Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

UI design, will SE follow like the rest of the sheep?Follow

#102 Jun 24 2009 at 4:25 AM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
Quote:

You can pretend I'm stupid all you want, but when WoW-esque games like Lotro and Warhammer continue to do reasonably well and FFXI-esque games like Vanguard fail miserably, it's pretty clear what the trend is towards.


Quote:
It's not 2002 anymore. People expect more from MMOs than what FFXI delivered because a lot of people have had a taste of what's possible. If FFXI were released today in the same form it was released in back when it first became available in North America, it would be an epic flop. FFXI was good for its time, but it doesn't exactly represent an overall standard for how a successful MMO should be made.


They do well because they're mainstream and casual, and that hooks a much larger market; not necessarily because they're better designed. Having played a multitude of MMOs to endgame, I wouldn't say that WoW, WAR, etc are especially well-designed as much as they succeed at being very, very accessible.

The Wii is doing wonderfully well, but does that mean the entire demographic is starting to lean towards casual games, or is it because it introduced a large potential of casual and nongamers to the market?

I'm not saying you're wrong exactly, but it would be silly to assume that the type of gamer that loves FFXI-type games is a dying breed.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#103 Jun 24 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Quote:
I'm not saying you're wrong exactly, but it would be silly to assume that the type of gamer that loves FFXI-type games is a dying breed.


I love FFXI-type games. The overall atmosphere of the game is great. However, I tried playing it again (started last week, uninstalled last night) and I couldn't do it. If FFXI was released again today, it'd be an epic flop -- not just because of its graphics, but because everything you do is soooo slow and time-wasting. Even getting around town on foot is unpleasantly slow. After playing WoW (which I started *after* I played FFXI), you can't go back to the strolling ways of FFXI.

Square has the advantage of learning from many mistakes and watching their MMO develop over time, and being able to try new things on their market. If there's to be a difference in amount of support the new MMOs will get from the players, it'll be because of 1) the difference in developer experience and 2) theme (sorry, some people will always choose Star Wars, just because its star wars, regardless of how sloppy the interface may be). I'm sure SE will have a pretty great interface though -- they're very good about it in almost every other game they've made.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#104 Jun 24 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
Quote:
The overall atmosphere of the game is great. However, I tried playing it again (started last week, uninstalled last night) and I couldn't do it. If FFXI was released again today, it'd be an epic flop -- not just because of its graphics, but because everything you do is soooo slow and time-wasting. Even getting around town on foot is unpleasantly slow.


You don't think the atmosphere of the game is a direct link between the slow nature of it? Some things may have been on the slow side, but (near) instant gratification is worse. If you could teleport easily right off the bat, or ride fast past everything, I guarantee you it wouldn't have the same atmosphere.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.



What I'm saying is that it would flop because people are so used to absolutely everything being easier and simple, not better-designed, and that in my eyes isn't really a good thing.


Edited, Jun 24th 2009 5:51am by Kirbster
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#105 Jun 24 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
279 posts
WoW has a macro system same as FFXI you know.


You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I hate that saying. Sure you can. What's the point of having the cake if you can't eat it? To stare at it longingly? To admire what you can't have?
____________________________
WoW - Quel'dorei <ON HOLD>

Main: Tancoo (80 Tauren Enhance Shaman)
Other: Saraah (63 BE Paladin)
Raymund (47 Troll Hunter)

FFXI - Carbuncle <RETIRED>
Raymund - 45 DRG, 42 PLD, 26 BLU, 30 RNG, 1 NIN <- I miss you Buster!
#106 Jun 24 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
In layman's terms, you can't have it both ways.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#107 Jun 24 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
372 posts
FFXi was slow. If you wanted to get anywhere you had better clear your calender for the next few month because it needed that devotion to truely reap the rewards it offered. But this kind of game-play is a thing of the past. Many people who enjoy MMOs have jobs, school and real life commitments and when your in that situation you can't enjoy a game like FFXI because, you literally get no-where.

****, it takes you a good fifteen minutes to run from Sandy to the Dunes and thats before you've even pulled your first Crab. To get a level you could be in a party for at least three hours (level 70+).

At the end of a really good session it did however feel like I had accomplished something, yet it was just a level. What made it feel better, was the fact that the people I partied with, helped me and I had helped them. The sense of team-work and comradre was rewarding in itself in some cases.

Long. Hard Work. Other Players.

The three things often spring to my mind when I think of FFXI and I still love it!
#108 Jun 24 2009 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
777 posts
Raymund wrote:
You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I hate that saying. Sure you can. What's the point of having the cake if you can't eat it? To stare at it longingly? To admire what you can't have?

You misunderstand the idium. Here is what it is saying.

You have a cake. Then you eat it. Now the cake is gone.

The basic idea of the idium is "Once you consume something, it's gone forever. Once it's gone forever, you can no longer benefit from it anymore." The idium is commonly used incorrectly, and is somewhat confusing to to the double-meaning of the word "have." But now that I explained it, does the idium make more sense?

A more modern version could be something like "You cannot have your oil, and burn it as gasoline too" or "You can't have your money, and spend it too."

*shrug*
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#109 Jun 24 2009 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Regardless of eating cake, I believe my point stands. The general atmosphere in FFXI wasn't tied simply to the fact that it took forever to get anything done. The game was hard, not because everything was a time sink, but because the game provided options for deep interactions between players (skill chains) and tough encounters. It's ok for THESE things to take time to learn and master. However, the time to get to places was too long and too drawn out.

Also, I'm tired of people using extremes as counter examples. Just because I say things like "it was too slow" doesn't mean you prove your point by saying "yeah well, if it was instant it would be even worse!" Ok, so don't make it instant then. How about a normal amount of time to get places? What if zones were actually packed with content, and not just enemies and land-scapes (except where appropriate)? Why not have tons of things to do, places to go, people to meet, things to observe, natural occurences, etc.? WoW made an attempt at fixing this by providing more 'scenic stops along the way' -- wolves chasing rabbits, NPCs working, packs of deer, a few hidden quest-givers here and there, treasure chests, etc. Adding these things and making the distance generally smaller (in terms of FFXIs distances, not WoWs) would go a long way.

People need a pace that doesn't make them feel like they're working. Period.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#110 Jun 24 2009 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
***
3,416 posts
While I agree, I think that the long travel and waiting made the players quite patient, which in turn helped the community grow. Group isn't full in <10mins? In other games people would leave, but not in FFXI!

Of course I wouldn't support keeping it the same as it is, some things just have to be sacrificed. But I still think that it shaped up the community and atmosphere to be what it is now.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#111 Jun 24 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
316 posts
Kirbster wrote:
You don't think the atmosphere of the game is a direct link between the slow nature of it? Some things may have been on the slow side, but (near) instant gratification is worse. If you could teleport easily right off the bat, or ride fast past everything, I guarantee you it wouldn't have the same atmosphere.

What I'm saying is that it would flop because people are so used to absolutely everything being easier and simple, not better-designed, and that in my eyes isn't really a good thing.


The first time I trekked from Sandy through La Thiene to party in the Dunes was amazing. The fifth time, the novelty had worn off, but it was still pretty cool. By the 10th-plus time, it was a mind-sucking timesink that I despised.

"On the slow side" doesn't even begin to describe it. It's a solid 15 minutes of travel time from the gates of Sandy to the safety of Selbina, and worse, the trip required your attention the whole time, lest you aggro something capable of easily killing you and forcing you to start the journey over at the beginning. That's not "atmosphere", and S-E finally realized it, lowering the level restrictions on outpost warps.

From reading your posts, I can tell that you want the new game to be FFXI with better graphics and some minor tweaks, but don't confuse the removal of unnecessary timesinks with poor design.
#112 Jun 24 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
The activity ratio of WoW to FFXI ranges from a minimum of 5:1 to perhaps a high end up 20:1.


I'd put the minimum at 1:1 actually. I don't have to wait an average of 20 seconds inbetween abilities at minimum and when you include other battle variables it gets lower. All my abilities, switching targets, recasting shadows, performing ranged attacks, etc. If I do something as simple as eating a slice of pizza while in a merit party I will, for the moment that I'm actually eatting it, have a noticeable drop in performance. But at least I have the ability to eat that slice of pizza while still continuing to function. If I wanted to eat a slice of pizza on rogue I had to take bites inbetween fights. Not really enjoyable.

Quote:
If FFXI were released today in the same form it was released in back when it first became available in North America, it would be an epic flop.

Quote:
Outdated. I'm not commenting that FFXI is a bad game, but if SE tried to release FFXI today as a new game it would flop.

No ****.
Quote:
Not sure what's going on for you that you've taken such an adversarial tone all of a sudden, but whatever it is I hope you work it out.

Did you not understand where he was coming from? ANY GAME will do the same. Halo. Final fantasy 7. Chrono Trigger. FFXI, MGS1. If any of those games were somehow held back from being released for 7 years and didn't get updates done they wouldn't even sell.

Quote:
FFXi was slow. If you wanted to get anywhere you had better clear your calender for the next few month because it needed that devotion to truely reap the rewards it offered. But this kind of game-play is a thing of the past. Many people who enjoy MMOs have jobs, school and real life commitments and when your in that situation you can't enjoy a game like FFXI because, you literally get no-where.

I must be an exception then, right? Those many, many months off that I took not all at the same time must have seriously hurt my ability to get items.. like skadi's cuirie and hecatomb subligar. >.>; I agree with the rest of your post though, lol

Quote:
What if zones were actually packed with content, and not just enemies and land-scapes (except where appropriate)? Why not have tons of things to do, places to go, people to meet, things to observe, natural occurences, etc.? WoW made an attempt at fixing this by providing more 'scenic stops along the way' -- wolves chasing rabbits, NPCs working, packs of deer, a few hidden quest-givers here and there, treasure chests, etc. Adding these things and making the distance generally smaller (in terms of FFXIs distances, not WoWs) would go a long way.
One thing I loved about ffxi was all the nice easter eggs. The discovery of the hidden rooms in multiple zones along with the strange apparatuses before they were activates. The story behind the giant 'dragon spine' and the other white thingies and the crags. The stuff behind all the enemies like weapons and tonberries. etc.

Wait.. what does anything I've replied to have to do wit- I think we've strayed a weee bit off topic guys.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#113 Jun 24 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
*
192 posts
Kharmageddon wrote:

People need a pace that doesn't make them feel like they're working. Period.


As much as I feel the whole argument that's going on here, I still think the thing is that FFXI's atmosphere came from the leisurely pace of it. It wasn't a race, it was something that just took time, so you might as well have stopped to smell the roses.

I just think, instead of speeding things up, they can very well make the game better for players who otherwise just saw the game as slow leveling and nothing else by actually putting emphasis on the atmosphere of the game. Say, instead of speeding up leveling, give players more things to do during each level so they never feel like they're having to chug upwards just to get more interesting content. Instead of, say, diminishing the effects of travel, give players more incentive to enjoy the journey; there could be achievements or awards for finding things, for doing little things like witnessing dawns and dusks in certain places, or just many more smaller techniques.

I think one of FFXI's errors wasn't that it was too slow, but that it made a great world and simply trusted that people would figure out how to enjoy it on their own. Which didn't work, at least for many, many westerners who played and quickly left; you've got to make sure you let as many players know as possible that your world is super teh awesome.

The One and Only Deadgye wrote:

Did you not understand where he was coming from? ANY GAME will do the same. Halo. Final fantasy 7. Chrono Trigger. FFXI, MGS1. If any of those games were somehow held back from being released for 7 years and didn't get updates done they wouldn't even sell.


Agree to disagree, lol?

The only thing that would be considered outdated about any of those games nowadays would be the graphics. (Except maybe MGS1, putting up with those controls nowadays can be a terror.) Otherwise they're all pretty timeless and well designed to hold up.

Whereas FFXI has a lot of features that wouldn't fly or even be considered "an enjoyable throwback" if it were released in current form.
____________________________
The Other Castle
#114 Jun 24 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
Sage
*
121 posts
Quote:
The general atmosphere in FFXI wasn't tied simply to the fact that it took forever to get anything done. The game was hard, not because everything was a time sink, but because the game provided options for deep interactions between players (skill chains) and tough encounters. It's ok for THESE things to take time to learn and master. However, the time to get to places was too long and too drawn out.


But you have to think, was partying really difficult? if skill chaining was the most difficult thing in the entire game, then that's not saying much for difficulty. FFXI was one of those games where it was like "stand 3 steps to the left, then after the superubermob uses his megadeathultraattack run around him then hit him three times, and then run behind the paladin as he protects you... type deals."

But I'm not disagreeing with you.
Quote:

FFXi was slow. If you wanted to get anywhere you had better clear your calender for the next few month because it needed that devotion to truely reap the rewards it offered. But this kind of game-play is a thing of the past. Many people who enjoy MMOs have jobs, school and real life commitments and when your in that situation you can't enjoy a game like FFXI because, you literally get no-where.


I agree, FFXI was slow all around, but a few months might be a little out there. However, it's like this with all games when you get to endgame. When i raided in WoW (BC) I'd have to devote 4-5 hours a day, 5 days a week to raid, and I was only in a semi-hardcore guild. Needless to say I eventually burned out.

However, that being said, WoW made you feel like you were progressing, FFXI would be fine if it was slow, but you still felt like you were getting somewhere.

Quote:

People need a pace that doesn't make them feel like they're working. Period.


Smartest thing said in the topic.
#115 Jun 24 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
Whereas FFXI has a lot of features that wouldn't fly or even be considered "an enjoyable throwback" if it were released in current form.


Meh, guess we'll just agree to disagree then. WoW has just as many of those for me as ffxi does. ~.~
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#116 Jun 24 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Quote:
But you have to think, was partying really difficult? if skill chaining was the most difficult thing in the entire game, then that's not saying much for difficulty. FFXI was one of those games where it was like "stand 3 steps to the left, then after the superubermob uses his megadeathultraattack run around him then hit him three times, and then run behind the paladin as he protects you... type deals."


I do have to admit, I just turned 13 when FFXI came out, so timing that kind of stuff and relying on other players for success on that kind of level was tough for me. XP chains were also super rewarding because it cut down on the difficulties of leveling. I don't think you could ever make an MMO 'truly difficult', as much as 'deeply involving' in terms of combat. As far as deeply involving is concerned, I think FFXI made a few key steps toward making players interact in certain ways that other MMOs simply don't do.

So in summary, you're right. Not difficult, but involved.e

edit - just realized this thread was about UI design. Uh... so how about that <menu driven feature>?

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 3:33pm by Kharmageddon
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#117 Jun 24 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
43 posts
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
The activity ratio of WoW to FFXI ranges from a minimum of 5:1 to perhaps a high end up 20:1.


I'd put the minimum at 1:1 actually. I don't have to wait an average of 20 seconds inbetween abilities at minimum and when you include other battle variables it gets lower. All my abilities, switching targets, recasting shadows, performing ranged attacks, etc. If I do something as simple as eating a slice of pizza while in a merit party I will, for the moment that I'm actually eatting it, have a noticeable drop in performance. But at least I have the ability to eat that slice of pizza while still continuing to function. If I wanted to eat a slice of pizza on rogue I had to take bites inbetween fights. Not really enjoyable.



I am slightly confused. You don't sit at a table and eat? You want a game to be playable for eating? 9/10 When I am eating, I'm sitting at a table, not in front of the computer or a console.

Back on topic:

As I've said before FFXI compared to more modern games has VERY few abilities compared to games like wow. Just because something is fun does not make it casual. People play games to have fun and enjoy themselves. A clunky UI that is difficult to learn does not make the game hardcore. It's stupid to think like this. I prefer an easy to larn/pickup Ui that can be customizable and complex as you want. Why? So that people don't get frustrated and quit. You're playing a MMO you need people to play with.
#118 Jun 24 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
Repressed Memories
******
20,814 posts
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I'd put the minimum at 1:1 actually.

Really? Having played both games you really think FFXI requires, on average, the same number of inputs per second as WoW? If so then I think we're done, because this is demonstrably false.
Quote:
=The One and Only DeadgyeDid you not understand where he was coming from? ANY GAME will do the same. Halo. Final fantasy 7. Chrono Trigger. FFXI, MGS1. If any of those games were somehow held back from being released for 7 years and didn't get updates done they wouldn't even sell.

Well some of the games you listed didn't really have much merit to begin with.

However, there are several games that aside from being graphically dated still have solid game play. Super Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie are platformers that would still sell well if released today. So could any of the Smash series of Fighting games. There are plenty of games can stand the test of time well.
#119 Jun 24 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
**
572 posts
A few things to keep in mind, at least for how FF14 UI/controls will be.
SE needs to adapt the controls so that it can be played on a PS3 controller as easily as on a keyboard+mouse configuration.

Another point is that controlling you character in the enviroment should _not_ be heavily dependant on latency (lag/ping) since servers are in Japan. This will leave out fast action/button movement that we see in WoW. I agree that you can speed up from how fast FFXI is now but no way close to how WoW is.

On a side note, has anyone tried to play WoW with a PS2 lookalike pad? Oo


PS. Also the post that AureliusSir posted with the intervju as to the challanges that will face an MMO that tries to get into the console market;

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124588085922480384;num=1;page=1

"There's a lot of challenges. I'd say challenge number one is the input device. So if you're going to port a game like WOW how does that work? Do you ship a keyboard and a mouse? Do you try to make a game that [adapts] to all the different controls and buttons? That's a porting issue," Pardo said. "The bigger issue would be things like hard drives. I think WOW now is about 10 gigs and we're always pushing out more content. That's something cloud computing could eventually solve, but in the current generation of consoles that's a lot to deal with. You'd have to eat almost the entire hard drive, and there are Xbox consoles [sold to consumers] that don't have hard drives."

As you see, Nr1 issue is undoubtedly the input device limitation.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 6:11pm by Maldavian
#120 Jun 24 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
279 posts
I agree, FFXI was slow all around, but a few months might be a little out there. However, it's like this with all games when you get to endgame. When i raided in WoW (BC) I'd have to devote 4-5 hours a day, 5 days a week to raid, and I was only in a semi-hardcore guild. Needless to say I eventually burned out.

Maybe in Vanilla WoW, but it's come a long way from then. You don't need to raid anywhere near that much to progress.
____________________________
WoW - Quel'dorei <ON HOLD>

Main: Tancoo (80 Tauren Enhance Shaman)
Other: Saraah (63 BE Paladin)
Raymund (47 Troll Hunter)

FFXI - Carbuncle <RETIRED>
Raymund - 45 DRG, 42 PLD, 26 BLU, 30 RNG, 1 NIN <- I miss you Buster!
#121 Jun 24 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,159 posts
Maldavian wrote:
Another point is that controlling you character in the enviroment should _not_ be heavily dependant on latency (lag/ping) since servers are in Japan. This will leave out fast action/button movement that we see in WoW.


We don't yet know this. I certainly hope it wont be the case. It makes me angry just to think SE might once again ***** over people outside of japan and even, as you suggest, limit the game simply because they are unwilling to spread out their servers as any other MMO worth its salt does.

If they still want to keep the servers international, fine. They can still spread out their servers, and tell us where the servers are located. This way we can choose if diversity > latency. Those who want to play with those in different countries need only place themselves in the servers located there.
#122 Jun 24 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
43 posts
Yogtheterrible wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Another point is that controlling you character in the enviroment should _not_ be heavily dependant on latency (lag/ping) since servers are in Japan. This will leave out fast action/button movement that we see in WoW.


We don't yet know this. I certainly hope it wont be the case. It makes me angry just to think SE might once again ***** over people outside of japan and even, as you suggest, limit the game simply because they are unwilling to spread out their servers as any other MMO worth its salt does.

If they still want to keep the servers international, fine. They can still spread out their servers, and tell us where the servers are located. This way we can choose if diversity > latency. Those who want to play with those in different countries need only place themselves in the servers located there.



I agree. I currently live on the West coast of America, but previously lived in the East coast and I play wow. When I moved out here my latency/ping went to crap because I played on a east server. I switched to a west server in order to compensate this.

There had better be servers located around the world with the options to choose which server and zone you wish to be in.
#123 Jun 24 2009 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
I am slightly confused. You don't sit at a table and eat? You want a game to be playable for eating? 9/10 When I am eating, I'm sitting at a table, not in front of the computer or a console.


I don't know about you, but I don't eat 3 square meals a day. The only meal I always eat at the table is dinner. Breastfast, Lunch, Desert, and all snacks inbetween are eaten whereever I please.

Quote:
Really? Having played both games you really think FFXI requires, on average, the same number of inputs per second as WoW? If so then I think we're done, because this is demonstrably false.


On average? **** no. On average ffxi is going to be slower than wow. We never mentioned average though. You mentioned a range and took ffxis fast range and it's slow range and compared it to WoW. I merely enhanced upon that and included wows slow range and high range as well. At certain points the games will have at least a 1:1 ratio.

Quote:
Well some of the games you listed didn't really have much merit to begin with.

However, there are several games that aside from being graphically dated still have solid game play. Super Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie are platformers that would still sell well if released today. So could any of the Smash series of Fighting games. There are plenty of games can stand the test of time well.


Regardless, you yourself probably agree that at least 95% of all games made don't fit into that category. Right?
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#124 Jun 24 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
gumpman wrote:
Yogtheterrible wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Another point is that controlling you character in the enviroment should _not_ be heavily dependant on latency (lag/ping) since servers are in Japan. This will leave out fast action/button movement that we see in WoW.


We don't yet know this. I certainly hope it wont be the case. It makes me angry just to think SE might once again ***** over people outside of japan and even, as you suggest, limit the game simply because they are unwilling to spread out their servers as any other MMO worth its salt does.

If they still want to keep the servers international, fine. They can still spread out their servers, and tell us where the servers are located. This way we can choose if diversity > latency. Those who want to play with those in different countries need only place themselves in the servers located there.



I agree. I currently live on the West coast of America, but previously lived in the East coast and I play wow. When I moved out here my latency/ping went to crap because I played on a east server. I switched to a west server in order to compensate this.

There had better be servers located around the world with the options to choose which server and zone you wish to be in.


I'll be the first to admit that I've never touched WoW--the art's just not my style, so I never bothered--but did you switch worlds (which is to say, the server name that you'd been playing under) as well, or did the west server allow you to connect to that same world? I ask because that would be the only way to implement something like that, I think, if FFXIV is to be as community-based as FFXI is. Hypothetically, if I were playing FFXI right now on a East Coast based server that let me play on Lakshmi, and I were to move to the West Coast, I'd rather suffer the lag than leave the friends I've made if the West Coast based server didn't also let me play on Lakshmi. If that makes any sense. I should be asleep right now so I can't vouch for my coherency.
____________________________
"I want to hang a map of the world in my house then I’m gonna put pins into all the locations that I’ve traveled to. But first I’m gonna have to travel to the top two corners of the map so it won’t fall down." - Mitch Hedberg
#125 Jun 24 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
drachechan wrote:
I'll be the first to admit that I've never touched WoW--the art's just not my style, so I never bothered--but did you switch worlds (which is to say, the server name that you'd been playing under) as well, or did the west server allow you to connect to that same world? I ask because that would be the only way to implement something like that, I think, if FFXIV is to be as community-based as FFXI is. Hypothetically, if I were playing FFXI right now on a East Coast based server that let me play on Lakshmi, and I were to move to the West Coast, I'd rather suffer the lag than leave the friends I've made if the West Coast based server didn't also let me play on Lakshmi. If that makes any sense. I should be asleep right now so I can't vouch for my coherency.


It's a complete server transfer, just as a world transfer would be in FFXI. New hardware in a different location, new community, new everything...no ties to the old realm at all.
#126 Jun 24 2009 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
drachechan wrote:
I'll be the first to admit that I've never touched WoW--the art's just not my style, so I never bothered--but did you switch worlds (which is to say, the server name that you'd been playing under) as well, or did the west server allow you to connect to that same world? I ask because that would be the only way to implement something like that, I think, if FFXIV is to be as community-based as FFXI is. Hypothetically, if I were playing FFXI right now on a East Coast based server that let me play on Lakshmi, and I were to move to the West Coast, I'd rather suffer the lag than leave the friends I've made if the West Coast based server didn't also let me play on Lakshmi. If that makes any sense. I should be asleep right now so I can't vouch for my coherency.


It's a complete server transfer, just as a world transfer would be in FFXI. New hardware in a different location, new community, new everything...no ties to the old realm at all.


Thought so. Lame. At least with FFXI you know everyone else outside Japan's getting the same latency issues, so you don't that have incentive. But like I said, I guess XI is also much more community based.

I wonder if having different physical server locations connect to the same world would even be feasible?
____________________________
"I want to hang a map of the world in my house then I’m gonna put pins into all the locations that I’ve traveled to. But first I’m gonna have to travel to the top two corners of the map so it won’t fall down." - Mitch Hedberg
#127 Jun 24 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
drachechan wrote:

I wonder if having different physical server locations connect to the same world would even be feasible?


At some point, they'd all have to be connecting to the same hardware anyways...you'd just be inserting another hub into the pipeline. In terms of internet connections, less is usually more. The fewer machines your connection is routed through, the faster your connection.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 12:06am by AureliusSir
#128 Jun 24 2009 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
God, we need some info about the game from SE before we all start killing each other.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#129 Jun 24 2009 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,159 posts
Kirbster wrote:
God, we need some info about the game from SE before we all start killing each other.


HA! Seriously...and unless there's some sort of mechanic in these forums that automatically rates down someone who has been rated down a lot and rates up someone who has been rated up a lot I think people are starting to go rate crazy on a few people.
#130 Jun 24 2009 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
Sages' posts are good by default.


It doesn't prevent people going insane with the rate downs for no reason though.
Not that people downrating anyone who disagrees with them is new, really. I got sub-defaulted in the jump thread for respectfully disagreeing.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#131 Jun 25 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
372 posts
Quote:
I agree, FFXI was slow all around, but a few months might be a little out there.


Out there, you mean, maybe I exagerate? LOL! Nah! I literally knew a guy who put in a month off work just to finish his CoP and Zilart quests, then for weeks after work each day he would be shouting for Aht Urgan (sp) quests.

It's not that the game was THAT long or difficult, but it could be if you couldn't find the people, or worse... found the bad kind of people. The ones that didn't have a clue how to play.

But FFXIV is meant to be more single player friendly. I hope it is, but at the same time I really hope there's parts you need to group up because I found some good friends and had a few good laughs doing that.
#132 Jun 30 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
340 posts
FFXIV devs don't need to look at WoW for their UI. They need to look at Windower.

Specifically, they need to look at which addons for Windower are most used. After all, windower is used by what, about 80% of the FFXI community? I'm fairly certain that is far above the normal percentage of players violating the ToS in any given MMO, and there is a reason for it.

Something they absolutely need to NOT do is put your face in the HP/MP box. There's no reason for it and it looks stupid. I know what my face looks like and any time I forget I can just look at my character in the middle of the freaking screen.

Additionally, I hope they maintain - and build upon - their existing macro system rather than adopting the hotkey system used by so many MMOs these days. Comparing my initial use of macros as a RDM14 (my first job) to my initial use of hotkeys in WoW, the macros are vastly superior... though the lag in their execution could use some help.

I also hope they maintain a compass in the FFXI style rather than the minimaps used by so many MMOs - your character isn't running around with a backpack full of radar gear, after all. If you want to see what hostiles are around, LOOK! It keeps you sharp.

===========

EDIT: sh*t you guys reply fast. Taking my huge addon to this post and making it another post.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:02pm by Volkai
Second edit due to fixing html code to markup

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:20pm by Volkai
____________________________
-Volkai
"Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive." -Bugs Bunny

to be actually enjoying the game
#133 Jun 30 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
Volkai wrote:
FFXIV devs don't need to look at WoW for their UI. They need to look at Windower.

Specifically, they need to look at which addons for Windower are most used. After all, windower is used by what, about 80% of the FFXI community? I'm fairly certain that is far above the normal percentage of players violating the ToS in any given MMO, and there is a reason for it.

Something they <i>absolutely</i> need to <b>NOT</b> do is put your face in the HP/MP box. There's no reason for it and it looks stupid. I know what my face looks like and any time I forget I can just look at my character <i>in the middle of the freaking screen.</i>

Additionally, I hope they maintain - and build upon - their existing macro system rather than adopting the hotkey system used by so many MMOs these days. Comparing my initial use of macros as a RDM14 (my first job) to my initial use of hotkeys in WoW, the macros are vastly superior... though the lag in their execution could use some help.

I also hope they maintain a compass in the FFXI style rather than the minimaps used by so many MMOs - your character isn't running around with a backpack full of radar gear, after all. If you want to see what hostiles are around, LOOK! It keeps you sharp.


I agree with most of this, but I have some changes. :p The macro system basically is a hotkey system. When using windower you can even bind macros to any keys you want. The only difference is that WoW's macro system has buttons that you can also click on to activate, right? I'd like to do without needing to have the picture somewhere before I can bind it to a key. (I could be wrong about not being able to do that.)

And for the mini-map thingy, I'd like to keep the compass but to also have the ability to have a scaled down translucent mini-map as well. Like you can do with ffassist. FFXI has radar too, although only some jobs get it. I for one wouldn't be able to live without my red dots! XD
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#134 Jun 30 2009 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Volkai wrote:
Additionally, I hope they maintain - and build upon - their existing macro system rather than adopting the hotkey system used by so many MMOs these days. Comparing my initial use of macros as a RDM14 (my first job) to my initial use of hotkeys in WoW, the macros are vastly superior... though the lag in their execution could use some help.


I'm not really sure why you might say that. In terms of function, single line macros in FFXI function identically to drag-and-drop spell activation from the action bar in WoW (with the added bonus of the lag in FFXI as you mentioned). The actual versatility of the macro script in WoW is vastly superior to what is possible in FFXI. The only significant difference between action bars in WoW and the macro palette in FFXI is that the first two action bars in WoW are visible by default whereas the macro palette in FFXI is concealed. If you don't like the action bars on your screen, you can toggle them to hidden in the UI.

Quote:
I also hope they maintain a compass in the FFXI style rather than the minimaps used by so many MMOs - your character isn't running around with a backpack full of radar gear, after all. If you want to see what hostiles are around, LOOK! It keeps you sharp.


Compass maps are an extremely handy feature that add a great deal to a user friendly interface. If you don't like them, you don't like them, but it beats the **** out of having to open a full-screen map every time you want to get your bearings.
#135 Jun 30 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
340 posts

Raymund wrote:
WoW has a macro system same as FFXI you know.


You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I hate that saying. Sure you can. What's the point of having the cake if you can't eat it? To stare at it longingly? To admire what you can't have?
The point of having cake is to share it with friends and everyone eats a slice and has a beautiful time. However, after the cake has been eaten, it is no longer there. When you eat it, it is gone, and thus you cannot have and also eat a cake at the same time. Although I guess if you were somehow able to eat it and then somehow regurgitate it in an uneaten form, you would be able to both have and eat it... but regurgitated foodstuffs of all sorts tend to end up in a post-eaten, actively disgusting form that is less than edible.

SEforPrez wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
You don't think the atmosphere of the game is a direct link between the slow nature of it? Some things may have been on the slow side, but (near) instant gratification is worse. If you could teleport easily right off the bat, or ride fast past everything, I guarantee you it wouldn't have the same atmosphere.

What I'm saying is that it would flop because people are so used to absolutely everything being easier and simple, not better-designed, and that in my eyes isn't really a good thing.


The first time I trekked from Sandy through La Thiene to party in the Dunes was amazing. The fifth time, the novelty had worn off, but it was still pretty cool. By the 10th-plus time, it was a mind-sucking timesink that I despised.
Hunh. By the tenth plus time, I was taking a Chocobo and thumbing my nose at Bloodtear Bald-whateverhislastnameis. But then, the first time I went to Valk to PT I set my Home Point there and didn't leave 'til I was level 20 and had Support Job access unlocked. Then I went to Jeuno (thanks to the assistance of a more experience adventurer who stealthed me there) and got my Chocobo License. THEN I went back and started leveling my first subjob.

I love Chocobos.

Allegory wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I'd put the minimum at 1:1 actually.

Really? Having played both games you really think FFXI requires, on average, the same number of inputs per second as WoW? If so then I think we're done, because this is demonstrably false.
Allegory, you're being a bit disingenuous here. Minimum and average are not, I repeat <b>NOT</b> the same thing. A minimum is this: It take the exact same number of keystrokes (1) to one-shot a level 1 monster when you are at or above level 70.

Raymund wrote:
I agree, FFXI was slow all around, but a few months might be a little out there. However, it's like this with all games when you get to endgame. When i raided in WoW (BC) I'd have to devote 4-5 hours a day, 5 days a week to raid, and I was only in a semi-hardcore guild. Needless to say I eventually burned out.

Maybe in Vanilla WoW, but it's come a long way from then. You don't need to raid anywhere near that much to progress.

Oh hey guess what?! Guess what guess what guess what! FFXI has come a long way from then, too! You see, there's this endgame thing, it's called Einherjar, and it's 30 minutes a run at an average limit of 2 runs a week and a maximum of 7 runs every 3 weeks! You can get all the abjuration armors from the ground kings there, plus some other new stuff. Also there's Nyzul Isle and Assault which are both an average limit of 1 run a day (usually ~30 minutes a run), though you can bunch up a normal maximum of 4 run in a day by not doing it for three days. It has other endgame-level gear. And and and... well you already know what I'm getting at: you don't need to raid anywhere near that much to progress.

The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
[quote](Waaay too much stuff for me to respond to it all individually.)
I like you. Not in that way, but still.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:00pm by Volkai EDIT: moved into a new post.
____________________________
-Volkai
"Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive." -Bugs Bunny

to be actually enjoying the game
#136 Jun 30 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
340 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Volkai wrote:
Additionally, I hope they maintain - and build upon - their existing macro system rather than adopting the hotkey system used by so many MMOs these days. Comparing my initial use of macros as a RDM14 (my first job) to my initial use of hotkeys in WoW, the macros are vastly superior... though the lag in their execution could use some help.


I'm not really sure why you might say that. In terms of function, single line macros in FFXI function identically to drag-and-drop spell activation from the action bar in WoW (with the added bonus of the lag in FFXI as you mentioned). The actual versatility of the macro script in WoW is vastly superior to what is possible in FFXI. The only significant difference between action bars in WoW and the macro palette in FFXI is that the first two action bars in WoW are visible by default whereas the macro palette in FFXI is concealed. If you don't like the action bars on your screen, you can toggle them to hidden in the UI.


Actually there's more difference than you seem to realize. WoW's is all keyboard-only and it's 1 through = on the number line. FF's is CTRL+1-0 and ALT+1-0 and is accessible through the controller. PLUS, you can very, very easily access the Macro editor in FFXI - I can't tell you how many times I swapped Seer's Slacks and Custom Slacks in my 'casting equip' macro when I was leveling Scholar. Twenty-two levels into WoW and I still don't see any hotkey>macro system, just single-command hotkeys for abilities.

Keep in mind, I don't use Spellcast or other out-of-game macro editing functions for FFXI, and if it's an out-of-game thing in WoW I don't know how you do it. I am simply looking at the Macro function FFXI comes with and the Hotkey function WoW comes with and between the two WoW's hotkey bars are found wanting.

EDIT: grammar fix. "when level Scholar"? Stupid hands, type what I'm thinking!

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:25pm by Volkai
____________________________
-Volkai
"Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive." -Bugs Bunny

to be actually enjoying the game
#137 Jun 30 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
4 posts
Umm, did you every type /macro? WoW has a very complex macro and keybind system, and just because you failed to learn it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:50pm by duneadx
#138 Jun 30 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
***
1,246 posts
One of the things that bugs me about WoW is this;
If you ever turned away whilst someone was playing in a Raid for example, all you can hear is...
*click* *Click* *click* *Doubleclick!* *click* *click* *click* *Click*

And that pretty much sums up the gameplay in my opinion.

FFXI has a more laid back macro system, it lets you think about what you're doing rather then just mindless and probably involuntary clicks. Not to mention FFXI NEEDS macros, because going through the menu each time would be far too impracticle, that said I think there was a hint of option, the way the game is designed reminds you that you still have a short time to find a spell or type /ma whatever if finding the macro is too slow. WoW is more relentless in this sense, if it isn't there you cant cast it.

Picking up the speed of the game doesn't necissarily mean making battles take place at 2x the speed, there are other ways too. I don't see why you would WANT the game to tick over so fast you can see what the **** is happening...

____________________________
Meowth!
#139 Jun 30 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,814 posts
Volkai wrote:
Allegory, you're being a bit disingenuous here. Minimum and average are not, I repeat <b>NOT</b> the same thing. A minimum is this: It take the exact same number of keystrokes (1) to one-shot a level 1 monster when you are at or above level 70.

Normally I'd assume sarcasm, since this is such a blatantly silly resposne, but with your failing to understand how much more robust and even similar WoW's macro system is I don't think I can make that safe assumption. Unless that too is satire.

To say that the minimum is 1:1 because both max levels can one shot a level 1 mob is the very definition of disingenuous.
#140 Jun 30 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
340 posts
duneadx wrote:
Umm, did you every type /macro? WoW has a very complex macro and keybind system, and just because you failed to learn it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:50pm by duneadx

If I can't figure out how to access it by the time I'm level 22, when I've been shown the ropes by an experienced player (up to level 14) and been exploring both the game and the UI for a good 20-30 hours, then it isn't exactly easy/intuitive to access, now is it? Besides which, I cannot in good conscience include into my analysis something I have neither touched nor seen - the same reason I don't involve Spellcast or out-of-game macro editing in my analysis of FFXI macros.
____________________________
-Volkai
"Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive." -Bugs Bunny

to be actually enjoying the game
#141 Jun 30 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
340 posts
Doublepost, whoops.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 4:11pm by Volkai
____________________________
-Volkai
"Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive." -Bugs Bunny

to be actually enjoying the game
#142 Jun 30 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
340 posts
Allegory wrote:
Volkai wrote:
Allegory, you're being a bit disingenuous here. Minimum and average are not, I repeat <b>NOT</b> the same thing. A minimum is this: It take the exact same number of keystrokes (1) to one-shot a level 1 monster when you are at or above level 70.

Normally I'd assume sarcasm, since this is such a blatantly silly resposne, but with your failing to understand how much more robust and even similar WoW's macro system is I don't think I can make that safe assumption. Unless that too is satire.

To say that the minimum is 1:1 because both max levels can one shot a level 1 mob is the very definition of disingenuous.
In this you are quite wrong. There is nothing disingenuous about saying this concerning the minimum. If I were to be saying it about the median, mean, or average, that is another matter. Perhaps what you means was not 'the minimum' but 'the lower end of average' or 'the minimum, excluding outliers'? These are both different than 'the minimum'.
____________________________
-Volkai
"Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive." -Bugs Bunny

to be actually enjoying the game
#143 Jun 30 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
Volkai wrote:
Actually there's more difference than you seem to realize. WoW's is all keyboard-only and it's 1 through = on the number line.


That's not true. You can use your mouse to activate your skills by clicking on the action bar (it's a practice frowned upon because it's disturbingly inefficient, but it's an option nonetheless).

WoW allows for a total of 10 action bars with individual keybindings (that you can edit) for each spot, giving you access to 100 abilities and macros. I think there are addons that let you extend that limit. You can also bind action bar slots to mouse buttons, or combinations of keypresses + mouse button presses (ie. Alt + Mouse5). The stock UI is customizable to a very significant degree (even without addons).

Quote:
FF's is CTRL+1-0 and ALT+1-0 and is accessible through the controller. PLUS, you can very, very easily access the Macro editor in FFXI - I can't tell you how many times I swapped Seer's Slacks and Custom Slacks in my 'casting equip' macro when I was leveling Scholar. Twenty-two levels into WoW and I still don't see any hotkey>macro system, just single-command hotkeys for abilities.


The macro menu in WoW is available from the main in-game menu. Like...if you're in-game in WoW and you press the escape key? Ya...right there. It's labeled "Macros" on the list. I know, I know, WoW has just...so many menus and drop down lists and whew...mind boggling...oh wait...that's FFXI. That same menu where you find the "Macros" option is also the one you use to access the UI keybindings interface so you can adjust the location and visibility status of your action bars as well as edit your keybindings.

Quote:
Keep in mind, I don't use Spellcast or other out-of-game macro editing functions for FFXI, and if it's an out-of-game thing in WoW I don't know how you do it. I am simply looking at the Macro function FFXI comes with and the Hotkey function WoW comes with and between the two WoW's hotkey bars are found wanting.


Ya, but see...here's sort of the frustration from the point of view of someone who is trying to be open minded and objective in my critique of all MMOs and what I'd like to see in FFXIV. I make a post outlining that the action bar in WoW and the macro palette in FFXI are functionally identical once you have them set up. In that same post...the one you responded to...I specifically mentioned WoW's macro system, and your response is to the effect that WoW doesn't have a macro system because you haven't found it. I'm not singling you out, but this is getting really, really old. I told you there's a macro system. It's in my post. The on you responded to. Did you skim over that part? Read it and think I was making stuff up? I could understand if the command to access the macro interface in WoW was hidden and buried under layers of different menus, but it's not. It's directly accessible from the main in-game menu.
#144 Jun 30 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
ditx wrote:
One of the things that bugs me about WoW is this;
If you ever turned away whilst someone was playing in a Raid for example, all you can hear is...
*click* *Click* *click* *Doubleclick!* *click* *click* *click* *Click*

And that pretty much sums up the gameplay in my opinion.


Good WoW players don't click to activate abilities in combat.

Quote:
FFXI has a more laid back macro system, it lets you think about what you're doing rather then just mindless and probably involuntary clicks. Not to mention FFXI NEEDS macros, because going through the menu each time would be far too impracticle, that said I think there was a hint of option, the way the game is designed reminds you that you still have a short time to find a spell or type /ma whatever if finding the macro is too slow. WoW is more relentless in this sense, if it isn't there you cant cast it.


I have direct and instant access to over 24 spells/abilities/macros without taking my right hand off the mouse or moving my left hand more than an inch in any given direction. 24 abilities/macros is quite a lot and more than enough to handle any situation in WoW. Each of those abilities has a purpose and is neither mindless nor involuntary. I have a standard rotation involving roughly half a dozen abilities activated on a 1.5 second global cooldown with ability cooldowns in the 6-9 second range. I have a substantial number of situational abilities readily available to me as well, the use of which depending on the encounter and whether or not everything goes as planned.

Quote:
Picking up the speed of the game doesn't necissarily mean making battles take place at 2x the speed, there are other ways too. I don't see why you would WANT the game to tick over so fast you can see what the **** is happening...


And conversely, I can't see why someone would want to play a game where voluntary actions frequently occur at such large intervals.
#145 Jun 30 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
340 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Volkai wrote:
Actually there's more difference than you seem to realize. WoW's is all keyboard-only and it's 1 through = on the number line.


That's not true. You can use your mouse to activate your skills by clicking on the action bar (it's a practice frowned upon because it's disturbingly inefficient, but it's an option nonetheless).
True enough, I suppose. I should mention you can use the mouse to click on FFXI's macros as well, then - though you need to hit Ctrl or Alt to bring them up on screen first. (It may be possible to get them to stay showing, I don't know if so or not.)

Quote:
WoW allows for a total of 10 action bars with individual keybindings (that you can edit) for each spot, giving you access to 100 abilities and macros. I think there are addons that let you extend that limit. You can also bind action bar slots to mouse buttons, or combinations of keypresses + mouse button presses (ie. Alt + Mouse5). The stock UI is customizable to a very significant degree (even without addons).
So that's a default 100 vs. FFXI's default of 4,000... by my view, FFXI is still coming out ahead. <.< And while you can't, via FFXI (though you can via windower, I hear) bind macros to additional keys, there are macro commands to switch macro pallete/book so that you can bypass the standard 6-line code limit pretty easily. And again, this is all while ingame.

Quote:
Quote:
FF's is CTRL+1-0 and ALT+1-0 and is accessible through the controller. PLUS, you can very, very easily access the Macro editor in FFXI - I can't tell you how many times I swapped Seer's Slacks and Custom Slacks in my 'casting equip' macro when I was leveling Scholar. Twenty-two levels into WoW and I still don't see any hotkey>macro system, just single-command hotkeys for abilities.


The macro menu in WoW is available from the main in-game menu. Like...if you're in-game in WoW and you press the escape key? Ya...right there. It's labeled "Macros" on the list. I know, I know, WoW has just...so many menus and drop down lists and whew...mind boggling...oh wait...that's FFXI. That same menu where you find the "Macros" option is also the one you use to access the UI keybindings interface so you can adjust the location and visibility status of your action bars as well as edit your keybindings.
Quote:
Ah. I've never really looked at that menu aside from the 'exit game' function, since most everything else I can access from the right side of the bottom of the screen.

[quote][quote]Keep in mind, I don't use Spellcast or other out-of-game macro editing functions for FFXI, and if it's an out-of-game thing in WoW I don't know how you do it. I am simply looking at the Macro function FFXI comes with and the Hotkey function WoW comes with and between the two WoW's hotkey bars are found wanting.


Ya, but see...here's sort of the frustration from the point of view of someone who is trying to be open minded and objective in my critique of all MMOs and what I'd like to see in FFXIV. I make a post outlining that the action bar in WoW and the macro palette in FFXI are functionally identical once you have them set up. In that same post...the one you responded to...I specifically mentioned WoW's macro system, and your response is to the effect that WoW doesn't have a macro system because you haven't found it. I'm not singling you out, but this is getting really, really old. I told you there's a macro system. It's in my post. The on you responded to. Did you skim over that part? Read it and think I was making stuff up? I could understand if the command to access the macro interface in WoW was hidden and buried under layers of different menus, but it's not. It's directly accessible from the main in-game menu.
I never said there is no macro system. What I put in my analysis is based on what I have experienced, not what others have experienced or told me about. I did not automatically gain your experiences by reading your post so I'm not going to be able to include the WoW Macro system I've never used firsthand just because I read about it in your post!
____________________________
-Volkai
"Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive." -Bugs Bunny

to be actually enjoying the game
#146 Jun 30 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
340 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
ditx wrote:
One of the things that bugs me about WoW is this;
If you ever turned away whilst someone was playing in a Raid for example, all you can hear is...
*click* *Click* *click* *Doubleclick!* *click* *click* *click* *Click*

And that pretty much sums up the gameplay in my opinion.


Good WoW players don't click to activate abilities in combat.
Do you have a better sound effect for someone hitting keys on a keyboard?

Quote:
Quote:
FFXI has a more laid back macro system, it lets you think about what you're doing rather then just mindless and probably involuntary clicks. Not to mention FFXI NEEDS macros, because going through the menu each time would be far too impracticle, that said I think there was a hint of option, the way the game is designed reminds you that you still have a short time to find a spell or type /ma whatever if finding the macro is too slow. WoW is more relentless in this sense, if it isn't there you cant cast it.


I have direct and instant access to over 24 spells/abilities/macros without taking my right hand off the mouse or moving my left hand more than an inch in any given direction. 24 abilities/macros is quite a lot and more than enough to handle any situation in WoW. Each of those abilities has a purpose and is neither mindless nor involuntary. I have a standard rotation involving roughly half a dozen abilities activated on a 1.5 second global cooldown with ability cooldowns in the 6-9 second range. I have a substantial number of situational abilities readily available to me as well, the use of which depending on the encounter and whether or not everything goes as planned.
You have 24. I have 4,000.

Okay, I don't actually have 4,000. But I could if I felt the need to. 40 per job is usually enough though.

Quote:
Quote:
Picking up the speed of the game doesn't necessarily mean making battles take place at 2x the speed, there are other ways too. I don't see why you would WANT the game to tick over so fast you can see what the **** is happening...


And conversely, I can't see why someone would want to play a game where voluntary actions frequently occur at such large intervals.
So you can take time to think about what you're doing next instead of feeling rushed.
____________________________
-Volkai
"Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive." -Bugs Bunny

to be actually enjoying the game
#147 Jun 30 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,824 posts
Quote:
You have 24. I have 4,000.

Okay, I don't actually have 4,000. But I could if I felt the need to. 40 per job is usually enough though.


Where are you getting 4,000?
#148 Jun 30 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
43 posts
Volkai wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Volkai wrote:
Actually there's more difference than you seem to realize. WoW's is all keyboard-only and it's 1 through = on the number line.


That's not true. You can use your mouse to activate your skills by clicking on the action bar (it's a practice frowned upon because it's disturbingly inefficient, but it's an option nonetheless).
True enough, I suppose. I should mention you can use the mouse to click on FFXI's macros as well, then - though you need to hit Ctrl or Alt to bring them up on screen first. (It may be possible to get them to stay showing, I don't know if so or not.)

Quote:
WoW allows for a total of 10 action bars with individual keybindings (that you can edit) for each spot, giving you access to 100 abilities and macros. I think there are addons that let you extend that limit. You can also bind action bar slots to mouse buttons, or combinations of keypresses + mouse button presses (ie. Alt + Mouse5). The stock UI is customizable to a very significant degree (even without addons).
So that's a default 100 vs. FFXI's default of 4,000... by my view, FFXI is still coming out ahead. <.< And while you can't, via FFXI (though you can via windower, I hear) bind macros to additional keys, there are macro commands to switch macro pallete/book so that you can bypass the standard 6-line code limit pretty easily. And again, this is all while ingame.



I think you're confused about something. FFXI seems to only have ctrl1-0 and alt1-0 as macros a total of 20. I don't understand how you get to 4000. Also each macro in wow can have up to 255 characters, mods can increase that to infinite, I know ffxi windower has someting similar.



Edit: Also, each player has his own macro setups, I myself have 44 keybinds all hidden off screen for multiple abilities using almost the entire keyboard. Each one is bound to a macro and serves a purpose.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 1:53pm by gumpman
#149 Jun 30 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
279 posts
Yeah where is 4000 coming from? When I played a few years ago you had 10 panes of 10 macros each. One for ctrl, one for alt. 200 macros. Unless they added 3900 since I left....



Picking up the speed of the game doesn't necissarily mean making battles take place at 2x the speed, there are other ways too. I don't see why you would WANT the game to tick over so fast you can see what the **** is happening...



And conversely, I can't see why someone would want to play a game where voluntary actions frequently occur at such large intervals.


Which is why I advocate a happy medium. Not as twitchy as WoW but with more than 3 melee abilities so you're hitting buttons more than every 20 seconds as I did as a melee in FFXI.
____________________________
WoW - Quel'dorei <ON HOLD>

Main: Tancoo (80 Tauren Enhance Shaman)
Other: Saraah (63 BE Paladin)
Raymund (47 Troll Hunter)

FFXI - Carbuncle <RETIRED>
Raymund - 45 DRG, 42 PLD, 26 BLU, 30 RNG, 1 NIN <- I miss you Buster!
#150 Jun 30 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,814 posts
Volkai wrote:
In this you are quite wrong. There is nothing disingenuous about saying this concerning the minimum. If I were to be saying it about the median, mean, or average, that is another matter. Perhaps what you means was not 'the minimum' but 'the lower end of average' or 'the minimum, excluding outliers'? These are both different than 'the minimum'.

It's disingenuous because first it is clear he did not intend it to be the absolute minimum, he meant a reasonable minimum, because the absolute minimum is 1 hot in every single game at max level which makes the comment pointless. Second, you're trying to say I was wrong based on a technicality when you're not even technically correct. Sure it only takes 1 shot at max level to kill a level 1 mob in either game, but I can single targeted one shot critters in WoW faster than you can one shot them in FFXI, so it's still not a 1:1 minimum activity ratio.

This is a silly point of contention to argue over, but since I'm right I thought I might as well. I'm petty like that.
#151 Jun 30 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,814 posts
Volkai wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Good WoW players don't click to activate abilities in combat.
Do you have a better sound effect for someone hitting keys on a keyboard?

You can access abilities faster than by clicking. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but it does affect your DPS when you're using abilities .1 second faster every 1.5 seconds. It can also mean the difference between a dead tank and a living one.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 21 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (21)