Long post.. apologies in advance lol:
No, I've already addressed them with REASONS. All I'm getting in return is sh*tty counterarguments that no intelligent person would dignify with a further counterargument, strawman arguments, and "I'M NOT ACKNOWLEDGING YOUR POINT SO IT'S LIKE YOU DIDN'T EVEN MAKE ONE." I'd be an idiot to keep arguing with someone who just pretends like I'm not even making arguments.
So yes, I'm not restating things that have already been said by myself and several others because certain people have proven themselves selectively blind. But I'm not going LALALA, I'm going, "You're @#%^ing retarded."
GASP. And yet, you're still wrong. Hm, how does that work? Because the few people you're talking about are not the majority of people I'm talking about. I'm not going to address this again until you've shown me that you know what a strawman argument is and can somehow convince me that that's not exactly what you're doing.
I'd stop banging your head against the wall about it. You'll only lose more brain cells.
Alright, trying to return to civility...
The more and more you say the more it sounds like you're making a strawman argument. ~.~ I am, and have always been, arguing about the max/min aspect and all that the mechanics that gear swapping addresses. I have on multiple occasions told you that everything involving "realism" has no part in this argument because we have already stated that we don't want people blinking in and out and have offered counterpoints many times; like stating that people could choose a set of town gear and stay in that regardless of what they swap into. I have made several key points, like it helping the economy, and how armor is almost always never made useless, but none of them were argued against with reasons. In fact, almost none of them were even acknowledged. We have had no problem with changing the cosmetic aspects of gear swapping, but we want to keep the mechanical aspects of gearswapping alive. That is why I said that the materia example is the same. It's because it only changes the cosmetic applications, which can also easily be done while keeping "gear swapping".
Except swapping materia would be BY DESIGN and would be very obviously promoted by the game, AND not penalized by taking up tons of inventory space and being a graphic disaster.
And gear swapping as well, would be by design and promoted by the game. With all the hundreds of situational gear implemented into the gear over the course of it's run-time, how can you honestly say it's not promoted? The only problem with it is, as I said before and you just agreed now, the inventory space problem. I already mentioned that this was a problem with ffxi's inventory system and not the gear swapping system. In ffxiv guess where unused materia would probably be held? Your inventory. It succumbs to the same problems. We want to fix the problems, not switch to a new system that requires the same fixes. The graphic disaster point is moot, because like I said before we want that part to be changed to work.
Hey, I'd have been happy to do that long ago if it weren't for a certain tard unwilling to concede that I was right about that. But you should also acknowledge that most people don't have a problem with the general principles of gearswapping and are purely concerned with the crappy way in which it was implemented in FFXI. A few people are arguing it. And most of them probably wouldn't mind nearly as much if it were better implemented.
That's why we kept saying a realism argument had no merits. It's something that should be changed anyway and would have absolutely no effect on the actual mechanics of gear-swapping. (Save blinking causing you to lose target. Although I think we agreed on that one early on. Not sure.)
But if we're talking purely about the game design problems with it, I'm really not convinced that the "horizontal progression" gearswapping affords is much better than "vertical progression." It never really thrilled me when I would have the best available gear and then an update would throw better pieces of gear at me that I'd have to replace them with. That's one advantage to making it the system similar in principle but entirely different in implementation. With materia for example, you could make it so that every materia had some value and use, so that you wouldn't even have to ever get rid of materia that you had attained. Or you could put a limit on it so that there's some strategy in picking your pieces (like building a deck).
All good ideas, but would work exactly the same with gear. What you described you not wanting though is exactly what vertical progression gives. In a horizontal progression you're not going to replace your gear when you get new ones. A lot of the old ones are going to stay worthwhile. In a vertical progression when you get new gear, old gear is completely replaced. And if you can't gear-swap, all old gear is going to be worthless. Let's take my leaping boots for example. They were pretty overpowered and lasted me from when I got them(24) to 73. At that point I replaced them with the better dragon boots. (Vertical progression.) And even now at 75 I use them. But I don't use them for everything except TP like I used to, I only use them for solo TA. (Horizontal progression) Without gear-swapping, they would have been worthless and replaced much, much earlier. I probably wouldn't have even bought the dragon boots.
But the problems with the system in FFXI are not just cosmetic, though they are the major complaint. It's that the equipment system is basically a card game, and a really bad card game. I'm fine with a -good- "card game." But I'm also fine with throwing that out altogether and making your performance in the game less about what you -have- and more about what you -do-.
Aye, I've stated that it's not implemented that well. I'm hoping that I can look forward to equipping a bunch of gear and then defining that as a certain "set" in game, and that with a simple /equip set "Trick Attack" I would automatically swap into that set without my character blinking. And I'm hoping that we have plenty of inventory space to allow us to do this easily. I'm fine with them using "materia" or something else.. but if they do it needs to work just the same way.
Personally, I don't want a game that's only about what you do and has nothing to do with what you have, because then no matter how much you improve your character it's not going to matter. But a balance between the two would be great. Take thief in ffxi for example. It depends heavily on gear. If you don't have different equipment setups you're likely going to fail in comparison to other thieves.. but it only relies heavily on skill. If you can't coordinate yourself and etc, you will fail in comparison to other thieves. The good thieves are the ones who are both skilled and both geared.
Or SE could design monsters that require different approaches to tackle (and therefore different gear sets).
That's a possibility, but I have a feeling that people would be even more ****** off by having to carry a whole bunch of gear sets for each different type of mob they fight and/or introduce than to have to carry a smaller bunch of gear sets to cover everything. I'd personally go with the 'monsters change tactics and therefore require a gear chance mid-battle' thing more than having different monsters require different things. One could say that ffxi already had the latter. If I was fighting colibri I needed to max out on haste while still keeping acc and attack strong. But if I was fighting kirin I needed to max out on acc and attack while not really caring about haste.
Also, so long as there's a minor penalty for gear swapping (having to disengage to change gear before reengaging, or implementing a gear swap "stun") you'd still be able to use different pieces of gear in the same fight--it just wouldn't be ridiculous like it is in FFXI (and I don't know how anyone can argue that it isn't totally ridiculous in FFXI).
Erm.. I would only agree that it's ridiculous if you're talking about the cosmetic aspect of it. And I would rather not penalize the mechanics of something because the cosmetics didn't match. It would be much easier to just change the cosmetics to actually work. Or if all else fails and you can't fix the cosmetics go to the materia system so that people can't ***** about realism.
I find that to be a much bigger con than you're making it out to be, especially when I believe that SE can design a system that promotes both the economy and strategy. Unrestricted gear swapping just isn't the answer.
I believe they could as well, but I also believe that under such a system that requires you to say, disengage to change gear, the general populous would then not bother to change gear at all because it's too much of a hassle. For most fights at least. Large HNM type fights might be different. And having a HNM in an instanced area that has an effect that stuns you for changing gear would be interesting and welcome. But having it everywhere would be too much. Take ballista for example. They imposed a short 2-3 second stun every time you change equipment. Because of this people would just mix/match their gear to get the most "meh" out of their gear. As a thief for example, I would never take off my rogue's poulains because I was afraid that I would need the extra 15 seconds of flee and as such never used any beneficial evasion, haste, or acc feet. In many matches I didn't even need to flee many times, and even when I did 30 seconds was more than enough. Thus I had much wasted potential by not using better feet. The reason they stunned people for switching gear in ballista however.. was because SE fails and couldn't think of a way to stop people from blinking and thus stop people from forcing others to lose their target by switching gear.
Same happens in BC events, demanding the perfect party for merits, etc..
That's more players being idiots than anything else. Countless times I have done BCs with linkshell members only to have them say "wow.. thf can actually do something in this?". They're brainwashed by the same type of idiots who think you NEED warriors in your merit parties to do anything. While I have been in a thf nin nin party that got 24k/hr.
We can never fully escape the cookie cutter builds, though. I just want the variety to come more from the player end than the code. How that should come to pass, it's difficult to elaborate without any real info on the job system or combat. At its simplest, saying one aspect of a job shouldn't be so glaringly overpowered compared to another that there is only one no-brainer choice (Hey look, there's some strategy for you~). We see that now with merits and the main topic in question here.
This is something I can agree on. Although I will very much miss how the old system worked. In ffxi you can use the math formulas that many of us have painstakingly derived and figure out what piece of gear is best for each action. You'll notice that every 75 thf should be wearing rogue armlets +1 for anything involving trick attack. This is because we've proven that it is the best piece of gear in the hand slot for everything trick attack. But we cannot
use math to figure out weapons, because too many variables are involved. We don't know which outputs more damage over time when including everything: Blau/sirocco, X's/Blau, P-harpe/Blau. There's really no way to find out and thus people will not be all using the same thing. I probably will not like being able to know what's best, but having more things like that, where we can't figure out what's best and that we only know that they're all good, is something I could eventually adapt to.
It ISN'T hardcore or intense from a STRATEGIC standpoint. Figuring out what to use is easy. It IS hardcore from a grinding standpoint. Actually getting the gear takes hours and days.
But let me break down this oh-so difficult strategy for us. You figure out which gear works best for each spell/ability/WS, which these days takes all of five minutes even if you're an idiot. You write out the macro lines. Then you press an extra macro or two every time you use that spell/ability/WS. It's a perfect solution-- the gameplay in FFXI is *yawn* slow-paced, so pressing extra buttons livens things up. And if you only get one set of gear, you'll quickly run out of things to do, so now you can get 5 times the gear for a single job for all those different situations.
Well, to be fair, finding out what to use is far from easy. There's a lot
of complicated math that goes into it. <.<; It does NOT just take 5 minutes to figure out what's best, and you can't do it even if you're an idiot. You first consider your enemy, and then consider the rest of your gear, and then factor in everything.. fstr, dstr, cratio, pdif, level correction, haste, delay, etc. And then you only know what's best on that one enemy, sometimes it's actually too close to call so you don't know. Sometimes it's actually worse for you because of your other gear. It's not going to always be best. I never use my optical hat vs colibri or mamool, but against jailer or hope or something else I just might. There is no "this is the best". There is only a "this is the best for this specific enemy", even though there sometimes isn't even that. FFXI just has too many cookie-cutter mobs, not cookie-cutter setups. If I want to merit.. I'm going to be either fighting mamool ja or colibri. This is a problem with the game and not with the equipment swapping. If ffxi had many more viable enemies to fight then there would be a plethora more equipment setups.
I agree that it should be those who play well, but you lost me when you said "work." Games are meant to be played. If you want to work, get another job. As soon as it feels like work, I'm done, thanks. I've been playing games for over two decades. I've already had my patience tested to its limit. I'm done with repeating mundane, monotonous tasks just to clear a hurdle. I'm tired of killing a boss ten times when I've already proved I can kill him once, just to get a helmet. Challenge more than my patience or just let me plow through what little content the game actually has.
You can't have a game without work. Why? Because work isn't timesinks and ********* Work is challenge. And some challenges DO require time. (Airships are a timesink, I'm not arguing that things like that are good.) In FFX if I wanted to get all the best weapons in the game, I needed to do a ******** of work. I needed to dodge 200 frieking lightning bolts in a row? Was it worth it for me? No, so I didn't do it. Was it worth it for other people? Yes! When I wanted to get tidus's best weapon I had to complete the chocobo thingy with a time or 0.0; Was it hard for me to do it? Did it require a decent amount of work? Yes. But it was fun to do! And it felt like I actually accomplished something when I did it. There were also times that I almost broke my controller though. (those ******* birds cheat)
Games are hobbys, they're there to provide you somewhere to waste time and to challenge yourself. Games are not just based on skill alone, and do require some effort to get things done before you can combine it with your skill to do something. You can always go extreme and attempt to go through a game naked.. but that's for hardcore people who are super-skilled. <.<;
Hey, I'm not saying it shouldn't be challenging. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be -work-. Look at a popular game like Super Smash Bros. or Guitar Hero-- no one player has any particular advantage over another from the get go, but some are more skilled than others. But people still actually -work- very hard to get better at those games. The trick is that while they're "working" they're actually playing...
There's a difference between playing a game and improving as you do it, and just working hard to do better in a game. It's the difference between playing football to get better at football, and running through tires to get better at football. Which one is going to be fun for a long time, and which one will get old incredibly quick?
I could see how this would apply.. but I just don't view ffxi, and the way that you obtain most gear in this sense. There are very few things that actually work the way you describe you hate, and most of us who play ffxi will agree that those should be changed. Dynamis is boring because it's the same thing over and over again to get relic gear. So of course when I'm pulling I pull medium-big sized links to spice things up and to keep things not the same. That way I'm having fun while playing and it doesn't feel like work. If I'm doing something like einherjar and odin, it never feels like work because it's never the same exact thing. We agree
that things that are annoyingly repetitive need to be changed, but there aren't many things that actually fit the bill.