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#52HocusP, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 8:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm so sick of people bringing realism in to defend their point, but in actuality 90%+ of the game is in no way realistic. I could use the same arguement vs swapping your weapon in mid fight, since I do believe in real life you cannot switch and then magically a new weapon appears in your hand. So the whole arguement is pointless, now there are realistic stuff about an MMo as in economy and other things. If you can relate to a tarutaru casting magic then great to you, or most things then more power to you. The realism point is a pointless statement, because anything you want in the game I bet you could kill out with a realism point.
#53 Jun 26 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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HocusP wrote:
I'm so sick of people bringing realism in to defend their point, but in actuality 90%+ of the game is in no way realistic.

I think realism is a pretty poor argument in this case, but your point is completely wrong.

Fictional stories have internal realism.

In Star Trek it is realistic for Kirk, Picard, or whoever to transport onto a planet appearing out of thin air. The Star Trek universe has established this is possible within their fictional setting and they are consistent about people being able to do this. Simply because it is unrealistic in terms of our reality doesn't make it unrealistic in teh setting of Star Trek. What is unrealistic would be the Enterprise taking on the entire Borg collective and winning, because the Star Trek universe has established that such feats are impossible.

Whenever someone points out something unrealistic in a fantasy or scifi setting I'm tired of hearing some unthinking person stating "LOL, but they cast magic which is unrealistic!"
#54 Jun 26 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree with much of what Torrence said on principle, for starters.

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It sounds good, but I'm still quite lost as to how you could develop the endgame around it (with horizontal progression)?


Well, I actually thought that went without saying. Instead of constantly trying to get new gear, you're trying to get these grid pieces that change your stats in the exact same way that gear does now.

In other words, the absolute least they can do is make it so that "gear swaps" are not gear swaps, but stat swaps. Gear swaps are borderline abusing the system in a game in which like any other, the initial expectation was that you'd wear the same gear throughout a battle. It became a part of gameplay pretty purely by accident. The least they could do is make it more overtly intentional.

It's the exact same gameplay, just without the ridiculous magical gear changing mid battle.

But once again that is just making superficial changes to FFXI's system.

Let me try to put it this way. As a gameplay aspect, it's not unlike, I don't know, a card game. You have these 16 slots, and each of them hold specific types of cards. Different combat situations make different card configurations preferable. Sometimes you want all STR cards, sometimes you want all HP cards, but usually there's a certain balance you want to strike between all your different stats.

So it should be easy to see how a system like gear swapping can be implemented in FFXIV without the actual gear swapping, and not only that, but it can be expanded on -greatly-. This "grid" could have 100 slots, and these "cards" could have not only a plethora of effects, but also have effects based on which cards they were next to, and so forth.

And this is just one of many ways in which FFXIV can improve upon endgame strategy and development without using the same system as FFXI.

Now personally, I don't think character progression is -that- important. I know it is for most people, but for me it's about personal progression. It's about having fun with the character I've made (even if I'm 100% finished making it and will be for a very long time), and improving myself as a player.

Think of all the people at endgame who spent hundreds of hours trying to make their character better by getting gear that was a couple of stat points better than what they already had. Now think about by how much many of them would have been better players if they had instead spent more time learning things about the game itself, like becoming familiar with zones, which mobs aggro to what, how to get to important places, and learning the best ways to fight different mobs (to name a few). And frankly, that stuff wasn't as important as it should have been in FFXI by a long shot, but it was still more important to always have silent oils and decent food on hand than to replace your Hauby with a +1.

Edit:
Allegory is correct on his point about realism. When people say realism they're referring to the canon of the game. It's not about making it consistent with real life, but making it consistent with the game's world. You never saw NPCs blinking out their gear swaps in cutscenes. Gearswapping was never intended to be a part of the FFXI world, and its addition broke from the realism within that world.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 9:46am by Kachi
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#55 Jun 26 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedHobbit wrote:
I too would like to see gear swapping go away. Besides the realism part, gear swapping also takes more inventory space, reduces the strategic nature of gear choices, and reduces the effectiveness of negative stats on armor.

If gear swapping stays, I at least want to see it no longer effect targeting and remove the blink. There is no reason that the graphics can't just instantly change into the new armor once the system is ready instead of being invisible for 1-2 seconds. There is absolutely no reason to lose target lock due to armor changes. There is very little more frustrating then target player, hit cure V macro, see Redhobbit starts casting Cure V on Redhobbit just because they changed gear at an inopportune time. It's very annoying and there is absolutely no reason for it. I've even skipped over healing people occasionally that constantly swap gear just because it was so annoying to target them.


This.

I lost count of how many times my Cure III (on Bard) never made it through, because the target decided to swap out gear while I was targeting them. How bloody annoying it was.
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#56 Jun 26 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Default
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I understand it now Kachi, thanks for the in depth explanation.

I do hope that SE would implement something like this, to make those who don't want gear swaps back (majority it seems) and without ******** up the endgame. Too bad they've most likely decided if they're gonna keep the system or not already, so nothing we can do I guess.
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#57HocusP, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 9:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This would only be correct if the people that were saying that it was unrealistic was referencing to the FF universe. Instead they are usually referring to its unrealistic in real life, which then becomes a moot point because everything is. What is so unrealistic about switching what you wear in mid fight, in the FF universe setting. Weapons magically appearing mid fight, as you change is the samething, just with less depth then all the gear you wear.
#58ScorpionEx, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 9:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'd rather have the option switch gear and maximise certain actions, and give my job the ability to do things it's not exactly amazing in.
#59 Jun 26 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
This would only be correct if the people that were saying that it was unrealistic was referencing to the FF universe. Instead they are usually referring to its unrealistic in real life, which then becomes a moot point because everything is.


Spock still puts his pants on one leg at a time.

I'll tell you why I don't want to switch gear every 4-10 seconds. I don't want to blink out of existence every macro. I don't want to look like a clown every third macro. I don't want everyone around me to be winking on and off like fireflys.

The new game may not tie appearance to gear, but **** was it annoying in XI to notice people blinking in and out.
#60 Jun 26 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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HocusP wrote:
This would only be correct if the people that were saying that it was unrealistic was referencing to the FF universe.

They are.
HocusP wrote:
Instead they are usually referring to its unrealistic in real life

Not they aren't.
HocusP wrote:
What is so unrealistic about switching what you wear in mid fight, in the FF universe setting.

Because people in the FFXI universe don't have the ability to flash invisible for a second and reappear with a completely different set of armor on. There is no spell that allows them to do that. Nowhere does any npc or any part of the story reference the ability of characters to do this, because it isn't supposed to happen.
#61HocusP, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 10:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes it was overly annoying, had smn,sch,brd,blm,war at 75, and it was annoying on smn going to heal and he/she has changed gear. This could easily be stoped, you shouldn't have to dissappear or lose target when you switch gear.
#62 Jun 26 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not surprisingly, FFXI, like many fantasies, borrows a lot of aspects from reality and alters them. But nowhere in Vanadiel is there any explanation for why gear can be magically blinked in and out of existence. Nor does it make sense in any way whatsoever to do so midbattle.

There's no common sense explanation, and there's no in-world explanation. Generally this would be referred to as a plot hole. And it's a sure way to break suspension of disbelief, which is what allows us to enjoy fantasy.

It makes the game feel like a video game rather than an immersive experience. It would be like watching a movie and being able to see the mics, and cameramen in the background. Movies generally try very hard to hide that stuff for a reason.

And besides which, gear swapping adds nothing to the game that can't be done better, as I've already explained at length.

@Hyanmen; no problem. Happy to do it.


Edited, Jun 26th 2009 11:19am by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63Banggugyangu, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 10:59 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) see above.
#64HocusP, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 11:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Nowhere in the game does it say why you shouldn't be able to switch gear either. An MMO doesn't have to explain to you how to play the game, you go out and you play on your own. If gear swaps is your thing you do it and if its not you don't waste your time making the macros, its simple. The common sense explanation is it makes your ability or effect better. If the company is going to encourage gear swapping then that is explanation enough that they didn't mind it. Its easy to stop and SE has never said once that it was an abuse of mechanics, better yet they encouraged it. Stopping gear swaps would only hurt melee, since in the ffxi system mages wasn't engauged anyway, so mages should be able to min/max but not melee (unless an ballista like penalty was put in, which is easy to do). Making stuff like elemental staffs and equipment is highly encouraging gear swapping, and I never heard of developers that encourage the use of an "abuse of mechanics".
#65 Jun 26 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
I'm not, actually. I'm fairly sure that the gear progression will actually be vertical up to level cap and then become horizontal like in XI, which would make for a much healthier endgame.


You seem to be laboring under the idea that horizontal gear progression requires gear swapping; it doesn't. Diverse encounter design will naturally encourage horizontal progression regardless of whether or not swapping in battle is allowed.

Never mind the fact the horizontal gear progression is simply not sustainable; horizontal progression space is inherently constrained by the game mechanics, whereas vertical progression is constrained only by data size. The inevitable result of eliminating vertical progression is stagnation and death, not vitality.
#66 Jun 26 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Never mind the fact the horizontal gear progression is simply not sustainable; horizontal progression space is inherently constrained by the game mechanics, whereas vertical progression is constrained only by data size. The inevitable result of eliminating vertical progression is stagnation and death, not vitality.


I don't see how this applies to FFXI? The horizontal progression I mean is the one FFXI has.. which is a slightly vertical progression but still mainly horizontal.
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#67 Jun 26 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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The biggest problem with FFXI was items were not governed by any rules.

How can leaping boots be so much better than anything available until level 75. In some cases even at 75 there is nothing better.

Is it right for a level 7 character to have the same powerful equipment as a 75?

A solution for the gear swapping issue would be to actually have items governed by rules this time. Each level is allowed a certain amount of item budget. Each stat takes some of the budget, you cannot over budget. Problem solved.

SE tried to fake item budgets with sets like hectacomb and adamant and koeing sets. They had massive disadvantages in stats that are not 'useful' for the role of the class wearing it so that they can make a lvl 75 item better than other 75 items.

These items made sense, but how can other items like leaping boots make sense?

I am certain this time around, SE will have itemization planned out rather than just randomly assigning stats.

Looking at a lot of the gear in FFFXI, it was not very intelligently designed.
#68 Jun 26 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly feel the need to stop posting here some times. I respect that there are opinions which differ from my own, or from the majority vote. However, some people can not seem to understand some concepts. For example FFXIV is not FFXI, and will most likely not use all the same rules. People saying things like "End game will be less efficient without gear swaps"? Um, Excuse me? I'm glad you know how FFXIV end game will work, being as it's not even out yet, but I'm sure they can make it plenty efficient and better designed without the need to change gear every few seconds. It's troublesome, it's not lazy, for the last time. People are putting hundreds of hours into a MMO, and people will end up progressing, earning skill, pushing themselves to new limits. I think just because they want the game to be -designed- to where you do not have to change every piece of your gear to a completely different set every few seconds constitutes them as lazy.

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You don't "have" to use gear swaps, but why take them away from those of us who want them?


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My idea of "fun" is NOT wasting 4-5 hours of my day gaining maybe 1 level. If it means I have to add a few extra lines to each of my macros to make that task go by a little faster, you better believe I'll do it. At the same time, because this is a multi-player game, if I'm in a party with someone who abides by the "gear swaps are too difficult" lifestyle, I'll remove them or myself *depending on who the leader of the PT is* simply because I feel that their laziness is effecting my efficiency. If you want to argue that "some EXP is better than none", I'll argue that I don't sit doing nothing while I'm seeking for a PT. If I'm not doing something productive on the game during those times, I'm doing something IRL that's productive *or entertaining* while I wait to hear the little chime that I've received a /tell. When it comes to end-game situations, there's much to lose via "creativity" that is less likely to be lost via "efficiency". If I spend 4 hours camping a HNM, the last thing I expect to happen is we wipe and lose claim because someone wanted to be creative.


Thank you for pointing out so many flaws with FFXI. Flaws the developers have admitted to themselves, flaws that people have been sick of for years, and have lead to many many people quitting, and flaws that are the reason square enix says things like "We want FFXIV to be more casual, and more about character growth, instead of just grinding".

Banggugyangu wrote:

Creativity rarely walks alongside efficiency. In a game where the longest, most arduous task is grinding levels from 1-75, I will take efficiency before creativity any day.


And thank you for pointing out one of the biggest fundamental flaws of FFXI. Also, thank you for the assumption that FFXIV = FFXI. I think people have wanted for a long, long time, to be able to be more "Creative" in things, and less about just "THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO KILL X MOB IN Z TIME".

Some people don't seem to get it. They defy logic, they do not listen to the interviews, they do not understand the progression and way things are going. I don't know, but I try hard to view others opinions respectfully, so I'll say this.

FFXIV according to the developers, popular demand, common sense, interviews, and popular opinion, is going to be a game that is more "Casual" than FFXI. This means it will require less time and work, and will be more about having fun without so many time constraints. Square Enix has admitted to this by saying they want it to not take up so much time, that people can play both FFXI and FFXIV, as stated in the Dengaki interview. Taking less time means more than simply fast EXP, or shorter end game events. Making a game more casual, includes many new systems that will need to be implemented and differ from FFXI's systems.

Square Enix will continue supporting FFXI, and personally I will most likely continue playing it. However FFXIV is something that they want to do a lot differently than FFXI, so if anyone is wanting FFXI-2 they are probably going to be very disappointed. I'm sure it will have that same wonderful final fantasy feel, but it will be a very different game in many ways. Square Enix isn't going to spend this kind of money and effort, recreating a game that they already see is flawed in many ways. They are going to expand on the good things, and create new systems to overcome all the flaws of FFXI.

And to address the macro swapping, I'm sorry that not everyone wants to spend hours creating scripts and macro's that change different pieces of gear out for every action. Once again, that is not laziness, it's simply not wanting to put every single piece of the most maximum gear possible in the right slot for the right action. It over complicates things. Things do not need to be overly complicated to be fun, and can still have much customization and complexity to them otherwise. Being able to be creative about what armor you wear is indeed what Square Enix intended for FFXI, you can see it on the armor stats themselves. They wanted people to be roundly versed, but people ended up going overboard with putting a different maximized piece in for every action.

Once again, there are many different types of gear you could have, for many different situations. There is much much room for progression. And I think even swapping gear between battles or on the field is just fine. Just not while during the fight.

I won't even go into the realism argument, many others have already argued that for me, and if you cannot see the point by now I feel sorry for you. Personally, watching 18 characters turn invisible every few seconds and reappear in a new set of armor, or if they perfected on it, and suddenly in a flash, people went from wearing a complete set of [this] armor to a set of [that] armor, and back again, over and over, it looks absolutely silly, and takes away from the very feel of the game itself.


Edited, Jun 26th 2009 5:41pm by EndlessJourney
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#69HocusP, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 4:59 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This is not even anywhere near exactly true. Yes the interviews said "a bit more casual", yes they want you to keep playing both games, that is the true part. The thing is, if you ask what does "a bit more casual" mean to many people, you will get many different answers. A bit more casual, does not mean everything thought of as "casual" will be implemented. It also doesn't mean that there will be no "hardcore" elements to the game at all. You know as much as we do, using there little bit of interviews and saying "many new systems need to be implemented" for it to be "a bit more casual" is simply not true. Also making the game less of a grind (as they stated), makes the game more casual, that doesn't mean gear swapping has to be taking out for the game to be "casual" either.
#70 Jun 26 2009 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
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Don't generalize too readily. You can still have a FFXI-2 without as much gear swapping and more freedom to create your own builds. Creativity CAN walk along efficiency. You can still have the depth that FFXI players demand without falling into a min-max rut.

I just want the game to have slightly more casual elements for the sake of my limited time schedule, not dumbed down so teenagers can understand it.


As for horizontal and vertical progression, I think horizontal really is the way to go.

If there was one thing that ****** everyone off about WoW, it's that EVERYTHING, and I mean absolutely everything you do will mean nothing when the next expansion rolls along. All of your gear will be worthless. All of your stuff will be worthless. Any time you invested is simply wasted.

They don't have to design or balance equipment stats well because the next expansion, they can just increase all stats by 1.5x.

Can a person really say the same for XI?
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#71Banggugyangu, Posted: Jun 26 2009 at 6:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Don't assume that I was posting any speculation about FFXIV whatsoever. My statements were about FFXI 100%.
#72 Jun 27 2009 at 1:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nah, FFXIV will definitely be significantly more casual than XI. Really, at this point calling it speculation is just erring on the cautious side. They could scarcely be less subtle about it.

Quote:
Nowhere in the game does it say why you shouldn't be able to switch gear either. An MMO doesn't have to explain to you how to play the game, you go out and you play on your own. If gear swaps is your thing you do it and if its not you don't waste your time making the macros, its simple. The common sense explanation is it makes your ability or effect better. If the company is going to encourage gear swapping then that is explanation enough that they didn't mind it. Its easy to stop and SE has never said once that it was an abuse of mechanics, better yet they encouraged it. Stopping gear swaps would only hurt melee, since in the ffxi system mages wasn't engauged anyway, so mages should be able to min/max but not melee (unless an ballista like penalty was put in, which is easy to do). Making stuff like elemental staffs and equipment is highly encouraging gear swapping, and I never heard of developers that encourage the use of an "abuse of mechanics".


Does it make sense to take off all your armor in the middle of a fight and switch into new armor to make yourself more efficient? No. That is what is meant by a common sense explanation. Your explanation that it makes your ability or effect better is the -opposite- of common sense. Changing clothes in the middle of a fight does not have a common sense explanation, and it is not explained in any way in the story (like dress spheres). In an interview long ago, SE even said that they didn't intend for people to do it, even though they were ok with it.

So I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong on this. You can try to equivocate your point with semantic tricks, but you're not going to fool anyone with that kind of argument.

But really all that needs to be said is that encouraging gearswapping when I have already proposed a better alternative to the same system is a waste of time.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#73HocusP, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 5:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Does it make sense that each ability has a formula, and since FFXI formula for damage was stat based, then it does make sense to switch in the most stats for that particular ability. The only way it doesn't make sense is in the realism case, and we have been over that.
#74 Jun 27 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Good
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No, that just shows that you didn't bother to read it. I'm not going to quote it for you because it spans over two large posts or so.

If you're not going to read it, fine. But I already went pretty far out of my way to explain it the first time. I'm not going further still for you, who by my recollection has continually antagonized my ideas and arguments while making minimal effort to grasp their merit. If you spent half as much time reflecting on what people said before you argued with them, you might save yourself the trouble of arguing with them at all.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75HocusP, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 8:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I have read this entire thread, I just didn't see an "better alternative" in my opinion. I read and listen to everybody ideas, but I don't think you do all that well. The thing is people like gear swapping and some people don't thats why its an opinion, there are pros to gear swapping (both for the individual and SE the company), and the only con I have really seen was realism (which once again we have went over).
#76 Jun 27 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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If you really did read it, then you have the reading comprehension of a manatee. Otherwise you would have seen how SE could take the EXACT SAME game elements that gear swapping allows and subtract the process of actually swapping gear to do it. They could even do it in FFXI with relatively minor changes and it would have virtually no effect on gameplay (aside from making players happier).

Or maybe you got all that, but somehow still don't think that it's a better system, then what can I say?... You're either like the only person who feels that way, you're outright lying because you can't admit your own mistakes, or you really should just keep playing FFXI and forget all about XIV.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#77 Jun 27 2009 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I want gear swaps in FFXIV. I'm simply saying that if they're in it, you better believe I'll expect you to use them when you party with me. The chances of ANY MMO company making a single gear set that's supreme for all situations are close to nil. I, being an efficiency *****, will do everything to maximize everything I'm doing.


I don't suppose you play wow do you? I'm against gear swapping in a party outside of a specific gear that allows faster regeneration of mp, hp and the like outside of combat. Battle prep gear and gear for battle can be separated and swapped out but at the same time, having 3 sets of gear for different attacks in game isn't efficient in my opinion. If they allow gear swapping in FFXIV, that doesn't mean the itemization will be the same as FFXI. Point being, in FFXI almost all items had some restrictions for using it. It was a retarded system that created the problem of switching gear out every other attack, or other situation. It is my hope that they see the problem this type of itemization caused and will create a broader range of gear that you can use and wont need to change gear so frequently or if at all.

#78 Jun 27 2009 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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One more thing, if they allow me to solo at a relatively same pace as others in a party. Guess which i'm going to do? If you think that your decision to kick someone out of a party because he doesn't carry gear to swap out like you will sway someone in FFXIV, you're sadly mistaken. :P
#79 Jun 27 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Default
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zeroskillkyrios wrote:
One more thing, if they allow me to solo at a relatively same pace as others in a party. Guess which i'm going to do? If you think that your decision to kick someone out of a party because he doesn't carry gear to swap out like you will sway someone in FFXIV, you're sadly mistaken. :P


Haha, I don’t think you would be alone, usually 95% of all players will choose to play solo if the xp-growth/hour ratio is 75% or higher than in a party.
#80HocusP, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 10:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Same stupid remark, get it through your head the game is being made by the same people that encouraged gear swapping, and didn't take it out of a game. This doesn't mean that it will be in the new game, but it does make it likely that some things from ffxi will be in the game. No I don't see it as being a better system, I see that as people will have guides for setup for each boss, then you use that setup the whole fight. Instead of just using 1 setup, you can switch inbetween battles to make it that more interesting. Theres a few facts that you always skip over so I will restate some.
#81Banggugyangu, Posted: Jul 01 2009 at 9:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I played WoW and didn't like it. Don't see why that's relevant though.
#82 Jul 01 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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I can't understand why you're against gear swapping to maximize potency and efficiency in some areas, but not when it comes to MP and HP regeneration. Btw, people don't gear swap because gear comes with restrictions on it. I'm pretty sure the last thing people are concerned about when they put that empress hairpin on is the -15 HP. I would imagine that the -HP on assault jerkin doesn't ever even cross anyone's mind. They gear swap because every single piece of gear in the entire game is 100% situational. NOTHING is a 1 size fits all piece of gear.



I know how to play the game, and I know why gear swapping exists. To say its not because of restrictions is only half true, people swap out gear if they are pulling and do not want movement restrictions in their gear to slow them down. What about a severe restriction to one particular stat like -15 vit? % of slow on the gear but massive stats to make up for it. This gear is swapped in and out because they've made it only useful in certain situations. Meaning if you had any of that gear on for a long period of time, you wouldn't be effective. I get that, but why is it that way to begin with?


Now for your Example with THF, that is a player base conception of what is the best way to max out your potential. Its not because of restrictions at all. If a THF past 60 wants to use SATA +WS or just SATA over and over together, then it wouldn't be beneficial to have only all of 1 stat. The problem with this is itemization again. Example: Make it so that gear you can select is something similar to: Either +11agi or +11 Dex for say boot equip, and a third option +7 or +8 to both agi and dex. You could either make all of you gear one of the different stats, including some vit or str somewhere else, Or all Dex and agi combined, so there is choice, and if you choose to swap out any given moment you can, or you can be balanced and produce steady numbers instead of a burst for one situation.
#83 Jul 01 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I played WoW and didn't like it. Don't see why that's relevant though.


I played WoW and I have to say it is relevant because we are talking about gear swaps and the fact that nothing (in your opinion) can be tailor made to fulfill all roles. Wow does this on a daily basis, even to the point where all gear for one class is specific to the stats they only care about, and combine several different stats on one piece of gear. Doesn't this sound logical? Think about it. There are several job only pieces in FFXI, like artifact gear. The original gear had many different stats that had no relation to anything that job needed it for, to top it off, it gave minute amounts. Meaning you will most likely only use some of the gear or none and was replaced pretty quickly. The only benefit it served was that it looked good. Now if you will, imagine if the armor for say Warrior looked like: head piece, +6 attack 3 str 4 vit 3 agi +15 hp and some defense along with a stat specific to warrior such as enhanced berserk or whatever. and everything else was pretty similar but changing the stats up. Chest piece +15 attack +6 str +10 acc +15 hp and defense. etc. etc. All these stats are what a warrior would use and want. No need to add negatives, no need to add mnd int chr mp restore etc.

Naturally sets will get better as you move along, but that doesn't mean an important set should be overlooked, replaced as soon as you get it or soon after and what not.

#84 Jul 01 2009 at 12:22 PM Rating: Default
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You're still arguing against gear swaps with an idea of some hypothetical perfect world *no pun intended on the game perfect world* that doesn't exist.

I stopped WoW back when 50 was the cap, so I can't say for certain, but I'm sure there are specialized pieces of equipment that, for a certain situation, fit that situation better than any "well-rounded" pieces can. If there's a limitation placed on whether or not one can swap those pieces around at will, then that's that. If not, however, potency WILL be increased by using the most effective piece for the specialized situation.

I'll state this again. There is not a single "1 size fits all" piece of equipment in all of FFXI. It doesn't exist. Arguing against gear swaps saying that "they should have made it like this" is a moot point because they didn't. Argute Loafers are a prime example that SE doesn't have any idea wtf they're doing with their own game, by placing healing magic skill on relic gear for a job who can cap his highest cure while being naked.

Like I said before, I have no rebuttal against SE making FFXIV sans gear swapping. I have strong doubts that even in FFXIV there will be well rounded gear that will trump all situational pieces, however. If by chance gear swapping is allowed, and situational remains better than well-rounded, then gear swapping should be used.
#85 Jul 01 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:

You're still arguing against gear swaps with an idea of some hypothetical perfect world *no pun intended on the game perfect world* that doesn't exist.

I stopped WoW back when 50 was the cap, so I can't say for certain, but I'm sure there are specialized pieces of equipment that, for a certain situation, fit that situation better than any "well-rounded" pieces can. If there's a limitation placed on whether or not one can swap those pieces around at will, then that's that. If not, however, potency WILL be increased by using the most effective piece for the specialized situation.

I'll state this again. There is not a single "1 size fits all" piece of equipment in all of FFXI. It doesn't exist. Arguing against gear swaps saying that "they should have made it like this" is a moot point because they didn't. Argute Loafers are a prime example that SE doesn't have any idea wtf they're doing with their own game, by placing healing magic skill on relic gear for a job who can cap his highest cure while being naked.

Like I said before, I have no rebuttal against SE making FFXIV sans gear swapping. I have strong doubts that even in FFXIV there will be well rounded gear that will trump all situational pieces, however. If by chance gear swapping is allowed, and situational remains better than well-rounded, then gear swapping should be used.


There is some disconnect I think between different peoples' definition of *situational*. Nobody is really saying that there won't be or shouldn't be situational gear, or that everyone should always have a *well-rounded* set. I'll give a couple examples of what situational means to me:

1. You need to focus on healing your group, you bring a set that enhances your healing..
2. You need to focus on weakening the monster: you bring a set that enhances enfeebling instead.
3. And finally, you need to focus on beating the **** out of the monster, you guessed it: nuking.

What XI does is essentially take the specialization out of every job by allowing us to carry all three sets, and change multiple times during a battle. Situational gear has been redefined in XI to not mean you decide on what role you are playing for the given battle and wear an appropriate set (which is the very definition of situational), it now means you carry sets for every action you could possibly perform.

The definition of *situational* has been pretty much thrown out. We need to start recognizing XI gear swaps for what they are, which is not so much *situational* as *never having a weakness*. In every game since the very start, FF has had this Strength/Weakness balance. In XI, because of their oversight, that balance does not exist. We don't have weaknesses, really. We put on a haste/acc set for TP, and a STR set for WS, or we put on the hMP set for resting, stack on the INT for nuking, and etc. We have effectively eliminated any weakness that may have offset the great stats that gear has to offer, and that's a big reason they have to be careful on what they add.

No, I hope that they toss out the gear swaps in the next game, because it really hasn't made anyone more skilled if you think about it. It's just made us better at hitting macros. The real skill is being able to work together as a team to compensate for each other's weaknesses. Hard to do that when nobody really has any.
#86 Jul 01 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I dont see why people cling so adamantly to the concept of constant gear-swap. The whole "it can improve your performance" is relative. Stop describing gear-swapping capability as a necessity. If gear swapping is indeed removed (or penalized) in FFXIV, that won't stop people from trying to maximize their statistics and abilities. Instead, players will have to be more strategic and creative with their gear selection. The only gear that I can believe should be interchangeable is weapons, but there should be a penalty associated with switching mid-fight (such as TP loss).

Once again gear-swapping isn't necessary to maximize performance. If it isn't an available gameplay trait, players will still have a paramount/best build design (only instead of involving 8 sets of armor, there will be but 1)
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#87 Jul 01 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I stopped WoW back when 50 was the cap ...


You stopped 10 levels too soon :(

Quote:
I can't say for certain, but I'm sure there are specialized pieces of equipment that, for a certain situation, fit that situation better than any "well-rounded" pieces can. If there's a limitation placed on whether or not one can swap those pieces around at will, then that's that. If not, however, potency WILL be increased by using the most effective piece for the specialized situation.


Assuming the game has stats that are specialized, which in WoW for the most part was not the case.
#88 Jul 01 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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Why would we even need a one size fit all piece of gear? That's nearly as bad as gear swapping. FFXI's whole system basically forces gear swapping onto you. From the combat skill system, to the lack of class customization. Games like WoW have a talent tree which let's classes specialize in different areas. I mean it's a novel thing that you have to choose between being a tanking warrior and a damage warrior. Games like Ragnarok Online actually let you choose your stat progression, and what skills you learn. You want to be a crit sin or a dagger sin? You can't be both.

Really FFXI gave us one way to play each class. Yes you can change around sub jobs, but the favorite subs were set a long time ago. Yes in WoW and RO there are preferred specs for different situations, but none of them take preference at all times.
#89 Jul 01 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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I'm all for getting elite sets of gear but its kind of annoying to have to continuously make long *** macros for gear. I don't even have room for the gear in some of my macros and making 2 macros doesn't work because I usually need to act fast and skip the first gear macro. If they keep gear swapping in then macros need to be a lot longer and more inventory space.
#90Banggugyangu, Posted: Jul 01 2009 at 1:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's not "relative". It's a hard fact. Using the most specialized gear for each situation you're in will increase your performance in FFXI.
#91 Jul 01 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It's not "relative". It's a hard fact. Using the most specialized gear for each situation you're in will increase your performance in FFXI.

um, yes it is. If gear-swapping is disabled in FFXIV, the entire point is moot. Single, best overall equipment will replace specialized gearswapping to optimize performance. I'm not talking about FFXI, i'm talking about the potential for FFXIV.
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#92 Jul 01 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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It is relative, insomuch that gear swapping as it relates to your efficiency has a dubious effect in, well...most everything but FFXI. gear Swapping is supposed to be a novelty, but in FFXI it's a necessity. This is not indicative of the chosen few reaching an upper eschelon of efficiency, in the sheer abundance and demand, it's a knee jerk reaction of the player base to design errors and poorly implemented mechanics.

If the Armor Mechanics are working properly;
Gear swapping yields a minor result whose impact is noticeable yet debatable versus the extra bag space (ie; Something like Elemental Staves should never exist). You have a reasonable expectation of efficiency in all facets of your abilities with a single set of armor as is appropriate for your level and requires an approachable yet challenging effort to obtain. This is efficiency as defined not by the possible (VTs), which is negligible, but by the demands of the Player Base's Status Quo (ITs). Armors are multifaceted (gear that focuses on raising multiple statistics a little instead of one statistic alot), and often yield benefits to multiple aspects of multiple classes. There are very few pieces of armor that only serve to benefit a single class. With the exception of Special Sets, there is no armor that only serves to benefit a single ability of a single class. Armor variation is achieved by level, armor type, class using the armor, rarity, and godhelpus customization; not specific utility within the span of a battle. Negative statistics are used sparingly, if at all. Armors that serve no purpose or whose purposes have been undermined (which is easy when the itemization is overly specific) are minimized. "Situational Armor" is defined by events occurring in the world at large with some degree of rarity, not by different abilities being used constantly.

Whether or not you can swap gear is of no consequence. The benefits of swapping are minimized because multifaceted and generalized itemization means there's less gear to swap into that caters to a specific action. But should you decide, the benefit still exists. If Armor Mechanics are working properly, Gear Swapping is exactly the rare and occasional cherry-on-top it should be.


Edited, Jul 1st 2009 10:21pm by Zemzelette
#93 Jul 01 2009 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Gear swapping is ridiculous man. It should not be allowed during battle. If you need some sort of resistance, you should rely on spells. I could understand a weapon or a shield but anything else seems rather off.
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#94 Jul 02 2009 at 4:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Agreed!

Although I was guilty of carrying countless gear sets, and being a hard core gear swapper, I was never really a fan of the system and thought the same way the OP did. I did it because it was pretty much necessary, and to some degree expected of you from a large number of the player base.

I mean we get penalised for swapping our weapons mid fights (loss of TP), yet we can happily get changed into a whole new suit of armour whilst a big ugly beasty is biting off our leg without any problem.

I can understand why they imposed the penalty on weapon swapping (Sams TP'ing with there Soboro, and then swapping to their Hagun to WS for example), but still I always thought that the armour swaps were a little cheesy. I much prefer the idea of anticipating what kind of set up you will need before a fight, preparing in advance, and then sticking with your choice until the end (e.g equiping that fire resistant helm before you go into a battle with Ifrit).

I guess it comes down to personal preference, but after so many missed cures due to constantly blinking DDs my preference is drop the gear swaps! I swear I'm surprised I've not suffered an epileptic fit watching some of the excessive blinkers out there!

I wouldnt mind it so much if their was a little realism to it, if anyone has had a go at FFXIs Brenner, gearswapping actually incurs a penalty there, you pretty much become stun locked for a certain amount of seconds if you swap your equipments. I've heard people ***** about it, but I loved it XD


Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 1:13pm by GenryuOfBahamut
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#95 Jul 02 2009 at 5:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
You can say it's a bother all you want, but if you're just playing the game for fun you don't have to do it.


I agree, personally I'm a fan of the "Its my £7/month I'll play my game how I want" motto.

However the famous counter argument "But its your parties £42" holds a lot of sway in a game thats as team orientated as FFXI. I dont want to stereotype all of the FFXI community, but gear swapping has become the norm, as others have said its pretty much expected by a lot of the player base, and those who dont conform are 9 times out of 10 treated as leppers.

I've personally witnessed a player booted from a EG Linkshell because it turned out he didnt have multiple gear sets for all his jobs. I've seen DD's kicked from parties because they only used one set of equipment, and didnt carry a seperate TP and WS set.

I've seen people slagged off behind their backs in LS chat because of their gear sets, and finally I've seen people made fun of on these very forums all for the same reasons.

But thats just FFXI and what I've come to expect, and to quote you again "but if you're just playing the game for fun you don't have to do it" unfortunately it just doesnt work like that, to many people are pressured into conforming to the norm by the end.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 9:52am by JuicyBoogers
#96 Jul 02 2009 at 6:33 AM Rating: Default
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Bardalicious wrote:
Quote:
It's not "relative". It's a hard fact. Using the most specialized gear for each situation you're in will increase your performance in FFXI.

um, yes it is. If gear-swapping is disabled in FFXIV, the entire point is moot. Single, best overall equipment will replace specialized gearswapping to optimize performance. I'm not talking about FFXI, i'm talking about the potential for FFXIV.


Re-read my earlier posts.... I stated before that I'm not referring to FFXIV at all. I'm speaking based on FFXI simply because.... that's all we have to go by atm. Speaking of how FFXIV will be is stupid, simply because you don't know. A topic like this being solely centered on FFXIV will have no relative information relayed in it. Everyone stating that they dislike gear swapping is basing it on his/her opinion of it in FFXI. The only real debate here is technically about FFXI. It seems that the devs are planning to completely revamp the entire MMO model to the point that we truthfully can't even begin to imagine how things are going to work.

Also.... reread what you just quoted of me. I even state in that post that I'm speaking solely about FFXI.
#97The One and Only Deadgye, Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 7:32 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Restating my opinion again, weee:
#98 Jul 02 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Default
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
but it also makes the economy better and it lets equipment stay useful for longer.


that's a really good point.
#99 Jul 02 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Your gear will always become inconsequential, such is the price of progress.

If everything is going as it should, you should get a good few weeks out of gear when your leveling and a good few months at end game. If your keeping gear for something like the span of years, they're either implementing gear that's too powerful at too low a level (Emperor Hairpin), or they're implementing gear that's too powerful period (Elemental Staves), or they're not inventing enough new content to keep a player base interested.

If SE can manage balanced armor mechanics, keeping around old items isn't actually efficient at all.

Of course, I understand your sentiment.
Nobody wants to strive hard for a piece of gear only have it become inconsequential soon after. But having pieces of gear that are so imbalanced they're still useful years later is not good design. On the other hand, the frantic A.D.D. pace at which WoW completely overhauls a player's gear every content patch is not something worthy of emulation either. A sensible approach would be balanced between the two, you should actually get a chance to settle into your armor without withholding content to the point of stagnation or creating ridiculously unbalanced items.

As far as controlling the economy goes, there's far too many other options in a developer's bag of tricks to rely on recycled armor. FFXI's economy is largely this, but that's not the alpha and omega of MMO economies. Look at WoW's economy, it thrives despite the amount of armor that gets recycled is lessened by the heavy reliance on soulbinding (WoW's version of rare/ex).




Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 1:48pm by Zemzelette

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 1:49pm by Zemzelette
#100 Jul 02 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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One set of gear doesn't have to be the BEST gear in the world though. You can have different sets of gear that specializes in different areas but you can't just go removing them mid battle to equip a different piece. That's just ridiculous.

What they could do is avoid making body armor that enhances damage potential. Body armor should focus completely on mitigation. Accessories and the weapon itself should be the items that augment damage.
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#101 Jul 02 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
One set of gear doesn't have to be the BEST gear in the world though. You can have different sets of gear that specializes in different areas but you can't just go removing them mid battle to equip a different piece. That's just ridiculous.

What they could do is avoid making body armor that enhances damage potential. Body armor should focus completely on mitigation. Accessories and the weapon itself should be the items that augment damage.


This would again let the mages max/min (since there not really engauged), and doesn't let the melee min/max which isn't right. SE knew this and encouraged it, (like elemental staffs, unless they thought you would nuke 1 element all fight, they knew it would cause gear swapping) and there are many reasons why it would benefit the players and the developers.

You say make situational gear but not be able to swap mid fight, this is harder then you think. You would have to make gear thats worth even obtaining, for certain situations. For example, you would have to avoid this type of thinking "I don't do that event or ability much, so whocares about that gear", or "i'm not in that situation much so whocares about that gear". Then on top of that you would have to avoid this type of thinking "well its not that much better then this hnm gear I already got, so why would I waste time trying to get it". So in other words it would have to be good enough for the situation that would lore people to want and get it, but not too good because then it would turn into use in all situation gear. Its much easier to add more gear that people want to get because they are put in that situation all the time (being able to switch gear mid fight, puts you in situations more often).

There will still be min/max, and its very hard not to make it for at least one job, where 1 set of gear becomes the best in 99% of the situations. Some jobs might only use 1 ability, 90% of the time, how do you make gear that helps in some fights but not all if they are only using the same ability (like same ws). This is harder then most people think, and gear swapping makes it easier to add tons of gear that are all valuable and worth obtaining.

Gear swapping was never mandatory by SE, if you were bullyed into gear swapping then its kind of your fault. I know people that didn't gear swap and leveled fine to 75, I liked gear swapping so of course I did it. Even if you were kicked from one party, it is still just one party, you can't tell me that every single party would kick you for not gear swapping. You can get kicked for many other things also, this doesn't make them other things mandatory. The community never accepted pup or drg, but people still leveled drg and pup, proving just because the community says something, doesn't make it mandatory.


Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 2:35pm by HocusP
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