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Of Manthras and GirlkasFollow

#52 Jan 23 2010 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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players have wanted it for years? some have yes, but then there are others, like me, who really dont give a crap one way or the other. i personally thought the *** limitation (and its ***, not gender...gender is a social construct, *** is a biological delineation) added an interesting touch to things.

heres some food for thought; in FF11, the male-only race was oppressed, being forced into the station of lower class citizen at best and slave at worst. on the flipside, the female-only race was empowered, independent, and a keystone in the workings of their home city (as opposed to being the bricks the city was built upon).
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#53 Jan 24 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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If you don't care why read the thread? Your right some players don't care or whatever their stance on it but their are a Large number of players NA , EU , JP that want it..We all know the history of the races and galka was the only gender specific race Mithra males was very much there and they wasn't *** slaves they just never adventured to area the tribe of female Mithra did... end of story thanks for adding your two cents
#54 Jan 24 2010 at 4:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Many people still don't seem to realize/understand that Galkas are neither male nor female. They are a unisex being. The only reason they can wear male-only equipment is because of their physical appearance and to counter-balance Mithras.

IF Roegadyns have the same concept as Galkas, it would make no sense whatsoever to have "female Roegadyns."

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#55 Jan 24 2010 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quor wrote:
and its ***, not gender...gender is a social construct, *** is a biological delineation


"In ordinary speech, it is used interchangeably with "***" to denote the condition of being male or female"

~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

So both are okay?

Edited, Jan 24th 2010 11:51am by RedGalka

Edited, Jan 24th 2010 8:26pm by RedGalka
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#56 Jan 24 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I was going to say the same thing. Galka are male gender, regardless of their ***.
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#57 Jan 24 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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In ordinary speech, it is used interchangeably with "***" to denote the condition of being male or female


cause wikipedia is the source of all knowledge amirite? besides, im not talking ordinary speech here....im talking the basis of male/female masculine/feminine dicussions for the past century (something that was crudely allued to in the OP).

gender denotes certain qualities about a person, while *** denotes the possession of one form of DNA or another. while you can argue that galka had the "masculine" gender in terms of the qualities attached to them, its harder to say what *** they were, as it was known that galka reproduced by a form of asexual reproduction.

likewise, we know that, altho never seen, mithra produced via sexual reproduction. it can be inferred then that female mithra and male mithra have the usual differentiation between genitalia that one would assume (for the sake of argument). however, despite this obvious male/female divide, there a number of mithra in FF11 that exhibit traditionally "masculine" qualities. therefore, you have a number of mithra who are by the genetic definition female (***, possessing a ****** and being able to give birth) yet by the social definition follow a more masculine role (gender).

in short, gender speaks of the intangible qualities of a person, while *** refers to physical differences. think of it like a sliding scale...i, for instance, work with kids, a rather uncommon profession for a man. that would be viewed by the eye of society as a more feminine role. however, i also work part time on cars at my familys shop, and enjoy beer, barbeque, and bikini-clad women as well. these qualities are viewed as masculine in nature in my society (united states). depending on the culture you come from, the attribute (masculine vs feminine) ascribed to a given quality can change. but your ***, barring a few rather rare genetic abnormalities (such as androgyne insensitivity for instance) or drastic surgery is immutable.

in terms of FF11, i can remember instances where both mithra and galka exhibited masculine and feminine characteristics as well as partaking in each role. some mithra were "den mothers," taking care of the kits, while some galka engaged in a "fathering" role for younger galka. likewise, mithra formed the backbone of the ground army of windhurst (a role traditionally seen as more masculine) while galka served both in the military of bastok as well as forming a large part of bastok's manual labor force.

the reason why im making this distinction is because the OP talked about "gender-limited" races. thats not true; neither mithra nor galka were gender limited. both were able to access any job in the game, fulfilling roles that were both masculine and feminine in nature (i.e. the nurturing galka whm and the bloodthirsty mithra war).

basically, if we're gonna argue about something, lets at least get the terminology right.

edit: sweet, less than an hour later and ive already been rated down. hello mr (or mrs.) ratedown troll!

Edited, Jan 24th 2010 4:55pm by Quor
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#58 Jan 24 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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im not talking ordinary speech here


No but I was. And with "gender" I wasn't only pointing towards physical differences but towards behavior as well. Both sides were being discussed in the thread.

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basically, if we're gonna argue about something, lets at least get the terminology right.


Which you can only do if you understand the context first and not force your own on others.
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#59 Jan 24 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Which you can only do if you understand the context first and not force your own on others.


if by "my own" you mean "the entire scientific community at large" then yeah.

or, more to the point, maybe we should consider language and cultural differences. i dont know japanese, but im fairly certain there exists in the japanese language different words for "***" and "gender". asking the developers to make both "genders" available could very well cause them to wonder wtf we're talking about, given that its possible to play as both "genders" for either race. however, asking for both "sexes" is an entirely different matter.

after all, if youre going to ask someone for something, then ask for it the correct way. given that SE is a large corporation, this kind of semantic difference is something they have to deal with thanks to the nature of society today. they can point at all sorts of examples of masculinity and femininity for both mithra and galka, and therefore asking for "manthras and girlkas" probably wont do much aside from eliciting some head-scratching from the developers. but asking for male mithra and female galka...well, that's much less confusing, and much more likely to get the desired result.

Edited, Jan 24th 2010 5:12pm by Quor
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The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
- MojoVIII
i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#60 Jan 24 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Is anyone actually disagreeing that Galka are a male gender only race or are we just waxing semantical?
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#61 Jan 25 2010 at 3:50 AM Rating: Default
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Quor wrote:
if by "my own" you mean "the entire scientific community at large" then yeah.


This is a gaming community.

Quor wrote:
or, more to the point, maybe we should consider language and cultural differences. i dont know japanese, but im fairly certain there exists in the japanese language different words for "***" and "gender". asking the developers to make both "genders" available could very well cause them to wonder wtf we're talking about, given that its possible to play as both "genders" for either race. however, asking for both "sexes" is an entirely different matter.

after all, if youre going to ask someone for something, then ask for it the correct way. given that SE is a large corporation, this kind of semantic difference is something they have to deal with thanks to the nature of society today. they can point at all sorts of examples of masculinity and femininity for both mithra and galka, and therefore asking for "manthras and girlkas" probably wont do much aside from eliciting some head-scratching from the developers. but asking for male mithra and female galka...well, that's much less confusing, and much more likely to get the desired result.



Well in the Dutch language there are words that mean a lot of different things. We don't stare blindy at one word. We look at the whole context to understand what the word means.

If you fear that the Japanese might not understand what I'm trying to say in my original post, because of the word gender, then I fear they didn't read the whole post, thread.

And btw: I didn't ask for anything, I just made a remark.

Kachi wrote:
Is anyone actually disagreeing that Galka are a male gender only race or are we just waxing semantical?


Not me. I find nothing feminine about their behavior.



Edited, Jan 25th 2010 10:54am by RedGalka
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#62 Jan 25 2010 at 4:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Is anyone actually disagreeing that Galka are a male gender only race or are we just waxing semantical?


see, thats what im talking about. that doesnt make any sense! the galka are not a "male-gender" race. the galka exhibit qualities that are both masculine and feminine, but they have no ***; they reproduce asexually. so calling them "male" is erroneous. however, calling them masculine or feminine is not, and depending on what qualities you ascribe to those definitions, the galka can be both masculine and feminine at the same time.

the mithra are a bit more familiar in that they reproduce through the joining of a male and a female to create offspring, and so things are more cut and dried here. however, the majority of mithra, and indeed the only choice player characters have, is female. this is a biological delineation, not a social one. your mithra can be as manly or girly as you want her to be, but that doesnt change the fact that she is female.

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Well in the Dutch language there are words that mean a lot of different things. We don't stare blindy at one word. We look at the whole context to understand what the word means.

If you fear that the Japanese might not understand what I'm trying to say in my original post, because of the word gender, then I fear they didn't read the whole post, thread.

And btw: I didn't ask for anything, I just made a remark.


well, as you likely may have guessed, SE uses alla exclusively as its go-to source for any and all pertinent fan info regarding the final fantasy franchise.

<.<

i jest.

while i doubt that theyll focus on a specific word and go "nah, ***** it, not worth our time" theres something very nice about a correctly worded and directed request. taking the time to actually understand the difference and address them in such a way as to avoid confusion goes a long way when there are likely thousands of such requests being directed at them regarding every little facet of the game (jumping is a big one ive noticed).

so if its really important, then understanding the difference is not only worthwhile, but key in ensuring youre not just tossing out buzzwords to try and drum up website hits, context or no.
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The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
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i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#63 Jan 25 2010 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Trying to think of a Galka npc who behaves feminine...
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#64 Jan 25 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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So both then.

I meant masculine when I said male gender. My understanding is that male gender= masculine. Masculine gender is redundant, as masculine refers explicitly to gender. But I'm in no mood to quibble about it (and rarely am). Point being, gender and *** are not completely separate constructs. Gender is a construct of ***-- *** is the reason it exists in the first place. It's just that it has begun to transcend *** in more and more instances.

Galka are definitely masculine. I can't think of a single instance of overarching femininity displayed by a Galka (such that they would be more feminine than masculine). They are clearly masculine by design.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Jan 25 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
Trying to think of a Galka npc who behaves feminine...


The little chubby galka girl in Bastok if I'm not mistaken.

Edited, Jan 25th 2010 3:12pm by odinpingpong
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#66 Jan 25 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd love to see female Galkens in XIV, but only if they don't name them Girlkins, which to me is too similar to Girkins, which is a Pickle.

The last thing I want when I run up to a party camp with a Galka in a skirt, Is to wounder how big of a pickle she's hiding under there...
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#67 Jan 25 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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The little chubby galka girl in Bastok if I'm not mistaken.


Where? o.O
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#68 Jan 25 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
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The little chubby galka girl in Bastok if I'm not mistaken.


Where? o.O


nvm that was a male. I got confused with the little girl in windurst
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#69 Jan 25 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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odinpingpong wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
The little chubby galka girl in Bastok if I'm not mistaken.


Where? o.O


nvm that was a male. I got confused with the little girl in windurst


Heh that must have been some fat little girl.
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#70 Jan 25 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trying to think of a Galka npc who behaves feminine...


its been awhile, but i know of one storyline in bastok where youre trying to help this grown galka find his friend. this friend is viewed as being very wise and an important member of galka society, and ultimately you come to the conclusion that the friend "died" in a way, but left a child form of himself. thus, the grown galka decides to take on the role of caregiver for the younger galka, a traditionally feminine role by the standards of most societies. this is the most prominent example that i can think of off the top of my head.

Quote:
I meant masculine when I said male gender. My understanding is that male gender= masculine. Masculine gender is redundant, as masculine refers explicitly to gender. But I'm in no mood to quibble about it (and rarely am). Point being, gender and *** are not completely separate constructs. Gender is a construct of ***-- *** is the reason it exists in the first place. It's just that it has begun to transcend *** in more and more instances.


ugh, sorry to quibble again but *** isnt a construct...its a tangible thing, something that can be easily verified through direct observation.

your point about the masculine gender is a good one though. when people say "masculine" or "feminine" theyre usually speaking of it in terms of the gender of the person. thats why i was so confused on reading the OP, and some of the responses to the OP.

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Galka are definitely masculine. I can't think of a single instance of overarching femininity displayed by a Galka (such that they would be more feminine than masculine). They are clearly masculine by design.


well, theres the one questline i mentioned above, and i remember a few other quest instances where a galka showed a more feminine side in terms of the role and actions they took. its a bit easier to see the blurred line with the mithra, who quite obviously fill both a nurturing, feminine role (in the case of the den mothers) while also filling a military, masculine role (in the case of the huntresses of windhurst).

as for PC's, its really up to the players choice. some of the best whms i had ever partied with were galka, and its easy to argue that the whm, as a class, fits more to a feminine role than a masculine one. likewise, the few mithra tanks i played with (pld tanks) did superb jobs in the stereotypically masculine role of the meat shield, ultimately showing that you, the player, can decide which gender role you take, regardless of the *** of your character.

which ultimately, was the source of my confusion. it took me a good 20 posts to realize that everyone was talking about *** choice instead of gender choice. i blame grad school.
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#71 Jan 25 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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its been awhile, but i know of one storyline in bastok where youre trying to help this grown galka find his friend. this friend is viewed as being very wise and an important member of galka society, and ultimately you come to the conclusion that the friend "died" in a way, but left a child form of himself. thus, the grown galka decides to take on the role of caregiver for the younger galka, a traditionally feminine role by the standards of most societies. this is the most prominent example that i can think of off the top of my head.


I just see a father/parent figure. I'm a little confused because it's like you're saying men don't care for their children.
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#72 Jan 26 2010 at 12:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed. I recalled that same quest, as it was the best example I could recall. However, those feminine qualities were not cumulatively greater than that individual's masculine qualities either. I'm a -very- nurturing guy, but I'm still definitively masculine.

IIRC, Galka couldn't even wear bridal gear, which pretty explicitly shoehorns them into a masculine gender, along with all males.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#73 Jan 26 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
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its been awhile, but i know of one storyline in bastok where youre trying to help this grown galka find his friend. this friend is viewed as being very wise and an important member of galka society, and ultimately you come to the conclusion that the friend "died" in a way, but left a child form of himself. thus, the grown galka decides to take on the role of caregiver for the younger galka, a traditionally feminine role by the standards of most societies. this is the most prominent example that i can think of off the top of my head.


I just see a father/parent figure. I'm a little confused because it's like you're saying men don't care for their children.

There's a marked difference in being the primary caregiver for a child, and providing for a child. Traditionally men provide for their families, but are not involved in the direct caregiving as a woman would be.

This has of course broken down in Western society in the past century or so, as gender equality has become a more prevalent attitude, hence confusion in this thread.
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#74 Jan 26 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Good
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But again, one feminine quality, no matter how important, does not overtake all the masculine qualities.

Further, gender roles are not always consistent across cultures. There's a particular culture in the world (though I forget their name) where the gender role expectations are quite reversed.

Point being, this is clearly a case of a masculine character exhibiting feminine characteristics, rather than vice versa.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75 Jan 26 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
But again, one feminine quality, no matter how important, does not overtake all the masculine qualities.

Further, gender roles are not always consistent across cultures. There's a particular culture in the world (though I forget their name) where the gender role expectations are quite reversed.

Point being, this is clearly a case of a masculine character exhibiting feminine characteristics, rather than vice versa.

Or it could be an asexual character falling into a feminine gender identity; we have no idea.
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#76 Jan 26 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, I've done the quest, so I do have an idea. Granted it's a fictional character, so it's not like I got to know him outside of the quest.

Which raises me to what should be the nail in the coffin.

All Galka are "he's."
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#77 Jan 26 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quor, Redgalka.. get out of this thread and get a room already.
#78 Jan 26 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
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oh ive missed you theo. your name brought back fun memories of our times in the shaman forum.

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Or it could be an asexual character falling into a feminine gender identity; we have no idea.


exactly.

Quote:
Which raises me to what should be the nail in the coffin.

All Galka are "he's."


in order to have a "he" in a race, you first need a "she". theyre intertwined; one cannot exist without the other, for the whole purpose of defining things as "he" or "she" is to show difference. if theres nothing to show difference against, then the need for a descriptor becomes moot.

which is why the galka are something of a special case....as i said earlier, its a bit easier with the mithra, who are pretty adrogynous across the entire race (that is to say, they are neither markedly more masculine or feminine, but instead something of a happy medium between the two). but the galka...well, they have no biological difference like the mithra do; all galka are of the same "***". we dont know what that *** is. we have an idea, through in-game dialogue, that the galka exhibit more masculine characteristics, but one does not need to be male in order to act in a masculine way.
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The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
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#79 Jan 26 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

in order to have a "he" in a race, you first need a "she". theyre intertwined; one cannot exist without the other, for the whole purpose of defining things as "he" or "she" is to show difference. if theres nothing to show difference against, then the need for a descriptor becomes moot.


That's not true at all. Masculinity and femininity are not opposing constructs along a continuum-- they're entirely a matter of subjective cultural norms. Given that in all target audiences for this game, those norms are generally similar, those norms are applied to all characters, whether they're of fictional races or not. A galka is for all intents and purposes a male human to whom masculine qualities are ascribed.

And mithra, sorry, but they're only as androgynous as our cultures permit women to be. Being a tomboy is an "acceptable" role for a girl to play (conversely, being a sissy is not for a boy). The masculine qualities displayed by mithra are not true androgyny but a representation of this tomboyism. Mithra remain distinctly feminine.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#80 Jan 26 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That's not true at all. Masculinity and femininity are not opposing constructs along a continuum-- they're entirely a matter of subjective cultural norms. Given that in all target audiences for this game, those norms are generally similar, those norms are applied to all characters, whether they're of fictional races or not. A galka is for all intents and purposes a male human to whom masculine qualities are ascribed.


im not talking masculinity vs feminity here, im talking male vs female. you may think the galka are male, but biologically they are not. biologically we dont (to my knowledge) have a word to describe them aside from asexual. being male assumes that you have a female counterpart of the same species, and the two of you will, at some time, get together and procreate. galka have no procreation, and you cant call something "male" just because it posseses, to you, masculine characteristics.

masculinity and being male are entirely different things. as you noted, you dont need to be male to be masculine, just that masculinity is, in most cultures, most often associated with males.

Quote:
And mithra, sorry, but they're only as androgynous as our cultures permit women to be. Being a tomboy is an "acceptable" role for a girl to play (conversely, being a sissy is not for a boy). The masculine qualities displayed by mithra are not true androgyny but a representation of this tomboyism. Mithra remain distinctly feminine.


androgyny is the possession of both masculine and feminine traits in a ratio that would be deemed roughly equal. in short, androgyny is the absence of a distinctly masculine or feminine nature. in a race where a single *** runs the gamut from nurturing caregiver to fearsome fighter i think its fair to call them androgynous. if you see the mithra as distinctly feminine then thats likely your own bias. i see the mithra as neither feminine nor masculine; theyre quite capable of handling both roles with equal ease.
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#81 Jan 27 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
masculinity and being male are entirely different things. as you noted, you dont need to be male to be masculine, just that masculinity is, in most cultures, most often associated with males.


They're not entirely different things. One is a creation from the other, and the correlation between the two is extremely high. Masculinity exists because in most cases, overwhelmingly, being a male dictates the traits which masculinity consists of.
Quote:

androgyny is the possession of both masculine and feminine traits in a ratio that would be deemed roughly equal. in short, androgyny is the absence of a distinctly masculine or feminine nature. in a race where a single *** runs the gamut from nurturing caregiver to fearsome fighter i think its fair to call them androgynous. if you see the mithra as distinctly feminine then thats likely your own bias. i see the mithra as neither feminine nor masculine; theyre quite capable of handling both roles with equal ease.


I think that represents your own bias of masculinity and femininity, and is not one that most socially conscious people would agree with. There is far more to gender than one's role as a provider or caregiver.

I think you vastly undersell the relationship between *** and gender. Even physical qualities determine gender, and surely you know this. Further, because of the perceptions of tomboys that I already described, in nearly all cases, a masculine or androgynous personality within a feminine body is still accepted as feminine in all the cultures relevant to this demographic.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#82 Jan 27 2010 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think that represents your own bias of masculinity and femininity, and is not one that most socially conscious people would agree with. There is far more to gender than one's role as a provider or caregiver.


it probably does. we all have our own biases regarding this stuff.

and yes, gender does consist of more than that, but how can we even consider that in light of FF11? what do we know about the mithra at large aside from what was told us? that they are hunters, protectors of windhurst, and tend to raise their children in "dens" (which i think most of us can agree that it sounds like a kind of daycare/school system in a sense). what else is there to idenfity as one gender or another?

do we have an intricate understanding of the social relationship between a mithra male and a mithra female? not that ive seen or read. so we cant use that as a barometer for mithra society. since literally every role in mithra society aside from biological father is held by a female mithra, its a given that females would be filling roles that, in other cultures, are traditionally filled with males. therefore, in the lens of that culture, the mithra females are seen as taking on a masculine role (hunter, protector, warrior). yet at the same time, a good portion of the society is dedicated towards roles other cultures would see as more feminine. thus, in the larger cultural view, i think its safe the say mithra are very androgynous as a people. individual mithra may be more masculine or more feminine, but as a whole, racially, they are quite capable of filling any role without difficulty.

Quote:
I think you vastly undersell the relationship between *** and gender. Even physical qualities determine gender, and surely you know this. Further, because of the perceptions of tomboys that I already described, in nearly all cases, a masculine or androgynous personality within a feminine body is still accepted as feminine in all the cultures relevant to this demographic.


really, what determines gender is up to the culture itself. you and i look at the mithra from the outside, see a race comprised almost entirely of females, and while looking at the same things, see differing views of gender. you see a distinctly feminine bent on everything the mithra are and do. i see equal parts femininity and masculinity.

Quote:
They're not entirely different things. One is a creation from the other, and the correlation between the two is extremely high. Masculinity exists because in most cases, overwhelmingly, being a male dictates the traits which masculinity consists of.


again, thats up to the culture itself. we look into the mithra and their culture from the outside and ascribe "masculine" traits to certain things they do, but is it really masculine to them? probably not. its just business as usual, bringing home food for the tribe and protecting your home. therefore, as a race where females exhibit these "masculine" traits, you cant say said traits come entirely (or even partially) from your biological ***. the ideas of masculinity and femininity are complete abstracts, things constructed by people who are trying to sort and identify qualities that differ within people.

when you have a race of people where one *** occupies nearly every role in society, can you truly say that *** determines gender, that being "male" is the source of masculinity? if being male were the source of masculinity, then why do we see masculine traits in a nearly-all female race? clearly then, masculinity cannot come solely from your biological ***.
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The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
- MojoVIII
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feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#83 Jan 27 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
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I think you're allowing yourself to become far too engrossed in the fantasy of the race to lend any practical insights to the question of gender options for players.

Quote:
when you have a race of people where one *** occupies nearly every role in society, can you truly say that *** determines gender, that being "male" is the source of masculinity?


It's fiction. And yes, because they are not the only race. Mithra are not significantly less feminine than female Elv, Taru, or Hume. Your case would only stand if there were a world free purely of *** and gender roles, which is far from what Vanadiel is. And even if you created one, through the cultural lens which players, and even the developers, would view this fantasy world, masculinity and femininity would never be relative to that world. These are real-life constructs that will always exist as reference points between reality and fantasy unless they actually dissolve within the cultures that view these fantasies.

It is the players, not the fantasy world, that decides whether mithra are feminine by any relevant standard, and overwhelmingly, players ascribe them as feminine, or female, gender.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#84 Jan 27 2010 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quor wrote:
in order to have a "he" in a race, you first need a "she".


This point is valid for ***, but I think when he said "he's" he meant in terms of gender. And if you look at a Galka's behavior you would have to agree that it's clearly masculine 99% of the time...
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#85 Jan 27 2010 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't remember who the interview was with, but I remember reading in one of the developer interviews they said that they definitely were NOT adding male mi'qote or female roegadyn because the character models that they were planning on using were already completed and did not contain either of those requested races. Didn't seem as though they planned on going back to redo it.
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#86 Jan 27 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I think we might be thinking to hard on this one. In the character creation screen for FFXI the gender icon for galka is clearly the male icon. (circle with an arrow as opposed to circle with a plus)So the galka are are in fact male.

But; putting that aside it's also prudent, I think, to consider the Galka a seperate race from the Roegadyn. They have different names after all, so why can't they have different physiology/story.

And even if SE intends them to be the same, who cares? It's a "new" game so let's have some new concepts.

And even if it came down to "These are galka so they should be similar to galka" who says the galka can't evolve over time and develop multiple genders just like every other creature to walk on land since ever. (with maybe a few exceptions)

I guess what i'm saying is SE shouldn't be afraid to break from tradition, especially when it comes to the races.
#88 Jan 27 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quor wrote:
its easy to argue that the whm, as a class, fits more to a feminine role than a masculine one.


Sadly I have to disagree, while Nurse brings to mind female (at least in my American mind); WHM makes me think of Doctor or Medic, of which the majority are male in almost all cultures. Yes Nurses being male has been more than acceptable and even on the rise in the last decade, but Doctor is still mostly male.

Mind you, I'm just stirring the pot. I know what you meant. And Galkas made some of the best WHMs just as Taru/Mithra made the best PLDs, when you have to actually work to be effective you tend to be better at what you do. Take that same endgame player doing a Galkan WHM an make them a Taru and I would think that Taru WHM would be equally amazing and memorable (but most likely not at the top of your mental list of amazing healers since the world was flooded with Taru mages)
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#89 Feb 02 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Default
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[quote]Mind you, I'm just stirring the pot. I know what you meant. And Galkas made some of the best WHMs just as Taru/Mithra made the best PLDs, when you have to actually work to be effective you tend to be better at what you do. Take that same endgame player doing a Galkan WHM an make them a Taru and I would think that Taru WHM would be equally amazing and memorable (but most likely not at the top of your mental list of amazing healers since the world was flooded with Taru mages)/quote]



I have to agree with this its something I have argued for years nothing ****** me off like someone lvling a taru for blm when they have a diff main character why not lvl all your jobs despite a few stat differences regardless of challenge but thats just me.
On the mantra mithra etc subject, I don't care about that argument much i intend to be hume this time hopefully they will be balanced its my only half regret from ffxi.. hopefully that wont flip to some other race now >.<
I'm just not a big fan of mantras though, my 2 gil is that females shoud play female characters visa~versa >.> I know not everyone agrees with this but to each his own.
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#90 Feb 03 2010 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just not a big fan of mantras though, my 2 gil is that females shoud play female characters visa~versa >.> I know not everyone agrees with this but to each his own


If you're a small person do you have to play a tarutaru? Are Galkas only allowed for those who actually have muscles irl? Does that mean fat woman aren't allowed to play at all?
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#91 Feb 03 2010 at 2:41 AM Rating: Default
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of course not lol I just meant the female male thing. >.> just not a big fan of mantras is all
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PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

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#92 Feb 03 2010 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Just wondering where you draw the line between virtual and reality.
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