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Charge-based CombatFollow

#1 Jun 23 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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I do believe someone briefly mentioned this idea before, but it got me thinking. By no means do I think this is the route that SE is taking to change up combat, but was wondering how the community feels on the subject anyway.

Imagine you're in combat. You have your standard few buttons on your UI and at first glance it feels like another WoW clone. You go to cast cure on your ally, and he's in bad shape. Instead of pressing 'cure', you press and hold it. Your character begins to cast and holds the animation -- he's praying longer than normal -- until you let go. Then your friend is cured for a more-than-average amount. You're on the offensive now, and you begin to cast Ice. You cast, and your partner is doing a good job keeping the monster off of you, so you hold the button. You release, and Ice does more damage because you charged it longer. Maybe to balance this, charging up abilities like this generate an exponential amount of hate, so casters would have to find that delicate balance between good charge times and bad.

What does this mean for melee classes? Something I've long envisioned is a charge-based combo system. Mixing short, medium, and long charged attacks would unleash new weapon skills/abilities (separate from class abilities that you'd get by game progression). By doing that, in addition to simply using your weapon, your skill with that weapon grows and you unlock new combinations.

This would also add another layer to skill-chaining. Instead of certain spells being required for skill chains, you'd need each spell to be charged for a certain amount of time (or be charged to within a certain window). It adds a lot more customization to how people play -- short fast hits/casts or long, powerful strikes/spells -- without really having a draw back (as far as I can see).

edit 1:
The addition of a charge meter to the interface would be pretty cool. Maybe have it be in 5 different segments that fill up continuously until you let go of the button. The segment your marker falls in when you release the button determines the strength/outcome of your ability.

This could also add a lot of interesting abilities to the mix. Ones that change completely depending on where you are on the meter, and others that fill the meter at different rates (so you have to be more reactive). Eh?

edit 2: ability ranks

Down below, I wrote:
I was thinking about this, and this could be balanced for. Just going off the cuff, I'd say something like "holding Cure I for 4 seconds would be the equivalent of holding Cure II for 1 second". Mana costs would increase to balance this out (e.g. holding Cure I for 4 seconds costs roughly as much mp as holding Cure II for 1 second). What this means is that holding Cure II for more than 2 seconds results in an amount of healing you can't get by using Cure I, which would preserve the overall progression of spells by increasing their rank.


Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 4:06pm by Kharmageddon

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 5:32pm by Kharmageddon
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#2 Jun 23 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Default
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That means that stats of items would have to change, cost of MP would have to change, how much MP you rest when resting will have to change, etc.

Sounds like a great idea, don't get me wrong. But in would this only leave one kind of "Cure" spell since you can hold it this time around? EX: How much HP would Cure V heal which just one cast? And if you hold it? What's the MP costs for one cast or holding?

I love the idea, but there's a lot of things you have to take into consideration.
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#3 Jun 23 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Only problem really is will haste effect the time spent charging? Also say you misjudge your charge time and you accidentally don't charge long enough so you have to do it again wasting valuable time and possibly causing death.

I will say I like the old fashion way personally.
#4 Jun 23 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I really like this idea. It gives the player more control and adds an additional element of skill into the game. I would definitely like to see this in FFXIV.
#5 Jun 23 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Default
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I will say I like the old fashion way personally.


Agreed.

RDM and BLM/WHM I don't think would get much slack with this Technique in my eyes. WHM would never have any MP.
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#6 Jun 23 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Sounds cool. Only problem I see would be lagging and thus charging more/less than you originally wanted. If that issue can be overcome then I'd definitely like it.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 7:35pm by Hyanmen
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#7 Jun 23 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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This might be fine if it was an action MMO, but I have problems with it in a Final Fantasy or WoW type game. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea but it needs tweaking.

The most obvious problem is what Parade said and the system requires expert timing on the players part. Personally a "Hold for three seconds, release for two, and then ratatattat" does not seem like the best thing for an MMO. The other thing is when do you actually hold the button? It's not like spells are always instant casts do you need to wait the 5 seconds (or however long it was) for freeze and then hold it down?

I mean they can add in abilities that make skills take longer to use but stronger, and things like that, but I don't know if I want it to be widespread throughout the whole game.
#8 Jun 23 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Default
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This might be fine if it was an action MMO, but I have problems with it in a Final Fantasy or WoW type game. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea but it needs tweaking.

The most obvious problem is what Parade said and the system requires expert timing on the players part. Personally a "Hold for three seconds, release for two, and then ratatattat" does not seem like the best thing for an MMO. The other thing is when do you actually hold the button? It's not like spells are always instant casts do you need to wait the 5 seconds (or however long it was) for freeze and then hold it down?

I mean they can add in abilities that make skills take longer to use but stronger, and things like that, but I don't know if I want it to be widespread throughout the whole game.


Well said. Then you have to take into consideration all spells in general having this same "charge". Would this open up more Mana Burn/Zerg parties? Now that I discuss more about it to me it doesn't seem as much of a good idea.. =/

That, and all Casters would be Taru, period. Need that MP, baby.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 1:43pm by Skeptic
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#9 Jun 23 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't like it. It would make blackmages to powerful. I do think that skill chaining and magic bursts will be greatly improved. SE said they wanted to make balanced parties important to the game so skill chains and magic bursts will probably be greatly improved.
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#10 Jun 23 2009 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't like it. It would make blackmages to powerful.


..so what? You mean the same BLM you'd be partying with?

Describe too powerful. And wouldn't too powerful benefit YOU?
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#11 Jun 23 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Only problem really is will haste effect the time spent charging? Also say you misjudge your charge time and you accidentally don't charge long enough so you have to do it again wasting valuable time and possibly causing death.

That just puts more player skill into the job. I would love a system where player skill was a more important part of the system. It is something that would be relatively easy to get the hang of.

Quote:

I don't like it. It would make blackmages to powerful.

You are applying a potential concept for FFXIV to current FFXI standards. There is no reason to say that this could not be balanced well. (counterbalanced with hate, higher mp costs, longer recasts, etc). The system isn't only applicable to spells, but also melee too.
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#12 Jun 23 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Sounds like a great idea, don't get me wrong. But in would this only leave one kind of "Cure" spell since you can hold it this time around? EX: How much HP would Cure V heal which just one cast? And if you hold it? What's the MP costs for one cast or holding?


I was thinking about this, and this could be balanced for. Just going off the cuff, I'd say something like "holding Cure I for 4 seconds would be the equivalent of holding Cure II for 1 second". Mana costs would increase to balance this out (e.g. holding Cure I for 4 seconds costs roughly as much mp as holding Cure II for 1 second). What this means is that holding Cure II for more than 2 seconds results in an amount of healing you can't get by using Cure I, which would preserve the overall progression of spells by increasing their rank.
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#13 Jun 23 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Default
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Sounds too much like WoW for my Tastes. Me no like WoW. Me like Final Fantasy. {Can I have it?}
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#14 Jun 23 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Great on paper, very hard in reality to implement correctly. There is a lot of things that will and could go wrong with this kind of system.
#15 Jun 23 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Skeptic wrote:
Sounds too much like WoW for my Tastes. Me no like WoW. Me like Final Fantasy. {Can I have it?}


It is a sad, sad day when an idea that has no relation to WoW "sounds too much like WoW".
#16 Jun 23 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sounds too much like WoW for my Tastes. Me no like WoW. Me like Final Fantasy. {Can I have it?}


...what part of this sounds like WoW?
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#17 Jun 23 2009 at 11:57 AM Rating: Default
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Dunno, just wanted to take a shot at WoW. Bleh.

Don't see why everyone is bringing up WoW stuff on a Final Fantasy Forum today.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 3:58pm by Skeptic
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#18 Jun 23 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dunno, just wanted to take a shot at WoW. Bleh.

Don't see why everyone is bringing up WoW stuff on a Final Fantasy Forum today.


read: I want to try to fit in by criticizing another game and pretend like i know what i'm talking about but once i get called out on it i will pretend to be annoyed by the fact that people do it.
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#19 Jun 23 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I like your idea about "charges". Since this is final fantasy; How about casters have special ability called "Spell Delay" The caster picks a spell to cast, from there they have a choice to delay this spell. Now with the magic spell delayed, the caster will have a special animation around there character showing they have a delayed spell ready.

-- Since FFXIV will have a growth system, depending how much you skill up this ability, you can (maximum of 5 turns?) delay the spell for 5 turns and delay up to 3 spells (each spell having different delays).

For melee, i would probably do a variation of FFVI combo system AND the ability from FF:Tactics to be able to link up and do combo's with other melee.

Just tossing some idea's here, of course with these abilities it would probably make FFXIV battles fast paced and "actiony" (is that even a word? :P )

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 4:39pm by Yazumi
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#20 Jun 23 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:


read: I want to try to fit in by criticizing another game and pretend like i know what i'm talking about but once i get called out on it i will pretend to be annoyed by the fact that people do it.


Fail, although I'm flattered.

Sorry I never wasted my life playing WoW, never liked it. Rather waste it playing a good game like FF.
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#21 Jun 23 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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>=( you stole my idea that no one replied to!

[link=http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124543285084607025[/link]



Basicly my idea was this: The differt buttons: square triangle circle and X are assigned to differt spells in a catagory (elemental, enfeeble, divine, ect) you switch between catagorieswith the L and R shoulder bumpers.

So you go to cast Aero, you press the trianle button and a bar pops up on the screen. This bar is you charge bar, the more you charge it the stronger/differtn tier of magic is cast:

(-1-/-2-/-3-/-4-/-5-)

each bar is a tier of magic.
you charge to tier 3:

(xxx/xxx/xxx/-4-/-5-): Aero3

you charge to 5:

(xxx/xxx/xxx/xxx/xxx): Tornado

if you need to switch over to healing you bump over to your healing catagory.


For melee it would work the same. maybe you can have differnt stances you can choose from with the bumpers and you can press the buttons for quick attacks or charge them for "Weaponskills"


Things like regen, refresh, bar spells and bar songs (Buffs) could be accessed via the menu and in my world would last longer (30 mins +) . or are "Aura" type
effects and last for the duration that person is in a grp with you.
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#22 Jun 23 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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>=( you stole my idea that no one replied to!


Fixed in OP
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#23 Jun 23 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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This reminds me of a few of SE's earlier ideas in their old games:

FFT - archer's got an ability to "Charge" range attacks for more damage

Secret of Mana - you had a power bar that could "Charge" for 1-9 levels. While you held down a charge button, you could not initiate attacks, but the resulting charged attack had cooler animations and dealt massive damage.

FFIII/VI - I can't remember his name, (Edgar?) but the Katana wielding character had an option where, if you selected his charge, you couldn't access anyone else's ATB actions but you could access his more powerful skills the longer you had that menu up

Also, we've seen this idea somewhat in the form of FFXI Monk Boost job ability. It wouldn't hurt to try it, but the problem with implementation is probably boss fights - everyone would just Charge outside of aggro range, then zerg the boss with supercharged abilities.
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#24 Jun 23 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's a fun idea, and similar to something I've been talking about with a friend for a few weeks concerning a different game entirely.

There might be in-game balancing issues, but I don't see it should be dismissed so handily; it all very much works on paper.

The issue with these "charges" is that when you charge a spell past the default MP cost, it becomes increasingly less MP efficient on a simple scale. Sure, you could sacrifice, say, triple the original cost to make it twice as powerful. But it wouldn't be smart to do that regularly, and it also takes time to charge, so it's not like going double-strength would be that much faster than just casting twice. Really, you'd just have to make sure that, after the initial casting cost, every extra tier of damage is less efficient than the actual original cost vs damage equation.

The role this type of things plays is as an "option." Charging should never replace straight up repeat casts; you simply make it where there are situations where it's a matter of intelligent strategy. Spending 3x the cost of Fire 1 to do double the normal 25 points of damage to kill a monster with 50 HP left is pointless; but spending, say, just a little overcharge to kill a monster with 28HP when the spell regularly does 25 is probably more efficient than casting twice and wasting MP on the extra 22 points of damage. Make the player think, and make relying on charging a terrible thing to do.

Also, what about an input where you press the button once, and then, if you want to charge, you have to press it again; then it will just continue to charge with a bar with visible "tiers" on it, and you hit it again when it's in the tier you'd like.
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#25 Jun 23 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Default
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I think ppl fail to see that this idea would add in a worst case scenario.
1.charge casting would take to much time in some cases to accomplish other spell casting quickly.
2. if network issues should arise such as heavy lag spikes, disconnection issues or being attack at that very moment this method would be utterly useless.

If you had to hold to charge spells during these issues you would most likely lead to a spell interruption and would have to start all over again and would lead too to many complication.
#26 Jun 23 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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How about instead of "charging" your spells before use. Your individual spells had a skill based gauge that would increase the potency of your spells, and slightly altered the spells animation with each skill rank up for that particular spell.

Example, fire 1 (rank1/rank2/rank3/rank4) the more you used fire 1 the stronger it became and had the potential to increase your elemental skill, and skill with fire. So technically if you continously used fire based spells all through out your career you would be considered a fire mage and be deadly in the arts in fire, while other spells would be lacking. Higher ranks could also lead to quicker casting time. Which I see to be a benefit over simply charging the spell over a long period of time.
#27 Jun 23 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
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That sounds the same as Eeverquest. I know where your going with this also, could work.
#28 Jun 23 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Not entirely, what i'm saying is , you have magical skills the consist of overall elemental skill that helps you to keep from resisting and accuracy against monsters alot stronger than you and your interupt rate. Then sub skills such as fire, ice, etc etc, which causes you to accel in a particular element. Then add ranks the more you use the spell for added damage and newer animation, yet still have room to improve in other spells.
#29 Jun 23 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Default
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this is pretty much how eq spell casting is.
#30 Jun 23 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Which eq? I played eq1, and don't recall this.
#31 Jun 23 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Default
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EQ 1,
where u keep repeatedly keep casting to build up your spells strength. The more you constantly keep casting, the better the spell is. Though i would like to see new animation varying from different levels of the spell.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 8:51pm by gaiaxzero
#32 Jun 23 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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gaiaxzero wrote:
I think ppl fail to see that this idea would add in a worst case scenario.
1.charge casting would take to much time in some cases to accomplish other spell casting quickly.
2. if network issues should arise such as heavy lag spikes, disconnection issues or being attack at that very moment this method would be utterly useless.

If you had to hold to charge spells during these issues you would most likely lead to a spell interruption and would have to start all over again and would lead too to many complication.


Yeah i guess it would be a little harder to select your next spell if you wanted to go from casting to enfeeble, or what ever.

Check my original post, it goes a little further into detail on how my version works.

[link=http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124543285084607025[/link]

basicly buff type spells are more Aura type effects. so batspells, refresh and regen things liek that last longer than a few min. more on the scale of 5-30 min at a time. so having to switch back to cast isn't an issue.
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#33 Jun 24 2009 at 5:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Too many people arguing against something like this are stuck in the thoughts of the FF11 system. It could work nicely offering some needed variety to what would be a boring routine.
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#34 Jun 24 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Levish wrote:
Too many people arguing against something like this are stuck in the thoughts of the FF11 system.

Exactly. A lot of the "problems" being brought up either wouldn't be a problem or would only exist if FFXIV worked exactly like FFXI.

gaiaxzero wrote:
I think ppl fail to see that this idea would add in a worst case scenario.
1.charge casting would take to much time in some cases to accomplish other spell casting quickly.
2. if network issues should arise such as heavy lag spikes, disconnection issues or being attack at that very moment this method would be utterly useless.

If you had to hold to charge spells during these issues you would most likely lead to a spell interruption and would have to start all over again and would lead too to many complication.

What?
1. No, it doesn't. How could it possibly make it more difficult to cast other spells? Move your finger to the cast key for the spell you want to cahrge, hold it down, then move your finger to the next spell key you want to cast... it's not hard. A toddler could do it.

2. No, lag wouldn't matter more than it already does. Sure you could lag while charging a spell, just like you can lag already when using a weapon skill or aiming for a magic burst. The charging would be done client side like everything else and so you'd always charge the spell exactly how it appeared on your screen regardless of lag. You're also assuming there will be a spell interruption system exactly like in FFXI.

Dik wrote:
Also, we've seen this idea somewhat in the form of FFXI Monk Boost job ability. It wouldn't hurt to try it, but the problem with implementation is probably boss fights - everyone would just Charge outside of aggro range, then zerg the boss with supercharged abilities.

So? They get a very minor damage boost.

Here's a simple example Normally a fire 2 spell takes 1.5 seconds to cast. Mages have an option to cast it at twice it's damage by charging for an additional 1.5 seconds, for a total of 3 seconds cast time. Big whoop. So the very first hit on a boss does a minor double damage boost, and the rest of the fight is normal. So on average the party/alliance might kill the boss .1% faster than they normally do. It's not a problem at all.
Obiar wrote:
I don't like it. It would make blackmages to powerful.

No... because melee could have the same exact feature. They charge their axe attack for a little longer for extra damage. It can be perfectly balanced for any class.
Litie wrote:
The most obvious problem is what Parade said and the system requires expert timing on the players part

But it doesn't require expert timing. Holding down the number 3 for a few second isn't expert timing. If you had to press a sequence of number in .3 second intervals to get a spell off that would be expert timing. This is something a toddler could do.



It's not a system that I think should be applied to every spell and ability in the game, otherwise it would become tedious. But it adds a nice variety to the different types of abilities players can use. You can have normal cast time abilities, instants, channeling, and charge moves.
#35 Jun 24 2009 at 9:19 PM Rating: Default
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I doubt this is really going to happen.
#36 Jun 24 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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gaiaxzero wrote:
I doubt this is really going to happen.


Well, so do I. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea or that it's not entertaining to talk about.
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#37Skeptic, Posted: Jun 24 2009 at 9:24 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) But..it's not.
#38 Jun 24 2009 at 9:26 PM Rating: Default
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i really am looking forward to seeing how they will revamp magic casting, timer, and macro's. would like to see a better way of placing spells in better order as well.
#39 Jun 24 2009 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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Skeptic wrote:
But..it's not.


...To...you?

Right, I forgot, your opinions are everyone's opinions. Have fun with that!

If you don't care, then...get out of the thread? Most of us are sane enough to usually only post in threads we're interested in. Some of us are even interested in just shooting the breeze about random gameplay concepts.

I mean, it's outlandish. People liking things you don't, but.

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#40 Jun 24 2009 at 10:06 PM Rating: Default
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...To...you?


Well, yes. And to everyone else that already knows this probably won't happen.
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#41 Jun 24 2009 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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Well, yes. And to everyone else that already knows this probably won't happen.


Nice assumption, oh greatly omniscient Skeptic. But not quite.

There are many many reasons why people care about things other than them simply being likely to happen.
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#42 Jun 25 2009 at 4:37 AM Rating: Good
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I like where your heart is at, Skeptic... except for this:

Kharmageddon wrote:
By no means do I think this is the route that SE is taking to change up combat, but was wondering how the community feels on the subject anyway.


That's the second sentence in my original post. I'd say your user name is a little too fitting.
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#43 Jun 25 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Default
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was wondering how the community feels on the subject anyway.


Stating how I feel. Simple as that.
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#44 Jun 25 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Skeptic wrote:
And to everyone else that already knows this probably won't happen.

Well, no. This could very easily be a feature implemented in the game. There's zero evidence supporting it and zero evidence against it's existence. There is barely any reason for SE to implement it, but no reason for them not to implement it either. SE also has a habit of implementing strange and unexpected systems in their games.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 11:00am by Allegory
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