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Endgame Badge System?Follow

#1 Jun 22 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I was wondering what you guys think of a badge rewards system for getting things equivalent to like Relic weapons and other endgame equipment.

Although I hate to bring this up, in World of Warcraft (and other MMO's) you can collect badges/artifacts from bosses and turn them in for rewards/gear.

If XIV is supposed to be slightly tuned toward more casual style gaming, I think this would be a way to help level out some of the random and unfair loot distribution that XI is notorious for.

The only downfall to a system like this is that it can make endgame far too easy, like in WoW, by giving away really good gear for marginally small amounts of effort.

Do you think a system like this could/should be incorporated into XIV as long as it doesn't take away from a challenging endgame experience?
#2 Jun 23 2009 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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If they add in a badge system Id rather see them take more from City of heroes badges and Lotros deeds that arent just end game and dont give you end game items.
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#3 Jun 23 2009 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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It could be a part of an intermediate reward in the event itself.

Like say, Einherjar drops abjurations, but you get ampoules every run to buy something else, not as good but not too bad either. Or Nyzul Assault where you can get pretty decent endgame rewards as well as work on climbing floors and getting a new weapon skill at the same time. I think it could work like that.

But I don't think that best gear should use 'badges' to be obtained, so linking the 2 would be a bad choice to make imo. If the best reward and intermediate reward aren't connected to each other, there's no point to not do something like this.


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#4 Jun 23 2009 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Well coming from FFxi frist MMO i ever played then tried wow after i quit ffxi 5 years after i started

I want this to say the same when u got a relic weapon people know you worked so hard for.That one of the core aspects of FFXI you had to work Very very Hard for any thing and you felt uplifted when you got a ADJ Sky,Sea,Limbus or a relic weapon if you make the game to easy one it may cause an infulx of the wrong type of players (emo Spame Crazy people)
#5 Jun 23 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Good
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For some reason, I feel FFXIV would cater much better to a 'reputation' system, where you earn reputation with your kingdom (e.g. 'San d'Oria, Bastok, Windurst') for killing bosses. A modified conquest system with much stronger conquest rewards seems like a good alternative to the badge system. I'd love to see that get expanded upon.
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#6 Jun 23 2009 at 4:44 AM Rating: Good
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I would also like the badge system to be like the other poster said more to the style of City of Heroes. You get a badge for doing certain things, or in FFXIV case collecting certain things, beating some NMs, and so on, but it doesn't give you anything besides the badge. So it is more of a representation of what you have done in FFXIV.

So I check a person and can see he has finish a certain string of missions, beat a NM, and obtained a really rare weapon. Kinda like the title system in place in FFCI I guess.
#7 Jun 23 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Making things too easy is a bad thing in a MMO in my opinion. But relic weapons were ridiculous. I think they should tone the randomness and rareness down some on drops as well. But if you make things too easy then people will have no sense of accomplishment and will acquire everything in the game too fast and retire. I think SE knows this and will put hardcore content in the game. I guess I for one hope it’s a bit less hard core because im not interested in a 2 year long chore to get a relic weapon.
#8 Jun 23 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Default
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Relics were not bad, a lot of people seem to forget that relic weapon is a goal with a lot of stages, and it is _not_ meant for you to finish in one go.

I don’t really remember how many stages the relics had, I think it was 5 stages you had. So if you compare that to a game like WoW you see that in WoW you have tiers so imagine that you need to get 5 tiers of the same weapon in WoW, that means you need to wait for 5 content patched to upgrade your weapon to the same level.

So how long does it take for Blizzard to release 5 tiers of gear upgrade?

The same time it will take for you to get your relic.
Different systems, yet very similar.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 8:56am by Maldavian
#9 Jun 23 2009 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's a key difference that you're missing between the stages of the relic weapon, and the tiers of gear Blizzard offers.

Each stage of tier gear that Blizzard releases is incredibly good when you get it. Sure, it will take a long time for them to release tier 9 gear, but in the meantime, tier 7 kicks ****.

Each stage of the relic weapon blows. No one in their right mind will use a relic weapon upgraded to stage 2 over what else is out there. It's not til stage 4 when you can use the weapon skill associated with that weapon in Dynamis that it's even worth thinking about, and not til stage 5 that it's worth using outside of Dynamis. That's why people are always encouraged not to upgrade their weapon until they have enough currency to go right to stage 4, because people who upgrade slowly in stages have a tendancy to burn out at stage 3, and end up sinking millions worth of currency into a useless item, both wasting their gil, and valuable dynamis currency that someone else could have used.

If a stage 2 relic axe was better than Woodville's, and a stage 3 relic axe was better than Iron Ram Pick, and a stage 4 relic axe was better than Maneater, and then stage 5 was the end all and be all awesome weapon, then your analogy would be more accurate.
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#10 Jun 23 2009 at 6:01 AM Rating: Default
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They shot themselves in the foot by releasing the relic weapons wayyy too early in the game's life. Hopefully they learned from that, although to be fair they were kinda creative in getting around the issue with mythic weapons.
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#11 Jun 23 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally, I really like the idea of earning badges or something like that from NMs, raids, etc, and being able to get useful endgame items with them.
#12 Jun 23 2009 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I think a lot of people here are misunderstanding the point of badges. Badges are solely meant to make players less dependent on the RNG (random number generator). They do this in two ways.

1. First they are able to replace drop chance. A Monster might normally have a 10% chance to drop "uber item," but it's only a chance. Some players will get lucky and get it on their first kill, and some will get very unlucky and get it on their 100th kill. That 10% chance can be replaced by forcing the monster to drop 1 badge each kill and "uber item," requiring 10 badges to achieve. This makes end game less about getting lucky and more about applying effort.

2. Second they eliminate the problem of discarded high end items. Let's say a guild has just 6 black mages, and all of them have their "ultimate doom staff." When you kill a raid boss hopping to get some gear for other people yet another "ultimate doom staff," drops. It's rare/ex or BoP, so you can't sell it at all. It gets discarded--trashed. That whole fight was for nothing because of a random loot table. By making badges usable by most classes you can now eliminate getting redundant loot.

There are simple ways to vary the amount than random chance is involved, but the philosophy of the WoW dev team at the time of badges was that players shouldn't be entirely at the mercy of chance.
#13 Jun 23 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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It works when the drop rates are good already- I doubt that FFXIV will have as good drop rates on stuff as WoW does.

But if the drop rates are bad, the badge system might be actually worse than RNG- that's why keeping it for intermediate rewards that don't take too long to acquire might be the best way to use the system.
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#14 Jun 23 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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I personally feel having a badgesystem isn't bad at all, but it should definately be in a moderate amount. In WoW for example, only a small percentage of items are earned through badges, and none of them are the best in slot item, nor can it compete with highest endgame loot. However, some of the items still has some use when you're working your way up, and it's not a bad system to give people with less time some reward for the effort they're trying to put in. If implemented, it should work as a complement or a lesser substitution to the existing endgame loot. Having different tiers of badges is also nice, so people at different skills and level ranges could earn some badges and buy items that fit into their category.

On a sidenote, no matter how frustrating and tedious RNG can be at times, it still is a motivational factor for people to come back and do older content. Removing all the RNG from the game will only make the game that much less interesting (and dynamic), and the longevity factor won't remain. This would apply to people with a lot of time on their hands ofcourse. That's why I think having a badge system on the side would fit alot of the more casual audience, and it'd help them attain some items on a more steady basis, where they can see the progress towards their next upgrade.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 12:04pm by muppenz
#15 Jun 23 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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If you want an idea of where they will probably go with their endgame/other things, just look at the more recent additions to XI.

Nyzul Isle Investigation, ANNM, ZNM, Assault

All of these things are relatively stress free methods of doing endgame activities.

Nyzul Isle is instanced floor climbs.
ANNM - Allied Notes notorious Monsters, spend points from a battle system to spawn nms
ZNM - Buy nm spawn items with points from taking pictures of monsters.
Assault - Instanced battlefields for rewards and points to buy great gear.

All of these things also drop great items and gear. Not the best but still great. As of late XI has started favoring the points system where everyone gains points for participating and you spend those points for rewards, not fighting over rare drops.
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#16Skeptic, Posted: Jun 23 2009 at 8:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Don't like the badge system idea, they should just introduce Relic gear later in the game like stated above. A Badge system would make me feel like I'm playing Pokemon: Online!
#17 Jun 23 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
But if the drop rates are bad, the badge system might be actually worse than RNG- that's why keeping it for intermediate rewards that don't take too long to acquire might be the best way to use the system.

It's not really important, but the math nerd in me is cringing. It can't be worse; it's mathematically impossible for it to be worse on average. If the two systems are set to average out the same kills per item then badges will always have a lower or equal standard deviation.

Let's say the standard item is a 10% drop rate. To have an equivalent system you could do something like require 10 badges which have a 100% drop rate, or you could do 5 badges with a 50% drop rate. In all three situations the average kills per item is 10, but the badge situations have a much narrower distribution for the amount of kills required. No one using the badge system has a chance to get an item on their very first kill, unless 1 badge = 1 item (which is still no worse than before). It's also far less likely that after 100 kills someone won't have at least 1 item with badges than with only item drops.

For badges to be more variable than the existing system you'd have to do something where you get more than 1 item per badge, such as a badge giving two items, which MMORPG developers almost certainly wouldn't do.
#18 Jun 23 2009 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not really important, but the math nerd in me is cringing. It can't be worse; it's mathematically impossible for it to be worse on average. If the two systems are set to average out the same kills per item then badges will always have a lower or equal standard deviation.

Let's say the standard item is a 10% drop rate. To have an equivalent system you could do something like require 10 badges which have a 100% drop rate, or you could do 5 badges with a 50% drop rate. In all three situations the average kills per item is 10, but the badge situations have a much narrower distribution for the amount of kills required. No one using the badge system has a chance to get an item on their very first kill, unless 1 badge = 1 item (which is still no worse than before). It's also far less likely that after 100 kills someone won't have at least 1 item with badges than with only item drops.

For badges to be more variable than the existing system you'd have to do something where you get more than 1 item per badge, such as a badge giving two items, which MMORPG developers almost certainly wouldn't do.


Hm, let me rephrase: it's not technically 'worse', but it may possibly feel like it.

In your example the drop rate is pretty good, so it would work well.

Let's use another example. The drop rate would be 5%, so you'd need 20 badges to get the reward. Now let's say you have 3 people who want the reward, and 1 guy would always have priority for the badges that drop.

The 3rd guy, who needs to do 60 runs before he gets the reward, may get discouraged more easily than if there was a random chance- you might get 2 items in a row like that, if you get lucky. The chance for that to happen might be what makes him come time after time.
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#19 Jun 23 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
It's not really important, but the math nerd in me is cringing. It can't be worse; it's mathematically impossible for it to be worse on average. If the two systems are set to average out the same kills per item then badges will always have a lower or equal standard deviation.

Let's say the standard item is a 10% drop rate. To have an equivalent system you could do something like require 10 badges which have a 100% drop rate, or you could do 5 badges with a 50% drop rate. In all three situations the average kills per item is 10, but the badge situations have a much narrower distribution for the amount of kills required. No one using the badge system has a chance to get an item on their very first kill, unless 1 badge = 1 item (which is still no worse than before). It's also far less likely that after 100 kills someone won't have at least 1 item with badges than with only item drops.

For badges to be more variable than the existing system you'd have to do something where you get more than 1 item per badge, such as a badge giving two items, which MMORPG developers almost certainly wouldn't do.


Hm, let me rephrase: it's not technically 'worse', but it may possibly feel like it.

In your example the drop rate is pretty good, so it would work well.

Let's use another example. The drop rate would be 5%, so you'd need 20 badges to get the reward. Now let's say you have 3 people who want the reward, and 1 guy would always have priority for the badges that drop.

The 3rd guy, who needs to do 60 runs before he gets the reward, may get discouraged more easily than if there was a random chance- you might get 2 items in a row like that, if you get lucky. The chance for that to happen might be what makes him come time after time.


This is a bit wrong, with a badge system _everyone_ gets their item at the same time. In a badge system, at least in WoW, everyone in the party will get a badge, meaning if you need to use 20 badges to get the item that you want, everyone in the group that did 20 runs will get the item also. So there is no second or third guy needing to wait.
#20 Jun 23 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Default
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The problem is that, like WoW, not every NM will have it's own badge. So yes, the drop rate on your uber item might be 5%. And so 20 badges might seem a reasonable amount. But, if you have the option of just going out and killing 20 bosses in a day to get the item, that's what everyone is going to do.

That's how WoW is now. In a week after max level, you can have your character completely geared out and ready for the highest level content. In patch 3.2, this will be even more so, as they are making all heroic dungeons and all raids drop Emblems of Conquest (the current highest level of emblems). The progression factor is completely removed.

Making good items rare and hard to get, is not a bad thing at all. It gives you something to aspire to.
#21 Jun 23 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Default
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This is a bit wrong, with a badge system _everyone_ gets their item at the same time. In a badge system, at least in WoW, everyone in the party will get a badge, meaning if you need to use 20 badges to get the item that you want, everyone in the group that did 20 runs will get the item also. So there is no second or third guy needing to wait.


Thats the same thing as tripling the drop rate, which would make the whole badge thing quite meaningless anyway.
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#22 Jun 23 2009 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
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Thats the same thing as tripling the drop rate, which would make the whole badge thing quite meaningless anyway.


This kind of thing tends to happen in anticipation for a new game, especially an MMORPG like Final Fantasy. I've gotten used to it since E3, lol. Me, personally, I am still sketchy on this whole "No levels" thing. That's the only thing that's been bothering me a bit about the game.

Is everyone really ok with having..no level base?

I'm 50/50 on it.
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#23 Jun 23 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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I don't quite understand the whole badge/relic thing, but this I do like.

Quote:
For some reason, I feel FFXIV would cater much better to a 'reputation' system, where you earn reputation with your kingdom (e.g. 'San d'Oria, Bastok, Windurst') for killing bosses. A modified conquest system with much stronger conquest rewards seems like a good alternative to the badge system. I'd love to see that get expanded upon.


I like this idea.
Perfect World had a system like this. You get repuation points for killing bosses, doing quests for your kingdom, and for attending random events - killing the enemies there - and collecting drops that have no purpose other than to turn them in to an NPC for reputation points.

With enough reputation points you get awarded gear, weapons, accessories, by an NPC in the town...for rewarding you for your devotion.
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#24 Jun 23 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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I rather have SE continue to be creative when it comes to their games then copy/follow the other games. So no, i don't support badge/token system.
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#25 Jun 23 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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I rather have SE continue to be creative when it comes to their games then copy/follow the other games. So no, i don't support badge/token system.


Good point. I think they said they were looking at the positive aspects of other MMORPGs and taking them into consideration when creating FFXIV. I think a lot of people are worried about a clone or overly typical game.

It would be very very interesting to see what SE can cook up when it comes to a system like this. I hope the game has several aspects that are original and innovative that nothing else has done before.
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