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#202 Jul 09 2009 at 4:33 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Banggugyangu wrote:
Macros were placed into this game to do one thing: Allow the execution of one or more typed commands by the press of 2 buttons. One of these typed commands placed into the game is the /equip command.


Yes, /equip is a typed command you can use with a macro. You assume that means that SE intended for gear swapping for each and every little thing to become the standard. Just like SE originally intended for NIN to be tanks, amirite?

Have you not read my previous posts? I'll say this, I've been on FF for 7 years now. I've been around longer than almost anybody at this point. I'm also one of the few people that read every press-release, interview, update note, etc... that SE releases regarding this game. Their exact comments regarding gear swapping were that they intended it to be used, but had no idea that it would be used to the extent that everyone uses it. Most people who attempt to use the NIN tanking argument even get that wrong, but that's a different topic for a different day.
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There will be the same ratio of REAL players : idiots in any game whether gear swapping is allowed or not.


Ya, and I prefer to associate myself with the REAL players...you know, the ones who keep the overall objective in mind and don't alienate themselves from the bulk of the community with elitist dorkspeak. There's a fine line between understanding how things work and applying that knowledge to meet a performance requirement for a particular encounter and overkilling everything for the sake of...whatever. When you start looking down on others because they don't share your view of mandated perfection, you've crossed that line.


I'll say this, I don't look down on others that don't share my view of mandated perfection BECAUSE they don't share my view of mandated perfection. I look down on others that don't share my view of mandated perfection because they generally expect me to cater to their every whim and get ***** because I'm won't deal with them wasting my time. I'll give everyone a chance to party with me. I'm not even the kind of person to get upset because exp/hr is low, so long as everyone is putting forth their best effort to reap the best results. Failing to gear swap in FFXI, however, and having an attitude that you're above those who gear swap *and a large majority have that attitude* is NOT putting forth best effort.

Deadgye, I agree 100% with your paragraph about events.
#203 Jul 09 2009 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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This is getting somewhat redundant...

Gear swapping should not be allowed because realism. It IS a valid argument. Yes it is a fantasy world but even in this fantasy world there are restrictions and changing your clothes should be just as mundane as walking to the auction house. Changing your pants in the middle of a fight is just reckless.

The idea of max/minimizing your stats should rely on different mechanics, preferably a support job. I am also very fond of potions and I think this should be the new way to fully maximize your skills/magic. A little nostalgia on past FF titles maybe but it's a lot more digestible than an outfit change in the middle of a fight.

People bring up the idea of skill when it comes to gear swapping which I think is laughable. This is an entirely new game with a new combat system in mind. Hopefully they won't make it so the "skill" that is required to maximize yourself is not at the push of a macro button.
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#204The One and Only Deadgye, Posted: Jul 09 2009 at 5:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm pretty sure nobody related skill to gear swapping at all. I could be wrong, but regardless I know I haven't. Gear swapping has nothing to do with skill. Choosing what gear to use, and maybe adapting your gear mid fight could be considered skill though. But that's not what we're considering. You have to balance gear and skill if you want a game to work well. Gear swapping simply allows us to maximize our potential. If you don't have skill your potential doesn't matter because you won't be able to reach it. Getting rid of gear swapping completely can only hurt the game.
#205 Jul 09 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Banggugyangu wrote:

Have you not read my previous posts? I'll say this, I've been on FF for 7 years now. I've been around longer than almost anybody at this point. I'm also one of the few people that read every press-release, interview, update note, etc... that SE releases regarding this game. Their exact comments regarding gear swapping were that they intended it to be used, but had no idea that it would be used to the extent that everyone uses it. Most people who attempt to use the NIN tanking argument even get that wrong, but that's a different topic for a different day.


And I'm sure that SE intended for NIN to be able to soak a few hits from time to time if the real tank was in trouble, too. Ergo...two layers of Utsusemi.

I have nothing against people who swap gear. I have nothing against the concept as it exists within the scope of FFXI. I think that the people who have spent the last 7 years playing FFXI to the exclusion of other MMOs will be somewhat shocked by the more dynamic nature of the "more real time battles like you see in other MMOs." There's a whole other level of min-maxing that takes place when you actually have to decide on general priorities and select gear appropriate for the overall task at hand because once the fight starts, that's what you've got to work with.

Gear swapping is cheesy. It works. It's an innovative solution. It requires an understanding of the game mechanics. And it's a big ol' chunk o' cheese. It's something that evolved from a game with comparatively dull combat mechanics and equally dull itemization. What else are you going to do with your time? I know! Gather more gear than any one player should ever reasonably be expected to tote around, load up on the theorycraft and associated macros, and then hold people accountable to a hardcore standard set by hardcore players who really have no business dictating standards to anyone.

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I'll say this, I don't look down on others that don't share my view of mandated perfection BECAUSE they don't share my view of mandated perfection. I look down on others that don't share my view of mandated perfection because they generally expect me to cater to their every whim and get ***** because I'm won't deal with them wasting my time. I'll give everyone a chance to party with me. I'm not even the kind of person to get upset because exp/hr is low, so long as everyone is putting forth their best effort to reap the best results. Failing to gear swap in FFXI, however, and having an attitude that you're above those who gear swap *and a large majority have that attitude* is NOT putting forth best effort.


I'm an enormous advocate of team play. I have no use for people who join groups and spend more time watching TV than focusing on their role in the group. I take issue with people who, for example, pooh-pooh voice chat because they prefer listening to music or the TV over listening to audio cues while they're in a group. Of course, that's a perspective evolved from someone who left FFXI after close to four years for a game that offered extremely viable solo options where it was reasonable to expect that if you wanted to play the game half-assed, you could do it on your own and not jeopardize the goals of a group by joining one when you're not really willing to pay adequate attention.

From there, I'll look unfavorably upon people who itemize for a role they aren't trying to fill (ie. gear with stats that offer their particular role no benefit whatsoever). If the gear is selected with a reasonable knowledge of what will benefit that role and the focus is on the task at hand, that's as far as it needs to go. Tuning for peak performance is something you expect from cutting edge, highly competitive end-game groups, not standard leveling/small group content. Expecting more than an adequate baseline is absurd. Is the job getting done...yes or no?

Yes? Good enough.
No? Why? 9 times out of 10 gear has nothing to do with it...player choices in combat have everything to do with it. Successful group play is about teamwork and synergy, not elitist demands and expectations.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 7:06pm by AureliusSir
#206 Jul 09 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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You all have good arguments against problems, but almost none of them would be solved by removing gear swapping. They would be better stopped by fixing the problems, not removing the things that the problems attach themsleves to.


It doesn't solve the problem of people being asses, no, but it gives them one less avenue to try and be an *** with. I still think people are trying to look at all of this too hard through the eyes of FFXI when it comes to however the battle system pans out now.

I have at least 8 neck pieces on RDM, for example. Swap, swap, yawn, yawn, use as appropriate. By FFXI's standards, a neck piece with: HP-50, MP+92, hMP+2, Elemental +7, Dark +7, Enfeebling +7, Enhancing +7, MND+5, and Latent: MATK would be easily deemed "overpowered" by what we know. Why can't these be a single item in XIV, though? Why force the acquisition of all the situational pieces for no reason other than a time sink?

Really, people think too highly of skill. If someone is so good, use that skill to compensate for someone else's shortcomings. If that doesn't fix the situation? Well, maybe it's not a skill problem, then. Maybe it is the gear. Maybe it's party strategy. Maybe it was just bad luck.

Ideally, we shouldn't be looking at the same inventory bottleneck of XI. SE can still lowball us with the item grind by making gear not as universally applicable to jobs. Think of everything as JSE in this sense. Godly for the job in question. Maybe the envy of another with similar abilities. In the end, though, they shouldn't have to be blinking like a christmas tree or worrying about getting hand piece #5 for one job while knowing getting head #4 for another is just around the corner. As I've said in a number of other XIV threads, though, SE can't **** around and leave us with low stats like in XI. Bigger the numbers, bigger the potential variety in all aspects of play.
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#207 Jul 09 2009 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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* I honestly can't see how you think gear swapping takes away from strategy. If there's no gear swapping, then people will just wear whatever is best for that enemy as well. There's absolutely no difference. The only thing that changes is instead of maximizing your characters potential you're choosing a median for your character. That has nothing to do with strategy. You put exactly the same amount of work into figuring out what's best. Strategy should come from enhancing other battle mechanics.

Gear choices should be strategic. They should be based on how you play and how you try and balance stat increases to help your effectiveness. There's no strategy in logging into Alla, reading a couple forum posts on some mob, finding out the best gear for it, and then using that gear.

Basically, with gear swapping, it's (relatively) easy to min/max each individual task that your character might do. There's a lot more strategy (relatively) that goes into picking gear when you have to consider the effect of that gear on your total contribution to a group, not just each little piece at a time. If you know the math and estimate within reason the stats of a mob you're going to be facing it's easy to pick the optimal gear for your X, Y, and Z tasks and then macro in the best gear sets for each of those tasks. When you have to balance X, Y, and Z all at once, though, using the same set of gear, things become much more complex and you have to worry a lot more about balancing your character (rather than maxing everything).

With FFXI it's far to easy to estimate the stats for a mob and then pick the best gear for each task you'll be performing while facing that mob. I don't want that. I want complexity, I want to see people approaching mobs with all kinds of different strategies based on their gear. It's there in FFXI sometimes, but gear swapping limits it a lot. I want to see more tradeoffs, more intricacy, more diversity... More than just "X' gear is the best for X so you need X' gear when you use X, Y' gear is the best for Y so you need Y' gear when you use Y, and Z' gear is the best for Z so you need Z' gear when you use Z," I want to see "I like approaching mobs using X more than I do with Y or Z, but I still use Y and Z, so I'm going to build my gear setup with all three aspects in mind, but focus just a tad more on X."

Min/maxing, then, won't have to take only task X, Y, or Z into mind because you'll have to satisfy all three at once and also take play style into account. It makes things more complicated, it makes your gear more personal, and it makes it so that everyone isn't wearing the exact same gear when they're doing X, Y, or Z because it min/maxes X, Y, or Z.

And, of course, it'll make it much more strategic. People will have to put a lot more thought into picking their gear rather than just depending on the mathheads who crunched the numbers for min/maxing and told them what gear is best. Right now most people tune their gear only minimally, and (by extension) for the most part look exactly like everyone else.



I also think that the realism argument is a valid point. There are a thousand rules that SE could allow you to stupidly break that would help characters play more effectively--that doesn't mean that SE should let you break them.

It would be stupid, for example, for SE to make it so you could wear 2 pieces of headgear at the same time. Sure, it would help you be a more productive player. Sure, you'll have to do more grinding to get the best 2nd piece. Sure, you can call everyone who doesn't have the 2 best helmets a gimped noob (I know I would). And sure, you'd have to think about min/maxing when you decide on that second piece.

Sure, it's also totally unrealistic and therefore freaking stupid to be able to wear 2 sallets or whatever at the same time, and I think that most people (even those who are supporting gear swapping here) would agree.

Or, at least I sure hope so ha.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 11:42pm by Morsmorde
#208 Jul 09 2009 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, it's not a valid argument. If the realism really bothers you that much then just get them to change the equipment system into a materia system or something. Getting rid of helpful game mechanics because you don't like the cosmetics is a stupid idea.


Why is gear swapping the only viable alternative to maximizing you have in mind?
There are plenty of other ways to go about it that don't require you to change pieces of armor. You suggested a materia system, that could work, ALONGSIDE gear equipment. What is wrong with using potions as well?

If you made a piece of armor that gave you resistance against Fire but greatly reduced your resistant against ice, would that piece of armor not be a situational piece? Why not make encounters with that mentality in mind? I'll go even further. In this encounter, the boss uses both fire AND ice attacks. You can only have an armor that boosts fire resistance and lowers ice resistance. The only way around it would be to time your reflect spell so that you could counter the strong blizzard attack. I think THIS would require more skill as your mage would have to be on their toes keeping that blizzard from 1 shotting you.

You're removing a flawed game mechanic (intentional or not) where you were simply swapping in pieces of gear for more damage and implementing one that actually affects the outcome of the battle.I don't think there is anything else that needs to be said about this.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 11:02pm by lambon
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#209 Jul 09 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Default
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lambon wrote:
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No, it's not a valid argument. If the realism really bothers you that much then just get them to change the equipment system into a materia system or something. Getting rid of helpful game mechanics because you don't like the cosmetics is a stupid idea.


Why is gear swapping the only viable alternative to maximizing you have in mind?
There are plenty of other ways to go about it that don't require you to change pieces of armor. You suggested a materia system, that could work, ALONGSIDE gear equipment. What is wrong with using potions as well?

If you made a piece of armor that gave you resistance against Fire but greatly reduced your resistant against ice, would that piece of armor not be a situational piece? Why not make encounters with that mentality in mind? I'll go even further. In this encounter, the boss uses both fire AND ice attacks. You can only have an armor that boosts fire resistance and lowers ice resistance. The only way around it would be to time your reflect spell so that you could counter the strong blizzard attack. I think THIS would require more skill as your mage would have to be on their toes keeping that blizzard from 1 shotting you.

You're removing a flawed game mechanic (intentional or not) where you were simply swapping in pieces of gear for more damage and implementing one that actually affects the outcome of the battle.I don't think there is anything else that needs to be said about this.


No one in this game is saying it "has to be equipment". We're simply saying that we want maximization. As it stands, no one has offered any viable alternative to gear swapping other than rehashed, glorified, gear-swapping redundancies. The materia system is a prime example of this. It could work very well. If they choose to implement such a system, I would welcome it with open arms. No one is shooting it down. I'm simply arguing against those who argue against maximization.

BTW, you speak of redundancy in the argument, yet your first post was nothing more than redundant info posted 2+ times each. Can someone spell irony?

Read my previous posts about realism regarding this issue, and if you still desire to make the realism argument, I will challenge you as well to provide any single piece of evidence that states that Vana'diel citizens change clothing in any manner other than mystically disappearing and then reappearing in the new garb.
#210The One and Only Deadgye, Posted: Jul 09 2009 at 8:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's not the only viable alternative, and I've already stated multiple times that I'd be fine with a system like that. But that it's exactly the same thing. Every single viable alternative that has been made, I've agreed to.
#211 Jul 09 2009 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Do you even play the game? For the very, very few pieces of equipment that you can do that for, it only works on god **** colibri. We really don't know the stats, or can't estimate easily the stats of almost every other mob in the game. Everytime I get a new piece of gear I personally spend a few hours doing mathematical equations against a variety of mobs, not just colibri, in many different situations to find out exactly how and where I should be using it. Why can't I just ask on a forum? Because besides it being different from mob to mob, different from situation to situation, what equipment is best also differs from person to person because not everybody has the exact same gear. And even after I do all my math, it's still not constantly correct. I can only infer from my math equations what should be better, it's not going to be factual.

You make it out like it's simple. When in actuality it's anything but.


Lol Deadgye, you can hardly use yourself as a standard for the overwhelming majority of players. Most players, even in the endgame, don't do that. They read forums and piece together what they can. A large proportion of the players on this forum are the hardest of the hardcore players; after all, they're wasting hours a day talking about a game that's not going to be released for an entire year.
#212 Jul 09 2009 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
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and then hold people accountable to a hardcore standard set by hardcore players who really have no business dictating standards to anyone.


Aannnnd that's where you went downhill.


In the context of a response to a statement like this:

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I'll say this, I don't look down on others that don't share my view of mandated perfection BECAUSE they don't share my view of mandated perfection. I look down on others that don't share my view of mandated perfection because they generally expect me to cater to their every whim and get ***** because I'm won't deal with them wasting my time.


I'd say my response was reasonably accurate.
#213 Jul 09 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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BTW, you speak of redundancy in the argument, yet your first post was nothing more than redundant info posted 2+ times each. Can someone spell irony?


This came out extremely assertive and uncalled for.
I said this was becoming redundant, yes, including my own post regarding the matter. Why would you see it in any other way? Back off.

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No one in this game is saying it "has to be equipment". We're simply saying that we want maximization. As it stands, no one has offered any viable alternative to gear swapping other than rehashed, glorified, gear-swapping redundancies. The materia system is a prime example of this. It could work very well. If they choose to implement such a system, I would welcome it with open arms. No one is shooting it down. I'm simply arguing against those who argue against maximization.


I don't see why spells, potions, and support jobs are not a viable alternative. Could you state why?
Bards would be able to maximize your damage potential if they gave you all the STR/attack songs. Same with defense. Why not leave that aspect of the game to certain jobs instead of a macro? If I need to inflict damage but the monsters evasion is too high for attack gear, then I'll wear my accuracy gear and rely on that Bard to increase my damage. Heck, it's already done in FFXI! Would it not be be more strategic to rely on items and support jobs? Alchemy as it stands is already useless. This would actually encourage its use...though it would probably already used as an alternative if it wasn't so **** expensive.

Potions, spells, support jobs for maximization. Still not a viable alternative?


Edited, Jul 10th 2009 2:03am by lambon
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#214 Jul 09 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Default
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Lol Deadgye, you can hardly use yourself as a standard for the overwhelming majority of players. Most players, even in the endgame, don't do that. They read forums and piece together what they can. A large proportion of the players on this forum are the hardest of the hardcore players; after all, they're wasting hours a day talking about a game that's not going to be released for an entire year.


It's not that I'm making what I do a standard.. it's just that in order for it to be even slightly correct that's what you need to do. That or you need to ask somebody on a forum to do it for you. There are very few items that you can simply go on a forum and ask what's better. And if there is an answer at akk, it's usually only for situation X, that only compromises one small part of the game. It's nowhere near as simple as you made it sound.

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In the context of a response to a statement like this:


I'm sorry.. but that's far from a hardcore standard. He's talking about the type of people who don't bother gear swapping at all in ffxi. The people who don't think they need to put forth any effort and that everybody who requires them to put forth a little are elitists. These are the people that tend to use the example "It's my 12.95 a month and I can play how I want." And personally.. I wouldn't want to party with people who think like that either.
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#215 Jul 09 2009 at 10:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not that I'm making what I do a standard.. it's just that in order for it to be even slightly correct that's what you need to do. That or you need to ask somebody on a forum to do it for you. There are very few items that you can simply go on a forum and ask what's better. And if there is an answer at akk, it's usually only for situation X, that only compromises one small part of the game. It's nowhere near as simple as you made it sound.


That's not what I said, though. I'm saying, for example, that if you consult an experienced XXX he'd be able to tell you (for the most part) what the best gear is when facing mob Y (and therefore building you main set of weapon-swinging gear focusing on Z). That kind of info is on the forums a lot of the time, too. For each job there's an optimal (or close to optimal) build for each stat or function a certain job might need, and that build is found fairly easily.

I guess my point is that "perfection" is far too standardized with FFXI's system.

Without gear-swapping, though, you wouldn't find that. Pieces of gear wouldn't be nearly as "necessary" or "the best for that slot, unconditionally, when doing X" because X wouldn't be the only thing you've got to think about; you'd be facing tradeoffs with your gear and each slot could fill different functions for different people, even when facing the same mob. And I feel that that diversity is a good thing.

Also, gear swapping could still have a place. Building a bit off your idea, if SE designs mobs that change tactics halfway through you could swap gear when that happens and therefore adapt to the mob when you need to--you'd have to swallow the few seconds of "stun," of course, but if the mob is going to be like that for the rest of the battle, it's worth it, for sure.

I like the idea of gear swapping, I just don't think it's a good system when it's unrestricted. And if I had to guess, that's what I'd assume that FFXIV is going to have implemented: gear swapping with some kind of minor incentive not to do so mid-battle (so that it doesn't get totally out of hand).

When it's unrestricted, gear-swapping promotes gear homogeneity, it's unrealistic, it's a burden on everyone that's not crazy hardcore, and, in my opinion, SE shouldn't include it in FFXIV. They can satisfy hardcore players (including me) without it.

But that's just my 2 cents I s'pose haha

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 2:57am by Morsmorde
#216 Jul 09 2009 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye, I'm going to try to address your points, but you'll agree that it's a lot to cover. I'm going to gather that on the topic of realism/cosmetics, we are basically in agreement and there's no further need to discuss it.

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All good ideas, but would work exactly the same with gear. What you described you not wanting though is exactly what vertical progression gives. In a horizontal progression you're not going to replace your gear when you get new ones. A lot of the old ones are going to stay worthwhile. In a vertical progression when you get new gear, old gear is completely replaced. And if you can't gear-swap, all old gear is going to be worthless. Let's take my leaping boots for example. They were pretty overpowered and lasted me from when I got them(24) to 73. At that point I replaced them with the better dragon boots. (Vertical progression.) And even now at 75 I use them. But I don't use them for everything except TP like I used to, I only use them for solo TA. (Horizontal progression) Without gear-swapping, they would have been worthless and replaced much, much earlier. I probably wouldn't have even bought the dragon boots.


Ok, see vertical gear progression is another thing altogether. No, I do not want fully vertical gear progression per se, though I honestly don't think that gear should be that important in the end. I know lots of games that are purely skill and strategy based, and people play them hardcore for years just trying to make themselves better players, having lots of fun while doing it. In that sense, there is no need or advantage to make a game where player progression is based heavily on acquiring gear or gaining levels. See, I honestly don't even care if gear provides any stats whatsoever (aside from weapons, I guess), or even if level is less important than player skill.

But much of that is contingent on a system where certain equipment becomes available at a certain level anyway, which is not necessarily a system XIV will use. Probably, but not by necessity.

Anyway, as I've said, I'm fine with a similar system that does employ that kind of progression through materia/cards/etc.

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Aye, I've stated that it's not implemented that well. I'm hoping that I can look forward to equipping a bunch of gear and then defining that as a certain "set" in game, and that with a simple /equip set "Trick Attack" I would automatically swap into that set without my character blinking. And I'm hoping that we have plenty of inventory space to allow us to do this easily. I'm fine with them using "materia" or something else.. but if they do it needs to work just the same way.


I would like a system like that as well, but also significantly more complex, if that's going to be one of the defining strategic elements of the game. If materia interact with materia near them to create various effects, etc. that would satisfy me. Not unlike how they do in FF7 and Crisis Core.

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Personally, I don't want a game that's only about what you do and has nothing to do with what you have, because then no matter how much you improve your character it's not going to matter.


Well that will never really happen, because then it's not even really an RPG. But I would like to see it SUBSTANTIALLY downplayed. And in a skill based game, there's always room for progression. It's just that you are progressing as a player, rather than doing things that are mundane for you to progress your character. The former is far more rewarding and challenging.

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But a balance between the two would be great. Take thief in ffxi for example. It depends heavily on gear. If you don't have different equipment setups you're likely going to fail in comparison to other thieves.. but it only relies heavily on skill. If you can't coordinate yourself and etc, you will fail in comparison to other thieves. The good thieves are the ones who are both skilled and both geared.


See, I would prefer if there were not a huge difference between the well-skilled thief with poor gear and the well-skilled thief with uber gear. At least provided a game where actually acquiring the gear doesn't actually take so much skill as patience, luck, lots of time, and people willing to help you. Now in a game where the best dagger is obtained by winning a very challenging solo fight, I don't mind if there's a big difference in the gear. But in a game where you spend a lifetime in Dynamis to get the best knife, I'm not as big a fan.


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That's a possibility, but I have a feeling that people would be even more ****** off by having to carry a whole bunch of gear sets for each different type of mob they fight and/or introduce than to have to carry a smaller bunch of gear sets to cover everything. I'd personally go with the 'monsters change tactics and therefore require a gear chance mid-battle' thing more than having different monsters require different things. One could say that ffxi already had the latter. If I was fighting colibri I needed to max out on haste while still keeping acc and attack strong. But if I was fighting kirin I needed to max out on acc and attack while not really caring about haste.


See, I would just prefer if they require a change of tactics. When it gets down to a few simple stats, it just becomes too predictable to me. Making monsters more reactive is the answer to this, and in most cases this needs to be about the use of various abilities, not gear swaps. I mean, it's sad to me that a game can become so predominantly about the swapping of gear and really not have a whole lot to do with the use of abilities, but particularly as a DD in FFXI that's the reality.

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Well, to be fair, finding out what to use is far from easy. There's a lot of complicated math that goes into it. <.<; It does NOT just take 5 minutes to figure out what's best, and you can't do it even if you're an idiot. You first consider your enemy, and then consider the rest of your gear, and then factor in everything.. fstr, dstr, cratio, pdif, level correction, haste, delay, etc. And then you only know what's best on that one enemy, sometimes it's actually too close to call so you don't know. Sometimes it's actually worse for you because of your other gear. It's not going to always be best. I never use my optical hat vs colibri or mamool, but against jailer or hope or something else I just might. There is no "this is the best". There is only a "this is the best for this specific enemy", even though there sometimes isn't even that. FFXI just has too many cookie-cutter mobs, not cookie-cutter setups. If I want to merit.. I'm going to be either fighting mamool ja or colibri. This is a problem with the game and not with the equipment swapping. If ffxi had many more viable enemies to fight then there would be a plethora more equipment setups.


That's half true. It takes one or a few people a lot of complicated math to figure these things out, they post it on the internet, and THEN any idiot can figure it out in five minutes.

And complicated math is not exactly your average person's idea of fun, either.

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You can't have a game without work. Why? Because work isn't timesinks and bullsh*t. Work is challenge. And some challenges DO require time. (Airships are a timesink, I'm not arguing that things like that are good.) In FFX if I wanted to get all the best weapons in the game, I needed to do a sh*tload of work. I needed to dodge 200 frieking lightning bolts in a row? Was it worth it for me? No, so I didn't do it. Was it worth it for other people? Yes! When I wanted to get tidus's best weapon I had to complete the chocobo thingy with a time or 0.0; Was it hard for me to do it? Did it require a decent amount of work? Yes. But it was fun to do! And it felt like I actually accomplished something when I did it. There were also times that I almost broke my controller though. (those @#%^ing birds cheat)


Alright, look, I'm not going to get into a semantics debate about what "work" means, but I will tell you what it means to most people, and it's not what you've just described. I did all that stuff in FFX too, and to me that's not analogous. You're talking about freaking minigames! What's analogous is fighting the same enemies over and over to level up so that you can beat a boss.

My brother plays Rock Band for hours nearly every day. Does he "work" at it? Sure, but the whole time he is playing Rock Band. He never picks up the guitar and says, "*sigh* I need to work on this song." Because it's not boring to him, or to most people. A-button mashing? That's a freaking running gag. And ****, for as boring as most of the gameplay is in XI, I -wish- I could just mash an A-button and get it over with.

The distinction you need to grasp here is that not all work is challenging. Working in a factory assembly line is work, hard work. But it's not challenging. It's just tedious.

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We agree that things that are annoyingly repetitive need to be changed, but there aren't many things that actually fit the bill.


Well on that, I disagree with you. There is plenty of repetitive content in FFXI. Really, almost every battle in FFXI is repetitive. Dynamis? Jesus, that's never fun and interesting, I don't care how big a pull it is. Sky gods get boring really quick too. Same for sea. There's tons of repetition in FFXI by virtue of having to do the same battles over and over, neverminding how similar so many battles really are.

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I spent plenty of time working to get better in FFT. I had to go multiple extra battles to level jobs to unlock other jobs. I have to redo certain boss battles many times because I was unable to steal his gear before killing him. I never felt like fft was wasting my time, but in truth it was only a video game that was doing nothing other than wasting my time. I knew this and continued to play because I enjoyed the challenge, I enjoyed the work, and I enjoyed the storyline,etc.


I agree. FFT was a great game, and FFXI is no FFT. I never felt like I was working in FFT. Every battle was different from the last. But basically this all comes down to the fact that the gameplay in FFT was far superior to the gameplay in FFXI. If FFT were made into an MMO, it would stomp XI into the ground.

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To get certain materias you needed to master every single materia of that color. Stuff like that for example.


Yep, hated that. By that point, I had already done this sort of thing in half a dozen other games.

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But there aren't really any fights like that that I can think of.


Every fight is like that when you have several people who need a rare drop from that boss for their gearswap macro. And even setting that aside, like 95% of the fights are pretty cookie cutter fights.

So you pretty much have the choice of being casual and having crappy/mediocre gear and kind of enjoying the game, or getting that gear, but having no real fun while doing it. I eventually started to play more casually because grinding out the "fun" fights was super boring, and that did help. But it didn't change the fact that most battles were basically the same, and what differences they did have were pretty simple and didn't challenge me as a player.

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We're simply saying that we want maximization. As it stands, no one has offered any viable alternative to gear swapping other than rehashed, glorified, gear-swapping redundancies.


Oh, well no one really asked me. I can give you one. It'll have to wait though, especially considering that I don't even care all that much about maximization.

I mean, unless you're going to argue that any kind of maxing system is essentially gearswapping, which I guess you could.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 11:55pm by Kachi
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#217 Jul 09 2009 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
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In the context of a response to a statement like this:


I'm sorry.. but that's far from a hardcore standard. He's talking about the type of people who don't bother gear swapping at all in ffxi. The people who don't think they need to put forth any effort and that everybody who requires them to put forth a little are elitists. These are the people that tend to use the example "It's my 12.95 a month and I can play how I want." And personally.. I wouldn't want to party with people who think like that either.


So what you're telling me is that the game isn't at all tuned so that your standard xp/merit party can function...at all...without gear swapping, is that correct? Because if that's the case, then ya...obviously the party is wiping all over the place because folks aren't swapping gear.

See, I could see this if it was a case of theorycrafting being applied in a productive way. I'll be the first to admit that I only browse the FFXI boards periodically, but in my time as an avid FFXI player and reading through this entire thread, I haven't seen a single mention of dps. I'm not talking about 'dps' as a term to describe a damage role in a party...I'm talking about the verbatim application of the term 'damage per second'. I haven't seen a single example anywhere in this thread that speaks to the advantage of gear swapping in terms of personal dps or overall group dps augmented by the more consistent application of debuffs. I haven't seen any examples of tank DR referencing the benefits of gear swapping or, healer hps with a static gear set vs. a cookie cutter gear swap configuration. All I see is "blah blah blah min-max blah blah blah."

If you want to demonstrate an understanding of theorycraft beyond the abstract, talk to me about your baseline tests with <x> job using a static setup vs. that same job in the same circumstances using your preferred gear swapping rotation. Talk to me about how that ties to the required sustained party dps in a particular camp in order to maintain <y> xp(merits)/hour. Talk to me about hate thresholds vs. DR for tanks in a way that justifies gear swapping in a concrete fashion, or give me definitive numbers on hps and/or HP healed per point of effective mana. Take the "blah blah blah min-max blah blah" and package it in something tangible and useful as a comparison to justify it beyond a bunch of stereotypical elitist dorkspeak and you might (might) have an argument. I think you'll find, however, that in most cases, gear swapping as a "way of life" is little more than an e-peen extender. A way to justify the extra grind for the extra situational piece of gear that is only going to make a substantial difference if paired with half a dozen other situational pieces of gear blah blah blah.

So let fly with the dps/DR/hps parses and tie it in to xp/merits per hour or minimum necessary overall group dps/DR + avoidance + threat/effective mana/etc. for a particular boss in order to be successful before healer resources start getting taxed beyond reason and you'll have a foundation to carry on a discussion.

Otherwise..it's just dorkspeak, dude. Trivial, pointless, self-serving dorkspeak.
#218 Jul 10 2009 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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It doesn't solve the problem of people being asses, no, but it gives them one less avenue to try and be an *** with. I still think people are trying to look at all of this too hard through the eyes of FFXI when it comes to however the battle system pans out now.



I really can't approve of that type of logic. If you only attack the symptoms then you haven't cured anything. That's what happened to a lot of things in ffxi that went to sh*t. RMT abusing demon horns and npcing items from castle zvahl?! Nerf the items! RMT fishing botting too much? Put a cap on the amount of fish per day! etc. All it did was hurt the player base.


You've kinda proven my point about looking at things through XI with your comparisons. Has SE given and taken away in terms of gross overreactions toward RMT? Yes. Will these same problems exist from XIV from the start? I'd hope not.

For now, it's a matter of relevancy in code mechanics versus player mechanics. The latter will never entirely be under SE's control, just like how hard mobs weren't meant to be soloed even though players figured out little tricks that'd let 'em exploit the system. Technically, they could go back and fix such things, but then players would just look for the next trick. AV's probably the token example of this, but players are just more ****** because we can't beat it.

Ultimately, I yearn for XIV to accommodate players instead of prompting the competitive greed-mongering we see now. This leads to haves and have-nots, a confusion of those having having more skill than those who don't have, a potential escalation where not having can not be compensated for with skill, and an eventual case of "To **** with this game!" when people get sick of BS from both SE and the players. Does this mean no high end content? Of course not. Though, when you think of XI, punishment for failure is usually pretty strict and part of what's fueled the elitist mindset. Wipe and either another LS is waiting to take your mob, you might not have enough time to recover before getting kicked out, you lose pop items, or just plain ol' EXP.

In retrospect, talk of no levels has me hoping death penalties won't be nearly as bad. You'd be surprised how such a thing is a common complaint amongst those who had tried XI for a bit.
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#219 Jul 10 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
See, I could see this if it was a case of theorycrafting being applied in a productive way. I'll be the first to admit that I only browse the FFXI boards periodically, but in my time as an avid FFXI player and reading through this entire thread, I haven't seen a single mention of dps. I'm not talking about 'dps' as a term to describe a damage role in a party...I'm talking about the verbatim application of the term 'damage per second'. I haven't seen a single example anywhere in this thread that speaks to the advantage of gear swapping in terms of personal dps or overall group dps augmented by the more consistent application of debuffs. I haven't seen any examples of tank DR referencing the benefits of gear swapping or, healer hps with a static gear set vs. a cookie cutter gear swap configuration. All I see is "blah blah blah min-max blah blah blah."


Allow me to say this: Pre-75, and/or before merit PTs became TP burns, debuffs were essential for both damage increase toward the mob and damage reduction from the mob. Many parties consisted of a WHM, BRD, and BLM as the backline. RDM wasn't truely accepted as a main healer at those times. Now BRD had it's own set of debuffs that were unique and considered bonuses. They weren't considered replacements to the white and black magic debuffs, however. I can tell you with 100% assurance that as a WHM, you WILL NOT reliably debuff EXP mobs past level 35. It won't happen. UNLESS you have a decent enfeebling gear set. If you build a proper set for it, you can easily land all the white and black magic debuffs regularly and for full duration. These gear sets don't even walk hand in hand with one another too well *aside from the enfeebling magic skill gear alone* (one has INT other has MND). Let alone should they walk hand in hand with a set designed around actually HEALING.

In order to maximize healing *which is a massive jump of at least 20% potency with only 2 items* you need to have a proper healing magic set. This healing magic set will make a sizable difference from someone who doesn't have such a set. In order to properly debuff AT ALL... you must have the debuffing gear sets.

Sure, this isn't a parse result. It's not some definite hard-copy test result. But if you are going to deny that it's truth, you'll only make yourself look extremely foolish. If you want to attempt to argue that a melee DD without proper gear swaps will perform as high as a melee DD WITH proper gear swaps... you're probably too stubborn for me to waste any more breath.
#220 Jul 10 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Banggugyangu wrote:
Sure, this isn't a parse result. It's not some definite hard-copy test result. But if you are going to deny that it's truth, you'll only make yourself look extremely foolish. If you want to attempt to argue that a melee DD without proper gear swaps will perform as high as a melee DD WITH proper gear swaps... you're probably too stubborn for me to waste any more breath.


That's a shame. 7 years playing the game, elitist rah rah blah blah out the wazoo, and that was the best example you could come up with. Generalizations. Forgive me for being sorely underwhelmed.

If you're going to dork it up, do it right. If you're going to be an elitist jerk, do it right. Back it up with concrete numbers. It's one thing if you can site specific examples based on your direct testing or ****, even demonstrate a solid understanding of someone else' examples. It's another thing entirely to look down your nose at people over abstracts that haven't taken on a valid purpose.

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 4:06pm by AureliusSir
#221 Jul 10 2009 at 4:30 PM Rating: Default
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Thank you for proving my point regarding your stubborness. By the way, you've called me elitist multiple times without any foundation that I can tell. Perhaps you would like to reread my previous posts once more. Perhaps you could take another gander at Deadgye's post properly explaining the post I made that you even chose to quote. I'll reiterate once more before I begin to ignore your stubborn, unfounded insults. I'm not the kind of person to talk down to people because they have inexpensive gear. If I notice someone with improper gear, I'll offer friendly advice. If I see someone not gear swapping, I'll give some advice as to what would be most beneficial. If someone's performance is lacking, I'll politely make suggestions. When someone humbly accepts my advice, we smile and continue with the PT. If the EXP/hr is sub-par, as long as everyone is putting forth their best efforts, I'm happy. If someone becomes defensive, which is usually the case, and they turn around and spew my advice back at me as though they were nobility and I were peasant, I become short, and it doesn't take much to push me over the edge and remove either myself or the opposing person from the PT. If you can call that being elitism, then I'll go ahead and call you out as being on the gimp end of this exact situation.

Sorry for formatting, posted from a Blackberry.

*edit* the WHM example is common knowledge. No real reason for you to dismiss it.

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 7:32pm by Banggugyangu
#222 Jul 10 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:
Thank you for proving my point regarding your stubborness. By the way, you've called me elitist multiple times without any foundation that I can tell. Perhaps you would like to reread my previous posts once more. Perhaps you could take another gander at Deadgye's post properly explaining the post I made that you even chose to quote. I'll reiterate once more before I begin to ignore your stubborn, unfounded insults. I'm not the kind of person to talk down to people because they have inexpensive gear. If I notice someone with improper gear, I'll offer friendly advice. If I see someone not gear swapping, I'll give some advice as to what would be most beneficial. If someone's performance is lacking, I'll politely make suggestions. When someone humbly accepts my advice, we smile and continue with the PT. If the EXP/hr is sub-par, as long as everyone is putting forth their best efforts, I'm happy. If someone becomes defensive, which is usually the case, and they turn around and spew my advice back at me as though they were nobility and I were peasant, I become short, and it doesn't take much to push me over the edge and remove either myself or the opposing person from the PT. If you can call that being elitism, then I'll go ahead and call you out as being on the gimp end of this exact situation.


Then there's the side of the spectrum you fully overlook...unsolicited criticism is rarely appreciated. People didn't join the party so you could critique their gear or playstyle. They didn't join the party so that you could dictate to them how they should be doing things and demand that they bow and scrape to your "polite" recommendations. If they ask, or if they're doing something that is causing wipes, then by all means let them know what's on your mind about the situation. Outside of those limited scenarios, you really have no business suggesting anything.

When you offer someone who isn't causing any real problems some "polite advice" and their response is to become defensive, that's your hint that you shouldn't have said anything at all. Pushing the issue to the extent of booting them from the party because they aren't living up to your ideals is at the heart of elitism. Live and let live. Give peace a chance. Keep your mouth shut.
#223HocusP, Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 4:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) When you make the choice to group, you are making the choice to become part of that team. As a part of that team, if someone is telling you a way you can be more effective and improve everyones time, then you shouldn't get defensive.
#224 Jul 10 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
When you make the choice to group, you are making the choice to become part of that team. As a part of that team, if someone is telling you a way you can be more effective and improve everyones time, then you shouldn't get defensive.


Yes, a group is a team. No, a person is not under the obligation to follow the advice of anyone else in the group. If their actions are repeatedly causing problems, then yes...it makes sense that someone speak up to correct the issue. If it's a case of a difference between "adequate" and "the way some socially inept dork thinks it should be done," adequate is the standard. Nothing more. For as much good advice people get in parties, there's as much or more bad advice. We're not talking about people who have sought a spot in a top end-game group. We're talking general situations. In a game like FFXI where you pretty much have to group to get anything worthwhile done at a reasonable speed, you have to take the good with the not-as-good.
#225 Jul 10 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Gear swapping in FFXIV should not be a major part of combat. Yes, in FFXI there are A LOT of situational gear. I honestly like the idea of gear swapping to some degree, however there should be a penalty for it. If you are actively engaged in combat, you are not going to put on a new shirt, pants, rings, neck, helmet, etc, etc just for that Weaponskill. Not in real life at least.

From a game play standpoint, I have a lot of issues with swapping gear as melee. Many MMOs these days have gone as far as stopping all equipment swapping and given you a "primary" and "secondary" weapon choice so you can swap between them and only them during combat. As melee, I would prefer the WoW-esque version allowing you to swap any weapon/shield at anytime during combat.

For non combat-mode combat, I have no issue with being able to change any piece of gear at any time. If I am not actively wielding my weapon or being physically attacked then why couldn't I put on a new pair of pants, shoes? shirt.

In the end, gearing is going to be all about how they actually deal with gear. I certainly hope its more inline with the current version of FFXI and not a game such as WoW. Please stay away from the ilvl gear model or even the "base statitstics" plus a small bonus based on level to use that Aion is doing. Gear in FFXI proved to be a worthwild reward for effort. In games such as WoW it was just a paperdoll reward, since there was always something better around the bend.
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#226Banggugyangu, Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 6:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're the epitome of what I call "baby-sitting society". You feel that someone doing something in a wrong manner is tolerable, but someone calling them out is completely out of line. I can't, for the life of me, understand why people have become so offended by someone standing up for what's right. Allow me to say this. If I join your party, and you don't put forth enough effort for me to feel that my time spent is worthwhile, then I will leave. If you join MY party, you had better put for the best effort that your ability gives. I'm talking about an attitude. "Polite advice" isn't criticism. I don't call someone out in front of everyone else. I send a tell. Usually the very first thing I say is this: >> Mind if I give you a bit of advice? Nearly everyone responds with "Sure :-D". I give them the advice and that's usually where it turns sour, if it does indeed turn bad. Many people choose to let me tell them my opinion before their attitude turns to crap. I also always make sure to do my best to ensure them that I'm merely offering sound advice from an experienced player for the betterment of THEM. It's not as if I force them to go buy whatever gear I suggest. Usually gear that I suggest is stuff that would, in turn, save them money by being cheaper alternatives to what they already have.
#227 Jul 10 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:
You're the epitome of what I call "baby-sitting society". You feel that someone doing something in a wrong manner is tolerable, but someone calling them out is completely out of line.


I'm not sure who you think you are that you're entitled to label other people as "wrong" because they don't play the game the way you think they should.

Quote:
I can't, for the life of me, understand why people have become so offended by someone standing up for what's right.


Riiiiiight.

Quote:
Allow me to say this. If I join your party, and you don't put forth enough effort for me to feel that my time spent is worthwhile, then I will leave.


Good for you.

Quote:
If you join MY party, you had better put for the best effort that your ability gives.


So tell people that before you invite them. "Hey, you need to perform up to my standards if you want to remain with the group...that ok with you?"

Quote:
I'm talking about an attitude.


That's nice. Check yours while you're at it.

Quote:
"Polite advice" isn't criticism. I don't call someone out in front of everyone else. I send a tell. Usually the very first thing I say is this: >> Mind if I give you a bit of advice? Nearly everyone responds with "Sure :-D". I give them the advice and that's usually where it turns sour, if it does indeed turn bad.


I'm guessing your delivery sucks, and you think you're approaching it in one way when you're actually approaching it in a different way. Or you're exaggerating and dramatizing their responses. One of the two. It's not something either of us can get a concrete answer to. I just have a hunch.

Quote:
Many people choose to let me tell them my opinion before their attitude turns to crap. I also always make sure to do my best to ensure them that I'm merely offering sound advice from an experienced player for the betterment of THEM.


Ohhhh...because they NEED to be better or you're going to boot them. You'll boot them because they're not good enough and that teaches them to be better. I see. By offering advice and then giving people a hard time up to and including booting them is strictly for THEIR benefit. It has nothing to do with your ego, or your e-peen, or your expectations of performance. At all.

Got ya.

Quote:
It's not as if I force them to go buy whatever gear I suggest.


I think it would be funny if you were to try.

Quote:
Let me ask you something. If someone working a job puts forth no effort on their job, do you feel that this person should not be subject to "polite criticism" followed by termination should they choose to not adhere to the criticism?


Don't bring employment/contract conventions into a game. At all. ****-poor analogy is ****-poor.

Quote:
My issue is this. It's your $12.95 when you're soloing. It's the rest of your PT's $64.75 when you're in a PT. If you want to be a princess that will get your way or the highway, make your own party or go solo. If you make a party, and I'm dissatisfied with it *employee facing a situation where the employer fails to meet the employee's needs* for whatever reason, it's then my decision and right to leave the party.


It's your $12.95 in the party. That entitles you to STFU when someone else' $12.95 tells you they aren't interested in your "advice."
#228HocusP, Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 6:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Your 12.95 gives you the right to play the game anyway you want to, but my 12.95 gives me the right to not play with anybody I want to also. The confusion is this, I'm (or the leader) not telling you how to play the game, I'm telling you how to play the game when you are playing with us. When you are playing with others or by yourself, by all means play anyway you see fit, but when my time is involved then my 12.95 is just as good as your 12.95. If you are the leader, then you can play how you want to, I will just exclude myself from the party, which my 12.95 gives me the right to do (play with who I want to).
#229 Jul 10 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
The confusion is this, I'm (or the leader) not telling you how to play the game, I'm telling you how to play the game when you are playing with us.


How delightfully noble of you.
#230 Jul 10 2009 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lead by example, not by picking up your ball and running away like little girls when the EXP/hr could be x% better. If you're generally impressive, then maybe they'll ask for your advice instead. Generally speaking, gear criticisms can't be fixed mid-group. Moreover, bailing does affect their play when parties dissolve while you passive aggressively try to force your agenda.
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#231 Jul 10 2009 at 8:56 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Quote:
If you join MY party, you had better put for the best effort that your ability gives.


So tell people that before you invite them. "Hey, you need to perform up to my standards if you want to remain with the group...that ok with you?"


I don't know if you're trying to be a troll, or just too stupid that you cannot understand English.

My "standard" for any party that I'm in is that no person in the party is a lazy *******. If I call someone out on that, and they don't change, then I do what is proper based on my position in the party.

Furthermore, the employment thing was a metaphor. A comparison. It's also a fairly accurate comparison. This is what makes me think you are just trolling. Either way, however, I have to admit that you're good at making yourself look like a jackass.
#232 Jul 10 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Quote:
If you join MY party, you had better put for the best effort that your ability gives.


So tell people that before you invite them. "Hey, you need to perform up to my standards if you want to remain with the group...that ok with you?"


I don't know if you're trying to be a troll, or just too stupid that you cannot understand English.

My "standard" for any party that I'm in is that no person in the party is a lazy *******. If I call someone out on that, and they don't change, then I do what is proper based on my position in the party.

Furthermore, the employment thing was a metaphor. A comparison. It's also a fairly accurate comparison. This is what makes me think you are just trolling. Either way, however, I have to admit that you're good at making yourself look like a jackass.


Funny thing is, I boot people like you from groups.

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 10:12pm by AureliusSir
#233 Jul 10 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't, for the life of me, understand why people have become so offended by someone standing up for what's right.


I lol'd.

Look, the bottom line is that people play to have fun. If your idea of fun is leet xp/hour, then yes, that means you're probably an elitist and people aren't going to be especially receptive to your input. The reason is pretty simple-- your goal is to get xp/hour, and theirs is to have fun playing a social game. When you start treating the game like there's some kind of employer/employee relationship, you can imagine that it ruins the fun of everyone who's not thinking in terms of xp/hour or $/hour.

If the social element of the game does not come before the element of progressing your character for you, then here's a tip. What you probably like about the social aspect is putting yourself on a pedestal and letting other people see how great you are. But what many people like is the opportunity to play a fun game with friends and potential friends first and foremost, and progressing their character is just a means to that end.

And if the social element does come first for you, then here's a tip. Doing well in the game is a part of the fun, and so is figuring out how to do that on your own. When you try to tell people how to play without them asking, they aren't going to look at you as a wise, revered coach, but as a backseat driver who needs to stfu and let them drive their own **** car.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#234 Jul 10 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I really think the issue had a lot more to do with stat allocation and itemization, not so much gear swapping.

There's really no reason that there should be so many beneficial stats for a class given the varying situations. It drove me crazy when I played.

I can think of several more realistic ways to add difficulty and standards to a game. They wouldn't promote garbage back-and-forth about just what gear swapping really entailed.

You're really not all that much better than someone else because you know when to hit two buttons.

I'm sorry if this was brought up already. I just found this forum, and I tried reading through the last couple pages of the thread, I really did. It was rough.

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 2:28am by CBD
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#235Shazaamemt, Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 10:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) GEAR SWAPPING IS TO FFXI WHAT UI MODDING IS TO WOW.
#236 Jul 10 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
GEAR SWAPPING IS TO FFXI WHAT UI MODDING IS TO WOW.

No, you don't NEED to do it. But fewer people are going to want to play with you, and you will receive many messages from other players telling you to either start swapping gear in FFXI or pick up deadly boss mods and omen in WoW.

EVERY MMO IS GOING TO HAVE SOME ASPECTS THAT ARE FOR ELITISTS. THE DEVELOPERS CANNOT CONTROL THIS, THE PLAYERBASE WILL CREATE IT. THESE ASPECTS WILL BECOME A COMMONPLACE TACTIC FOR THE PLAYERS WHO STRIVE TO BECOME BETTER AT THE GAME.

It's human nature. You will play with humans in an MMO.


My goodness, you are getting awfully excitable about this topic. It's really not that serious.

The developers are easily in control of what will set the good players in their game apart from the average and mediocre. I said that there are several better ways to separate these players other than gear swapping - ways that don't involve "wasting" inventory space, ways that don't involve issues with "reality."

When I played FFXI, I gear swapped. If I still played it, I would be gear swapping. When I play WoW, I UI mod. But god ****, I'd sure love to not have to have DBM screaming at me all the time.
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#237 Jul 10 2009 at 11:11 PM Rating: Default
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sorry I wasn't 'screaming' at you CBD, I actually didn't see your comment before posting mine.

I am just sick of the whole 'but people will be elitist' argument that pops up on this forum. No matter how many times it is argued that 'people will always be elitist' it doesn't seem to matter. Had absolutely nothing to do with your post.

And if I seem a bit 'excitable' well.. It must have been the caps. They are just there so that people who just skim the threads read the one point I think is important. You did.
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#238 Jul 11 2009 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
EVERY MMO IS GOING TO HAVE SOME ASPECTS THAT ARE FOR ELITISTS. THE DEVELOPERS CANNOT CONTROL THIS, THE PLAYERBASE WILL CREATE IT. THESE ASPECTS WILL BECOME A COMMONPLACE TACTIC FOR THE PLAYERS WHO STRIVE TO BECOME BETTER AT THE GAME.


Not true. Lately there are many games with online modes that don't have so much elitism. They have players who are substantially more skilled than others, yes. But these people aren't "elite" purely by virtue of investing large amounts of playtime into the game. Some of them do work very hard, and some are just very talented. ****, there are already MMOs out there that are much more casual and in which elitism is a footnote if it exists at all.

I don't think anyone here is really complaining about "elitism" if it involves actual skill. But elitism in FFXI at least has little to do with skill, and much to do with how much of your free time you're willing to sacrifice.

And for a long time I was "leet." People would be downright amazed when I showed up to a party and throughout it as well. People would actually aspire to be like me. And for a while that was actually pretty gratifying.

But having said that, I was a high level crafter, and for me manipulating the crafting system to make obscene amounts of money was at that stage in the game a rewarding challenge. But eventually even crafting became monotonous, and making money was a grind (well, it was always somewhat of a grind, but there was at least a little strategy to handling your gil). And after some period of time the leet stuff I had was still getting replaced with newer, leeter stuff.

See, I was an "amazing" player partially because I knew how to make money, and partially because the game mechanics in FFXI are really pretty simple and the learning curve didn't throw me like it did many players. But primarily I was such a good player because I GRINDED AND GRINDED AND GRINDED for better gear. I spent more time on it than other people, and yes, I spent it more efficiently too, but I still spent a lot of time working to better my character. At some point, it was no longer bettering me as a player at all, just wasting my time. My character kept growing, but I didn't.

And you can be elite without being an elitist. I never expected other people to live up to my caliber of play. I was always very gracious when they were impressed by me. I took it as a compliment that I was able to recognize the importance of money in the game and find a fair and effective way to get it, and apply that to an impressive performance with non-standard setups (I even took it as a compliment on the many times I was accused of buying gil, because it said to me that I was doing a literally unbelievable job). And I find this same trend in games that are more skilled based and less grind based. The people who are on top don't look down on the "lesser" players as often. They're just happy to be on top.
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#239 Jul 11 2009 at 12:52 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

And you can be elite without being an elitist. I never expected other people to live up to my caliber of play.


I completely understand and agree with your views in your last post.

But I think it is inevitable that elitists will show up. Especially in FFXIV where a number of ex-FFXI and ex-WoW players will show up. Both games have elitist players that are just itching for the chance to jump on a new MMO.

Quote:

Not true. Lately there are many games with online modes that don't have so much elitism.


Not that I don't believe you, but I just haven't played any game like that. Please show a reference. Even maple story has elitists...

Dunno why, but it seems Maple Story has become the 'safe' MMO to reference when talking about MMO inefficiencies here. Then again, eventually a 'stop hating on Maple Story' thread might pop up.
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#240 Jul 11 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Well there's a fine line between being an elitist and just being a ****, and yes, pretty much any game I can list has ***** who are in the upper echelon of players within that game.

But a game like FFXI really caters to elitism. Even people who are generally not ***** become impatient in a game like FFXI. FFXI would test Mother Theresa's patience.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#241 Jul 11 2009 at 1:22 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

But a game like FFXI really caters to elitism. Even people who are generally not ***** become impatient in a game like FFXI. FFXI would test Mother Theresa's patience.


Every MMO I can think of caters to elitism in some form. In WoW there are people flying around on iron protodrakes. In FFXI there are people with relic weapons.

My point is that there will be ***** and elitists no matter what game it is. You might have noticed it more in FFXI because you didn't have that relic weapon, I might have noticed it more in WoW because I didn't have that iron protodrake. (just an example, I don't have a relic weapon or an iron proto-drake).

I fail to see how FFXI catered to elitism any more than another MMO in its rewards or gameplay, aside from the fact that it took far more time to play the game, and some of the endgame was just completely ridiculous (like AV or pandy warden). For most WoW players the thought of algalon being defeated is just as hard, and gives players just as much of an 'elitist' attitude. (I would give similar examples in WAR or AoC but I just didn't play them as much).

I think a great deal of the reason people see FFXI as having been more 'elitist' is because it was bred into the game by allowing the Japanese audience access to the game far in advance of the rest of the world, in combination with shared servers. By the time NA players got the game, the JP audience was already into the Zilart missions and had leveled far further, shunning the new gamers. By the time the EU audience got the game, a similar thing had occurred with the NA players.

By the time a late adopter to the series joined (say those who came aboard with ToAU because they could finally play a blue mage or a corsair), there were a great deal of players who didn't want to party up with a newbie. Or if your introduction to the game was the xbox 360 release, there was an obvious bias to those new to the game with xbox, mostly because of the fact that they would be joining years after the other players started.

If that is what you meant by 'FFXI catered to elitism' then I totally understand. It was an aspect brought forth by bad planning on SE's part, and by the unexpected re;ease of the game in europe and on the 360.

The only similar foul up in WoW I can think of is the bias against Death Knights when WotLK was released. Which continues today in many parts of the game (partially because of bliz's inability to balance the class pre-release, and partially because of player bias).
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#242 Jul 11 2009 at 6:37 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
I can't, for the life of me, understand why people have become so offended by someone standing up for what's right.


I lol'd.

Look, the bottom line is that people play to have fun. If your idea of fun is leet xp/hour, then yes, that means you're probably an elitist and people aren't going to be especially receptive to your input.


I have stated multiple times that it's NOT... However my idea of the anti-fun is 5 people *myself included* doing all the work in a party while 1 person puts forth no effort and leeches. Why the **** are people confusing "make an effort" with "be top notch or gtfo"?
#243 Jul 11 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:

I have stated multiple times that it's NOT... However my idea of the anti-fun is 5 people *myself included* doing all the work in a party while 1 person puts forth no effort and leeches. Why the **** are people confusing "make an effort" with "be top notch or gtfo"?


I'm not sure how you feel having a macro that automates a process based on the skill you're using represents such an enormous amount of extra effort that anyone not using one (or several) is "leeching". Personally, I just think there's a fundamental disconnect between your idea of the "right" way to play the game and realistic expectations of other players.
#244 Jul 11 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Default
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Assuming SE will do as they say and make things more soloable, then this problem will be much less of an issue. If you wanna go have fun, by all means run around killing stuff with a staff naked if you want too. As long as you are doing it solo or not with me in the group.

When you join a group, it is not all about you and your fun anymore. Its about the team that you have just joined, and everybody's idea of fun may not be your idea of fun. My idea of fun might be training and fighting multiple mobs, that doesn't mean others in my team want to fight that way. There is a reason there are only 1 leader in a party, and you can either listen to positive inputs or choose to play without them.

If there is more solo content, then choosing to play without people will become much easier. Since SE, already said that there would be more solo content, I am expecting the expectations (or elitism) within a group environment to become even worst.





Edited, Jul 11th 2009 12:27pm by HocusP
#245 Jul 11 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Assuming SE will do as they say and make things more soloable, then this problem will be much less of an issue. If you wanna go have fun, by all means run around killing stuff with a staff naked if you want too. As long as you are doing it solo or not with me in the group.

When you join a group, it is not all about you and your fun anymore. Its about the team that you have just joined, and everybody's idea of fun may not be your idea of fun. My idea of fun might be training and fighting multiple mobs, that doesn't mean others in my team want to fight that way. There is a reason there are only 1 leader in a party, and you can either listen to positive inputs or choose to play without them.

If there is more solo content, then choosing to play without people will become much easier. Since SE, already said that there would be more solo content, I am expecting the expectations (or elitism) within a group environment to become even worst.


That would be all well and good in the context of gear swapping, except I'm still waiting for someone to come along and provide some definitive numbers on exactly what kind of performance boost were talking about relative to a particular objective.

I'll give you an example of a case where performance expectations take on a tangible meaning as opposed to simply a bunch of elitist rambling. In WoW, the expectation of dps classes in a 5-man heroic dungeon is 1500 dps. That's a concrete, measurable number. It's also very, very attainable for anyone who is adequately geared and who does more than roll their face back and forth across the keyboard. If every dps class in the party is doing that 1500 dps, there's never going to be a case where you can't put out enough damage to get the job done before the healer goes OOM (assuming an adequately geared/skilled healer and tank). Players can afford to do a little less than that 1500, and most people give quite a bit of leeway in that regard. At the time I stopped playing WoW, it was not at all uncommon for dps to do over 3000dps in a given run...that gives you an idea of how low the "baseline" threshold was set.

Obviously, just being capable of that minimum standard doesn't indicate that the run will be successful. Players still have to follow common grouping strategies and still have to execute on the boss strategies, but the ability to do 1500+ dps was the foundation.

Naturally you'd get elitist dorks spewing about how even 1500 dps was crap and a player "should" be able to do 2-2.5k easily yadda yadda yadda but the bottom line is that anything above 1500 was gravy. So when you get your level 80 toon running around rocking out a whopping 800dps in a heroic run, that tells you they seriously don't know what they're doing, and if it comes down to a case where you've got people like that in a group and the group is struggling, changes would frequently be made either by removing that person or just calling the run.

The difference between that scenario and gear swapping is that you can say to someone, "The standard dps for heroics is 1500; if you're not able to do that, either someone else has to pick up your slack or we're not going to be able to kill the mobs before the healer goes OOM which means we can't succeed."

See how that works? Notice that it doesn't involve telling someone what to do or how to play their class/job. It's setting an objective minimum standard and holding people accountable to it based on the content the group is trying to succeed in. Compare that to gear swapping where there is no stated objective other than "better" and their are no concrete minimum standards to compare oneself to. Part of that is the mechanics of FFXI that don't allow for the precise and objective measuring of performance without the use of a third party application. Part of it is SE's cryptic and not entirely helpful choices around stat influences on specific spells/abilities. Most of it is a case of either the folks in this thread being the wrong people to talk to about the practical applications of theorycraft in FFXI, or the inability of theorycrafters in FFXI to translate concept/function to application.

If FFXIV is to include a more transparent system for determining which stats affect which abilities and to which extent as well as an in-game parsing feature to evaluate performance on an objective scale, heavy advocates of gear swapping would have something to work with (assuming gear swapping in FFXIV is permitted at all). As it stands, expecting, requiring, or demanding gear swapping in order to prevent the label of "lazy" or "leech" in FFXI has no objective basis, ergo thos demands and/or expectations are not more than elitist dribble.

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 11:00am by AureliusSir
#246 Jul 11 2009 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
GEAR SWAPPING IS TO FFXI WHAT UI MODDING IS TO WOW.


Not entirely. In terms of expectations of the playerbase, possibly. In terms of function, not at all. Raiding guilds require the use of addons such as Omen and DBM/BigWigs because there's no reason not to have/use them if you're serious about raiding. There's no excuse to be botching threat on a regular basis. There's no excuse to be missing key events in an encounter and getting yourself and/or the raid gibbed on a regular basis. It doesn't require an additional grind for gear and it doesn't require that players tie up additional inventory space. Those addons are designed to give players direct feedback on different components of a given encounter.

The key difference between the use of addons in WoW and gear swapping is that if you're not using Omen or DBM/BigWigs and you're still performing well without botching threat or missing transitions, nobody will know or care. Guilds don't require Omen/BigWigs for the sake of requiring them or based on some obscure concept of performance increase; they require them because they exist and help to reduce/eliminate human error. If you can avoid those errors without the addons, you're golden. People who demand everyone in a group be gear swapping in FFXI apparently have no tangible performance standard to compare people to other than the fact that they're swapping gear and swapping gear makes them better but how much better we don't know because our understanding of theorycraft hasn't evolved that far but we know that better is better and gear swapping is better so swap gear or gtfo (in a nice way) because that's what we do in this game.

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 10:23am by AureliusSir
#247Banggugyangu, Posted: Jul 11 2009 at 1:50 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not one to usually resort to insults, but you're so stupid it's painful to argue with you. Re-read all of my posts please. You'll see that I've stated that gear swapping doesn't necessarily make a better player. Gear swapping itself isn't the effort. The problem is, most people who don't gear swap that I have come across, are the ones that live by the idea of "It's my $12.95, I'll play the way I want." and are too lazy to put forth any effort and pull their own weight.
#248 Jul 11 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

I have stated multiple times that it's NOT... However my idea of the anti-fun is 5 people *myself included* doing all the work in a party while 1 person puts forth no effort and leeches. Why the **** are people confusing "make an effort" with "be top notch or gtfo"?


Let me just ask you this. Do you kick someone out of a party because they're incompetent, a ****, or both? Do you think that all incompetent players are being ******

As for why FFXI caters more to elitism than other games, yes, the staggered released did contribute, but the primary reasons are the large time investments and relative lack of actual skill. The problem is not that there's a gap between great and poor players, but that that gap is decided by people who have the most time on their hands.

A lot of the other games out there with "elitism" amount to nothing more than your typical "***** being ************ Or immature middle-schoolers who have no social skills unhindered by the anonymity of the internet. So again, if your argument is that there will always be ****** then sure, you're right.

But in FFXI, there are plenty of otherwise cool people who suffer from a case of the leets, because it is such a taxing game. And it's usually not a matter of "wow, they really don't know what they're doing and/or are being a jerk," but, "this guy is killing my xp/hour, and the game is no fun if I'm not getting good xp/hour... hey, this guy is ruining my fun!" See, skill doesn't compensate for much in XI, so the way to appease an elitist is to grind for some better gear.

Aw ****, why belabor the point. I'll just let FFXI speak for itself. To get one of the best **** fishing rods, you have to get 10,000 moat carp. And then you get this:

Quote:
"This certifies that you have gathered no less than ten thousand carp. Please spend your time in a manner more beneficial to society. Your achievment is noteworthy for its utter lack of meaning.

With heartfelt disapproval,
Gallijaux & Joulet


When the game is telling you that you're wasting a lot of time playing it, but expects you to do so anyway to get the best gear, maybe it's time to start "hating the game, not the player."
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#249 Jul 11 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread sure got driven into the ditch quickly.

What ever happened to debating the pros and cons of gear swapping?
#250 Jul 11 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Morsmorde wrote:
This thread sure got driven into the ditch quickly.

What ever happened to debating the pros and cons of gear swapping?


That sir, is madness.

In reality, though, there isn't much else to do on the FFXIV forum. It's about as fruitful as politicians discussing the impact of Obama's administration's policies in the year 2010, but with less name-calling.
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#251 Jul 11 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

I'm not sure how you feel having a macro that automates a process based on the skill you're using represents such an enormous amount of extra effort that anyone not using one (or several) is "leeching". Personally, I just think there's a fundamental disconnect between your idea of the "right" way to play the game and realistic expectations of other players.


I'm not one to usually resort to insults, but you're so stupid it's painful to argue with you. Re-read all of my posts please. You'll see that I've stated that gear swapping doesn't necessarily make a better player. Gear swapping itself isn't the effort. The problem is, most people who don't gear swap that I have come across, are the ones that live by the idea of "It's my $12.95, I'll play the way I want." and are too lazy to put forth any effort and pull their own weight.


Ya...I had already read your posts. Even the sub-default ones. Then, at your suggestion in an attempt to be a good sport I read them again. Well, as far as I could manage before I was just really, really bored. I do, however, retract my statement about you being an elitist.

You have to have a clue to be an elitist.

You're a wanna-be elitist. And that's even worse.
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