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Make support roles less potent.Follow

#1 Jun 20 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Default
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I mentioned this in another thread, but I really hope that support roles are less potent (see: overpowered) in FFXIV.

In many single player games, support roles like healers and buffers are not essential, and often they're balanced enough that it comes down to a matter of personal preference whether to bring a healer or another damage dealer.

In FFXI support roles are essential for any party to function smoothly.

Ultimately whether you invite a healer or not should depend more on whether or not you like the person, or at least how -good- of a healer they are, rather than the fact that they are essential to you getting anything done. A healer should carry the weight of a damage dealer, maybe a tad more, but not be as unquestionably more valuable than a damage dealer as they are in FFXI.

If you have a party that's 5/6, a great damage dealer should always be preferable to a poor or mediocre healer.
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#2 Jun 20 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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It usually only works well in single player games because you can always heal after a battle using potions and what not...which would never work in an MMO.

I'm not totally against the idea but the only way I think that would work is to create a system similar to FFTA2 where after every battle the team's health is restored to maximum. I can see ways in which it might work in an MMO but I don't think it would be a very popular mechanic.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 3:19pm by Yogtheterrible
#3 Jun 20 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Ultimately whether you invite a healer or not should depend more on whether or not you like the person, or at least how -good- of a healer they are, rather than the fact that they are essential to you getting anything done. A healer should carry the weight of a damage dealer, maybe a tad more, but not be as unquestionably more valuable than a damage dealer as they are in FFXI.

If you have a party that's 5/6, a great damage dealer should always be preferable to a poor or mediocre healer.


No matter what in any type of MMO such as ffxi and possible ffxiv.. you need to have the support of each other. With out a healer... think of the down time to rest, and who's gonna raise people when they die.

If its the person only job is healer... they are gonna need you to support them in helping them get what they want as well.

I agree that every1 should pull their own weight in a pty and such, if they arent just replace them with someone who is. When i play on my whm if any melee isnt pulling their weight i remove them from the party with this message b4 i do <play name in here> [too weak] [goodbye].. a little harsh... probably but if they dont follow the advice given to them to improve then i feel nothing for them.. but lets face it... there are people who love to leech to gain xp/level.. happens everywhere.
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#4 Jun 20 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm going to have to disagree with the OP.

Some things in XI were possible without healers, it would just make you slower. But really you at least wanted a RDM/BRD/SMN/DNC around if it wasn't a WHM. I liked the play style of XI and hope we have something similar at least mechanic wise.
#5 Jun 20 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Well you have 3 types of support (not counting healing).

FF3 BRDs, who are not even worth the party slot because the party is so small their songs only effect 1-2 characters and it is better with 3 DD than 2 slightly better DD.

BRDs that are equal to a party member. You could get a BRD, you could skip it.

FF11 BRDs, who are so incredibly strong they are must haves.



I'd like the middle version. You can get a BRD and get your melee stronger, but you could also get another melee instead. It gives you options. Maybe you want to feed less TP, then BRD is a good choice. Maybe you want some sleeps, which melee do not have, so BRD is fine. But you never run into the "BRD OR DIE" mindset.
#6 Jun 20 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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In FFXI it was necessary because any other method of HP recovery was very slow, and you could only get decent xp on monsters that could rip through you like a wet tissue.

So it's a pretty easy fix really.

And potions were not always essential. In many games you simply recover a fixed amount of HP at the end of a battle. Sometimes its based on how well you did. Sometimes you have HP drain moves that can be used intermittently.

Don't take it as a given that healing jobs that can refill everyone's HP to full ten times before they run out of MP are needed for a balanced game.
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#7 Jun 20 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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The issue you encounter with making support classes on even level necessity with DDs is that support classes can't solo. If a party would just as soon bring a THF as a BRD, why play BRD, when THF offers so many useful advantages?

Support classes need to be slightly (slightly) more useful than DDs in party situations because they are so much less desirable in solo situations. I will say that FFXI brds are a touch overpowered in parties, but they truly need to be overpowered at least to a degree, or no one would have a good reason to listen to that same midi song over and over and over and over.
#8 Jun 20 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I really have no problem with making support roles slightly better, because as you point out, you still ultimately need to have damage dealers. But I also think that support roles can easily be given abilities that allow them to solo effectively.

I mean the simplest thing to do by far would be just to give them an ability that gives them stat bonuses when they're solo, but there are many more creative ways that they can be made viable soloers.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#9 Jun 20 2009 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Just giving support roles something so they can solo doesn't really solve anything. Some people don't want to solo, so support roles have to be desired, and only way to make them desired is if they are powerful in group play. I didn't see much wrong with the ffxi system, many people don't want to solo (I know I dont lol), but many people want to play an mmo so we can interact, communicate, and use team work to complete similar goals. That being said some people wants to solo, I have no problem with that, but making a support role solo easier and making them less desired in group play is not the answer. Lets face it, parties want the best (min/max kinda thing) and if a bard or any support role wasn't as good as they are, then they would not get in.
#10 Jun 20 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Making every single job completely self-reliant is a pretty lazy way to balance jobs in a teamwork-based game, and is pretty much a slippery slope into lesser distinguished party roles.

As other people have mentioned, this is not a single player game, and things work differently. Support roles have a primary role, and that is to support.


Bards were not the problem in XI, the problem was that meleeburns were too efficient, and healing/mp recovery much too slow to keep up the pace for a fast party.
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#11 Jun 20 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Making every single job completely self-reliant is a pretty lazy way to balance jobs in a teamwork-based game, and is pretty much a slippery slope into lesser distinguished party roles.


No, I disagree. Teamwork does not have to be a matter of varied roles. A party of all damage dealers can operate with teamwork (skillchains, for example). And party roles are not at jeopardy here.

You're going to have to think outside the framework of FFXI on this one.

Quote:
Bards were not the problem in XI, the problem was that meleeburns were too efficient, and healing/mp recovery much too slow to keep up the pace for a fast party.


Bards were not the problem in XI, but doesn't mean that Bards weren't a problem in XI. But regardless I was talking about jobs like RDM and WHM as well.

Quote:
Just giving support roles something so they can solo doesn't really solve anything.


No, it does. Antime brought up the valid contention that making support roles less potent would negatively impact their soloability. That's why I addressed it.

But "I don't want to solo" is not a valid argument. If you don't want to solo, you can join groups. Your concern seems to be that if support roles aren't obscenely powerful in party situations, they won't be welcome there, but no one is talking about making them weaker than other roles. Still slightly stronger even, just less so.

They don't have to be that much better by default.

Let me reiterate. In FFXI a poorly equipped (not to mention skilled) healing/support job is still more desirable in most situations than an exceptionally equipped damage dealer when one or two are not already present.

So one could say, "just make the differences in gear and skill matter more," but all that does on its own is reduce the overall quality of an already sparse population. The dependence on that population should not be as great.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#12 Jun 20 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Let me start off by saying a "poorly skilled rdm" is not more desirable then a "exceptionally equipped damage dealer". Thats a bold statement and it depends on the job of the damage dealer and the level you are leveling at. If you pick up poorly skilled rdm in a merit party with average melee, or even good melee you will die. I'm using poorly since thats your word, the fact is you see support jobs as overpowering in ffxi, and we dont. I see them as very powerful in group play, but I also think thats basically the point of a support jobs role. The role is to "support" others, make everybody better (through haste, or bard songs, or cor rolls etc), and keep the party fluent and alive. I think support jobs is just powerful enough, like every other job if played right.
#13 Jun 20 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I don't know how long you've played FFXI or any of your experiences, but I played for 4 years and for the most part a very mediocre support role of some type is essential even at the expense of an excellent damage dealer. I really doubt many people would agree with your assertion otherwise. Maybe in some merit situations, but frankly merit parties are one of the things that most needs to go in FFXIV. It's more true for important battles, which is what will be pertinent to FFXIV.

And edit to clarify: You're absolutely kidding yourself if you think a well equipped DD is going to take precedence over a RDM even in full AF if it comes down to a LS not having enough sources of refresh and healing. And that's what I'm talking about.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 7:01pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#14 Jun 20 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I have played since ps2 release in the United States just since you kinda asked. Now lets speak logically, a support role uses spells (heal,haste, songs etc), a damage dealer is gear dependent. So think here a rdm in full af1 doesn't really mean anything skillwise if you can play then it should be desired, a damage dealer should need good gear since it uses gear (weapons etc). Now think more logically, There are a ton of damage dealers (not going to name all the jobs), so its going to be a higher need of support then damage dealer. If there was 10 tank jobs and 4 damage dealer jobs then damage dealers will be more desired. Now think a little more logically ok, you can win a fight with tanking and healing with low damage dealers (slower fight but you can win easy), its a very hard fight if you have damage and tank and no healing thats just logic man.

One little side note "I really doubt many people would agree with you" is a very funny statement, because all I see is people agreeing with me and like someone else said not 1 person agreeing with you on here.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 10:18pm by HocusP
#15 Jun 20 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
In the end it comes down to how fights in MMOs go. Mobs WILL be doing a lot of damage to non tank characters and moderate damage to tank characters. The real only feasible way to make support or healing not a real factor in choosing a party is if you either lower the damage mobs do, or lower the HP mobs have, or buff the players some how. In the end all it would amount to is players ripping through rows of mobs.

Mobs will have crushing blows, AoEs, and things like that. The lack of need of a healer is like saying theres a lack of danger in an MMO. One of the benefits of Bards and Redmaegs and their MP regeration was that there were just about NO ways to get it otherwise. In games like WoW you can sit and eat food and regerate HP that way, but theres still plenty of danger of dying in the middle of a battle without a healer.

In the end making it so you can technically have a party full of DD is not a problem with support classes or any other class but a byproduct of how MMO battles are designed.
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#16 Jun 20 2009 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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so what you are saying is you want to eliminate the support role in groups? cause the other way around doesnt work better, you wouldnt want to get a group of 5 support and 1 damage dealer, because all the other dps were uterrly less equiped. There will always be someone bad equiped, and if it has to be the support, well too bad for you, but you still need one. Your problem is just that a brd at lvl 70 in af and lvl 14 ring and empty slot for waist will still be able to play is job "correctly" (except lullaby and elegy), but not a DD or tank. so just make the equipement more important for support and there goes your solution. No need to make them less desirable or anything.

i think needing one in a group is a good thing and makes the thing balanced because nobody would want a rdm for buff/debuff in a group if they could just instead get a Dps that does more damage. i do agree that brd was too powerfull, something like "no brd wtfbbq i leave" shouldnt happen.

btw, i've played ffxi 6 years now, and i know your frustration but making this an argument to validate your point fail.
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#17 Jun 20 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:



No, I disagree. Teamwork does not have to be a matter of varied roles. A party of all damage dealers can operate with teamwork (skillchains, for example). And party roles are not at jeopardy here.

You're going to have to think outside the framework of FFXI on this one.


I'm gonna have go with Kirbster on this one. I have noticed since Tp burns, many jobs were left behind. It didn't matter if the player was skilled or not. Taking away the need for support would pretty much dissolve the need to have different styles of jobs. Why would you ever want a healer or buffer/debuffer if you could just throw more melee classes at it. It's whats going on right now in ffxi. All they look for is 5 melee and 1 healer/buffer. Many classes like smn and blm are rarely invited for pts, because tp burn banks so much more exp.
job roles did get put into jeopardy. You can ask any blm, smn or any job that doesnt fit the tp burn mold. And you want to remove the support class too. 0.o?

My personal opinion is if you try to balance out the jobs too much you end up with what I see in WoW. Priests can hit like mages, paladins can hit as hard as rogues, but the original classes made for damage never got the ability to heal like they can. Their role as DD dissolved because of balance. It seems that they got the shaft in the balancing process. I would see support demanding the ability to parse as much as a warrior in combat, and warriors demanding support abilities. It would be craziness.. CRAZINESS!!



That is my personal opinion. xD

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 10:26pm by DrWhowhatwhenwhereandhow
#18 Jun 20 2009 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't mind support roles, it has been a part of RPGs since Dungeons and Dragons. It's just when you can't do anything without X class is when it becomes a hassle. I'm worried that White Mages will be the only real dedicated healers in FF14 and will be underplayed, thus making lots of non-heal jobs sit on their *** waiting for a precious WHM. I hope there are ways to customize support classes like BRD or Dancer to heal effective enough so people won't cringe with no WHM around. Cause let's face it, healers are ALWAYS underplayed in any mmo.
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#19 Jun 20 2009 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
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imperialvulture wrote:
I don't mind support roles, it has been a part of RPGs since Dungeons and Dragons. It's just when you can't do anything without X class is when it becomes a hassle. I'm worried that White Mages will be the only real dedicated healers in FF14 and will be underplayed, thus making lots of non-heal jobs sit on their *** waiting for a precious WHM. I hope there are ways to customize support classes like BRD or Dancer to heal effective enough so people won't cringe with no WHM around. Cause let's face it, healers are ALWAYS underplayed in any mmo.


You can easily solve this by including several types of main healing classes, whitemage, clerics, priests and so on. The same goes for tanking classes, paladin, white knight, warrior and so on.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 11:18pm by Maldavian
#20 Jun 20 2009 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
imperialvulture wrote:

I don't mind support roles, it has been a part of RPGs since Dungeons and Dragons. It's just when you can't do anything without X class is when it becomes a hassle. I'm worried that White Mages will be the only real dedicated healers in FF14 and will be underplayed, thus making lots of non-heal jobs sit on their *** waiting for a precious WHM. I hope there are ways to customize support classes like BRD or Dancer to heal effective enough so people won't cringe with no WHM around. Cause let's face it, healers are ALWAYS underplayed in any mmo.



You can easily solve this by including several types of main healing classes, whitemage, clerics, priests and so on. The same goes for tanking classes, paladin, white knight, warrior and so on.


that wouldnt solve the problem, cause someone who want to be a healer will just choose of of those 3 instead of selecting the only choise they have. Someone who like to DD wont chose cleric because he has a different names. they need to make class that heals but play completly differently, someone who like to melee might choose to heal as dancer for exemple.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 11:58pm by banzaii
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#21 Jun 20 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Making every single job completely self-reliant is a pretty lazy way to balance jobs in a teamwork-based game, and is pretty much a slippery slope into lesser distinguished party roles.


No, I disagree. Teamwork does not have to be a matter of varied roles. A party of all damage dealers can operate with teamwork (skillchains, for example). And party roles are not at jeopardy here.

You're going to have to think outside the framework of FFXI on this one.


Then why not just eliminate the job system altogether?

As another poster mentioned, this is (kind of) the direction WoW headed, and it totally ruined any kind of unique role that a person might have in a party. It basically dumbed down any sort of role to DPS, Tank, and healer. (and Pally.)

And what's worse, every single class will complain that they want abilities similar to what other classes have. Eventually it's just a giant mushpot of similar jobs that do exactly more or less the same things. And then, when all DPS jobs are mushed together in one large category, it doesn't take long before people start only using the most overpowered one, and it doesn't matter because they're not missing any useful abilities other jobs may have had.

In any MMO, you want specialized roles to keep things interesting and fresh. And more importantly, to tackle different situations in different ways.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 9:27pm by Kirbster
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#22 Jun 20 2009 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
It basically dumbed down any sort of role to DPS, Tank, and healer.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 9:27pm by Kirbster


^^ exact reason why I quit WoW.

Support roles need to be unique and help out the group. You are just as important as the main tank, the main healer, the top DD... without the unique taste of a BRD or DNC or RDM, you just have another bland MMO.

If you wanna do something that another job does, than switch your main job to that one. It's how games work. You don't get off easy for changing your mind at high levels.
#23 Jun 20 2009 at 8:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, let us completely eliminate the need for support/healing roles. Let's turn the entire game into a mindless, strategy-free melee-fest.

As for support jobs being overpowered in parties, as someone mentioned this is kind of a make-up for how lousy they can be on their own (usually).

Finally, I have never seen it written anywhere by SE that a BRD or a COR was required for a party. The player base made it that way with their constant obsession with the -very- best setup.
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#24 Jun 20 2009 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't agree with the logic of making support roles less potent, but I think a more defined reason to have so many different support is a better idea. Make them have specific reasons to want one over the other, but make them even so one isn't way better than the others. I think healing is a necessary evil in all mmo games, but it can be done in unique ways. Lets say there was a melee healer whose heals come from active abilities that required you to be attacking the monster, the attack would deal moderate damage and also heal people on your team, or require a build up first before you release on a single target. Might take awhile to get used to but you get the point. Also if they had a chemist, they could specialize in creating potions to throw at targets for corrosive damage or create a mixture for healing and added defense, or perhaps an elixir that grants greater strength when used.


All I know is please let more than whm this time around be respectable in the healing arts, which in my mind says give summoners their own type of heals either through summons or their own personal spells. Not to mention creating new ones.
#25 Jun 20 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I will say this though, I think SE has finally realized and will change the way the community views as the best setup and be able to manage regardless of the party setup, whether the only support was a single whm, brd or whatever. But I still think one support is always necessary, I mean you wouldnt create a party without anyone that dealt damage right? Something is necessary.
#26 Jun 20 2009 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think they should make it an offline FPS so we don't even have to party!
#27 Jun 20 2009 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Jobangles wrote:
I think they should make it an offline FPS so we don't even have to party!


ROFL
#28 Jun 20 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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Who need support roles when you can D-D-DOUBLEKILL.
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#29 Jun 20 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Default
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****, remove healers and just lay down respawning health packs.
#30 Jun 20 2009 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
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Wow to all the comments on TP burn parties.

Anyone else here remember waaaaay back in the day when Manaburn parties started the whole 'burn' party thing? And all the melee DDs were upset that the only way to get uber exp was to be a BLM SMN RDM BRD?

Or perhaps the old 'Arrow Burn' parties where a group of rangers and a healer and a support just ripped through the exp?

Tp burns came about because of player whining about how over powered the other jobs were, and thus the TP burn ended up at the top of the charts in ToAU and WotG.

As far as the OP's original statement: no, a single DD should not be able to bring the same amount of benefit to a party as a class that specifies in party abilities. It would make the whole idea of a support class moot.

The DD classes will no doubt have an easier time soloing, while the healer or support classes will have a harder time soloing, but an easier time partying. That just makes sense.

Yeah, playing with a party entirely composed of DDs should be viable, but in NO WAY should they be equivalent to a well rounded party comprising a tank, healer, support, and specialized DDs. That just makes sense. If it doesn't then pray tell why.
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#31 Jun 20 2009 at 10:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:


Don't take it as a given that healing jobs that can refill everyone's HP to full ten times before they run out of MP are needed for a balanced game.


They aren't needed for balance. They are needed to make it interesting and create a niche for different classes.
#32 Jun 20 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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you almost make it sound like being support is a sin or something <didnt read thw whoe thread so if it wasnt your intention, which it probably wasnt, then im sorry>

the difference is that in other RPG's you can overlevel yourelf to where nothing you fight would really cause you to need a huge amount of healing. however in an mmo if you just stay in one spot killing the same thing over and over again...well its not nearly as productive, you kinda have to change places every few levels, meaning the challenge is at about the same level, if not higher. the constant incrase in difficulty, which SHOULD be there, requires you to have a balanced party <assuming your in an area where you even need a party...rumor has it soloing will be much more possible in XIV...thats a rumor as far as i know though> meaning you NEED support roles. without support, you fall over. without the hilt, your holding the blade of the sword causing you to cut your own hand. without a fourth leg a chair is unstable and you could fall. without your brain your muscles are useless.

support rolls should most definately not be toned down or unnecissary. who wants to play a job thats unnecissary. or think of it like this


EX:
WHM. the supportiest of all support jobs. if they werent essential for a party, if a party could do just fine with 6 DD's or whatever...then nobody would ever play whm. why? because they wouldnt be able to get past level X. they are too fragile to fight on their own for very long. sure they could compensate by beefing whm a little...but that is just utterly against that job. whm was never meant to be on its own really, it was never meant to hit hard, it was never meant to take a hit...and if they made a whm that way, well imo it woudnt really be a whm. and they WOULDNT do that since whm is one of FF's onldest jobs, they arent going to change the nature of a job just so they would have less support power. same goes for many/all support jobs...if a supporting role wasnt absolutely needed, they would all be "out of the job" so to speak.

BRD was used in an example earlier. now IIRC BRD was always nice to have, it was awesome, there was always a definite difference. however to say it was necissary? no. whm is probably the only support job that was absolutely necissary to a party. it was never, to my memory, BRD or bust. it was "well if there is a BRD im gonna grab him/her up asap, but if not then i can make do with some other job"

SMN is an odd ball. it <or more precisely its summons> could fill any roll, support, DD, and tank <didnt one have blink? and didnt another have stoneskin? not to mention is better an avatar take a hit than a party member> whatever, you name it, smn <err, well the summons anyway> could be anything the party needed atm. im iffy to call it support, yet at the same time it could very well be more support than even whm depending on how you look at it. and again, it certainly wasnt summoner or bust. especially since picking a summoner at certain times had to do with what summons they had/didnt have


what im trying to say is, the only one i can see you complaing about as being overpowered, which i dont agree with, is whm seeing as its the only "get it or bust" job in a party. however, as i already explained, for both balance reasons and for the sake of whm's being usable at all, it needs to be essential


im sorry, if this isnt what you meant, i didnt read the whole thread <im reeeeeaaaaally tired atm.in fact i think im gonna hit the hay now. only read the original post> so im sorry if what i said is irrelevant, but thats what i got from your OP
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#33 Jun 21 2009 at 12:25 AM Rating: Default
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Sigh. Alright, I think I'm going to pass at trying to address every argument. I do notice many people still seem to be thinking of this in the framework of FFXI, and I'm not going to reply to those kinds of comments. It's not analogous.

Quote:
Then why not just eliminate the job system altogether?

As another poster mentioned, this is (kind of) the direction WoW headed, and it totally ruined any kind of unique role that a person might have in a party. It basically dumbed down any sort of role to DPS, Tank, and healer. (and Pally.)


That's basically all the roles in FFXI as well. And it's a silly system, because it doesn't add any real strategy to the game. It just adds an inconvenience when you can't find the role you need. And I'm not saying that that sort of setup shouldn't work, or even be the best. But it shouldn't be so damned essential to every major fight and most regular ones.

The general problem most of the dissenters seem to be having is that they confuse strategy with party setup. And I blame that on the way FFXI (and other MMOs) ingrained this idea into them.

Strategy should evolve within the battle, but so much of victory and combat in FFXI is decided before the mob even appears. That's not how it should be.

And by making support roles so invaluable, it just reinforces this system of tanks, healers and damagers. Everyone is still basically just one of the three because those are three major tenants of combat: offense, defense, and recovery.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you think it's strategic and fun to have to piecemeal a functional party together, then good for you. There are already a dozen MMOs where you can do that, so by all means, have at them. But some of us would prefer if the strategic elements occurred primarily within the battles themselves, and that REQUIRES that all jobs are proportionately balanced.

And this doesn't subtract teamwork or any other element of gameplay along with it. It doesn't get rid of job roles. All it does is make it so that you can party with whoever the **** you want to regardless of their job role. And if you can't see why this is so, then I'll say again, you're probably stuck in the FFXI mindset (or WoW perhaps).

Quote:
But I still think one support is always necessary, I mean you wouldnt create a party without anyone that dealt damage right? Something is necessary.


As I've already begun to outline somewhat, all combat can generally be broken down into offense, defense, recovery, and sometimes other support. The thing is, nearly all jobs can have all of these elements within them. You don't need jobs that specifically recover if everyone can recover. It goes without saying that almost all jobs have some level of offense and defense... why can't they all have some level of recovery (not counting kneeling or the ability to use potions)? It's about the way you combine these elements and allow them to manifest that makes a job-- not the role. A job is about style, and in identifying a way in which we can interact with the world.

Is a DRG's role so different from a SAM or a DRK? No, not really. But they have distinctly different styles of doing things. And if a DRK wants to heal through Drains, a SAM focuses his mind, or a DRG's wyvern uses a healing breath... is their identity threatened? No, it isn't. If a WHM has strong Holy magic, does he threaten the role of other DDs?

Jobs will always be present in spite of roles, believe it or not. And even if we balance all jobs, roles will still be present. It's just that certain roles won't be 100% vital.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 1:35am by Kachi
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#34 Jun 21 2009 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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I'm thinking in the framework of good multiplayer design while keeping in mind the spirit and preferences of the majority of the target audience of FFXIV, something you apparently have no grasp on.



I think you'd just be happier playing Diablo 3. Everybody does damage there, and there are no party roles. You seem like you'd prefer XIV to be almost more... arcadey than an MMO.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 2:36am by Kirbster
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#35 Jun 21 2009 at 2:08 AM Rating: Default
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I'm thinking in the framework of good multiplayer design while keeping in mind the spirit and preferences of the majority of the target audience of FFXIV, something you apparently have no grasp on.



I think you'd just be happier playing Diablo 3. Everybody does damage there, and there are no party roles. You seem like you'd prefer XIV to be almost more... arcadey than an MMO.


You're why I quit FFXI - the community is so against everything that isn't FFXI, it was sickening at times. Demonizing some one doesn't refute their point. People like variety in their MMO's. You call FFXI variety - I say it's just the same as any other MMO out there as the OP stated(oh! gasp, inc. flames). So if you're going to make claims - back them up.

Read the OP again - he never mentioned any of these "arcadey"[sic] things.

I seriously hope FFXIV doesn't end up like the awful grindfest that was in FFXI - I want real variety. Not 20 some odd classes that have such a defined niche they don't work in any other part of the game.

EX: I want 20 some odd defined classes that can be used any where in the game (soloing, any type of "boss" type mob) with maybe just going at the fight with a different strategy depending on your class make-up. Then again balancing that would be **** - so maybe support rolls that can't do anything other than support wont be such a bad thing depending on how the combat system plays out.


Also - I had a level 60 BLM (highest level) in FFXI. I quit because of the community and because I couldn't take all of the waiting and the slow combat. (No combat music while casting made me quite upset too >.<)
#36 Jun 21 2009 at 2:09 AM Rating: Default
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I personally think it will be many jobs again in FF14, but this time around they will have the class groups a lot more balanced then in FFXI. The DD’s in the game with dash out roughly same DPS, the support classes will give equal benefit to a party but in completely different ways, the healers will recover the party at an equal rate but in different ways. Also the tanks will be equally viable in their own way. This “equal viable” for party invite is crucial in FF14 and can be done with some effort from the developers.

This will be great for party formation but at the same time, the classes will be so different that everyone is viable also in raid situations where you will have more then 18+ members.

The other part is harder to solve if not impossible. And that is people tend to choose a DD class over support, healer or tank. There is really nothing you can do about this issue unless you remove the concept of having “tank””heal””DD””and “support”. I believe you call this an offline “FPS” game ^^
#37 Jun 21 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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Imo any sense of strategy would fade away if every job would be able to deal damage, heal and tank.......
The diversity of jobs and the importance of a good setup and teamplay is what makes a game thats group based fun.
I always liked to discuss good setups for boss battles bcnm's etc with my linkshell and friends, there were always many ways of defeating a bcnm... once i had completed a mission id always help others that had yet to complete it and it was always a new experience because of the different setup's.
That would all fade away if you make it so that every single job can tank heal and deal damage... imo thats plain dumb and takes the fun,strategy and the rest of the good things out of the game.
#38 Jun 21 2009 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry, but Bards are not needed for everything. That kind of mindset mostly comes from the lazy DD who wants their ego stroked by Minuet and March. You can do the large majority of things without a BRD - sure, a BRD would likely make it easier/more efficient, but good players can generally do without.
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#39 Jun 21 2009 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
I need to agree with whoever said that a problem was that jobs were too locked in on FFXI... well rigid lets say. BUt I have a problem with "Let every DD job do the same damage" because then it turns into cosmetic preferences on all fronts. At least in WoW if you had say a Shaman you could be a healign shaman, or a melee shaman. Or if you had a Warrior you could be a tank or a massive damage dealer. Or if you had a Warlock.. well you always did damage as a warlock..

Another problem was there was little to do but do DD. No crowd control or anything of that nature. However, I was a thief so I am a bit jaded when it comes to all of this.
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#40 Jun 21 2009 at 3:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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tallseth wrote:

Also - I had a level 60 BLM (highest level) in FFXI. I quit because of the community and because I couldn't take all of the waiting and the slow combat. (No combat music while casting made me quite upset too >.<)


That's fascinating and everything, but many people like the game for the same reasons you dislike it, and disagree with this idea. Have you read any of the other posts?

And I'm not demonizing him, I'm pointing out that the changes he's suggesting, making all classes self-reliant, is much more along the terms of a multiplayer dungeon crawler type of game, and destroys the team dynamic that people enjoyed about FFXI.

Quote:
I seriously hope FFXIV doesn't end up like the awful grindfest that was in FFXI - I want real variety. Not 20 some odd classes that have such a defined niche they don't work in any other part of the game.


I want less grind as well, but you're exaggerating a wee bit on the latter bit there. If not, give me an example of a job that has such a niche that they were completely useless in any other given situation; before you start calling me out on not backing up obvious statements.

Also you might be pleased to know that they gave casters battle music years ago.

And I'm also in endgame WoW, so you can stop labeling me.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 4:10am by Kirbster
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#41 Jun 21 2009 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I mentioned this in another thread, but I really hope that support roles are less potent (see: overpowered) in FFXIV.

In FFXI support roles are essential for any party to function smoothly.

Ultimately whether you invite a healer or not should depend more on whether or not you like the person, or at least how -good- of a healer they are, rather than the fact that they are essential to you getting anything done. A healer should carry the weight of a damage dealer, maybe a tad more, but not be as unquestionably more valuable than a damage dealer as they are in FFXI.

If you have a party that's 5/6, a great damage dealer should always be preferable to a poor or mediocre healer.


I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. You realize the problem with support classes isn't the healer jobs, but the buffer jobs BRD and COR. As for your example, which 5 people do you have already? DNC is a great substitution for parties that lack a support job. Because you don't need a BRD or COR except for merits in all seriousness. Merits are so cut-throat you need faster kills or you'll lose your camp because you kill slower.

Personally for FFXIV, I like to see more balance all across the board. I'm hoping SE won't make the same mistakes again. Their job adjustments only made things worse depending on your job. So no, it's not really about support jobs at all. It's about SE balancing all their jobs to be on equal footing. DD's, healers, and support jobs alike.
#42 Jun 21 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Default
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CalArvian wrote:
I need to agree with whoever said that a problem was that jobs were too locked in on FFXI... well rigid lets say. BUt I have a problem with "Let every DD job do the same damage" because then it turns into cosmetic preferences on all fronts. At least in WoW if you had say a Shaman you could be a healign shaman, or a melee shaman. Or if you had a Warrior you could be a tank or a massive damage dealer. Or if you had a Warlock.. well you always did damage as a warlock..

Another problem was there was little to do but do DD. No crowd control or anything of that nature. However, I was a thief so I am a bit jaded when it comes to all of this.


In WoW you have all the DD doing the same damage. In the end it’s about you choosing what _kind_ of DD you want to play and _not_ go for a specific DD class that dashes out most DPS. Personally when I choose a DD class I do it because I like or love the class in itself, not because "Oh ya this class will be on top of the damage meters, and that is the reason I choose to play it."

Not only do you create a imbalance between the DD's but you also making it hard for all the DD's to get a fair and square chance to get invited. You should dash out max DPS because you are a _skilled_ player, not because your _class_ was doing uber damage without you putting in any skill in the equation.

So, no thanks to give preferential treatment to some DD's and leave others in the cold even though the players that play them are skilled.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 11:17am by Maldavian
#43 Jun 21 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Since the OP feels that folks are still thinking within the confines of FFXI, let's take a moment and look at different support classes from two other current MMOs on the market.

LOTRO:

Minstrel (Back line) - Main healer (reactionary), provides minimal group buffs, is able to do excellent damage while sacrificing healing power in Warspeech stance.

Runekeeper (Back line/kiter)- Hybrid healer/DPS (HoT/DoT), almost no group buffs but some individual, has to build up to do good healing or DPS, but can't do both at the same time.

Captain (Front line) - Pure Support/back-up tank, best group buffs, minimal healing ability, decent damage output

WAR (Order):

Archmage (Back line/kiter) - Hybrid healer/DPS, works a lot like the LOTRO Runekeeper in that you have to build up for good healing or damage, but not both at the same time, decent group buffs

Warrior Priest (Front line) - Melee healer/DPS, must be fighting to get good heals, decent group buffs

Runepriest (Back line) - Hybrid healer/DPS/AoE, can do both good damage and decent healing, decent group buffs

LOTRO and WAR are interesting games to look at and compare. On the one hand, you have LOTRO, which is PvE centric, much like FFXI and FFXIV. WAR on the other hand is balanced for PvP. Now that we've looked at these classes, we can take a look at the OP's suggestion that in FFXIV, support classes should not be necessary for group play, and not think in terms of FFXI.

I've played WHM, Minstrel, Runekeeper, Captain, and Archmage. I am a support junkie. I truly enjoy playing a healing class in the MMOs that I play. While I strongly disagree with the OP's suggestion that support classes shouldn't be necessary, I can also see a point to filling that last slot with someone who can do excellent damage. My thoughts are, why not have both?

As much as I love WHM, it is severely lacking compared to other classes when it comes to damage output. I've been playing DNC recently, and that's been a blast. Survivability on top of pretty ok damage output = good times. My favorite healer to play though is my Minstrel. I can sit on the back line and keep my party up, and if more damage is needed, or if we're just grinding trash mobs, I can flip on Warspeech, equip my whackin mace, and go to town doing excellent burst damage. I have the OPTION to do damage with my Minstrel, which isn't something I have with WHM. The same can be said for WAR's support classes, and if anything, they skew for more damage capabilities for support since that game is geared for PvP more than PvE. The main point here is that outside of FFXI, support classes are more hybridized and able to fulfill more than one role in a party if needed.

Now, adding greater damage capabilities to support classes is definitely welcome, but there has to be a balance. Letting support bring more to the party table is great, but if a class can put out good damage, heal, and buff their allies with no penalties whatsoever, that's a little OP. There have to be drawbacks to being able to do all of those things, otherwise, everyone would just run around as the same class and there would be no challenge to the game. Given how the devs have said that battle is likely to be more strategic anyways, along with their dislike of the current *-burn practice that's sprung up, I think that party play in FFXIV is going to require a balanced party, tuned to each situation, but with flexibility to handle the unexpected which is what I would like to see.
#44 Jun 21 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
And I'm not demonizing him, I'm pointing out that the changes he's suggesting, making all classes self-reliant, is much more along the terms of a multiplayer dungeon crawler type of game, and destroys the team dynamic that people enjoyed about FFXI.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 4:10am by Kirbster


I agree with Kirb. I don't wanna sound like a know-it-all, but this is an MMO, and in MMO's you group up, you interact with the community, you work together. You can't solo well as a WHM or BRD because you are not meant to deal damage, you are there to help others. Even though you can solo more efficiently in XIV, this doesn't necessarily apply to healers/support classes. For DD, you should be glad to party with these guys looking for you because they will reduce downtime to a minimum. Group up with one person that can kill/heal things and keep the other alive/supported and you'll both be having a great time.

I played a Holy Priest in WoW, and I prefered to do this. Grab a buddy and have some fun together for f***'s sake.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 6:20pm by dragoonberries
#45 Jun 21 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Finally, I have never seen it written anywhere by SE that a BRD or a COR was required for a party. The player base made it that way with their constant obsession with the -very- best setup.


You do know that it will be the exact same people in XIV, so you already know exactly how XIV will go. Any support job that increases DoT by a certain amount will become must-have.

That is why support jobs are so incredibly hard to design. Too weak, SMN version 2.0. Too strong, BRD version 2.0. You have to manage to balance it exactly the way that inviting it doesn't lower your progress speed BUT doesn't increase it much more than a healer or DD.

To be honest the only wrong things on BRD and COR was the haste/DA/attack boosts. If those were removed I think the "must have" would stop and they would just be used for additional refresh, sleep, slow, accuracy, exp, and such. The question of course is if people would want BRDs just for elegy + madrigal + ballad, and CORs just for hunter's roll and corsair's roll.
#46 Jun 21 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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No people would not want bards or cors if it was just that. Slow is really not needed in exp anyway, same as accuracy (gear improves this enough, matter a fact in exp parties I only see it used in low level) and refresh is not really needed. Another problem is no one would want a brd and rdm would just get more desired they have refresh, can heal way better, has convert, and can slow and sleep better. Also a dd is better then just slow and sleep and a little refresh. This brd only attitude is not exactly true either, some people are like that, but you cant stop some people. There are some people that says ridill melee only, or nin only that doesnt mean ridill and nins are overpowered. Parties can do find with no brd or cor or even rdm, sure its harder but it can and has been done. People just want to min/max parties and it will always be like that, if it wasnt brd or cor then it would be something else to min/max the party. There will always be a min/max even if brd or cor or even rdm wasn't in the game, people will still find a way and setup to min/max and will say that setup only.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 8:03pm by HocusP
#47 Jun 21 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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I can't envision a party system in any MMORPG that doesn't involve a tank and a healer. If the mobs hit for so little damage that any class can soak the hits and a minor offheal is all that's needed to keep things running smoothly, it would have to be pretty lame, dull, easy-*** group content. In fact, it wouldn't even be content tuned for groups. It would be a party of people gang-beating mobs that were tuned to be killed solo. If content is tuned so that groups are required to accomplish more than a faceroll jaunt through the scary world of mobs that die in 3 seconds, it means that in any given group you've got two critical roles...two roles that for many players represent the antithesis of what they enjoy...and without those roles, the party can't function.

One of the most fun things about an "ideal" group is when you've got a solid tank, solid healer, on-the-ball dps, and some tasty buffs that you can notice in your own performance. It's fun. Support classes are cool. I can't ever see myself playing one full-time, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate them. Healers, to me, are not support classes. A support class is a class that brings primarily buffs and/or debuffs to the table (ie. BRD). They can do a bit of damage, they can do some healing, but their main appeal is their diversity and the "behind the scenes" goodies they toss around that makes the group that much more effective.

However...

When content is tuned in such a way that a third highly specialized role becomes the requirement, something is broken.

Reducing the impact of support classes doesn't necessarily mean those classes have to be nerfed, or that their support options are so trivial that nobody cares if they're along or not. Quite the contrary...support classes have to bring some chewy buffs and/or some potent debuffs, otherwise their value to the group will be trivial relative to another hard hitting dps. What it does mean is that content is tuned in such a way that no one class feels unable to function properly unless they have a particular buff available.
#48Kachi, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 10:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sub-default? Really? The karma system is aimed at getting rid of trolls and spam, guys, not censoring people on the basis that you disagree with them. lern 2 rate
#49 Jun 26 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Okay I will play a little devil's advocate. Lets pretend support roles are no longer needed in "leveling play" xp, merit, or whatever this new system of skill-ups will be. Cool now whatever is there to invite can be invited. O I see a Whm seeking nah get the drg whm damage sucks. Ok SE sees that whm rdm etc.. are poor damage dealers so they "balance" them out and boost there damage. So now you have jobs that are absolutely desired over all others for there flexibility and safety. Because no one will bother leveling a support role unless there is some sort of advantage to doing so. This usually comes in the form of being desired in a party, and pretty solid need in events.

Your idea is not bad per se it just needs some fleshing out. Creating conditions where a group of DD do well without support during the grind is fine. But inviting support jobs should give the party an increase in gain and safety if only slightly. HP recovery as well as MP recovery out of battle can be fast, we want to hold on to the way 11 does this. But this isn't 11 and I am really hoping for a faster paced game. So we will have to let go of the old mechanics.

I am super old-school rdm I do remember when rdm was NOT desired in xp. Before many of us understood mp longevity.

What I would like to see is the need for healing being much less in basic battles, where everyone fights and support occasionally tosses a cure. Faster paced fights, and the elimination of single target buffs.

From what we have seen and it being pretty limited, it looks like we will be doing more fights with multiple enemies. And SE said this much in an interview. So this will probably lead to many more group based abilities for everyone. So our definition of "support" class may change and party dynamics may change as well. Every party may absolutely need crowd control, damage control, and healing. Which may come in a different package than anticipated.

Right now its way to early to pinpoint anything. Hopefully we can get more in game footage that we can tear apart and glean some idea of the direction SE is taking.
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#50 Jun 26 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Just to point out, that if melee burns are so efficient that their mage portions cannot keep up on Mp while healing them... then they are not that efficient.

Believe it or not, some people enjoy playing support roles, not everyone Wants to be a mindless DD. Take away support roles or make them less Support oriented, and it will discourage a lot of people.

This is why i believe they offered whm the best melee skill of the mages (not counting Blu) Whm is a job thats devoted to healing, a hardcore support character, but has the most powerful Mage weapon skill and the Best melee capabilty of the mages

Adding a bit more melee potential to mages, ok, take away the support aspect, no thanks.

If you have 20 jobs, that are all self reliant, then why have 20 jobs? Why not just have 1 or 5. The 20 jobs offers Variety, thats the whole point of having 20 jobs, its 20 Options to choose from.

Sure some jobs are preferred to others, sure some jobs get shunned, but thats because of the Community, not because of their capability.

A pup for instance, is often shunned from a party, however a Pup can be a very good DD. With the Rng frame, their Pup cah skillchain very effectivly and cause quite good damage. With the Whm frame, they can heal, sometimes better then a Real Whm. Yet since they have been labeled as a soloer, they are often overlooked.

Sorry, i would not want to play a game where you had 20 job choices, and each one was 90% the same with just a few variations thrown in. That would be the grind.
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#51 Jun 26 2009 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I...don't see the Healer (Say WHM) as a support role. I see that as a requirement. RDM BRD and COR to me, are supporting roles. I lost count of the amoutn of times I wanted a Merit party but because we couldn't find two BRDs, everyone would prefer to LFG for hours rather than muddle on without them.

I do not want the fate of a party to hang on the decision of one key role like this and I certainly hope SE fix this, because it was very depressing in FFXI.
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