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Square Enix Sued for FFXI will it affect FFXIVFollow

#52 Jun 29 2009 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:


If that would happen do you think that rule would affect all online games in US that have a monthly fee?


It might affect the way that they need to label or distribute their product, but in terms of the content or revenue stream I can't imagine it would make any difference. Plus, S-E would have the right to appeal, so even a ridiculous outcome can be corrected.

#53 Jun 29 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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I like the theory of Jury trials. That said, I could not agree with you more about the way to bring about responsibility on corporations is to sue them. That is how our system is set up. We don't go look for their employees and shoot them. We sue them. The guy is right. We also stop giving them our business. Look at Ebay and how it has fallen from it's once high position. They took people's money and they and their subsidiary Paypal were callous in their customer service.It happens. Triple billing is wrong and should have been fixed promptly with restitution made voluntarily along with a sincere apology.

The other thing I am noticing is that there is a claim of undisclosed late fees and penalties. Were those spelled out in the terms of service?
#54 Jun 30 2009 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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This isn't a suit over the application of fees to play FFXI. It's a suit about misleading and hidden fees not detailed in the sign up process. It scares me how few people bother to read before posting.

I'm not vouching for the authenticity of the claim... in my 3 years with XI I never felt the fees I paid were misrepresented to me. But 100,000 people filing this suit do feel so. It's fanboyism at it's most rampant and disheartening to see so many people flock against the litigants without the faintest clue what the complaint refers to. Or the authenticity of their claim.

#55 Jun 30 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent

Im willing to go out on a limb here and assume this Esther gal is a single mother who has a son or daughter with a xbox 360. It was dads weekend and he bought his child FFXI because he/she was "oh so good" and asked for it. The kid goes back to moms house and gets the game up and running knowing its an online game and has 30 days free trial. 30 days is up and he somehow, whether without her knowing, or simply excluding certain details when he asked, registers with moms debit card. Maybe even on the 27th of the month getting that fun double charge for 3 days extra of play.

Mom bounces 4 checks because they conveniently charge you when rent and most other bills are due/going through. She gets ****** because she thought it was 12 bucks not 24, but she brushes it off. She figures its a one time thing like the other digital downloads on xbox. Next month rolls around and she gets charged again and bounces 2 more checks.

Now she is heated, calls SE costumer service, and well we all know how that goes.

This is just another naive mom who is willing to give her debit card to a child and use it on the good ol' www.

By the way, to the OP; after square lost 200million + on spirits within, 5million tickles.

By the way, my first post, hola.


Edited, Jul 1st 2009 1:07am by RaisyDaisyFarha
#56 Jun 30 2009 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is, for the most part, a great example or why jury trials are stupid. A whole bunch of people who aren't really sure what the suit is even about are absolutely convinced that it's frivolous, inspired by greed, etc.
I disagree. It's the job of the lawyer to prove to those 12 juries that this is not a frivolous case. Most jury's are going into the court with formed opinions and thus beyond responsible doubt comes into to play. You should either watch or read "Twelve Angry Men" sometime.
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#57 Jun 30 2009 at 10:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Perspicacity wrote:
Karelyn wrote:
Perspicacity wrote:
Are you serious? So, you spill coffee on yourself, and it's McDonald's fault?

I seem to recall something with regards to the case was that the lid wasn't put on properly, so when she gripped the cup, the lid came off and it splattered on her (A fairly easy event to replicate with the cheap cups that McDonald's uses)

Not saying I agree with the case. Just pointing that out.


I know the case well, it wasn't that. It was that the cup didn't have 'Warning: Hot', labeled on it.

Of course, coffee you just ordered, is going to be cold, or milkwarm.....and then once you spill it, you're going to sit in it for 90 seconds. We should never, ever reward stupidity.


The case with the McDonald's coffee is a lot more complex than people think, especially when it is used as an example of "lawsuits gone crazy." McDonald's was serving its coffee 40 degrees hotter than the standard temperature for coffee in the restaurant industry.

From the (rather excellent) wikipedia article on the topic:
Quote:

Other documents obtained from McDonald's showed that from 1982 to 1992 the company had received more than 700 reports of people burned by McDonald's coffee to varying degrees of severity, and had settled claims arising from scalding injuries for more than $500,000.[4] McDonald's quality control manager, Christopher Appleton, testified that this number of injuries was insufficient to cause the company to evaluate its practices. He argued that all foods hotter than 130 °F (54 °C) constituted a burn hazard, and that restaurants had more pressing dangers to warn about. The plaintiffs argued that Appleton conceded that McDonald's coffee would burn the mouth and throat if consumed when served.[14] The trial lasted from August 8–17, 1994, and the twelve-person jury reached their verdict before Judge Robert H. Scott on August 18.[15]


I think there is a lot of viable back-and-forth about this case, and perhaps she shouldn't have won. But I don't think that it was as frivolous as it gets made out to be when you look at the specifics.

One reason why our society is so litigious is that we don't have socialized health care. If someone lacks adequate insurance, if they have any case to get another party to cover medical costs, they will do so aggressively. (Someone recently pointed out that annihilating someone's retirement package, in a society without public health care, is equivalent to a violent crime, when discussing the Bernie Madoff case.) That was part of what was at stake with the McDonald's case - the alternative for Lieback was medical bankruptcy; medical conditions are a factor of about 70% of all bankruptcies, according to a recent Harvard study.
#58 Jun 30 2009 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor Pachichachi wrote:


One reason why our society is so litigious is that we don't have socialized health care.


This is a great post, and this is an especially great point. The cost of medical care can be exorbitant, even for those who have medical coverage. For those without, a serious injury and resulting surgeries can wipe out a lifetime of savings, or create a lifetime of debt.

In this case, if McDonald's had simply paid her medical costs, the case would have never gone forward. It was only when they forced her to sue in order to recover costs that the case became punitive (meant to punish McDonald's).

So many businesses end up on the wrong end up a punitive lawsuit, not because the plaintiff is greedy or opportunistic, but because they simply refuse to accept ANY responsibility, and people feel that a lawsuit is the only way they can get some measure of justice.
#59 Jun 30 2009 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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dyvidd wrote:
Quote:
This thread is, for the most part, a great example or why jury trials are stupid. A whole bunch of people who aren't really sure what the suit is even about are absolutely convinced that it's frivolous, inspired by greed, etc.
I disagree. It's the job of the lawyer to prove to those 12 juries that this is not a frivolous case. Most jury's are going into the court with formed opinions and thus beyond responsible doubt comes into to play. You should either watch or read "Twelve Angry Men" sometime.


I didn't really phrase my point very well, since when I posted, I was just frustrated with the knee jerk "civil lawsuit = frivolous" reaction that is extremely common these days. People have been told so many times that society is too litigious, and they hear second hand about the McDonald's lawsuit, or see stupid warning labels on products, and feel justified in pre judging rather than thinking on a case by case basis.

So my point was actually: Juries can be made up of prejudiced/stupid people who really have no business deciding anything important, but that is just part and parcel of the system. In the same way, a democracy gives the same right to vote to the idiot who punches a straight ticket as to the person who conscientiously studies all of the candidates and tries to make the right choice for each office individually.

I don't actually believe that jury trials should be abolished; I simply bemoan the lack of sophistication that exists among the general population, and the fact that the unsophisticated majority will also form the majority of all jury pools.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 2:42am by KarlHungis
#60 Jul 05 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
The only time PlayOnline prorates your bill is when you sign up for your account in the middle of the month.. then on the 30th or so of that month you get charged a prorated amount PLUS the 12.95 for the next month. Any other time you renew your content ID in the middle of the month you are paying 12.95 for the rest of that month then another 12.95 for the next month when the 1st roles around again which is what some of you are calling double billing. Just read some more and those of you who didnt know that would have figured it out.
#61 Jul 05 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
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fees are describe in the package and online. first 30 is free but you still have to put in a credit card to play. should you decide not to continue to play cancel before the 30th day you will not be charge? yeah right.....


if you want to cancel/deactivate a characters simply go into the content id section and cancel the one's you want you, again if it before the 30 day mark you wont be charge.

but there was only one thing i did notice, when reactivating i was charge twice, this was about 2yrs ago i had deactivate my accounts cause i was'nt going to be around for a month or so, then after i came back i reactivated my account to continue playing, one month later i was charge for two months instead of one. from what they told me, they said since i deactivated them before the 30 day mark i would not be charge, but in a second event they told me when i reactivated them i would be charge for that month and also the time im playing now?

after a 1 hr of pointless conversation i had no choice but to end up paying....
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#62 Jul 05 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow... agree with other people in this thread... someone didn't read the ToS, which is really sad. This is almost as bad as that person who spilled McD's coffee on them, then sued because it was hot and burned them... Yeah, well coffees hot. FFXI is Pay to Play. There ya go.


Not to get too off topic, but a lot of people like to site this McD's case as a situation where an idiot sued a corporation because of their own stupidity. With this McD's case (possibly unlike the case in question for the SE lawsuit) the coffee was purposely kept at a temperature that would cause scalding and third degree burns if it came in contact with human skin. The reason given for this by the local store manager was that most people do not drink the coffee right away, but rather wait until they get to work to drink it, and by dispensing it at such a high temperature, it was more likely to still be hot when the customer got to work.

The truth of the matter is that McD's had been sued in a number of situations prior to this for the exact same reason. They were aware that this was a potential issue. In fact, the coffee was so hot that it immediately melted and grafted the woman's pants to her legs and caused severe third degree burns which required emergency medical attention and ultimately caused permanent physical damage. Coffee is hot, but that doesn't give you the right to serve it at such a high temperature that it is actually dangerous.

Moral of the story: You can't read a quick excerpt online and think you understand the truth about things. I'd like to see how this person's lawsuit pans out and see if I can get the whole story before I agree with the various "should have reads the TOS"'s.

Happy fourth.
#63 Jul 06 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I was under the impression the lawsuit was about common SE issues like this: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10;mid=1246901274110256384;num=8;page=1
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#64 Jul 25 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Default
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Esther Leong is a greedy wh*** looking for money. If people don't read into any articles they see titled 'SE sued' then they may get some bad publicity and will be very unfortunate. :(
#65 Jul 25 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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ok i'm just surprised this topic has lasted so long...
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#66 Jul 28 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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People get sue happy, but a class action law suit? That's alot of people not reading the TOS and all. I mean, look at all the other people who didn't have an issue. I hope they look at it from that aspect. Yeesh.
#67 Jul 28 2009 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I remember when I was in Hawaii quite a few years ago, hearing about a woman suing McDoncalds because coffee spilled on her lap, I think the lid had *caution-Hot* as well.

The billing system for FFXIV will be great if its similar to WoW's billing, and game cards for FFXIV can help those who dont have their own bank cards, but it can also help prevent some people from ******** their own credit over.


#68 Jul 28 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Youngtooth wrote:
The truth of the matter is that McD's had been sued in a number of situations prior to this for the exact same reason. They were aware that this was a potential issue. In fact, the coffee was so hot that it immediately melted and grafted the woman's pants to her legs and caused severe third degree burns which required emergency medical attention and ultimately caused permanent physical damage. Coffee is hot, but that doesn't give you the right to serve it at such a high temperature that it is actually dangerous.

Off topic, but I thought I would elaborate even more to show how truly ridiculous it is to use the hot coffee case as an example of abuse of the legal system.

McD's had 62 prior cases of injury due to their coffee and had ignored all claims. The woman, who needed the surgery to restore her ability to urinate after the incident, had originally sued only for medical expenses and lost wages, totaling about $40,000 I believe. It wasn't until McD's tried to fight her claim that she sought the millions in punitive damages.

The legal system and most cases makes a lot of sense when you actual read through them rather than read news articles about them.
#69 Jul 28 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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EliteDW wrote:
Updates and maintenance are what we pay SE for


Hopefully there will be checks sent out to reimburse all of us for the past few updates

Professor Pachichachi wrote:
One reason why our society is so litigious is that we don't have socialized health care.


Hahahaha...crazy kids
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#70 Aug 02 2009 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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What some people fail to realize is that yes SE bills on the first of every month.. If you started your account up on lets say the 27th of july.. you will be billed a full 12.95 for july and then billed 12.95 for august. both will charge to your credit card on august 1st.. The only time it is prorated is when you have your 30 day free trial when you first buy the game! the one cool thing about this is that if you are broke you can start your subscription early on in the month and not worry about a charge till the beginning of the next one:)
#71 Aug 02 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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wait, so if I started ont he 20th, I pay 24$ on the next 1st even if I only played less thna half that first month?
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#72 Aug 02 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Juts checked and Ive been charged 2 full months for 1month and 10days worth of active time, that is pretty BS if you ask me
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#73 Aug 06 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Well here is the thing that bothers me, and I'm not sure if alot of people notice this or not. Granted I have no problem paying monthly for my FFXI, I love it. But my husband and I both have accounts and both pay to play monthy.. thats not the problem. Problem comes in that even with both of us having the same amount of characters, we both have an extra mule (content ID) for storage.. I end up paying more to play than him.. I always assumed it was since I played on 360 and him on PC. Last month's bill was 14 for him .. and 25 for me. Someone wanna take a shot at this?
#74 Aug 06 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe because my account gets debited I really should pay more attention. Just checked the past three months, this one we were just billed for was the 14 and 25. Last month 20 and 25, and before that 13 and 20. Keep in mind neither of us have added or taken away any content IDs. >.>; Odd. But.. even still I love SE too much to sue! lol
#75 Aug 06 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
McD's had 62 prior cases of injury due to their coffee and had ignored all claims. The woman, who needed the surgery to restore her ability to urinate after the incident, had originally sued only for medical expenses and lost wages, totaling about $40,000 I believe. It wasn't until McD's tried to fight her claim that she sought the millions in punitive damages.


Off topic still, but regardless of the above, when you purchase coffee, you KNOW it's hot (unless it's iced cofee, but we all know that's not the case here). Therefore, if you've some amount of common sense, don't place it somewhere where it's going to fall in your lap. McD's made the coffee hot because that's how we drink it. It wasn't their fault she spilled it on herself. It's like a guy smashing his thumb with a hammer, and then taking legal action against the makers of said hammer because it didn't say "Careful: You could smash your thumbs" on it. It's common sense.

But yer right, it doesn't tie in well to the topic at hand. Maybe your "reading THROUGH it instead of ABOUT it" could be applied to the importance of the TOS, eh?
#76 Aug 17 2009 at 1:19 PM Rating: Default
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It's not SE's fault that this person just clicked accept without reading the terms of service. SE will clearly win the case.
#77 Aug 17 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I renewed my account Jan 30 and was billed for the month of Jan and Feb the following day. I think it is a misleading bill period. I never did research about it so really it can't be false advertising. Apparently you are not paying by month u play, but each month you play. In other words, not every 30 days.
#78 Aug 17 2009 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah most people forget that there are in fact people working on MMOs consistantly since their release, those people need to be paid. Fair enough SE is a **** rich company already, but why make the game if they can't make a profit too. Some people will sue over anything these days, its pathetic. I've never found SE have 'decieved' me with their monthly payments on FFXI. Maybe thats just me.


So, you'd be fine with it if I came to your house once a month and took $14.95 from you? That's effectively what SE is doing when they are double billing people. They actually have a term for it, its called theft (or in this case fraud).

I'm generally not for sue-happy people. If I were on the jury that awarded the woman that burned herself a million dollars, I would literally have laughed her out of court. Coffee is HOT. If you spill it on yourself you will get BURNED. Common sense says that if you don't want to get burned, don't put something hot where it could fall into your lap. Honestly, I wish the judge had ruled that she go to prison because she was too **** stupid to be out with the rest of the population.

I'd also feel bad for SE if this was a one time thing. It isn't. Its been happening for years. They've known about it for years. The BBB has (allegdedly) contacted them about this many times. So, basically they knowingly have stolen money from people for years on end. Read that again: Knowingly stolen money from people for years. Didn't we sent Bernie Madoff to prison for doing this? Granted, Madoff was much much worse due to the amount of money he stole. But isn't this the exact same principle?

SE has continued to say "It isn't us" "talk to your bank" "Our records don't show anything". If SE isn't willing to do the right thing here, then yeah, people SHOULD sue. SE has had literally years to fix this. They haven't and continue to deny that there is even a problem. That should bother you. That should bother you a lot.

This is one of the few times in my life that I actually agree with the suing party in a class action lawsuit. I hope they win. More importantly, I hope this makes SE fix this. Its a problem, and it needs to be fixed.
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#79 Aug 19 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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basically they knowingly have stolen money from people for years


Huh? where did you get this from? People have been deactivating and reactivating accounts for years, and if you don't time when you do so, you will pay two months of fees for a month and a day, this is no secret, but it's not stealing money, because it is in their ToS and it's your responsibility to decide the value of your money. Is that extra day or two worth the $12-14? If so, go for it, but if not, don't activate your account anyway and claim they stole your money
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#80 Aug 19 2009 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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ascorbic wrote:
I'm not vouching for the authenticity of the claim... in my 3 years with XI I never felt the fees I paid were misrepresented to me. But 100,000 people filing this suit do feel so. It's fanboyism at it's most rampant and disheartening to see so many people flock against the litigants without the faintest clue what the complaint refers to. Or the authenticity of their claim.


It's not 100.000 people filing the suit. Only one, claiming to be representing those 100.000 people. Basically, if you are living in the US and playing FFXI, you are one of those 100k. Btw, you won't see a dime unless you sign up and likely need to pay a few hundred $ in fees. (Whatever way the case goes, the lawyer wins.)

The 100k is simply used to hide the fact it's merely a banned user seeking vengence against SE for not refunding 4 years of lost time.

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#81 Aug 19 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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AerisFFVII wrote:
Maybe because my account gets debited I really should pay more attention. Just checked the past three months, this one we were just billed for was the 14 and 25. Last month 20 and 25, and before that 13 and 20. Keep in mind neither of us have added or taken away any content IDs. >.>; Odd. But.. even still I love SE too much to sue! lol


Keep in mind the mini-expansions and security token are in there as well. Also, if you are importing the game, you will run into currency conversions.

I do hope they will switch to that flexible payment system soon. Pay for 30 days instead of first of each month. No more people complaining about prorating at least.
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#82 Aug 19 2009 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Huh? where did you get this from? People have been deactivating and reactivating accounts for years, and if you don't time when you do so, you will pay two months of fees for a month and a day, this is no secret, but it's not stealing money, because it is in their ToS and it's your responsibility to decide the value of your money. Is that extra day or two worth the $12-14? If so, go for it, but if not, don't activate your account anyway and claim they stole your money


The double-billing issues weren't about restarting one's account. Yes, what you said above is written in the ToS and (while I'm not happy about it) is legal. What isn't legal is when SE bills you for a month and then bills you again for that same month. It doesn't happen to everyone, but it has happened many times.
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