberately to be spammed through because they show no pride in their games story. Obviously i'm not denying half of ffxis quest were pointless to the hardcore gamer, but they all had a meaning and made the story fanatics happy to read, and even treated to some awesome cs's at times. This is probably a better example of how something as simple as the ui can be meaningful too.
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#55 Jun 19 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Well, ditx, as a major in design, I can tell you it's because those shapes in particular are universally appealing in terms of composition and recognition, not because they're afraid of originality.

The character portrait is to easily identify the bars next to it as your own HP/Mana. (Is it necessary? Not really.) Hotkeys are square because the mind automatically associates them with keys on your keyboard.


Mind that I still enjoy XI's elegant and minimalist UI much more, but those aren't very good arguments, as they're simply good design choices, not a lack of originality per say. It's the clutter that really destroys WoW's UI.
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#56 Jun 19 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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Although I hate to play devils advocate on this one, I do like to back and prove things I say;

So squares=keyboard, why do they all have to be more or less the exact same height and width, FFXI uses nice big and shaded boxes.

As for shapes, there are many MMOs that use square maps, or as far as RPGs, borderless or faded ones too. Why does it HAVE to be circle with a dark outline?

Kingdom Hearts, an SE game, uses the portrait system and yet they STILL managed to pull it off without looking samey, it had a fresh appealing look on health and mana. Why? again a varitions of shapes sizes and something a little more appealing then lineslineslineslines.

This is probably a good time to point out as well, if this is a good MMO standard, why have other genres stolen it too? Take a look at Hellgate: London believe it or not, the game is a Shooter.


Anyway, I'm glad I got through to alot of you, I was aware that initial reaction would be, STFU. But this has made for a good debate
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#57 Jun 19 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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ditx wrote:
Why does it HAVE to be circle with a dark outline?


I have a pretty good idea why a minimap is circular. For starters your character is always directly center of said minimap. A character can only see so far in any given direction, lets say 100 ft. As you stand still your character sees all in front for 100 ft. you then spin that character 360 degrees on the spot and you now have radial view of everything within 100 ft. of sight.

Personally I'd like to see a square minimap regardless of any reason for two specific reasons. I like things to fit in places and circles don't fit in corners. And a square map would show 21.48% more than a circular map of the same diameter.
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#58 Jun 19 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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ditx wrote:
1. Why use a character picture when nothing is fine? Why make it always circle?
2. Why always place it at the top left in every game?
3. Why use the same shaped hotkeys? Why not circles or triangles?
4. Why not a square minimap?
5. Why not a vertical exp bar?
6. Why not place hot keys at the top?

1. I have no character picture.
2. My healthbars are located near the center bottom of the screen... and they are health spheres not bars.
3. My hotkeys are hexagon shaped in a, and I only have 12 out of my 52 abilities shown on screen (for long cooldowns) in a 3x4 beehive shape.
4. I have a square minimap.
5. Because a vertical EXP bar would be stupid... Actually a EXP bar in the UI is stupid to begin with.
6. Because that would be stupid and would obscure the game world in front of your character.

ditx wrote:
Because game devs are scared to even dare show originality when they can steal something else that a big flashy number like...over 10Million players were seduced by. To me, this is a big turn off and Tells me the game will be just like the others Only thinking About how to entice the biggest number in the smallest amount of time. One thing i forgot to mention too, is quest givers. Similiar in every mmo too, just a guy a chat log designed deliberately to be spammed through because they show no pride in their games story. Obviously i'm not denying half of ffxis quest were pointless to the hardcore gamer, but they all had a meaning and made the story fanatics happy to read, and even treated to some awesome cs's at times. This is probably a better example of how something as simple as the ui can be meaningful too.

Or, you know... These elements were in MMOs before WoW (And ****, in videogames before MMOs). You know, games like...

Everquest
Runescape
Ultima Online
Asheron's Call
Lineage
Dark Age of Camelot
Anarchy Online
Ultima Online 2
Phantasy Star Online
Ragnarok Online
Maple Story
Final Fantasy XI
Shadowbane
Eve Online
Lineage II
City of Heroes

Did you know all those games came out before World of Warcraft? Did you know that some of them, have an almost identical UI to the one World of Warcraft used?

Your ignorance of videogame history is showing. If you are going to claim that World of Warcraft's UI is being copied, it might be notable to point out that they copied a stock UI which was already being used by 80% of the MMOs before it.

I can not think of a single UI element in World of Warcraft, that was not already in very heavy usage in MMOs already, or was something Blizzard took DIRECTLY from addon developers for their game.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 7:36pm by Karelyn
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#59 Jun 19 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you'll find in my most recent poitn I'm referring to more recent games, case and point Lotro which showed up in all of the comparissons.

Didn't once directly reference everyone to be copying WoW, if I was, the title would be "UI design, will SE Copy WoW like the rest of the sheep?" wouldn't it.
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#60 Jun 19 2009 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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The major reason why FFXI's UI is so sparse is because it was designed to be played at 640x480 resolution and no higher than that. Then toss in the fact that it's primary input device is a PSX controller and you can see why FFXI is designed completely differently than PC games that commonly have resolutions double that and use a keyboard and mouse. This isn't some design conspiracy, it merely illustrates that each developer is developing software that can help the player use the product with the input tools and screens they have.

EDIT - Standard TV's here in the states might be 720x480 now that I think about it.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 6:02pm by baelnic
#61 Jun 19 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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baelnic wrote:
The major reason why FFXI's UI is so sparse is because it was designed to be played at 640x480 resolution and no higher than that... FFXI is designed completely differently than PC games that commonly have resolutions double that

Or a resolution 4-5 times that which absolutely breaks the UI -_-;

I don't care if FFXIV has an unconventional UI which is designed for the PS3. Just make the stupid thing scale properly on higher resolution computers.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 8:03pm by Karelyn
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#62 Jun 19 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah I think SE does a good job with aesthetics and lay-out but I'm not always convinced by the input parts of the UI.
#63 Jun 19 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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For this game do you think it's safe to assume that some people will be playing this game on a standard TV still? If SE assumes that then they need to design a UI that will be playable on a small resolution and also one that scales to much larger resolutions for HDTV's and larger PC resolutions. If that's the case, I'd imagine we will get a very similar UI to FFXI and hopefully better scalability for the PC port.

Of course they may skip the low resolution version with the assumption that everyone has already purchased a Sony HDTV to go with their Sony PS3 and design a UI with more HUD's on the screen.
#64 Jun 19 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm one of those few that actually liked FFXI clunky UI. So i won't be picky on SE's new design as long as they keep macro's. I had everything macro'd for my whm and brd, i love macros. Yeah . . . macros, please. ;)
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#65 Jun 19 2009 at 9:57 PM Rating: Default
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So well my point is, if SE stupidly followed this herd, although I'm sure it's not likely, would you still be interested in FF14, because I know I wont.


Sorry dude but if this is a good reason to quit a game.....Well its not. Really? Seriously? Is that what were doing?
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#66 Jun 20 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
The best idea is lots of customization. An easily customized client will allow people to tweak it for optimal keyboard/mouse use or optimal controller use as they need.

Also, don't most PS2 people play using a keyboard though? I remember nubs who did and you'd ask them something and 3 minutes later they'd come out with some poorly worded hurried response.


Also, WoW's interfact actually wouldn't be *that* horrible for controller. Sure you can't turn like you can with a mouse, but you can assign buttons to your bar keys, you can stick macros in your bar, it would work fine.

If I had to play WoW on 360, I'd set up L-trigger and R-trigger to be my main two actions, A, B, X, Y to be my other actions, and L and R top buttons to be my modifier keys, (like Alt+ and Ctrl+). That gives me 18 actions right there, and that should be enough for most classes to do decently well.

Or heck, use the L & R top buttons to scroll bars and you could have well over 60 actions.

(I've never actually played WoW on 360, but that seems like it'd work!)
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#67 Jun 20 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
You can disable the portraits if you don't want them there.
Ok.

AureliusSir wrote:
Not true...you can't always tell what a mob (or other player, for that matter) is about to cast just by the animation.

I think that not knowing what a mob will use would make fights more interesting. However.
You can also read what the mob will do in FFXI but often you can tell just by the mobs animation.

AureliusSir wrote:
You can access action bar buttons with whatever keys you bound them to while having the action bar hidden. It's absolutely no different form the macro bar in FFXI in that regard.
Ok. You're right with that.

Kharmageddon wrote:
Sorry, this quote baffles me... I think cars have come a long way, but no one has revolutionized the steering wheel. I think computers have gone a long way, but the mouse/keyboard has hardly changed. I don't see what a GUI has to do with content and creativity in the slightest. At all.
Steering wheels all do the same thing and so do UIs. But do all steering wheels look the same?
Maybe my comment wasn't formulated right.
I don't expect developers to create a completely new UI for every game but if something is copied 99% from another game that's sad.
If all UIs were made the same way nothing would ever improve. I think there are always things you can make better and not doing so means either you can't think of something better or you're affraid of creating something others might not like.
And if that's the case for the UI it could also be the case for the content.

But as I said, I've faith in SE to bring us something we'll like.
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#68 Jun 20 2009 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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If SE plans on having FFXIV be faster than 11, they will have to have a revamped UI.

Some things which are almost guaranteed to be seen in the 14 UI:

TWO chat logs, one for chat, and one for combat information.
A real time minimap or a scaled down map with real time updates.
Time remaining on buffs/debuffs.
A complete revamp of the part/alliance display.
A change to the macros/bars paging.

I really liked the FFXI macros page because they were hidden. I did not like that I had to hold ctrl or alt in order to activate them. In WOW i use over 40 keybinds. NONE of them are shown on screen except select few things I click such as food and some consumables. I am almost certain FFXIV is going to have SUBSTANTIALLY more abilities than 11 and on shorter cooldowns with much faster gameplay. Menus are inherently slow. Action bars are not neccesarily clicked or always visable, but expect FFXIV to have macros bound to keys directly. EX: instead of ctrl+1 you would have just 1. This will allow for faster inputs for faster gameplay.

I know people don't like portraits, and neither do I. Hopefully FFXIV uses grid or learns from it. Grid is one of those addons which as REVOLUTIONIZED mmorpg gaming. It displays information and updates in an easy to read/display setting. It is a MUST if SE plans on having challenging content. the challenge should not be wading through menus but paying attention and dpsing/healing.

I liked FF11's simplicity. When I played wow I translated that simplicty to my WOW interface. But to expect something that is menu driven is absurd. If you want fast paced combat you will need more hotkeys than ctrl/alt+(1-0).


#69 Jun 20 2009 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
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gumpman wrote:
I am almost certain FFXIV is going to have SUBSTANTIALLY more abilities than 11 and on shorter cooldowns with much faster gameplay.


Just like WoW, eh? Let's hope not. I'd rather have a handful of interesting unique abilities than an armful of abilities I'll spam 2 of.

The macro system is fine. It doesn't take more time to hit alt+1 than it does to hit 1.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 4:00am by Kirbster
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#70 Jun 20 2009 at 3:09 AM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
gumpman wrote:
I am almost certain FFXIV is going to have SUBSTANTIALLY more abilities than 11 and on shorter cooldowns with much faster gameplay.


Just like WoW, eh? Let's hope not. I'd rather have a handful of interesting unique abilities than an armful of abilities I'll spam 2 of.

The macro system is fine. It doesn't take more time to hit alt+1 than it does to hit 1.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 4:00am by Kirbster



Well, I guess but wow is not unique in giving out many abilities. Where is the fun in having 3 abilities two of which are 15 minutes?

The game will be speeding up compared to the snails pace of FFXI. They said that for certain.

Secondly, abilities is how classes are going to be unique from one another. Look at BLM and WHM. They have TONS of spells while melee like THF and DRG have select few.

People respond well to action and choosing what they do. There is a reason to why WOW and other mmorpgs have given their players more to do. It is more fun and it pays off big time. Auto-attacking is not fun. I don't see how anyone can think it is.

And pressing 1 versus alt+1 is MANY times faster. Practice it yourself if you don't believe me. If they plan to make the game more engaging, the speed difference from alt+1 and 1 will be noticeable.
#71 Jun 20 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Secondly, abilities is how classes are going to be unique from one another. Look at BLM and WHM. They have TONS of spells while melee like THF and DRG have select few.

People respond well to action and choosing what they do. There is a reason to why WOW and other mmorpgs have given their players more to do. It is more fun and it pays off big time. Auto-attacking is not fun. I don't see how anyone can think it is.


WoW has auto-attacking too, btw. The difference between Rogue and Thief was that than in one I was constantly spamming one ability in between strategic thinking/actions, while the other I was just constantly performing strategic thinking/actions.

Take it as you will, but as long as I'm not spamming sinister strike every couple of seconds I'll be happy. <.<;
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#72 Jun 20 2009 at 4:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
WoW has auto-attacking too, btw.

Yes, but it is a significantly smaller part of the game, to the point of the comparison being utterly ridiculous.
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
The difference between Rogue and Thief was that than in one I was constantly spamming one ability in between strategic thinking/actions, while the other I was just constantly performing strategic thinking/actions.

The problem here is that "strategic thinking," actually translates to "waiting on cooldowns."

In comparison to most recent MMORPGs FFXI melee combat is horrendously sluggish and boring. When I was exping in FFXI people would go to the bathroom, empty laundry, or even go cook food while simultaneously engaged in combat, and it had zero negative impact on our play.. There just wasn't enough for them to do.
#73 Jun 20 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem here is that "strategic thinking," actually translates to "waiting on cooldowns."


Yeah-no. As a thief I was waiting on cooldowns less than I was waiting for energy on rogue. Then again I am comparing merit parties and end game on thf to PvP and leveling/duoing on rogue. Maybe raiding was different.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 8:48am by Deadgye
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#74 Jun 20 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Yeah-no. As a thief I was waiting on cooldowns less than I was waiting for energy on rogue. Then again I am comparing merit parties and end game on thf to PvP and leveling/duoing on rogue. Maybe raiding was different.

I don't see how. Sinister Strike costs 40 energy when talented (and any combat rogue will have it talented), which is 4 seconds. That is ignoring any other action a rogue can do that uses less energy or even no energy. That is also ignoring talents like relentless trike that give you energy back or vitality that increases energy regeneration. That is also ignoring items like thistle tea. Frankly there are several ways to speed up energy regeneration, but we can ignore those for now because it won't even matter. You were waiting on thief cooldowns for less than 4 seconds?

It's been a while since I played FFXI, such correct me if I have anything wrong. SA and TA are both on 1 minute timers. Collabrotator is a new skill that didn't exist when I played, but I assume a normal thief uses that regularly as well. You're looking at optimally, at the very best, 20 second intervals for abilities. I'm not sure how merit parties are done, but I assume you generally save either sa, ta, or both for a WS right? That increases the interval even more.

And isn't thief the best example of melee usage in a party with the 1 minute sa and ta timers? Don't jobs like monk have it far worse?

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 8:31am by Allegory
#75 Jun 20 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Good
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And isn't thief the best example of melee usage in a party with the 1 minute sa and ta timers? Don't jobs like monk have it far worse?


I'm just using what I know. :p Mnk is 7 so I can't speak for it. But as for me; Sneak attack and Trick attack are both on a 1 minute cooldown, and I use them whenever they're ready. Weapon skill I use whenever I'm at 100% tp, I'll stack it with sa or ta if they happen to become ready right when I get tp. Collaborator I'll use about once every minute or two, hide I'll use about once every 5-7ish minutes, I'll use steal whenever the enemy puts up a buff, so usually once very 5-7 minutes, and I use feint every 2-3 minutes.

If you get very technical I'm sure I have more idle time on thief than on rogue, but I was just trying to convey that if battles where any more active I wouldn't be able to actually play the game.. my hands are full enough already.
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#76 Jun 20 2009 at 6:11 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
If you get very technical I'm sure I have more idle time on thief than on rogue, but I was just trying to convey that if battles where any more active I wouldn't be able to actually play the game.. my hands are full enough already.

Maybe that is full enough for you, but for me and most of the players I know that's a lot of free time. A WoW rogues waits a maximum of 4 seconds to use an ability, while a thief waits and absolute minimum of 20 seconds to use an ability, usually being longer than that. Other classes like Monk wait even longer.

The activity ratio of WoW to FFXI ranges from a minimum of 5:1 to perhaps a high end up 20:1.
#77 Jun 20 2009 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd like something in between. WoW is quite twitchy, you're hitting something almost every 1.5 seconds and if you're a little slow, you really hurt. But in FFXI, your cooldowns are so long.... My DRG has a whopping 3 jumps. Yay, I can jump every minute or so. Exciting. Ok, it wasn't quite as boring as I make it out to be. I liked the slow pace sometimes, kinda relazing. But especially when on my own farming or something like that, it go sooooo dull because most of the time you're just auto-attacking. Course, the fact that engaging the enemy took so long is another matter altogether.
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#78 Jun 20 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Default
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FFXIV is being designed on the PS3 don't expect a mouse based UI. Take a look at Last Remnant. It uses the same UI as the console versions on the P. It even recognizes an 360 controller and will configure itself accordingly.

I like FFXI's UI. About the only thing I would change is support for higher resolutions and split the chat box into a chat box and log box.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 1:45pm by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#79 Jun 20 2009 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
The problem in WoW is that "strategic thinking," actually translates to "waiting on cooldowns."

Not really.

Well, it depends on the class you play. Some classes were deliberately designed to be easier than others, for the point of appealing to people who like complex gameplay, and those who would like to do nothing but spam a single ability. I don't know what class you played in WoW Allegory, but a lot of classes did have strategic thinking.

As weird as it sounds, there are some people who enjoy the fact that their class doesn't require much effort to play *shrug*

Actually, that's why my spouse played a Monk in FFXI. Specifically because it wasn't a demanding job to play.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 12:42pm by Karelyn
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#80 Jun 20 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Melee classes were much more fun before the tp nerf.
#81 Jun 20 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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RidingBean wrote:
I think that not knowing what a mob will use would make fights more interesting. However.
You can also read what the mob will do in FFXI but often you can tell just by the mobs animation.


It would ban melees from mobs such as Cerb or Khim. It would also remove the "stun specific move" skill from the game. It would make things less interesting for both BLMs and melees and make the game more annoying.
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:


Also, WoW's interfact actually wouldn't be *that* horrible for controller. Sure you can't turn like you can with a mouse, but you can assign buttons to your bar keys, you can stick macros in your bar, it would work fine.

If I had to play WoW on 360, I'd set up L-trigger and R-trigger to be my main two actions, A, B, X, Y to be my other actions, and L and R top buttons to be my modifier keys, (like Alt+ and Ctrl+). That gives me 18 actions right there, and that should be enough for most classes to do decently well.

Or heck, use the L & R top buttons to scroll bars and you could have well over 60 actions.

(I've never actually played WoW on 360, but that seems like it'd work!)


It would work in the same way that steering a car with your feet would work.

Sure you could map all the functions to controller buttons but that doesn't mean it would be efficient. There is a reason why most console RPGs use menu trees and left/right movements. It's the same reason mouse based PC UI's all look so similar. It's what works more efficiently with a controller and dpad.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 2:43pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#82 Jun 20 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
I don't know what class you played in WoW Allegory, but a lot of classes did have strategic thinking.

Rogue was my highest, followed by warrior I dabbled in everything but paladin, but even all of that was before the first expansion.
Karelyn wrote:
As weird as it sounds, there are some people who enjoy the fact that their class doesn't require much effort to play *shrug*

You're right, there are people who enjoy a more relaxing playstyle in MMORPGs. There's no right or wrong when it comes to game design. If people are enjoying the game, then that is all that matters.

However, I personally enjoy a far more active type of MMORPG. I also believe the majority of players would like to see a faster, more intense, and more complex combat system than the one in FFXI. I advocate this type of combat system for FFXIV because I feel it is both what I want and what is in the best interest for SE as far as marketability. Gamers who want a slower and more relaxing MMORPG should have their game, but I don't believe that game should be FFXIV.
#83 Jun 20 2009 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
FFXIV is being designed on the PS3 don't expect a mouse based UI. Take a look at Last Remnant. It uses the same UI as the console versions on the P. It even recognizes an 360 controller and will configure itself accordingly.

I like FFXI's UI. About the only thing I would change is support for higher resolutions and split the chat box into a chat box and log box.


The difficulty in comparing the UI in a game like TLR and a current MMO is that in TLR, everything was turn based. You give your unions their orders and then watch what happens. Repeat. That doesn't really fit with a more real-time combat system.

I expect to a certain degree that FFXIV will not be easily playable with gamepad alone for PS3 or any other console it ends up on as the lifespan of the game progresses. I think the assumption will be made that people playing the game on a console will have a keyboard hooked up so they can communicate effectively, and I think it would be a shame for SE to overlook the opportunity to enhance the UI around keyboard use. One of the criticisms leveled at SE was that FFXI was constantly limited based on what the PS2 could do both from a graphics/diversity point of view and also from the point of view of the combat system. The PC version of FFXI was almost an afterthought; knowing before the game goes live that it will be released for PC at the same time as the console version will hopefully impact SE's design philosophies.
#84 Jun 20 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
FFXIV is being designed on the PS3 don't expect a mouse based UI. Take a look at Last Remnant. It uses the same UI as the console versions on the P. It even recognizes an 360 controller and will configure itself accordingly.

I like FFXI's UI. About the only thing I would change is support for higher resolutions and split the chat box into a chat box and log box.


The difficulty in comparing the UI in a game like TLR and a current MMO is that in TLR, everything was turn based. You give your unions their orders and then watch what happens. Repeat. That doesn't really fit with a more real-time combat system.

I expect to a certain degree that FFXIV will not be easily playable with gamepad alone for PS3 or any other console it ends up on as the lifespan of the game progresses. I think the assumption will be made that people playing the game on a console will have a keyboard hooked up so they can communicate effectively, and I think it would be a shame for SE to overlook the opportunity to enhance the UI around keyboard use. One of the criticisms leveled at SE was that FFXI was constantly limited based on what the PS2 could do both from a graphics/diversity point of view and also from the point of view of the combat system. The PC version of FFXI was almost an afterthought; knowing before the game goes live that it will be released for PC at the same time as the console version will hopefully impact SE's design philosophies.


Like it or not these days consoles get first consideration because the sales are higher.

The average person wants to sit back and relax on their couch, not hunch over a keyboard. And before you respond with "but I prefer the more complex control afforded by a keyboard". You are not the person SE is targeting. They want FFXIV to appeal to mainstream console gamers. Console gamers don't like controlling games from a keyboard and mouse.

Allegory wrote:
I advocate this type of combat system for FFXIV because I feel it is both what I want and what is in the best interest for SE as far as marketability. Gamers who want a slower and more relaxing MMORPG should have their game, but I don't believe that game should be FFXIV.


Try tanking Cerb or Khim and then tell me it's "slower and more relaxing"

If you increased that to WoW speed the game would become **** near impossible because you'd have too much to keep track of and too many opportunities to ***** up. FFXI is more strategic with more riding on specific actions than in WoW. WoW can be fast paced because the mobs can never really do anything to you that will completely ***** you over if you miss it the same way Gates of Hades or Fulmination will.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 5:05pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#85 Jun 20 2009 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Like it or not these days consoles get first consideration because the sales are higher.

Not for MMORPGs.
#86 Jun 20 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Like it or not these days consoles get first consideration because the sales are higher.


Allegory pretty much hit the nail on the head. PCs dominate the MMORPG market. Ideally, I'm hoping that SE can come up with something the suits both PC players who prefer keyboard and console/PC players who prefer the gamepad, but the reality is that not everyone who plays MMOs on a PC has/uses a gamepad, but anyone wanting to function well in an MMORPG is going to want a keyboard whether they're on console or a PC.

Quote:
The average person wants to sit back and relax on their couch, not hunch over a keyboard. And before you respond with "but I prefer the more complex control afforded by a keyboard". You are not the person SE is targeting. They want FFXIV to appeal to mainstream console gamers. Console gamers don't like controlling games from a keyboard and mouse.


I would have to say that would be an assumption on your part. I haven't read or heard any statements from SE saying that console gamers are their primary focus.
#87 Jun 20 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Like it or not these days consoles get first consideration because the sales are higher.

Not for MMORPGs.


Only because there has never been an MMO on consoles that has mass market appeal.

Blizzard has missed the boat on this one, and I expect that is what SE is targeting. Trying to go head to head with the WoW juggernaut would be foolish. The MMO market is littered with the corpses of games that tried this and failed.


Edited, Jun 20th 2009 5:09pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#88 Jun 20 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
However, I personally enjoy a far more active type of MMORPG. I also believe the majority of players would like to see a faster, more intense, and more complex combat system than the one in FFXI. I advocate this type of combat system for FFXIV because I feel it is both what I want and what is in the best interest for SE as far as marketability. Gamers who want a slower and more relaxing MMORPG should have their game, but I don't believe that game should be FFXIV.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Not in FFXI, not in WoW, why would they be mutually exclusive in FFXIV?

You have different classes. One of the ways which you can make classes different, is by making some classes easier to play than others. Both WoW and FFXI do this already.
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#89 Jun 20 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
I haven't read or heard any statements from SE saying that console gamers are their primary focus.

Considering that Square's primary audience is Japan, and we are an afterthought...

And FFXI is played almost exclusively on the PS2 in Japan...

Any assumption to the contrary is ignorance.
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#90 Jun 20 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Blizzard didn't miss the boat on consoles. At the time WoW was being developed there was no viable way to update and patch a console system as easily as a PC. Not to mention the consoles of the day were the PS2 and Xbox which would not have been able to run World of Warcraft in an acceptable way. Or that a stupidly large number of consoles weren't even online yet. All that being said, Blizzard is primarily a PC software designer and I'd imagine that they didn't give consoles beyond a cursory glance until much later down the development cycle.

For the first time, specifically this generation, consoles *might* be ready for a mass marketed MMO. Universal Wifi acceptance, App stores, online integration for console games (Madden, Halo, etc.) all paved the way for a console MMO success. Now they have developed distribution outlets and have hardware that run and accept the ever changing MMO.

I also agree that console titles can be huge. Vgcharts project that WoW has sold 9 million units of the original game (not including expansions, repacks, and whatever else; you'd think if you added in those numbers it would be closer to 17 million). That's good enough for #38 of all time. It's going to take one heck of a game for any software company to hit that mark even with a console MMO. I think XIV will be a huge success but I still think it will be highly optimistic for it to hit 9 million copies sold (original game), especially when FFVII which was the biggest success of the whole series only is listed at 10 million.

Numbers aren't everything and the numbers listed above aren't successes, they are record breaking sales numbers (perhaps anomalies). The timing is probably right for XIV but I'm not sure that arguing making an MMO for the console is a break-out market, larger than the PC market could hope for is correct.


Sorry if this is relatively incoherent, posting from vacation

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 3:27pm by baelnic
#91 Jun 20 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Blizzard has missed the boat on this one, and I expect that is what SE is targeting. Trying to go head to head with the WoW juggernaut would be foolish. The MMO market is littered with the corpses of games that tried this and failed.

Not really. There have been several MMORPGs following in the foot steps of WoW that have been successful. Lotro and Warhammer aren't smash hits, but they certainly aren't rotting corpses.

Console MMORPGs just don't work well, and there is not a huge market for them. It's easier to make a solid game that takes a small slice out of the huge pc MMORPG market than to try to invent a tiny console pie and how people will take to it.

I'm not saying SE couldn't be inventive and find a way to make a realistically marketable a primarily console-based MMORPG; I'm saying it's difficult, and, until we have more information, unlikely.
Karelyn wrote:
hey aren't mutually exclusive. Not in FFXI, not in WoW, why would they be mutually exclusive in FFXIV?

You have different classes. One of the ways which you can make classes different, is by making some classes easier to play than others. Both WoW and FFXI do this already.

To a degree yes. There is a range in both WoW and FFXI of more and less intensive classes, but the range within each game is much smaller than the range outside each game. A WoW class would be severely out of place in FFXI and vice versa.

You have a point, and it's not something I can really disagree with, but I'm still hesitant. I suppose I'm just not used to thinking of classes in terms of varying play styles among players.
#92 Jun 20 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I still remember the first console online add-on Xband(or something like that) that came out for the SNES and Genesis. Console systems have come a long way since that time. PS3, Wii, and Xbox all have really pushed the limits of consoles online. FFXI on the PS2 was a major accomplishment if only for it's multi platform appeal. If FFXI wasn't on PC or Xbox 360 at all, it would be dead already played only by a few hardcore JP users.
#93 Jun 20 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
I'm not saying SE couldn't be inventive and find a way to make a realistically marketable a primarily console-based MMORPG; I'm saying it's difficult, and, until we have more information, unlikely.

... I'm going to be blunt. Are you stupid?

What the **** do you think FFXI is?
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#94 Jun 20 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
I haven't read or heard any statements from SE saying that console gamers are their primary focus.

Considering that Square's primary audience is Japan, and we are an afterthought...

And FFXI is played almost exclusively on the PS2 in Japan...

Any assumption to the contrary is ignorance.


SE knows that they have an enormous potential market in North America and Europe. I kinda think that if Japan was the primary target market, FFXIV would have been announced at the TGS and not E3. That they chose a global (if not primarily NA/EU) forum for their first announcement suggests that they're thinking more globally from the outset than they did with FFXI.
#95 Jun 20 2009 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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WoW can be fast paced because the mobs can never really do anything to you that will completely ***** you over if you miss it the same way Gates of Hades or Fulmination will.

Raid Bosses have tons of ways to ***** you over. The have lots of ways to kill you instantly or almost instantly. You have to be on your toes.


Blizzard has missed the boat on this one

10 million is not missing the boat. And having it PC only allows for a lot more flexibility. FFXI was constantly limited by what the PS2 could do, what was out at the time of WoW. And PC can have addons, different control scheme, etc. It's fine.
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#96 Jun 20 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
Allegory wrote:
I'm not saying SE couldn't be inventive and find a way to make a realistically marketable a primarily console-based MMORPG; I'm saying it's difficult, and, until we have more information, unlikely.

... I'm going to be blunt. Are you stupid?

What the **** do you think FFXI is?


That was kind of inappropriate.

It's not 2002 anymore. People expect more from MMOs than what FFXI delivered because a lot of people have had a taste of what's possible. If FFXI were released today in the same form it was released in back when it first became available in North America, it would be an epic flop. FFXI was good for its time, but it doesn't exactly represent an overall standard for how a successful MMO should be made.
#97 Jun 20 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
It's not 2002 anymore. People expect more from MMOs than what FFXI delivered because a lot of people have had a taste of what's possible. If FFXI were released today in the same form it was released in back when it first became available in North America, it would be an epic flop. FFXI was good for its time, but it doesn't exactly represent an overall standard for how a successful MMO should be made.

Congratulations.

You just described virtually every videogame ever made.
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#98 Jun 20 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
What the **** do you think FFXI is?

Outdated. I'm not commenting that FFXI is a bad game, but if SE tried to release FFXI today as a new game it would flop.

You can pretend I'm stupid all you want, but when WoW-esque games like Lotro and Warhammer continue to do reasonably well and FFXI-esque games like Vanguard fail miserably, it's pretty clear what the trend is towards.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 5:54pm by Allegory
#99 Jun 20 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
It's not 2002 anymore. People expect more from MMOs than what FFXI delivered because a lot of people have had a taste of what's possible. If FFXI were released today in the same form it was released in back when it first became available in North America, it would be an epic flop. FFXI was good for its time, but it doesn't exactly represent an overall standard for how a successful MMO should be made.

Congratulations.

You just described virtually every videogame ever made.


Not sure what's going on for you that you've taken such an adversarial tone all of a sudden, but whatever it is I hope you work it out.
#100 Jun 23 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmmm intresting view's

I kinda of enjoyed the menu system it was tiny out of the way and i would like it to stay the same not like wow,aoc,aion,WH so on that silly point and click to do ur skill Macros baby is the way to go if it ends up like that to me it wont feel like a ffxi

Spell
Item
Balh blah
#101 Jun 24 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
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I personally HATE the UIs in other games and much prefer FFXI style.

Yes they use it in every FF game they've created, just about, but after playing WAR, AOC, LOTRO and a few Free to Play MMOs like Runes Of Magic and Ether Saga Online, I got so frustrated by having all these... window smack bang on the scenary I was trying to admire! For me it really breaks the 'spell' that I'm 'there'.

I loved the macros, I loved typing them out. I loved taking the time to make my own little system. I'd like them to incorporate that again, but with a bit more style maybe. But I hope to heaven, they do not have windows dotted around my screen.
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