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Potential growth in jobs and skills?Follow

#1 Jun 20 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
98 posts
I just wanted to point out a little more on the growth system that the developers are mentioning and what I think would be interesting.

A job system that "grows" with the character that you are playing. I'll list a couple examples. You are given a list of jobs that you can select at the beginning and from there branch out depending on how you want to progress through the job system. One example I was thinking of would be Knight, you start off as a Knight and from there work your way up going on separate paths, thus changing your job title, skills available while every skill you recieved while being a knight still remains, and the skills you had from the next title remains as well as you progress to something like holy knight, paladin, crusader, caviler, sacred knight, etc, or twilight knight, demon knight, dark knight, doom knight etc.. just off the top of my head really but you get my point.

Another way this could be accomplished is through a growth tree, where all of your stats that you gain would come from as you progress, if you wish to have a knight of light who concentrates on damage, you can go down that path, but as you branch further, the other paths become unavailable in order to get the most damaging stats and active abilities. I'll give an example, you start off in the lower tier having few stats to choose from to allocate ap or whatever, choose from, 1 vit, 10 hp, 1 str or 2 str 1 dex 5 hp etc and they change as you move further down introducing new stats like + defense and evasion, higher pools of hp, or pure attacking stats and critical strike %. also magical resistance. Lets say from this you want a purely defensive demon knight who specializes in absorbing magical damage who has high defense and magical resistances, with spells that reflect magic, absorbs and channels back portion of the spell back to the enemy (or enemies) and that can drain the health back. Or an offensive sacred knight that can wield two swords and uses the life force in his surrounding areas to grant extra damage to his sword strikes and special attacks.

For a job such as summoner it could branch out in such a way so that it begins as a single elemental summons that you can use, and as you progress you can improve one elemental and keep building it up, or switch to light or dark, or have all of the elementals excluding light and dark, also necromancer could be an option.
#2 Jun 20 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Default
32 posts
How about this:

You begin the game after creating your character with no equipment whatsoever. You have no job, just Adventurer in the spot where your job title would be. At this point, you can do nothing but talk to NPCs. There would be certain basic instructional NPCs to get you started, either spread around, or maybe they find you in the opening cutscene, similar to how they do in the beginning of FFXI. They guide you to 1 of 4 NPCs.

NPC1 is a heavy melee NPC. Go this NPC if you want to follow the path of heavy melee.

NPC2 is a mage. Go to them for the mage path.

NPC3 is a light melee. Go to them for the faster, stealthier jobs.

NPC4 is a hybrid. Go to them for the hybrid jobs.

Let's say, for example, you chose NPC1. You want to be a heavy melee. NPC1 gives you an Onion Sword, and tells you some basic things about being a heavy melee: tanking, DD, stuff like that. Now, you have a weapon. On your Onion Sword, you see the following:

Onion Sword
Dmg: 3
Delay: 120
Provoke: 0/50

Dmg is the damage of the weapon, how much it can damage an enemy. Combines with your STR stat to hurt enemies.

Delay is how often the weapon can be swung.

Provoke is the job ability Provoke. Allows you to taunt an enemy into attacking you, for the purpose of tanking.

0/50 means you have acquired 0 out of 50 AP towards learning Provoke, gained by defeating enemies/accomplishing quests.

Equipping the Onion Sword changes your job title to Warrior. You are now a Warrior, and your stats adjust to reflect this, with STR, VIT, DEX, AGI, INT, MND, CHR, and HPs gaining appropriate adjustments. You have no MP as you cannot use magic, and are not a mage anyway (but you can imagine if you chose a mage path, it would also add MP and adjust it accordingly)

As long as the Onion Sword is equipped, you can use Provoke. Removing the Onion Sword, or replacing it with a different weapon, will cause the ability Provoke to vanish from your command list.

As long as the Onion Sword is equipped, the stat bonuses listed below Provoke will be added to your base stats. Removing the Onion Sword will cause those stats to disappear, as with Provoke.

Unequip the Onion Sword, and your title once again becomes Adventurer, and your stats readjust to reflect the stats of an Adventurer.

Once you have acquired 50 AP, you will learn Provoke. You can now use Provoke at any time, without needing the Onion Sword to be equipped. In addition, the stat bonuses will now be available with the job ability Provoke. However, because Provoke is a Warrior ability, if you unequip the Onion Sword, and do not equip another weapon that makes you a Warrior, such as a newer better sword or other weapon type Warrior can use, you will revert to an adventurer again. The weapon type is your key to the job you want to play.

A new menu will become available upon learning your first ability/spell. The Job Points menu (JP) allows you to allocate your job points to set the abilities and spells you have learned. JP increases with the more abilities and spells you learn, but there is never enough JP to set every ability, so you have to choose carefully.

However, equipping a weapon and setting abilities that change your job name to a particular class will allow you to use all native abilities of that class without requiring JP. For example, if you know Provoke, Berserk, and Defender, all Warrior abilities, you can equip a weapon that will change your Job to Warrior. Provoke, Berserk, Defender, and the stat bonuses that come with them, will all be applied to your stats, and you can use them without having to set them or use any of your JP.

Thus, by learning abilities and spells, you gain more stats and become stronger in this way.

As a particular job, you can use your JP to set abilities or spells that job cannot normally use. Each ability or spell will require a certain amount of JP; generally, the stronger the ability, the more JP it will take to set it. Once set, you can use that ability freely. Spells will add things like INT, MND, and MP, so you will be able to cast even if you are not a mage job or your job has no MP pool of its own.

Your goal for getting stronger becomes to acquire weapons and learn the abilities on them, to increase the stats of your desired job. Changing your weapon, changes your job. If you equip a staff, and set White Magic spells, you will become a White Mage. If you equip a staff, and set Black Magic spells, you become a Black Mage. If you equip a sword and set Black and White Magic spells, you will become a Red Mage. If you equip a Scythe, and set Black Magic spells with abilities like Soul Eater and Last Resort, you will become a Dark Knight. And so on.

Thus: There are no levels. You can equip any weapon type, but changing weapon types may change your job, unless your job has access to multiple weapon types,in that case it would probably depend on the abilities you set. Armor can only be equipped by the appropriate job. Job proficiency is based on the abilities you learn, and the stat bonuses and functions those abilities provide, combined with the strength of the weapon and armor your job can wear to supplement those abilities.

Your job can freely use any ability it has native access to(like if you change to Black Mage, you can use all Black Magic spells you have learned, White Mage can use all White Magic spells you have learned, Warrior can use all Warrior abilities, and so on), and will receive the stat bonuses all of those abilities give without having to set them in the JP menu.

Over time, you learn enough abilities and spells to have many stat boosts, making your job's HP, MP, and all other stats related to your job's performance rise to very high levels, making you stronger and stronger. Setting things in the JP menu will allow your job to use spells and abilities it does not normally have access to, without having to change your job to use them, sort of like a portable version of FFXI's sub job system.

I used Warrior as an example, but if you wanted to be a mage from the beginning, or something else, you can probably imagine how that would go, just substitute Onion Rod or Onion Staff for Onion Sword, and Cure or Stone or some low level spell for Provoke.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 4:57pm by Faldein
#3 Jun 20 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
9,997 posts
I am EXTREMELY skeptical of anything that looks like a job tree. I know that one thing SE and most players liked about FFXI was the ability to change roles with relative quickness and ease. A job tree does not really mesh well with these principles.

Now it can definitely be done, but it's just a very roundabout, unnecessary way to do it. Plus, job trees are old hat, and SE is almost always aiming for top drawer.

I think we'll see something a little more straightforward. Hopefully rather than having to progress through certain jobs to unlock other jobs, you'll actually quest ability sets.

For example, if you want to learn Fire magic, you'll learn it initially through a quest minigame where you light candles with your mind (or something). Then there may be other quests later which open up further Fire spells to you.

This is how I envision it, but I'm probably just projecting. I have my own MMO design and I see a lot of potential for FFXIV to sync up with it.
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#4 Jun 20 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
456 posts
I agree with kachi with most everything was said, the special thing about ffxi was the ability to change jobs and play all jobs on 1 character. They said they know this and wants to expand on the ffxi job system but in a growth way so I see it as straight forward, just not with exp but in a more natural growth kind of way. I don't know exactly how the growth will be yet because noone does, but I see it as learning new skills/spells through quest and mission storylines along with killing mobs.
#5 Jun 20 2009 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
98 posts
I agree with changing jobs, but I like my idea for the simple fact that sub jobs wouldn't be necessary. Most people will want to change jobs on the fly, whereas others wish to improve on a single job and refine it to their liking and having both as an option is great in my opinion.
#6 Jun 20 2009 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
456 posts
I'm not a fan of sub jobs either, and I dont think SE is either. They didn't like everybody subbin /nin, I dont think that was there vision. I think like they said they keeping ffxi job system but expanding on it, so it will be different. Progessing through the game through growth could be a way of substituting the need of a sub job, but i just think a grid system would not be able to change jobs on a fly. I think the system will be different but will also be easy to change because SE knows that it was an amazing feature.
#7 Jun 20 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
31 posts
I agree that I hope the job system stays relatively the same minus the SJ's. Every DD job that doesn't need to use a 2-Hander was going /nin for Dual Weild and Utsusemi. That kinda short-changed DRG, DRK, and SAM in the survivability/utility aspect.

Now Ninja is a fantastic job and I hope it comes back in full force in XIV, but I don't like how nobody played it to SE's intentions. It was supposed to be a puller/DD job like Ranger. Yes, they made good tanks, but if they are going to be dodge/evasion tanks again, I hope SE makes them into that.

Does anybody else feel this way?
#8 Jun 20 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
98 posts
Hopefully if they bring shadows back for ninja, it is in the realm of avoiding damage, and increasing their damage output while at the same time dropping their hate with the monster for the simple fact that he can't find his target right away so he would rather fight someone he can see straight. That and remove all the expendable tools, have some but for the most part tools should be infinite or at least last for a long time. Have a ninja skill that creates these tools as well that is only available to this job.
#9 Jun 20 2009 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
31 posts
zeroskillkyrios wrote:
Hopefully if they bring shadows back for ninja, it is in the realm of avoiding damage, and increasing their damage output while at the same time dropping their hate with the monster for the simple fact that he can't find his target right away so he would rather fight someone he can see straight. That and remove all the expendable tools, have some but for the most part tools should be infinite or at least last for a long time. Have a ninja skill that creates these tools as well that is only available to this job.

I love this idea, if they make Ninja solely a DD. If you pull hate you can shed it, much like High/Super Jump for DRG. :D

Also, tools should be expendable, but I also agree you should gain an ability to create the tools, without having to grind a craft for it and without having to empty your stash of gil/XIV currency.
#10 Jun 20 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Default
828 posts
my take on what i read would be something that makes jobs unique. if i read read correctly they wanna kill the job stigmatism that 11 has where so much stuff if like sam onry blm onry or just a straight lol@yourjob.

if im right theyre planning to make almost all jobs unique so if for example warrior one goes is fighting evasive mobs he might learn an accuracy bonus jobtrait. but if warrior 2 is fighting less evasive but heavily armoured mobs he might learn an attack bonus trait instead.

or something like warrior1 uses a hand axe. he might learn to dualwield them and specialise in them. where warrior2 might use great axe maybe learns double attack. and which you use affects your skills. for example warrior one might be the equivelent of an a+ rank in axe but could be restricted to a c rank in gaxe. where warrior 2 might be a+ in gaxe but c rank in axe.

and them do the same kind of thing with mages and magic. black mage 1 may specialise in fire magic and thus all his other elements could be much weaker. and he wouldnt be as effective against fire based mobs. but could shine against ice mobs. blm2 could specialise in ice magic and thus would be much weaker than blm1 on said ice mob.

i think something like this could have alot of potential to increase diversity. in 11 jobs get locked. an example is under obs bc for peacock charm. nearly always rdm + ninx2, if you add the diversity to the jobs it could reduce this kinda thing because if party a won the fight with that setup party b with identical jobs could have a completely different set of specialtys and thus fail be completely wrong for the fight

and lastly completely non related
without having to empty your stash of gil/XIV currency.

i'd put money on it being gil. its ff gil is the only thing they know lol i'm fairly sure its the currency in every single ff

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 2:50am by Dzian

#11 Jun 21 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
441 posts
I'm not so sure about what was suggested by Dzian, because that doesn't promote SE's theme of "growth". Once you go down what is perceived as the "gimp path" in a "job spec", you would get shunned if you don't fit within the community's pidgeonhole. I think this is exactly the thing SE (and community) wants to avoid.

The problem with ffxi was that after you hit LV75, the only "growth" left to you was limited to merit points, maximising performance via rare or exclusive equipment and finally levelling yet another job and repeating the process.

Another problem with FFXI's job and subjob system was that specific types of player activity (e.g. /NIN and any other bandwagon ideology) negated the benefits of job diversity. The challenge for SE is to create a system where there is a measure of equality in all jobs (support, offence and defence) while celebrating the differences between the jobs by having enough unique characteristics to make players want to experience everything (and hence unlimited growth).

On the one hand, the player needs to find satisfaction by gaining progression by doing discrete activities (or the epic mission-based storylines such as CoP or ZM) while SE needs to keep players occupied in a time sink so they keep subscribing to play.
War 75 Nin75 Sam75
#12 Jun 21 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
31 posts
Unfortunately, no matter what SE does with this game, every class will get somewhat pigeonholed into a universal role by the community. To avoid this, just find a group of people that a appreciate what you have to offer in your character.
#13 Jun 21 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
11,630 posts
Best solution is to simply split the game up.

Easy street, where everything is easy, and good things drop.

Hard street, where everything is hard, same things drop, but you get titles.

That way if you want to be melee WHM, just go easy street and nobody can complain. You will get your items, and have fun.

If you just have to have a challenge, then pick hard street, but don't expect to do it as melee WHM.
#14 Jun 21 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
456 posts
LoL People will complain if you get the same item in easy street as in hard street. Theres no way to make a game where nobody complains. The people that pick the hard street would complain that all they get for going the challenging route is a title, and people that want it easy could just go the easy way. Many people play the game for the sense of accomplishments, and it no longer feels like an accomplishment if there is an easy way to get the same stuff.
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