Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Square Enix Sued for FFXI will it affect FFXIVFollow

#1 Jun 25 2009 at 3:02 AM Rating: Decent
**
354 posts
Here's the story from this blog.

Quote:
A federal class action suit is in progress against Square Enix. Allegedly deceiving 100,000 customers by not being upfront about fees and penalties, Square Enix will now enter court.

Plaintiff, Esther Leong of San Francisco, stated that Square Enix lied about monthly fees for Final Fantasy XI. The case claims that Square Enix concealed its montly fees, penalties for late fees, interest, and restrictions, and several other payment fees that weren’t detailed during the signing up phase.

The class action suit is seeking damages of more than $5 million, ranging from unfair business practices to false advertising..


Here's the PDF court filing just in case...

I think that this is ridiculous coming from the western market. This filing was stamped for July 18th 2009...

I've played FFXI since march 23, 2004 after all the updates to the end of 2005. I always knew there was a fee and was glad to pay it. It was totally worth it. Same goes to WoW. All though most MMO's need to charge monthly in order to continue maintenance and updates, man some people just love to sue.

So what do you guys think. With FFXIV coming along the way will it be effected by any new policies that may be required by square enix to prevent getting sued.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 7:05am by EliteDW
____________________________
Back Baby!
Dragonwarrior - Phoenix
Blacksmithing level 100+3
First NA maxed blacksmithing in Phoenix
First to create Cursed Hauberk -1 in Phoenix

#2 Jun 25 2009 at 3:03 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
Somebody didn't read the ToS correctly it seems.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#3 Jun 25 2009 at 3:05 AM Rating: Default
**
354 posts
SE is likely to win this anyways.
____________________________
Back Baby!
Dragonwarrior - Phoenix
Blacksmithing level 100+3
First NA maxed blacksmithing in Phoenix
First to create Cursed Hauberk -1 in Phoenix

#4 Jun 25 2009 at 3:09 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
630 posts
I dunno, I'm sure most people remember being double billed (wasn't catwho once triple billed? someone mentioned it on the FFXI boards years ago) and then there's the hassles of people trying to cancel their accounts and trial accounts, whether by playonline or their own ineptitude failing at it or whatever.

I know there's times when I've been double billed or billed irregularly, it contributed a lot to my quitting of FFXI for good. Here's to hoping these lessons and more do not go unheeded by SE in the future.
____________________________
                 \ │ /
                 / ̄\   / ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄
               ─( ゚ ∀ ゚ )< I'M THE **** SUN!
                 \_/   \_________
                / │ \
#5 Jun 25 2009 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
**
354 posts
i remember I got double billed, and had that refunded. I mean I think that because FFXI was on a console rather than only on PC. Many people probably didn't know you actually have to pay monthly for some MMORPG's. It baffled my cousin, but thats how it is... and i'd pay a ton for ffxiv.
____________________________
Back Baby!
Dragonwarrior - Phoenix
Blacksmithing level 100+3
First NA maxed blacksmithing in Phoenix
First to create Cursed Hauberk -1 in Phoenix

#6 Jun 25 2009 at 3:23 AM Rating: Excellent
**
444 posts
I remember SE saying that FF14 will use a slightly different billing system.
Like billing exactly every 30 days regardless of current date, instead of waiting the end of the month.
I guess this could help and avoid confusion about the billing system.
#7 Jun 25 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
I've never sued a mcdonald's when they get my order wrong.

Some people are idiots. Everything is clearly stated. The fee is due at the beginning of every month, without fail. There is nothing to misunderstand.

This reminds me of the case where a woman sued Quaker Oats because the Crunchberries in her Captain Crunch were, in fact, not actual berries.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 4:41am by Kirbster
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#8 Jun 25 2009 at 3:53 AM Rating: Default
We can just ignore this one.
____________________________
Can you see what it is yet?
#9 Jun 25 2009 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
777 posts
Kirbster wrote:
I've never sued a mcdonald's when they get my order wrong.

And yet. Rarely a day goes by where someone doesn't call 911 over a incorrect order at McDonalds.

. . . *sigh*
#10 Jun 25 2009 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,084 posts
Karelyn wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
I've never sued a mcdonald's when they get my order wrong.

And yet. Rarely a day goes by where someone doesn't call 911 over a incorrect order at McDonalds.

. . . *sigh*


That's depressing.

You've depressed me.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#11 Jun 25 2009 at 4:50 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,372 posts
Quote:
The case claims that Square Enix concealed its montly fees, penalties for late fees, interest, and restrictions, and several other payment fees that weren’t detailed during the signing up phase.


Wut? Monthly fees for MMOs is just common sense nowadays(Understandable mistake 10 years ago when they weren't as prevalent). The only 'penalty' for late fees is the inability to play, which again should be common sense. Interest? Restrictions? Other payment fees? (Where?)

Won't even make it to the courtroom.
#12 Jun 25 2009 at 5:00 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
777 posts
Kirbster wrote:
That's depressing.

You've depressed me.

Welcome to my world.

Embrace the cynical disillusion.
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#13 Jun 25 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
**
336 posts
Lets let it slip that everyone that played FFXI is actually part of a secret satanic suicide cult like everyone that played Everquest and DnD
#14 Jun 25 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
777 posts
Westyle wrote:
a secret satanic suicide cult

Hey. Secret? Suicide? Cult?

I deny those allegations!
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#15 Jun 25 2009 at 7:42 AM Rating: Decent
*
180 posts
EliteDW wrote:
[quote]A federal class action suit is in progress against Square Enix. Allegedly deceiving 100,000 customers by not being upfront about fees and penalties, Square Enix will now enter court.

Plaintiff, Esther Leong of San Francisco, stated that Square Enix lied about monthly fees for Final Fantasy XI. The case claims that Square Enix concealed its montly fees, penalties for late fees, interest, and restrictions, and several other payment fees that weren’t detailed during the signing up phase.

The class action suit is seeking damages of more than $5 million, ranging from unfair business practices to false advertising..


Wow... agree with other people in this thread... someone didn't read the ToS, which is really sad. This is almost as bad as that person who spilled McD's coffee on them, then sued because it was hot and burned them... Yeah, well coffees hot. FFXI is Pay to Play. There ya go.

To respond to your question: No, I do not think that this will affect FFXIV in any way. Paying for an MMO is normal these days, and everyone knows FF11 is pay to play (now... silly people) and SE has already said (and its on their site as TBA) there will be a monthy fee, we just don't know what yet. If someone complains about being charged, then they need to learn to read and shouldn't be playing MMO's. >.>

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 11:45am by YfandesofBismarck
____________________________
Yfandes of Bismarck
Almandine LS
DNC75(4/12/09)| BRD73 | DRG63 | RDM53 |
#16 Jun 25 2009 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
**
555 posts
Answer to OP:

LoL! No.
____________________________
Retired 75PLD
Hades Server
Obsidian Linkshell

WoW Fails.


#17 Jun 25 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
**
354 posts
Quote:
Wow... agree with other people in this thread... someone didn't read the ToS, which is really sad. This is almost as bad as that person who spilled McD's coffee on them, then sued because it was hot and burned them... Yeah, well coffees hot. FFXI is Pay to Play. There ya go.

To respond to your question: No, I do not think that this will affect FFXIV in any way. Paying for an MMO is normal these days, and everyone knows FF11 is pay to play (now... silly people) and SE has already said (and its on their site as TBA) there will be a monthy fee, we just don't know what yet. If someone complains about being charged, then they need to learn to read and shouldn't be playing MMO's. >.>


I originally found this article on N4G.com a social news posting site for games much like digg.com is. The comments on this site seemed to have disturbed me alot.

heres a comment from that topic...
Quote:
Makes you think twice about Final Fantasy XIV now doesn't it? Square should focus on making JRPGs and forget about the MMO market.


now the article is posting this as "Square Enix Sued for Deceiving Customers ".

This is something I highly disagree with. Now a majority of American gamers would find paying monthly for games ridiculous, let alone paying for add-on and mods... etc. Console gamers in fact. Prior to FFXI and the PS2 hard drives, there was no way for gamers to get updates to keep this game alive.

Updates and maintenance are what we pay SE for and thus hard drives are needed. Now that more consoles have this ability MMO's are able to be saved. Alot of people don't get this concept. Alot of them want FFXIV for free. Although this is where a platinum game like FFXI and guild wars differs. When I see guild wars I see how bad an MMO experience can be with out updates on the base game and nothing but countless expansions coming out.

American gamers need to come to understand that in order to have a great MMO experience like FFXI, WoW etc. A pay to play must be in place, until we can find developers to work for free... but that's probably not going to happen. I bet the law suit mostly consists mostly of console players such as the 360, since this suit is so recent.

I stand by SE in this case.

My worry is that NA gamers may be pushed aside for their views.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 12:17pm by EliteDW
____________________________
Back Baby!
Dragonwarrior - Phoenix
Blacksmithing level 100+3
First NA maxed blacksmithing in Phoenix
First to create Cursed Hauberk -1 in Phoenix

#18 Jun 25 2009 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,372 posts
YfandesofBismarck wrote:
EliteDW wrote:
[quote]A federal class action suit is in progress against Square Enix. Allegedly deceiving 100,000 customers by not being upfront about fees and penalties, Square Enix will now enter court.

Plaintiff, Esther Leong of San Francisco, stated that Square Enix lied about monthly fees for Final Fantasy XI. The case claims that Square Enix concealed its montly fees, penalties for late fees, interest, and restrictions, and several other payment fees that weren’t detailed during the signing up phase.

The class action suit is seeking damages of more than $5 million, ranging from unfair business practices to false advertising..


Wow... agree with other people in this thread... someone didn't read the ToS, which is really sad. This is almost as bad as that person who spilled McD's coffee on them, then sued because it was hot and burned them... Yeah, well coffees hot. FFXI is Pay to Play. There ya go.[/i]


The person who sued McDonalds actually won their case. >_> So not the best example lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_legal_cases#The_McDonald.27s_coffee_case_.28US.29
#19 Jun 25 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
45 posts
Quote:
Updates and maintenance are what we pay SE for and thus hard drives are needed. Now that more consoles have this ability MMO's are able to be saved. Alot of people don't get this concept. Alot of them want FFXIV for free. Although this is where a platinum game like FFXI and guild wars differs. When I see guild wars I see how bad an MMO experience can be with out updates on the base game and nothing but countless expansions coming out.


Yeah most people forget that there are in fact people working on MMOs consistantly since their release, those people need to be paid. Fair enough SE is a **** rich company already, but why make the game if they can't make a profit too. Some people will sue over anything these days, its pathetic. I've never found SE have 'decieved' me with their monthly payments on FFXI. Maybe thats just me.

Hope Squeenix wins this case.
#20 Jun 25 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,159 posts
I say they got what was coming for them. I was once triple billed and when I called them to try and get it fixed they just said whatever I wanted to hear to get me off the phone and did nothing about it. I promptly quit the game after that and never looked back. Any company that treats its customers like that needs to be taught a lesson. Whether or not the lawsuit wins I don't really care just as long as they get the message that they can't ***** us over without some sort of consequence.
#21 Jun 25 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
**
354 posts
Quote:
I say they got what was coming for them. I was once triple billed and when I called them to try and get it fixed they just said whatever I wanted to hear to get me off the phone and did nothing about it. I promptly quit the game after that and never looked back. Any company that treats its customers like that needs to be taught a lesson. Whether or not the lawsuit wins I don't really care just as long as they get the message that they can't ***** us over without some sort of consequence.


I agree if it was about consumer service then SE totally needs to change, but considering suing over not knowing that the game cost money monthly is totally different.
____________________________
Back Baby!
Dragonwarrior - Phoenix
Blacksmithing level 100+3
First NA maxed blacksmithing in Phoenix
First to create Cursed Hauberk -1 in Phoenix

#22 Jun 25 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
Kirbster wrote:
I've never sued a mcdonald's when they get my order wrong.


I'm not sure what that has to do with the suit. Maybe a more appropriate analogy would be if McDonald's got your order right, but after the fact, billed your credit card for service fees above and beyond what were listed on the menu.

Quote:
Some people are idiots. Everything is clearly stated. The fee is due at the beginning of every month, without fail. There is nothing to misunderstand.


Based on the wording of the article, it doesn't sound like the suit is only about being charged monthly. It sounds like it's more about over billing and tacking on additional undocumented fees (late fees? interest?).



Edited, Jun 25th 2009 1:35pm by KarlHungis
#23 Jun 25 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
349 posts
Quote:
This is something I highly disagree with. Now a majority of American gamers would find paying monthly for games ridiculous, let alone paying for add-on and mods... etc. Console gamers in fact. Prior to FFXI and the PS2 hard drives, there was no way for gamers to get updates to keep this game alive.

Updates and maintenance are what we pay SE for and thus hard drives are needed. Now that more consoles have this ability MMO's are able to be saved. Alot of people don't get this concept. Alot of them want FFXIV for free. Although this is where a platinum game like FFXI and guild wars differs. When I see guild wars I see how bad an MMO experience can be with out updates on the base game and nothing but countless expansions coming out.

American gamers need to come to understand that in order to have a great MMO experience like FFXI, WoW etc. A pay to play must be in place, until we can find developers to work for free... but that's probably not going to happen. I bet the law suit mostly consists mostly of console players such as the 360, since this suit is so recent.

I stand by SE in this case.

My worry is that NA gamers may be pushed aside for their views.
Dude.... wtf? This is pure speculation. A mjaoirty of NA gamers? Im American I pay my monthly fees for my mmos as do all my friends and my gf. We all laugh at people who demands mmos be free (many who do it are doing it in broken english and are clearly not native English speakers) There's absolutly no evidence to support this wild theory that its just NA gamers who dont want to pay monthlies, theres people from allover the world who don't want to pay monthlies not just NA. Theres hundreds of thousands if not millions of mmo gamers here playing games. Log into one of the 17 NA wow servers each with 20,000 Americans and Canadians paying their monthly fee and tell them this. Its absolute unfounded bias. This guy is one idiot and the first time anyone in america has EVER sued over a monthly fee. Check your bias and prejudices at the door please.

____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#24 Jun 25 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,159 posts
mezlabor wrote:
Dude.... wtf? This is pure speculation. A mjaoirty of NA gamers? Im American I pay my monthly fees for my mmos as do all my friends and my gf. We all laugh at people who demands mmos be free (many who do it are doing it in broken english and are clearly not native English speakers) There's absolutly no evidence to support this wild theory that its just NA gamers who dont want to pay monthlies, theres people from allover the world who don't want to pay monthlies not just NA. Theres hundreds of thousands if not millions of mmo gamers here playing games. Log into one of the 17 NA wow servers each with 20,000 Americans and Canadians paying their monthly fee and tell them this. Its absolute unfounded bias. This guy is one idiot and the first time anyone in america has EVER sued over a monthly fee. Check your bias and prejudices at the door please.



While, I agree with you, this isn't necessarily just one guy. It's a class action lawsuit meaning a number of people can join and get a share of the money. It doesn't specifically say if there are any others (though it mentions the number 100,000) so you might be right...but just for now. I'm sure others will join in at some point.
#25 Jun 25 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
349 posts
Quote:
While, I agree with you, this isn't necessarily just one guy. It's a class action lawsuit meaning a number of people can join and get a share of the money. It doesn't specifically say if there are any others (though it mentions the number 100,000) so you might be right...but just for now. I'm sure others will join in at some point.
Oh Im sure they will. opportunistic leeches will crawl out of the woodwork to jump on any bandwagon they think will make them some money. As far as the lawsuit. If SE has been shady in their charging practices they should be sued. But I've never heard of an mmo charging late fees and interest. This smells of ******** to me. Your late penalty is very simple /account canceled. If he's suing over that he should go die in a fire.
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#26 Jun 25 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
****
5,684 posts
Quote:
The class action suit is seeking damages of more than $5 million


that's some serious overbilling.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#27 Jun 25 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
**
354 posts
Quote:
Dude.... wtf? This is pure speculation. A mjaoirty of NA gamers? Im American I pay my monthly fees for my mmos as do all my friends and my gf. We all laugh at people who demands mmos be free (many who do it are doing it in broken english and are clearly not native English speakers) There's absolutly no evidence to support this wild theory that its just NA gamers who dont want to pay monthlies, theres people from allover the world who don't want to pay monthlies not just NA. Theres hundreds of thousands if not millions of mmo gamers here playing games. Log into one of the 17 NA wow servers each with 20,000 Americans and Canadians paying their monthly fee and tell them this. Its absolute unfounded bias. This guy is one idiot and the first time anyone in america has EVER sued over a monthly fee. Check your bias and prejudices at the door please.


relax, bro. What I mean is from personal experience from only console gamers and PC gamers. FFXI is one of the only MMORPG's we have on crossplatform. The case is from LA, United States, and thus I have stated NA gamers. Not from any other country or else I would have stated their country. I do apologize for saying majority. Although considering how many NA gamers there are... only a hand full of them pay monthly for gaming, ie economic issues, or budget. Most kids can't get their parents to pay $12 monthly for a game. Most kids probably can afford to pay $12 monthly for months upon months to years. Some adults can't afford to pay their bills as well as their monthly gaming payment.

I expect this same issue to occur all over the world, but regard this case I am stating it for the US alone. Whilst staying on topic. If I could afford to leave my FFXI/WoW character idle for months while paying then I would but I'll still say that their prices are justified without any contest from me. So sir, even though WoW has 12 million registered users, it is only a hand full over the majority of users out there. If FFXI was available to many others than maybe we'll have more people who understand monthly payments, but alot don't understand. My friends who started FFXI had that mindset of not paying monthly, but their understanding changed after trying the game for so long.
____________________________
Back Baby!
Dragonwarrior - Phoenix
Blacksmithing level 100+3
First NA maxed blacksmithing in Phoenix
First to create Cursed Hauberk -1 in Phoenix

#28 Jun 25 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,080 posts
Quote:
some people just love to sue


^ this.
Every company gets its share of predatory lawsuits and this one happens to target SE.
The TOS clearly states its a monthly fee game. And.. what late fees? What interest?
This won't get very far imo.
____________________________
A reader lives a thousand lives, the man who never reads lives only one. - George R.R. Martin
#29 Jun 25 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
39 posts
This will not affect FFXIV in the slightest.
____________________________
FFXI (Retired)
BRD75 RDM75 BLU75
#30 Jun 25 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Default
**
555 posts
I can almost guarantee that if SE went to Court and their Lawyers said:

"We'd like to offer the Plaintiff the opportunity to play FFXIV: Online without having to pay a monthly bill, ever"

They'd say: W00t! Ok!

lol
____________________________
Retired 75PLD
Hades Server
Obsidian Linkshell

WoW Fails.


#31 Jun 25 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Default
Let me predict the verdict 2 yrs in advance. SE wins. Lady calls it unfair and continues to play anyway.
____________________________
85 DK Profile

85 Tauren Shammy
#32 Jun 25 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
I know I'll get rated down for saying this, but I'll say it anyway.

This thread is, for the most part, a great example or why jury trials are stupid. A whole bunch of people who aren't really sure what the suit is even about are absolutely convinced that it's frivolous, inspired by greed, etc.

You understand that if a corporation does something wrong, they can't go to jail, right? You can't hand a multi million dollar corporation a 50 dollar speeding ticket and say "do it twice more, and you lose your driving privileges!"

The only way you make an irresponsible corporation behave is by hitting them in the bottom line. When it's cheaper to do the right thing than to get sued or fined, then well run businesses will magically start to do the right thing. Corporations only understand the bottom line, and they only engage in behavior that can be used to add to it. If frivolous lawsuits are required to make S-E act like a 20th century business, then so be it.



#33 Jun 25 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
Quote:
Based on the wording of the article, it doesn't sound like the suit is only about being charged monthly. It sounds like it's more about over billing and tacking on additional undocumented fees (late fees? interest?)


When you point out anyone who got interest or late fees, or any kind of undocumented fee, perhaps I will agree with you. I got overbilled once in my 5 years of playing, it was refunded in like a day. Not really grounds for legal action.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#34 Jun 25 2009 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
**
354 posts
I want to end this by saying. Its a class action suit. If 100,000 people signed up for it.. then well each person is only going to get $50 other than the lawyers and court expenses. So in the end its not going to be a ton of money for each person. Other than that its mostly an issue of hearing this news after FFXIV has been announced so much earlier. Of course this will enrage most devoted fans such as myself. SE is going to go through many issues along the way, but this topic has allowed me to further read and understand both sides.

So even though this case may just fly over. I want it to only affect SE is a positive way. I just want SE to understand the need for better costumer service, and I want them to price the monthly payment reasonably to allow more gamers to enjoy what I have many years ago. The only thing I don't want this to show is any negativity towards the game itself, because it was such a great game. I still remember my time on it with my friends, and that's what really counts for me. So the more people get a chance to play... then the more people to come to love this game... or hate it. Its their choice.
____________________________
Back Baby!
Dragonwarrior - Phoenix
Blacksmithing level 100+3
First NA maxed blacksmithing in Phoenix
First to create Cursed Hauberk -1 in Phoenix

#35 Jun 25 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
*
228 posts
Looking through the pdf statement 10 caught my attention (last paragraph has a brief summary)

Quote:
10. The games at issue are a series of online games developed and published by Square Enix.

(Something to that effect hard to quote excat format from a pdf 2 tabs over)

The reson it caught my attention was it was written in PLURALS (sp?) and as far as I'm arway SE has only released two games FFXI (what we believe this to be about) and Tetra Master,

Granted FFXI has had several expansions but they are technically one game as opposed to a series.

Could this prehaps be in refrence to TM as opposed to 11? been 5 yrs since i had my box so i can't check how that marketed (i think it sounded like an add-on)


But still TM is a part of POL and therefore by extension subject to the POL ToS which i'm certain does mention that PoL is free to use however all content accesed via POL is charged, Also on creating my POL account (and helping a RL friend) not only are the charges highlighted on the box there is a mention of them near the start and then again before you finish creating a POL account, you then get another warning on EACH content ID you buy.

Plus 3-5days in advance of billing there are notices when you log into FFXI stating about the upcoming charges (and i'm sure TM has this to) and both games at the start of each month give you an electronical recepit message that will stay until the next billing cycle if you don't go through all the infomation on your charges for that month when you log in.

One other thing i noticed (unless i mis-read it) is that this has occured over the course of 5 yrs therefore excluding the 360 players from the sueing, this also elimantes the fact that they didn't relize there were recuring charges as it has happened for 5 years and also removes the Direct Download option (which as far as i know could store your card details when you DL it so you could make the mistake of not seeing the charge if you skim it over as opposed to 5yrs when you had to buy a disc then put it in the card details for payment which in itself raises a flag off why am i being asked this)



Bassically it mentions they sueing for TWO OR MORE games and there is plently of warning on the FFXI side and a fair bit on the TM side as well, it's excluding people who have been here less than 5yrs therefore no 360 or direct download, tommorow I'll look through the files again for quotes and any other points there may be something overlooked.
#36 Jun 25 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
253 posts
Fear not, I believe SE will lay the smack down on that clown.
____________________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
We are the BLU. Lower your shields and power down your weapons. You will be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile
#37 Jun 26 2009 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
Kirbster wrote:
Quote:
Based on the wording of the article, it doesn't sound like the suit is only about being charged monthly. It sounds like it's more about over billing and tacking on additional undocumented fees (late fees? interest?)


When you point out anyone who got interest or late fees, or any kind of undocumented fee, perhaps I will agree with you. I got overbilled once in my 5 years of playing, it was refunded in like a day. Not really grounds for legal action.


I'm not suing them, and neither are you. Just because you've only been over billed once, and had it resolved painlessly, doesn't mean that no one has had it worse.

I'm not even going to say that the suit has grounds, because I have no idea. Neither do you. That's why there's a legal process. The lawyers for S-E will try to get the suit thrown out on any and all grounds that they can think of, and it's up to a judge to decide whether the suit even has enough merit to be heard in court.
#38 Jun 26 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
*
180 posts
valid wrote:
YfandesofBismarck wrote:
EliteDW wrote:
[quote]A federal class action suit is in progress against Square Enix. Allegedly deceiving 100,000 customers by not being upfront about fees and penalties, Square Enix will now enter court.

Plaintiff, Esther Leong of San Francisco, stated that Square Enix lied about monthly fees for Final Fantasy XI. The case claims that Square Enix concealed its montly fees, penalties for late fees, interest, and restrictions, and several other payment fees that weren’t detailed during the signing up phase.

The class action suit is seeking damages of more than $5 million, ranging from unfair business practices to false advertising..


Wow... agree with other people in this thread... someone didn't read the ToS, which is really sad. This is almost as bad as that person who spilled McD's coffee on them, then sued because it was hot and burned them... Yeah, well coffees hot. FFXI is Pay to Play. There ya go.[/i]


The person who sued McDonalds actually won their case. >_> So not the best example lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_legal_cases#The_McDonald.27s_coffee_case_.28US.29



LOL I know, thats what makes it really sad... they actually WON. Now we got people calling 911 cuz they are misssing a chicken mc nugget. >.<

Makes me depressed...

Regardless, I'll pay to play because I wanna try out FFXIV! =D

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 1:40pm by YfandesofBismarck
____________________________
Yfandes of Bismarck
Almandine LS
DNC75(4/12/09)| BRD73 | DRG63 | RDM53 |
#39 Jun 26 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
3,317 posts
Quote:
A federal class action suit is in progress against Square Enix. Allegedly deceiving 100,000 customers by not being upfront about fees and penalties, Square Enix will now enter court.

Plaintiff, Esther Leong of San Francisco, stated that Square Enix lied about monthly fees for Final Fantasy XI. The case claims that Square Enix concealed its monthly fees, penalties for late fees, interest, and restrictions, and several other payment fees that weren’t detailed during the signing up phase.

The class action suit is seeking damages of more than $5 million, ranging from unfair business practices to false advertising..


I'm more interested in the bolded part. I've never heard of any late fees or interest for ffxi. I wasn't aware FFXI even had any services that could entail late fees or interest.



Edited, Jun 26th 2009 3:20pm by Redyoshi
#40 Jun 26 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
*
230 posts
The guy probably rented FFXI from some mom and pop shop. And wore a helmet 24/7.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#41 Jun 26 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Mistress of Gardening
Avatar
*****
14,661 posts
Kharmageddon wrote:
The guy probably rented FFXI from some mom and pop shop. And wore a helmet 24/7.


Actually, it's a girl suing.
#42 Jun 27 2009 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
*
215 posts
SO many people are misinformed about the McDonalds Coffee case. That woman deserved EVERY right to sue McDonalds over it. quote wikipedia:

she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[9] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin as she sat in the puddle of hot liquid for over 90 seconds, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[10] Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[11] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. Two years of treatment followed.

Though that is not even the reason McDonalds really got sued. They got sued because they refused to pay for the 20,000 dollar medical costs, and only offered 800 dollars.

And since in the end McDonalds could have just paid the damages and never went through court, the courts will usually punish a company. Which is why he made 2million something in punitive damages, basically its the only way our current government system can actually keep companies in check when they do wrong doing to customers. The 2 million damages plus was calculated as two days of coffee revenue by McDonalds.

Anyways , theres no way this lawsuit will affect FFXIV. More than likely it was all in the Terms of Agreement, and the only thing this guy will argue , is that it should be more plainly stated. Which it probaly should have been but given the current trend of government , Square will win. Terms of agreements are written to be complicated for a reason: they don't want you to read them. I mean imagine if every website wrote its toa clearly: We have the right to do anything with any information you have here. Absolutely no privacy.
#43 Jun 27 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
17 posts
This just highlights the epidemic plaguing our society. Only 50 years ago, the greatest generation was on this Earth in their prime (WWII Generation). Do you think they would do crap like this? Take some responsibility and read beforehand, don't expect them to hand-hold you through everything. That said, I'm ashamed for the sue happy society we live in, one reason why Medical care costs are ever increasing, that and the rapid encroachment of government into everyday lives and the ever evolving "Nanny state". Sad, times...very sad.

'Don't tread on me.'

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:13pm by Perspicacity
#44 Jun 27 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
17 posts
zuogehaomeng wrote:
SO many people are misinformed about the McDonalds Coffee case. That woman deserved EVERY right to sue McDonalds over it. quote wikipedia:

she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[9] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin as she sat in the puddle of hot liquid for over 90 seconds, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[10] Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[11] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. Two years of treatment followed.

Though that is not even the reason McDonalds really got sued. They got sued because they refused to pay for the 20,000 dollar medical costs, and only offered 800 dollars.

And since in the end McDonalds could have just paid the damages and never went through court, the courts will usually punish a company. Which is why he made 2million something in punitive damages, basically its the only way our current government system can actually keep companies in check when they do wrong doing to customers. The 2 million damages plus was calculated as two days of coffee revenue by McDonalds.

Anyways , theres no way this lawsuit will affect FFXIV. More than likely it was all in the Terms of Agreement, and the only thing this guy will argue , is that it should be more plainly stated. Which it probaly should have been but given the current trend of government , Square will win. Terms of agreements are written to be complicated for a reason: they don't want you to read them. I mean imagine if every website wrote its toa clearly: We have the right to do anything with any information you have here. Absolutely no privacy.


Are you serious? So, you spill coffee on yourself, and it's McDonald's fault? Wait one sec, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Tell me exactly, what are we in today's society ever personally responsible for anymore? I'd really like to know. It's time to stop blaming and leaning on others for stupid decisions made in people's lives.

The whole situation was ludicrous and McD' should have never even paid the 800 dollars to begin with. Secondly, what moron sits in hot coffee for 90 seconds? Perhaps natural selection may need to weed this one out, eh?

Lastly, do you know what principles are? I'm sure you do. Why would they pay someone when they did no wrong? To just 'shut him up'? Sorry, no, you stand on principles and no one should pay anyone for nothing they did wrong! This is quite simple really.

Imagine if all the trial lawyers were out of work, just imagine how much cheaper medical costs would be, how much cheaper everyday products would be....Nope, but some greedy SOB who slips and falls on their own accord on the floor wants the easy way out of life and sues for millions...work for your own **** money!
#45 Jun 27 2009 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
777 posts
Perspicacity wrote:
Are you serious? So, you spill coffee on yourself, and it's McDonald's fault?

I seem to recall something with regards to the case was that the lid wasn't put on properly, so when she gripped the cup, the lid came off and it splattered on her (A fairly easy event to replicate with the cheap cups that McDonald's uses)

Not saying I agree with the case. Just pointing that out.
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#46 Jun 27 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Default
17 posts
Karelyn wrote:
Perspicacity wrote:
Are you serious? So, you spill coffee on yourself, and it's McDonald's fault?

I seem to recall something with regards to the case was that the lid wasn't put on properly, so when she gripped the cup, the lid came off and it splattered on her (A fairly easy event to replicate with the cheap cups that McDonald's uses)

Not saying I agree with the case. Just pointing that out.


I know the case well, it wasn't that. It was that the cup didn't have 'Warning: Hot', labeled on it.

Of course, coffee you just ordered, is going to be cold, or milkwarm.....and then once you spill it, you're going to sit in it for 90 seconds. We should never, ever reward stupidity.
#47 Jun 28 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,842 posts
I hope the case is just thrown out by a judge with a clue and the plantiff has to pay a fine for wasting the courts time.

If you can't tell I'm sick of this suing over peaty things mind set. Suing is suppose to be the last resort when a company royally, Royally, screws you over; like driving in your car at 60mph down the highway when the airbags deploy for no reason, causes a wreck, and the company doesn't pay for damages/medical bills.
____________________________
FFXIV Dyvid (Awaiting 2.0)
FFXI Dyvid ~ Pandemonium (Retired)
SWTOR Dy'vid Legacy - Canderous Ordo
#48 Jun 29 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
KarlHungis wrote:
I know I'll get rated down for saying this, but I'll say it anyway.

This thread is, for the most part, a great example or why jury trials are stupid. A whole bunch of people who aren't really sure what the suit is even about are absolutely convinced that it's frivolous, inspired by greed, etc.

You understand that if a corporation does something wrong, they can't go to jail, right? You can't hand a multi million dollar corporation a 50 dollar speeding ticket and say "do it twice more, and you lose your driving privileges!"

The only way you make an irresponsible corporation behave is by hitting them in the bottom line. When it's cheaper to do the right thing than to get sued or fined, then well run businesses will magically start to do the right thing. Corporations only understand the bottom line, and they only engage in behavior that can be used to add to it. If frivolous lawsuits are required to make S-E act like a 20th century business, then so be it.


Jury trials are not stupid. They are part of our legal system that assumes innocence until proven guilty, as opposed to the other way around, which people tend to forget it seems.

We may not at this time know the full extent of what this person is trying to claim, but that PDF gives us a decent enough idea. You could claim that those of us on this forum don't know what the suit is about at all except for one thing: This person is trying to include every one of us as Plaintiff, thus the "Class Action."

And, forget reading the ToS for the fees. Dig out your original box for the game. It's written on the back. I know because I remember reading that in the store when my husband first wanted to play the game, and I was against paying monthly for a video game after buying it in the store. (We've since realized that we spend less money per month because we play this instead of spending ridiculous amounts on movies/popcorn, etc except when there is something we specifically want to see in the theater or membership fees for a club or something.)

Sure, SE makes mistakes. Every business makes mistakes. I make mistakes. You make mistakes. People have been double/triple billed. SE fixes the mistake, and the person continues playing. I've twice had to update my credit card info after trying to log in and being told that I couldn't. I was never charged interest or double billed. I updated the payment info and was logged into my character within 10 minutes. That's not even an inconvenience when it was my mistake to begin with for not updating the info. My cell phone company and cable company (two other non-essential monthly bills I pay) are much less forgiving if I do this.

As for the thing about it being only licensed to us and "disguised" as a sale, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think then that Microsoft, Adobe, and many, many other companies need to be sued also. We only get a license to play or use a certain number of copies of the software, we don't own the software. It's like owning a copy of a book, but not the right to reprint that book and distribute it.

Will it affect FFXIV? Possibly. It's frivolous lawsuits like this that drive up costs in attorneys, etc. for a company. That can translate into higher fees, etc.

The only possible thing I can see that this person may be able to sue for is if there really is something being so well hidden from us that none of us knows it. If so, they need to disclose this info to the playerbase instead of allowing it to still be hidden. Instead, they've filed this lawsuit that repeats itself 2-3 times saying vague legal jargon with no specifics, unless I missed something.

KarlHungis wrote:
You understand that if a corporation does something wrong, they can't go to jail, right? . . . The only way you make an irresponsible corporation behave is by hitting them in the bottom line.


No, a corporation can't be put in jail, but CEO's and other employees can be. And, in my opinion, the focus of such lawsuits should always be restitution to those who were hurt by whatever was found to be illegal. Punishment of the corporation does serve the purpose of deterring others from doing the same in the future. However, it usually punishes the lower-paid employees, who were likely completely innocent in the matter, more so than those who are the actual guilty ones. A balance has to be found between attempting to punish the actual people who did wrong and restitution to the victims.

The problem is this: How has SE not been up front about its charges or other business practices? Like I said, unless they are really hiding something about this from all of us so well that only this one privileged person has miraculous knowledge of it, then this just amounts to someone whining that they shouldn't have to pay a monthly fee that is plainly stated on the box for the game, as well as in the FFXI software license agreement.
____________________________
FFXIV: Luthien Tinuviel, Elezen Female, Balmug (And will re-roll on a new server in August)
FFXI: Luthian, Elvaan Female, Bismarck (originally Luthien on Seraph):
85RDM | 80WAR | 76DRG
lolgaxe+1 wrote:
I've always been of the opinion that Warrior was the Swiss Army Knife of Vana'diel.
#49 Jun 29 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
EmoriaEmoria wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
I know I'll get rated down for saying this, but I'll say it anyway.

This thread is, for the most part, a great example or why jury trials are stupid. A whole bunch of people who aren't really sure what the suit is even about are absolutely convinced that it's frivolous, inspired by greed, etc.

You understand that if a corporation does something wrong, they can't go to jail, right? You can't hand a multi million dollar corporation a 50 dollar speeding ticket and say "do it twice more, and you lose your driving privileges!"

The only way you make an irresponsible corporation behave is by hitting them in the bottom line. When it's cheaper to do the right thing than to get sued or fined, then well run businesses will magically start to do the right thing. Corporations only understand the bottom line, and they only engage in behavior that can be used to add to it. If frivolous lawsuits are required to make S-E act like a 20th century business, then so be it.


Jury trials are not stupid. They are part of our legal system that assumes innocence until proven guilty, as opposed to the other way around, which people tend to forget it seems.

We may not at this time know the full extent of what this person is trying to claim, but that PDF gives us a decent enough idea. You could claim that those of us on this forum don't know what the suit is about at all except for one thing: This person is trying to include every one of us as Plaintiff, thus the "Class Action."

And, forget reading the ToS for the fees. Dig out your original box for the game. It's written on the back. I know because I remember reading that in the store when my husband first wanted to play the game, and I was against paying monthly for a video game after buying it in the store. (We've since realized that we spend less money per month because we play this instead of spending ridiculous amounts on movies/popcorn, etc except when there is something we specifically want to see in the theater or membership fees for a club or something.)

Sure, SE makes mistakes. Every business makes mistakes. I make mistakes. You make mistakes. People have been double/triple billed. SE fixes the mistake, and the person continues playing. I've twice had to update my credit card info after trying to log in and being told that I couldn't. I was never charged interest or double billed. I updated the payment info and was logged into my character within 10 minutes. That's not even an inconvenience when it was my mistake to begin with for not updating the info. My cell phone company and cable company (two other non-essential monthly bills I pay) are much less forgiving if I do this.

As for the thing about it being only licensed to us and "disguised" as a sale, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think then that Microsoft, Adobe, and many, many other companies need to be sued also. We only get a license to play or use a certain number of copies of the software, we don't own the software. It's like owning a copy of a book, but not the right to reprint that book and distribute it.

Will it affect FFXIV? Possibly. It's frivolous lawsuits like this that drive up costs in attorneys, etc. for a company. That can translate into higher fees, etc.

The only possible thing I can see that this person may be able to sue for is if there really is something being so well hidden from us that none of us knows it. If so, they need to disclose this info to the playerbase instead of allowing it to still be hidden. Instead, they've filed this lawsuit that repeats itself 2-3 times saying vague legal jargon with no specifics, unless I missed something.

KarlHungis wrote:
You understand that if a corporation does something wrong, they can't go to jail, right? . . . The only way you make an irresponsible corporation behave is by hitting them in the bottom line.


No, a corporation can't be put in jail, but CEO's and other employees can be. And, in my opinion, the focus of such lawsuits should always be restitution to those who were hurt by whatever was found to be illegal. Punishment of the corporation does serve the purpose of deterring others from doing the same in the future. However, it usually punishes the lower-paid employees, who were likely completely innocent in the matter, more so than those who are the actual guilty ones. A balance has to be found between attempting to punish the actual people who did wrong and restitution to the victims.

The problem is this: How has SE not been up front about its charges or other business practices? Like I said, unless they are really hiding something about this from all of us so well that only this one privileged person has miraculous knowledge of it, then this just amounts to someone whining that they shouldn't have to pay a monthly fee that is plainly stated on the box for the game, as well as in the FFXI software license agreement.


In the absolute worst case scenario they won't release it in US, and no one really cares in the end. You can play the EU version if that scenario happens.
#50 Jun 29 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
EmoriaEmoria wrote:

Jury trials are not stupid. They are part of our legal system that assumes innocence until proven guilty, as opposed to the other way around, which people tend to forget it seems.


Jury trials have nothing to do with the principle of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty." That same standard exists for a bench trial (a trial with a judge and no jury), AND that standard has nothing to do with civil cases, which more often come down to issues or liability than guilt or innocence.

What a Jury trial provides is the right to be heard before your peers. There is a lot of language in the law that talks about what a "reasonable" person would or should do. Jury trials theoretically allow you to plead your case in front of people who share a much more common set of values and experiences with you than a judge would, and are therefore able to make a better determination of what is "reasonable" or normal.

Jury trials for civil cases between private citizens and corporations turn this on its head, because corporations are legal entities, but they can't sit on a jury. McDonald's can't get a trial where Burger King, Jack in the Box and Wendy's are in the jury, but the plaintiff can certainly get a jury trial of people who are their peers, in some cases by seating people who are as ignorant or reckless as they are.

Quote:
We may not at this time know the full extent of what this person is trying to claim, but that PDF gives us a decent enough idea. You could claim that those of us on this forum don't know what the suit is about at all except for one thing: This person is trying to include every one of us as Plaintiff, thus the "Class Action."


They're only including you if you're in the class of people who experienced these issues (at least, theoretically-- they're obviously not going to present evidence on behalf of each person individually.)

Quote:
And, forget reading the ToS for the fees. Dig out your original box for the game. It's written on the back.


In my mind, the only way the plaintiff wins anything is if they can show that S-E was applying charges that went above and beyond the monthly fees-- routinely double billing people, applying charges to reactivate accounts, or whatever other shenanigans might be alleged (late fees and interest?)


Quote:

No, a corporation can't be put in jail, but CEO's and other employees can be.


There are a lot of behaviors which are not necessarily criminal, but still harmful or negligent, and there are a lot of victims who are simply not helped by the fact that some one is in jail. The entire point of civil court is to determine the correct outcome when neither side (or maybe both sides) are breaking the law.


Quote:

The problem is this: How has SE not been up front about its charges or other business practices? Like I said, unless they are really hiding something about this from all of us so well that only this one privileged person has miraculous knowledge of it, then this just amounts to someone whining that they shouldn't have to pay a monthly fee that is plainly stated on the box for the game, as well as in the FFXI software license agreement.


It's entirely possible that this entire suit is really just because some one thinks it's wrong to pay monthly fees, but if that's the case, I doubt it will result in anything, so no need to be concerned about it. Unless of course you get a jury which is too stupid to make a rational decision.
#51 Jun 29 2009 at 3:14 PM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
EmoriaEmoria wrote:

The problem is this: How has SE not been up front about its charges or other business practices? Like I said, unless they are really hiding something about this from all of us so well that only this one privileged person has miraculous knowledge of it, then this just amounts to someone whining that they shouldn't have to pay a monthly fee that is plainly stated on the box for the game, as well as in the FFXI software license agreement.


It's entirely possible that this entire suit is really just because some one thinks it's wrong to pay monthly fees, but if that's the case, I doubt it will result in anything, so no need to be concerned about it. Unless of course you get a jury which is too stupid to make a rational decision.


If that would happen do you think that rule would affect all online games in US that have a monthly fee?
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (20)