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#102 Jul 02 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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You say make situational gear but not be able to swap mid fight, this is harder then you think.


You're only thinking in terms of FFXI. Other games do it quite well. You're also under the assumption that abilities use divergent stats in every game. Again, lots of other games have streamlined abilities and attacks to use just one or two stats for each class.

What I'm hearing you guys say is, I want abilities to use 5 or more different stats so that I don't need to focus on just a few and thereby have to gear swap to maximize my ability. The problem with that notion is that virtually no other game works like FFXI in that regard. So to reiterate, it's less about the gear swapping and more about abilities using a large number of stats (I.e. A Knight ability combining CHA and DEX or something of the sort rather than the ability just going off of VIT and STR the two primary stats for the class).

I personally don't think SE will change with item switching because I believe they've always wanted to have negatives stats on gear to balance it. I believe they want you to make the choice that if you want that uber-attack item you'll have to deal with the evasion penalty (or whatever).

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 12:54pm by baelnic
#103 Jul 02 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Other games do it quite well.


Which?
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#104 Jul 02 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea I would like to know which too, all the people I know (and even some I dont on forums and such), on all kinds of MMOs have the same problem. They all have some kind of complaint on the gear system, which makes me believe their is no perfect way to implement a gear system. There will be many people that complains on any gear system you put in a game. I mean even in WoW (I'm sorry for a WoW comparsion), the most successful MMO to date, the gear system is still an common complaint. I mean its the most successful MMO yet, and they didn't get gear right either (maybe because there is no right way to implement gear), people complain everyday that every update makes gear worthless. So back to the statement, find a MMO that gear is done perfectly and that gear is not a common complaint among the playerbase, because I can't think of any.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 11:03pm by HocusP

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 11:38pm by HocusP
#105 Jul 02 2009 at 7:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Usually, when a game plays it's elemental or status effect resistances right, that acts as it's situational gear. Situational gear is supposed to be a response to an event that occurs in rarity, usually this ends up manifesting as a Boss Fight with an attack or status effect so strong it can't be overpowered and must be defended against. For example, in WoW the fight with Hodir calls for the situational switch-in of Frost resistance gear to counteract the attack Frozen Blows.

Single player games have used Situational Gear in more inventive ways than a simple gear-check boss, that I would love to see explored in an MMO. Such as allowing you to traverse an area you normally couldn't, survive a weather condition and counteract the status effect it applies, or allowing you see and attack a particular mob-type normally naked to the human eye.

FFXI both didn't give elemental resistances a potent enough effect and also was stingy on how much they included on armor. As I've said before, FFXI's armor itemization was uncommonly specific. This means any gear that gave decent enough elemental defenses also neglected to include statistics geared to your efficiency. Poor armor mechanics and game mechanics effectively undermined any practical use in the stat, but that's not the case for other games out there.

As HocusP says, no game out there has made perfect armor mechanics.
Then again, perfection is utterly unattainable in any facet of our lives, so no reasons to expect videogames will be any different. But that doesn't mean we should all just throw our hands up in defeat and use any old hunk of coding to dictate armor and call it a day. FFXI was a great learning experience for SE, naturally they'll take what's ineffective and scrap it, take what effective and improve on it, and create a more intuitive and streamlined product I'm sure we'll all enjoy regardless of swapping gears or not.


Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 12:12am by Zemzelette
#106 Jul 03 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
If you really did read it, then you have the reading comprehension of a manatee.


Did I miss some breaking scientific research where they actually tested the reading comprehension of a manatee? I'm actually of the understanding that a manatee's intelligence and recognition skills are actually fairly high for most mammals. At which point, with proper training I'm sure it could be taught to read small words and sentences. Dolphins have even been taught to speak up to 50 english words used correctly in sentences.
#108 Jul 04 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think gear swapping was ever INTENDED by SE, it just kind of appeared. Remember that XI was original conceived around parties killing weaker mobs faster. It is the players that decided they wanted 200+ exp a kill. And, because of this, gear swapping was actually kinda necessary.

But, gear swapping WAS a strategy, to anyone that says otherwise. You need to create a proper set and you need to know when to switch into that set. That's all it is. "Strategies" don't require you to give something up. In chess, if I checkmate the opponent in 4 turns without losing any pieces, is that not a strategy?

Gear swapping was valid in terms of XI.

But I'm not sure how I feel about it in XIV. On one hand, I remember how it was annoying to have to macro items into everything.

On the other hand, I remember how nice it was to be able to switch out of my mining gear to fight something that aggroed me. Or to equip something different while in combat (not necessarily for gear-swapping, but possibly because I just dinged and am putting on a new helm but already engaged the next target).

If it is done, it needs to be done well. Otherwise, it is safest to not have it.
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#109 Jul 04 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Ohishi wrote:
I'M GOING TO PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE WITH MY WITH MY LEET WEAPON SKILLS!!!!!1111!!! ONE!!!1!1!ELEVEN11!!!!!!2. Just hold on a sec while I change my rings and pants. Hey, where are you going? ARRRRGGGG SOON AS I GET MY PANTS BACK ON YOUR DEAD FOR RUNNING AWAY YOU WEAKLING!!!!!

Gear swaps are ***.


COME BACK HERE YOU FLYING TOUCAN BEAKED BIRD THAT STEALS FOOD MY FROM STOMACH, I"M GOING TO CAST A MAGICAL SPELL ON YOU!!

Final Fantasy is ***.

See, I can do it too.
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#110 Jul 04 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
I don't think gear swapping was ever INTENDED by SE, it just kind of appeared.


I don't understand why people keep saying this. There is a command that was placed in the game at launch of FFXI... it's the /equip command. If SE didn't intend for this command to be placed into macros *STRATEGICALLY* then why put the command in the game whatsoever. Some people keep saying that they said in a press conference that they didn't intend gear swaps. They didn't say this... They said that they didn't expect the extent to which they would be used, but saw no problem with it.

SE DID intend people to use gear swaps. They simply didn't expect that people would use them so much.
#111 Jul 04 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Not to mention gear like elemental staffs, SE was not so stupid that they thought you would nuke 1 element all fight. They did "intend" gear swapping just not as often, and they encouraged it. Adding gear like turban (5% haste, and a lot other stuff), they knew it was for gear swapping.
#112 Jul 04 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand why people keep saying this. There is a command that was placed in the game at launch of FFXI... it's the /equip command. If SE didn't intend for this command to be placed into macros *STRATEGICALLY* then why put the command in the game whatsoever. Some people keep saying that they said in a press conference that they didn't intend gear swaps. They didn't say this... They said that they didn't expect the extent to which they would be used, but saw no problem with it.

SE DID intend people to use gear swaps. They simply didn't expect that people would use them so much.


People are referring to two different things:

Gear changing--the ability to change gear in combat.

Gear swapping--the expectation and strategic tactic that requires players to have many items for most slots.

SE intended to let players change it. They never intended for it to be required of players to have 5 million gil worth of gear just to cast three different spells.

And don't make the mistake of confusing the ability to do something with the expectation of it.

To make an example out of another game, WoW has the new Death Knight class. They are able to use 2-handed weapons or DW. Blizzard said they want to make DW available for players that want it, but they are going to make sure 2-handed is better. So, while they are giving the option for players that may want it, the expectation is that most will do something else.
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#113 Jul 04 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Default
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If you are able to do something that improves your effectiveness, then it will be done. They knew this, you wonder why you need 3 million in equip? Its because they added that gear in the game, when they add stuff they are adding it for a reason. Also it was never a need, you could play the game without gear swapping if you wanted to, if you let the community dictate to you then its your fault. The community says "ewwwww no drg" but people still leveled and used drg.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 4:11pm by HocusP
#114 Jul 04 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE had a knack for misjudging the playerbase.

They thought we'd go for VT's, we weren't satisfied by anything less than ITs. They gave us SAM tank and a NIN DPS advanced jobs, we went and switched their roles. They thought we'd change gear and we turned into blinking monstrosities (largely to take on the ITs we weren't supposed to, that also conveniently made SAM tanking so awful and NIN tanking so viable).

I don't mean to undermine your point here, HocusP, as I quite frankly don't care which way they go about the whole gear thing - so long as they're a bit more intelligent and balanced about itemization.

But you have to make your point some other way than giving SE omniscience and a universal seal of approval. SE's interaction with it's playerbase was awful; they couldn't properly predict our behavior, they couldn't decide if they wanted to humor our deviant behavior or curtail it, they often settled on indescion - an awkward waffling without so much as a word of placation or explanation to the masses. This is one of those things that needs to held to a higher standard in FFXIV.


#115 Jul 04 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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How about this for a suggested mechanic? Forget specialization by gear and make a kick **** stance system.

Add a bunch of stance elements that you can learn with different pluses and minuses. Maybe you kill some mega boss and it drops something that you can trade to someone that will teach you a stance element for an example of how you might get a stance element. The stance elements would serve the same purpose as specialized gear, except most of the characters defense would come from actual armor (which might more typically have negatives, like heavy plate has -dex or -agi or something).

Add a UI for customizing the stance you use when activating certain abilities. The UI could be similar to what FFXI currently does for customizing PUP automatons. So for instance, maybe spring feet + neutral balance + weapon forward = bonuses to speed / accuracy and minuses to damage while dug in foot + forward lean + raised weapon = bonuses to damage but minuses to speed / accuracy. Additionally, stances could also be available for general use much like berserk offers in FFXI, but with more customization.

Maybe this is effectively the same as specialized gear, but maybe there are some differences. The complaints about realism for changing gear go away. Many of the uses for macros become unnecessary. I know most of my macros are some number of gear swaps, activation of an ability, and maybe a recast timer. It would be cool if the stances were reflected in the graphics by the position of the characters. Switching to stances would also remove the inventory problem. A cost to using stances instead of gear is that crafting and economy would need to be carefully considered.
#116 Jul 04 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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What I like about gear swapping:

It gives you a reason to want gear that is not strictly an upgrade from the gear you have. Putting resistances on some gear and then introducing fights that require those resistances is a tad but cheesy, IMO, and I much prefer the thought of wanting gear for different purposes that aren't just related to a particular encounter.

One cool thing about FFXI (I think it's cool, anyway) is that some of the gear that was best in the game at or near launch is still some of the best gear. At the same time, there is a lot of newer gear that players still drool over. It's hard to have both of these things if you don't have a strong niche for situational gear, because after awhile people can theory craft the game to the point where you can calculate whether a piece of gear actually is an upgrade or not. If it's not, then it's useless, and if it is, then your old gear is useless. I hate the fact that in WoW, my gear feels like a paint job, soon to be painted over by another layer which is just +3 to every stat. To some degree this is inevitable, but the more diversity in gear that is useful, the less common this will be.

Things I don't like about gear swapping:

1) It's incredibly weird to swap full sets of armor in the middle of battle. This isn't the biggest consideration for me, as the entire game is fantasy and we are forced to swallow an awful lot of ideas that have no internal logic, just to make the game work in a way that's fun.

2) Inventory and macro overhead. Gear swapping puts a lot of pressure on your inventory, since inventory (and the availability of gear) are the only factors that truly limit the amount of swapping you can do. This in turn means that to truly play to your maximum potential, you spend most of the game fretting over keeping 1-2 gear slots open at all times, with any more than that a waste of potential efficiency.

Macros for gear swapping are just a pain. Part of this has to do with the limited space in FFXI's macros, but part of it is just the fact that it's tedious to create macros to swap in a bunch of gear in and out for every ability you possess. A cleaner macro interface and longer macros would alleviate some of this, but only some.

My Solution(s):

Allow gear swapping, but not every slot. Designate some portion of your gear slots as swappable (say, fingers, ears, neck, and hat) and make it so that the others cannot be swapped in combat.

Alternatively, make it so that each piece of gear that you swap takes time. So you can't macro gear into all of your abilities, but if there are one or two pieces that would really add value in a particular situation, you have the option to swap ahead of time.

Final Note: Knowing what little we know about FFXIV at this point, I'd speculate that at the very least, we will have a hard time swapping weapons, since it seems that weapons are the central element of determining your "job" at any given moment. It would be truly odd if you could swap from being a WHM to a BLM in mid combat, would it not?
#117 Jul 04 2009 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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I'm actually of the understanding that a manatee's intelligence and recognition skills are actually fairly high for most mammals. At which point, with proper training I'm sure it could be taught to read small words and sentences. Dolphins have even been taught to speak up to 50 english words used correctly in sentences.


And yet still can't compare intellectually to most mentally challenged people.

My point was that I already explained pretty **** simply and straightforwardly how FFXI could use the exact same system as gearswapping without actually gearswapping. All of the strengths and none of the weaknesses. I then went on to explain how it could be a better, deeper system. Anyone who is still arguing FOR gearswapping has already lost the argument. They apparently just don't realize it yet because the English language escapes them.
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#118 Jul 04 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyone who is still arguing FOR gearswapping has already lost the argument. They apparently just don't realize it yet because the English language escapes them.


Yeah.... no. All you did was go "Here, let's have these new things that are exactly like equipment, but not equipment and have those changeable, that way you can have the effects of changing gear without actually changing gear!"

It's a roundabout way of pretending you changed something, when you only disguised the "problem". Nothing's going to be "realistic" in a video game, so trying to use that argument about how gear swapping shouldn't be allowed is worse than thinking the world is flat.

I've yet to see one actual decent argument against gear swapping. All I see is the equivalent of "You should have to compromise your equipment so that you have the best mix, instead of having the best of everything for everything." That's like saying "I want to be able to gimp the possible performance of everyone so that I don't need to get as much gear. It's strategic guys! lawlz!"

The only problem with gear swapping was that it took up too much inventory. And that was a problem with the inventory system, nothing else.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 1:07am by Deadgye
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#119 Jul 04 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Default
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Oh, valid retort! Would you like to expand on your rebuttal or just keep acting smug about the fact that you're wrong?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#120 Jul 04 2009 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Oh, valid retort! Would you like to expand on your rebuttal or just keep acting smug about the fact that you're wrong?


Why yes actually, I would. (Enter buttons are a tricky devil.)
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#121 Jul 04 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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All you did was go "Here, let's have these new things that are exactly like equipment, but not equipment and have those changeable, that way you can have the effects of changing gear without actually changing gear!"


Uh, yes and no. I did do that initially because the people I was talking to didn't seem to want to change much of anything. So I intentionally didn't change much of anything. I then explained how the system could be expanded to be better.

Quote:
It's a roundabout way of pretending you changed something, when you only disguised the "problem".


And what is the "problem?" The problem of people not liking gearswapping? Because it seems to have solved it rather than disguised it.

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Nothing's going to be "realistic" in a video game, so trying to use that argument about how gear swapping shouldn't be allowed is worse than thinking the world is flat.


And this argument has already been trounced several times.

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I've yet to see one actual decent argument against gear swapping.


People don't like it. Since it's a video game, that's generally all the argument needed. Actually, that's always a good argument when you're talking about a means of entertainment. Not that there aren't other arguments. Maybe you can't see them because you're not looking for them?

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The only problem with gear swapping was that it took up too much inventory. And that was a problem with the inventory system, nothing else.


And that was also solved by the system I proposed.

Let me ask you this. Considering that the system I proposed would appease nearly all of the people that have a problem with gear-swapping, while taking absolutely nothing away from the people who do like gear-swapping (unless I guess they just like having their armor blink in and out mid combat), what exactly is the problem with it? I will be very interested to hear an argument that is not ridiculously flawed.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#122 Jul 04 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Let me ask you this. Considering that the system I proposed would appease nearly all of the people that have a problem with gear-swapping, while taking absolutely nothing away from the people who do like gear-swapping (unless I guess they just like having their armor blink in and out mid combat), what exactly is the problem with it? I will be very interested to hear an argument that is not ridiculously flawed.


How is what you proposed any different from gear swapping? All you've done is create a new set of "gear" to swap. Your "expanding it to make it better" would work exactly the same if it was applied to equipment; concreting the statement that it's exactly the same thing. You have very good ideas, monsters changing what they're trying to do so that you have to adapt is a very, very awesome concept. But pretending that doing so with a new set of "gear" instead of with traditional "equipment" solves "gear swapping" is silly.

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And this argument has already been trounced several times.


You honestly think realism plays a big enough part to say "we can't allow characters to change gear mid-battle, that's ridiculous!?" when we cast magic spells against dragons and walking onions? If everything in a game had to be completely realistic, especially battle mechanics, games would be insanely boring.
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#123 Jul 04 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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How is what you proposed any different from gear swapping?


1. Doesn't create the visual effect of swapping gear mid battle.
1(b). Makes sense within the canon of the game.
2. Separating the stats from the gear allows gear choices to be aesthetic, improving character customization.
3. Solves the problem of inventory space.
4. As I explained if you read further, this system can be expanded on GREATLY to make it a deeper and more complex system, whereas the current system is severely limited.

But I'll say again, I intentionally made my initial suggestion as similar to gear swapping as possible, just demonstrate that I COULD give you the exact same system minus the things that people don't like about it.

Quote:
Your "expanding it to make it better" would work exactly the same if it was applied to equipment; concreting the statement that it's exactly the same thing.


Not really. I mean, you could as a matter of principle make them identical, but there's simply no reason to. If I use 1000 slots for a grid rather than 16, you're going to have a hard time creating 1000 types of gear. And if I embellish the system with further rules, you're going to have an even more difficult time relating those mechanics to gearswapping. And even if you do, all you're accomplishing is to spit in the face of the people who don't like gearswapping.

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You have very good ideas, monsters changing what they're trying to do so that you have to adapt is a very, very awesome concept.


Thank you for saying so.

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But pretending that doing so with a new set of "gear" instead of with traditional "equipment" solves "gear swapping" is silly.


Well again, this was just an example built within the framework of FFXI. Most people's problem with gearswapping is not the gameplay element of having to attain several items and change them midcombat to maximize performance. Some people say that, yes. It was primarily a side effect in FFXI of a poorly designed game. People were bored in battle so they found the time to macro in gear, and they had already attained the 16 best pieces of gear they could within reason, so they did what they could to make things more interesting. In that sense, even a system -like- gearswapping could go completely unmissed in lieu of a game that was more reliant on player skill and strategy.

But most people just don't want to blink armor in and out of battle, or fill up their inventory space with gear, or perhaps are simply discontent with the fundamental practice in FFXI of camping and grinding for those pieces that have ****** drop rates. And honestly, the argument that they think it's more strategic to have to choose a single piece of equipment is probably just an attempt to come up with more reasons why they don't like gearswapping.

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You honestly think realism plays a big enough part to say "we can't allow characters to change gear mid-battle, that's ridiculous!?" when we cast magic spells against dragons and walking onions?


It's not about realism. It's about canon. Star Wars is not realistic, and that's fine. But if the Power Rangers were to guest star in the last movie, a lot of fans would be rightly ******* And people will be ****** if Master Chief makes his way into FFXIV. And people won't like it if you can just magically change your clothes mid combat with no explanation whatsoever. Particularly from the company that BROUGHT us dress spheres.

Realistic or not, even a fictional world has rules. When those rules are completely cast aside without any sensible reason, it breaks the suspension of disbelief (which is what allows us to enjoy fiction in the first place). This is generally acceptable when it's necessary, and frequently it is in video games, but this is not one of those instances.

If you still don't understand why this is such a big deal to so many people, I suggest you do some reading up on the principles of canon and suspension of disbelief. It might give you some insight into why it's a bigger deal for many people than it seems to be for you.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#124 Jul 05 2009 at 1:51 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with the general consenus that gear swapping has got to go. I don't like having 50 million gear sets for my Blue Mage and Paladin for every single thing. There needs to be more customizable gear that complements whatever 14's version of the merit system is.

While we're at it, there needs to be more unique gear as well. I'm tired of seeing everyone in Haubergeons and I hope there isnt a FFXIV version of it.





Edited, Jul 5th 2009 2:52am by UltKnightGrover
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#125HocusP, Posted: Jul 05 2009 at 6:19 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Its not about realism, its not about canon, its not about anything. This has already been tackled, even in the FF world, nothing about this unrealistic. I have said it many times but no one even quotes and then disagrees with it so I thought it was over. Anyway I said, First, you can change your weapon mid fight and it just magically appear, so what is the big difference between gear and a weapon just magically switching mid fight (because you lose tp? that has nothing to do with realism). Also you can blink in and out for laughs when you not fighting, so what is the difference between keep blinking in and out when your are doing it for laughs, or blinking in and out when you are swinging a weapon waiting for a delay. I mean people blink in and out through a whole zone so they can not be targeted, whats the difference between blinking in and out through a whole zone and doing it to max/min in a fight (remember realism is the point). There is no difference besides it being able max/min in fights which has nothing to do with realism in the FF world. I hate to bring this to your attention, but when you are fighting all you are doing is waiting for a delay, and then swinging again. Its ok for me to blink in and out through an entire zone, but god forbid I blink in and out while waiting for a delay (to max/min) and now its not realistic. lol
#126 Jul 05 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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nothing about this unrealistic.


Almost everyone disagrees with you on this-- even people on your side (who simply argue that it doesn't matter if it's unrealistic). So I'm inclined to think you're wrong.

There's nothing realistic about changing out all of your equipment in the middle of battle. Weapons are another matter.

Maybe I should just sig it-- if you like the basic game design of FFXI so much, you should probably just keep playing it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#127HocusP, Posted: Jul 05 2009 at 1:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Did you stop reading at that point, or just refuse to comment about anything else. I have never once heard somebody complain about people switching in and out for laughs and giggles, nor have I heard people say anything about people switching in and out through an entire zone. How is this action realistic (or people simply don't care) but switching in a fight (a fight is just waiting on delays basically), unrealistic. Not a single person has been able to comment on this yet, instead they just ignore it or choose not to respond. We all know why tho (come on you know why no one cares about it when its being done for other reasons), its because its used to max/min. The point is max/min has nothing to do with realism, and that is the only reason why gear swapping is even a topic (because its used to max/min).
#128 Jul 05 2009 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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I chose not to respond because everything else you said was irrelevant.

There's no point in having a discussion with someone who refuses to rub two brain cells together if it might occur to them that they're entire line of reasoning is ridiculous. You may as well spare yourself the trouble of typing whole paragraphs and just reply with I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA.

Basically we've reached a point where the discussion is no longer productive because I can't take your desperately retarded arguments seriously, and as a result I'd rather have this conversation with a lawnmower.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#129HocusP, Posted: Jul 05 2009 at 7:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Your entire line of reasoning is ridiculous and you have no answer that is why you didn't respond or anybody that talks about realism didn't respond. People blink in and out all the time for laughs and just so they cannot be targeted, but no one has ever complained. The only complaint comes when they are fighting and we all know why, its because it max/min a fight. Many people blinked in and out through an entire zone, just so they couldnt be targeted or /followed, and not 1 complaint about realism here. No one has an answer as to how is these acts are realistic in the FF world, but waiting for a delay and changing is not. I'm still waiting but you don't have an answer so just use insults to try and get by like you did the first time.
#130 Jul 05 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
I'm actually of the understanding that a manatee's intelligence and recognition skills are actually fairly high for most mammals. At which point, with proper training I'm sure it could be taught to read small words and sentences. Dolphins have even been taught to speak up to 50 english words used correctly in sentences.


And yet still can't compare intellectually to most mentally challenged people.

My point was that I already explained pretty **** simply and straightforwardly how FFXI could use the exact same system as gearswapping without actually gearswapping. All of the strengths and none of the weaknesses. I then went on to explain how it could be a better, deeper system. Anyone who is still arguing FOR gearswapping has already lost the argument. They apparently just don't realize it yet because the English language escapes them.


1: I don't see you speaking any dolphin.... Yet some dolphins can speak your language @ least somewhat.

2: Tell me 1 instance in all of FFXI where it explains that when people in vanadiel change clothes, they don't just disappear and magically reappear in new clothes. There's no case of this whatsoever that explains that it doesn't happen like that. However, with many millions of people in vanadiel that do this on a regular basis, the only thing we have to go by as far as the realism of clothing changes in FFXI, is that it is supposed to happen as you see it. Thus, with the information we're given, it would actually be unrealistic in vanadiel if someone changed his or her clothes WITHOUT disappearing and reappearing in the new.

3: I'm not arguing for or against gear swaps. I'm simply saying I want customization for maximization. As it stands, I don't see anything other than gear swaps which would accomplish this in such an effective manner. What you proposed is simply a glorified and fancied-up form of gear swapping.
#131 Jul 06 2009 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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If SE makes better gear this go around, then there will be no need for gear swaps this go around.

I think they've been talking serious steps with this even with these mini-expansions with gear thats easier to obtain, and somewhat customizable.

If I were to play PLD again in the 14, I would be perfectly happy not using macros, but if you're going to have gear that is only good for 30secs on a 3-5 minute cooldown, why should I wear it for the 2:30-4:30 if I have something in the same slot thats better overall?

I could go on an on with examples, but I think SE could get away with making much less gear (theres really a ton of useless stuff in this game) and making the gear better overall, like offering DDs gear endgame that have more beneficial stats than Haste and Att/Acc, and offering mages Staves that dont have to be changed everytime they cast a spell, then this problem will go away.

Fantasy aside, I've always thought it was kind of silly that I could change my neckpiece, earring and belt, while casting a spell, blocking an enemys attack with a shield, then changing them back within a matter of 3 seconds.
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#132 Jul 06 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
1: I don't see you speaking any dolphin.... Yet some dolphins can speak your language @ least somewhat.


I never said anything about dolphins, did I?

Quote:
2: Tell me 1 instance in all of FFXI where it explains that when people in vanadiel change clothes, they don't just disappear and magically reappear in new clothes. There's no case of this whatsoever that explains that it doesn't happen like that. However, with many millions of people in vanadiel that do this on a regular basis, the only thing we have to go by as far as the realism of clothing changes in FFXI, is that it is supposed to happen as you see it. Thus, with the information we're given, it would actually be unrealistic in vanadiel if someone changed his or her clothes WITHOUT disappearing and reappearing in the new.


Are... are you joking? So your argument is that in the world of Vanadiel, people are SUPPOSED to magically blink in and out of their clothes? You can't be serious. How many people do you think would agree with you?

Quote:
What you proposed is simply a glorified and fancied-up form of gear swapping.


THAT'S WHAT I'VE ALREADY SAID THREE TIMES. THAT'S WHAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.

If you had read the thread, you would know that.

@HocusP: I'm not having this discussion with you anymore, if you haven't figured it out yet. I accept that you're wrong and too stubborn to admit it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#133 Jul 06 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Default
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What you're proposing is a means for eliminating the effectiveness of gear swapping. I'm simply saying, "That will not happen."

In order to eliminate the effectiveness of gear swapping, one of 2 things has to happen:

1: There has to be at least 1 gear set that is literally "One-size-fits-All".

or

2: There would have to be a penalty imposed upon switching gear that is so harsh that it negates whatever bonuses one might achieve by switching to said alternate gear.

Number 1, which is what you're suggesting, absolutely will not happen. EVER. No MMO has an ultimate 1-size-fits-all gear set. It's never happened and never will. If it DID happen, people would quit playing shortly after attaining it.

Number 2, which would kill a large majority of the fun IMO, may happen and has happened in other MMOs. I see this as foolish, because this bottlenecks people into a specific set of gear that will be worn 100% of the time. This also presents the same problem of people attaining that 1 acceptable set of gear, getting bored, then quitting.

Once again, I'm not arguing for or against gear swapping, as I don't care about it. I'm simply arguing against removing maximization. As it stands, I don't see any feasible alternative that won't result in decreased player interest.

*edit* Kachi, post any single piece of evidence falsifying my claim, and I'll concede that your argument is right. I've already cited evidence supporting my claim.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 1:31pm by Banggugyangu
#134 Jul 06 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Default
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@HocusP: I'm not having this discussion with you anymore, if you haven't figured it out yet. I accept that you're wrong and too stubborn to admit it.


You are not having this discussion because you have no answer, no one ever does so they avoid it. No one can say why magically disappearing through an entire zone so you cannot be targeted (or for laughs) is realistic (no one ever complains about this being unrealistic) in the FF world, but when waiting for a delay (aka fighting) is not. You have no answer for this, as nobody has an answer for this, so just avoid it and keep avoiding it.

Everyone knows why gear swapping is either liked or disliked, it all comes down to max/min, and realism is just a throw in because you either lost the min/max conversation or see its a matter of opinion. You have nothing else to say so its just a yell out "O its not realistic", and you have no details to back it up or can not even answer a question about it. If it was not used to max/min and people just blinked in and out so they couldn't be targeted through an entire zone gear swapping would not even be a topic on here. So the real issue is max/min and that has nothing to do with realism at all.


Edited, Jul 6th 2009 3:02pm by HocusP
#135 Jul 06 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
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HocusP, I appreciate your sentiments, but the very broken English is not helping the case whatsoever.
#136 Jul 06 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Default
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Lol broken english, too bad I have too much going on at the moment. Either way talking about grammer on a forum is nonsense unless your an english major.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 3:31pm by HocusP
#137 Jul 06 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I was an English major, and grammar is important in any type of communication, especially when you're trying to backup your own side of an argument. Nothing says "I don't have a clue" more than failing at your native language.

Not meaning this to offend you at all, just simply saying that your arguments would stand a little stronger if you would proofread your posts.
#138 Jul 06 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
. EVER.


Says the man using one word sentences, if you can't get the overall concept out of that, then your reading comprehension skills need work.
#139 Jul 06 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What you're proposing is a means for eliminating the effectiveness of gear swapping. I'm simply saying, "That will not happen."


I'm not going to address anything else you said, because this shows that you haven't bothered to read my posts.

What I am proposing has NOTHING TO DO with eliminating the effectiveness of gearswapping. As more than one person has already pointed out, the first thing I proposed was the EXACT SAME SYSTEM with only some cosmetic changes.

@HocusP; You just keep patting yourself on the back there, champ. If you can't tell the difference between (A) someone giving up on you because you're asking them to repeat themselves and spell out stupidly obvious **** that a 7 year old could figure out, or (B) giving up because they CAN'T repeat themselves and spell out stupidly obvious ****, then you're honestly not as stubborn as I thought and a whole lot dumber.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#140 Jul 06 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Default
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Depending on context, forceful single word sentences are accepted for informal writing for emphasis.

*edit* kachi, my statement that you quoted was intended toward the person posting above you. I was posting from work, and trying to hide it from my boss, so your post came up as I was writing that. This is also why I ninja-edited the post to add a bit toward your response to my earlier post.

I've read the majority of your posts in this thread. I read posts to their entirety, whether I'm "interested" or not. Why should my "lack of reading" prevent you from providing some form of evidence against my claim? I believe the only reason why you would attempt this, is simply because you have no evidence against my claim. I know this, in fact, because there is no evidence against it.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 4:50pm by Banggugyangu
#141 Jul 06 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

@HocusP; You just keep patting yourself on the back there, champ. If you can't tell the difference between (A) someone giving up on you because you're asking them to repeat themselves and spell out stupidly obvious sh*t that a 7 year old could figure out, or (B) giving up because they CAN'T repeat themselves and spell out stupidly obvious sh*t, then you're honestly not as stubborn as I thought and a whole lot dumber.


You can't repeat yourself if you have never answered the question in the first place. I'll make it simple

1. Is blinking in and out (to stop from being targeted) through an entire zone realistic in FF?

2. If your answer to number 1 is, it is not realistic, then why doesn't anyone ever complain about it when its being used in that way.

3. If your answer to number 1 is it is realistic, then how is that realistic and when you are are fighting it is not.

4. In simple terms, fighting is just swinging a weapon and then waiting on a delay.

5. Max/Min and realism is two different things, so if that is your answer as to why it is not realistic then thats wrong right there.

Now we all know Max/Min is really the only issue here, because some like to do it and some people do not. The point is liking to Max/Min or not has nothing to do with realism. So stop trying to get around the real point of this thread, and talk about the main issue.





Edited, Jul 6th 2009 7:46pm by HocusP
#142 Jul 06 2009 at 5:12 PM Rating: Default
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Cannon is a worthless argument, sorry. NPCs in the ffxi world never sleep. When shops close the npcs just stand there and say "the shops closed, lol sorry". You're finding random pieces of equipment on wild beasts. There are so many "cannon flaws" that it's impossible to even mention them all. Gear changing mid-battle is the least of the problems if you want to argue cannon and it has nothing to do with the actual argument at hand.

I'm fine with turning gear into only a fashion thing and having different "gear slots" to maximize your character than can be swapped and etc. But it's the same thing, so I don't really see a point in doing it. The things that you could expand upon with this new system could just as easily be done with the current gear system.

Personally I'd rather we just go with what, I think lotr?, did; you could put on some gear and make that your "town gear" and even if you switched gear your character wouldn't be shown switching out of your town gear. Maximizing your potential for every single move is more better than having to try and find a midground for everything. It gives you more control over your character and allows you to push it to it's peaks. It keeps the economy more lively because you have to buy more stuff, overall it's better for the game on a whole.

However, it does cause a bad inventory problem. Having gear for everything causes your inventory to be taxed. Since ffxiv isn't held down by lolps2limitations I'm hoping there will be no inventory problems and that there will be no need for mules to hold equipment or for storage npcs. Something like WoWs bag system wouldn't be too bad actually, lol.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 9:13pm by Deadgye
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#143 Jul 06 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Cannon Realism is a worthless argument, sorry.


I'm not usually a Grammar ****.
But canon is all the material written by, or sanctioned by, the original author in a work of fiction. Like; "Sephiroth killed Aerith".




Edited, Jul 6th 2009 9:45pm by Zemzelette
#144 Jul 06 2009 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:
Cannon Realism is a worthless argument, sorry.


I'm not usually a Grammar ****.
But canon is all the material written by, or sanctioned by, the original author in a work of fiction. Like; "Sephiroth killed Aerith".


When I tried to argue back addressing it as "Realism" I was met with
Quote:
It's not about realism. It's about canon.


So... yeah.
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#145 Jul 07 2009 at 4:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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The fate of swapping will ultimately depend on the freedom of customization we get. Personally, I don't like the mid-battle swapping of XI. People use it as an excuse to prevent the construction of "overpowered" gear that could be a fitting reward at the end of a long series of quests, a drop from an NM, a freak drop from scrub mobs, or heaven forbid, something people could craft. And if it does exist to some degree, people just skip past all other options because progression doesn't really exist with SE refusing to antiquate content (Abandoning it is another matter entirely, mind you.).

Much as some people love XI, XIV should NOT turn into XI-2. Cross-job gear has been both a blessing and curse, but people have turned "situational" sets into "standard" sets with stuff like TP gear, WS gear, Nuking sets, HMP, and so on. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that gear can be tailored to specific builds players can take up in their character progression, with the odd spritzing of stuff that may function in certain locations (Fire weaponry and Ice resist gear in that frigid cavern? THE HUMANITY!). Want to be a nuking DRK? Fine, there's a set for you. A tanking MNK? Hey, this one has oodles of HP, VIT, and Counter. Melee RDM? Okay, you'll still be made fun of here, but that WHM just across the way should totally obliterate your healing potential with all they've got going for 'em.

There's very little strategy involved in swapping. Pick the best for a slot. Make sure you have room for it. Use it. Yay? Feels like people are more defending time sinks, as running around fetching all this situational **** means throwing more time at the game. How often is that time actually enjoyed? Sure, the high of getting whatever is nice, but is it worth going 0/100+? Getting ToDs and camping 24hr+ NMs? Millions upon millions of gil? You may answer yes to some, but not everyone else will. BlinkMeNot or <stal> is not a solution to the problem, either. They've just been band-aids to a problem that can't be fixed at this point.
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#146 Jul 07 2009 at 5:46 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Sure, the high of getting whatever is nice, but is it worth going 0/100+? Getting ToDs and camping 24hr+ NMs? Millions upon millions of gil? You may answer yes to some, but not everyone else will. BlinkMeNot or <stal> is not a solution to the problem, either. They've just been band-aids to a problem that can't be fixed at this point.


Yes, don't forget that this gear is optional, and you can very well play without doing any of that. It gives you more gear to strive for, for the people that wants it. I would like to play for 5,6,7,8 years long, not get everything I want in 1 year or less, and be waiting update to update to play again.
#147 Jul 07 2009 at 6:41 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
There's very little strategy involved in swapping. Pick the best for a slot. Make sure you have room for it. Use it. Yay? Feels like people are more defending time sinks, as running around fetching all this situational sh*t means throwing more time at the game. How often is that time actually enjoyed? Sure, the high of getting whatever is nice, but is it worth going 0/100+? Getting ToDs and camping 24hr+ NMs? Millions upon millions of gil? You may answer yes to some, but not everyone else will. BlinkMeNot or <stal> is not a solution to the problem, either. They've just been band-aids to a problem that can't be fixed at this point.


You say there's little strategy involved and make it sound like it's pure child's play to use gear swaps. I pose this question; Why does the vast majority of players I come across get it VERY wrong?

You're stating certain flaws with FFXI that don't relate to gear swapping whatsoever. I'm sure you won't argue that the main reason people dislike players blinking in and out is the fact that target is lost. You mentioned that yourself. If changing gear in FFXIV involves blinking in and out, they could quite easily make it where targets are NOT lost when this happens. I've seen plenty of MMOs that blink their characters for gear changes, yet if you're targeting them, you'll keep targeting them through the whole change.
#148 Jul 07 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Banggugyangu wrote:
Seriha wrote:
There's very little strategy involved in swapping. Pick the best for a slot. Make sure you have room for it. Use it. Yay? Feels like people are more defending time sinks, as running around fetching all this situational sh*t means throwing more time at the game. How often is that time actually enjoyed? Sure, the high of getting whatever is nice, but is it worth going 0/100+? Getting ToDs and camping 24hr+ NMs? Millions upon millions of gil? You may answer yes to some, but not everyone else will. BlinkMeNot or <stal> is not a solution to the problem, either. They've just been band-aids to a problem that can't be fixed at this point.


You say there's little strategy involved and make it sound like it's pure child's play to use gear swaps. I pose this question; Why does the vast majority of players I come across get it VERY wrong?

You're stating certain flaws with FFXI that don't relate to gear swapping whatsoever. I'm sure you won't argue that the main reason people dislike players blinking in and out is the fact that target is lost. You mentioned that yourself. If changing gear in FFXIV involves blinking in and out, they could quite easily make it where targets are NOT lost when this happens. I've seen plenty of MMOs that blink their characters for gear changes, yet if you're targeting them, you'll keep targeting them through the whole change.


I can't tell you why they get it "wrong" in the end. Sure, it's easy to default to calling everyone retards if they don't, and there are forums practically dedicated to that mentality, but part of it simply falls back to measuring the difference between this being a game and a second job. Spare me the ******** of how people should know better or where exactly to go to find answers for questions they might not even know how to word. There is nothing in-game that says, "Go to Alla/Wiki/BG/KI/whatever!"

In fact, I'd argue the fact the game isn't self-sufficiently educating players is a flaw of its own. Was only recently the newbie training program or whatever came about, but since I've never done it, I can't speak of its quality. I doubt it delves too deeply into the hyperspecialization hive-mind mentality of the players, though. "Play this way or you suck!" is far too prevalent, and gear swapping is among the standards of that "way". If nobody opts to take you in and show you the ropes, flying blind isn't an abstract possibility.

So yeah, I help who I can with information if they're willing to digest it, but I'm sure we've all meet the n00bs with their own brand of know-it-all attitude. Maybe this game's been easy for me because I've been playing RPGs for years, built my own MU*s in the past, and generally try to solve my own problems. Not everyone's like me, though, and I don't hold that against others. I just don't see the need for swapping every three seconds when gear could just be universally useful to begin with. Different world. Different rules. A fresh start.
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#149 Jul 07 2009 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure where the rant about teaching new players the ropes was brought about. I'm referring to people who do somewhat understand these things. I'm talking about the level 75 THF I saw the other day who was wearing HQ level 36 rings when he could easily sell those for the less expensive NQ level 74 rings. I asked him why he didn't, and his reply was "These are HQ." Not wanting to get in an argument that day, I just left it at that and went about my business.... but w/e.

I'm talking about the people I see all the time that TP in hecatomb... *yes.. it does still happen* The people that nuke in elemental skill gear for flan-a-burns. The people that think accuracy is the best thing they can use for Spinning Slash in a meripo. I just want to reach through their PC screens and give them the V8 bop to the forehead, then take away their keyboard and change it to the way it SHOULD be.

I had a DRK in a meripo using spinning slash because he "never leveled scythe skill". I informed him that scythe weapon skills would do much more damage, and the extra 7 skill when it's fully leveled is a nice bonus too. He then stated that he didn't want to follow after every other DRK in the game. I removed him from the PT. Even though his scythe was under-leveled, if he had said that he would take the time to skill his scythe up and use it in the future, I would have kept him in the PT. Instead, he completely refused my advice due to his stubborn attitude of wanting to be a unique butterfly. He was stacking full attack and accuracy gear for WS. *On a WS that ignores defense, which is still subject to pDIF caps*.
#150 Jul 07 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Gah, fine, but this is the last **** time.

Oh, perhaps I should have pointed out-- I gear swapped. I gear swapped a lot. I had many different sets of gear, almost the best stuff you could have save relic weapons, and the only things I had to really work towards were a couple of stat points of difference (at the time I quit-- of course now they've released new gear I could grind for, yay!) By the time I quit I was working towards highly situational equipment-- tanking and soloing setups for my SAM, for instance-- and I had gotten really good gear for those as well. I almost certainly had better gear than the people arguing for gearswapping, and I swapped with the best of them. It doesn't change the fact that it's a pretty ****** system, and if you think it's some great strategic element, then you'll probably think Tic Tac Toe is a pretty deep game.

Quote:
1. Is blinking in and out (to stop from being targeted) through an entire zone realistic in FF?


Of course not.
Quote:

2. If your answer to number 1 is, it is not realistic, then why doesn't anyone ever complain about it when its being used in that way.


Probably because it's not a prevalent issue? Is it recent? I played for years and never saw anyone doing this. Start a thread about it, people will probably prefer that a similar feature is not in XIV.


Quote:
4. In simple terms, fighting is just swinging a weapon and then waiting on a delay.


Um, yes? That's fairly realistic. Bigger weapons take longer to swing and require more rest to swing continually. Anyone who's ever used more than one kind of weapon can tell you this. ****, anyone who's ever used a broom and a fork can tell you this.

Quote:
5. Max/Min and realism is two different things, so if that is your answer as to why it is not realistic then thats wrong right there.


Max/Min has absolutely nothing to do with it. Never has. Never have I mentioned it. Are you familiar with the term strawman argument? You should look it up.

Quote:
I'm not usually a Grammar ****.
But canon is all the material written by, or sanctioned by, the original author in a work of fiction. Like; "Sephiroth killed Aerith".


This is one definition, but it also refers to all the realities of a fictional world. So "Sephiroth killed Aerith" is canon in FF7. So is "machines run off of mako energy."

So would be "people in Vanadiel change their clothes instantaneously as if by special magic" but there's nothing in the game that mentions this and no reason to suspect that it's more than a gameplay element under the restrictions of technical limitations. And if it were somehow canonical, then people would still agree that it's an incredibly stupid idea. I mean, FFX-2 did dress spheres in a much more sensible way, and people still think it was stupid, calling it a dress-up game. (Personally I thought it was a decent game.)

Quote:
Yes, don't forget that this gear is optional, and you can very well play without doing any of that. It gives you more gear to strive for, for the people that wants it. I would like to play for 5,6,7,8 years long, not get everything I want in 1 year or less, and be waiting update to update to play again.


Then for the love of god, keep playing FFXI. You seem to really like it. Personally I think camping and grinding is boring, because I'm not a ****** without a life. Watering down content just so that it lasts forever is not a good gameplay design. Maybe someday you'll have other sh*t to do and you'll actually want a game that offers more than that. Until then, FFXI will be there for you.

And as usual, I agree with Seriha. Hi, Seriha.



Edited, Jul 7th 2009 11:33am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#151 Jul 07 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
This is one definition, but it also refers to all the realities of a fictional world. So "Sephiroth killed Aerith" is canon in FF7. So is "machines run off of mako energy."

So would be "people in Vanadiel change their clothes instantaneously as if by special magic" but there's nothing in the game that mentions this and no reason to suspect that it's more than a gameplay element under the restrictions of technical limitations. And if it were somehow canonical, then people would still agree that it's an incredibly stupid idea. I mean, FFX-2 did dress spheres in a much more sensible way, and people still think it was stupid, calling it a dress-up game. (Personally I thought it was a decent game.)


There is still nothing in the game that mentions any other means of clothing change. My point is this: Any argument that blinking out of one's armor into another set in a matter of seconds is unrealistic in the realms of FFXI does not hold water due to lack of evidence.

BTW... You're example is somewhat self-terminating. People thought FFX-2 was stupid because most dudes don't want to play dress-up-dolly with FFX characters. It was not because dress spheres changed their clothing instantaneously. Nearly every chic I talk to that played that game absolutely loved it. The dudes that DO want to play dress-up-dolly in general... well... that's a whole different topic.
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