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#1 Jun 22 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think a flaw with FF11 that is commonly overlooked is the fact that there is so few degrees of difficultly per mobs. Everyone kills crabs, worms, colibri because they are easiest for that level. If monsters had a more varied scale of XP based on the mob type and not so much the level it would help a lot. If manticores gave more XP for killing them verse a simple crab people would have a real choice to make. Faster and less XP or Slower more XP. That would allow different jobs to be more important to what you'd be fighting and what type of style the players wanted to partake in parting. I assume half of the people playing would love a 30 minute fight that gave 5-10k XP. And Other would like 1 minute fights that give 200xp each. Or a mixture of both. Doing this would also free up camps, help encourage exploring, make new camps, discover new areas.

Example: Tanks
Fast hitting mobs with low attack perfect for PLD tanks, war, mnk etc.
Slow hitting mobs with high attack, better for NIN tanks, dnc, sam, etc.

Example: DD
Higher defense but permanent spike damage, good for DRK, SAM, DRG, etc.
Lower defense but lower evasion, good for MNK, BST, WAR, etc.

This would help vary up where and when you xp on different types of mob as well break up the same old routine when you can switch weapons.

Death to the Skill ups. Or at least have a way around it, Pay for training (automatically skills up) Pay for practice facilities (Cost less but you attack a Dummy).


Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 3:16pm by Synnre

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 3:17pm by Synnre
#2 Jun 22 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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But then you run into problems like with Slimes and Elementals - weapon DD have a really hard time killing them but magic people have it pretty easy.
#3 Jun 22 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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A) no exp blah blah
B) Campaign and ENM battles do this. Can you reasonably exp and level on them? the former at later levels, the latter, not really ever. More widespread things like this would be cool, but don't say they don't exist.
C) goes back to point A. The suspicion right now is our characters capabilities will be determined more by skill levels than experience levels, so a way to buy skill levels would be akin to paying an NPC to level you from 60 to 65. Doesn't seem reasonable.


Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 3:24pm by SolidMage
#4 Jun 22 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Mob difficulty is only based on the setup you have there. I think the system ffxi had wasn't perfect but it was good enough. If you have fights like you said, that are harder but gives more exp, you will see bigger exploits then already in the game. Like a setup of all blms, or maybe even 7-8 man party of blms killing the harder slow mobs, actually fast and getting crazy amount of exp. You have to be careful in doing this because its easier to manipulate then how the system works now. People will find min/max regardless so which ever way is the best, even if its just by a little bit, that will be where people go to exp.

Side Note, Since ffxiv doesn't have exp, I dont know if this even matters anymore.
#5 Jun 22 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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The only problem with this is that parties generally always get even experience (unless they're using different XP rings, or none at all).
It just wouldn't be fair to the people who ended up with the lowest amount of experience just because of their job.
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#6 Jun 22 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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I think it could be really interesting, at least. One of my favorite things about RO back-in-the-day was the varying nature of enemies; they all had relatively different stats for different classes, and some of the best times I had was searching out and trying new enemies as I got stronger, to see what was both interesting and efficient.

Not sure how well that'd translate into FFXIV, but, hey.
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#7 Jun 22 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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PrinnyFlute wrote:
I think it could be really interesting, at least. One of my favorite things about RO back-in-the-day was the varying nature of enemies; they all had relatively different stats for different classes, and some of the best times I had was searching out and trying new enemies as I got stronger, to see what was both interesting and efficient.

Huge fan of Ragnarok Online, and the obscene variety of enemies in the game.

Sadly, it did not take long for players to figure out what was best to grind on for maximum EXP. But at least it spread people out to interesting locations.

Yay kiting slow running monsters as an archer.
Yay Heal Bombing undeads as an Acolyte.
Boo killing obscenely high level Clocks via elaborate FireWall usage as a Mage for 50-60 levels.
Boo heavily armored classes AOEing entire maps of low level monsters because it was better EXP than fighting things their level.

So there is strengths and advantages for the idea. Unfortunately, it runs the risk of certain classes heavily breaking the system, resulting in them fighting monsters that are not an appropriate level for the player (either higher or lower level), in order to get optimal EXP.
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#8 Jun 22 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

So there is strengths and advantages for the idea. Unfortunately, it runs the risk of certain classes heavily breaking the system, resulting in them fighting monsters that are not an appropriate level for the player (either higher or lower level), in order to get optimal EXP.


True, true. Oh it was so much fun to do all sorts of crazy crap as a mage and beat the system though.

Admittedly I do think FFXIV's team is much bigger and more knowledgeable than RO's was at the time, but they are still very difficult things to balance.

And I do also remember the shame of wondering around as a Knight, not being able to really be efficient on anything...
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#9 Jun 22 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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An easier solution to the vary difficulty of mobs is simply to design a mob's challenge for a specific level, rather than vary the exp "as if" it were a higher level. If a lvl 50 manticore is strogner than a lvl 50 worm then either weaken the manticore or raise it's level to 53 or such.

As for your second suggestion, I think it's a very bad idea to design mobs with specific classes to coutner them in mind, unless you frequently mix the two groups together. The reason is it creates a paper-scissors-rock situation, except you have to choose one of the three for the rest of your life. If you play a monk then you're rock, and you always be rock. You will only fight scissors and no one will invite you to fight paper unless they can't find any scissors or paper. It creates a strong disparity where you're either useful or you're useless.
#10 Jun 22 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As for your second suggestion, I think it's a very bad idea to design mobs with specific classes to coutner them in mind, unless you frequently mix the two groups together. The reason is it creates a paper-scissors-rock situation, except you have to choose one of the three for the rest of your life. If you play a monk then you're rock, and you always be rock. You will only fight scissors and no one will invite you to fight paper unless they can't find any scissors or paper. It creates a strong disparity where you're either useful or you're useless.


I do understand your point, and it does make sense, but I'd like to ply my anecdotal evidence from my playtime that, for the most part, units that were "rock, paper, or scissors" when solo generally seemed to all become open game when a full party was formed. With a tank, healer, and any manner of damage dealer, most anything (in your level range) became manageable; you didn't really need a mage in your party to efficiently kill enemies that a mage would solo on otherwise.

But that was my limited experience, in any case.
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#11 Jun 22 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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The best solution to fill up camp crowding would be the creation of instances. I know a lot of people are against this because it would be "WoW like" but not only does it free up camps and lets players actually be able to level on the same things without competition from other players, but it adds the potential for scripted and story events.

I think one problem was the lack of crowd control in FFXI. Things like sleep or the like we're most likely used as a "Oh crap" button. Lack of CC (kiting for solo play) really diminishes the amount of things a player can solo on.

Now, i think it's important to realize that not every job will level up at the same rate. It's only natural for a high damage class to out level a healer in most games that allow solo play. Normally any class with a pet or an aoe also seems to level faster (look at RO and Paladins, or the pure spam that was known as Desperado for gunslingers). As for pet classes Warlocks and Hunters were always fast leveling classes in WoW, opposed to Warrior who was a tad slower, and among the warrior the fury (DD) warrior leveled faster then the tank one.

So balancing mobs so "classes can level up equally" is not really an issue. I think developers know that it's an impossibility to do such a thing. The important thing is that the classes are some what balanced at the end of the game. (For instance in FFXI thief was completely useless until level 15, and still suffered medicorism compared to almost every other job until it hit level 33 and got Viper Bite, but then fell away again before Dancing Edge etc)
#12 Jun 22 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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PrinnyFlute wrote:
True, true. Oh it was so much fun to do all sorts of crazy crap as a mage and beat the system though.

Meh. Mages were fun. But a large part of me hates them forever, because I felt so restricted inside that **** Clock Tower. Yeah, sure I could go level somewhere else, and make laughably low EXP by comparison. I felt obligated to level there, which was frustrating.

I liked my Blacksmith though, I had a huge variety in the things I could solo for good EXP, and I could party with a single Priest friend in a lot of the more fun places in the game, like Amatsu, Ayothaya, The Toy Factory, Prontera Culvert, The Sphinx and the Pyramid, Moscovia, Lou Yang, Ice Cave, Glast Helm, Einbroch Mines, Outside Orc Dungeon, Kobalts, Ant ****...

Holy crap, I had forgotten just how many places I leveled through.

I have particularly fond memories about Niflhiem. I remember the fear and anticipation as we crossed through Yggdrasil into Niflhiem, especially when we were ridiculously low level. We were, unusually skilled I like to think. We dabbled in Niflhiem while we were still an Acolyte and Merchant. Most people thought we had been tricked into being teleported there, and kept trying to offer to teleport us back to Prontera.

...

Now I wanna play Ragnarok Online again D:
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#13 Jun 22 2009 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't hang around CT much, but then, I think the only time I main'd Mage was with a FD/LB/JT build. I was always a sucker for the freeze-shock combo. XD

I just remember so many times I'd repeatedly come back to areas, waiting to be able to take stuff down. Teehee, and the party/camp setups trying to level in areas we were a smidge too weak to be in.

Moscovia, though? I've never played with that area; which was kind of sad, there was something there I think I wanted, but...it wasn't available on my server yet.

I don't know if it's first-MMO-nostalgia or what, but it seems like it was such a strong game to me in a number of areas. Doubt they'll be drawing from it much for FFXIV, though.
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#14 Jun 22 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Meh. Mages were fun. But a large part of me hates them forever, because I felt so restricted inside that **** Clock Tower. Yeah, sure I could go level somewhere else, and make laughably low EXP by comparison. I felt obligated to level there, which was frustrating.


I thought Stings were pretty good xp. I have to admit I did most of my wizzard/high wizzard leveling in parties.
But for me RO was all about the MVPs and WoE, and desperatly trying to get cards, and +10 weapons and stuff. But I think my favorite part of the game was the novelty items that might be semi useful, but in the end look cool. (Like bunnyhood, or cat ears, beanie, etc) I think FFXI needs more things like that.

But another good thing about RO was that every class had some ability to solo. (Well, pure smiths or such often had to leech) but did not inhibit the benefits of being in a party. WoW you can solo, and soloing is much faster then being in a party. FFXI needs to find the happy balance in this.
#15 Jun 22 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Litie wrote:
But another good thing about RO was that every class had some ability to solo. (Well, pure smiths or such often had to leech) but did not inhibit the benefits of being in a party. WoW you can solo, and soloing is much faster then being in a party. FFXI needs to find the happy balance in this.

If FFXIV could achieve a level of balance in partying similar to RO, I would be overjoyed.

Every class capable of soloing fairly comfortably? But a distinct and greatly increased leveling speed if you are in a party?

Seriously, that's a good thing. Soloing should be possible, but the advantage of a party should be very clear and obvious. You were essentially guaranteed to make 3-4 times as much EXP in a party as you were soloing, if your party was a strong one. Maybe even a lot higher than that if you were really really skilled (Lawl Niff at level 30 <.<)

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 6:28pm by Karelyn
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