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Gear SwapsFollow

#1 Jun 25 2009 at 5:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hope and pray that FFXIV will forgo the idea of gear swapping in battle. I do it in FFXI because it's necessary, but it's a really preposterous and annoying game mechanic. Far be it from me to try to inject logic and realism into a fantasy game, but unless they add a Japanese style super hero class, I shouldn't be changing clothes in the middle of a fight.

Just thought I'd get that idea out there and see how others felt about it.
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#2 Jun 25 2009 at 5:57 AM Rating: Good
Yes this would be a nice thing to not have to do, but if there is enough invent and macro space it would be tolerable.
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#3 Jun 25 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Default
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Only problem I see come with it is that it's not 'realistic'. Well boohoo, lot's of things aren't in an MMO.

I think it adds more good to the game (especially at level cap) than it takes away, so keeping it would be more beneficial imesho.
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#4 Jun 25 2009 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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I think the only thing that can be switched out in combat is weapons. Not armor, only switch out armor after battle only.
#5 Jun 25 2009 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I think you should be capable of switching armor in mid combat.

However, there is an extended animation sequence where your character strips down to their underwear, then put their new armor on.
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#6 Jun 25 2009 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
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The reason why I say no gear swaps in combat is because I like to keep the same gear throughout the fight, and do not like the idea of switching out for situational reasons. I can understand weapons (however this might change for this game) Because you want to skill up different weapons at the same time and you might be using a weapon that you aren't so good at and get into a difficult fight and need your good weapon. However armor isn't the same.

#7 Jun 25 2009 at 6:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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I too would like to see gear swapping go away. Besides the realism part, gear swapping also takes more inventory space, reduces the strategic nature of gear choices, and reduces the effectiveness of negative stats on armor.

If gear swapping stays, I at least want to see it no longer effect targeting and remove the blink. There is no reason that the graphics can't just instantly change into the new armor once the system is ready instead of being invisible for 1-2 seconds. There is absolutely no reason to lose target lock due to armor changes. There is very little more frustrating then target player, hit cure V macro, see Redhobbit starts casting Cure V on Redhobbit just because they changed gear at an inopportune time. It's very annoying and there is absolutely no reason for it. I've even skipped over healing people occasionally that constantly swap gear just because it was so annoying to target them.
#8 Jun 25 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Default
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I too would like to see gear swapping go away. Besides the realism part, gear swapping also takes more inventory space, reduces the strategic nature of gear choices, and reduces the effectiveness of negative stats on armor.


Inventory space is an easy issue to deal with without PS2, so no problems there.

It also increases the effectiveness of the player, and gives more choices when it comes to endgame gear progression (which is an important thing to note, in a game where progression is mostly horizontal).

Also while SE couldn't deal with the blinking, they added a command <stpt> and <stal> that you can target pt/ally members with and takes care of the losing target issue when changing gears.
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#9 Jun 25 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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I want to see it gone. Like i said in another topic I don't want there to be like gear swapping for every single spell a black mage casts. I mean as a Black Mage, Nuking gear, enfeeble gear, etc. It got very out of hand. In a game like FFXI gear swapping was needed because of the way the system worked, but in a game like say WoW gear swapping is essentially game breaking.

So it really ends up what the battle mechanics and everything are like, but still I don't like the idea of it.
#10 Jun 25 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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I hope gear swapping stays, the negative effect on the inventory space is easily fixable. The positive I see in gear swapping is, it adds more strategy to the game. It also gives you more gear options to strive for endgame, if you couldn't then there would only be a few pieces of gear even worth striving to get. It adds more strategy in "End Game", because tank can switch between element resistant gear, to magic defense all together gear, to haste gear, to attack gear, and then defense gear all at different times during the fight. All this adds a different time and strategy as to when to use each set of gear. Its more strategy in needing a lot of sets of gear to defeat a hard boss, rather then being stuck to a single set of gear the entire fight. I want FFXI to make harder bosses, and this is just one way they could make harder bosses.
#11 Jun 25 2009 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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For my mage jobs, I wish they could have added a Swiss-Army Staff so I didn't have to carry all my low cost ghetto staffs. :D
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#12 Jun 25 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Yay, more gear swapping threads.

It needs to go, and if I had to bet money on it, it will be gone. There have been several very large discussions debating and discussing it. The advantages of gear swapping are no where near the disadvantages, and advantages of NOT swapping.

I'm 100% for situational gear, and think people should have many different options. For example, in FFXI if you want Haste+5 on your legs, you pretty much just have to strive for Byakko's haidate, and any jobs who can wear it spend most of their time trying to get it. I would like there to be more pieces of armor with similar stats, from different events, so people can be unique and do things in their own way, or the way they prefer, while still being up to par if they are willing to work hard at something, for something. More or less, people need more options. And of course, different sets of gear for different things, depending on what you are doing. For example, on a DD job, depending on what you are fighting, different sets of gear, depending on how you are fighting it, different sets of gear.

Gear swapping confuses too many things, and makes things to much of a bother. The main disadvantages it has is:

1: Realism, it takes away from the reality and makes no sense whatsoever. Warriors in the real world would wear different types of armor and weapons depending on what they were doing, or their profession, but they would not take off all their clothes, take a swing, then put another set back on, mid battle.

2: Inventory, I'm sure they can and will allow for a bigger inventory than FFXI had in FFXIV, however even at that, there is still so much that will be clogging up your inventory, and can present some major problems depending on how much gear is really added to the game.

3: It is stressful, and takes away from the fun of the game, it also takes away from the actual skill level. Instead of concentrating so much on your actions, and watching them very closely, you simply swap whatever you need in, for whatever action, as often as you need. It honestly takes a aspect of skill out of things, and switches it around in a way I and many others do not agree with.

4: It is repetitive, it gets annoying fast, people are always trying to figure out just what piece of gear to swap, exactly when, at exactly what time. It gets confusing and leaves people feeling in a way, that if they don't have 500 different macro's and scripts setup, they aren't at their full potential, and end up losing interest.


The Advantages of NOT gear swapping are :

1: It's a lot easier on the player. Reducing the stress load on some one, and increasing the fun and skill level required to defeat certain monsters. It makes the game a lot more streamlined, instead of bulky and confusing.

2: People can be more creative with what gear set they use for a fight. They will have to mix in a little of this, a little of that, etc, as Square Enix originally intended FFXI to be, instead of macro'ing in as much of one thing for each action as you possibly can. It will add a sense of fun, and being able to be more unique in picking and choosing what stats you want during a battle, instead of just "swap to this generic gear set, swap to that generic gear set, preform action A and B with these gearsets" until the battle is over.

3: Easier on your inventory and storage. Even though I still believe there should be many gear sets for many different situations, to give people new things to strive for, it just should not be something some one does Mid-Battle.



I think the popular opinion, the advantages, and disadvantages speak for themselves. I think the game will be made where you focus more on a gear set for what you are doing, and leave it on and concentrate More on your actions themselves, and when and how you execute them, than simply swapping a bunch of gear every few seconds. I also think as I said, it will make the game much more streamlined, and less bulky, as well as being easier on the eyes and mind, and less confusing.

I would say it's probably a safe bet from seeing how many people do NOT want gear swapping and looking at all the logical advantages and disadvantages to say it will most likely not be in FFXIV.

Personally? I just don't want the headache of gear-swapping all over again, and would like to see my character the entire battle through, in a cool set of armor, instead of him going invisible every few seconds, for a few seconds, and magically reappearing in a completely different set of armor, over and over through the entire fight.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 5:11pm by EndlessJourney
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#13 Jun 25 2009 at 4:30 PM Rating: Default
Gear swapping in FFXI was something I took pride in and used to as best effect I could when others just auto attacked witha pizza in their mouths, but in FFXIV it is a total unknown. I hope there is a similar feel from FFIXV, smugness was/is integral to FFXI, a kind of smugness WoW could never dream of and if it did it would mistake it for posing.
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#14 Jun 25 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
The positive I see in gear swapping is, it adds more strategy to the game. It also gives you more gear options to strive for endgame, if you couldn't then there would only be a few pieces of gear even worth striving to get. It adds more strategy in "End Game", because tank can switch between element resistant gear, to magic defense all together gear, to haste gear, to attack gear, and then defense gear all at different times during the fight. All this adds a different time and strategy as to when to use each set of gear. Its more strategy in needing a lot of sets of gear to defeat a hard boss, rather then being stuck to a single set of gear the entire fight.


Gear-swapping is not strategic. Strategic thinking is about trade-offs and making decisions prior to having all the relevant information.

And ultimately, gear-swapping makes gear decisions easier and less interesting. With swapping available, the question when evaluating new gear is "will this gear improve any of my abilities?", whereas without swapping the question becomes "will this gear improve my performance overall? Will it do it all the time or only in certain situations? Will it possibly change my play style?"

All other things being equal, gear choice is MORE strategic without gear-swapping, because it forces you to make the decision to use situational gear before it's actually needed, and it makes min-maxing harder, because play-style doesn't significantly affect gear choice if you can change gear at any time.
#15 Jun 25 2009 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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I hope they make a big emphasis on elemental resistances.
You equip lots of Fire resistant gear so that Bomb doesn't kill you when it blows up.

On that note, I also want magic tiers on all elements to be equal in strength! In other words, every element of Tier 1 magic will inflict the same amount of damage but will be affected by elemental weakness/strength. Exploiting a weakness can be somewhat simple after a while but perhaps make some mobs that weakness changes so you have to actually figure out its weakness during the fight.

I want to see absorb, reflect, null! Bring it all on!
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#16 Jun 25 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Default
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Gear-swapping is not strategic. Strategic thinking is about trade-offs and making decisions prior to having all the relevant information.


This is not true, because this then makes a lot of sets useless. If you not wearing enough element resistant gear then you are better off not wearing any, same goes for magic reduction, and for a lot of other things. There will still be easy to min/max, they will just test certain setups like usual.

Now To Your Points:

1. Realism- What is real about a game. There is so much not real about a game that to even compare real life to a game is not smart. Nothing is real about a lil tarutaru hitting a big mob with an onion sword, and its actually hurting. Nothing is real about a video game so that agruement is pointless.

2. Inventory Space- Easily fixable as I already stated earlier. They should increase the items you can carry but not unlimited.

3. Stressful- Really is not that stressful, I enjoyed it but even I didn't, nothing makes you swap gear. I had many parties where maybe I was tired or busy and didn't swap gear. Many people in parties did not swap gear and it wasn't a problem.

4. Repetitive- Pressing the attack button is repetitive, using the same weapon skill everytime you have 100% tp is repetitive. Everything in a game is pretty much repetitive, so I don't see this as different from anything else, plus it doesn't force you to gear swap.

I do agree your character should not become invisible when you gear swap, but thats something that can be fixed also. You should be able to stay targeted and switch gear.



Edited, Jun 25th 2009 10:32pm by HocusP
#17 Jun 25 2009 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
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This is not true, because this then makes a lot of sets useless. If you not wearing enough element resistant gear then you are better off not wearing any, same goes for magic reduction, and for a lot of other things. There will still be easy to min/max, they will just test certain setups like usual.


Let's say a boss has Fire, Water, and Lighting attacks. All the attacks are telegraphed and you have enough time to gear swap for the attacks. Now, are you really going to switch gear for each attack?

What if a boss only had a Lighting attack, are you really going to gear swap just for that? I mean on the grand scale of things FFXI seemed to have pretty poor itemization due to it's lack of customability and other factors.
#18HocusP, Posted: Jun 25 2009 at 6:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes you would if it makes the fight easier to tank, (like full fire resist when tiamat flying etc). What I was saying was they could use this as something to make some fights harder. Maybe on 1 particular boss, make it necessary to swap gear (tanks mostly), or the moves will be too much to handle without the right setup. Like fire setup makes the tiamat fight a ton easier but its not "necessary" to win, how about making it necessary on a couple bosses. Like a boss switch forms rather quickly, and would eat you and spit you out without you having the right setup. This could work on mages also, like if your elemental skill (or other skills, enfeebling etc), isn't a certain skill level you get resisted automatically, adding the need to use certain setups. This would at least keep the fight interesting because you would have to know what form hes on (could change every 2 mins to something new), and what setup to use and what to do. I think thats better then the regular, tank and kill for 1-2hours every fight, at least everytime you fight that boss it would be different.
#19 Jun 25 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Swapping gear should never ever be a requirement for a fight unless it's something like a special item you hold or something like that, and even then I don't like fights that make you do that. I see it much more as abuse of mechanics rather than actual strategy.

#20 Jun 25 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Default
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If it was an abuse of mechanics, why does some hnms (like jorm, ouryu), resist a lot, they know people are going to use more elementary skill gear. Why make gear with just str on it, when they know that its a formula for higher ws damage that people will use. Like why make stuff like turban (walhara or whatever I forgot), with just haste, knowing that people are going to use it and switch out of it. SE made gear just to encourage you to swap gear is my opinion, so why would they encourage an abuse of mechanics. Comeon they knew nobody was going to weapon skill with turban on, and items like this. Why make gear that increase drain effect, they are encouraging people to switch gear when casting drain. I dont think many developers would encourage an "abuse of mechanics" is the way I see it.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 11:39pm by HocusP
#21 Jun 25 2009 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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I'd go as far to say that FFXI had poor itemization to begin with. I doubt that SE ever planned on gear swapping to happen from the getgo, some guy was like "hey I can use this to make my sneak attack stronger" type deals and everyone caught on.

Also once things like Blink tanking caught on SE decided to support it. I don't know much about this, but it might of been the same with gear swapping.
#22 Jun 25 2009 at 7:59 PM Rating: Default
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Even if this is so and it wasn't in there vision to gear swap, theres other things that could have happened. Theres pros to gear swapping to SE, it gives people a ton more items to desire for, in conclusion keeping them around longer. Even if it wasn't there vision, I think saying "an abuse of mechanics" is a little over the top because I believe if it was, SE would have stoped it rather then support it. I think most developers that find "an abuse of mechanics" would stop it rather then support it and add content to encourage it. Its easy to stop, give the ballista penalty when changing gear in battle and thats the end of that. Instead they looked at it as good and decided to support it and add content to enhance it. They decided rather quickly to support gear swapping way back when zilart was released, abjs like hectacomb cap (has slow movement and high stats), were obviously going to be gear swapped. There are many things thats going to happen that the developers might not have envisioned, but that doesn't mean its automatically bad because they didnt envision it.

One more thing, I think gear swapping and blink tanking are totally different. You couldn't stop blink tanking without messing up a whole job, or removing the job and reworking it, which is way harder then how easy they could stop gear swapping. Like I said add the ballista penalty or lost of all tp, like when you remove your weapon and gear swapping is done and over with. Stopping blink tanking, or like the /nin subjob thing is a lot harder, and would take a lot more thought. Some said just make utsusemi ichi level 38, but I dont think SE wants noone subbing nin either. If that happened noone would sub nin and say hello to war/sams, and /sams, 2 handed weapons for everybody and another min/max subjob (sam now instead of nin). Then they would have to do something to sam sub and it would go on forever. Point is, if they thought gear swapping was "an abuse of mechanics" its very easy to take out of game and not encourage it. So comparing it to something thats very hard to take out, isn't really equal.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 12:16am by HocusP
#23 Jun 25 2009 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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True, but you need to understand that it would be much better if there was better gear progression and things. I thought it was bad enough in WoW when three classes fought over one piece of gear, but it's just insane in FFXI, not only does everyone want the piece of gear, everyone essentially needs the piece of gear if they want to stay at the top of their game.

Another problem was also the class structure. No job had any real specialization or anything so everyone was expected to do everything. Meaning you really needed everything, this is something that also has to go for XIV. Once this goes, it will seriously hamper the need for gear swapping.
#24 Jun 25 2009 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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As I've said in the billions of other gear swapping threads:


Gear swapping needs to be restricted, and SE needs to not create so much situational gear that would completely discourage people from wearing a piece full-time.

Having different sets of armor for different situations is fine. A hMP, MATT or ACC build. But not switching them in the middle of battle. It's min-max at its worst.

I wouldn't go so far as to say NEVER allowing a gear change during battle. (Weapons, for instance) but some solid restrictions would be wonderful.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 9:20pm by Kirbster
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#25HocusP, Posted: Jun 25 2009 at 8:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I dont see whats so wrong with min/max especially if its encouraged by the game. I don't see much wrong with people wanting to do the most damage they can. I do see something wrong with people just doing this to brag and run around like they won an award or something, but then just dont associate with these people. I mean I switched gear on blm as much as I did on my war, like with ugg pendate and sorcerer rings and staffs etc. Im not going to say much else because I edited my last post to add a paragraph.
#26 Jun 25 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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I was a bard, blu and scholar. Believe me man, I know gear swaps.

When people start writing 50 line macros it gets pretty effing ridiculous.
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#27 Jun 25 2009 at 9:10 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I hope and pray that FFXIV will forgo the idea of gear swapping in battle. I do it in FFXI because it's necessary, but it's a really preposterous and annoying game mechanic. Far be it from me to try to inject logic and realism into a fantasy game, but unless they add a Japanese style super hero class, I shouldn't be changing clothes in the middle of a fight.

Just thought I'd get that idea out there and see how others felt about it.




Edited, Jun 26th 2009 1:14am by jakarai
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#28 Jun 25 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I said the same thing myself a few days ago. I would not miss gear swaps in the least little bit.
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#29Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 12:14 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I honestly don't quite understand where the anti-gear swap-mindset is coming from, but what you're proposing will make the endgame extremely dull. That is all.
#30 Jun 26 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
I honestly don't quite understand where the anti-gear swap-mindset is coming from, but what you're proposing will make the endgame extremely dull. That is all.


How? Fewer single purpose macro pieces for you to collect?

I'm not saying to get rid of it completely, but restricting gear swaps will force players to make strategic choices about what pieces to wear, instead of just having everything at max all the time.
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#31 Jun 26 2009 at 1:05 AM Rating: Default
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How? Fewer single purpose macro pieces for you to collect?


exactly, yes.

In a horizontal progressive endgame, things like this are worth gold.
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#32 Jun 26 2009 at 1:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Only because players exploited it.

I'd rather SE focus on a new novel way to support a horizontal progressive endgame system than continue a flawed system based almost exclusively on equipment.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 2:34am by Kirbster
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#33 Jun 26 2009 at 1:36 AM Rating: Default
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Sounds good.

If they can't do it though, I'd rather have them continue using the flawed system, as silly as it sounds.

Hm, I wonder what could it be like?
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#34 Jun 26 2009 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:

1. Realism- What is real about a game. There is so much not real about a game that to even compare real life to a game is not smart. Nothing is real about a lil tarutaru hitting a big mob with an onion sword, and its actually hurting. Nothing is real about a video game so that agruement is pointless.


Okay, I am getting -really- sick of this argument, I'm hearing it over and over and it's very irrational. If nothing about a game should be real, maybe we should be able to jump into the air and fly around like on Dragon ball Z? Maybe we should be able to eat a tree, then shit out a wooden boat? There are lots of things, even in a fantasy game that are realistic. That's what puts a emphasis on the fantasy itself, and allows you to relate to it.

There is, always has been, and needs to be a bit of realism to a fantasy game, so that you can relate to it, and it doesn't feel too off the wall. Personally, I feel if a little taru has super strong powers, he can hit a dragon with a special sword and damage it, that sort of thing is strait out of folklore. But during the middle of a intense fight with that said dragon, having him instantly be in completely different armor, then back again, raises an eyebrow and feels a bit stupid.

The only pointless argument is yours, sorry.

Quote:

3. Stressful- Really is not that stressful, I enjoyed it but even I didn't, nothing makes you swap gear. I had many parties where maybe I was tired or busy and didn't swap gear. Many people in parties did not swap gear and it wasn't a problem.


Tisk tisk, you were gimping the merit party then, sadly to say. I hate to put it this way, but you were indeed being lazy. When I go to merit parties, on whatever job, I have at least about 10 or so gear swaps. I'm constantly swapping, and switching gear. Do I like it? Not at all, I hate it, but that is how you are to be your best in Final Fantasy XI, by swapping gear. I want, in FFXIV, to be my best on how wisely I choose which gear to wear to what fight.
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#35 Jun 26 2009 at 2:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Okay, I am getting -really- sick of this argument, I'm hearing it over and over and it's very irrational. If nothing about a game should be real, maybe we should be able to jump into the air and fly around like on Dragon ball Z? Maybe we should be able to eat a tree, then **** out a wooden boat? There are lots of things, even in a fantasy game that are realistic. That's what puts a emphasis on the fantasy itself, and allows you to relate to it.

There is, always has been, and needs to be a bit of realism to a fantasy game, so that you can relate to it, and it doesn't feel too off the wall. Personally, I feel if a little taru has super strong powers, he can hit a dragon with a special sword and damage it, that sort of thing is strait out of folklore. But during the middle of a intense fight with that said dragon, having him instantly be in completely different armor, then back again, raises an eyebrow and feels a bit stupid.

The only pointless argument is yours, sorry.


Okay, we're not saying fantasy worlds don't need rules. Even fake worlds need to have rules the world follows. A lot of things like not being able to fly, or other things are tied into how the game world is. However, being able to equip and unequip things is purely a mechanic....which I agree has to go.
#36Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 2:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) In the end this only lowers the min/maxing to one set of gear, instead of many more like in XI. It supports laziness more than anything.
#37 Jun 26 2009 at 3:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Laziness. That's always a laugh. Nothing like the pressure to work hard when you're playing a game for recreation.

Quote:
I honestly don't quite understand where the anti-gear swap-mindset is coming from, but what you're proposing will make the endgame extremely dull. That is all.


It would make the endgame to FFXI fairly dull. If the endgame to FFXIV is very similar to the one in FFXI, it's going to be a relative failure anyway. XIV is likely going to have a very different kind of endgame anyway-- and could in fact never have an end game at all.

But as I said previously, the failure of a system that emphasizes progression through gear is one of the things that caused me to finally quit XI.
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#38Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 3:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It'd be better than what most of the other MMO's have (sadly).
#39 Jun 26 2009 at 3:54 AM Rating: Default
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Ok, here's the thing. Gear switching in FFXI mostly comes down to adding a strategic element to the gameplay which is otherwise absent (and shouldn't be). I can deliver you the same system without making you carry around absurd amounts of gear, absolving you of all the cumbersome macros, a deeper and more enriching strategic element, and all while keeping things in canon (more realistic). In short, I can give you the same system and present it in a way that's 100x better. And it doesn't even involve your equipment-- not even a little bit. It would even leave room for making equipment a completely cosmetic decision.

Now if SE does something along those lines, it will be decent. But the gameplay will still suffer from the dry, terse process of mastery that FFXI does. It can be better still... complexity needs to be increased within the gameplay.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#40Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 4:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Surely, but if it's not linked to endgame the player will suffer from not having enough events to do since everything new is a sidegrade and when there are only few sets of gear to use, the chance that the new event has something you want for your job becomes slim.
#41 Jun 26 2009 at 4:55 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:

It'd be better than what most of the other MMO's have (sadly).

Anyway, right now I'm going by the guess that FFXIV endgame will be quite similar to what FFXI offers, since there's not enough info to assume anything else yet. And for that kind of endgame, switching gears is the good way to go.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 11:42am by Hyanmen


You don't seem to understand some things Hyanmen...

First of all, not wanting to swap gear for every action you perform is not laziness, it's the fact that people don't want to instantly change a enitre set of gear mid battle, many times over, for every action they preform. They just don't want to, they rather put on a armor set, and concentrate more on the fight itself.

Everything the Developers have said about FFXIV so far has suggested the end game will be very much different from FFXI. They keep talking about everything from "character growth" to new types of systems, to "a more Casual MMO that takes up less time" the list goes on and on. Not the mention the fact of how the biggest majority of people quitting FFXI quit because of the end game scene, and 95% of people are unsatisfied in one way or another about how it is setup. I would say these are all pretty safe bets to say it will be very much different.

And still, no, "switch gears" is not the way to go. It's a bad system and design. As some one else said, instead of having to choose your gear wisely, and mix stats, and have different sets for different events, you simply carry a absolute ton of gear on you, and switch it all out for every different little thing you do. It puts too much strain on everything from macro's, to simply figuring out what to put where, and when. and for years square enix has said they want to do things in their next MMO that they didn't do, did wrong, or couldn't do in FFXI.
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#42 Jun 26 2009 at 5:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Well then I'll elaborate a bit.

If you open up your menu in FFXI, you'll see your stats, and alongside them, a grid with your gear. Now take that same grid that contains your equipment, and pretend that's not your equipment. It could be anything else. Your equipment is a completely separate menu, and your stats come from things you can't see (not unlike gear such as jewelry and capes already are in FFXI).

Now you can already probably imagine where that leads. Stats could be influenced by different crystals, gems, trinkets, whatever you want to make them-- you can only put certain kinds in certain parts of the grid, allowing you to change your stats at any given time, but with limitations. And of course, you have to actually get the **** things.

But that's only a superficial change to the system in FFXI. It's the same principles entirely, and doesn't add anything further to what's already there. And having said that, you can probably imagine any number of similar systems on your own... you could use any number of things other than a grid, like a wheel, and change the rules of placement in a number of ways. You can even make it so that you get different KINDS of grids, and that where you place certain items on the grid in relation to other items also creates unique effects. Moving these grid items mid battle could completely alter the performance of your character.

One of the limitations of the gameplay in FFXI is the fairly linear and simplistic stat system. For example, if you're using something based on STR, you're almost always trying to get as much STR as possible. Maybe you're trying to balance STR with ATT and ACC relative to the evasion and defense rates of the monster you're fighting, but it's all a pretty simple balancing act even then. People will quibble over the most perfect setup on the forum, and then break out a parser to see how many % points different they really are. And once you figure it out, you're done. Nothing to do but actually press the buttons.

This is just a side effect of the primary problem with combat in FFXI. It's not reactive enough. Most monsters range from fairly to very predictable, and usually whether you can or can't predict what they're going to do... there's not much you can do about it. You can maybe try to get out of range, or kite it for a bit, or kill it faster, but it's going to largely come down to whatever gear you have on. There aren't enough judgment calls to make in battle.

Now to go back to my comments about stats, imagine if all mobs were very unpredictable. At a second's notice a mob might start trying to dodge your attacks, and you might need to make all your hits as accurate as possible. Then, the mob might trip and fall, and rather than focus on accuracy, it's a perfect opportunity to pounce and focus on your attack power. Of course, most of the time it will be a matter of finding the optimal balance.

Ok, so even that is operating within a framework of FFXI, and is still nearly identical in concept to what's already there... it's just changing those decisions mid-battle rather than before you get to camp.

Without going on for too much longer, more gameplay elements need to exist than a few stats and status ailments. Distance, positioning and timing for examples can have more importance-- they can be more prevalent as judgment calls that players have to make. The way these different stats, abilities, traits, gameplay aspects interact is what creates the strategic elements of the game. And a surefire way to increase the complexity is to make more of them that interact in more complex ways.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 5:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And still, yes, 'switch gears' is the way to go. It's a good system and design. As someone else said, instead of having to choose your gear wisely and have different sets for different events, you simply take it to the next level and choose your gear wisely for most of the actions you do. Inventory issues are irrelevant, this ain't no PS2.
#44Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 5:21 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It sounds good, but I'm still quite lost as to how you could develop the endgame around it (with horizontal progression)?
#45 Jun 26 2009 at 5:29 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:

Surely, but if it's not linked to endgame the player will suffer from not having enough events to do since everything new is a sidegrade and when there are only few sets of gear to use, the chance that the new event has something you want for your job becomes slim.

So if that system can keep endgamers busy without involving equipment in any way while still having horizontal progression- I'm all up for it.


Your flaw with this is thinking that just because you aren't swapping out armor for every action, that automatically means that you won't have to work at getting better equipment. That makes absolutely no sense.

We are talking about not having to keep 5 level 30 pieces and 5 level 75 pieces in the same inventory so that we can swap in some of those superior level 30's for an action that really shouldn't require a piece of armor that low. If armor is designed intelligently this time around (for example, not throwing random CHR on EVERYTHING), the *need* for gear swapping will be eliminated.

It's not like suddenly you wouldn't have any goals to strive for just because you don't have to swap in all the possible STR gear from level 10-75 for every ws.

Sadly, though, it will all be on SE how they address these two issues:

1. If gear swapping mid-battle will be allowable under the game rules
2. If it is, then how necessary is that gear swapping because armor progression and design is lackluster (or downright dumbass - still looking at you random CHR) and we *need* to min-max during a battle
#46Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 5:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Of course, but then there aren't as many possibilities.
#47 Jun 26 2009 at 5:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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You are assuming that they are going to make the same mistakes that they made with XI, in which a piece you get at 34 trumps most level 75 gear, and that's why I qualified my statements with "intelligent design". That starts at level 1 and goes all the way up to level cap, and this time they would need to seriously peer into the future and stop with the "break the game" excuse for everything that they didn't foresee.

Eliminating mid-battle swaps won't eliminate the desire to perform better, it would just change the viewpoint on performance.
#48Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 5:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not, actually. I'm fairly sure that the gear progression will actually be vertical up to level cap and then become horizontal like in XI, which would make for a much healthier endgame.
#49The One and Only Deadgye, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 6:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Gear swapping > No gear swapping.
#50 Jun 26 2009 at 6:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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But the problem with XI is that in a lot of cases it's *not* vertical. There are completely broken pieces for their level in the game, and then you get to end game and look around and say wow, ok there isn't a whole lot for me.

Maybe if they made skill the determining factor instead of gear stats then we will see a better system overall. Then in end game we'd be fighting not for individual gear pieces, but for stat increasing items that we could then apply to the skill of our choice based on what our job is. We are far too gear-centric in FFXI and it would be nice to break away from that and focus more on character development absent of gear.

I mean, we are also going on the assumption that character progression will be linear like it is in FFXI, where every SAM is getting the exact same traits and JAs at the same exact level no matter what. If they introduce a system where you can specialize in different ways of playing Samurai based on your choices and actions in the game, then you *will* be looking at different gear sets depending on how you play the job.

As I said, though, it all hinges on how SE designed the system this time around.
#51 Jun 26 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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If they did that, then the main problem of not having gear swaps would be solved. Works for me.
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