Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

PvP Content and YouFollow

#1 Jun 19 2009 at 6:58 AM Rating: Decent
*
230 posts
So, here we are, twiddling our thumbs and eagerly waiting for scraps of information like hungry dogs by a dinner table. Well, let's feast on this little morsel, shall we?

Quote:
The interviewer also brought up PKing and PvP, to which the developers responded they were considering options for the latter. They explain that while the game will involve cooperation, this does not necessarily always mean party vs. monster. Still, they say PvP will more likely take a shape similar to Final Fantasy XI, and they seem to shy away from allowing players to simply fight and kill each other anywhere, worrying it could lead to monopolization of content.


So, do you think that whatever limited PvP content makes its way into the game will be a replica of the same PvP "games" (for lack of a better term) found in FFXI? How would you design a PvP system involving classes balanced purely for PvE without stomping on fragile egos? I'm very curious to see what kind of new things they can do without homogenizing different paths.

Discuss.

edit: Fine, I'll start.

If done right, the classes will be balanced to support each other in group efforts. Heals, buffs, whatever. If the community is comprised mostly of non-retarded gamers (read: healers who understand they're not going to be damage dealers), I don't see a problem with pitting groups of players against one another. The one thing I can take away from WoW's PvP system is that goal-oriented PvP is much more engaging than world PvP. Themed battlegrounds, if done right, can provide hours of engaging and competitive content. Here's what I'd love to see:

'The Last Defender' - Two groups of players are pitted against a legion of monsters. Each group is defending a single crystal. The first group to lose the crystal to the enemies loses. It'd be an interesting way to not only benchmark various group set ups, but to competitively see who can defend something the longest. Maybe not even make it something, but SOMEONE - one of many selectable NPCs that provides aid to the party in different ways. Eh?

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 11:14am by Kharmageddon
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#2 Jun 19 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
*
192 posts
Heck, I think anything more flexible than "you kill those guys" would be an awesome addition. I'm not a big PVP fan, but I find if the game is temporal and good spirited enough you can get around a lot of the intense unpleasantness I usually associated with PVP.

On the PvE note, maybe actually use that for some fun competitive events? A two party race to get to the center of a dungeon and deal the most damage to the boss/kill it first?

Maybe something akin to some Tower Defense maps, where the two teams are seperate, and every enemy successfully defeated becomes tokens used to buy enemies to send at the other team?

Those aren't traditional PVP, I know, but...
____________________________
The Other Castle
#3 Jun 19 2009 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Quote:
Maybe something akin to some Tower Defense maps, where the two teams are seperate, and every enemy successfully defeated becomes tokens used to buy enemies to send at the other team?


Now we're talking!
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#4 Jun 19 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent
31 posts
I prefer the system that SE established in FF XI. PvP tended to be friendly in FF XI. Actually, I made a lot of friends through PvP. Though I have not played PvP content in other games (except for a few brushes with it in my short time spent in WoW) but, if others' experiences hold true, PvP tends to be a bad experience when implemented on a large scale. I would not want a homogenization of the classes and definitely prefer the feeling that ballista provided me when I participated in the events.

Edit: Can someone point me to examples of how PvP is implemented in other games? Current MMO's.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 11:15am by Dappunisher
#5 Jun 19 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
209 posts
When I first heard of this game I was really wanting open PvP, but after reading several interviews it's become more apparent that it either
1.) Won't happen
2.) Won't happen immediately (available in an update)
3.) Will happen eventually, but won't be open PvP. Might be different than PvP has been done in the past.

What I would like:
Open PvP
OR
Arena/area based PvP
AND/OR
Guild/Linkshell PvP

Now, I quit FFXI before the PvP update came out, but I really wish I was able to participate in it. So I don't know much about how PvP worked in FFXI.

The biggest complaint I hear is balancing classes in PvP in FFXI, since it has so many.
The reason I really like the idea of team/guild PvP is that it requires teamwork and planning. That kind of thing can really bind members together...more than just partying for monsters can.

Anyway, while I am doubtful that open PvP will ever happen in FFXIV it is nice to imagine.

They say "monopolization of content". Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of the posts I have been reading about "Changes we want to see from FFXI to FFXIV was competing over monters and whatnot.
I actually think that open PvP would help solve this problem.

Okay, so you have 3 strong people who are waiting for an NM to appear and they are willing to kill anyone who gets in their way? What are you going to do?
1.) Whine and do nothing?
2.) Try to fight them yourself?
3.) Get your friends together and do battle!?

Three sounds like the most logical and fun option to me.

Now, granted, I have not always played the PK game my entire life. I've played PvE MMORPGs before and when I first decided to join a server where PvP was available I was very nervous that everyone would just be killing everyone left and right and there would be constant flame wars.

And to my surprise it was nothing like that. MOST of the people who PvP'ed with me were nice people who didn't bash others or rub it in their face. We PKed for fun, not for gloating about 'being better'.
(Okay that got off topic fast but I wanted to make a point)

PKing shouldn't be about being the best or 'better' than your opponent. It should just be about having fun and enjoying yourself.

Anyway, I feel that PvP can do things for players that PvE cannot. PvP helps players coordinate better and become closer. There is a big difference between fighting an AI monster where you can look up their stats and skills online or know their patterns, and a human player or group of players.
This is why I especially would like to see some guild/linkshell PvP. I like the idea of guilds being more heavily integrated into the game mechanics, rather than just being social or getting together for groups.
(Unless what linkshell were in 2004 have changed greatly from then to 2009).

Open PvP also heightens your awareness when partying and removes the annoying camping for mobs for hours with 30 other people hoping you'll be the lucky one to get it. Now, fighting over mobs could be a group effort, making everyone in the game closer to each other. You know, bonds and attachments and that stuff.
Fighting in the wilderness no longer has to be boring an monotonous when you need to keep your eyes peeled and fight off PKers at the same time.

And when you get bored of fighting monsters, go on a lone PK spree or get a group of friends together and wage PK wars on other groups. :-D (Okay that's just a FFXIV dream of mine that will probably never happen)

Anyway, after a long post, probably my longest since joining the forum, I believe that PvP is a great option.
So I have a final suggestion to SE, which will probably not happen (not like they'd ever heard it) but I will throw it out there anyway.

At the start of the game, open 3 different TYPES of servers.
An open PvP server.
A PvP optional server (you can turn the PvP option on or off and can only fight others with it on.) This way players who want to PvP one day can, and relax and fight monsters another day without worrying about getting jumped.
A PvE only server (maybe with an arena style PvE.)

Updating servers later wouldn't work in this manner because people might not like the choice of that server and also wouldn't want to leave their friends to move to a server with/without PvP.

I do, however, understand that with so many classes it would be quite a chore to "balance" them all. (In quote because different people have different ideas of what "balanced" means.)

Anyway (this is the last thing, I promise), while I would like to see Open PvP or at least guild PvP in FFXIV, I won't be devastated if it never happens. You won't see me running around FFXIV shouting "This game is so lame! We need PvP! This sucks! It would be a million times better with PvP. Come on SE, you carebears! Give us PvP. What a stupid game!"
I'm fine with it either way. PvP is just a bonus for me...just added game content. If I was so unhappy about it, I just wouldn't play.

That is just my 2 cents dollars.

EDIT:

Quote:
Edit: Can someone point me to examples of how PvP is implemented in other games? Current MMO's.


I've never played WoW, but I'll give an example of one game with PvP:
Perfect World.
In the closed beta it was mandatory open PvP. I was really nervous because it was my first PvP game outside of an arena. But I made a lot of friends in a great guild and we PvPed a lot.
I ended up falling in love with it and on the last day of the CB I racked up over 40 hours of PK penalty (red name). It was great...ANYWAY.
In open beta I joined a PvP optional server (just called PvE) where you could switch it on or off...and you had to wait at least 3 hours before turning it off once it was on (+ any PK penalty time).
When you attack or kill another player you get a 'penalty'. Your name goes from white to red, varying in shades as it gets worse. I think it maxes in darkness at 40 hours...which is a lot of people).
The worse your penalty is, the higher chance you have of dropping valuable items if you are killed. This deters people from killing relentlessly.
Gaurds at towns also kill you if you have a penalty (you can't survive a hit from a gaurd...probably no matter how strong you are).

The penalty system and the gaurds generally deter people from PKing rampantly...because if you have a red name you become a target, because other players want to get your items.
I had a friend who lost a level 60 Holy Hall sword (I think the first one created on the server) by being PKed while he had a penalty.
Anyway, I ended up quiting PW, mainly because I made the mistake of joining a PvP optional server...where 90% of the players played in PvE mode. It got very boring very fast after level 60. Also extremely expensive (dumb microtransactions).

All of that aside, the thing that I really liked about the game was the
TERRITORY WARS
Guilds can bid on a territory to fight for. If no one owns the land, the fight is against monsters. If people do own it, you fight the opposing guild. You need to destroy a crystal at their base. Each guild starts at different bases and one defends and one attacks (generally). Each guild can buy defense and attack systems like catapults and towers to aid them.
Not only does the battle itself require a lot of planning, but so does choosing which lands/guilds you want to attack. You need to form teams of people and give each team their task and instructions so you can function as a whole. It really binds the guild together.
Also, every week, the guild gets 10 million gold (unless I am forgetting) PER land that they own (Tier 3 territories at least. T2 are 20 mil and T1 are 30mil). The money is (at least in my guild) divided up amongst the players who participated in the TW that the money was earned from (using an equation based on their level at the time of the TW).
So if you own 5 T3 territories, that's 50mil every week that goes to your guild members!

So there is great incentive to TW and to join a guild. Anyway, that's how territory PvP works in Perfect World...and I would LOVE to see something like that in FFXIV.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 11:49am by Finaa
____________________________
Toasting makes me uncomfortable. But toast I love. Never start the day without a good piece of toast. In fact, let's toast to toast.
#6 Jun 19 2009 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,112 posts
I am dead set against PvP in FFXIV because I dont want to see the PvE side of the game be addled by balance changes made to fit PvP.

That said, I was just thinking about Ballista and imagine if they changed it a little so instead of using your characters stats and abilities there was just a stock set used-- as in, everyone was the same. Suddenly you've got a very tactical game where people can be hugely competitive (which is in essence the reason for PvP. Competition) and yet it will have no impact on how the PvE side of the game runs.

Their could be lots of different mini-games to pick from. One could be an attack/defend a castle job and you pick from the classic trio Archer/Mage/Warrior and again, due to stats and abilities being the same both sides it becomes more like a game of chess than an i-got-ze-epics tale. Smallish maps, maybe 10v10, fast games. Maybe it could be a system to be used instead of a card type game (or along side! Id love to see Tetra-Master IN GAME in XIV).

Id love to see PvP take the form of attractive "mini-games" that involve something outside the game's usual activities. Maybe it would be woven into the lore of the game? Maybe each "Inn" type area in the game could have a common room where adventurers go to relax and play these magically enchanted board-games (which we then subsequently control in real time as the PvP minigames).
____________________________
To endanger the soul endangers all,
when the soul is endangered it must become a Warrior.
#7 Jun 19 2009 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
*
230 posts
I've said this before in a couple other posts, but I'll say it here too.

Golden Saucer type competitions:

- Submarine minigame (submarine teams hunt down/XPLODE eachother)
- Snowboarding minigame (race to the bottom of a huge mountain!)
- chocobo races
- boxing minigame (rock/paper/scissors)
- betting/gambling
- roller coaster arcade shooter mini game

Also, an extensive in-game card game (monsters have a chance to drop a card in their likeness).

edit: i don't see a problem with SE doing a tower-defense type thing either. Anyone else remember how you get the Phoenix materia in FF7? ;)

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 11:51am by Kharmageddon
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#8 Jun 19 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Default
Repressed Memories
******
20,814 posts
Quote:
Still, they say PvP will more likely take a shape similar to Final Fantasy XI, and they seem to shy away from allowing players to simply fight and kill each other anywhere, worrying it could lead to monopolization of content.

I'll take it. Any pvp is better than no pvp.
Kharmageddon wrote:
So, do you think that whatever limited PvP content makes its way into the game will be a replica of the same PvP "games" (for lack of a better term) found in FFXI?

If you mean objective based pvp, then yes I think so. It seems to fit SE's style, and would be far more entertaining than pointless slaughter.
Kharmageddon wrote:
How would you design a PvP system involving classes balanced purely for PvE without stomping on fragile egos?

1. Honestly, the optimal solution will to always be designing the classes with pvp in mind from the start. It's simply unavoidable.

2. If you can't design with a mind for pvp, then at least don't implement pvp with a mind for pve. Abilities don't have to work exactly like they do in pvp; they can be tweaked. Provoke doesn't have to force a player to attack you in the same way it forces a mob to. Provoke can give an incentive to the player to attack you, perhaps they deal less damage to everyone else except the provoker until they hit him a certain number of times.

3. Don't make pvp highly competitive. The more casual the pvp is the less people will be worried about class balance.
#9 Jun 19 2009 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
**
257 posts
Well, tbh I would be fine with having a ballista system in place again but what I mostly wanted was a Duel System.

You can choose to duel someone and you can even put items or money up that go to the victor when the other player dies. Duels can be anywhere as well and there would be an option to turn off duel invitations too as to not have some annoying people spam you. That's all I really want but then again a full-scale PVP war would be pretty cool. Something like 12v12 instead of the normal 6v6. Maybe even linkshell vs. linkshell. ;)
____________________________
FFXI(retired 04/2006): Epedemicoptikz, Phoenix Server, 75 SAM/NIN/WAR

#10 Jun 19 2009 at 8:08 AM Rating: Excellent
*
192 posts
Kordain wrote:
Their could be lots of different mini-games to pick from...


Those all sound like awesome ideas, honestly. If we had some pre-stat'd CTF or defense style games I know I'd love to give them a try!

Kharmageddon wrote:
I've said this before in a couple other posts, but I'll say it here too.

Golden Saucer type competitions:

- Submarine minigame (submarine teams hunt down/XPLODE eachother)
- Snowboarding minigame (race to the bottom of a huge mountain!)
- chocobo races
- boxing minigame (rock/paper/scissors)
- betting/gambling
- roller coaster arcade shooter mini game

Also, an extensive in-game card game (monsters have a chance to drop a card in their likeness).

edit: i don't see a problem with SE doing a tower-defense type thing either. Anyone else remember how you get the Phoenix materia in FF7? ;)


Minigames, uff yeah! Things like this might be a little bit of a drain on dev time, but god would it be awesome to have a leisure-minded Golden Saucer-like place in Final Fantasy XIV. All the competitive PVPers could go enjoy their stuff and I'd be off snowboarding like a boss.

This kind of idea of the game world as a larger environment to enjoy in multiple ways is something I'd really like to see developed. Not having it limited so much to just a traditional MMORPG. I just feel like it would be a fun means of becoming more attached to my character if they do more rounded things that don't involve poking things with spears. ;)

I was thinking the aforementioned defense thing would all be actual in-game fighting; when your party beats up on gobbos or what have you, you get to pick out what the opposing party fights next and play for survival.

But, heck, anywhere we can fit TD is awesome too. XD
____________________________
The Other Castle
#11 Jun 19 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
49 posts
I'd like to see PvP come in a tactical defense/offense game. Something like this:

-Capture the Fort-

Battle field provides structures which must be captured by the opposing team.

Everyone is imbued with reraise for the duration of the contest.

To capture the structure a team must enter the structure and hold their ground in the capture point uncontested for 1 minute. DDs try and crack the structures barricade to enter. All the while the opposing teams ranged jobs pummel them safely from the top of the structure only taking flack from jobs with ranged capabilities. Once breach is successful the opposing teams defensive job's hold the capture point till support arrives to remove the threat. Healers run around the structure healing ranged jobs and defensive jobs and can also repair the barricade all while avoiding nasty DD's. Everyone gets to play their job and contribute to the victory. You just have to have the right structure. If your side fails to play it's strengths it will most likely loose. It's a team effort and more of a game then simple bash-doods-in-the-face-athons with that softer classes fleeing in terror like in some cases. The right structure can enable tactical games.

By providing the right structure you cut the soft targets away from immediate death and allow them to do their job, and because the offending team must hold the ground uncontested that are forced to remove defensive jobs.

This could work and would be hella-balls-to-the-walls brilliant! At least I think so. You could also easily variations of this game too this way.
#12 Jun 19 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,457 posts
hah! I saged you Khar!
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#13 Jun 19 2009 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Quote:
hah! I saged you Khar!


Way to inflate my ego! ^_^

But to stay on topic (and honor my shiny new green name), it seems like a great way to allow players to compete without having them complain about class balance is implementing indirect PvP; minigames, contests, PvE performance-based challenges, etc. I wish there was an official way to start some sort of early petition for things like this -- these experiences are something I believe no MMORPG has done right so far, and could really end up making a *HUGE* difference in gaming experience and replay value.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#14 Jun 19 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,457 posts
PvP in FFXI was somewhat fun to attend, but before Diorama Abdhaljs, you had to go at a certain time and if you missed it you were screwed.

I think there are a few key changes that would aid in a larger participation in PvP games.

- Rewards with a point system.
Let's face it, other than the lottery, most rewards involved receiving a 1 DMG weapon with 300 Delay, or a cute little santa suit. Those are all fine and good, in fact I love doing the events to obtain said items, but the items we receive for PvP points should be helpful in PvP, like viable gear.

- A staging point.
FFXIV will need a place where players can meet up to queue up for a PvP battle. Many people would say it was "unrealistic" to receive a message and click to warp to the battlefield like other games (WoW, WAR), but it makes it so convenient and would up participation quite a bit I think. You could actually do other things while you're waiting for the battle to commence.

- City vs. City
As with Ballista, pitting each home city against one another for friendly conquest would be a great thing to bring back. People didn't actually kill one another, they just got knocked out. Make the reward for the winning city greater though to keep the competition up.

- Dueling Area?
This on is a bit tough because as far as I've seen, most FF players don't want to walk out of town and see people dueling. Please don't think I'm suggesting a world PvP free for all type area. Just a place where you can accept 1v1's against your friends and any other player within these boundaries without having to teleport anywhere or wait in a queue for a battlegrounds. There would be no reward for this, just quick friendly duels with other players for practice and fun.

Although I've always loved PvP in every game I've played, I still think FFXIV should most def. focus on PvE as they always have, and I'm sure they will. The addition of a few ways to play vs. other players would be amazing fun though when you just don't feel like fighting monsters. If the dev. team is considering adding PvP later as they said, but in the tradition of FFXI, I think we'll be seeing something along the lines of this. Just an improved style of ballista.
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#15 Jun 19 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
*
102 posts
I'd prefer something done the way (lol)Runescape had it way back in the day, with their wilderness. A nice big zone that rewarded you for going further in, but opened PK for wider level gaps as you did. Other than that PvP/PK has usually been a nuisance that I'd rather not have.
#16 Jun 19 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
GuardianFaith wrote:


- Dueling Area?
Just a place where you can accept 1v1's against your friends and any other player within these boundaries without having to teleport anywhere or wait in a queue for a battlegrounds. There would be no reward for this, just quick friendly duels with other players for practice and fun.


So how would a bard or a white mage win over someone who is a dark night for example?
#17 Jun 19 2009 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
***
2,824 posts
They just need to put a card game parlor in a major city. Make up some form of Galkan bridge or Tarutaru pinochle for us to play and be done with it. I love PvP, don't get me wrong but there are better games for PvP so I'd rather they didn't bother.

#18 Jun 19 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Default
***
1,457 posts
Quote:
So how would a bard or a white mage win over someone who is a dark night for example?


They don't..
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#19 Jun 19 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Quote:
So how would a bard or a white mage win over someone who is a dark night for example?


Yeah, I'm not really sure why you'd want a WHM to win in a duel with a DRK anyway. That really... doesn't even make sense.

Along the lines of PvP gear, I'm hoping SE makes a lot of PvP gear sets (a few viable options for each career path available) but makes them *exclusively* for PvP. That way, if people want to dedicate their time to these competitive events and get rewarded for it, those rewards would be separate from the raiding/PvE community. I think that'll add longevity to the game, and give people a lot of options as to how to schedule their time. It'll also work to make sure SE *DOESNT* try to balance the class mechanics for PvP content.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#20 Jun 19 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
**
572 posts
Kharmageddon wrote:
Quote:
So how would a bard or a white mage win over someone who is a dark night for example?


Yeah, I'm not really sure why you'd want a WHM to win in a duel with a DRK anyway. That really... doesn't even make sense.

Along the lines of PvP gear, I'm hoping SE makes a lot of PvP gear sets (a few viable options for each career path available) but makes them *exclusively* for PvP. That way, if people want to dedicate their time to these competitive events and get rewarded for it, those rewards would be separate from the raiding/PvE community. I think that'll add longevity to the game, and give people a lot of options as to how to schedule their time. It'll also work to make sure SE *DOESNT* try to balance the class mechanics for PvP content.


So in a sense you don’t want bards, whitemages or any other "weak" class to touch that PvP content? So, only DD's VS DD's ?
#21 Jun 19 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
*
230 posts
Quote:
So in a sense you don’t want bards, whitemages or any other "weak" class to touch that PvP content? So, only DD's VS DD's ?


No, I want bards, white mages, and other "SUPPORT AND HEALING" classes to do what they do best; support and heal other players. Does that exclude them from dueling? Yes, you got me, they'll be poor at dueling. Does that exclude them from anything else? No. In fact, I'd dare argue that the player team with the best healers is often the one that finds itself victorious.

I don't get whats so hard to understand. When people roll a white mage, they don't do it with the hopes of one day doing crazy damage. When people roll bards, they don't expect to wear plate armor and hit things with a sword. I don't know why that role would change, just because their enemy is now another player.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#22 Jun 19 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
**
572 posts
Kharmageddon wrote:
Quote:
So in a sense you don’t want bards, whitemages or any other "weak" class to touch that PvP content? So, only DD's VS DD's ?


No, I want bards, white mages, and other "SUPPORT AND HEALING" classes to do what they do best; support and heal other players. Does that exclude them from dueling? Yes, you got me, they'll be poor at dueling. Does that exclude them from anything else? No. In fact, I'd dare argue that the player team with the best healers is often the one that finds itself victorious.

I don't get whats so hard to understand. When people roll a white mage, they don't do it with the hopes of one day doing crazy damage. When people roll bards, they don't expect to wear plate armor and hit things with a sword. I don't know why that role would change, just because their enemy is now another player.


I won’t bother follow up on this issue since it will probably end up the same as the one we had in the other thread. All that I can say is that you will never ever see this happen, so keep on dreaming.
#23 Jun 19 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
***
1,457 posts
Quote:
I don't get whats so hard to understand. When people roll a white mage, they don't do it with the hopes of one day doing crazy damage. When people roll bards, they don't expect to wear plate armor and hit things with a sword. I don't know why that role would change, just because their enemy is now another player.

I completely agree. When a game isn't hugely impacted by PvP the way that some other MMOs are, this isn't an important issue. That's like saying that you're bummed because your 5th grade teacher lost a fight to Randy Couture. Bards and White Mages are not built for fighting monsters, let alone other players... although I've seen some pretty gnarly Whinjas ^^.
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#24 Jun 19 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
*
230 posts
Quote:

I won’t bother follow up on this issue since it will probably end up the same as the one we had in the other thread. All that I can say is that you will never ever see this happen, so keep on dreaming.


...what? This is how it is in the majority of games. Not even just MMORPGs. Take a look at Team Fortress 2. Pit a medic against a pyro. You'd need an EXTREMELY skilled player playing the medic and a first time FPS player playing the pyro to make it even.

I'm starting to think the *only* game you've EVER played is WoW. And maybe Warhammer.

edit:

Quote:
That's like saying that you're bummed because your 5th grade teacher lost a fight to Randy Couture. Bards and White Mages are not built for fighting monsters, let alone other players...


I laughed at your example -- I almost used a very similar one to explain my point. Kudos on the good analogy.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 2:17pm by Kharmageddon
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#25 Jun 19 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Default
****
5,684 posts
Quote:
So how would a bard or a white mage win over someone who is a dark night for example?


Back in the day, when I used to play FFXI, I used to Ballista quite frequently. I think you underestimate the power of enfeebling magic on someone who is the same level. It is like 100% stick rate. I took down many DDs on my own using elegy/lullaby technique. Paean usually recovered any HP they took off me while they slept. WHM can be pretty devastating too once they get you enfeebled (not to mention blink/stoneskin can be a ***** to whittle through).
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#26 Jun 19 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,218 posts
Kharmageddon wrote:

How would you design a PvP system involving classes balanced purely for PvE without stomping on fragile egos?
Discuss.



Well, I wouldn't. That's how I'd do it. I wouldn't give much thought to PvP at all, unless I was going to design the game from the ground up as a PvP game.

I believe that if you want PvE and PvP to coexist in the same game, you start with the PvP balance, and then you tweak the PvE to fit.

Which still doesn't work because the PvE is going to be weak.

Really, you pick one or the other, do it really well, and if you can include some of the other thing in order to give people some variety, then cool. If not, oh well. Your game is either PvE or PvP, first and foremost, and you'd better know which it is before you even start.
#27 Jun 19 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
***
2,010 posts
Kharmageddon wrote:
I don't get whats so hard to understand. When people roll a white mage, they don't do it with the hopes of one day doing crazy damage. When people roll bards, they don't expect to wear plate armor and hit things with a sword. I don't know why that role would change, just because their enemy is now another player.


I'll tell you what though, it seems to be pretty exclusive to FFXI that mages and other support are *as weak* as they are. I mean, you look to lore in just about anywhere else, and healers can be pretty battle-hardened and it's not limited to a skinny pasty person holed up in a dungeon studying books.

I'm not saying that mages should necessarily whip out a greatsword and start hacking things to bits, but the level of weakness that we see in mages and support specifically in XI could be negated somewhat by giving them some defensive spells or abilities that actually make sense. This ties into that solo play, which is a really sore spot for a lot of the XI crowd for some reason.

On the topic of PvP, I never understood why people are so obsessed with beating the **** out of each other in a game. I guess to each their own, but I hope that the PvP that SE implements will be a little more elegant than the kind of thing we see in WoW where there are random dead bodies all over the place.
#28 Jun 19 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
*
237 posts
THe devs are setting out to make the best FF game first and foremost. FF has and always will be: The little guy rising up against a great evil.
For PvP to work you need:

Opposing factions: Good guys vs bad guys. But playing the Bad guys isn't very FF like. This will also split the server in 1/2, or create unbalanced sides.

2 factions vs a commoney enemy: It's you and them vs the bad guy. Which posses the question why don't ally up and fight the bad guy instead of fighting eachother?

or open world PvP which again goes agaist FF lore, where it's people uniting to defeat a large evil. Not people fighting amongst eacother to claim the NM or the best Camp.

With PvP along side PvE content it seems to be very hard to balance the two. I agree a healer shouldn't be able to DD, and a Nuker should fall quick when vs melee. But it's balancing it with the PvE game where people have the most issues with.

A certin class gets nerfed because they we're just dealing too much dmg in PvP and it turns into a HUGE nerf when fighting a boss mob. Or healers get their spells turned down a notch which balances the PvP aspect but tosses a monkey wrench in the PvE game.

Not saying it's impossible but any PvP other than mini game or consenting PvP just breaks what it means to play Final Fantasy.

If you crave PvP go pick up Warhammer, or Lineage 2.
____________________________
FFXIV has it's first official RMT'r: Zyuu
#29 Jun 19 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
THe devs are setting out to make the best FF game first and foremost. FF has and always will be: The little guy rising up against a great evil.
For PvP to work you need:

Opposing factions: Good guys vs bad guys. But playing the Bad guys isn't very FF like. This will also split the server in 1/2, or create unbalanced sides.

2 factions vs a commoney enemy: It's you and them vs the bad guy. Which posses the question why don't ally up and fight the bad guy instead of fighting eachother?

or open world PvP which again goes agaist FF lore, where it's people uniting to defeat a large evil. Not people fighting amongst eacother to claim the NM or the best Camp.

With PvP along side PvE content it seems to be very hard to balance the two. I agree a healer shouldn't be able to DD, and a Nuker should fall quick when vs melee. But it's balancing it with the PvE game where people have the most issues with.

A certin class gets nerfed because they we're just dealing too much dmg in PvP and it turns into a HUGE nerf when fighting a boss mob. Or healers get their spells turned down a notch which balances the PvP aspect but tosses a monkey wrench in the PvE game.

Not saying it's impossible but any PvP other than mini game or consenting PvP just breaks what it means to play Final Fantasy.

If you crave PvP go pick up Warhammer, or Lineage 2.


Good post ^^
#30 Jun 19 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
*
115 posts
I always liked the system used in Asheron's Call (not sure how many of you know of the game, though). Players would all start out as unable to attack others, but through a quest they could become PKers and could engage and kill any other PKer they want, while non-PKs would still be immune to player attacks. It made sure that those who wanted to be PKs could be, but they couldn't mess with those who didn't. Well, except on the all PK server where new players would be killed the instant they spawned... >.>
____________________________
{Monk} {Power} {You can have this.}

Death: "No, I won't do it, and nothing you can say or do will change my mind."
TV: "We now return to women's proffesional-"
Death: "Alright, you win. Let's go."
#31 Jun 19 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
**
659 posts
Instanced PvP is the way to go I think in FFXIV. Ballista was a cool concept but didn't play out well imo. Have a battleground, sorry to use WoW terms but, with objectives for each team. Winning team gets a reward like money, tokens, xp or items. Being able to organize your team based on a group or your linkshell would be nice, too.

Balance between classes will be an issue and we just have to hope that SE monitors PvP well enough. WoW has always had trouble balancing classes not because the developers suck but because it's just hard. I bet that SE will do their best to keep classes balanced.

In Wow, some abilities have slightly different effects when used against players. For example, crowd control effects have diminishing returns and a maximum 10 second limit when used on players. Maybe SE could consider implementing something similar to help balance class strength in PvP and PvE.
____________________________
Aggieland -> "From the outside looking in, you can't understand it. From the inside out, you can't explain it."

Final Fantasy XIV: Neithan Turambar, Cactuar Server
Guild Wars 2: Level 80 Guardian Neithan Turambar Jade Quarry Server
WoW: Lvl 85 Shaman Friewyn Black Dragonflight Server (retired)
FFXI: Lvl 75 Dark Knight Neithan (retired many years ago)
LotRO: Lvl 30 Maethros (retired)
#32 Jun 19 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
46 posts
Quote:
Winning team gets a reward like money, tokens, xp or items. Being able to organize your team based on a group or your linkshell would be nice, too.

I think that this is a great idea. There could be like a huge arena were people can put their flags up and then create a party where they could fight would be cool. The only thing that I would hate to happen is TWINKS which I hate.
____________________________
It takes two to tango but six to party.
#33 Jun 19 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
62 posts
SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
2 factions vs a commoney enemy: It's you and them vs the bad guy. Which posses the question why don't ally up and fight the bad guy instead of fighting eachother?


Good idea, but lets spice it up a bit. Player versus Environment versus Player (PvEvP). This instance would be 20/40 players vs 20/40 players (think WoWs AV). The objective is to claim certain locations (flags) around the map from the enemy WHILE defending/attacking the opposing team (the players). Once a team achieves certain amount of points (or claimed objectives) the enemy will open it's fort for a final assault against both teams. Now with the enemys front door open to attack, each team will need to push in to take out the BIG BOSS (general/uber commander etc etc.). Of course it won't be easy holding said "Boss" from the opposing team, so like endgame, you'll need good team work to win.

The above is just a quick idea, im sure someone can add more to it. But i think PvEvP would be fun. :)
____________________________
Ex-FFXI Player. Future FFXIV player. ヽ(´▽`)ノ
#34 Jun 19 2009 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
46 posts
These are all great ideas but there is going to be a massive amounts of TWINKS. i hate TWINKS waste of spaces.
____________________________
It takes two to tango but six to party.
#35 Jun 19 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
777 posts
Yazumi wrote:
Player versus Environment versus Player (PvEvP). This instance would be 20/40 players vs 20/40 players (think WoWs AV). The objective is to claim certain locations (flags) around the map from the enemy WHILE defending/attacking the opposing team (the players). Once a team achieves certain amount of points (or claimed objectives) the enemy will open it's fort for a final assault against both teams. Now with the enemys front door open to attack, each team will need to push in to take out the BIG BOSS (general/uber commander etc etc.). Of course it won't be easy holding said "Boss" from the opposing team, so like endgame, you'll need good team work to win.

Now you make me miss the original Alteric Vally Battleground. Back when it used to be really freaking fun, and was more PvE than it was PvP :(
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#36 Jun 19 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
62 posts
AV used to be epic indeed. Each battle used to last for hours and if your lucky (unlucky? :P ), days. I can so~ imagine such battles in FFXIV; Each team starting at opposite sides - Enemy HNM in the middle of the map, inside his base, while his forces spread out defending each objective.

Just had an evil thought. Absolute Virtue can make his cameo as the general. MAAaa~ that would be glorious! ψ(`▽´)ψ
____________________________
Ex-FFXI Player. Future FFXIV player. ヽ(´▽`)ノ
#37 Jun 19 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
706 posts
I don't want PVP to be a focus in FFXI. At all.

One of the big flaws in WoW, is constantly having to balance a class for completely opposing play styles.

If you address issues with a class/job in PVE content, you run the risk of making the class/job too strong in PVP, and thus, you limit the potential applications of the job.

I really think FFXI's PVP system was fine, outside of it being really hard to access. It was awkward having to go to a certain area at a time, and pay a fee to boot.

While there was the Diorama, it just made it easier to make a match between friends, and outside of that, it wasn't really useful.
____________________________
Server = Remora - Rank 10 Windurstian

Menchi
Tarutaru
75 BLM (Main)
37 WHM
37 RDM
25 SMN (Future Main ^^)
ZM Complete - CoP Complete - Windurst - Complete
LS - Dragonflies
#38 Jun 21 2009 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
339 posts
I agree with what some have already mentioned.

That FFXIV is first and foremost a Final Fantasy game and a MMO second.

Yes most other MMO's have warring factions but in Final Fantasy its always been the player versus the enemy. Which is tied in to the whole story.

So I think any PvP will sway towards some sort of games, much like they do in FFXI.

I just hope they make them more accessable.

(Unless in some turn of events, we will get to choose to play as "beastmen", but I doubt that.)

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 7:14pm by scotchio
#39 Jun 21 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
**
456 posts
I think PvP should be like in ffxi but upgraded some. PvP should not get much thought at all and the game is a PvE Game. PvP and PvE in 1 game does not balance out well so 1 will usually be the main focus and the other one a side note. As SE already said with them worrying about PvP in the latter, just tells me that they are staying true to their roots and keeping PvE the main point, with PvP being a side note. One more thing, I think PvP should in no way be balanced, a whm should not be able to kill real dds, and blms should be able to wreck havok. This does not mean everybody be a DD also, because PvP in FF is still a team sport, whms should help in a team effort (healing teammates etc), not be in the middle sparring with drks just because people want to. A good balanced team with good healers would beat a team with all DD anyday, jobs have a role, and should not be balanced out in PvP just because people whine. That being said I have played PvP in ffxi as many jobs, and when I came as a whm I didn't want to be killing drks, I wanted to help the team in my role (just seems silly to me a whm killing DDs). Just because other games you can doesn't mean its right or wrong, it just means in that game they made it so you can.
#40 Jun 21 2009 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
In my opinion if FFXIV has any kind of PvP they need to keep it simple, like how balista is/was(I don't know if it is the same because I quit some time ago). Introducing open PvP would cause way to many balance issues.

I am playing Warhammer Online atm, and I have never seen a game get hit with so many nerfs. They end up breaking PvE abilities so they are not OP in PvP and vice versa.

The Final Fantasy universe has done well up untill this point with very limited PvP and I think it should be kept that way. I really don't want to see a PvE game fail because of PvP balance issues.
#41 Jun 21 2009 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
Team based PvP was always fun in XI.. that way you don't really have to make whm's be able to beat drk's in a duel, too since whm's can do what they do best and still be able to be good at PvP.

PvE based PvP would be awesome as well. <3 tower defense.. maybe they could make the HNM system like that in XIV: the winner of the event gets the HNM ;).

Just gotta make it so it doesn't last that long (30mins max imo) and there would be some random factor to keep it interesting longer. Each HNM could have it's own system in place too (or a group of HNM's so all of the dev time doesn't go to making new ways to compete for the HNM's!).
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#42 Jun 21 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
21 posts
Phatsac wrote:
In my opinion if FFXIV has any kind of PvP they need to keep it simple, like how balista is/was(I don't know if it is the same because I quit some time ago). Introducing open PvP would cause way to many balance issues.

I am playing Warhammer Online atm, and I have never seen a game get hit with so many nerfs. They end up breaking PvE abilities so they are not OP in PvP and vice versa.

The Final Fantasy universe has done well up untill this point with very limited PvP and I think it should be kept that way. I really don't want to see a PvE game fail because of PvP balance issues.


It's the same in World of Warcraft. Every other week there's cries for PvP imbalances, which leads to massive overhauls of abilities, tuning and nerfs which in turn affect PvE performance of some classes. It just adds one more dimension of balancing to be had, and Square-Enix has never been the fastest gun in the west when it comes to dealing with ingame imbalances quickly. PvP in form of ballista is fine by me, but I don't wish to see world pvp, battlegrounds and "arena" type of PvP in the game. Like a previous poster wrote, Final Fantasy has never been about PvP, so I don't wish to see them starting it now.
#43 Jun 22 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Default
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
I really don't see the charm in PvP at all.

In PvE your WHM heals the tank. In PvP you heal everyone. Is that so amazingly much more fun? Pressing cure 3 macro more often?

In PvE you occasionally get slept by a BLM. In PvP it is standard to spam sleep. Is it SO much more fun to be incapacitated with sleep that you want to PvP to do so?

In my eyes PvP seems like ********* mode for whoever do not think FFXI is harsh enough.
#44 Jun 22 2009 at 4:57 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
So how would a bard or a white mage win over someone who is a dark night for example?


Personally I don't take the attitude that "They don't." That's FFXI.

I prefer if the jobs are more or less balanced and self-sufficient. And I'm bargaining that they will be, because they really HAVE to be in terms of solo ability.

Basically jobs are defined more by their abilities than by their stats. Yes, there are differences in stats, just not as extreme. A White Mage versus a Dark Knight would depend on player ability and level/gear/etc. The Dark Knight's offensive ability is relatively balanced with the White Mage's defensive and restorative ability. The White Mage's melee and spell attacks don't stack up to the raw power of the Dark Knight, but the White Mage may outlast the Dark Knight in the end. Both characters have different roles, but their worth is relatively the same.

Personal opinion.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 5:58am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Jun 22 2009 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,814 posts
Mellowy wrote:
I really don't see the charm in PvP at all.

In PvE your WHM heals the tank. In PvP you heal everyone. Is that so amazingly much more fun? Pressing cure 3 macro more often?

In PvE you occasionally get slept by a BLM. In PvP it is standard to spam sleep. Is it SO much more fun to be incapacitated with sleep that you want to PvP to do so?

I wouldn't use FFXI PvP as your standard, but I think you're missing the point. For me, pvp is about two things. First it is about dynamic content, and second it is about a truly challenging scenario.

The first problem with PvE is that it is scripted. The same boss will be fought the exact same way every time. It's terribly predictable. To avoid this game designers have to keep designing more boss with more scripts. As long as you have a new boss to try out you have new content, but any bosses you've already fought are used up content. You've seen it already.

The second problem is that ultimately PvE is designed for players to win. If it weren't designed for players to win it'd be frustrating torture, perhaps what AV is like from what I hear. I don't find joy in succeeding in an encounter that was designed for me to win in the first place. It's like racing someone when you get to start next to the finish line and he starts a mile back,what's the point in racing? I do find lots of fun in winning in PvE encounters I shouldn't have been able to win. The way most pve encounters are made more "challenging" is by increasing the gear check, giving bosses more hp and damage.

PvP fixes both of this. Content is always new and fresh in pvp, because it's being constantly imputed by another player. When expansions come out the devs are expected to release new raids and bosses in order to give pve players new content, but pvp players don't need anything new released. At most they might get a new map, but usually pvp alone is fresh enough for them.

PvP encounters, when balanced well, are the perfect challenge. They are designed for me to specifically win, nor are they designed for anyone else to necessarily win. The only reason I win is because I truly earned it. I had to do better than someone else at an equally difficult event in order to win.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 9:28am by Allegory
#46 Jun 22 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
6 posts
Here is the only issue with PvP. Balance. Let's take a moment to reflect on how completely screwed up the classes can be in games that try to make both PvE and PvP content of equal importance. Since we all (or most of) are familiar with WoW, let's take a look at when the last time any of those classes were remotely close to a balanced state.... keep thinking.... yeah, they never have been. At least every month - 2 months there is a new class that is on top in terms of PvP or PvE, and the fixes to make a certain class more viable in one or the other typically breaks it for the one it wasn't trying to fix. This then leaves more work for the devs to just try and balance the classes instead of make new content for the players to enjoy. Think about how many of the updates in WoW are related to class balance, and how little is related to new content.

I personally would much rather SE not get sucked into the PvP game too much, I would love to see something similar to what is in FFXI currently, but anything more than that I'd rather them pass on. Furthermore, if they even decide to implement PvP, I hope they prioritize the PvP class balancing at the extreme bottom of their to do list, as it will more than likely ***** up an aspect of the PvE game for any given class. FFXI has been actually pretty **** successful in terms of class balance (aside from a few notable times *lolnin, loldragoon, lolrng* off the top of my head) But most were fixed by the next major content patch because they only had to focus on balancing the class for PvE content.

In short, the PvP and PvE balancing act can be a huge pain in the ***, and personally I have always found Final Fantasy to be about the Player vs. Environment anyways, PvP can take a backseat, and should always take a backseat to PvE content in an FF game.



Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 10:53am by BourbonCowboy
____________________________
[IMG]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/Viper57728/adobeArtwork/forum_sig-1.jpg[/IMG]

FFXI:
Gattz; PLD75,MNK75 - Sandy (10)
Moris; RDM75 - Bastok (10)
Maerian; DNC60

WOW:
Death Knight, Druid; 80
Warrior, Shaman, Paladin, Warlock, Rogue; 70
#47 Jun 22 2009 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
*
192 posts
Allegory wrote:
PvP encounters, when balanced well, are the perfect challenge. They are designed for me to specifically win, nor are they designed for anyone else to necessarily win. The only reason I win is because I truly earned it. I had to do better than someone else at an equally difficult event in order to win.


PvP can be a lot of fun for these reasons. But, ****, I'm a picky guy. I don't like PvP wherein people 1) aren't acting sportsmanlike and friendly and 2) where things are competitive to the point that, via not super PvP gearing and not playing the game for a million hours, I'm destined to get crushed round after round. Which is, unfortunately, most MMO PvP. If I want to compete with other players, I usually just have a better time playing on random TF2 servers (yes, it is a different genre, but...).

But whatever PvP Square decides to implement, high five for all the PvP fans. I'm pulling for some non-traditional PvP like kinds that have been mentioned in this thread.
____________________________
The Other Castle
#48 Jun 22 2009 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,814 posts
BourbonCowboy wrote:
Here is the only issue with PvP. Balance. Let's take a moment to reflect on how completely screwed up the classes can be in games that try to make both PvE and PvP content of equal importance. Since we all (or most of) are familiar with WoW, let's take a look at when the last time any of those classes were remotely close to a balanced state.... keep thinking.... yeah, they never have been. At least every month - 2 months there is a new class that is on top in terms of PvP or PvE, and the fixes to make a certain class more viable in one or the other typically breaks it for the one it wasn't trying to fix. This then leaves more work for the devs to just try and balance the classes instead of make new content for the players to enjoy. Think about how many of the updates in WoW are related to class balance, and how little is related to new content.

Please, please just don't talk about what you don't know.

This should be obvious, but apparently to so many people is not. Nothing, NOTHING, will ever be exactly, perfectly, and precisely balanced ever. As long as they aren't, and even when they are, people will ALWAYS complain. If Timmy gets .00001 grams more cake than Jimmy, then Jimmy will whine and cry all day long about how life is unfair.

There are complaints about WoW pvp, but it is by far one of the most balanced pvp systems. It's great, and anyone who has played it and compared it to the pvp in other games knows that. It's far, far more balanced than FFXI pvp. It kicks the *** out of Lotro pvp. Warhammer pvp is acceptable, but lacks a lot of the depth available in WoW pvp. Guild Wars has a strong reflex element, but too much is in setup.

People complain about WoW pve balance as well, but that doesn't mean the dev team hasn't done a great job balancing all the classes, it means people like to complain.

You could not be more wrong on this point.
BourbonCowboy wrote:
I personally would much rather SE not get sucked into the PvP game too much, I would love to see something similar to what is in FFXI currently, but anything more than that I'd rather them pass on. Furthermore, if they even decide to implement PvP, I hope they prioritize the PvP class balancing at the extreme bottom of their to do list, as it will more than likely ***** up an aspect of the PvE game for any given class. FFXI has been actually pretty **** successful in terms of class balance (aside from a few notable times *lolnin, loldragoon, lolrng* off the top of my head) But most were fixed by the next major content patch because they only had to focus on balancing the class for PvE content.

You're so blind. FFXI pvp and pve are so incredibly unbalanced it's laughable. The whole ninja "shadows block all damage," does a lot to ***** things up. Do you remember the early days of kirin when every melee class spent the entire fights building up 300% tp for spirits within because it was the only useful skill they had? Monks were invited and kicked out of the alliance in rotation for chi blast. That's awful. Not even close to being balanced.
#49 Jun 22 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,145 posts
Frankly, if I want to compete against other people, I'll play a FPS or RST or something. PVP in a mmorpg was a silly idea to begin with. When has it EVER been balanced in ANY game? It just doesn't work because of the genre and never will without ******** up basics that make the RPG element go round.

If people are so bloody thirsty for each other's bloody throats in a bloody genre not bloody designed for PVP, then may I suggest dropping the 1v1 crap already and making it an all out alliance vs alliance event with end game worthy rewards for the victors via a points system. As much as I don't care for PVP, if it's going to be done it's time to stop half assing it. Provide motivation to make people want to do it on a mass scale. Turn it into a full fledge event. No job left behind. You avoid the inevitable balance issues and jobs can do what they are meant to do. FFXI had this going for it but lack of rewards is what killed it. You need the rewards or it's a complete waste of time and pixels. Think outside of the end game box for a change. The best gear doesn't have to come from a mega boss kill all the time.
#50 Jun 22 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,814 posts
Voldermolt wrote:
Frankly, if I want to compete against other people, I'll play a FPS or RST or something.

And this is always a silly statement. If you want an RPG you should be playing Legend of Dragoon or Final Fantasy 10!

Comeptitive play isn't limited to a few genres. It's in almost every game genre. Fighting games, racing games, FPS, RTS, Action games, MMORPGs....
Voldermolt wrote:
PVP in a mmorpg was a silly idea to begin with.

That multiple MMORPGs have been hugely successful with...
Voldermolt wrote:
When has it EVER been balanced in ANY game? It just doesn't work because of the genre and never will without ******** up basics that make the RPG element go round.

It has been balanced, just never exactatively-tacackly perfect. Neither has pve. I guess we should remove pve from MMORPGs since it has never been balanced either, huh.
Voldermolt wrote:
Provide motivation to make people want to do it on a mass scale. Turn it into a full fledge event. No job left behind. You avoid the inevitable balance issues and jobs can do what they are meant to do.

Except most people don't want it on a massive scale, and it still fails to fix any balance issues...
#51 Jun 22 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
248 posts
Quote:
I dont want to see the PvE side of the game be addled by balance changes made to fit PvP


This.

Trying to make one game work for both PvE and PvP will most certainly result in compromises and a less than satisfactory experience for both play styles. The only real solution is to make it two separate games and there are many different ways to do this - minigames, instanced battlegrounds, arenas, etc. Some games like WoW show different server types but the only difference is mostly territorial rules - this is not good enough. The game being played on a PvP server really does need to be different from the game being played on a PvE server.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 12:22pm by ShiidouHikaru
____________________________
Alycione, 80 Fire Mage
Étoile, 80 Prot Paladin
Jeanne, 80 Demo Warlock
Sayanida, 61 Fury Warrior
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 22 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (22)