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#152 Jul 07 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
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Then for the love of god, keep playing FFXI. You seem to really like it. Personally I think camping and grinding is boring, because I'm not a ****** without a life. Watering down content just so that it lasts forever is not a good gameplay design. Maybe someday you'll have other sh*t to do and you'll actually want a game that offers more than that. Until then, FFXI will be there for you.


I have a life (college, gf, play sports, work, all that), that doesn't mean I don't want a long term game either. You should stick to whatever game you are playing now, if you don't think SE is making a game that they plan on lasting for 10years +. The longer a game is out the less chance you will get people playing it for the first time, so the only way to keep a game going for 10years +, is if people continue to play it for 5,6,7,8+ years.

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Max/Min has absolutely nothing to do with it. Never has. Never have I mentioned it. Are you familiar with the term strawman argument? You should look it up.


Max/Min is the only reason gear swapping is even a topic, it is the reason why it is expected from people. Max/Min has everything to do with it, and realism does not.


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Um, yes? That's fairly realistic. Bigger weapons take longer to swing and require more rest to swing continually. Anyone who's ever used more than one kind of weapon can tell you this. ****, anyone who's ever used a broom and a fork can tell you this.


This has nothing to do with the topic, real life references do not work here. The delay is so people just can't spam a button and swing fast. The point was a fight is nothing more then waiting for a delay in basic terms.

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Probably because it's not a prevalent issue? Is it recent? I played for years and never saw anyone doing this. Start a thread about it, people will probably prefer that a similar feature is not in XIV.


This has been going on forever and people knows this. Have you ever checked a person and he switched gear? If he has it is because he doesn't want you to see him or he doesn't want to be targeted. I havern't heard anybody say this is not realistic in the FF world, but as soon as its used to Max/Min it just becomes magically unrealistic. That is the point there are many times people blink in and out for other reasons and nobody says these acts are unrealistic, but if they are waiting for a delay (also know as fighting), then they say its not realistic. It should not matter whats the reason your blinking in and out (is the point), its either realistic or not.
#153 Jul 07 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Default
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I just don't see the need for swapping every three seconds when gear could just be universally useful to begin with.


The problem with that is that in order for there to be gear that was universal it would need as many stat enhancements and effects as set items in diablo 2. That or you'd have to do away with gear that had "Enhances blahblah", or helped abilities that were used less often.

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Max/Min has absolutely nothing to do with it. Never has.
Smiley: banghead

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It doesn't change the fact that it's a pretty sh*tty system, and if you think it's some great strategic element, then you'll probably think Tic Tac Toe is a pretty deep game.


It was badly implemented, but it's not a sh*tty system. If you were to compare gear swapping to a game it would be more like chess than tic tac toe, there's probably a better analogy but I'm never going to think of it~. When you're fighting a very high evasion enemy you go all acc. When you're fighting merit mobs you try to balance acc, haste, and attack. When you're soloing you stack on as much evasion as possible. When you're performing ranged attacks you wear as much racc as possible. When you're casting utsusemi you wear as much haste as possible. You adapt yourself to attack the enemies defense, or to protect against the enemies attacks.

It adds onto the interactive element of the game. It was not the only interactive element.. in fact for the most part you only changed gear when you were performing a certain action. The only thing I can think of where you'd change equipment for pure benefit without performing an accompanying action is for defending against a magical attack with MDB/resistance. I'd like ffxiv to be more interactive, but I'd still like to be able to make my character as good as it can be.

Having gear swapping, or the equivalent of, takes nothing away from the game. It only adds onto it. It's not like you get the best stuff possible and then every few months your gear becomes completely useless and you have to get new stuff. Many items from 5 years ago are still just as good now as they were then. They need to stop the blinking though. An equivalent of blinkmenot or the town gear thingy is a must.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 2:53pm by Deadgye
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#154 Jul 07 2009 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I see more people enjoy the idea of swapping gear mid-fight than I thought. Nothing wrong with having that opinion, obviously. I'm just hoping for a bit more thoughtful itemization, stat calculations, and spells/abilities that would render this mechanic unneeded. If they do keep this "feature," I would hope they'd at least support it better. No blinking and lots... I mean LOTS... of lines per macro... if they even use macros as we know them.

This is a new game, after all. It may and probably will borrow a lot from FFXI, but I sure hope they're going to take this opportunity to really think outside the box and do away with the more archaic mechanics and kludges that we put up with in their current game.
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#155 Jul 07 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Max/Min is the only reason gear swapping is even a topic, it is the reason why it is expected from people. Max/Min has everything to do with it, and realism does not.


So basically, you've decided to just go the LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU approach. Got it. I'm guessing next is the "Haha, you're giving up because you're wrong" rebuttal, or will it be the "Explain to me like a 5 year old how what I just said makes no **** sense?" tactic? Your arguments are unending fallacies (do be sure to look up strawman arugments), and whether you won't admit you're wrong because you're stubborn or just stupid no longer matters to me. I'll know not to waste anymore time on you in the future.

@Deadgye: Yes, some people are talking about max/min. So why don't you talk to them about it? Most people just don't like the way this method of max/min is implemented because it's ****. If it were cards or materia instead of gear they'd have no complaints. I'm sure you can find someone to tell you that the lack of unicorns is the problem. Don't rope my arguments with theirs, mmkay?

Not that max/min is at all essential or even a desirable element in an MMO. There are, of course, dozens of MMOs with that gameplay aspect, and you can play any one of them. There are also a number of games in which player ability is far more important than any gear or max/min (many where max/min doesn't even exist), but not really as MMOs. Simple max/min is a ******, played out concept, and in FFXI it's not that complicated.

So if it helps, you've roped me out of speaking purely about the realism arguments into both realism and max/min, and now you're wrong on both of them. Maybe next time you'll just stick to the arguments I'm making and not invite me to show you other ways in which you're wrong.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 12:34pm by Kachi
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#156 Jul 07 2009 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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If you think realism is the real issue with gear swapping, then you are blind. Its that simple

Max/Min is in every game, when a job is perferred over another job that is max/min in your party or group. When a spell or ability is perferred over another spell or ability it is Max/Min just in another form.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 4:03pm by HocusP
#157 Jul 07 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Just because it's in a game doesn't mean it's at all important, and often times even though it exists in a game, the players don't know how to max/min for years after release because of the complex mathematical scenarios. It ends up being more of an ignorant group mentality than actual min-maxing. Don't confuse simple competitiveness with min-maxing.

And yes, I replied even though I said I wouldn't because you at least attempted to make a valid argument there. Doubt lightning will strike twice though.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#158 Jul 07 2009 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
I hope and pray that FFXIV will forgo the idea of gear swapping in battle. I do it in FFXI because it's necessary, but it's a really preposterous and annoying game mechanic. Far be it from me to try to inject logic and realism into a fantasy game, but unless they add a Japanese style super hero class, I shouldn't be changing clothes in the middle of a fight.

Just thought I'd get that idea out there and see how others felt about it.


I still challenge you to find any evidence stating that blinking in and out is unrealistic within the realms of Vana'diel. I would even accept any interview of devs or heck... even the lolBradygames guide.
#159 Jul 07 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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Yes, It might not be as easy or as simple to Max/Min because they could use a more complicated system. But, there are people that do test after test on any type of system, and its just a matter of time before a Max/Min is found. It wouldn't take years either, but it doesn't have to be as simple as +str for this ws either. Test from very well educated people will always be done, and a Max/Min will be found, in a matter of time. Unless of course you make gear that is universal and the best, but then people would get this set and either quit or play update to update.
#160 Jul 07 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't like gear swaps, at least when you're engaged / have your weapon drawn on a mob.

Choosing your gear for the mob you're fighting is, of course, something that needs to stay. That doesn't mean you need to choose your gear for every attack and job ability you use mid-battle, though.

If there was some penalty to switching gear (i.e. having to disengage the mob, change gear, and then re-engage) I'd be fine with it--in fact, that might further the element of strategy (is the wasted time necessary to disengage and switch gear worth the added benefits of using the different gear?).

Or maybe they can just add a "stun" timer that goes into effect when you switch gear--your character can't cast spells, swing its weapon, or use job abilities for X seconds after making a swap.

I just think it's stupid that players can instantly macro different gear in and out mid-battle for every move, spell, or whatever that they use. It's a dumb concept, it looks stupid, and in my opinion it actually takes less strategy. When deciding what to wear when fighting a mob it takes more strategy to have to weight the pros and cons of using different types of gear, knowing that the gear you're wearing will affect every move you make.

Using FFXI's gear swapping you simply select the best weapon-swinging gear for the mob you're going to be fighting and then macro in the best gear for each jobability/whatever you're going to use. It promotes less strategy and a higher dependance on acquiring more gear (i.e., grinding). It's a dumb system.
#161 Jul 07 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Blinking from gearswaps is freaking lame. I mean, I love playing a game where 90% of a battle I cant see my character. Mind you, when I cast invisible, I CAN see my character. Well played.

Why have evasion down, attack up gear, if you are just going to swap it to evasion up, attack down gear the second you get hate. Why have gear with slow on it if as soon as you cast a spell you get the full benefits of haste? Why have all elemental staves still be top-dog simply because constant swapping of staves is possible, when there are clearly items "intended" to be superior available at 75 that people will never use because ele-staff swapping is so easy to get away with.

On one hand, we have people getting punished with attack delays for weapon swapping, clearly showing they dont like the concept of abusing low delay weapons to high delay weapons initial hit trade-off, yet the rest of the gear, which essentially does the same thing with today's haste-crazy gameplay, is fine to swap in and out of.... Freakin' broken.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 6:48pm by FUJILIVES
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#162The One and Only Deadgye, Posted: Jul 07 2009 at 3:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Erm.. notrly. If you swing a dagger and then swap to a great sword, the time before you swing with that great sword is the time that it would take to swing the the dagger again. Vica versa. Just like when you swap in strong gear with slow on it for a weapon skill and get a melee hit off and then change back into haste gear, you still have to wait the amount of time to swing as if you were wearing your slow armor.
#163 Jul 07 2009 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're starting to sound like Hocus.

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Excuse me? If anyone has been going LALALALA it's you. There have been multiple counterarguments that put down the whole "It's not realistic" argument, yet you continue on like they've never been stated, or you brush them off saying they don't apply.


No, I've already addressed them with REASONS. All I'm getting in return is ****** counterarguments that no intelligent person would dignify with a further counterargument, strawman arguments, and "I'M NOT ACKNOWLEDGING YOUR POINT SO IT'S LIKE YOU DIDN'T EVEN MAKE ONE." I'd be an idiot to keep arguing with someone who just pretends like I'm not even making arguments.

So yes, I'm not restating things that have already been said by myself and several others because certain people have proven themselves selectively blind. But I'm not going LALALA, I'm going, "You're ******* retarded."

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If it were cards or materia instead of gear, nothing would change.


GASP. And yet, you're still wrong. Hm, how does that work? Because the few people you're talking about are not the majority of people I'm talking about. I'm not going to address this again until you've shown me that you know what a strawman argument is and can somehow convince me that that's not exactly what you're doing.

I'd stop banging your head against the wall about it. You'll only lose more brain cells.

Alright, trying to return to civility...

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People who don't want to swap gear still wouldn't want to swap materia, and people who do want to swap gear would still want to swap materia.


Except swapping materia would be BY DESIGN and would be very obviously promoted by the game, AND not penalized by taking up tons of inventory space and being a graphic disaster.

Quote:
Now can you please go away with the "IT NEEDS TO BE REALISTIC" arguments and let the people who actually care about the game mechanics debate?


Hey, I'd have been happy to do that long ago if it weren't for a certain tard unwilling to concede that I was right about that. But you should also acknowledge that most people don't have a problem with the general principles of gearswapping and are purely concerned with the crappy way in which it was implemented in FFXI. A few people are arguing it. And most of them probably wouldn't mind nearly as much if it were better implemented.

But if we're talking purely about the game design problems with it, I'm really not convinced that the "horizontal progression" gearswapping affords is much better than "vertical progression." It never really thrilled me when I would have the best available gear and then an update would throw better pieces of gear at me that I'd have to replace them with. That's one advantage to making it the system similar in principle but entirely different in implementation. With materia for example, you could make it so that every materia had some value and use, so that you wouldn't even have to ever get rid of materia that you had attained. Or you could put a limit on it so that there's some strategy in picking your pieces (like building a deck).

But the problems with the system in FFXI are not just cosmetic, though they are the major complaint. It's that the equipment system is basically a card game, and a really bad card game. I'm fine with a -good- "card game." But I'm also fine with throwing that out altogether and making your performance in the game less about what you -have- and more about what you -do-.

And I apologize if I have been undeservedly short.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#164 Jul 07 2009 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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Hey, I'd have been happy to do that long ago if it weren't for a certain tard unwilling to concede that I was right about that.


If you was right about it, then it would have been over a long time ago. In fact you are wrong, unless you think changing gear period is unrealistic. Either something is realistic or not, its no way something can not be realistic when used in 1 way, but realistic when used in many other ways. Either it is realistic in the FF world or not, no matter how you are using it.

Whether i'm blinking in and out so I can't be targeted, or i'm blinking in and out to max/min, the fact is i'm blinking in and out.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 10:15pm by HocusP
#165 Jul 07 2009 at 10:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Deadgye:

Quote:
It makes it so stuff you worked hard for usually won't be completely replaced by a new piece of armor. (Making your previous work completely worthless.) etc. It's far from a dumb system, but it could use some work before it would be a good one.


Or SE could design monsters that require different approaches to tackle (and therefore different gear sets).

Also, so long as there's a minor penalty for gear swapping (having to disengage to change gear before reengaging, or implementing a gear swap "stun") you'd still be able to use different pieces of gear in the same fight--it just wouldn't be ridiculous like it is in FFXI (and I don't know how anyone can argue that it isn't totally ridiculous in FFXI).

And:

Quote:
While it may promote slightly less strategy


I find that to be a much bigger con than you're making it out to be, especially when I believe that SE can design a system that promotes both the economy and strategy. Unrestricted gear swapping just isn't the answer.

Also, you should just ignore HocusP; he's an idiot.
#166 Jul 08 2009 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Am i wrong for enjoying swapping my gear several times a fight?
Am i wrong for enjoying making all those crazy *** macros?

I come back to this site and instantly remember how annoying this place is.

I love how customizable everything is in ffxi.

I enjoy this game because an idiot cant simply jump in and act like he knows everything. You have to do your research, know your gear, know your timing. you usally have to learn something and work that brain of yours.

All of this is what makes FFXI so bad ***, and hardcore. It forces us to push ourselves to do better, be smarter and faster.

I'll go to any other mmo and it just seems easy compared to ffxi.

Gear swaps was alot of fun to me, and everyone here has just defaulted everyone else that has a different opinion than the norm, omfg that is just so annoying.

If FFXI wasnt such a time sink, gear swaps wouldnt be so bad(inventory space, money to buy ALL the gear, i do realize all this **** gets old) and not to mention the blinking, which got old the first time i tried to heal someone swapping their gear.

Idk, i like how tough, intense, intelligent this game is, and gear swapping is such a major part of that.

I'm pretty sure SE will do away with all of this, make it easier for more people to get into, dilute our community with more idiots(like in wow) but honestly, there is nothing wrong with the idiot trying to enjoy his game.

I did enjoy a community of intelligent individuals forced to learns complex concepts to win the game, and i thought these same people(that often post of the forums) were more open mined and unbiased as to default every noob or gear swapping supporter for voicing their opinions. It wasnt always this way here, now you have some people scared to post because of all the negative criticism they will inevitably receive (stupid post, or a post based purely of opinion, which shouldn't be judged in the first place)

Basically Gear swaps is just plain life in FFXI, and we shouldnt bash those that actually enjoyed the complex concept of it all, like myself.

Thank you, and im prepared to be defaulted myself, since it doesnt mean anything anymore.
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#167 Jul 08 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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I guess I can see it both ways. I see the point in how annoying and frustrating gear swapping can be, especially when macros were so limited in size like in XI. I also know space can become an issue.

But I also see the value in getting people interested in several items per slot. Once you are in the end game phase of any MMO, new and shinier equipment is one of the big goals. With swaps, you can keep using pieces long after your newest favorite comes along, for whatever capacity the older garment really shines in.
#168 Jul 08 2009 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I'm fine with a -good- "card game." But I'm also fine with throwing that out altogether and making your performance in the game less about what you -have- and more about what you -do-.


See, I personally feel that FFXI has a near perfect balance between player skill and character equipment regarding difficulty.

I don't wanna see mister lazy-*** able to solo the hardest mob in the game while naked just because he's skilled at it. I don't wanna see mister short bus able to solo the hardest mob in the game just because he has great gear.

I like the fact that the ones who are able to accomplish tough feats are those who both know how to play well and work to get the necessary equipment. Removing either of those 2 necessities would remove a large part of the difficulty involved and would open the door for 2 types of people whom I feel should be tortured mercilessly until they change their ways *in real life, regarding their behaviors IRL (Yes, I consider stupidity to be a behavior)* into the parts of the game that I enjoy.
#169 Jul 08 2009 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I did enjoy a community of intelligent individuals forced to learns complex concepts to win the game, and i thought these same people(that often post of the forums) were more open mined and unbiased as to default every noob or gear swapping supporter for voicing their opinions. It wasnt always this way here, now you have some people scared to post because of all the negative criticism they will inevitably receive (stupid post, or a post based purely of opinion, which shouldn't be judged in the first place)

Basically Gear swaps is just plain life in FFXI, and we shouldnt bash those that actually enjoyed the complex concept of it all, like myself.

Thank you, and im prepared to be defaulted myself, since it doesnt mean anything anymore.


I love the internet haha. Only here can you find people bashing others' intelligence while at the same time not understanding grammar or even the meanings of simple words (default != defame lol).
#170 Jul 08 2009 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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Morsmorde wrote:
I love the internet haha. Only here can you find people bashing others' intelligence while at the same time not understanding grammar or even the meanings of simple words (default != defame lol).


Learn to understand context, please.

Protip: in these parts, "defaulted" = "having this post rated down to default (or lower)".
#171 Jul 08 2009 at 4:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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As I implied earlier, situational gear isn't a bad thing. However, at what point does situational gear become standard gear based on frequency of use? Rarely do people defending gear swapping for the sake of their character looking good, but instead the min/max aspect of how they want to be their best or criticizing others for not doing the same. This stuff isn't like dinging into level 60 and having 55 STR by default. No single person's gameplay experience is the same, even though there will undoubtedly be situational overlap when it comes to events we have to do, NMs we have to camp, and so on. Again, this becomes a matter of fun versus hassle. Keep in mind SE mentioned being more friendly toward casual players this time around.

I'm still not seeing how strategy really applies in the end. You put the swapped stuff on before you do whatever, then swap to something else. Minimalist accuracy aside on sh*t like Collibri, it's always about getting the biggest numbers possible. People hammer parses into the ground, and while the initial users may be pioneers of data in that respect, the 'strategy' eventually becomes simple parroting. Same happens in BC events, demanding the perfect party for merits, etc..

We can never fully escape the cookie cutter builds, though. I just want the variety to come more from the player end than the code. How that should come to pass, it's difficult to elaborate without any real info on the job system or combat. At its simplest, saying one aspect of a job shouldn't be so glaringly overpowered compared to another that there is only one no-brainer choice (Hey look, there's some strategy for you~). We see that now with merits and the main topic in question here.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 8:27am by Seriha
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#172 Jul 08 2009 at 4:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
I think you should be capable of switching armor in mid combat.

However, there is an extended animation sequence where your character strips down to their underwear, then put their new armor on.


This is why I tell my friends FFXI is really FFX-3 w/ Galkas. More than one LS member stopped smiling when I said, "Instead of Yuna think female THF"

Not sure if I'd feel the same about Galka though...
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#173 Jul 08 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Idk, i like how tough, intense, intelligent this game is, and gear swapping is such a major part of that.


Quote:
See, I personally feel that FFXI has a near perfect balance between player skill and character equipment regarding difficulty.


Well maybe I'm just a friggin genius, but the thing is, it isn't that tough, intense, or intelligent. It's actually somewhat simple.

It ISN'T hardcore or intense from a STRATEGIC standpoint. Figuring out what to use is easy. It IS hardcore from a grinding standpoint. Actually getting the gear takes hours and days.

If I could hearken back to my card game example, it's like a trading card game that kind of sucks and everyone spends all their time trying to get the best cards rather than enjoying the card game. The fun is not in the card game itself, but in getting the cards to complete your deck. And as anyone who has ever played a card game can tell you, that's a ****** game-- the fun part should be playing the game itself.

But let me break down this oh-so difficult strategy for us. You figure out which gear works best for each spell/ability/WS, which these days takes all of five minutes even if you're an idiot. You write out the macro lines. Then you press an extra macro or two every time you use that spell/ability/WS. It's a perfect solution-- the gameplay in FFXI is *yawn* slow-paced, so pressing extra buttons livens things up. And if you only get one set of gear, you'll quickly run out of things to do, so now you can get 5 times the gear for a single job for all those different situations.

Situational **** is great. It's what makes the game interesting. But the extent to which gear is situational in FFXI is not very complex or strategic. It's checkers where it should be chess.

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I like the fact that the ones who are able to accomplish tough feats are those who both know how to play well and work to get the necessary equipment.


I agree that it should be those who play well, but you lost me when you said "work." Games are meant to be played. If you want to work, get another job. As soon as it feels like work, I'm done, thanks. I've been playing games for over two decades. I've already had my patience tested to its limit. I'm done with repeating mundane, monotonous tasks just to clear a hurdle. I'm tired of killing a boss ten times when I've already proved I can kill him once, just to get a helmet. Challenge more than my patience or just let me plow through what little content the game actually has.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#174 Jul 08 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Also, so long as there's a minor penalty for gear swapping (having to disengage to change gear before reengaging, or implementing a gear swap "stun") you'd still be able to use different pieces of gear in the same fight--it just wouldn't be ridiculous like it is in FFXI (and I don't know how anyone can argue that it isn't totally ridiculous in FFXI).


This will make mages able to gear swap the same way but melee can't, remember mages are not engauged anyway. A stun could have easily been added to stop it but instead they encouraged it.

You should ignore Morsmorde hes a childish idiot.
#175 Jul 08 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:

This will make mages able to gear swap the same way but melee can't, remember mages are not engauged anyway. A stun could have easily been added to stop it but instead they encouraged it.

You should ignore Morsmorde hes a childish idiot.


We don't really have any confirmation that in XIV mages won't be engaged in battle. That's the biggest problem with this thread and threads like it - some comments are taking the "way it is" in XI as being fact for the "way it will be henceforth", and there really is no basis for that.

I personally think that mages not being "engaged" in battle was an oversight as well, and SE just never bothered to correct it since it never really caused a hassle aside from not hearing the battle music. I mean they corrected the battle music issue with a patch (years later), but that's not really what I am talking about.

#176 Jul 08 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
We don't really have any confirmation that in XIV mages won't be engaged in battle. That's the biggest problem with this thread and threads like it - some comments are taking the "way it is" in XI as being fact for the "way it will be henceforth", and there really is no basis for that.

I personally think that mages not being "engaged" in battle was an oversight as well, and SE just never bothered to correct it since it never really caused a hassle aside from not hearing the battle music. I mean they corrected the battle music issue with a patch (years later), but that's not really what I am talking about.



Since the only thing we have to go by is FFxi, then that is what we are going on. Until more information is released, we have to speculate on either past games or what you think it will be like. I don't think its too far out to say that mages would not be engauged, at least I hope they won't be since I'm a blm. Anyway gear swapping is a topic because it was in FFXI, so we are using FFXI as a starting point. We know that combat will be different but, going by FFXI standards, mages would be able to gear swap unless there was a stun penalty of some sort.

If I wanted to be hitting mobs, I would have played a melee dd job, but that is just my preference. We have nothing to go on, so when a thread like this is made, we have to go by how it is now.



Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:02pm by HocusP
#177 Jul 08 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,010 posts
HocusP wrote:

Since the only thing we have to go by is FFxi, then that is what we are going on. Until more information is released, we have to speculate on either past games or what you think it will be like. I don't think its too far out to say that mages would not be engauged, at least I hope they won't be since I'm a blm. Anyway gear swapping is a topic because it was in FFXI, so we are using FFXI as a starting point. We know that combat will be different but, going by FFXI standards, mages would be able to gear swap unless there was a stun penalty of some sort.

If I wanted to be hitting mobs, I would have played a melee dd job, but that is just my preference. We have nothing to go on, so when a thread like this is made, we have to go by how it is now.


Being engaged doesn't necessarily mean swinging. I just want to point that out. When I think of being engaged I think of being an active part of the battle, as opposed to a passive observer (which is sometimes what it feels like on a healing or nuking job). It's fine to use XI as a starting point, but when we start using words like "can't" and "won't" when referring to the new game based on what is in the old game, we are beyond the point of speculating and accepting something as fact.
#178 Jul 08 2009 at 11:47 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Being engaged doesn't necessarily mean swinging. I just want to point that out. When I think of being engaged I think of being an active part of the battle, as opposed to a passive observer (which is sometimes what it feels like on a healing or nuking job). It's fine to use XI as a starting point, but when we start using words like "can't" and "won't" when referring to the new game based on what is in the old game, we are beyond the point of speculating and accepting something as fact.


True, but I was using them words in FFXI terms, since again we have no information on the battle system of the new game. The confusion is, them words had no bearing on the new game at all, but instead was reflecting on if they tried to stop it in ffxi. In the new game you can't say pretty much anything about gear swapping, because you don't even know the battle system yet. So I'm thinking anything said about gear swapping on here is in regards to FFXI, or other games, until more information is released. Now when people say yes or no to gear swapping in the new game, I think they are going by the way it was implemented in FFXI.

I see engaged as in attacking because you can also disengage and still be in the party (In FFXI Terms). So Going by this is where the comments on mages are not really engaged, so in ffxi terms they could still gear swap unless there was a stun of some sort.
#179 Jul 08 2009 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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2,535 posts
HocusP wrote:
I see engaged as in attacking because you can also disengage and still be in the party (In FFXI Terms). So Going by this is where the comments on mages are not really engaged, so in ffxi terms they could still gear swap unless there was a stun of some sort.


The FFXI system, where "engaged" = "weapon drawn" is not the only way to determine who is engaged in battle.

As an example, in WoW, if any mob close enough to grant you EXP is attacking any member of your group, you are flagged as "in combat", regardless of whether or not you've actually pulled out your weapon.

Other possibilities include being flagged as "in combat" the instant you take any offensive action, being flagged as "in combat" if you are on any mob's hate table, and so on and so forth.



Honestly, it is very difficult to talk meaningfully about how FFXIV could play when your only MMO point of reference is FFXI.
#180 Jul 08 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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1,218 posts
Morsmorde wrote:


I love the internet haha. Only here can you find people bashing others' intelligence while at the same time not understanding grammar or even the meanings of simple words (default != defame lol).


"Default" refers to having your post rated down to the Default level. I guess he (or she) could have also said "rated down" but his (or her) meaning was pretty clear to me.
#181 Jul 08 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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456 posts
Quote:
The FFXI system, where "engaged" = "weapon drawn" is not the only way to determine who is engaged in battle.


I know its not the only way, I said that was just the way I was using it. He had a question or comment as to what I meant, and I was just saying how I see it and going by ffxi terms. Engage can be many different things, I was just clarifying how I was using it and what reference I was using.
#182 Jul 08 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Default
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629 posts
Kachi wrote:
I agree that it should be those who play well, but you lost me when you said "work." Games are meant to be played. If you want to work, get another job. As soon as it feels like work, I'm done, thanks. I've been playing games for over two decades. I've already had my patience tested to its limit. I'm done with repeating mundane, monotonous tasks just to clear a hurdle. I'm tired of killing a boss ten times when I've already proved I can kill him once, just to get a helmet. Challenge more than my patience or just let me plow through what little content the game actually has.


See... this is where you're wrong. Not that your opinion is wrong, but your assumption that everyone should share your opinion is what is wrong. I, for one, don't know of a game that literally hands EVERYTHING to anyone that can push the power button. Name any single-player RPG that did this, and I can assure you that the ratings for the game *specifically replay value* are very low. On the other hand, the games with the best puzzles that require some thinking or the ones that take a few extra kills of a certain monster to get the item you want are usually the ones that get rave reviews. I'll say this, nearly everyone who was born post-1987 and pre-1995 will tell you that FF7 is their favorite. It has items that are very worth getting, but require multiple kills of a specific mob or require a little bit of hard work to accomplish it.

I don't want Joe Shmoe coming in and being able to match my performance when he spends 10 minutes per month on the same game I spend an hour or so a day playing.

Another opinion I don't share with you, and I'm sure many others also disagree. I don't consider a game to be something that I should just "plow through" and be done. I can't see how you enjoy that, but that is your own opinion. I'm sure you don't understand why I actually enjoy killing said boss 10 times. My enjoyment isn't necessarily the spoils that said boss gives us, but the actual fight itself.

I actually enjoy gear-swapping, because it's a way for me to show off my hard work. I don't necessarily mean "hard work" as in working a job, but sometimes playing a game takes a bit of "hard work" as in dedication. I am not one that necessarily cares about e-peen crap, though big numbers are fun. I'm simply one that gets fulfillment out of people in my party saying, "I wish I could do what you're doing."
#183 Jul 08 2009 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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1,159 posts
Kachi wrote:
I agree that it should be those who play well, but you lost me when you said "work." Games are meant to be played. If you want to work, get another job. As soon as it feels like work, I'm done, thanks.


My sentiments exactly. I had that revelation last year. I realized I was doing something I didn't like doing anymore just so I can get some gear...so I can do that same thing better. I decided that sounded too much like I had a second job so I just quit games in general...haven't played one seriously in a long time...usually just 10 minutes one day, 30 another day.
#184 Jul 08 2009 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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66 posts
Quote:
Learn to understand context, please.

Protip: in these parts, "defaulted" = "having this post rated down to default (or lower)".


and

Quote:
"Default" refers to having your post rated down to the Default level. I guess he (or she) could have also said "rated down" but his (or her) meaning was pretty clear to me.


I humbly stand corrected; I had never heard the term before.

My criticism still stands on account the bad grammar, though :P

Quote:
I know its not the only way, I said that was just the way I was using it. He had a question or comment as to what I meant, and I was just saying how I see it and going by ffxi terms. Engage can be many different things, I was just clarifying how I was using it and what reference I was using.


The way you were using it?? I was the one that used the word first and then you criticized what I said (based on your own interpretation) afterwards. The other guy was simply defending me because your attack had no foundation considering that I could have simply meant something else (which I did). If you had understood that "engage" has several meaning then why did you criticize my proposal on the grounds of your narrow interpretation? Couldn't you have been civil and simply asked what I had meant, or at the very least have broken your argument into two parts (one considering one interpretation, the other considering the other)? You're a frustrating slice of pie, HocusP :P

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 12:33am by Morsmorde
#185 Jul 08 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
See... this is where you're wrong. Not that your opinion is wrong, but your assumption that everyone should share your opinion is what is wrong.


It may be that you're simply misunderstanding me, but I'm going to assume that you're not and you just tell me if I'm mistaken. And this will be long.

Now, all I'm saying is that myself and a lot of other -hardcore- gamers have already had our patience tested to the limit in game after game. And you may very well enjoy that kind of gameplay NOW, but eventually, it will bore you. It may be next week, and it may be next decade, but it will eventually get to you. And the reason for that is that you do not have the brain of a goldfish-- eventually you begin to recognize that you're doing the same thing over and over and there is nothing particularly rewarding about it anymore.

Quote:
I, for one, don't know of a game that literally hands EVERYTHING to anyone that can push the power button.


Hey, I'm not saying it shouldn't be challenging. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be -work-. Look at a popular game like Super Smash Bros. or Guitar Hero-- no one player has any particular advantage over another from the get go, but some are more skilled than others. But people still actually -work- very hard to get better at those games. The trick is that while they're "working" they're actually playing...

There's a difference between playing a game and improving as you do it, and just working hard to do better in a game. It's the difference between playing football to get better at football, and running through tires to get better at football. Which one is going to be fun for a long time, and which one will get old incredibly quick?

Quote:
Name any single-player RPG that did this, and I can assure you that the ratings for the game *specifically replay value* are very low.


Well given that most RPGs have some sort of leveling/equipment systems, it's really pretty subjective and relative to player skill which games would qualify. I at no point felt that I had to -work- to get better at FFT, or Earthbound, or ChronoTrigger-- these were all excellent games that never felt like they were wasting my time (a couple of rare drops in Earthbound spring to mind, but there were only two).

Quote:
On the other hand, the games with the best puzzles that require some thinking


Yes!
Quote:

or the ones that take a few extra kills of a certain monster to get the item you want are usually the ones that get rave reviews.


Oops, no. You were almost right.

Quote:
I'll say this, nearly everyone who was born post-1987 and pre-1995 will tell you that FF7 is their favorite. It has items that are very worth getting, but require multiple kills of a specific mob or require a little bit of hard work to accomplish it.


Help me out here. I liked FF7 a lot, but I can't recall any of these items you're talking about. Most of the really good Materia and Ultimate weapons were found, were they not? Yes, I recall doing a bit of level grinding to take on Emerald and Ruby, and... I hated that. It was a great game, but not every aspect of it was great.

Quote:
I don't want Joe Shmoe coming in and being able to match my performance when he spends 10 minutes per month on the same game I spend an hour or so a day playing.


In any decent game based on strategy or player skill, this won't be the case, unless they're just that much better of a player than you.

Quote:
I don't consider a game to be something that I should just "plow through" and be done. I can't see how you enjoy that, but that is your own opinion.


This you did misunderstand. I don't want to just plow through the game unless the game has been intentionally watered down to drag out the content. In other words, don't put water in my cola just so it lasts longer. Just give me the **** cola.

Quote:
I'm sure you don't understand why I actually enjoy killing said boss 10 times. My enjoyment isn't necessarily the spoils that said boss gives us, but the actual fight itself.


If it's actually an enjoyable fight (which in FFXI, they're usually too simple to be very enjoyable), then I might not mind fighting it 5 times, even 10 over a few years. But usually you end up fighting it several times in a row, or many more than 10 times. Why? Because at a 10% drop rate, you're not just fighting a mob 10 times for yourself, but 10 times for every one of your friends that wants the drop.

There's nothing preventing you from fighting a boss as many times as you want if you simply want to for enjoyment. But in FFXI you're forced to even if you don't want to provided you want to progress your character's equipment.

Well, I'll stop there. I think you will find my points a bit more agreeable as I have explained them.


____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#186 Jul 09 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Default
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629 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
I'll say this, nearly everyone who was born post-1987 and pre-1995 will tell you that FF7 is their favorite. It has items that are very worth getting, but require multiple kills of a specific mob or require a little bit of hard work to accomplish it.


Help me out here. I liked FF7 a lot, but I can't recall any of these items you're talking about. Most of the really good Materia and Ultimate weapons were found, were they not? Yes, I recall doing a bit of level grinding to take on Emerald and Ruby, and... I hated that. It was a great game, but not every aspect of it was great.


Obtaining Omnislash, achieving the pre-reqs to learning Great Gospel, mastering materia *specifically Enemy Skill and Ultima*.

Quote:
I don't want Joe Shmoe coming in and being able to match my performance when he spends 10 minutes per month on the same game I spend an hour or so a day playing.


In any decent game based on strategy or player skill, this won't be the case, unless they're just that much better of a player than you.
[/quote]

This is my point here. I like the balance that FFXI has. It seems to be a perfect balance between player skill and equipment enhancement. If your gear fails, then you fail. If your skill fails, then you fail. You have to have both, or you're not gonna be good.

Also, you re-iterated my point. Everyone has a different opinion on what is "play" and what is "work". Also, there are a couple definitions for the verb "work" which don't necessarily mean working a job. Perhaps I should have used the verb "strive" instead. No one wants to play a game that isn't fun to them, however, people have different opinions of what is fun. My dad, for example, loves mowing the grass. He recently purchased a few acres where he plans on building a new home in a few years when he retires. He and my mother at the moment live 3 hours away. Every weekend, though, they come into town, and his favorite thing to do each Saturday is to go to his property and spend a few hours mowing the grass. That is his "play".
#187 Jul 09 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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11,576 posts
I'm not sure that I'm understanding this whole argument in its entirety, so I'll just explain what I understand of the mechanics and then offer my thoughts on that.

At some point since I stopped playing, SE added the functionality to allow you to call one macro from another macro (or so I'm told). As a result, the "skilled" players (even those who don't use the windower) are gear swapping for pretty much everything, and quite often, they're swapping entire (or almost entire) sets of armor to really fine tune performance in different categories. Even tanks are swapping substantial chunks of their overall armor set based on circumstances, and healers are expected to have macros in place to mitigate the potential consequence of having a tank blink during an armor swap, drop the healer's target, and miss a critical heal.

Consequently, being qualified to label one's self as "skilled" has evolved to understand your particular job mechanics (never a bad thing to know), accumulate a wide array of gear (bound to happen if you play long enough) and then automate the swapping process through clever macro implementation (skill what?).

I prefer to think of a skilled player as someone who knows a given encounter well but more importantly, executes a strategy within the mechanics of that encounter fluidly and consistently. I prefer to think of a skilled player as someone who walks into a new encounter and is able to adapt quickly to a dynamic situation. I prefer to think of a skilled player as someone who can handle a situation gone wrong such that the slightest bump in the road of executing a given strategy doesn't cause said player to scramble and fall to bits not knowing how to recover. Notice that knowledge plays a key role in those situations, but you can still have the most forum/wiki obsessed uber dork who can put an Alliance to sleep in < 30 seconds with theorycraft ramblings but that doesn't mean you can throw them into a situation where they need to apply that knowledge and they'll succeed by default.

Skill could be well defined as the ability to quickly turn experience into competence, and I'm sure you'll forgive me for saying that pouring over forums learning about class mechanics and then accumulating gear and writing macros is sort of on the very fringes of the skill core. Ya, ya, "It's not just that you have the macros...you have to know when best to use them." I know. That's still knowledge coming into play, and doesn't indicate success by default. You still have to execute on that knowledge, and that execution is what defines skill.

I would prefer to see a system in place in FFXIV where a gear swap triggers a global cooldown. I would prefer to a see a system where players have to decide on the fly whether triggering that cooldown justifies the increase in performance they'll see form the gear swap. You want to swap 8 pieces of gear for a single digit increase to your % chance to hit/proc/whatever? Gonna cost you 8-12 seconds. Is it worth it? You decide.

Gear swapping in FFXI is only made possible by the lateral nature of end game itemization. You reach the cap and start accumulating gear and it doesn't take all that long before you're looking at situational upgrades instead of general upgrades. Will SE retain that concept in FFXIV? Quite possibly. I'd rather see vertical progression as opposed to lateral progression, but that's subjective preference.

I think the bottom line for me is that there are far better ways to demonstrate skill than to have multiple gear sets and pages upon pages of macros that automate your "skill" so that when it comes down to the fighting, you're still just selecting abilities and using them, rather than having a system that reflects your knowledge of the game min-maxing for you behind the scenes and labeling that as "skill".

To me, the macro system in FFXI served two purposes:

1) To automate the use of spells/abilities without the necessity of selecting them from a list menu
2) To automate communication on a game released for consoles when keyboards for consoles were not the standard.

Anything that has evolved from those basic concepts may certainly be clever and innovative, and my intent is not to suggest that those who swap gear are unskilled by default, but to label gear swapping as any substantial form of skill is somewhat delusional. Any hack can copy down a macro they found on a forum/wiki and append it in place of their basic spell/ability macro if they've accumulated the gear. I'd rather see people stick to the basics and not do dumbass things in groups than have people running around flipping e-goo all over everyone because they've been playing a game for years and the time + macros makes them think they've become something they're not.
#188 Jul 09 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
At some point since I stopped playing, SE added the functionality to allow you to call one macro from another macro (or so I'm told).

whoever told you this was lying.

Quote:
I would prefer to see a system in place in FFXIV where a gear swap triggers a global cooldown. I would prefer to a see a system where players have to decide on the fly whether triggering that cooldown justifies the increase in performance they'll see form the gear swap. You want to swap 8 pieces of gear for a single digit increase to your % chance to hit/proc/whatever? Gonna cost you 8-12 seconds. Is it worth it? You decide.

This is where opinions clash. You dislike gear swapping *for a reason you didn't specify*. I like maximization. As I stated earlier in the thread, I don't see any feasible way to accomplish maximization in an effective manner other than gearswapping or some glorified version of the like.


Quote:
Gear swapping in FFXI is only made possible by the lateral nature of end game itemization. You reach the cap and start accumulating gear and it doesn't take all that long before you're looking at situational upgrades instead of general upgrades. Will SE retain that concept in FFXIV? Quite possibly. I'd rather see vertical progression as opposed to lateral progression, but that's subjective preference.

not sure what game you were playing originally, but gear swapping occurs from level 20+. If you're a THF @ 40, you best not be full-timing your DEX rings, but at the same time, you best be swapping to them for SA. Just one example of many.


Quote:
I think the bottom line for me is that there are far better ways to demonstrate skill than to have multiple gear sets and pages upon pages of macros that automate your "skill" so that when it comes down to the fighting, you're still just selecting abilities and using them, rather than having a system that reflects your knowledge of the game min-maxing for you behind the scenes and labeling that as "skill".

This is where I believe you're confused. I don't know anyone that is claiming that gear swapping = skill. Rather, I claim that gear swapping properly generally walks hand in hand with skill. If someone doesn't have enough knowledge to swap the right gear in for whatever situation they're facing, then they probably aren't skilled enough to walk out alive. I'll admit that is this not always the case. The inverse, as well, is not always true, but for the majority of the time, you must admit that it's a stereotype that's well founded.


Quote:
To me, the macro system in FFXI served two purposes:

1) To automate the use of spells/abilities without the necessity of selecting them from a list menu
2) To automate communication on a game released for consoles when keyboards for consoles were not the standard.

Anything that has evolved from those basic concepts may certainly be clever and innovative, and my intent is not to suggest that those who swap gear are unskilled by default, but to label gear swapping as any substantial form of skill is somewhat delusional. Any hack can copy down a macro they found on a forum/wiki and append it in place of their basic spell/ability macro if they've accumulated the gear. I'd rather see people stick to the basics and not do dumbass things in groups than have people running around flipping e-goo all over everyone because they've been playing a game for years and the time + macros makes them think they've become something they're not.


Macros were placed into this game to do one thing: Allow the execution of one or more typed commands by the press of 2 buttons. One of these typed commands placed into the game is the /equip command.

Sure, any idiot can copy and paste something they see online. However, not everyone has the intelligence to back up what they find. Too many times do I see absurd gear swapped in. Pieces are used for the wrong situations. People use expensive garbage when there are better, cheaper alternatives. Heck... the majority of the people I come across don't even know that accuracy and attack both have caps. I love witnessing the DRG @ level 75 that's farming too weak mobs in full accuracy gear so he doesn't embarrassingly miss. I agree with you on the fact that you'd rather see someone who knows what they're doing rather than someone who thinks they're hot stuff because of their gear. Here's a piece of advice, though: There will be the same ratio of REAL players : idiots in any game whether gear swapping is allowed or not.
#189 Jul 09 2009 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I would prefer to see a system in place in FFXIV where a gear swap triggers a global cooldown. I would prefer to a see a system where players have to decide on the fly whether triggering that cooldown justifies the increase in performance they'll see form the gear swap. You want to swap 8 pieces of gear for a single digit increase to your % chance to hit/proc/whatever? Gonna cost you 8-12 seconds. Is it worth it? You decide.


I agree, this is exactly what I've been saying too. Having even a minor penalty to gear swapping will increase the strategy required--it'll force people to have to consider tradeoffs and at the same time limit the ridiculousness of FFXI's gear swapping.

FFXI's system is just too much:

-It makes inventory management too much of a headache (and not just because of the number of items you can hold; I don't want to hold a hundred pieces of gear even if I can).

-It decreases the amount of strategy required to play the game. People are simply able to wear the best weapon swinging gear for the mob their facing and then macro in everything they need to maximize their job abilities and whatnot (and then macro it out when they're done with that move). Equivalent statements can be made for non-weapon swinging classes.

-It increases the gear homogeneity among players; because people aren't facing tradeoffs and can simply macro in the best gear for each individual thing they do they're much more limited in their gear setups. If there was no gear swapping people would have to balance their gear with respect to all aspects of what their job is supposed to do, not just one at a time, and therefore you'd see people running around in much more diverse setups. Some people might use their Head slot to boost weaponskill damage, their Body slot for general weapon swinging, and their Legs slot for increasing the effectiveness of some job ability; other people could decide to mix those up.
#190 Jul 09 2009 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
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Morsmorde wrote:
I agree, this is exactly what I've been saying too. Having even a minor penalty to gear swapping will increase the strategy required--it'll force people to have to consider tradeoffs and at the same time limit the ridiculousness of FFXI's gear swapping.

FFXI's system is just too much:

-It makes inventory management too much of a headache (and not just because of the number of items you can hold; I don't want to hold a hundred pieces of gear even if I can).

-It decreases the amount of strategy required to play the game. People are simply able to wear the best weapon swinging gear for the mob their facing and then macro in everything they need to maximize their job abilities and whatnot (and then macro it out when they're done with that move). Equivalent statements can be made for non-weapon swinging classes.

-It increases the gear homogeneity among players; because people aren't facing tradeoffs and can simply macro in the best gear for each individual thing they do they're much more limited in their gear setups. If there was no gear swapping people would have to balance their gear with respect to all aspects of what their job is supposed to do, not just one at a time, and therefore you'd see people running around in much more diverse setups. Some people might use their Head slot to boost weaponskill damage, their Body slot for general weapon swinging, and their Legs slot for increasing the effectiveness of some job ability; other people could decide to mix those up.


Once again... not everyone shares your opinion. Some people, myself included, PREFER the maximization aspect of gear swapping.

Also, there is indeed strategy involved with gear swapping. More specifically when soloing than when partying. But to give an example, my SCH nuking in end-game situations *specifically in sky*. SCH gear is rather lackluster in all aspects. SCH on the other hand is extremely adaptable. It's very possible to have 2 SCHs geared in completely different manners and still reach a very common performance in the end simply because of the adaptability the job offers. Are you saying that there's no strategy there? Sure there is. I see plenty of strategy in selecting my gear. I myself am working on a hyper-INT build. I don't know any other SCHs doing so, but I am close to finishing it, and it's showing great promise. BLM, on the other hand, has a hard time pulling this off because of less adaptability.

My point is this: Don't push your opinion off on everyone else. If you dislike maximization, then don't utilize it. I won't invite you to my party, but that's my own prerogative. Your opinion, though is to remove it entirely from the game. That is a mistake. If I cannot play in the manner I wish to play, I most likely will not play the game. Implementation of a feature is not forcing any person to utilize said feature. Restriction of a feature, on the other hand, is forcing EVERYONE to NOT utilize it.
#191 Jul 09 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Obtaining Omnislash, achieving the pre-reqs to learning Great Gospel, mastering materia *specifically Enemy Skill and Ultima*.


Ah yes, that kind of great fun in which you A-button mash, or fight the same enemies over and over (I recall spending a lot of time in the underwater pirate ship).

Yes, that's lame. Sure, your first time it can even be fun, but it gets less and less fun pretty quick. I've played many single player RPGs, and honestly even playing one MMO for any real length of time is enough to exhaust most people on that kind of gameplay.

It's not really a matter of opinion. It's a matter of how much stamina you have for that kind of play. And you have it now, all core gamers have at some point had an ample supply, but it dwindles. Eventually you'll feel that your patience and ability to "work hard" have been tested enough.

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It seems to be a perfect balance between player skill and equipment enhancement. If your gear fails, then you fail. If your skill fails, then you fail. You have to have both, or you're not gonna be good.


See, but this IS the problem. Your gear in FFXI has so much to do with how good your character is, but is not actually a reward for skill. You don't get better gear by being better as a player. You get better gear by doing the same thing over and over with long camps and rare drops. Equipment enhancement in FFXI quickly becomes another word for grinding. So yes, if your skill fails, you fail, and if your grinding fails, you fail.

But I've already grinded enough of my life away in other games. Why should myself and other vet gamers put ourselves through it all over again? Why should casual gamers who don't like the grind in the first place? Sure, we don't have to, but if this game is not for either of our demographics, then who is SE making this game for?

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Everyone has a different opinion on what is "play" and what is "work". Also, there are a couple definitions for the verb "work" which don't necessarily mean working a job. Perhaps I should have used the verb "strive" instead. No one wants to play a game that isn't fun to them, however, people have different opinions of what is fun. My dad, for example, loves mowing the grass. He recently purchased a few acres where he plans on building a new home in a few years when he retires. He and my mother at the moment live 3 hours away. Every weekend, though, they come into town, and his favorite thing to do each Saturday is to go to his property and spend a few hours mowing the grass. That is his "play".


And you know, I think that's just great. If you like doing mundane tasks, that's wonderful. But there are already HUNDREDS of games that allow you to do that, and dozens of them are MMOs. Really, that describes virtually EVERY other MMO. So you'll excuse me if I'm tired of those games and want something different, because most people don't consider that play. They consider it work, and they call it work because it is work. They're not enjoying it. They're doing it purely to get something they want. All the fun is concentrated in that one drop, and everything that leads up to it is a frustrating chore.

If you think camping and grinding are fun, then please enjoy all the games out there that already let you do that, but don't wish that on FFXIV.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#192 Jul 09 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let's hope they don't put swaps in, then. The whole, "I won't play with people because they don't do what I think they should!" aspect of FFXI is part of what's driven off many, many players. It's still possible to better yourself in play without being an *******.
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#193 Jul 09 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let's hope they don't put swaps in, then. The whole, "I won't play with people because they don't do what I think they should!" aspect of FFXI is part of what's driven off many, many players. It's still possible to better yourself in play without being an @#%^.


I completely agree.

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If you dislike maximization, then don't utilize it. I won't invite you to my party, but that's my own prerogative. Your opinion, though is to remove it entirely from the game. That is a mistake. If I cannot play in the manner I wish to play, I most likely will not play the game. Implementation of a feature is not forcing any person to utilize said feature. Restriction of a feature, on the other hand, is forcing EVERYONE to NOT utilize it.


What? I never said I dislike maximization, first of all. And second, why are you under the assumption that maximization can not occur without gear swapping?

Without gear swapping you can still run numbers. Based on the expected length of a boss fight you can determine the approximate number of times you're going to use a WS, the approximate number of times you're going to use certain job abilities, and the approximate time spent just sitting there swinging your weapon. With those numbers you can build a "perfect" build for taking that boss on. That'll satisfy all the hardcore perfectionists (who, I'll remind you, do not compose the majority of players), won't it?

Also, I'm not saying to completely eliminate gear swapping. I'm saying that a system with at least some penalty (a "gear swap stun") would help to transfer some time spent grinding towards some time spent strategizing :P As a long time final fantasy fan I'm all for strategy > grinding.

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Also, there is indeed strategy involved with gear swapping. More specifically when soloing than when partying. But to give an example, my SCH nuking in end-game situations *specifically in sky*. SCH gear is rather lackluster in all aspects. SCH on the other hand is extremely adaptable. It's very possible to have 2 SCHs geared in completely different manners and still reach a very common performance in the end simply because of the adaptability the job offers. Are you saying that there's no strategy there? Sure there is. I see plenty of strategy in selecting my gear. I myself am working on a hyper-INT build. I don't know any other SCHs doing so, but I am close to finishing it, and it's showing great promise. BLM, on the other hand, has a hard time pulling this off because of less adaptability.


Good for you? I'm not saying that situational gear isn't strategic, I'm saying that being able to focus maximization on each ability, one at a time, usually forces players to be much more cookie cutter when they're approaching the same mob. If you had to focus maximization on all abilities, all at the same time, the increased complexity would allow players to build their gear sets more dynamically, even when they're facing the same mob. Players can "maximize" different things based on their play style and exactly what they want to contribute in fights much more easily. Right now everyone is able to maximize just about everything; I think that's ridiculous. Too often it makes gear choosing boring and cookie cutter: you either have X gear, are maximized, and look exactly like everyone else, or you're gimped. It sucks.

Sure, the increased complexity won't allow you to build characters "perfectly" with nearly as much ease, but really, for everyone who doesn't have OCD it sucks to have to go through a bunch of grinding so that they can wear the exact same "maximized" gear that everyone else is wearing. I'm all for maximization, I just don't think it should be as easy as it is in FFXI (in theory), or as hard as it is in FFXI (in grinding).

Edit: For the record, I do have OCD, and I totally love maximizing, I just don't think it should be as easy and make me look as cookie cutter as it did in FFXI.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 4:55pm by Morsmorde
#194 Jul 09 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Default
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If you think camping and grinding are fun, then please enjoy all the games out there that already let you do that, but don't wish that on FFXIV.


Don't tell people what to wish for the new game, people wish for how they want the game to be. Just like you wish for how you want the game to be, other people wish for how they want the game to be. There are games out there that don't require grinds and camping (most not mmos), so you can already enjoy and play those games also.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 5:04pm by HocusP
#195 Jul 09 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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I will, because there is a greater demand and a shorter supply for such games. When the significant minority of players have the significant majority of games to choose from, there's a problem. The reason is purely because the game designers don't know any better, so of course I'm going to raise a fuss. Squeaky wheel gets the oil.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#196 Jul 09 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Morsmorde wrote:

Sure, the increased complexity won't allow you to build characters "perfectly" with nearly as much ease, but really, for everyone who doesn't have OCD it sucks to have to go through a bunch of grinding so that they can wear the exact same "maximized" gear that everyone else is wearing. I'm all for maximization, I just don't think it should be as easy as it is in FFXI (in theory), or as hard as it is in FFXI (in grinding).

Edit: For the record, I do have OCD, and I totally love maximizing, I just don't think it should be as easy and make me look as cookie cutter as it did in FFXI.


Why does everyone equate Gear swapping with grinding? Sure, to outfit everyone with some crazy awesome item that everyone will lust over, you have to grind something a few times. How about, instead of removing gear-swaps to destroy the grinding aspect, they just make equipment much more customizable?

If you could take a good piece of gear and augment it *not with the ******** job that SE did with the last patch* to something that greatly fits your needs for that piece, then that would alleviate the need that everyone has for obtaining the exact same gear as everyone else. If I could take a dragon harness and augment what it already has to put onto it, say accuracy +5 and haste +4%. That wouldn't be a game-breaking augment, but I would have my own unique TP body piece that would easily hold up with other TP body pieces that THF can wear. If all gear was a little customizable to some extent, then there would be much less cookie-cutter players. No reason to remove gear-swaps at this point, because there would be much less call for grinding specific mobs to get a specific drop that looks and performs exactly like the same drop everyone else already has. This would also increase strategy a bit, because there would be a lot less of the "this piece is just better, use it." It would be "If I put this on here, what will it help and what would it hurt? Is it going to be better or worse for this?"

Strategy isn't always just about weighing pros and cons. Sometimes, there's little to consider with cons. Sometimes there's a lot. Sometimes, it's possible that you know all the information ahead of time and can plan perfectly before hand. Sometimes you go in and have to adapt everything based on what happens.

BTW, if you think removing gear swaps will remove grinding, you're wrong. People will always strive for what's best. Everyone will cookie-cutter themselves. It's a vicious cycle that will repeat itself in every game until a company decides to come up with something unique and successful in alleviating it. Removing gear swapping is not unique, and won't be successful in alleviating grinding.
#197 Jul 09 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Removing gear-swapping in FFXI would remove a lot of grinding, yes. I shouldn't have to spell it out, but if you have 16 ideal pieces rather than 50, there's a lot less grinding involved.

But otherwise I don't think anyone is saying that gear swapping and grinding have to go hand in hand. It's just that they typically do.

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Why does everyone equate Gear swapping with grinding? Sure, to outfit everyone with some crazy awesome item that everyone will lust over, you have to grind something a few times.


Maybe you just never got that far along in any game? I don't know. But I can tell you that the only way I could progress my character in FFXI after three years of play involved heavy grinding, and that's a generous assessment considering I was doing heavy grinding just to reach that point.

Gearswapping is mainly just a badly implemented game mechanic. Grinding is a completely separate issue for the most part, and is poor game design.

And let me also say that while removing gear swapping in FFXI would indeed absolve a lot of the grinding for gear, it would also create the problem of not giving players much to do as they get all the best gear with relative ease. But that just goes to show what a bandaid gearswapping is for the gaping gunshot hole in game design that FFXI suffers from.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 3:49pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#198 Jul 09 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
At some point since I stopped playing, SE added the functionality to allow you to call one macro from another macro (or so I'm told).

whoever told you this was lying.


It must be a windower-exclusive function, then.

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I would prefer to see a system in place in FFXIV where a gear swap triggers a global cooldown. I would prefer to a see a system where players have to decide on the fly whether triggering that cooldown justifies the increase in performance they'll see form the gear swap. You want to swap 8 pieces of gear for a single digit increase to your % chance to hit/proc/whatever? Gonna cost you 8-12 seconds. Is it worth it? You decide.

This is where opinions clash. You dislike gear swapping *for a reason you didn't specify*. I like maximization. As I stated earlier in the thread, I don't see any feasible way to accomplish maximization in an effective manner other than gearswapping or some glorified version of the like.


I didn't say I dislike gear swapping. I simply said that swapping gear should be tied to a global cooldown like every other action you take in combat.

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Gear swapping in FFXI is only made possible by the lateral nature of end game itemization. You reach the cap and start accumulating gear and it doesn't take all that long before you're looking at situational upgrades instead of general upgrades. Will SE retain that concept in FFXIV? Quite possibly. I'd rather see vertical progression as opposed to lateral progression, but that's subjective preference.

not sure what game you were playing originally, but gear swapping occurs from level 20+. If you're a THF @ 40, you best not be full-timing your DEX rings, but at the same time, you best be swapping to them for SA. Just one example of many.


There will always be a component of any MMO community that feels min/maxing in every possible scenario is fun and/or necessary. My hope is that those people would realize that they are in the minority, and that the majority do not appreciate when that sort of thinking crosses over into an expectation of other people. That particular brand of **** retentive elitism has a place, but its place is not a PUG.

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This is where I believe you're confused. I don't know anyone that is claiming that gear swapping = skill. Rather, I claim that gear swapping properly generally walks hand in hand with skill. If someone doesn't have enough knowledge to swap the right gear in for whatever situation they're facing, then they probably aren't skilled enough to walk out alive. I'll admit that is this not always the case. The inverse, as well, is not always true, but for the majority of the time, you must admit that it's a stereotype that's well founded.


That's an interesting opinion. I think you're dramatizing the benefits of min-maxing a little bit.

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Macros were placed into this game to do one thing: Allow the execution of one or more typed commands by the press of 2 buttons. One of these typed commands placed into the game is the /equip command.


Yes, /equip is a typed command you can use with a macro. You assume that means that SE intended for gear swapping for each and every little thing to become the standard. Just like SE originally intended for NIN to be tanks, amirite?

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There will be the same ratio of REAL players : idiots in any game whether gear swapping is allowed or not.


Ya, and I prefer to associate myself with the REAL players...you know, the ones who keep the overall objective in mind and don't alienate themselves from the bulk of the community with elitist dorkspeak. There's a fine line between understanding how things work and applying that knowledge to meet a performance requirement for a particular encounter and overkilling everything for the sake of...whatever. When you start looking down on others because they don't share your view of mandated perfection, you've crossed that line.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 3:54pm by AureliusSir
#199 Jul 09 2009 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Long post.. apologies in advance lol:

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No, I've already addressed them with REASONS. All I'm getting in return is sh*tty counterarguments that no intelligent person would dignify with a further counterargument, strawman arguments, and "I'M NOT ACKNOWLEDGING YOUR POINT SO IT'S LIKE YOU DIDN'T EVEN MAKE ONE." I'd be an idiot to keep arguing with someone who just pretends like I'm not even making arguments.

So yes, I'm not restating things that have already been said by myself and several others because certain people have proven themselves selectively blind. But I'm not going LALALA, I'm going, "You're @#%^ing retarded."

GASP. And yet, you're still wrong. Hm, how does that work? Because the few people you're talking about are not the majority of people I'm talking about. I'm not going to address this again until you've shown me that you know what a strawman argument is and can somehow convince me that that's not exactly what you're doing.

I'd stop banging your head against the wall about it. You'll only lose more brain cells.

Alright, trying to return to civility...


The more and more you say the more it sounds like you're making a strawman argument. ~.~ I am, and have always been, arguing about the max/min aspect and all that the mechanics that gear swapping addresses. I have on multiple occasions told you that everything involving "realism" has no part in this argument because we have already stated that we don't want people blinking in and out and have offered counterpoints many times; like stating that people could choose a set of town gear and stay in that regardless of what they swap into. I have made several key points, like it helping the economy, and how armor is almost always never made useless, but none of them were argued against with reasons. In fact, almost none of them were even acknowledged. We have had no problem with changing the cosmetic aspects of gear swapping, but we want to keep the mechanical aspects of gearswapping alive. That is why I said that the materia example is the same. It's because it only changes the cosmetic applications, which can also easily be done while keeping "gear swapping".

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Except swapping materia would be BY DESIGN and would be very obviously promoted by the game, AND not penalized by taking up tons of inventory space and being a graphic disaster.


And gear swapping as well, would be by design and promoted by the game. With all the hundreds of situational gear implemented into the gear over the course of it's run-time, how can you honestly say it's not promoted? The only problem with it is, as I said before and you just agreed now, the inventory space problem. I already mentioned that this was a problem with ffxi's inventory system and not the gear swapping system. In ffxiv guess where unused materia would probably be held? Your inventory. It succumbs to the same problems. We want to fix the problems, not switch to a new system that requires the same fixes. The graphic disaster point is moot, because like I said before we want that part to be changed to work.

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Hey, I'd have been happy to do that long ago if it weren't for a certain tard unwilling to concede that I was right about that. But you should also acknowledge that most people don't have a problem with the general principles of gearswapping and are purely concerned with the crappy way in which it was implemented in FFXI. A few people are arguing it. And most of them probably wouldn't mind nearly as much if it were better implemented.


That's why we kept saying a realism argument had no merits. It's something that should be changed anyway and would have absolutely no effect on the actual mechanics of gear-swapping. (Save blinking causing you to lose target. Although I think we agreed on that one early on. Not sure.)

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But if we're talking purely about the game design problems with it, I'm really not convinced that the "horizontal progression" gearswapping affords is much better than "vertical progression." It never really thrilled me when I would have the best available gear and then an update would throw better pieces of gear at me that I'd have to replace them with. That's one advantage to making it the system similar in principle but entirely different in implementation. With materia for example, you could make it so that every materia had some value and use, so that you wouldn't even have to ever get rid of materia that you had attained. Or you could put a limit on it so that there's some strategy in picking your pieces (like building a deck).


All good ideas, but would work exactly the same with gear. What you described you not wanting though is exactly what vertical progression gives. In a horizontal progression you're not going to replace your gear when you get new ones. A lot of the old ones are going to stay worthwhile. In a vertical progression when you get new gear, old gear is completely replaced. And if you can't gear-swap, all old gear is going to be worthless. Let's take my leaping boots for example. They were pretty overpowered and lasted me from when I got them(24) to 73. At that point I replaced them with the better dragon boots. (Vertical progression.) And even now at 75 I use them. But I don't use them for everything except TP like I used to, I only use them for solo TA. (Horizontal progression) Without gear-swapping, they would have been worthless and replaced much, much earlier. I probably wouldn't have even bought the dragon boots.

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But the problems with the system in FFXI are not just cosmetic, though they are the major complaint. It's that the equipment system is basically a card game, and a really bad card game. I'm fine with a -good- "card game." But I'm also fine with throwing that out altogether and making your performance in the game less about what you -have- and more about what you -do-.


Aye, I've stated that it's not implemented that well. I'm hoping that I can look forward to equipping a bunch of gear and then defining that as a certain "set" in game, and that with a simple /equip set "Trick Attack" I would automatically swap into that set without my character blinking. And I'm hoping that we have plenty of inventory space to allow us to do this easily. I'm fine with them using "materia" or something else.. but if they do it needs to work just the same way.

Personally, I don't want a game that's only about what you do and has nothing to do with what you have, because then no matter how much you improve your character it's not going to matter. But a balance between the two would be great. Take thief in ffxi for example. It depends heavily on gear. If you don't have different equipment setups you're likely going to fail in comparison to other thieves.. but it only relies heavily on skill. If you can't coordinate yourself and etc, you will fail in comparison to other thieves. The good thieves are the ones who are both skilled and both geared.

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Or SE could design monsters that require different approaches to tackle (and therefore different gear sets).


That's a possibility, but I have a feeling that people would be even more ****** off by having to carry a whole bunch of gear sets for each different type of mob they fight and/or introduce than to have to carry a smaller bunch of gear sets to cover everything. I'd personally go with the 'monsters change tactics and therefore require a gear chance mid-battle' thing more than having different monsters require different things. One could say that ffxi already had the latter. If I was fighting colibri I needed to max out on haste while still keeping acc and attack strong. But if I was fighting kirin I needed to max out on acc and attack while not really caring about haste.

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Also, so long as there's a minor penalty for gear swapping (having to disengage to change gear before reengaging, or implementing a gear swap "stun") you'd still be able to use different pieces of gear in the same fight--it just wouldn't be ridiculous like it is in FFXI (and I don't know how anyone can argue that it isn't totally ridiculous in FFXI).


Erm.. I would only agree that it's ridiculous if you're talking about the cosmetic aspect of it. And I would rather not penalize the mechanics of something because the cosmetics didn't match. It would be much easier to just change the cosmetics to actually work. Or if all else fails and you can't fix the cosmetics go to the materia system so that people can't ***** about realism.

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I find that to be a much bigger con than you're making it out to be, especially when I believe that SE can design a system that promotes both the economy and strategy. Unrestricted gear swapping just isn't the answer.
I believe they could as well, but I also believe that under such a system that requires you to say, disengage to change gear, the general populous would then not bother to change gear at all because it's too much of a hassle. For most fights at least. Large HNM type fights might be different. And having a HNM in an instanced area that has an effect that stuns you for changing gear would be interesting and welcome. But having it everywhere would be too much. Take ballista for example. They imposed a short 2-3 second stun every time you change equipment. Because of this people would just mix/match their gear to get the most "meh" out of their gear. As a thief for example, I would never take off my rogue's poulains because I was afraid that I would need the extra 15 seconds of flee and as such never used any beneficial evasion, haste, or acc feet. In many matches I didn't even need to flee many times, and even when I did 30 seconds was more than enough. Thus I had much wasted potential by not using better feet. The reason they stunned people for switching gear in ballista however.. was because SE fails and couldn't think of a way to stop people from blinking and thus stop people from forcing others to lose their target by switching gear.

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Same happens in BC events, demanding the perfect party for merits, etc..
That's more players being idiots than anything else. Countless times I have done BCs with linkshell members only to have them say "wow.. thf can actually do something in this?". They're brainwashed by the same type of idiots who think you NEED warriors in your merit parties to do anything. While I have been in a thf nin nin party that got 24k/hr.

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We can never fully escape the cookie cutter builds, though. I just want the variety to come more from the player end than the code. How that should come to pass, it's difficult to elaborate without any real info on the job system or combat. At its simplest, saying one aspect of a job shouldn't be so glaringly overpowered compared to another that there is only one no-brainer choice (Hey look, there's some strategy for you~). We see that now with merits and the main topic in question here.


This is something I can agree on. Although I will very much miss how the old system worked. In ffxi you can use the math formulas that many of us have painstakingly derived and figure out what piece of gear is best for each action. You'll notice that every 75 thf should be wearing rogue armlets +1 for anything involving trick attack. This is because we've proven that it is the best piece of gear in the hand slot for everything trick attack. But we cannot use math to figure out weapons, because too many variables are involved. We don't know which outputs more damage over time when including everything: Blau/sirocco, X's/Blau, P-harpe/Blau. There's really no way to find out and thus people will not be all using the same thing. I probably will not like being able to know what's best, but having more things like that, where we can't figure out what's best and that we only know that they're all good, is something I could eventually adapt to.

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It ISN'T hardcore or intense from a STRATEGIC standpoint. Figuring out what to use is easy. It IS hardcore from a grinding standpoint. Actually getting the gear takes hours and days.

But let me break down this oh-so difficult strategy for us. You figure out which gear works best for each spell/ability/WS, which these days takes all of five minutes even if you're an idiot. You write out the macro lines. Then you press an extra macro or two every time you use that spell/ability/WS. It's a perfect solution-- the gameplay in FFXI is *yawn* slow-paced, so pressing extra buttons livens things up. And if you only get one set of gear, you'll quickly run out of things to do, so now you can get 5 times the gear for a single job for all those different situations.
Well, to be fair, finding out what to use is far from easy. There's a lot of complicated math that goes into it. <.<; It does NOT just take 5 minutes to figure out what's best, and you can't do it even if you're an idiot. You first consider your enemy, and then consider the rest of your gear, and then factor in everything.. fstr, dstr, cratio, pdif, level correction, haste, delay, etc. And then you only know what's best on that one enemy, sometimes it's actually too close to call so you don't know. Sometimes it's actually worse for you because of your other gear. It's not going to always be best. I never use my optical hat vs colibri or mamool, but against jailer or hope or something else I just might. There is no "this is the best". There is only a "this is the best for this specific enemy", even though there sometimes isn't even that. FFXI just has too many cookie-cutter mobs, not cookie-cutter setups. If I want to merit.. I'm going to be either fighting mamool ja or colibri. This is a problem with the game and not with the equipment swapping. If ffxi had many more viable enemies to fight then there would be a plethora more equipment setups.

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I agree that it should be those who play well, but you lost me when you said "work." Games are meant to be played. If you want to work, get another job. As soon as it feels like work, I'm done, thanks. I've been playing games for over two decades. I've already had my patience tested to its limit. I'm done with repeating mundane, monotonous tasks just to clear a hurdle. I'm tired of killing a boss ten times when I've already proved I can kill him once, just to get a helmet. Challenge more than my patience or just let me plow through what little content the game actually has.


You can't have a game without work. Why? Because work isn't timesinks and ********* Work is challenge. And some challenges DO require time. (Airships are a timesink, I'm not arguing that things like that are good.) In FFX if I wanted to get all the best weapons in the game, I needed to do a ******** of work. I needed to dodge 200 frieking lightning bolts in a row? Was it worth it for me? No, so I didn't do it. Was it worth it for other people? Yes! When I wanted to get tidus's best weapon I had to complete the chocobo thingy with a time or 0.0; Was it hard for me to do it? Did it require a decent amount of work? Yes. But it was fun to do! And it felt like I actually accomplished something when I did it. There were also times that I almost broke my controller though. (those ******* birds cheat)

Games are hobbys, they're there to provide you somewhere to waste time and to challenge yourself. Games are not just based on skill alone, and do require some effort to get things done before you can combine it with your skill to do something. You can always go extreme and attempt to go through a game naked.. but that's for hardcore people who are super-skilled. <.<;

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Hey, I'm not saying it shouldn't be challenging. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be -work-. Look at a popular game like Super Smash Bros. or Guitar Hero-- no one player has any particular advantage over another from the get go, but some are more skilled than others. But people still actually -work- very hard to get better at those games. The trick is that while they're "working" they're actually playing...

There's a difference between playing a game and improving as you do it, and just working hard to do better in a game. It's the difference between playing football to get better at football, and running through tires to get better at football. Which one is going to be fun for a long time, and which one will get old incredibly quick?


I could see how this would apply.. but I just don't view ffxi, and the way that you obtain most gear in this sense. There are very few things that actually work the way you describe you hate, and most of us who play ffxi will agree that those should be changed. Dynamis is boring because it's the same thing over and over again to get relic gear. So of course when I'm pulling I pull medium-big sized links to spice things up and to keep things not the same. That way I'm having fun while playing and it doesn't feel like work. If I'm doing something like einherjar and odin, it never feels like work because it's never the same exact thing. We agree that things that are annoyingly repetitive need to be changed, but there aren't many things that actually fit the bill.
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#200 Jul 09 2009 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Had to break it into 2 posts because I had too many quotes, lol:


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Well given that most RPGs have some sort of leveling/equipment systems, it's really pretty subjective and relative to player skill which games would qualify. I at no point felt that I had to -work- to get better at FFT, or Earthbound, or ChronoTrigger-- these were all excellent games that never felt like they were wasting my time (a couple of rare drops in Earthbound spring to mind, but there were only two).
I spent plenty of time working to get better in FFT. I had to go multiple extra battles to level jobs to unlock other jobs. I have to redo certain boss battles many times because I was unable to steal his gear before killing him. I never felt like fft was wasting my time, but in truth it was only a video game that was doing nothing other than wasting my time. I knew this and continued to play because I enjoyed the challenge, I enjoyed the work, and I enjoyed the storyline,etc.

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Help me out here. I liked FF7 a lot, but I can't recall any of these items you're talking about. Most of the really good Materia and Ultimate weapons were found, were they not? Yes, I recall doing a bit of level grinding to take on Emerald and Ruby, and... I hated that. It was a great game, but not every aspect of it was great.
To get certain materias you needed to master every single materia of that color. Stuff like that for example.

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If it's actually an enjoyable fight (which in FFXI, they're usually too simple to be very enjoyable), then I might not mind fighting it 5 times, even 10 over a few years. But usually you end up fighting it several times in a row, or many more than 10 times. Why? Because at a 10% drop rate, you're not just fighting a mob 10 times for yourself, but 10 times for every one of your friends that wants the drop.

There's nothing preventing you from fighting a boss as many times as you want if you simply want to for enjoyment. But in FFXI you're forced to even if you don't want to provided you want to progress your character's equipment.

Well, I'll stop there. I think you will find my points a bit more agreeable as I have explained them.


I agree about the fights that are bull, like.. killing an NM over and over like eastern shadow for something. But there aren't really any fights like that that I can think of. Dynamis Lord always threw a curve-ball, bahamut was always fun and quick. He probably would have been funner if we didn't zerg him lol. Odin was always different, always interesting, always tough, and close to wiping a few times. Sometimes we actually did wipe. Ultima and Omega were always fun fights. Maybe it's because I'm not in an "HNM" shell that burns people out and does things for hours upon hours. I'm in an endgame linkshell that does dynamis, limbus, einherjar, sky, sea, znm, salvage, etc. And every event we have fun. If it's something that we can ***** around a little bit in we ***** around. Every dynamis my goal when not pulling is to try and mpk some party members by trick attacking them when fighting monks. Except for camping NMs for gear, which is something most of us would agree with needs to be changed, I've never felt like I was doing "pure orz work" with ffxi to get gear. I was always having fun while doing it.

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I think the bottom line for me is that there are far better ways to demonstrate skill than to have multiple gear sets and pages upon pages of macros that automate your "skill" so that when it comes down to the fighting, you're still just selecting abilities and using them, rather than having a system that reflects your knowledge of the game min-maxing for you behind the scenes and labeling that as "skill".


I don't think many of us are referring to having gear, or gearswapping itself as skill. Gear swapping is just something you do in ffxi, it's not something that takes skill. All the skill goes into how you play the game, as you said, and I'd rather we increase the amount of skill that you can put into the game not by getting rid of gear swapping or inducing a penalty, but by furthering the game to allow for more things to be possible. There was this one rpg I played at my friends house where you could guard enemy attacks and make them do less damage by hitting a certain button right when they hit you. Enhancing the battle mechanics of the game is something I really want, and I'm sure you all do too. But I really can't see getting rid of equipment swapping having a positive effect on that.

Gear swapping isn't only possible at end game because of horizonal progression. It only helps the games horizonal progression, and even helps the vertical progression now that I think about it. I must have started swapping gear on my thf when I got into crawlers nest. I should have been doing so sooner.. but I was a bit gimp back then :x

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-It makes inventory management too much of a headache (and not just because of the number of items you can hold; I don't want to hold a hundred pieces of gear even if I can).

-It decreases the amount of strategy required to play the game. People are simply able to wear the best weapon swinging gear for the mob their facing and then macro in everything they need to maximize their job abilities and whatnot (and then macro it out when they're done with that move). Equivalent statements can be made for non-weapon swinging classes.

-It increases the gear homogeneity among players; because people aren't facing tradeoffs and can simply macro in the best gear for each individual thing they do they're much more limited in their gear setups. If there was no gear swapping people would have to balance their gear with respect to all aspects of what their job is supposed to do, not just one at a time, and therefore you'd see people running around in much more diverse setups. Some people might use their Head slot to boost weaponskill damage, their Body slot for general weapon swinging, and their Legs slot for increasing the effectiveness of some job ability; other people could decide to mix those up.


* Erm.. not really. As a thief I'm one of the jobs that use the most equipment swaps. Right up there with rdm. I do not have hundreds of pieces of gear. When I go into a very important fight, like odin I have: 4 head pieces, 4 neck pieces, 3 earrings, 3 bodies, 4 hands, 5 rings, 2 backs, 3 belts, 3 legs, and 4 feets. If it wasn't as important as odin I wouldn't even have that much.

* I honestly can't see how you think gear swapping takes away from strategy. If there's no gear swapping, then people will just wear whatever is best for that enemy as well. There's absolutely no difference. The only thing that changes is instead of maximizing your characters potential you're choosing a median for your character. That has nothing to do with strategy. You put exactly the same amount of work into figuring out what's best. Strategy should come from enhancing other battle mechanics.

* Homogeneity isn't exactly a bad thing, but it is something I'd like to see lessened. But I'd rather it be done via a different method. Having monsters change tactics or alter themselves midfight, something like that. Not gimping our characters so that people aren't exactly sure what the best combination is. (Which we will eventually find out, just like how it took us a while to figure out what's best for ffxi.)

You have to realize it took years upon years before we were able to figure out the exact mathematics involved to figure out what's best. Back before CoP a lot of theives would use cotehardies for weapon skills, little did we know that the -chr is actually bad for us. It wasn't until a bunch of crazy jps and nas went through a bunch of painstaking processes to figure out formulas that we could find out what was best for certain situations. But there are still many situations we can't figure out. In order for us to find out what's best we need to know the enemys defense and evasion, agi and vit. Pretty much the only enemy we know this information for are greater colibri and some of the mamool ja. There's very few homogeneity during hnm fights because we don't know it's stats because we didn't spend days doing tests to find it out. And even then, sometimes it's not the best because of some other equipment that you're wearing. This is not a problem of gear swapping, this is a problem with human beings doing years of research to better themselves to their absolute max.

And finally, last but not least: A lot of you seem to think that gear swapping is the reason jackasses don't invite people who don't gear swap for every little thing. This has nothing to do with gear swapping. ******** will be ********. Will I not invite somebody who doesn't understand their job enough to not melee in hecatomb gear because he's too lazy to at least have a gear swap between tp and ws? Yes. Why? Because he has put 0 effort into bettering himself and therefore I don't expect him to care about his job. Getting rid of gear swapping will not eliminate this problem.

You all have good arguments against problems, but almost none of them would be solved by removing gear swapping. They would be better stopped by fixing the problems, not removing the things that the problems attach themsleves to.
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#201 Jul 09 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It must be a windower-exclusive function, then.


Eh, well here's the thing. If you play on PC there are apps that will basically let you have macros that are as long as you want, and you can do what takes a normal player 3 macros in one key stroke. So there are equity issues with gearswapping.

But you actually were told correctly. You can call a macro with a macro now, but it just moves the selector to the macro icon. In other words, where I used to have three macros to press, I'd have to select the macro, go over, select the next, go over, select the last. Now I can just push the "select" button three times if I set each macro to go to the next macro.

It did help quite a bit with gearswapping, especially me, because I gearswapped more than most people can even fathom (pretty much constantly-- I was pressing roughly 1 macro every 2 seconds).

But it still sucked. It was still grindy, and even for all the action, depth and complexity it added to the shallow gameplay, it was still pretty simple.
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