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UI design, will SE follow like the rest of the sheep?Follow

#152 Jun 30 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmmm....

I would like to respond to a very intelligent post here, and address a few of its rebuttals. I very rarely post on online forums, so please forgive any faux pas I make.

Maldavian said:

Quote:
A few things to keep in mind, at least for how FF14 UI/controls will be.
SE needs to adapt the controls so that it can be played on a PS3 controller as easily as on a keyboard+mouse configuration.


This is, in my opinion, the leading cause of most of the "problems" with the FFXI interface, although most of us already grant that. Fortunately, the PS3 has keyboard and mouse functionality; in fact, after doing some research (sorry, I do not own a PS3 yet, so I had to look it up ^.^;) if the game is programmed to support USB keyboard and mouses - I'm looking at you SE - you can just use your crappy $10 USB keyboard and mouse.

That being said, it's likely that this won't go over well since it requires third party equipment. A simple solution, of course, would be to sell two version, with and without a cheap keyboard/mouse set. It would eliminate a lot of the major controller hurdles. Personally, I think that SE did a **** good job with the FFXI interface, considering they had (counts on his fingers...) 17 buttons to work with.

Secondly, this:
Quote:

Another point is that controlling you character in the enviroment should _not_ be heavily dependant on latency (lag/ping) since servers are in Japan. This will leave out fast action/button movement that we see in WoW. I agree that you can speed up from how fast FFXI is now but no way close to how WoW is.


Wow... thank you for bringing this up, server latency extends to every part of the game development for a project like this, and I have to admit, I had not considered the ramifications of server communication times on the UI.

Yogtheterrible said:

Quote:
We don't yet know this. I certainly hope it wont be the case. It makes me angry just to think SE might once again ***** over people outside of japan and even, as you suggest, limit the game simply because they are unwilling to spread out their servers as any other MMO worth its salt does.


I'm not sure I agree with this; well, I should say that I think your argument is valid, but that I don't think that SE will see it the same way. Global servers are already a confirmed part of the FFXIV world. Which I think is probably a good idea (oops did I let an opinion through). A very large part of the SE constituency is in Japan. In terms of business, by placing servers in Japan, it was a good financial choice, since it appeased the largest consumer base. Technologically speaking, since the game started a year earlier in the east than the west, it was impractical to relocate servers, and opening new ones would have gone against the global feel I believe SE was trying to get. Also, the latency issue spoken of before means that, because more (much more) players played in the east, having the servers there was the right choice to appease the largest audience.

But fear not, there are a few good signs for the game yet to come. For one thing, it is a worldwide release, and while I don't think that will necessarily help the lag/latency issue by itself, it lends itself well to a more diversified base. Not to mention SE has spoken toward their wish to work with the US branch closer in coming games.

Speculation Warning: (cough, oh my, speculation in the FFXIV forum) Having pondered this for a while, drachechan asked:

Quote:

I wonder if having different physical server locations connect to the same world would even be feasible?


While on the surface, this is not easily possible, since the "server" is a set of hardware similar to a computer (a powerful computer, but a computer) where a data is stored on large banks of hard drives, then calculations are run on the data on accompanying processors (please excuse me if my server information isn't quite right, I don't have to work with servers often, so it is a woeful hole in my education). As such, distributing to multiple locations is difficult, since they would need to be in sync, and all have access to the same data (this means queries between the distributed servers further slowing communications). However, what about tiered servers, similar to a distributive computing model.

There would be a "Primary Server" that held "Slow" information (this is similar to interrupts in concept if you are familiar) slow information would be like mob position, special conditions (weather), "slow" player position.

Above that would be "Regional Servers" that would be copies of the primary servers, namely, they wouldn't be whole new worlds but as drachechan suggested, they would be copies of the main servers, but local. These regional servers would hold "Fast" information. Fast information would be things like, up to date player location (this would be sent to the primary, then piped to the other regionals), player actions, mob actions in combat. All of the information would be disseminated through the primary server to the other regional servers.

Every second, a syncing ping could be sent to resync the servers to the same time to make up for inconsistencies. Before someone tells me this is overly complicated and not much reward, yes, I know. This would, at most, give you an extra .5 seconds, and put everyone on even ground. Not to mention, writing the code that synced the servers and deciding what would be low-level information and what would be high level information would be a nightmare.

Just a possible solution, food for thought, so to speak.

Back to the UI though, the user side logic should take care of a lot of latency issues, since a "good" UI layer will keep track of the clicks you've made, even if the signals haven't made it to the server yet and amends the signal appropriately. I think....

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 5:36pm by Hulan
#153 Jun 30 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Volkai wrote:
Okay, I don't actually have 4,000. But I could if I felt the need to. 40 per job is usually enough though.


I have access to up to 100. 24 is all I use.

Quote:
Quote:
And conversely, I can't see why someone would want to play a game where voluntary actions frequently occur at such large intervals.
So you can take time to think about what you're doing next instead of feeling rushed.


*in Peter Griffin voice*

"Geez..that monster sure is ugly. I wonder if I...noooo...should I? Noooo...well maybe. Should I cast a spell? Should...should I cast a spell? What do you guys think? Should I cast a spell? Or should I hit it with something? Hey...any of you guys have an extra stick? I forgot mine. Ya...a stick. God these pants are tight...I can hardly move. Should I maybe change my pants to something more comfortable? It's hard to fight in these things..."

What is there to think about? Observe, assess, execute.
#154 Jun 30 2009 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Volkai wrote:
So that's a default 100 vs. FFXI's default of 4,000... by my view, FFXI is still coming out ahead. <.<


I trust you'll forgive me for preferring quality over quantity. Show me someone who uses more than 100 macros for a single job in FFXI.

Quote:
I never said there is no macro system. What I put in my analysis is based on what I have experienced, not what others have experienced or told me about. I did not automatically gain your experiences by reading your post so I'm not going to be able to include the WoW Macro system I've never used firsthand just because I read about it in your post!


Of course not, but by the same token after I post that there's a macro system in WoW, I wouldn't expect you to come back and suggest that there isn't one, much less compare the one you don't think is there to the one in FFXI as though the FFXI system is better. I would sort of expect that if you don't think there's a macro system based on your experience and someone points out to you that there is, you would investigate before you carry on with your previous line of thinking. That's just me, though.
#155 Jun 30 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
Volkai wrote:
In this you are quite wrong. There is nothing disingenuous about saying this concerning the minimum. If I were to be saying it about the median, mean, or average, that is another matter. Perhaps what you means was not 'the minimum' but 'the lower end of average' or 'the minimum, excluding outliers'? These are both different than 'the minimum'.

It's disingenuous because first it is clear he did not intend it to be the absolute minimum, he meant a reasonable minimum, because the absolute minimum is 1 hot in every single game at max level which makes the comment pointless. Second, you're trying to say I was wrong based on a technicality when you're not even technically correct. Sure it only takes 1 shot at max level to kill a level 1 mob in either game, but I can single targeted one shot critters in WoW faster than you can one shot them in FFXI, so it's still not a 1:1 minimum activity ratio.

This is a silly point of contention to argue over, but since I'm right I thought I might as well. I'm petty like that.
Yeah, except you're wrong. But whatever.

Allegory wrote:
Volkai wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Good WoW players don't click to activate abilities in combat.
Do you have a better sound effect for someone hitting keys on a keyboard?

You can access abilities faster than by clicking. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but it does affect your DPS when you're using abilities .1 second faster every 1.5 seconds. It can also mean the difference between a dead tank and a living one.
Faster than by pressing a key on your keyboard? I'm intrigued, how so?

AureliusSir wrote:
Volkai wrote:
So that's a default 100 vs. FFXI's default of 4,000... by my view, FFXI is still coming out ahead. <.<


I trust you'll forgive me for preferring quality over quantity. Show me someone who uses more than 100 macros for a single job in FFXI.
I can't just now, as I don't go around asking people about their macro setups. That said, I have about 80 macros for Warrior, and once I finish leveling my support jobs for it that number will probably top out at about 120. Besides which, it's not an issue of needing 4,000, it's an issue of that the capacity is there if you need it.

On the other hand, FFXI also has 20 jobs you can all take to 75, so unless you're really committed to one job in particular you're unlikely to use all your macros on one. If you want to spread it around evenly between all of them it averages out to 200 macros per job.

And it's funny how you start by boasting about how WoW has more macros and then say you prefer quality over quantity.

Quote:
Quote:
I never said there is no macro system. What I put in my analysis is based on what I have experienced, not what others have experienced or told me about. I did not automatically gain your experiences by reading your post so I'm not going to be able to include the WoW Macro system I've never used firsthand just because I read about it in your post!


Of course not, but by the same token after I post that there's a macro system in WoW, I wouldn't expect you to come back and suggest that there isn't one, much less compare the one you don't think is there to the one in FFXI as though the FFXI system is better. I would sort of expect that if you don't think there's a macro system based on your experience and someone points out to you that there is, you would investigate before you carry on with your previous line of thinking. That's just me, though.

Yesser, investigating WoW macros on my Linux laptop, understood sir!
...
No can do sir! Laptop is a piece of junk that's good for nothin' outside of browsing the web and listening to music sir! Can't handle WoW, can't even handle FFXI sir! I'll make sure to come back in three days after investigating and subsequently get rating-bombed for necroposting sir! No sir, that's never happened before, sir! Yes sir, I am being quite sarcastic when I say that sir!

Hulan wrote:
Hmmm....

I would like to respond to a very intelligent post here, and address a few of its rebuttals. I very rarely post on online forums, so please forgive any faux pas I make.

Maldavian said:

Quote:
A few things to keep in mind, at least for how FF14 UI/controls will be.
SE needs to adapt the controls so that it can be played on a PS3 controller as easily as on a keyboard+mouse configuration.


This is, in my opinion, the leading cause of most of the "problems" with the FFXI interface, although most of us already grant that. Fortunately, the PS3 has keyboard and mouse functionality; in fact, after doing some research (sorry, I do not own a PS3 yet, so I had to look it up ^.^;) if the game is programmed to support USB keyboard and mouses - I'm looking at you SE - you can just use your crappy $10 USB keyboard and mouse.

That being said, it's likely that this won't go over well since it requires third party equipment. A simple solution, of course, would be to sell two version, with and without a cheap keyboard/mouse set. It would eliminate a lot of the major controller hurdles. Personally, I think that SE did a **** good job with the FFXI interface, considering they had (counts on his fingers...) 17 buttons to work with.

FFXI had keyboard functionality on the PS2 right at launch in addition to the controller-only setup. Mouse functionality on the PS2 I don't recall it having, but frankly I never missed it when I played on PS2 and never cared to when I switched to PC. While I am looking forward to improved keyboard controls (hopefully not like WoWs, as I'm not much a fan of their control setup - and yes, I tried it with an open mind before coming to conclusions about it) as FF's keyboard-only controls leave something to be desired, I would rather not see it with mouse-only critical command functions.


baelnic wrote:
Quote:
You have 24. I have 4,000.

Okay, I don't actually have 4,000. But I could if I felt the need to. 40 per job is usually enough though.


Where are you getting 4,000?
One page = Ctrl 1-0 + Alt 1-0 = 20 macros
10 pages (20*10=200 macros) = 1 book
20 books (200*20 = 4,000 macros) = available number of macros
Macro-able command to switch between pages and books = all 4,000 macros accessible via Ctrl+Alt+1~0(Keyboard), or via L2/R2 and left and right arrows on the D-pad(PS2 Controller), or via one set of the L/R buttons (I forget if it's Trigger or Bumper) and left and right arrows on the D-pad(X360 Controller), or by two mappable buttons plus whatever directions you map to left and right on some directional object(PC/USB Controller).
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#156 Jun 30 2009 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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200 macros per job!? How!?

And as I said, as far as I know there's still only 200 available macros spots. Where is this 4000 coming from?
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#157 Jun 30 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Volkai wrote:

Yesser, investigating WoW macros on my Linux laptop, understood sir!
...
No can do sir! Laptop is a piece of junk that's good for nothin' outside of browsing the web and listening to music sir! Can't handle WoW, can't even handle FFXI sir! I'll make sure to come back in three days after investigating and subsequently get rating-bombed for necroposting sir! No sir, that's never happened before, sir! Yes sir, I am being quite sarcastic when I say that sir!


Or you could have just...you know...abstained from further comment on that particular issue until you had had a chance to check it out for yourself. That's just what I would do, though, so if ignoring what people are saying and carrying on with a line of thought despite evidence to the contrary is more your way of doing things, fill yer boots.

I think, however, that from a general forum perspective, this place would be a lot more of a "community" if folks would take the time to properly inform themselves before making comments. Sometimes a detail gets past even the most diligent person, but I kinda wish that there was a bit more of an open minded sharing of ideas and collaboration and a bit less of, "zomfg if I don't defend my game of choice I'll be a lesser person!!" Not saying that's what you were thinking/doing, but sometimes that's the impression I get here.

Quote:
And it's funny how you start by boasting about how WoW has more macros and then say you prefer quality over quantity.


I didn't say WoW has more macros. I said the macro script in WoW is far superior to that in FFXI for diversity and utility. Half your macro lines in FFXI are frequently taken up with /wait commands. The rest consist of slash commands that can only mimic direct activation of the spell/ability from a menu, make a gear change, or post a message to a specified channel output. WoW allows all of that functionality and a lot more. The downside is that the script for more than just basic functionality is a little more involved, which is largely offset by the fact that people who are really into writing macros will frequently post the really useful ones for a particular class/spec and describe what they do and why, and then you can cut and paste the macro from the forum (or wherever) into the game for your own use.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 5:05pm by AureliusSir
#158 Jun 30 2009 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

FFXI had keyboard functionality on the PS2 right at launch in addition to the controller-only setup. Mouse functionality on the PS2 I don't recall it having, but frankly I never missed it when I played on PS2 and never cared to when I switched to PC. While I am looking forward to improved keyboard controls (hopefully not like WoWs, as I'm not much a fan of their control setup - and yes, I tried it with an open mind before coming to conclusions about it) as FF's keyboard-only controls leave something to be desired, I would rather not see it with mouse-only critical command functions.


I apologize, I should have been more precise. What I meant to say was that the lack of a mouse (for precision selection) will always cripple consoles that use standard controllers. And that the reason that the FFXI interface was so linear was because it needed to get around the problem of only having 17 buttons. People on this forum are talking about drag and drop functionality and the like, which, with a controller, is... ok not impossible, but incredibly clunky.

I do not mean to imply that a mouseless interface is by necessity bad, or lower quality, but that by it's very nature, it will have to struggle valiantly to achieve the ease of use that mouse controlled interfaces take for granted.

The reason I mentioned the mouse and keyboard compatibility on the PS3 was because it exists, and is an option, and a potential solution to the selection problem - unlike on the PS2 where the option for a mouse just wasn't there to work with (as far as I know).


EDIT- By the way, Raymond, in regards to the Macro thing, there have been recent changes to the FFXI macro system to expand it to 20 "books" of macros each containing 200 macros (most people use one book per job). That is what he is refering to.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 7:13pm by Hulan
#159 Jun 30 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
One page = Ctrl 1-0 + Alt 1-0 = 20 macros
10 pages (20*10=200 macros) = 1 book
20 books (200*20 = 4,000 macros) = available number of macros
Macro-able command to switch between pages and books = all 4,000 macros accessible via Ctrl+Alt+1~0(Keyboard), or via L2/R2 and left and right arrows on the D-pad(PS2 Controller), or via one set of the L/R buttons (I forget if it's Trigger or Bumper) and left and right arrows on the D-pad(X360 Controller), or by two mappable buttons plus whatever directions you map to left and right on some directional object(PC/USB Controller).


The book system was put into place so that you could have completely different macro tables for each job. So you essentially have the same number for both games. No single job is ever going to use 200 macros realistically in either game as well.

The point here is we're talking about the limitations of 800* or 4000 macro slots as if that were important at all. It's not simply because in either game you'll never hit that number. The 6 line limitation in FFXI is one that is worth talking about. The relative difficulty for most players to design their own scripts in WoW is a draw back worth talking about.


* Each macro in WoW can have up to 4 macro modifiers (or is it more? alt, ctrl, right-click, click, shift?, and hover?) So really each of those 200 macro slots could be 800 or more if my memory is failing me.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 5:12pm by baelnic
#160 Jun 30 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Volkai wrote:

Hunh. By the tenth plus time, I was taking a Chocobo and thumbing my nose at Bloodtear Bald-whateverhislastnameis. But then, the first time I went to Valk to PT I set my Home Point there and didn't leave 'til I was level 20 and had Support Job access unlocked. Then I went to Jeuno (thanks to the assistance of a more experience adventurer who stealthed me there) and got my Chocobo License. THEN I went back and started leveling my first subjob.

I love Chocobos.


I love them too. Obviously you weren't playing when the game was first released in NA, though. And you weren't choco'ing back to the Dunes on your level 10 sub (can you do that now?).

I didn't always have long blocks of time to play, and there wasn't a lot to do in the Dunes as a under-lvl20 solo player, so I'd trek back to La Thiene to solo some EP and pray that I didn't die getting there. Hey, I dinged - back to the city to get some new gear or spells, unload crystals on the AH, etc. Maybe do some crafting or fishing while I'm there. Fifteen minutes back to my little area in the Plateau where I was soloing. Then at the end of my time, walk back to Selbina so that I'll be ready to party next time I log on. At least 30 minutes of my time on days that I couldn't party was spent walking. Not playing, not doing something fun - walking.

For every single job that I leveled...

Yay atmosphere!!!

Yes, I kept playing, because there were parts of the game that were fantastic. Fishing, crafting, BCNMs, outpost battles, etc. But, seeing people defend the weaker parts of FFXI is really sad, much like some of those older posts in the FFXI feedback forum that would blast people asking for nomad mogs in Selbina, or lowered level restrictions on outpost warps.

This thread is much the same way. As has been pointed out multiple times, if you wanted, you could make your WoW UI look almost identical to XI's, except with much improved macro functionality. But nooo, adopting something like that would make XIV "like the rest of the sheep".

Atmosphere does not have to equal keeping things that seemed like a good idea seven years ago.

#161 Jun 30 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I like those interfaces much more. Though tbh, i like the fact that you can customize some of those much more then their baseline layout.

Quote:
I tried to get a good mixture in there, but the list of things doesn't just stop there. Things like exp bars, chat logs, compasses and much much more follow this same old style, and frankly it's just dull and repetitive.


dress it up as much as you like, they all have to do the same basic thing. Show player hp / mp. Show macros / skills. Show mini map of some kind. These are basics that pretty fundamental in mmo mechanics - you need to know how much hp/mp or w/e you character has. You need to know what skills your have bound to where (or a place to click them) and it is really darn handy to know what is in the immediate area.

I understand that you find it repetitive, but really the are a rather neccessity in these type of games. Dress them up however you want, they all have the same basic format, and for a good reason :P

Quote:
So well my point is, if SE stupidly followed this herd, although I'm sure it's not likely, would you still be interested in FF14, because I know I wont.


Story and content will always be the deciding factor for me. Ideally, i would love every UI to be customizable so that if i do not like it i can change it. That does not always happen, and tbh i hated ffxi's interface, it was very clunky to me. But i still played the game, still enjoyed the game, because of the content.
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#162 Jun 30 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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A combination of WoWs macro system and Windowers macro system would be best. Przu. (Unless WoW's includes everything Windowers does, which it might.)

Don't know if I want to include spellcast in that statement though..
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#163 Jun 30 2009 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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http://www.wowwiki.com/Making_a_macro

A guide to WoW's macro system, for those interested in learning about it.
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#164 Jun 30 2009 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I made a post about the user interface before and I think the USER interface in FFXI is horrible.

Theres nothing original about FFXI's interface. NOTHING. And its not mindless clicking in WoW or Age of Conan. Really sometimes I think people critique WoW even when they haven't played it. Theres for more abilities in the game and it requires far more thinking to use all of them efficentley in a battle. And sure your clicking (though, I just used macros), but your not doing anything much different in FFXI either. Infact the only thing FFXI does is force you to go through a menu to get to your spells and ect. And you can used macros but the macros arent just 'one button' press away like a macro should be, there two buttons press away, you got to hold CTRL first.

I don't see anything to like about FFXI's UI. FFXI has map in the corner just like all the other ones, only FFXI's map is completely useless, unlike the other ones.
And the buttons are ugly as ****. Theres nothing nice about them and the other things you can change them to are worse.

Anyways the battle menu and macros are my two biggest Peeves. I want ONE button macros. And I want a battle system that isn't like searching for files on window explorer.

I don't care how they do it, they don't have to copy wow. But they got to do something about it. FFXI's UI was one of its biggest weaknesses. The status quo is unacceptable.

And btw, why does everyone copys wow's UI? Because it works and it works very well. Why do people NOT copy FFXI's UI? because it sucks, terribley.
#165 Jun 30 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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Things I feel need to change:

- Movable/Scalable Elements: I think everyone pretty much agrees on this. The inability to customize the layout is one of FFXI's biggest UI drawbacks.
- Multiple chat boxes w/ individual filters: Sure would be nice to separate /p chat from all that combat spam now, wouldn't it?
- Less Confirmation Messages: Are you sure? Really sure? Positive? OK? You sure? *brain explodes*

Things I'd like to see change:

- A more robust macro system: Another one I'm sure we can all agree on. While the current one is functional, it could be much improved. An offline editor would be a nice addition, too.
- More options for text color/size: While the size thing isn't something I'd personally use, being able to visually differentiate what status effects just wore off whom would be great.
- Duration Indicators for Status Effects: Simple. Even if it wasn't terribly accurate (say, 5 second intervals), it'd be a nice addition.

Things I'd like to see stay the same:

- Visual style: The look of FFXI's UI is the cleanest and most professional-looking of any MMO I've played. I'd really like to see FFXIV continue that.
- "Player Only" Status Indicators: One of the things that I like (that I'm sure a lot of other people hate) is not knowing what status effects anyone but myself has active.

I'm sure there's a lot of stuff I'm forgetting, but I think those are the major ones.
#166 Jun 30 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I'd be one of the people that dislike not knowing what my party members have for buffs. Or, well, not knowing just about anything about my party members aside from hp and mp. It'd be nice to know stuff like tp so you don't have to spam macros. And buffs would be nice, espcially for the buffing classes.
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Other: Saraah (63 BE Paladin)
Raymund (47 Troll Hunter)

FFXI - Carbuncle <RETIRED>
Raymund - 45 DRG, 42 PLD, 26 BLU, 30 RNG, 1 NIN <- I miss you Buster!
#167 Jun 30 2009 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And I want a battle system that isn't like searching for files on window explorer.


I laughed at how terribly accurate this comment actually was. I seriously hope SE learned from this mistake, and I agree with you.

One other thing I'd like to see change that no one really mentioned is have the party interface look more like the 'party screen' in the older FFs. Maybe with a small artful (drawn) portrait next to each persons bars/stats, like in FF7, FF8, etc. You could then right click these portraits to trade with, whisper, rate up/down, and inspect that person. I think it would be a great and functional throwback to the older games.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 12:42am by Kharmageddon
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#168 Jun 30 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Volkai wrote:
Yeah, except you're wrong. But whatever.

Except I'm completely and 100% correct. If you don't understand how using an ability every 2 seconds to one shot a mob at most is shorter than whatever amount of time it takes you to engage and disengage a mob in FFXI, then I can't really help you. If you can't see how utterly pointless it is to compare the amount of time it takes a max level player to one shot level ones when comparing game activity, then I really can't help you. You're a pretty haughty person trying to pass a "except you're wrong," comment when you're so completely and categorically incorrect.

Volkai wrote:
Allegory wrote:
Volkai wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Good WoW players don't click to activate abilities in combat.
Do you have a better sound effect for someone hitting keys on a keyboard?

You can access abilities faster than by clicking. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but it does affect your DPS when you're using abilities .1 second faster every 1.5 seconds. It can also mean the difference between a dead tank and a living one.
Faster than by pressing a key on your keyboard? I'm intrigued, how so?

You don't see to understand English very well. Both Aurelius and I are saying that keyboards are faster than mouse clicking. You acknowledged this is your first reply, so I'm perplexed--perplexed but not surprised--as to how you then somehow thought we were asserting that clicking was faster than pressing keys on the keyboard.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 1:46am by Allegory
#169 Jun 30 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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baelnic wrote:
The relative difficulty for most players to design their own scripts in WoW is a draw back worth talking about.

It's a trade of ease of use for robustness. SE could choose to implement a default, intuitive macro system with the option for players to change to the full scripting language if they required something more powerful.
#170 Jun 30 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Raymund wrote:
200 macros per job!? How!?

And as I said, as far as I know there's still only 200 available macros spots. Where is this 4000 coming from?
One page = Ctrl 1-0 + Alt 1-0 = 20 macros
10 pages (20*10=200 macros) = 1 book
20 books (200*20 = 4,000 macros) = available number of macros
4,000 macros / 20 jobs = 200 macros per job.

They added the macro books several months ago. Quite nice.
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#171 Jul 01 2009 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Volkai wrote:
Allegory wrote:
Volkai wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Good WoW players don't click to activate abilities in combat.
Do you have a better sound effect for someone hitting keys on a keyboard?

You can access abilities faster than by clicking. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but it does affect your DPS when you're using abilities .1 second faster every 1.5 seconds. It can also mean the difference between a dead tank and a living one.
Faster than by pressing a key on your keyboard? I'm intrigued, how so?

You don't see to understand English very well. Both Aurelius and I are saying that keyboards are faster than mouse clicking. You acknowledged this is your first reply, so I'm perplexed--perplexed but not surprised--as to how you then somehow thought we were asserting that clicking was faster than pressing keys on the keyboard.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 1:46am by Allegory
Oh, I understand English perfectly fine. Your personal attacks are wearing on me a bit, so if I seem touchy here that's why. What I was getting at was that 'click click click' could be the sound of someone pressing keys on a keyboard instead of clicking a mouse. This is why I said "Do you have a better sound effect for someone hitting keys on a keyboard?" I'm still waiting for an answer to that. When the reply to 'someone hitting keys on a keyboard' was 'faster than clicking', I chose to reply as though you had understood what I meant when I said 'someone hitting keys on a keyboard' because I thought that would be more entertaining to readers of the thread than "I already know hitting keyboard keys is faster than clicking with a mouse. It's been stated before in this thread - multiple times, I believe - and even if it hadn't I've experienced that first hand. So, once again, do you have a better sound effect than 'click' for someone pressing keys on a keyboard?"

Allegory wrote:
Except I'm completely and 100% correct. If you don't understand how using an ability every 2 seconds to one shot a mob at most is shorter than whatever amount of time it takes you to engage and disengage a mob in FFXI, then I can't really help you. If you can't see how utterly pointless it is to compare the amount of time it takes a max level player to one shot level ones when comparing game activity, then I really can't help you. You're a pretty haughty person trying to pass a "except you're wrong," comment when you're so completely and categorically incorrect.
I am at a loss for words.
Huh.

Well then.


I think I've been reminded of why I stopped posting on Allakazham for so long. Too many people like you.




I'm done with this thread, possibly with this forum. If you want to have a reasonable discussion - well, by 'you' I mean most of the posters, it's clearly impossible to do so with Allegory - then I'll be on Eorzeapedia.
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#172 Jul 01 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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Volkai wrote:

I'm done with this thread, possibly with this forum. If you want to have a reasonable discussion - well, by 'you' I mean most of the posters, it's clearly impossible to do so with Allegory - then I'll be on Eorzeapedia.


If you want to take your ball and go home, I'm not going to try and stop you. Alla/ZAM is an odd beast. You don't have to be right all the time or hold the popular opinion...you just can't afford to be wrong. If you make statements that aren't grounded in fact, you'll get called on it. You made a comment about not having found the macro interface in WoW despite '22 levels', a whopping fourteen of those having been taught by a more experienced adventurer. Someone with a fair bit more experience with the game than you pointed out your oversight and it became an issue. Easiest thing would have been to leave it alone. You allowed it to become an issue, and now you're running off to where the meanies can't get you.

Welcome to the wyld, wyld intartoobz.
#173 Jul 01 2009 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Volkai wrote:

I'm done with this thread, possibly with this forum. If you want to have a reasonable discussion - well, by 'you' I mean most of the posters, it's clearly impossible to do so with Allegory - then I'll be on Eorzeapedia.


If you want to take your ball and go home, I'm not going to try and stop you. Alla/ZAM is an odd beast. You don't have to be right all the time or hold the popular opinion...you just can't afford to be wrong. If you make statements that aren't grounded in fact, you'll get called on it. You made a comment about not having found the macro interface in WoW despite '22 levels', a whopping fourteen of those having been taught by a more experienced adventurer. Someone with a fair bit more experience with the game than you pointed out your oversight and it became an issue. Easiest thing would have been to leave it alone. You allowed it to become an issue, and now you're running off to where the meanies can't get you.

Welcome to the wyld, wyld intartoobz.
Alright, one more post.

My issue is not disagreement, it's accusations haughtiness, of being disingenuous (when I was in fact being quite earnest) and insults to my intelligence when you completely fail to read what I've posted... the generally hostile attitude you in particular have presented to me.
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#174 Jul 01 2009 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Volkai wrote:
What I was getting at was that 'click click click' could be the sound of someone pressing keys on a keyboard instead of clicking a mouse.

Well that my mistake then. I assumed you were sarcastically contesting his point rather than telling a joke.
Volkai wrote:
"I already know hitting keyboard keys is faster than clicking with a mouse. It's been stated before in this thread - multiple times, I believe - and even if it hadn't I've experienced that first hand.

To be pedantic, you never explicitly said this.
Volkai wrote:
I think I've been reminded of why I stopped posting on Allakazham for so long. Too many people like you.

If you're going to avoid every situation where someone points out a mistake, then you're going to be walking away most of your life. Everyone screws up. I ***** up, you ***** up, Aurelius screws up, The staff site screws up, but we all get a choice in how we react to that.

I've been rude to you, but you've really have been begging for it. You originally didn't understand that the WoW and FFXI macro system function extremely similarly. You said FFXI macros were vastly superior, but then revealed that you didn't know how to use or even access the WoW macros from the main menu. You try to win a question of activity ratio on the basis of a technicality even when you're still technically wrong. To top it all off, you pretend there is something wrong with the community here and feign superiority. I don't feel unjustified in being rude to someone who behaves in such a horrid manner.
Volkai wrote:
I'm done with this thread, possibly with this forum.

It's your choice. I can't say I won't be thinking "Good riddance to bad posting," if you leave.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 3:36am by Allegory
#175 Jul 01 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Good
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I suppose there's such a conflict of opinion on the subject of the UI that I might as well just throw me 2 cents in and hope someone agrees haha -

First, I hated FF's UI in comparison to other MMOs, it was clunky, unwieldy, didn't show enough information without tweaks, macros or illegal addons (cooldowns for one, party TP, that kind of thing), it just sucked horribly for me and I'm all for it changing.

My main concern about this is that it ends up geared too much for use with a gamepad. Sorry, but MMOs generally play better with a keyboard and mouse, or at the very least a keyboard. The fact that most new users (who on the whole don't really know how or want to program a bunch of macros) were forced in XI to navigate through a convoluted menu system from a turn based RPG in realtime in order to use their abilities, is probably the only justification for such a godawfully slow combat system.
So really I just hope they recognise it's gonna require at least a keyboard anyway (if only for chat purposes) and the PS3 supporting any old USB keyboard as an input device leaves them no excuse to avoid making it too controller-oriented.

I'll stand by that movement was cool with a controller though - on PC I'd normally use a PS2 controller for travel and day to day running about then switch to keyboard for battle - but then I did that on WoW, Rappelz and other games too and the transition was far more fluid. Playing FFXI on 360 I immediately got a keyboard off a mate and started using that for combat. I found though that straight away I was creating macros, and although I appreciate they're essential for boss encounters and party play, beating solo trash mobs you should just be able to click abilities fast.
#176 Jul 01 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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Parade wrote:
My reply and complaint to that would be that in other games when the chat box is a lot smaller I feel taken away from the communication aspects of the game. With the larger chat box I feel as though it is easy to communicate and I don't miss tells and conversations as I do with other MMOs.

Also I would rather have my UI not cluttered with 50 powers/spells like in others MMOs


I agree. The few times I've played other MMOs besides FFXI, I missed /tells quite often, and the text in general felt secondary, quick, and ignorable.

Your second statement I especially like: I don't need pictures for each one of my spells, that's just a waste of space; I don't need a portrait of my character near my health bar, I know what I look like, that's just a waste of space.
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#177 Jul 01 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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You can hide the stupid bars in WoW you know! You don't need to show 50 spells at a time. Nobody's putting a gun to your head and forcing you to show em all if you know what buttons to press to activate the moves.

As for the chat box, it too is custimizable. You can make it as big or small as you want. You can probably change text size, I'm not sure, and I think you an change text color. And more importantly, you get more than 1 so you don't miss tells or guild chat because the combat text scrolled the screen too fast.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 11:41pm by Raymund
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#178 Jul 02 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Default
10 posts
I played FFXI on my PC with a controller.

In my opinion that made it A) Feel like a Final Fantasy game and not and EverQuest clone and B) made the UI much easier to handle. WIth a mouse I found it cumbersome, but with the controller in hand, the L/R buttons and the equivalent of "Square" made it incredibly intuitive.

I hope the UI in '14 is somewhat like '12, but with the obvious interactivity necessary for an online game. In '12, since you are the sole controller of the pary, I guess switching between party members would be replaced by targeting other party members and the leader would be, well the leader! No switching without group concensus!
#179ffdarknight, Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 8:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I have been Whitemage for 5 years and the UI of FFXI is just right for me. If you can't work with an 18 members alliance, you're doing something wrong. Go get some skills.
#180 Jul 02 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Default
4 posts
Quote:

If I can't figure out how to access it by the time I'm level 22, when I've been shown the ropes by an experienced player (up to level 14) and been exploring both the game and the UI for a good 20-30 hours, then it isn't exactly easy/intuitive to access, now is it? Besides which, I cannot in good conscience include into my analysis something I have neither touched nor seen - the same reason I don't involve Spellcast or out-of-game macro editing in my analysis of FFXI macros.


Menu > Macros

If you didn't notice this after 20-30 hours, it is due to your own retardation.

The fact of the matter is, WoW and FFXI are vastly different games, and a menu based UI would never work in WoW. It would just be too slow to be effective. WoW's UI on the other hand is infinitely customizable. If you were so inclined, you could set it up to mimic FFXI's. Nobody would ever do this because it would fail, but it is possible.

Say whatever you like about WoW, but it has the best UI of any MMO to date.
#181 Jul 02 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
2 posts
I hope there is support for a keyboard only style. If people like clicking dozens of icons to do all of their stuff, then that is fine, but I don't want to.

My favorite setup was FFXI with the unofficial windower. You could design macros on any key you wanted (alt-s for example, instead of only 0-9). With this, I felt very integrated into the game. I moved my character around in the same place that I used abilities - in the same place that I chatted, the keyboard.

Keeping both hands on the keyboard encourages chat and thus community togetherness. On that note, I hope they leave in an option for a large chat window like FFXI had, or at least somehow bring focus to the chat window. If it is a pain to read, or a distraction to type, we lose a valuable amount of communication.

I do feel that the targeting system was lacking. It was very easy to target your party members (F1-F6), but targeting alliance members was clunky at best. Once again, you could use the unofficial windower to setup shortcuts for those (Ctrl-F1-F6, Alt-F1-F6), and that setup was intuitive. However they do it, I hope targeting alliance (or what have you) members is easy, and more importantly, quick.

Also, losing your target for silly reasons like equipment swaps is just annoying and pointless.

My 2 cents,
Bingo
#182 Jul 02 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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2,824 posts
Quote:
I hope there is support for a keyboard only style. If people like clicking dozens of icons to do all of their stuff, then that is fine, but I don't want to.


I agree with one exception. Camera control is better handled through a mouse when using a computer. The analog sticks on the psx controller are great too, but for PC players you need to mouse to handle camera control.
#183 Jul 02 2009 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
3 posts
I just have to point out the irony in this whole thread and the op's point. First off WoW is the first MMO to allow custom mods to change the UI. Meaning with ingenuity and just even average intelligence. You can make the UI look however you want it to.

So in this aspect I hope every and all MMOs do copy. The static packaged UI is irrelevant at this point. Since anyone with a semblance of intelligence knows you can make it look like a dragon riding a pony across the bottom for a UI or you can take it and remove all UI and leave just the important stuff. You can do with it as you please.

Seriously the irony is so thick I got a headache thinking about it. How can someone who wants unique difference UIs not like WoW's system?

I don't even like WoW but to ignore this...that shows me you probably were not very good at it if you did play.

Seriously wow...
#184 Jul 02 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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baelnic wrote:
Quote:
I hope there is support for a keyboard only style. If people like clicking dozens of icons to do all of their stuff, then that is fine, but I don't want to.


I agree with one exception. Camera control is better handled through a mouse when using a computer. The analog sticks on the psx controller are great too, but for PC players you need to mouse to handle camera control.


I'd rather just have the option to use the mouse to control the camera like you could in WoW. Trying to move the camera with the mouse in ffxi was horrible.

But.. I personally liked using the arrow keys to move the camera much more than having to use a mouse. Not using a mouse at all is what, imo, made ffxi's interface set up superior.
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#185 Jul 02 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
baelnic wrote:

Quote:

I hope there is support for a keyboard only style. If people like clicking dozens of icons to do all of their stuff, then that is fine, but I don't want to.



I agree with one exception. Camera control is better handled through a mouse when using a computer. The analog sticks on the psx controller are great too, but for PC players you need to mouse to handle camera control.



I'd rather just have the option to use the mouse to control the camera like you could in WoW. Trying to move the camera with the mouse in ffxi was horrible.

But.. I personally liked using the arrow keys to move the camera much more than having to use a mouse. Not using a mouse at all is what, imo, made ffxi's interface set up superior.


Agreed, FFXI UI was far better then any other mmo, because i never ever had to touch the mouse when playing, not for camera, not for targetting and not for moving. Its take a while to get used to it at the start, but once you get it you dont want anything else.
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#186 Jul 02 2009 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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banzaii wrote:
Agreed, FFXI UI was far better then any other mmo, because i never ever had to touch the mouse when playing, not for camera, not for targetting and not for moving. Its take a while to get used to it at the start, but once you get it you dont want anything else.

You can do that in WoW and most other MMORPGs as well. It's always better to use the mouse of course, but you don't have to use it in those games either.

I don't understand why some posters feel the need to glorify limitations. The WoW UI and those of many other games are just plain better than that of FFXI. You can do everything that the FFXI menu system does and more. If I was proficient in WoW UI language I could probably make the WoW UI look and function exactly like the FFXI UI if I wanted to.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 12:07am by Allegory
#187 Jul 02 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
Allegory wrote:
You can do that in WoW and most other MMORPGs as well. It's always better to use the mouse of course, but you don't have to use it in those games either.

I don't understand why some posters feel the need to glorify limitations. The WoW UI and those of many other games are just plain better than that of FFXI. You can do everything that the FFXI menu system does and more. If I was proficient in WoW UI language I could probably make the WoW UI look and function exactly like the FFXI UI if I wanted to.


Sorry but moving the camera with the arrow doesnt work at all in wow, and the game wasn't designed to be able to play only with the keyboard or with keyboard and mouse. they made "keyboard only" playstyle totaly unnefficient giving us no choise but to play with the mouse. Its all a matter of oppinion i guess, but i really didnt enjoy playing MMO with the mouse compared to "keyboard only" in ffxi. and there i'm not talking about WOW, im talking about every other mmo around i played a lot, guild wars and even the recent Aion. I just hope we have the option to play without using the mouse and be as efficient as everyone.
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#188 Jul 02 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
banzaii wrote:
Agreed, FFXI UI was far better then any other mmo, because i never ever had to touch the mouse when playing, not for camera, not for targetting and not for moving. Its take a while to get used to it at the start, but once you get it you dont want anything else.


I dunno about that. FFXI was my first MMO and I got used to the all-keyboard interface. As I tried other MMOs and got used to the mouse + keyboard option, I found it to be a far superior option if for nothing other than speed. I've come to prefer tanking in MMOs and there is absolutely no way the FFXI all-keyboard interface can provide the speed and accuracy of camera movement that can be offered by a mouse. A keypress is a binary function...the key is pressed or it's not, and then you're relying on the preset camera speed and extremely rigid scope of tilting and panning. With a mouse, you can move your view slowly with a slow mouse movement, quickly with a fast movement, and you can adjust your camera to any angle in a far more intuitive way than with a keyboard. When we're talking about a game announced to included larger battles with multiple targets, a tank is well served to have almost instant access to view any part of the field at any time. Can't do that nearly so well with a keyboard.

Of course, there remains the option in other MMOs to use the keyboard to adjust your camera settings as an alternative to using the mouse. Few people use those options, however, because the mouse just plain works better for the purpose. You still get people who turn with the keyboard, and multiple online comics have been devoted to mocking said "keyboard turners". If SE follows through on their stated desire to have the combat mechanics in FFXIV "more closely resemble the real-time battles you see in other MMOs," quick performance will be more of a concern than it was in FFXI, and that ideally means leveraging all of the tools available to you to stay on top of a situation before it overwhelms you.


Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 10:23pm by AureliusSir
#189 Jul 02 2009 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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banzaii wrote:
Sorry but moving the camera with the arrow doesnt work at all in wow, and the game wasn't designed to be able to play only with the keyboard or with keyboard and mouse.

That's a somewhat laughable comment. WoW was designed with the express intention of playing with both the keyboard and mouse. To say that it wasn't is completely in contradiction with the reality of how the game is played. I never tried to play WoW with the keyboard alone, so I'm not certain what problems one might encounter, but I'm sure it can't be much worse than trying to play FFXI with just the keyboard. Mouse alone is also an option, but still awkward.
banzaii wrote:
they made "keyboard only" playstyle totaly unnefficient giving us no choise but to play with the mouse... I just hope we have the option to play without using the mouse and be as efficient as everyone.

It's a little disingenuous to use a plural here. In all my years of posting on this board and several other MMO boards, and in all my years of playing, you are the very first person I have ever met to use the keyboard only. I'm sure you're not the only person, but honestly you're a part of a very, very, very small minority.

Typically, games should be designed to provide the most utility to the most people.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 12:44am by Allegory
#190 Jul 02 2009 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
"we" so you all out there can enjoy playing with the mouse while few of us can just use the keyboard. so we can all enjoy the game together! ya for serious.

but anyway, the problem in wow is that you can fix button to move the camera on the keyboard, the arrow does the same thing as the ASDW button. If i remember correctly cause its been a while i played wow, a game that i did enjoy too. in Aion there is the same problem, arrow make the character move instead of the camera, and there is no way to change the control to put the movement camera on the arrow. i would just like the unefficent keyboard only even only the time im playing solo for myself and use the more efficient way mouse when i really need to, for group and stuff.. but the game just dont allow that anymore.

another thing i enjoy with ffxi is the small compact pt box and the big log screen, but that might be just me. its easyer to see the HP/MP of the whole group when its all compacted, easely fix with addon in wow, but i would rater not having to use addon for something the interface could just do as well if not better. and the big log screen... just cause i like them big and easy to read. if its not by default, they should at least let me put it the size i want.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 1:57am by banzaii
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#191 Jul 03 2009 at 3:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I too like FFXI's minimalistic interface. It got everything you need right there.
For FFXIV that won't be enough though. It would need improvements on all ends but the menu together with a beefed up macro system would make a nice, slender UI.

As someone already mentioned seperate windows for battle messages and chat would be nice.

About the UI being freely configurable (WoW like) by the player...
I'm not sure if this would be a good thing to do ignoring the fact that custom plugins might not work for consoles.
If it would be possible to change or turn on/off elements of the UI, like for example colors or if the macro bar is visible all the time or not and such stuff, that would be enough customization for me.

One thing I'd really like to stay the way it is in FFXI is the camera and movement and that everything can be done with just the keyboard if you want to.

Quote:
Anyways the battle menu and macros are my two biggest Peeves. I want ONE button macros.

If they make the interface in a way so you can handle it with a console controler then I doubt that will be possible.
They would have to make a seperate interface for the PC version then...

Quote:
And btw, why does everyone copys wow's UI? Because it works and it works very well. Why do people NOT copy FFXI's UI? because it sucks, terribley.

WoW never was a RPG but a PC strategy game before and it's interface isn't all new either.
Also it doesn't run on consoles and I never tried playing it with a controler.
FF has been a single player RPG before and most if not all RPGs used and still use a similar system.

A bit off topic but...
It's true that FFXI is slow in every aspect except your char getting killed which can happen quite fast at times.
But it sure feels like the world is big if you can't run through a zone in 1 minute or teleport everywhere. A city wouldn't feel like one if you could get from one end to the other faster than a chocobo.
Traveling is a major part of any RPG and adds to the atmosphere.
I'm not saying "keep it slow by all means" just don't overdo it.
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#192 Jul 03 2009 at 3:18 AM Rating: Decent
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RidingBean wrote:
About the UI being freely configurable (WoW like) by the player...
I'm not sure if this would be a good thing to do ignoring the fact that custom plugins might not work for consoles.

I think it should be allowed, but that the game not be designed with it as a necessity. I think it would be a very bad idea to force unnecessary console limitations onto pc users. So long as these custom plugins are not required for consoles users to effectively play the game I see no reason not to allow them for pc users.
RidingBean wrote:
If they make the interface in a way so you can handle it with a console controler then I doubt that will be possible.
They would have to make a seperate interface for the PC version then...

I'd be happy with that if that is what it takes. I'd apply the same logic as with the custom plugins. Don't hold pc users back because of console limitations, but don't design a game that requires beyond console functionality.

RidingBean wrote:
WoW never was a RPG but a PC strategy game before and it's interface isn't all new either.

RidingBean wrote:
But it sure feels like the world is big if you can't run through a zone in 1 minute or teleport everywhere. A city wouldn't feel like one if you could get from one end to the other faster than a chocobo.

My opinion is that this is half an issue of actually teleporting and half an issue of content richness.

I don't think teleporting absolutely everywhere is a good idea, but there are times and places when it is appropriate. I think the problem is not how much teleporting should eb in the game, but aligning the the situations where teleporting is available with the situations where teleporting is required. Otherwise you're just arguing over whether it's better to make a type 1 or type 2 error.

Players should be able to teleport to bypass unrich content areas and not be able to teleport when they have to cross content rich areas. By "rich content areas," I mean places where the player can do, see, or experience something fun and meaningful.

If the zone between me and my destination is a barren desert with nothing to see and nothing I want to kill, then I should be able to teleport or fast travel to my destination. Making me cross the desert is only wasting my time. However, if the zone I must cross is full of content, then I should be forced to cross it. Content could be amazing sites to see, it could be a monster group that ambushes my party as we head to our destination, it could be a platform/puzzle challenge we have to work out on our way, it could be anything fun and interesting.

I should always be doing something fun and interesting in a game. If I'm forced to do something that is not fun or interesting then that activity should be removed or bypassable.
#193 Jul 03 2009 at 3:29 AM Rating: Good
11 posts
I feel that WoW should only be copied in that they allow UI Mods. (I'm assuming, of course, that FFXI still does not. Haven't played in years.) That or make the UI way more customizable. Maybe they could implement a system where mods are approved by Square or Sony and make them available on the Playstation store for console players.
#194 Jul 04 2009 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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AureliusSir wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
And conversely, I can't see why someone would want to play a game where voluntary actions frequently occur at such large intervals.
So you can take time to think about what you're doing next instead of feeling rushed.


*in Peter Griffin voice*

"Geez..that monster sure is ugly. I wonder if I...noooo...should I? Noooo...well maybe. Should I cast a spell? Should...should I cast a spell? What do you guys think? Should I cast a spell? Or should I hit it with something? Hey...any of you guys have an extra stick? I forgot mine. Ya...a stick. God these pants are tight...I can hardly move. Should I maybe change my pants to something more comfortable? It's hard to fight in these things..."

What is there to think about? Observe, assess, execute.


I would prefer a more strategic system to a twitchy system. Some more like chess and less of a button masher. There is already quite a bit to think about in the more interesting encounters. Oops, we got more monsters than we wanted to. Are we sleeping the adds, kiting them, splitting up into small groups to take them on in parallel? Should I cast a cure now or use flash to buy some time? The tank is in bad shape, will the healer cure in time or should someone voke off the tank? Would a voke even pull hate? Should I stun to save the tank at the cost of damage or will the tank be ok without that? Are we going to zerg this monster down or whittle it down to make TP attacks more manageable?

Overall, I'd like to see more balance in the activity rates across jobs. Mages in FFXI have a pace that varies from fast to moderate compared to what I'd like. Melee jobs in FFXI have a pace from ridiculously slow to somewhat slow. I think melee jobs need more abilities than FFXI gave them.

I'd like to see more complexity via interactions between choices, especially between choices by different players. Skillchains were an interesting start at this, but they aren't terribly effective in many situations and really only affect one aspect of a battle. SATA setups are another example of complexity in a party setting from FFXI. I'd like to see more interactions between what the party members do, but it should be flexible enough that you can play off what the other people are doing even if they aren't trying to cooperate with you.

One advantage of a slower pace that I think is absolutely critical, is that a slower pace lets you type messages during combat. I think the ability to chat during combat and suggest strategies / give orders dramatically adds to the community aspects of FFXI. I think if the pace quickens, the game should have a voice chat system to compensate. If there is a voice chat system, I'd like to see at least the pitch adjusted to match the character so I'm not listening to double bass from female tarutaru.
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