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#1 Jun 23 2009 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
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Building upon this:
triplealphareaction wrote:
Rather than jumping I want to see being able to run and cast spells, maybe not all spells, maybe not the most powerful of spells, but your everyday stuff you cast loads, buffs, heals etc yeah I want to be able to cast on the move.


Since it was noted that this won't be a level based game there's the possibility that your spells level up the more you use them, or at least something similar. Maybe you equip an item that lets you use the spell and if you use it enough you'll be able to perform the spell without the help of the item. If the game is anything like this.. I propose this:

After increasing a spell past a certain level, what I'll call the critical point, you'll be allowed to cast the spell while moving. Obviously we don't want this to happen with all spells, especially very strong ones. But it would be very nice for the weaker spells to get this at 'mid levels' and for the medium spells to get this at their 'high levels'. My MMO knowledge is limited, but I'm pretty sure a lot of games that allow casting don't allow for spells to be cast while moving. If this was implemented in a smart way it could really give a gigantic boost to the games popularity and enjoyment.

Anybody else have any thoughts or comments?

edit: Another possible idea that I like is this thought: The more advanced in a spell you become the farther you're allowed to deviate from the initial casting position before it interrupts. If you're trying to cast a spell that's way above your abilities you can't move an inch. If you're casting a spell that you're decently good with you can move around maybe 5-10 yalms. And if you're casting a spell that you mastered eons ago you can perform a steeple chase without getting intruppted.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 12:50pm by Deadgye
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#2 Jun 23 2009 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to admit this was a pain in the bum.... i hope they fix that siting there selfcasting summons and stuff to cap skill
#3 Jun 24 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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If this happened in FFXI I'd end up teleporting to places I don't want to be a lot. Smiley: lol
#4 Jun 24 2009 at 12:27 AM Rating: Good
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I would really like casting while moving. There was a lot of things I had troubles with in Vanguard but I absolutely loved how almost every ability could be cast while walking. It just forced you to be walking and couldn't run while doing it, stuns happened automatically through the abilities the mobs did and interuptioned happened when they literally sent you flying.
#5 Jun 24 2009 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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I'm honestly not a fan of the idea. Granted, I was never a fan of instant spells in the first place, because I've always viewed playing mages as a slower, thoughtful and strategic playstyle.

Melee types should be the ones spamming abilities while running, but not mages. Never mages. I'd like the playstyles to be distinguishable and I'm sure most other mage people would probably agree with me.

Faster casting past the 'critical point' would be fine, but while moving? I really don't know about that.

Edit: Granted, this would really depend (for me) on which jobs had this ability.

Say, if Blue Mages, Red Mages (or Geomancers) got a Job Trait that allowed them to cast spells while moving, that'd be just fine with me, as they're more of a melee and mage hybrid.
But for pure caster types, I think it'd be against their long-established play styles.


Edited, Jun 24th 2009 2:05am by Kirbster
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#6 Jun 24 2009 at 1:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Pikko wrote:
If this happened in FFXI I'd end up teleporting to places I don't want to be a lot. Smiley: lol


That's only because you're used to it. Smiley: tongue You could always get used to healing or maybe they could add a cancel button. :p

Quote:
I'm honestly not a fan of the idea. Granted, I was never a fan of instant spells in the first place, because I've always viewed playing mages as a slower, thoughtful and strategic playstyle.

Melee types should be the ones spamming abilities while running, but not mages. Never mages. I'd like the playstyles to be distinguishable and I'm sure most other mage people would probably agree with me.


Well I'm not really looking for a bunch of instant cast spells. Maybe you should be allowed to instacast your spells for .25 the effect and .8 the mana cost. Smiley: lol

Like the above poster said maybe it could restrict you to half the normal movement speed. Being able to move around at least a little bit would greatly reduce the amount of times you get interrupted because you took half a step by accident.

And on that note, if they don't allow moving while casting at least give us a little leeway. Instead of having the cast be interrupted if you move at all from your original position give us the ability to move maybe 3 yalms in any direction and still have the spell work.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 5:09am by Deadgye
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#7 Jun 24 2009 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I always thought of casting spells as something you have to concentrate on- like you can see from the casting animations already. Now if you moved while doing it, it might look kinda awkward. Upper body does the casting animation while lower body is running/walking.. Eh, walking might work after all I guess.

I found the "you cannot cast spells while moving" spam in XI annoying, should get rid of that at least.

edit: could make it into a trait for redmages or whatever the melee mage will be in this game? While everyone else could get to enjoy the "fast cast" this time

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 11:23am by Hyanmen
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#8 Jun 24 2009 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
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The concentration effect still applies here. That's why I don't want to allow movement during all spells. If you're only mildly useful with a spell then you should have to concentrate to use it. But if you've completely mastered a spell it should be easy for you to use it, right?

The 3 yalm buffer for movement should be there at least. Not just for spells but ranged attacks too. I can't count the amount of times I missed NM claims because I stopped running, started performing a ranged attack on a NM, and got shut down because apparently I didn't wait long enough between when I "stopped running" and started the ranged attack.
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#9 Jun 24 2009 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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It would be nice to cast cure on someone while running through a lower level zone without having to stop.

If I were powerful enough to cast Meteo, would it really be that tough just to say "fire" while running and cast Fire I?
#10 Jun 24 2009 at 1:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd be happy if they allowed us to move while casting, yet stopping for the actual spell animation like in FF12.
Granted, they should get rid o the stupid animation lock AND the even more stupid stun effect we get after casting, which prevents us from casting another spell immediatly after another.
(This happens with Stun a lot to me. I can cast Blizzard IV and then Aspir immediately after it, but I can't do the same if I cast Stun first.
Why does Stun have to stun us too?)

I can't name any MMORPG that allows full casting while moving/running off the top of my head. I tried WoW and Aion and other smaller games and I never encoutered this possibility.
I agree with the concentration while casting thing, it looks more "realistic" to me.
#11 Jun 24 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
Ok so some people are against moving and casting and its true if it was arbitarily implemented it could upset the roleplay feel of being a mage, but if I am a whm for example, why can't I heal myself whilst running away from some mob that is about to eat me, is that really too much to ask? So self cast spells on the move and have to stop to cast on someone/thing else?


Edited, Jun 24th 2009 8:50am by triplealphareaction
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#12 Jun 24 2009 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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How is that different in any way, in terms of the roleplay mage playstyle?

Also it occurs to me that you could pretty much kite forever, which is presumably game-breaking.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 5:56am by Kirbster
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#13 Jun 24 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
You can only kite forever if you can cure strong enough and often enough, as I said its about how it is implemented.
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#14 Jun 24 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Decent
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If this happened in FFXI I'd end up teleporting to places I don't want to be a lot. Smiley: lol


/sit or 'h' ;)

As far as moving while casting...I like the idea for lower level spells to be able to do that. But we really have to see how the mechanics are actually going to be. Will we get Protect 1, 2, 3, 4 again or will we get Protect that will scale with us forever?

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 9:36am by mpmaley
#15 Jun 24 2009 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe make it a high-end RDM buff:

Mental Awareness
Target: Self/Friendly
Effect: Target's next N spells can be cast while moving.
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#16 Jun 24 2009 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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What RPG game have you played where you can move and cast, at the same time?

I admit, I haven't played every single RPG, but for every RPG I have played, you can't move and cast. It takes concentration to cast, even the slightest of spells. I have never felt restricted by having to remain stationary while casting. That's just me, though...
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#17 Jun 24 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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Not a fan of this idea, and I am a blm at heart. Of course this would be a big help to mages, but this would make the job way too easy. Then you say on some spells, this would raise the arguement, why can I run and cast on this spell but not on this one. Running and casting doesn't really sound right to me anyway, I thought of casting as concentrating, and how can you concentrate and move. Low tier spells cast fast enough anyway, then things like fast-cast ability is enough.
#18 Jun 24 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
How can you concentrate and move? Ask any sportsman.
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#19 Jun 24 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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edit - I mixed up the context. You were actually answering the question. My bad.

I completely agree -- it's possible to concentrate and move. I think mages should be allowed to cast their weaker spells and their self-buff spells on the move. I can't think of a practical reason that a RDM needs to take time to imbue his weapon with an element. Conversely, I *do* think it's way more immersive if it did take 1-2 seconds.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 11:36am by Kharmageddon
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#20 Jun 24 2009 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with both sides of the discussion. As a mage (all mage jobs 41+) /some/ spells could be cast while moving. Your absolutely right that a master may concentrate on high level magic but he shouldn't have to even think about a lower level one. It would make things off balanced though. Think about it...a 75RDM using Chainspell still can't cast Cure 1 on the move. I think its a good idea to have a job ability to make the next tier 1 or 2 spell able to cast while moving. As for the whole "Learn it from an item..." thats a direct rip off of the Immortal learning system in Lost Odyssey And one I was not particularly fond of. After spending hours grinding crap for the immortals I got bored with the whole freakin' game. I've played quite a few MMOs and Console RPGs and there has been "Instant" spells in WoW that you could cast while moving, I think that could be incorporated into FFXIV.
#21 Jun 24 2009 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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The only way to make casting while moving a viable option would be to force people to face the target of their spell. If this requirement wasn't in place, any and every monster worth killing would have to have a draw-in ability or a root/snare to prevent mage kiting from being enormously overpowered. From a solo perspective, SE would be better off giving low-defense type character builds snares and/or roots to keep them out of harm's way while they load up the nukes but still require players to stand still in order to use any ability with a > 0 second cast time. Instant use/cast abilities should be something you can do while moving in my opinion. Anything else and everyone would be building characters with offensive nukes as part of their standard dps repertoire.
#22 Jun 24 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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SayzarL wrote:
As for the whole "Learn it from an item..." thats a direct rip off of the Immortal learning system in Lost Odyssey And one I was not particularly fond of.


Umm...It was around much earlier than Lost Odyssey. I think that while you should be able to move during the casting time, you should have to stop for the cast to finish, like in FFXII. You could channel the spell all you wanted by moving around, but as soon as you stopped moving the spell was cast. I can see counter arguments being, "Then whm would cast cure, and run around until that someone needed a cure." This could be true, but how much more annoying would it be to run around with a spell fully channeled as opposed to just timing the spell right? Obviously not all spells should be able to be cast like this, summons for example.
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#23 Jun 24 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Not a fan of this idea, and I am a blm at heart. Of course this would be a big help to mages, but this would make the job way too easy. Then you say on some spells, this would raise the argument, why can I run and cast on this spell but not on this one. Running and casting doesn't really sound right to me anyway, I thought of casting as concentrating, and how can you concentrate and move. Low tier spells cast fast enough anyway, then things like fast-cast ability is enough.


How? If you can cast fire IV, then fire is obviously a very simple spell. Would you not think that a master of black magic needing to drop everything to concentrate on a very simple spell is silly?

Also, this isn't ffxi: we can't just assume that fast-cast ability is enough when we don't even know if it's in the game yet, yet alone how it might function differently.

Quote:
It would make things off balanced though. Think about it...a 75RDM using Chainspell still can't cast Cure 1 on the move.


Good thing we know for a fact that there are level 75 red mages in ffxiv who have access to the chainspell ability. <.<; They can't cast cure 1 on the move because in ffxi you can't cast anything on the move. It would only throw things off balance if it's implemented poorly. I'm not recommending a poorly thought version of it be in the game. I'm merely throwing out the thought of it as an awesome idea that they could expand upon.

Quote:
As for the whole "Learn it from an item..." that's a direct rip off of the Immortal learning system in Lost Odyssey


Erm, no. FF9 predates that easily and I'm sure FF9 was not the first game to use that system.

Quote:
The only way to make casting while moving a viable option would be to force people to face the target of their spell. If this requirement wasn't in place, any and every monster worth killing would have to have a draw-in ability or a root/snare to prevent mage kiting from being enormously overpowered. From a solo perspective, SE would be better off giving low-defense type character builds snares and/or roots to keep them out of harm's way while they load up the nukes but still require players to stand still in order to use any ability with a > 0 second cast time. Instant use/cast abilities should be something you can do while moving in my opinion. Anything else and everyone would be building characters with offensive nukes as part of their standard dps repertoire.


Except... that would only apply if you could cast all spells while moving. Which is not what I've been suggesting. I don't want mages to be able to run around like a chicken without it's head while casting the equivalent of burst. (Which you actually can do in ffxi.) I just want to see the ability to move around for spells that are considered "a cinch to use".

----------

Another possible idea that I like is this thought: The more advanced in a spell you become the farther you're allowed to deviate from the initial casting position before it interrupts. If you're trying to cast a spell that's way above your abilities you can't move an inch. If you're casting a spell that you're decently good with you can move around maybe 5-10 yalms. And if you're casting a spell that you mastered eons ago you can perform a steeple chase without getting intruppted.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 12:27pm by Deadgye
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#24 Jun 24 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Eeri wrote:
I can't name any MMORPG that allows full casting while moving/running off the top of my head. I tried WoW and Aion and other smaller games and I never encoutered this possibility.
I agree with the concentration while casting thing, it looks more "realistic" to me.

You could in WoW, but only with certain types of spells. Spells that could be described as an "Enchantment", "Blessing", "Curse" or something similar, would typically be castable while running. AKA simple spells. The sorta things that don't seem like they would require as much concentration.

Buffs, debuffs, weak magical attacks, were all of the sort that could be done while moving in WoW.

Which makes sense from a logical perspective. You'd have to stand and concentrate to form a large fireball to throw at monsters. But if you are skilled enough to throw such a large fireball, it makes sense that you could throw a weaker baseball sized fireball without any real effort. Almost casually.

That's sorta how it is with any skill. When you develop a skill, if you need to go backwards and do a simplier task, you can generally complete it with zero effort, even if it would have taken you a great deal of effort earlier in your life.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 12:44pm by Karelyn
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#25 Jun 24 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Another possible idea that I like is this thought: The more advanced in a spell you become the farther you're allowed to deviate from the initial casting position before it interrupts. If you're trying to cast a spell that's way above your abilities you can't move an inch. If you're casting a spell that you're decently good with you can move around maybe 5-10 yalms. And if you're casting a spell that you mastered eons ago you can perform a steeple chase without getting intruppted.


This makes perfect sense. Also don't get me wrong I would love to able to run around the world twice and still cast R3 on someone, I was mearly just implying that Even with lower level spells having the ability of casting while on the move would make mages (and some spell casting melee) Slightly over powered (not completely) An example would be DRK, Drain to them would be a very low spell, yet allowing them to cast it on the move you get A. A damaged Mob and B. Self healing. So with that and Aspir (On non undead AND MP using/keeping mobs) They would be able to endlessly fight something untill it died. Or is this more of a hypocritical thing...Has to have "Mage" in the name for it to apply?
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#26 Jun 24 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
Its good there seems to be some kind of concensus forming here, even though we won't all agree I am sure.
Just as an illustration of what I am thinking to those opposed to casting on the move, in FFXI would you not like to be able to cast snk/invis on you and your party without having to stop?
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#27 Jun 24 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Quote:
As for the whole "Learn it from an item..." that's a direct rip off of the Immortal learning system in Lost Odyssey


Erm, no. FF9 predates that easily and I'm sure FF9 was not the first game to use that system


FFVI or FFIII you learn spells from items, such as Ultima from the Ultima sword. Again, there's probably a game that utilizes this feature which predates both of them.
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#28 Jun 24 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:

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The only way to make casting while moving a viable option would be to force people to face the target of their spell. If this requirement wasn't in place, any and every monster worth killing would have to have a draw-in ability or a root/snare to prevent mage kiting from being enormously overpowered. From a solo perspective, SE would be better off giving low-defense type character builds snares and/or roots to keep them out of harm's way while they load up the nukes but still require players to stand still in order to use any ability with a > 0 second cast time. Instant use/cast abilities should be something you can do while moving in my opinion. Anything else and everyone would be building characters with offensive nukes as part of their standard dps repertoire.


Except... that would only apply if you could cast all spells while moving. Which is not what I've been suggesting. I don't want mages to be able to run around like a chicken without it's head while casting the equivalent of burst. (Which you actually can do in ffxi.) I just want to see the ability to move around for spells that are considered "a cinch to use".


Big, big gray area. Generally speaking, the spells that are a "cinch" to use would fall under the category of instant cast, which would ideally be something you could cast while moving. Anything not instant cast would have to require the caster to face their target or you'd end up with a broken system right out of the box.
#29 Jun 24 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Anybody else have any thoughts or comments?

This is exactly what instant spells are that many MMORPGs already have. IT has worked fine in many games and could easily work fine in FFXIV.
#30 Jun 24 2009 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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I think all offensive spells should require you to be facing your target, unless it's some sort of area of effect spell. I'm not fond of running away from something and hitting it with a spell, without turning to face it first, even if only for a split second.
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#31 Jun 24 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Stopping to casting sneak and invis, takes 5 seconds if that. There are many ways this system would be abused, even if you can only cast cure 1 or 2 (or low tier spells), on yourself while moving. Using real life examples, or logic to back this up really doesn't make sense because noone knows how much concentration you need to do a fire 1 spell. I think more then anything, the biggest reason why you can't move and cast is not concentration (this is a game so nothing is real), but is because SE knows a system like this could easily be exploited. Someone mentioned that in WoW you can do this or something (I wouldn't know), but since WoW is viewed as an extremely easy game, I hope they is not going the easy route. I loved the times when im getting chased and I know i'm about to die so I have to stop real quick and cast heal (but not cast too fast or it will interupt), just to make it to the zone alive.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 2:34pm by HocusP

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 2:35pm by HocusP
#32 Jun 24 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Now that I think about it, from a fantasy stand point, it makes just as much sense that a character could never cast even the most basic things while moving. Cure 1 could always take the same amount of concentration, but the difference is as you progress as a magic user, you can concentrate that amount more often before being drained (e.g. an increase in your MP). Concentrating on curing someone the first time you do it could be completely draining, but that same amount of concentration may not be killer once you've mastered more abilities later down the road. It's still the same amount, but relatively speaking, it's not as much (low MP cost). Eh?
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#33 Jun 24 2009 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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This seems like a pretty likely change if the game is going with a faster-paced battle system, and almost essential if it's a roaming battle system. I don't see any problem with it.

I don't know if I'd go with the part where you can only move when you've mastered a particular spell though. It seems to me that it takes away the point if the change isn't universal. What would be the use of being able to cast Cure I while running if you're using Cure III 90% of the time and have to stop? If you can always count on being able to move while casting, then the devs can build the battle system around that. If it's sporadic, they can't and we end up with a weird hybrid of FFXI's static combat and a more dynamic system.
#34 Jun 24 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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Borkachev wrote:
This seems like a pretty likely change if the game is going with a faster-paced battle system, and almost essential if it's a roaming battle system. I don't see any problem with it.

I don't know if I'd go with the part where you can only move when you've mastered a particular spell though. It seems to me that it takes away the point if the change isn't universal. What would be the use of being able to cast Cure I while running if you're using Cure III 90% of the time and have to stop? If you can always count on being able to move while casting, then the devs can build the battle system around that. If it's sporadic, they can't and we end up with a weird hybrid of FFXI's static combat and a more dynamic system.


Devs can't tune content so that you're moving all the time because of melee roles. At some point, a melee class is going to be best served by being able to stand still so they aren't losing attack time to out of range issues. Kite fights are interesting from time to time, but if the game is tuned around them it's going to get old real fast. Casters already have a significant advantage in that a moving mob isn't necessarily going to affect them nearly as much as a melee role. They don't need full freedom to zip around at full output. Stand still and cast, then move. There's a lot more potential for diverse content if you have to choose between eating <insta-gibb attack of doom> or interrupting your cast to move out of the way.
#35 Jun 24 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Big, big gray area. Generally speaking, the spells that are a "cinch" to use would fall under the category of instant cast, which would ideally be something you could cast while moving. Anything not instant cast would have to require the caster to face their target or you'd end up with a broken system right out of the box.


Well.. not really. All "cinch" spells aren't always cinch spells. Nor are they automatically instant cast spells. When you learn fire, it's an awesome spell. But when you can cast fire III and IV, fire is worthlessly easy.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the idea that I edited in. It, imo, allows for greater freedom with more room for error. It also can't really be easily abused. In fact.. I don't think could really do anything you'd do with it abuse.
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#36 Jun 24 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
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Big, big gray area. Generally speaking, the spells that are a "cinch" to use would fall under the category of instant cast, which would ideally be something you could cast while moving. Anything not instant cast would have to require the caster to face their target or you'd end up with a broken system right out of the box.


Well.. not really. All "cinch" spells aren't always cinch spells. Nor are they automatically instant cast spells. When you learn fire, it's an awesome spell. But when you can cast fire III and IV, fire is worthlessly easy.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the idea that I edited in. It, imo, allows for greater freedom with more room for error. It also can't really be easily abused. In fact.. I don't think could really do anything you'd do with it abuse.


Ehh...I honestly could think of a lot more beneficial and interesting things the devs could create mechanics to handle than letting you cast obsolete spells on the move. Why you would want to be able to move and cast spells numerous tiers below anything that would benefit you in at-level content is beyond me. Obviously that doesn't make you wrong for thinking it's a neat idea, but what's the point? Terrorizing lowbie zones? It wouldn't even really be a beneficial farming tool unless SE stuck with the whole idea of loot instantly going to your inventory on mob kill.

Strictly in terms of development time to implement, I think it would be kind of a pointless addition.
#37 Jun 24 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Those that say no to casting while walking need to try Vanguard and see that it can easily implemented and even open up new strategies and its not 'easily' abused one might think it is. You are not running while casting, your movement slows down but you can still move around (if i remember right you also still need to be at least facing the mob too so you end up strifing and walking backwards essentially, but its automatic so your essentially 'locked' into casting unless you /cancel the spell, or put your self in a place where you can't see the mob)... basically you still won't beable to kite but you won't get interuptions from the slightest movement mistake whether game made or player accidental. Stopping to cast may seem ideal from the most standard of lore of fantasy, but it doesn't mean a new fantasy story can't come up with a system it makes sense in.

And like I said mobs can still interrupt you like any other game by simply attacking you, stunning you, or flat out sending you flying. This system also means that mobs TOO can cast while moving and stuns and crowd control abilities will be even more neccesary. Not saying it needs to be in FFXIV, we have no idea what the system is going to be like in battle, but it can be easily done to make sense without abuse.
#38 Jun 24 2009 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
Borkachev wrote:
This seems like a pretty likely change if the game is going with a faster-paced battle system, and almost essential if it's a roaming battle system. I don't see any problem with it.

I don't know if I'd go with the part where you can only move when you've mastered a particular spell though. It seems to me that it takes away the point if the change isn't universal. What would be the use of being able to cast Cure I while running if you're using Cure III 90% of the time and have to stop? If you can always count on being able to move while casting, then the devs can build the battle system around that. If it's sporadic, they can't and we end up with a weird hybrid of FFXI's static combat and a more dynamic system.


Devs can't tune content so that you're moving all the time because of melee roles. At some point, a melee class is going to be best served by being able to stand still so they aren't losing attack time to out of range issues. Kite fights are interesting from time to time, but if the game is tuned around them it's going to get old real fast. Casters already have a significant advantage in that a moving mob isn't necessarily going to affect them nearly as much as a melee role. They don't need full freedom to zip around at full output. Stand still and cast, then move. There's a lot more potential for diverse content if you have to choose between eating <insta-gibb attack of doom> or interrupting your cast to move out of the way.


I don't mean a kiting system. I'm picturing something more like FFXI's roaming parties, or the system in FFXII where you fight everything along the way as you move from one end of a zone to the other. In these situations, the game would definitely be improved by allowing you to do your healing and buffs on the go.

Offensive magic might be a different story. I'm not even sure there would be much need for moving while casting that kind of thing.
#39 Jun 24 2009 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Borkachev wrote:
I don't mean a kiting system. I'm picturing something more like FFXI's roaming parties, or the system in FFXII where you fight everything along the way as you move from one end of a zone to the other. In these situations, the game would definitely be improved by allowing you to do your healing and buffs on the go.

Offensive magic might be a different story. I'm not even sure there would be much need for moving while casting that kind of thing.


Eventually the tank and/or melee are going to have to stop and fight...that's when the buffers can step in and do their thing. Either the buffs are going to be of long enough duration that they won't need to be refreshed on the move, or they're going to be of such a short duration that refreshing them on the move would be a waste of resources in a lot of cases.

I'm not opposed to casting while on the move from a general point of view, I just don't see it as being such a factor that it's worth implementing. I also think that if it were implemented it would have to be done very carefully. Having to stand still while casting is part of the limitations that balance the benefits of being able to stand clear of the fray. From a tank's point of view, if a healer or ranged dps pulls threat, I don't want them to have the option to continue to build threat while they run screaming from the angry mob. They already have that window of safety accounting for their option to stand at range to offset their inherent squishiness; there has to be some sort of balancing aspect.
#40 Jun 24 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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My understanding, from what alot of people are saying, is that casting while moving = instant casts. This is definately not the case. You would initiate the cast, and be able to move during the casting animation, then stop to perform the cast.

As for the exploitable kiting/runaway-cast, if you didn't notice in FFXI almost all the mobs move at least 1.5x the speed of the character, meaning even if you were running away from them they would catch you, not to mention the times you would have to stop to face the mob for the cast to go off. This really just evens the playing field for mages that would like to solo. Melee don't even have to move because they generally take less damage and dont have to worry about interruptions. Mages would still take damage, they would just get hit less because the mob would have to catch up to them (And it would catch up to them because it moves faster than them). This leads me to my next point, Interruptions.

In my opinion Interruptions should only happen if the mage cancels the spell or recieves a 'Stun' type effect. If you get hit while concentrating you say "Owww," and go right back to what you were doing. Damage should stop casts for say .5seconds, but the cast should continue until it is finished, cancelled, or the amge dies.

The exception is Redmages with Gravity. From my understanding Gravity was meant to be used for kiting. You have to remember that Kiting takes a ridiculous amount of time to kill, so its generally not effective for exping. In order to counter kite-killing bosses, SE should implement a passive regen effect for most high level bosses. While DoTs are still effective in reducing/eliminating that regen, they really can't kill the boss. This makes kiting bosses impossible and solves the problem.

Let me know if I went wrong somewhere...
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#41 Jun 24 2009 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Lets see

MMOs like WoW have three different types of spells...

Instant
-Spells that can be cast while moving. They, as the name implies, can be used instantly. You normally do not have to be facing the target to use these.

Cast
-Normal spells, like the ones you find in FFXI. They have a set cast time that can sometimes be reduced by different means. You much be facing the target in order to use these type of spells. (In WoW at least)

Channeled
-I believe these spells do not exist in FFXI, at least I don't remember any. Channeled spells happen instantly, but you must maintain the spell with continual casting. Most channeled spells are area of effect spells.

(Some games have spells that need to be cast (not instant) and then channeled)

Now FFXI only as normal cast spells to my knowledge. The first step is obviously to change this. Once you get instant and channeled spells it's obvious that both of those don't apply to the argument. You can already cast instants while moving, and you will never be able to move while channeling a spell, moving while doing this defeats the handicap.

Now, if FFXIV adds instants and channeled spells why would they even need to have moving while casting? In reality most non combat buffs should be instant anyways (sneak, invis..) and a lot of combat buffs should be instant too. (Like every single en spell).

Also if there was movement while casting I agree that melee classes would need things like snares and intercepts. in WoW kiting and things like that are extremely limited by the ability of melee classes to close large distances fairly quickly. In FFXI there was really no need for this since in FFXI kiting was never a popular thing to do.

The other thing is in FFXI there was little reason to even cast while moving. Everything you fought was basically pulled to you. You stayed in the same spot. There might of been an oh crap moment or so where it would be useful, but that's really it.

In closing, a lot of other stuff has to change before movement while casting can even be considered.
#42 Jun 24 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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Mictam wrote:
My understanding, from what alot of people are saying, is that casting while moving = instant casts. This is definately not the case. You would initiate the cast, and be able to move during the casting animation, then stop to perform the cast.


No, what some of us are saying is that if something is an instant cast ability/spell, you should ideally be able to do it while moving. Anything with a cast time > 0 seconds is something that you should be required to stand still and/or face your target to do.

Quote:
As for the exploitable kiting/runaway-cast, if you didn't notice in FFXI almost all the mobs move at least 1.5x the speed of the character, meaning even if you were running away from them they would catch you, not to mention the times you would have to stop to face the mob for the cast to go off.


That's not true. Anyone who has spent any amount of time pulling for xp groups will tell you that only a handful of mobs move faster than player running speed (raptors come to mind). (And pullers get to know what family of mobs those are and loathe pulling them.) Where it became an issue was through a combination of latency and the obscene melee attack range on many mobs that made it so that if you didn't pull from far enough away or getting moving right after the initial aggro, the mob was close enough to you that they'd be smacking you the whole run back. That wasn't a case of you running and the mob catching up; it was a case of the mob getting close enough to chew on your **** before you got moving.

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This really just evens the playing field for mages that would like to solo. Melee don't even have to move because they generally take less damage and dont have to worry about interruptions. Mages would still take damage, they would just get hit less because the mob would have to catch up to them (And it would catch up to them because it moves faster than them). This leads me to my next point, Interruptions.


Snares and roots are a better solution than constantly kiting. There are all kinds of options in the FF universe to give squishy characters roots and snares that fit with the lore and allow them to stay (mostly) out of harm's way
#43 Jun 24 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
In FFXI there is plenty of reason to need to move and not have your cast interupted, but we have got so used to not being able to we just make do without it. Ever tried to heal or buff someone who just moved out of range, ever had to snk/invis a whole party on your own and it keeps wearing really fast, small things like this annoy me and I would like that fixed for similar situations in FFXIV. I see a trend that in this and other threads, many people still playing FFXI seem incredibly adverse to anything that is not like the FFXI way of doing things.
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#44 Jun 24 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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triplealphareaction wrote:
In FFXI there is plenty of reason to need to move and not have your cast interupted, but we have got so used to not being able to we just make do without it. Ever tried to heal or buff someone who just moved out of range, ever had to snk/invis a whole party on your own and it keeps wearing really fast, small things like this annoy me and I would like that fixed for similar situations in FFXIV. I see a trend that in this and other threads, many people still playing FFXI seem incredibly adverse to anything that is not like the FFXI way of doing things.


People who need heals but run out of healing range have no one to blame but themselves. An exception to this might be a kite fight, but even in that case either the person kiting didn't run an adequately predictable path or the person trying to heal didn't properly anticipate where they needed to be standing to get the cast off before range became an issue. Same with buffs...if people stay in range, it's not an issue. Ideally, out of combat buffs should be instant cast anyways...there's no point in putting a cast timer on something you're throwing on while the group is getting ready to fight.

As for the sneak/invis thing...that whole concept needs to be scrapped. It won't be necessary in content tuned for solo play, and the idea would be that group content would involve clearing everything in your path anyway. The whole sneak/invis thing was one of the worst aspects of FFXI. It was grossly (grossly) unreasonable to expect casters to keep an entire party/alliance adequately stealthed and it was pointlessly expensive to carry around consumables to achieve the same result. It was a necessary mechanic in a game where any at-level mob could demolish virtually any solo player so that you could get to your groups if you were coming in as a replacement or just wanted to get to your camp without having to spend an hour clearing your way to it. It's an antiquated requirement that can be done away with, and I'll be sorely disappointed if SE retains it in FFXIV.
#45 Jun 24 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Eventually the tank and/or melee are going to have to stop and fight...that's when the buffers can step in and do their thing. Either the buffs are going to be of long enough duration that they won't need to be refreshed on the move, or they're going to be of such a short duration that refreshing them on the move would be a waste of resources in a lot of cases.

I don't know how deep I should get into this discussion since it's all hypothetical and it's just as likely that the game will favor a grounded battle system. But what the ****.

I think it's a pretty general rule that mages have more important things to do during fights than buffs. That stuff usually gets relegated to downtime, for good reason. But it's not just buffs. There's always healing to do between battles, and if your team is running around to the next fight it really kills the efficiency and the excitement to have to stand still for that.

That's really what this is about. It's not so much a practical issue (though it is to a certain extent) as an issue of upping the enjoyment for players. It's more fun to run around while you're casting than it is to be bound to one spot.
#46 Jun 24 2009 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I never played a mage job, and in fact the whole "you can't move while casting" rule was the whole reason I got my O. Kotes (blu got there first but interrupted his own cast, I run in and chi blast claim it, very awesome moment for me). So I'm on the fence about this.
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#47 Jun 24 2009 at 7:23 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir, everything you said is all good.. but it either assumes we're going to have instant casts or ignores my second notion. Most of your points don't apply if you consider the second implementation. The part I edited in, combined with maybe being reduced to half speed while casting sounds perfectly reasonable and I can't see any of arguments made so far actually applying to it.

Also, stop thinking the game is going to be exactly like WoW. It's not going to be "tuned for solo play, and the idea would be that group content would involve clearing everything in your path anyway." Your recollection of why invisible was needed and how it works is wrong as well. Especially in the notion that it was expensive to carry around consumables. Any at-level mob could also not destroy virtually any solo person. I'm sorry to say but it seems like you don't know anything about ffxi's mechanics. :/
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#48 Jun 24 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
AureliusSir, everything you said is all good.. but it either assumes we're going to have instant casts or ignores my second notion. Most of your points don't apply if you consider the second implementation. The part I edited in, combined with maybe being reduced to half speed while casting sounds perfectly reasonable and I can't see any of arguments made so far actually applying to it.


I haven't seen a rational argument as to why it would be worthwhile to apply it.

Quote:
Also, stop thinking the game is going to be exactly like WoW.


If you want to start another flame war, be another dumbass that assumes that I think the game is going to be exactly like WoW. That's a baseless, inflammatory inference and you'd do well to cross it off your list of potential arguments.

Quote:
It's not going to be "tuned for solo play, and the idea would be that group content would involve clearing everything in your path anyway."


Ya know what? This arguing stuff that the devs have already said is getting old. There will be a lot more content tuned for solo play...you can count on that. In that sense, you're not having to avoid mobs barely a level or two above you because there's a very real chance that they're going to kill you. Unless SE has nerfed the overloving sh*t out of every EM+ mob in FFXI since I stopped playing, there are a great many classes that can't manage one T mob beyond level 20 without an NPC fellow, much less several mobs. That's the whole point. Sneak/invis were tools players used to get form point A to point B without getting a swarm of aggro in the process.

Bloody ****.

You haven't addressed why, if you have access to Fire IV, it would be any sort of benefit to you to be able to cast rank 1 Fire while moving with a movement penalty. You're not going to be using it while solo. You're not going to be using it in groups. It's as though your general argument of casting while moving was nuked with the mage kiting example and now it's backtracked to maintain the concept in such a watered down form as to make it functionally useless.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 8:49pm by AureliusSir
#49 Jun 24 2009 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ya know what? This arguing stuff that the devs have already said is getting old. There will be a lot more content tuned for solo play...you can count on that.


"Tuned for solo play" and having more "content for casual play" are completely different things. Tuned for solo play means that you aren't going to be expected to party up for most things in the game, and that you'll be able to solo almost everything. That is not what it's going to be like, and that is why I said stop thinking it's going to be like WoW, because the way your presenting this makes it look like you do.

Quote:
In that sense, you're not having to avoid mobs barely a level or two above you because there's a very real chance that they're going to kill you. Unless SE has nerfed the overloving sh*t out of every EM+ mob in FFXI since I stopped playing, there are a great many classes that can't manage one T mob beyond level 20 without an NPC fellow, much less several mobs.


Like I said.. you don't know much about ffxi's mechanics apparently. FFXI has done nothing to nerf mobs, and people don't have to avoid EM-T mobs because it'll be certain death. I can kill EM mobs with 0 effort, and T-VT mobs with a little bit of effort. I can even kill IT mobs if I want to. Many jobs can actually solo on EM-T all the way into the 30s without much trouble. They can probably go further but I can't really say for sure.

Quote:
That's the whole point. Sneak/invis were tools players used to get form point A to point B without getting a swarm of aggro in the process.


And? It seems like a perfectly good thing. I don't want the game to be like WoW where I can just run through a bunch of EM-VT mobs and not have to worry because after I just go 50 yards they stop following me and run back. And ****, some parts of WoW are just the same, I sometimes had to use stealth to get from point A to point B without getting aggro in the process.

Quote:
You haven't addressed why, if you have access to Fire IV, it would be any sort of benefit to you to be able to cast rank 1 Fire while moving with a movement penalty. You're not going to be using it while solo. You're not going to be using it in groups. It's as though your general argument of casting while moving was nuked with the mage kiting example and now it's backtracked to maintain the concept in such a watered down form as to make it functionally useless.


I've backtracked nothing. There are plenty of reasons to use lower level spells. Farming for example you don't use your most powerful spells. If you're curing you don't want to always use the highest level cure. If you buffing others with lower level spells then it's nice. Overall, it's convenient. In ffxi and wow if you accidentally moved without realizing it because you didn't wait long enough between when you stopped pressing the movement keys and when you started casting you will get interrupted no matter what. Interrupted because you moved half a millimeter? Don't you think that's something that would be beneficial to get rid of? I'm not asking for the ability to cast high level spells while moving around like a chicken.

Nothing changed with the mage kiting example, because you can't kite when your moving at half speed or if you move too far from the initial casting position. I already addressed this. I can't honestly see how you think being able to move from your starting position a little while casting say a lower tier frostbolt or fire III is functionally useless.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 12:47am by Deadgye
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#50 Jun 24 2009 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
Ya know what? This arguing stuff that the devs have already said is getting old. There will be a lot more content tuned for solo play...you can count on that.


"Tuned for solo play" and having more "content for casual play" are completely different things. Tuned for solo play means that you aren't going to be expected to party up for most things in the game, and that you'll be able to solo almost everything. That is not what it's going to be like, and that is why I said stop thinking it's going to be like WoW, because the way your presenting this makes it look like you do.


And I'm telling you to not make that assumption. Flat out. It's a stupid assumption.

You'd have to be maybe not quite so bright to have read the press releases and subsequent interviews to not believe that group content won't be segregated from solo content in some way. There was no segregation in FFXI, thus the need for stealth consumables and/or a stressed out caster trying to keep their party moving without getting aggro and wasting a buttload of time.

Quote:
Like I said.. you don't know much about ffxi's mechanics apparently. FFXI has done nothing to nerf mobs, and people don't have to avoid EM-T mobs because it'll be certain death. I can kill EM mobs with 0 effort, and T-VT mobs with a little bit of effort. I can even kill IT mobs if I want to. Many jobs can actually solo on EM-T all the way into the 30s without much trouble. They can probably go further but I can't really say for sure.


I know about FFXI's mechanics. I played from NA release until midway through ToAU. Don't be insulting. This didn't have to get personal. Very few classes are going to arrive in a zone and clear from one end to another on EM->VT mobs and arrive at their party in short order. Unless you're in a solo friendly job and/or have a solo friendly subjob, you're not going to be blasting through one EM mob after another. They're going to wear you down...quickly...and you're pooched. If that weren't the case, sneak/invis wouldn't be the standard for moving through hostile zones.
Quote:

Quote:
That's the whole point. Sneak/invis were tools players used to get form point A to point B without getting a swarm of aggro in the process.


And? It seems like a perfectly good thing. I don't want the game to be like WoW where I can just run through a bunch of EM-VT mobs and not have to worry because after I just go 50 yards they stop following me and run back. And ****, some parts of WoW are just the same, I sometimes had to use stealth to get from point A to point B without getting aggro in the process.


It's a waste of time to have your caster sneak/invis an entire group. It's a waste of time farming to pay for stealth consumables. It's just another part of a time sink that in this case only existed to accommodate travel through zones containing at-level mobs (or higher) that were tuned to be killed in groups.

Quote:
I've backtracked nothing. There are plenty of reasons to use lower level spells. Farming for example you don't use your most powerful spells. If you're curing you don't want to always use the highest level cure. If you buffing others with lower level spells then it's nice. Overall, it's convenient. In ffxi and wow if you accidentally moved without realizing it because you didn't wait long enough between when you stopped pressing the movement keys and when you started casting you will get interrupted no matter what. Interrupted because you moved half a millimeter? Don't you think that's something that would be beneficial to get rid of? I'm not asking for the ability to cast high level spells while moving around like a chicken.


You're reaching. You're appending so many conditions to the option to move while casting that it would be...fundamentally useless.

Quote:
Nothing changed with the mage kiting example, because you can't kite when your moving at half speed or if you move too far from the initial casting position. I already addressed this. I can't honestly see how you think being able to move from your starting position a little while casting say a lower tier frostbolt or fire III is functionally useless.


What's the point? What's the point of downranking so much for the sole benefit of the equivalent to a snared movement speed? There would be no point. "I could cast Fire IV but I think it would be fun to walk like a twit while casting so I'm just going to use Fire I lololololol" "My tank is going to die if they don't get at least a Cure III in short order but I have to move or I'm going to get gibbed myself...I know!! Instead of just running to a safe spot and queuing up a heal that will make a difference, I'll slow my speed to a crawl and bust off with a Cure I!! HUZZAH!!!!!"

There are no shortage of things that could be included in an MMO that are "neat", but at some point the devs have to say, "Is it worth it?"

And you haven't given a functional example of why it would be. Wooo! Downranked spells to farm in lowbie zones because walking for 1.5 seconds is so much more **** fun than standing still for 1.5 seconds to accomplish the same thing that I'm going to be insulting and fight tooth and nail to defend the idea! WOOOO!!

Careful...this forum has seen enough pointless idiocy on account of butthurt people defending questionable ideas and/or their inability to read and comprehend what the devs have said about the game. You don't need to add to it. Knock it off with the personal nonsense.


Edited, Jun 24th 2009 10:35pm by AureliusSir
#51 Jun 24 2009 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
And you haven't given a functional example of why it would be.


Listen, if you're not going to actually read what I write don't bother replying. I have posted multiple times what functional examples could come out of this, but you like to just continue saying "lol why would I want to cast fire 1 when it doesn't do ****?" Just because you refuse to accept, or just plain skip over, what I've posted as functional examples doesn't mean they aren't useful. Most of your arguments against the idea I've posted either a. don't even apply or b. are, to be frank, stupid. Why the **** should a replacement party member be able to quickly kill every EM-T monster in between them and their party quickly so he can reach them swiftly?

I have not attempted to personally insult you in any way, I've only stated what I thought were logical conclusions from the way that you were presenting your argument. When you stated that the game is going to be tuned for solo play, ie WoW, when the devs have only said that it's going to be more casual I made the statement that the game isn't going to be like WoW. When you stated that EM monsters kick everyone's *** and that you can't solo past 20 I stated that you probably don't know enough about the game, because it's flat-out false.

If you want to continue to 'debate' this subject any further, I recommend you actually reread my posts so that your arguments and objects actually are relevant to the idea purposed.
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