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Make support roles less potent.Follow

#52 Jun 26 2009 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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As others have mentioned, somewhat in passing, if you make support contribution equal to DD contribution in that there is actually no need for support then there is really no reason to play support. Anyone who has played a support role knows that it is not only harder to do than DD in a party but is also excruciatingly slow doing anything solo. If you put these huge roadblocks in front of support jobs and then on top of that eliminate the need for them in parties you're going to totally kill the support jobs, nobody will play them at all.

#53 Jun 26 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
As others have mentioned, somewhat in passing, if you make support contribution equal to DD contribution in that there is actually no need for support then there is really no reason to play support. Anyone who has played a support role knows that it is not only harder to do than DD in a party but is also excruciatingly slow doing anything solo. If you put these huge roadblocks in front of support jobs and then on top of that eliminate the need for them in parties you're going to totally kill the support jobs, nobody will play them at all.


Exactly, and the only thing I have heard was "give support jobs abilities to let them solo easier". Problem is not everyone wants to solo, some would rather enjoy the community. Every role is a need is a party, I dont see why support shouldn't be a need, tank,dd,support are all needs. Support is just more desired then dd because there are so many dd jobs vs how many support jobs there is. If a support job was looking for a party, you better snag him up quick, because a dd can always be picked up later. Same goes if there was 10 support jobs and 4 dd jobs, then dd would be more desired as you could always pick up a support later. That being said like already stated many times, support should be more desirable in group play because thats where they specialize in. "Support Job", what are they supporting solo? There whole role is to support others, so they should be awesome in group play.
#54 Jun 26 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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The reason, mostly likely, why the OP wants to remove the need of support is because in most MMOs but especially FFXI it's incredibly difficult to get both a tank and a support job in one group...it can take hours. That is like treating the symptoms while ignoring the sickness.

What we need, instead, is to give people more incentive to play the support and tanking classes so the ratio of DD to Support/Tank is lower. Here's a couple ideas:

1. Make a couple tank and support jobs more simple so that it doesn't take so much attention on what you are doing to play.

2. Make the combat aspect of of playing support a bit more fun. Mythic created a system where the support HAD to go on the offensive in Warhammer in order to be effective healers. I wasn't a total fan of that particular mechanic but it was a step in the right direction and from what I can tell it brought more people to support classes.

3. Make every class a hybrid (of sorts). If every class could also double as something else it would make getting a group together much simpler. Example: lets say my group has enough DD but is still looking for a tank and a healer. We find a tank but not a healer and there's another good DD out there looking for a party. If I could somehow double as a healer we could take the DD and set off to level...or do whatever it is we were planning on doing. It might not work well for a FF if they are trying to stick to the original job system but it's a good idea for a MMO.
#55 Jun 26 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
1. Make a couple tank and support jobs more simple so that it doesn't take so much attention on what you are doing to play.


Or make more tank/support jobs, with 2 jobs only really able to tank, of course it took forever to find one, same goes for support. Its more DD jobs in the game then support and tank jobs combined, which is why there is easy to get dd, and not for the others.

Quote:
3. Make every class a hybrid (of sorts). If every class could also double as something else it would make getting a group together much simpler. Example: lets say my group has enough DD but is still looking for a tank and a healer. We find a tank but not a healer and there's another good DD out there looking for a party. If I could somehow double as a healer we could take the DD and set off to level...or do whatever it is we were planning on doing. It might not work well for a FF if they are trying to stick to the original job system but it's a good idea for a MMO.


The only problem with this is balancing, and making sure its not overpowering. Its easy to make an unbalanced game if you could double as two roles and be successful at both.
#56 Jun 26 2009 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Or make more tank/support jobs, with 2 jobs only really able to tank, of course it took forever to find one, same goes for support.


This.

With the sheer number of DD jobs, they were a dime a dozen in comparison to the more "valued" jobs.
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#57 Jun 26 2009 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:

Or make more tank/support jobs, with 2 jobs only really able to tank, of course it took forever to find one, same goes for support. Its more DD jobs in the game then support and tank jobs combined, which is why there is easy to get dd, and not for the others.


I don't think that would help any more though. People don't just spread themselves out between the jobs evenly like osmosis. They go to what they like doing and most people don't like tanking or support jobs. In theory adding more jobs to support and tank could bring a few players in their ranks but it might just take people that might play one form of tank to another. What really needs to happen is make the roles of tanking and support more appealing...if that includes adding more tank and support jobs, great.

HocusP wrote:
The only problem with this is balancing, and making sure its not overpowering. Its easy to make an unbalanced game if you could double as two roles and be successful at both.


You're right, it would make balancing much harder but it's still doable. I would hate for them to avoid things simply because it makes it harder to balance. I think a good starting template to balance jobs is to put them up against each other PvP. Ideally any two jobs fighting each other should drop dead at the same time. I don't know of any development team that judges it that way and I think that is a mistake. After that you can get more into the details of various spells and abilities in PvE.
#58 Jun 26 2009 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Or make more tank/support jobs, with 2 jobs only really able to tank, of course it took forever to find one, same goes for support. Its more DD jobs in the game then support and tank jobs combined, which is why there is easy to get dd, and not for the others.


But when you need twice/thrice as many DD's as you need tanks/support...?

Might get a different kind of problem there: too many tanks, too many support, too few dd.
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#59 Jun 26 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think that would help any more though. People don't just spread themselves out between the jobs evenly like osmosis. They go to what they like doing and most people don't like tanking or support jobs. In theory adding more jobs to support and tank could bring a few players in their ranks but it might just take people that might play one form of tank to another. What really needs to happen is make the roles of tanking and support more appealing...if that includes adding more tank and support jobs, great.


This is correct, increasing the lore to play a support or tank job will help. Thing was, people could get tired of playing a certain dd job, and go play another because they had options. Tanks and supports really didn't have this option, if they got tired of playing there support or tank job, they most likely had to switch to a whole new role. DD was always there because if they got tired of playing mnk, maybe they switched to drg, or maybe drk, they had many options. If you gave support and tank as many options or more options like dd had, then it would be more balanced as to what roles are there. Yes, it could take people from one tank job to another but most likely if they were a tank or support, it was because they liked that job. If a pld was a pld, he usually loved pld, same as nin, and for the support, so if they added more options, it would bring a whole new wave of players to that role.

Balancing is probally the most important issue, all mmos have. The main objective from day one, is probally make an balanced good to play MMO. This being said, the easiest way to make it balanced is to have people stay in their role. Now that being said, there also should be a way player could dabble (aka subjobs) into other roles, but allowing players to do 2/3 of the roles (support, tank, dd), successfully in a group is an easy way to throw off the balance. Would have to be very carefully implemented and they would have to be willing to put all there eggs in one basket to attempt this in full force. An not balanced game is the quickest way to make a failure of an mmo from the start.

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But when you need twice/thrice as many DD's as you need tanks/support...?

Might get a different kind of problem there: too many tanks, too many support, too few dd.


This is absolutely true, i'm not saying there should be the same number of dd jobs as tank and support. All I am saying is a little more options (think I said 1 more tank job and probally 1 more support), there should be more dd then anything else (since you need them more), but not this many more. Two tank jobs is going to be an shortage everytime, same for support (even tho support did get help like dnc etc).

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 11:38pm by HocusP
#60 Jun 27 2009 at 1:18 AM Rating: Default
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Will address other points later.

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As others have mentioned, somewhat in passing, if you make support contribution equal to DD contribution in that there is actually no need for support then there is really no reason to play support.


See, this seems to be a fundamental misconception/attitude that is contributing to why people can't understand what I'm saying.

Yes, I am saying that support roles should not be -needed-. I'm even saying that healers should not be -needed-. And one could even argue that in FFXI they aren't necessarily. I have seen examples of efficient parties without dedicated healers-- where everyone was able to mitigate damage through shadows, DRG healing, /dnc, etc. They weren't ideal but they were able to manage with very specialized setups that focused on self-sufficiency. And somehow, the importance of teamwork and strategy was not at all lessened (increased, in fact).

So I don't see it as a problem at all if there is no -need- for support roles.

But no reason to play? That's ridiculous. You should play a job/role because you WANT to. Jobs like Bard and White Mage shouldn't be so popular purely on the basis that they are vital, but because people like those jobs.

In FFXI these jobs/roles are only necessary because HP/MP recuperation is impossibly slow otherwise. This is an easy fix. And I'll say for the umpteenth time that support roles can be made VERY DESIRABLE without being made ESSENTIAL.
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#61 Jun 27 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Yes, I am saying that support roles should not be -needed-. I'm even saying that healers should not be -needed-. And one could even argue that in FFXI they aren't necessarily. I have seen examples of efficient parties without dedicated healers-- where everyone was able to mitigate damage through shadows, DRG healing, /dnc, etc. They weren't ideal but they were able to manage with very specialized setups that focused on self-sufficiency. And somehow, the importance of teamwork and strategy was not at all lessened (increased, in fact).


Let me guess, you all had /nin? Blink shouldn't substitute for a healer or tank. I won't stand here and claim your ideas are bad, but this is something I most definetly wouldn't want in FFXIV. Instead of reinventing the wheel, I think they'll work out alot of the issues we had with the need for support jobs, healers and tanks through the job system. Subbing things like brd or whm in FFXI gave very little in most cases, but that's something that might change this time around. Instead of making support/healer/tank roles less potent, they can easily add some of their roles to more classes, and also allow people to borrow more abilities, skills and spells from them in a more potent state. That way, while not being optimal or sufficient at "max level" end-game content, they could at least do well in a level up/merit/questing/story/bcnm party.
#62 Jun 27 2009 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Would be nice if every DD could tank and there was no real tank role... maybe not, but it would solve the no tank issue once and for all!
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#63 Jun 27 2009 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Let me guess, you all had /nin?


If everyone had been /nin, then no one could heal. I mean, did you stop reading halfway through the sentence where I said that there were DRG that used healing breath and people with /dnc?

I think subjobs will essentially be gone in favor of a more fluid mix and match system where you can combine abilities and traits more freely (the "Blue Mage" system), which actually dates back to original Playstation RPGs at the latest.

SE almost always tries to reinvent the wheel.

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#64 Jun 27 2009 at 1:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
But no reason to play? That's ridiculous. You should play a job/role because you WANT to. Jobs like Bard and White Mage shouldn't be so popular purely on the basis that they are vital, but because people like those jobs.

In FFXI these jobs/roles are only necessary because HP/MP recuperation is impossibly slow otherwise. This is an easy fix. And I'll say for the umpteenth time that support roles can be made VERY DESIRABLE without being made ESSENTIAL.


Oh sure you can play whatever you like but you are promoting the crippling of support jobs. A fundamental change in their personality. You would be changing their job/role into something nobody would want to play. That is why there would be no reason to play because nobody would want to play them. Why go through the torture of playing a support class if you are just as expendable as any DD.
#65 Jun 27 2009 at 2:06 AM Rating: Default
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Uh, you know there are actually people who just like the idea of playing as a support role? There are people who just like the idea of being a White Mage, or a Bard.

A crippling? No-- they would still be great contributions to a party.

A fundamental personality change? That's a laughable assertion. They would still be centrally focused on supporting other players.

Something that no one would want to play? I very much doubt that. No one would play it purely because it was in such high demand, but people would still want to play those jobs.

You presume that support roles are torture. They are not necessarily torturous just because they were in FFXI. I think it says something (negative) about your attitude if you're torturing yourself while playing a video game. No job should be torturous.

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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#66 Jun 27 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I hope they stay potent. I left FFXI as a Bard, and I want to be one again so bad. And not because people love them, I really enjoy the class itself. I really hope they have a bard in FFXIV.
#67 Jun 27 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think that would help any more though. People don't just spread themselves out between the jobs evenly like osmosis. They go to what they like doing and most people don't like tanking or support jobs. In theory adding more jobs to support and tank could bring a few players in their ranks but it might just take people that might play one form of tank to another. What really needs to happen is make the roles of tanking and support more appealing...if that includes adding more tank and support jobs, great.


I went more towards tank/support jobs, but had to move on to DD because there was a very limited selection. That's the issue FFXI is suffering right now with tanks, most of the people who wanted to play PLD or NIN already have.

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Uh, you know there are actually people who just like the idea of playing as a support role? There are people who just like the idea of being a White Mage, or a Bard.


I prefer playing supporting characters. I'm enhancing the other party members enough to have a much higher impact than one more tank or DD would have, and generally did so for about 4-5 years. I'll **** in my pants if I can play another job like FFXI's RDM or BRD again. If support job's are suddenly put in a position where you can compare them to a DD though, I'll just play DD. There's no reason to give up a more combat orientated play style if the difference is negligible.
#68 Jun 27 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Everything Jobangles said is true and goes back to my point of options. So I don't have much to add here.

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But no reason to play? That's ridiculous. You should play a job/role because you WANT to. Jobs like Bard and White Mage shouldn't be so popular purely on the basis that they are vital, but because people like those jobs.


This again is not true, stop assuming everybody plays a job for the same reasons, people play different jobs for different reasons. There is no right reason to play a job, even if you think your reason for playing a job is better then somebody else's reason. I'll list a few reasons just to give examples, some people level jobs for gear, some people level jobs for the look, some people level jobs for maat cap (assuming something like this will be in the game), some people level jobs because they enjoy it, some people level jobs for endgame, some people level jobs because there easier to level, some people level jobs because there harder to level, and some people level jobs because a mixture of things. There is no right reason to level a job, people do it for many and different reasons.
#69 Jun 27 2009 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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heh i'm just glad sub-jobs won't be in the game anymore, I personally thought NIN blink tanks were retarded and overpowered.

People who think support jobs shouldn't be required obviously haven't played any final fantasy since, well, ever. Good luck beating any FF without cure.

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 3:38pm by imperialvulture
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#70 Jun 27 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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I don't like the idea of being able to group without a healer. It means that tank options would be OP or the content would be tuned so trivially that it wouldn't be all that much fun. It's one thing if your tank is overdeveloped for the content and the healer has an easy time of things such that they can nuke from time to time...it's another thing for there to be so much at-level content that nothing hits hard enough or lives long enough to wear people down.

I tend to see support roles as buffing classes, and in those cases my hope would be that the game is tuned so that they bring a lot of great stuff to a party, but at no time are they ever considered mandatory. Part of the reason I left FFXI was because I was one of those guys who responded to QQ about not getting group invites with, "Make your own group then." So when I try to get my red-headed stepchild job (RNG/NIN) into some merit parties, I was typically the one doing the searches and sending out inquiries/invites. Few things were more frustrating than finally...finally finding a tank and/or a healer after hours of searching only to have them drop from the party within 5 minutes because there was no BRD or RDM available.

Another MMO developer has developed the philosophy of tuning the content so that people are more inclined to "bring the player, not the [job]." At the same time, a lot of the difficulty in FFXI stemmed from the players themselves. Could a merit party function without refresh/haste? Absolutely. Could it function as well as a group that had those buffs? Probably not. If you've got another grind session in the works, most people want to get the most bang for their buck out of it, which demands peak performance and optimal setups. That's a player response to a time sink grind, and there are definitely things an MMO developer can do to mitigate the likelihood of that response becoming common throughout the community.

A couple of options are to make a wider array of jobs/classes viable as tanks and healers, and if we're looking at a freeform development system in FFXIV, they may have solved that problem indirectly already. Another option is to not require such a grind (and a restrictive one, at that) in order to progress. I've mentioned previously that if you could strip out all of the time invested waiting for groups to form and all of the other delays associated with group play, the grind automatically starts to seem a lot less oppressive. A game with less focus on group play and more focus on "do what you want" might solve that to a large extent as well.

And if SE does that, support classes can remain potent and be welcome additions to a group, but it's less likely that they're going to become the third critical role that all successful parties "must" have before they're willing to head out and play. I don't think it was the buffs that were too potent, I think it was a game that was unrealistically tuned that led to players feeling the need to squeeze every last possible performance boost they could out of a situation just to make the grind bearable.
#71 Jun 27 2009 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Good luck beating any FF without cure.


You can beat nearly all of them without cure. They have these things called potions, but that's really entirely beside the point.

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This again is not true, stop assuming everybody plays a job for the same reasons, people play different jobs for different reasons.


Really starting to have doubts about your reading comprehension. I never said that everybody plays a job for the same reasons, or even implied it. All I was saying is that people shouldn't play a job solely because it's so powerfully unbalanced.

I mean, all of the "different" reasons you gave can easily be summed up into two categories. People who actually like the job, and people who are only playing it for an incentive.

@AureliusSir; You make a good point about the fundamental flaws in FFXI contributing to the problem, but I don't agree with your assertion about tanks and healers...

People keep worrying that the mobs won't hit hard enough, or that there won't be a big enough difference between a tank and any other job, but that's not at all the case. What I'm talking about is almost purely a matter of stats and numbers-- tweaking them so that when building a party, two similarly skilled players are almost indistinguishable in performance regardless of job.

So yes, make it so that tanks still take far less damage than DDs. But make it so that DDs won't be up a creek without a tank, healer, and refresh. This is as simple a matter as making HP recovery a more universal ability.

People would still party with support roles even if for no other reason than to mix things up and check them out in action. Not to say that a tank, healer, support, DDs setup wouldn't be the ideal either, just not by so much.

Well, I'm going to be gone for a few days on a trip. Enjoy the reprieve.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#72 Jun 27 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:

People keep worrying that the mobs won't hit hard enough, or that there won't be a big enough difference between a tank and any other job, but that's not at all the case. What I'm talking about is almost purely a matter of stats and numbers-- tweaking them so that when building a party, two similarly skilled players are almost indistinguishable in performance regardless of job.

So yes, make it so that tanks still take far less damage than DDs. But make it so that DDs won't be up a creek without a tank, healer, and refresh. This is as simple a matter as making HP recovery a more universal ability.


The difficulty with that is the chaos that would ensue. One of the benefits of a standard tank/healer sandwich with damage classes in between is that unless something goes wrong, the healer knows where to focus their attention. They can anticipate incoming damage to their target (the tank), they can adapt to AoE, and they can often recover from overzealous dps pulling too much threat. Make it an all-dps free-for-all party and you're asking for a calamity of epic proportions. It doesn't matter if everyone can heal...someone is eventually going to be relegated to the role of healer or you're most likely going to end up with everyone healing and nobody fighting, or everyone fighting and nobody healing (or at least not enough healing going on for it to make a difference).

There's no structure in a party based around what you're suggesting. If you tune content "intended" for groups so that it can be done without a tank and/or healer, it's going to be some weak-*** content. Even if you show up with a party full of hybrids, someone is going to end up tanking and someone is going to end up focused on healing. Without designated roles, you'd have to know everyone in the group extremely well or be extremely lucky to be successful. In the past, there have always been penalties associated with dedicated tank and healer builds...why would anyone take on those penalties if the focused roles they bring to a group aren't needed?
#73 Jun 27 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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But no reason to play? That's ridiculous. You should play a job/role because you WANT to. Jobs like Bard and White Mage shouldn't be so popular purely on the basis that they are vital, but because people like those jobs.


and now this

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Really starting to have doubts about your reading comprehension. I never said that everybody plays a job for the same reasons, or even implied it. All I was saying is that people shouldn't play a job solely because it's so powerfully unbalanced.


Omg I'm really starting to have doubts on your reading comprehension, when you say "you should play a job/role because you want to", is impling why they should play a job/role. Really think before you speak, when you start a sentence off with "people should play job/role because" then you are impling why people should play a job. People play jobs for different reasons, there is no you "should play because of this reason over another reason". Some people level jobs not necessarily because they want to, but because they like the feeling of being desired in parties, or endgames, or whatever there is. Some people leveled jobs not because they liked it, but because they liked the look of the jobs AF gear (I know a few people that did this lol). Some people leveled a job not because they liked it, but because they wanted to lot on gear. So when you say why a person should play a job, then go back and say you didn't even imply it, i'm starting to wonder are you thinking before you speak.

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 9:40pm by HocusP
#74 Jun 27 2009 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:

Omg I'm really starting to have doubts on your reading comprehension, when you say "you should play a job/role because you want to", is impling why they should play a job/role. Really think before you speak, when you start a sentence off with "people should play job/role because" then you are impling why people should play a job. People play jobs for different reasons, there is no you "should play because of this reason over another reason". Some people level jobs not necessarily because they want to, but because they like the feeling of being desired in parties, or endgames, or whatever there is. Some people leveled jobs not because they liked it, but because they liked the look of the jobs AF gear (I know a few people that did this lol). Some people leveled a job not because they liked it, but because they wanted to lot on gear. So when you say why a person should play a job, then go back and say you didn't even imply it, i'm starting to wonder are you thinking before you speak.


That's a pretty pathetic argument. Sorry, it just is. People should feel like they can play the role they want to play. It doesn't matter why they want to play it (playstyle, endgame options, etc.). It's the fact that they're doing something in their leisure time that they want to do, and that should be the focus. If people want to invest dozens upon dozens of hours doing something they don't enjoy for the sake of something down the line, that's their choice. Ideally, the game wouldn't be tuned such that people are in that situation all that often. If you've got people setting aside the role they enjoy for the sake of the role that gets them into groups, something is wrong.
#75 Jun 27 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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That's a pretty pathetic argument. Sorry, it just is. People should feel like they can play the role they want to play. It doesn't matter why they want to play it (playstyle, endgame options, etc.). It's the fact that they're doing something in their leisure time that they want to do, and that should be the focus. If people want to invest dozens upon dozens of hours doing something they don't enjoy for the sake of something down the line, that's their choice. Ideally, the game wouldn't be tuned such that people are in that situation all that often. If you've got people setting aside the role they enjoy for the sake of the role that gets them into groups, something is wrong.


Well it happens all the time, people can spend there time doing what they want. If they want to level a job for things down the line, I don't see that as less worthy because they do so. I'm not saying that all people do this, but its usually a mixture of reasons why people level jobs. To assume that everybody levels jobs because they want to is not right, I know and i'm sure many other too, know people that has leveled jobs for other reasons. What makes your reason anymore valid, then anybody else's reason, like I said people get joy out of many different things. I know many people that cried when they got ridill or other items, (that leveled war for gear), this just means they got there joy in the job another way then the leveling process.

I kind of compare this to why people get degrees in college. There are many reasons why people get degrees, and I dont see any reason as "wrong". Some people get a degree in a field because of money they could make, some people get a degree in a field because they love or want to, some people get degree in a field because its easier to get a job in that field, and some people get a degree in a field because of a mixture of things (maybe money and they semi like it). This is in no way an exact or great comparison, but it is good enough to get the point of view out. So if I get a degree because of the high bucks I can make in that field, then i'm wrong? Some people love money, like some people love gear. So if they level a job for gear or other reason, it shouldn't matter, its their time and their effort put forth in leveling the job (or effort in gaining that degree).
#76 Jun 27 2009 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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People would still party with support roles even if for no other reason than to mix things up and check them out in action. Not to say that a tank, healer, support, DDs setup wouldn't be the ideal either, just not by so much.


If you've ever been in a good ToA merit party you'd know people do not invite tanks or healers if they are not required.
#77 Jun 27 2009 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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1,159 posts
Kachi wrote:
Uh, you know there are actually people who just like the idea of playing as a support role? There are people who just like the idea of being a White Mage, or a Bard.

A crippling? No-- they would still be great contributions to a party.

A fundamental personality change? That's a laughable assertion. They would still be centrally focused on supporting other players.

Something that no one would want to play? I very much doubt that. No one would play it purely because it was in such high demand, but people would still want to play those jobs.

You presume that support roles are torture. They are not necessarily torturous just because they were in FFXI. I think it says something (negative) about your attitude if you're torturing yourself while playing a video game. No job should be torturous.



I don't think you are understanding what I'm trying to say and I can't really think of a way to get you to. Perhaps this will help...

Currently

Group: Support > DD
Solo: DD > Support

Overall: Support = DD

Your proposal


Group:Support = DD
Solo: DD > Support

Overall: DD > Support



I know you are going to deny it but this is what will happen.
#78 Jun 27 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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424 posts
Quote:
I'm even saying that healers should not be -needed-.


This is where you lost the forum. Most of us think support classes should be a viable option to spice up gameplay, but can still see where FFXI may have made them a little too necessary. But you aren't arguing that... you are arguing that groups shouldn't need a healer, or a tank, or anything other than whatever shows up.

A healer or support class shouldn't be necessary for the solo play, but a party where anyone can join (using a term from both WoW and FFXI here) ie: A PARTY FULL OF WARRIORS> well, yeah you can play together and gain loot or levels or abilities or whatever... but it will never be as effective as a well rounded party.

The truth is, you can make a group with any jobs/classes/roles/whatchamacallits that you want in ANY MMO RIGHT NOW.

It's just that the rest of the player base will probably not want to play with your group because it is not well rounded.

A game where everyone can play any job and group together and still be successful is a game where only one job is ever necessary. It is a FPS, like Halo, or COD, or Counterstrike, or... etc etc.

The game you want to play is out there... and there are many of them.

Unfortunately for you they are all single player, because nobody wants to play an online MMORPG with your qualifications. Well, maybe not 'nobody' but at least not enough to merit the construction of such a game.

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#79 Jun 27 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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424 posts
What I am trying to say is: Nobody ever forced you to group with a tank and a healer, aside from the pressure from the rest of the people in your party. Nobody ever said, hey you don't get exp unless there is a healer class in your group.

It's just the way the community saw the jobs and most people preferred a well rounded group.

On my old server there were linkshells composed entirely of one class that would go out and party together, a group of all redmages, a group of all beast masters, a group of all summoners, a group of all black mages, a group of all warriors, etc etc.

It is the COMMUNITY that said, hey we probably don't want to play in an all DD group. The rules of the games never said it was necessary. And if you don't want to play along with the community, either form your own groups that want to play like you do... or don't play.
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Administrator Kaolian:
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
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#80 Jun 27 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
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555 posts

Quote:
Unfortunately for you they are all single player, because nobody wants to play an online MMORPG with your qualifications. Well, maybe not 'nobody' but at least not enough to merit the construction of such a game.


I think he meant this game:

http://www.giantbomb.com/rpg-maker/61-2684/
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#81 Jun 28 2009 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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100 posts
People who want support roles nerfed are usually butthurt DPS classes who sat on their *** in Jeuno flagged for a party
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#82 Jun 28 2009 at 4:42 AM Rating: Decent
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What I'd rather see is the game set up for 4 job parties rather than 6.
If they make classes more hybrid types it would work:
Tank/DD classes, buffer/DD classes, Healer/nuker classes, Support/healer classes. We have some of that in XI but they are generally supplanted by dedicated jobs in a 6 man party. Take away the specialist entirely. Give people only hybrid jobs and balance it a bit better.

4 man groups would be much easier to get together and would be similar to how we've always played Single player RPG's.

AS to the argument that Support jobs were overpowered. That's just silly. They were powered as necessary to make people play them. Even as is, no one plays COR. And finding a BRD can remain a challenge. RDM is popular but often because of its soloability rather than its party dynamics where it is stuck as either healer, sleeper or stunner most of the time.

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