Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Gear SwapsFollow

#252 Jul 11 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Default
******
48,703 posts
Bardalicious wrote:
In reality, though, there isn't much else to do on the FFXIV forum.
That's because there is only a two minute preview intro video*, zero gameplay information**, and a vague promotional press release. Truthfully, the forum shouldn't even exist since all that is being "discussed" is mindless hoping.

* - Think of it as the video that plays when you pop in a disc but don't actually start playing. Like this.
** - No, that video does not show any gameplay. No, the press release doesn't actually say anything.


Edited, Jul 11th 2009 7:39pm by lolgaxe
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#253Banggugyangu, Posted: Jul 11 2009 at 3:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You have just proven yourself to be a troll. Congratulations, you succeeded. So now I'm officially done replying to your posts that are mainly irrelevant arguments toward multiple points as if they're related to one another despite that they aren't whatsoever.
#254 Jul 11 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
****
5,684 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
Bardalicious wrote:
In reality, though, there isn't much else to do on the FFXIV forum.
That's because there is only a two minute preview intro video*, zero gameplay information**, and a vague promotional press release. Truthfully, the forum shouldn't even exist since all that is being "discussed" is mindless hoping.

* - Think of it as the video that plays when you pop in a disc but don't actually start playing. Like this.
** - No, that video does not show any gameplay. No, the press release doesn't actually say anything.


Edited, Jul 11th 2009 7:39pm by lolgaxe


That was kind of my point.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#255lolgaxe, Posted: Jul 11 2009 at 4:08 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sure, you get it, and I get it, but there are also eleven pages worth of threads of varying sizes of people who don't. Just spelling it out for those people just what is known about the game. As in: Nothing.
#256 Jul 11 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Banggugyangu wrote:

You have just proven yourself to be a troll. Congratulations, you succeeded.


Do you even know what a troll is?

All you've said is basically, "People have to do what I say because even though I pretend to be nice, if they don't, I leave. Unless I'm the leader. Then I boot them. Also, I'm not an elitist. Oh, and I have no other points so go re-read my posts that also have no point so that you'll see what my point is. Or isn't. I dunno anymore. You're a troll."

Quote:
So now I'm officially done replying to your posts that are mainly irrelevant arguments toward multiple points as if they're related to one another despite that they aren't whatsoever.


You just had to try and type that while you were in the middle of having a stroke, didn't you? Go ahead...try again.

Quote:
Morsmorde, this thread went downhill because someone decided to go on a Holier-than-Thou crusade and reaffirm why I could never work in a human resources position.


Ya, you lack the people skills.
#257 Jul 11 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Personally I think the Wild Arms 2 intro is much better.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#258 Jul 11 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
****
5,684 posts
Aurel, don't feed the trolls.

AureliusSir wrote:

You just had to try and type that while you were in the middle of having a stroke, didn't you? Go ahead...try again.

ambiguous statement is ambiguous.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#259 Jul 11 2009 at 4:46 PM Rating: Default
******
48,703 posts
Kachi wrote:
Personally I think the Wild Arms 2 intro is much better.
Which one? Personally, while they were excellent, they sounded more "Jazz" than they did "Western" like 1's did. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz music, but it just didn't feel like the right sound for the game.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#260 Jul 11 2009 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,072 posts
That reminds me I've had Alter Code F for like 2 years now and have yet to actually play it.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#261 Jul 11 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Oh, the first one. Well, I can see how you might think that given the use of the trumpet, which is not typically associated with "Western." But the musical style is not consistent with jazz, and for what little I know of the western genre of music, the use of a trumpet is the only thing that deviates from the style, which is perfectly acceptable given that it has the melody. On second thought, I think it's more consistent with latin music, which does have a sort of jazzy sound (people who have a limited taste for orchestral music frequently like latin and jazz, and little else). That kind of latin music is associated with wild west type styles, like Zorro. So not as much the American view of the wild west.

Personally I just really like the timbre of the trumpet for that intro.

I've also had Alter Code F for too long, which remains unplayed. ****, still working on the first Disgaea. I hope to get through the remake of FF4 and the sequels before FFXIII releases as well. Sadly at this point I own probably three times more RPGs that I haven't played than those I have.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#262 Jul 12 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
**
629 posts
Kachi wrote:
Oh, the first one. Well, I can see how you might think that given the use of the trumpet, which is not typically associated with "Western." But the musical style is not consistent with jazz, and for what little I know of the western genre of music, the use of a trumpet is the only thing that deviates from the style, which is perfectly acceptable given that it has the melody. On second thought, I think it's more consistent with latin music, which does have a sort of jazzy sound (people who have a limited taste for orchestral music frequently like latin and jazz, and little else). That kind of latin music is associated with wild west type styles, like Zorro. So not as much the American view of the wild west.

Personally I just really like the timbre of the trumpet for that intro.

I've also had Alter Code F for too long, which remains unplayed. ****, still working on the first Disgaea. I hope to get through the remake of FF4 and the sequels before FFXIII releases as well. Sadly at this point I own probably three times more RPGs that I haven't played than those I have.


"Fist Full of Dollars" starring Clint Eastwood is such an example of a western movie whose soundtrack featured a trumpet played in a Spanish/latin style.
#263 Jul 12 2009 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
*
66 posts
Bardalicious wrote:
Morsmorde wrote:
This thread sure got driven into the ditch quickly.

What ever happened to debating the pros and cons of gear swapping?


That sir, is madness.

In reality, though, there isn't much else to do on the FFXIV forum. It's about as fruitful as politicians discussing the impact of Obama's administration's policies in the year 2010, but with less name-calling.


I'm not saying that it was speculation or whatever that pushed this thread over the cliff, I'm just saying that things got way off-topic there haha
#264 Jul 12 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
349 posts
Quote:
You have just proven yourself to be a troll. Congratulations, you succeeded. So now I'm officially done replying to your posts that are mainly irrelevant arguments toward multiple points as if they're related to one another despite that they aren't whatsoever.


Morsmorde, this thread went downhill because someone decided to go on a Holier-than-Thou crusade and reaffirm why I could never work in a human resources position.
I know I'm feeding the troll here but... Aurelius is not a troll. His posts are well thought out and have good reasons for them, even if you don't always agree hes usually respectful as long as people are respectful to him. The only holier then thou troll I smell on this thread is you.
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#265 Jul 14 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Default
Karelyn wrote:
I think you should be capable of switching armor in mid combat.

However, there is an extended animation sequence where your character strips down to their underwear, then put their new armor on.
I laughed so hard at this... and I totally agree. It would make it so much more realistic AND funny to see some mage stripping out of their clothing and putting on a new outfit in mid-battle.

netglen wrote:
I wish they could have added a Swiss-Army Staff
Swiss-Army Staff lol... "Oh crap... I didn't want the spork!!"

-----------------------------------------------------

Now then, my POV, simple as it is, is that it would be nice to have gear sets that make it unnecessary to gear-swap in mid-battle. But as such "overpowered" gear will never exist in a game due to the incessant need to "balance" everyone to the last detail or face the wrath of the lurking "Oh noez Job A is overpowered!!1oneleven! That gear makes them unbalanced!" crowd.... My thought is, if it has to be, it has to be... tho I'd prefer, as I said, gear that allows players not to "require" it to be.
#266 Jul 14 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Screenshot
#267pearlsea, Posted: Aug 06 2009 at 2:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm glad SE does not listen to their fans, especially English ones. Gear swaping for me was a lot of fun in FFXI. I LOVE to min/max and you could get gear that could perform the best for the individual action you were doing at that moment, not just something that was good overall. Also writing spellcast XMLs for some reason was fun, I got the same fun as I do writing scripts for source games.
#268Banggugyangu, Posted: Aug 11 2009 at 10:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It makes me giggle that so many people in this thread had been so adamant about their arguments against gear swapping, and we discover that gear swapping *although probably 100% different from the FFXI form* is going to be the center of the entire battle/party system in FFXIV.
#269 Aug 11 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
**
572 posts
We still don't know if you can swap gear in the middle of battle. Considering that your job changes when you change weapon, allowing changing armor and all your other equipment would make balancing the game impossible.
#270 Aug 11 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Default
47 posts
Quote:
By merely equipping any of a variety of weapons or tools, players can instantly change their active skills, thus enabling them to dramatically alter their style of play as well as their characters outward appearance.


Quoted from http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/

Their wont be gear swaps because gear swaps with your weapon...
#271 Aug 11 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
MightyPaddoz wrote:
Quote:
By merely equipping any of a variety of weapons or tools, players can instantly change their active skills, thus enabling them to dramatically alter their style of play as well as their characters outward appearance.


Quoted from http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/

Their wont be gear swaps because gear swaps with your weapon...


I saw no mention of gear changing anywhere in there. The only thing that came close was "outward appearances" which doesn't have to do with gear.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#272 Aug 11 2009 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
82 posts
Quote:
I'd rather SE focus on a new novel way to support a horizontal progressive endgame system than continue a flawed system based almost exclusively on equipment.


The point above is essentially the summary of this thread. I agree, flawed game mechanic or not, I shouldn't have to expose myself to perform better *no comments please* ;)
#273 Aug 11 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
Given all the information we have right now, I think it is fair to say Gear Swaps will play a major part in FFXIV.

(Albeit, it will be just swapping your weapon to switch jobs)

Gear Swapping is here to stay, just not in the same manner as FFXI. That much is confirmed.

Love it or hate it, you will be swapping gear, and you will probably make macros for it.
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#274 Aug 11 2009 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
**
415 posts
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
MightyPaddoz wrote:
Quote:
By merely equipping any of a variety of weapons or tools, players can instantly change their active skills, thus enabling them to dramatically alter their style of play as well as their characters outward appearance.


Quoted from http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/

Their wont be gear swaps because gear swaps with your weapon...


I saw no mention of gear changing anywhere in there. The only thing that came close was "outward appearances" which doesn't have to do with gear.


Can you clarify because what you just said doesn't make sense to me.
____________________________
http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571 - Mind Control Theories Used By Mass Media
#275 Aug 13 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
**
495 posts
Quote:
Given all the information we have right now, I think it is fair to say Gear Swaps will play a major part in FFXIV.

(Albeit, it will be just swapping your weapon to switch jobs)

Gear Swapping is here to stay, just not in the same manner as FFXI. That much is confirmed.

Love it or hate it, you will be swapping gear, and you will probably make macros for it.


I don't think people had problem with gear swaps in the sense that you can do it, it was swapping the in the middle of battle that people complained about so people can literally min/max for a particular ability and completely throw situational strategy out the window because you can max any ability or function with the touch of a button and a macro (in other words... situational gear eliminated everything else that relates to the word situational lol). If anything the fact that your gear is going be so dependant on your growth it makes me feel even more likely we won't beable to swap our 'armor' mid battle as a form of limitation on a system that would quite literally make you an omnipotent god otherwise without said limitations. (notice I said armor not weapons, I don't mind the possible job/weapon swap as long you can't swap gear mid battle) if SE does allow gear swapping and there is no inherrent limitations... I would be extremely wary on whether I want to play this game. I don't mind it in FFXI because when I joined it became inherrent part of the game that just couldn't be excorsized and definitely can't now since they are staying at lvl 75 and need situational/one time gear to just keep the game alive. So im not an advocate that says it needs to begone, but I definitely don't want THAT kind of gear swapping in this new game.

Gear sets for a situation/class (like they hinted at) is fine. On the fly in the middle of battle min/max swapping... **** NO!
#276 Aug 23 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
So happy you should be. No gear swaps in mid-battle is confirmed now. Thank heavens ^.^/. It will not even be possible to switch weapons while fighting.
#277 Aug 23 2009 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
In fairness, we only know that for weapons so far, but yes, it looks very likely that we won't have to deal with constant gear swaps. I'm hoping that this includes no armor swapping alongside the weaponswapping between battles, but that actually looks unlikely.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#278 Aug 23 2009 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
And it only means weapon swapping for different types of weapons- you might still be able to change from sword X to sword Y if your class doesn't change.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#279 Aug 23 2009 at 8:14 AM Rating: Decent
**
456 posts
Quote:
So happy you should be. No gear swaps in mid-battle is confirmed now. Thank heavens ^.^/. It will not even be possible to switch weapons while fighting.


You won't know this until you know more information. Its true you can't switch weapon types in battle but (I think) that is because it changes your job and whole play style. Changing your job mid-battle, does sound a little too much and should be limitied. We still don't know if you can change from a sword to another sword mid-battle.

This doesn't necessarily mean that you cant change some armor pieces mid battle though, unless I missed some kind of information. They said changing your weapon would also change your clothes and is not allowed mid-battle. I think that is kind of like changing your job (in the moghouse) on ffxi, it changes your clothes and you probally will have some pre-set armor connected to the weapon. This doesn't mean you can not change armor within that job though, mid-combat. Of course their will be more then just one piece of gear, so you could change gear mid-combat, without changing jobs (aka changing weapon). This has not been confirmed or denied yet, unless I missed some infortmation.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 12:16pm by HocusP
#280 Aug 23 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Well, the interview is pretty straight on that matter; you will not be able to switch weapons during battle (nothing mentioned of those being of different kind or not). At least the original version is.
You are right in a way that this does not automatically imply the inability to magically warp in and out of tons of steel armor plate at will - but well... If you cannot even switch to another weapon...?

Edit: Actually I just wanted to be mean and stick my dirty fingers in all those open wounds gearswap-fetishists were dealt during the last weeks, hahaha! Forgive, I didn't have dinner yet!

BTW, here is the respective passage of the interview:
4Gamer:
 戦闘中に武器の持ち替えは可能ですか。(Will it be possible to switch weapons during battle?)

田中氏: 
 それはできませんので,戦闘が終わったときに変えておく必要があります。(That is not possible, so you will have to change after the fight has ended.)

And now: Dinner time!

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 12:39pm by Rinsui
#281 Aug 23 2009 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
***
1,353 posts
I felt my IQ dropping as I read some these posts, so I stopped at page 1. I just have to say that anyone who thinks "realism" isn't an important part of a video game, has to be an idiot. Seriously. Do you know what realism is? Do you read any books at all? Is logic a concept that you can relate to?

Realism has very little to do with "like the world we live in" and I don't think some people can grasp that. Realism has to do with "believability" and "consistency." In a world with magic, is it realistic to cast magic? Yes. In a world with armor, is it realistic to swap your entire clothing set in .1 seconds, during a battle? **** no. Get it through your head.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#282 Aug 23 2009 at 2:59 PM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
Realism has very little to do with "like the world we live in" and I don't think some people can grasp that. Realism has to do with "believability" and "consistency." In a world with magic, is it realistic to cast magic? Yes. In a world with armor, is it realistic to swap your entire clothing set in .1 seconds, during a battle? @#%^ no. Get it through your head.


Back to this again, but why isn't it. For the most part people understand the meaning of realism in this thread. In a world of magic, I think its totally reasonable that there could be some magic spells or special ways to change armor mid battle. In thus, making you able to change gear anytime you want to mid fight, realistic in a world of magic. Now in ffxi, you didn't need a spell or anything but i'm just saying that it isn't so far off and unrealistic. In a world of magic when you can just blink in and out of armor regardless (The game doesn't require you to go to moghouse to change armor), what is stopping you from blinking in and out during a fight?

Thats my point, if I can blink in and out in .1 seconds when i'm doing nothing, what is stopping me from doing it in a battle? What makes it not realistic in this world, when I can switch gear in .1seconds in town when I just want too. The point i'm trying to make is whether I'm in battle or not the fact is I am switching gear in .1 seconds. So what is so special that while im in battle I suddenly can't change gear in .1 seconds like I could do anywhere else.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 7:01pm by HocusP
#283 Aug 23 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,353 posts
Quote:

Thats my point, if I can blink in and out in .1 seconds when i'm doing nothing, what is stopping me from doing it in a battle? What makes it not realistic in this world, when I can switch gear in .1seconds in town when I just want too. The point i'm trying to make is whether I'm in battle or not the fact is I am switching gear in .1 seconds. So what is so special that while im in battle I suddenly can't change gear in .1 seconds like I could do anywhere else.
Blinking into gear isn't a storyline dynamic though, it's something called a plot hole.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#284 Aug 23 2009 at 7:38 PM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
Blinking into gear isn't a storyline dynamic though, it's something called a plot hole.


Nowhere in the storyline dynamic does it say, you can't do it. Its just simply in the game, and if thats how you change gear (in the game), then I don't see a difference between in battle or doing nothing. Either way, I am blinking in and out armor in .1 seconds. Me not being in battle doesn't change the fact that I am still blinking in and out gear in .1 seconds.

I wouldn't mind if they changed this in ffxiv. I just don't understand how its realistic in one way but not in another way. If blinking in and out gear (in .1 seconds) is how you change gear in the game, then its realistic no matter where you are doing it. They should change how you change gear (the whole system), instead of just saying you can blink in and out when you are not doing anything, but when you are fighting you can't. In the realistic argument anyway, either something is realistic or not, but I don't see how it can be realistic here but not in battle.

We need more information on the battle system before we can confirm it either way. They said changing weapon types will change your job and is not allowed in mid-battle. I think changing your job mid-battle is over the top anyway. They have not said anything about gear changing, or even changing weapons of the same type (a sword for a sword). I am hoping we will get more information at TGS.
#285 Aug 23 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Don't even try. This guy is completely logic-proof. He is physically incapable of admitting when he's wrong, and at the same time unable to resist replying with absurd, laborious arguments.

On the other hand, there is something amusing about wasting his time.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#286 Aug 23 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
**
791 posts
I don't think HocusP has ever contributed anything relatively intellectual to any forum post ever. If you are a troll who is too stupid to know that you are a troll does that still make you a troll or would that make you some kind of super-troll?
____________________________


#287 Aug 23 2009 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
**
791 posts
I blanked, but here's the same thing people have been beating into your face for several posts; maybe it will stick this time:

The existence of dragons, goblins, magic, etc. is not at all unprecedented. These things have all existed in various forms in lore for centuries.

Look at it this way: unicorns, mermaids, leprechauns... all fantastical creatures, based on stretching truths or by blending 2 pre-existing things: a unicorn is a horse mixed with a rhino, a mermaid is a chick mixed with a fish, and a leprechaun is a drunken Irishman mixed with a magical midget. Point is: all imagined things and creatures have to have some kind of precedent in the real world to expand on and it must also be fantastical.

Assume for a moment that you had magical powers: would you spend all of your time developing a spell just so that you can get dressed in the morning 40 seconds faster? No, because it's ******* absurd.
____________________________


#288 Aug 23 2009 at 11:53 PM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Isn't gear swapping in the end just the signs of poor armor design? In other words, a proof that the armor you are wearing is really only benefiting you in parts of your battle when it should help you in the whole battle.

We simply needs less "This armor is for resting" "This armor is for avoiding getting hit" "This armor is for hitting" "This armor is for damage" "This armor is for looks" "This armor is for improving your earth magic" "This armor is to improve your water magic" and so on.

SE were too keen on making people different, that they forgot that "Being good at casting shell and protect" does not really make a person valuable for 1 party slot.
#289 Aug 23 2009 at 11:55 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
977 posts
Just because it is absurd, does not warrant that it does not follow X rules of Y world. If you have the ability to magically change into clothing of your choosing, I don't see anything extremely preposterous, especially when comepared to **** like this:

Quote:
a leprechaun is a drunken Irishman mixed with a magical midget




I don't see why you guys are so opposed to several gear sets. I found it to be a fun system, and allowed maximizing of your character different situations. Not to mention, you had a little variety in your appearance, as opposed to being stuck in one set of armor all the time.
____________________________
A drink. A drink. A drink.
#290 Aug 24 2009 at 12:30 AM Rating: Default
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
Assume for a moment that you had magical powers: would you spend all of your time developing a spell just so that you can get dressed in the morning 40 seconds faster? No, because it's @#%^ing absurd.


I was was a magical being that could cast burst ******* ii, then my clothes better dress me up without be even having to blink.

But hay, that's just me. lol at trying to use irrelevant semantics to fight against gear swapping. It's not like we can actually argue on the proper points of the subject anyway considering we don't know ****.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#291 Aug 24 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
It's pretty obvious when people are clinging to a sketchy mechanic because they enjoyed it despite the fact that there are just so many different ways a developer could allow players to achieve the same outcome without a cheezy solution like rampant mid-fight gear swapping.

I have to say, I didn't read anything saying that there would be no gear swapping with reference to armor/accessories. All I saw was that you couldn't swap your weapon in combat. There's a pretty distinct difference between, "You can't swap your weapon in combat. Also, changing weapons changes your armor etc." and "You can't swap your weapon in combat because that would cause you to change your armor and you can't change your armor in combat, either."

But then I read comments from people still clinging and grasping with (paraphrased) statements like, "Maybe it just means you can't change to a weapon that changes your class but you can swap like a sword for a sword."

No means no. "You can't change your weapon in combat." Weeee. Question meet answer.

Also...armor swapping as a cheezy mechanic is...true.

Look, if you want to talk about the outcome that is achieved by armor swapping in FFXI and that you'd like to see that opportunity carried forward into FFXIV, awesome. Tweaking and fiddling and (dare I say) min/maxing is an entertaining part of MMOs for an awful lot of people so I don't begrudge someone who wants opportunities to do just that in a new MMO. There are, however, much better ways to allow for that than swapping your clothes in the middle of a fight. It's just lame. Nobody says they loved the idea of blinking in and out of existence and the enormous stretch in continuity of immersion that it creates. They say they liked being able to leverage their understanding of their job to achieve improved results by circumstantial gear swaps.

They like being able to leverage their understanding of their job...

to achieve improved results...

stop.

It doesn't need to go any further. Why can't it just be an open ended statement to SE (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) to offer a more diverse combat system than what we saw in FFXI that can be utilized with faceroll simplicity for adequate results or picked apart, discussed, analyzed and then utilized to exceptional potency by a skilled and attentive player? That accomplished the same outcome as gear swapping...increased performance based on understanding of the combat mechanics...without the lame flicker and bags full of multiple gear sets.
#292 Aug 24 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
**
456 posts
Quote:
I don't think HocusP has ever contributed anything relatively intellectual to any forum post ever. If you are a troll who is too stupid to know that you are a troll does that still make you a troll or would that make you some kind of super-troll?


Learn the definition of a troll before you use it.
#293 Aug 24 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
No, I'll grant that you're not a troll. Completely clueless, but not intentionally antagonistic enough to be a troll.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#294 Aug 24 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
I believe the common definition of troll is "A person posting something you don't want to hear". Which is why it is so popular to call people trolls constantly.

In my opinion it usually fits better with calling someone clueless.
#295 Aug 24 2009 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Enlighten yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#296 Aug 25 2009 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
It doesn't need to go any further. Why can't it just be an open ended statement to SE (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) to offer a more diverse combat system than what we saw in FFXI that can be utilized with faceroll simplicity for adequate results or picked apart, discussed, analyzed and then utilized to exceptional potency by a skilled and attentive player? That accomplished the same outcome as gear swapping...increased performance based on understanding of the combat mechanics...without the lame flicker and bags full of multiple gear sets.


Or.. you can have both. Honestly the argument against gear swapping is laughable at best. It boils down to either "But I don't want to get lots of armor" or "Swapping gear in the middle of battle is silly!" The first of which is pure laziness, while the second of which is a semantics argument. By simply using a different system than "gear" for 'swapping' we eliminate that argument entirely.

I also can't help but laugh at "we want vertical progression instead of horizontal progression!" vertical progression is what you get before your character is maxed out in some way. If you don't have horizontal progression at any point in the game then that means that you're going to have to keep updating the games caps so that people can become strong and stronger vertically, and thus make everything before it useless. Sure, you introduce more content.. but at the same time you get rid of all the old content. There's no point in that. Not to mention when a game stops for a decent amount of time at a place of horizontal progression and then decides to make a vertical progression rendering everything you just did worthless.

I could go on arguing once again how a system that encourages 'swapping' makes more content worthwhile longer, and helps keep the economy going, etc, but there's no point until we know exactly how the game is going to work.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#297 Aug 25 2009 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:

Or.. you can have both. Honestly the argument against gear swapping is laughable at best. It boils down to either "But I don't want to get lots of armor" or "Swapping gear in the middle of battle is silly!" The first of which is pure laziness, while the second of which is a semantics argument. By simply using a different system than "gear" for 'swapping' we eliminate that argument entirely.


Not wanting to accumulate multiple gear sets is far from laziness. You're talking t a former RNG/NIN from FFXI and someone who has played all hybrid classes in WoW to the current level cap. I'm willing to invest the effort to develop a character, but doing that in large part through gear swapping is just a lame mechanic. SE has a chance to create a new system that offers more depth and more opportunities for skill to shine through in FFXIV without gear swapping as a part of the process. I'm hoping they exclude gear swapping as an option, if for no other reason than the FFXI neophytes can see how it works, play FFXIV and look back and say, 'Ya know, not having to swap my gear to achieve peak performance is actually kind of a relief."

Quote:
I also can't help but laugh at "we want vertical progression instead of horizontal progression!" vertical progression is what you get before your character is maxed out in some way. If you don't have horizontal progression at any point in the game then that means that you're going to have to keep updating the games caps so that people can become strong and stronger vertically, and thus make everything before it useless. Sure, you introduce more content.. but at the same time you get rid of all the old content. There's no point in that. Not to mention when a game stops for a decent amount of time at a place of horizontal progression and then decides to make a vertical progression rendering everything you just did worthless.


It's only worthless if you only play for the gear (and/or the e-peen extension that goes with it). If you play the game for the content, it doesn't matter whether or not it uses a primarily vertical progression system or a vertical system that changes into a horizontal system at some point in the future.

Quote:
I could go on arguing once again how a system that encourages 'swapping' makes more content worthwhile longer, and helps keep the economy going, etc, but there's no point until we know exactly how the game is going to work.


Gear swapping means people are inevitably going to be returning to content they may or may not be interested in doing...again...for the sake of feeding a broken mechanic. Take a look at games where old content remains playable indefinitely and see how many people volunteer to revisit it on a regular basis. You'll find that players speak with their choices and when their choices tend to revolve around focusing their time on current content it makes sense that developers would take note of that and focus their development efforts on new stuff, which lends itself more to vertical progression than horizontal progression based on how the players choose to play the game.

Again, you're getting very close to that line as a minority opinion hoping the game developer will create something that suits you at the expense of the majority. New content is never bad. If people want to revisit the old content, they will. Choice is a huge part of what ultimately creates a successful MMO. Removing or restricting that choice through the way the game is set up is just not smart business.
#298 Aug 25 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
977 posts
Honestly, I'd rather have to carry10 different gear sets than have a vertical progression. If every update outdates gear I spend many hours / days achieving, I'll be really upset. It seems like a system that just undermines achievements.



Again, you're getting very close to that line as a minority opinion hoping the game developer will create something that suits you at the expense of the majority



I'm not really sure why you'd comment that his opinion is in the minority?
____________________________
A drink. A drink. A drink.
#299 Aug 25 2009 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
Pluelf wrote:
Honestly, I'd rather have to carry10 different gear sets than have a vertical progression. If every update outdates gear I spend many hours / days achieving, I'll be really upset. It seems like a system that just undermines achievements.


I've never played an MMO where every update outdates gear from the preceding update. I've played MMOs where major content patches include gear that is a step up from the preceding content patch. I'd say there's a subtle but significant difference.

The benefit to vertical progression is that it encourages people to play the game for the sake of playing the game with emphasis shifted from farming <x> content umpteen times for <y> upgrade to progression through the content that yields the upgrades as you go.

I remember when I played FFXI, the NPCs in Dynamis that dropped the items necessary for the final relic upgrade were considered quite difficult to kill. I would imagine that has changed some over the years if for no other reason than more information available in conjunction with greater familiarity with the content, but the bottom line is that there was a time when just being able to kill those mobs was a substantial achievement for any Dynamis shell. What an awful shame it was that that achievement was overshadowed by the grind. If you saw someone running around with their final relic upgrade, people never said, "Wow! That guy is part of a shell that has cleared pretty much all Dynamis content!" They said, "Holy crap that guy has invested an insane amount of time into getting that weapon!"

I could see cries of dismay if you built a game around vertical progression with FFXI-style grinds attached to every upgrade. It helps if you delineate the two. Games that favor vertical progression don't have multiple year grinds for...anything. If you're part of a competent group of people, you'll be finishing up your gear progression from one batch of content roughly around the time the next batch of content comes out. The "work" for the majority of players comes from learning the content, not repeating it; farming it weekly for years. Success in the content is the achievement...the gear progression is the reward for it. If you can't succeed in a particular tier of content you aren't going to have a snowball's chance in **** in the next tier of content. Repeating content you've already succeeded in hundreds of times in the past is not an achievement. You haven't done anything new or different...you've just managed to get through it without offing yourself out of boredom. Yeehaw. Succeeding at something for the first time is a far more significant achievement for most people.

How would you feel about a game with absolutely no vertical progression at all? Your naked character would be the exact same 5 years after you had been playing the game as it was on the day you created it. All you ever did was grind for gear and then grind for more gear and more gear after that. How entertaining would that be in an RPG setting? Sounds to me more like an FPS where you just kill stuff and kill more stuff and eventually something drops a bigger gun than what you've got so you just go kill more stuff faster and easier for the next bigger gun. Tthat's what happens in games that set a hard cap for direct character progression and then flip to a horizontal system. You end up with characters that haven't directly progressed for months/years and all they've done is farm gear. They tweak here and there, they min-max through mid-combat gear swaps, and they say, "Hey, this is awesome! I'd rather do this than to continue with direct progression to include abundant new content!" I guess because the horizontal progression requires more repetition than simply picking up a BFG-9000 it suddenly fits with the RPG theme. Maybe. To some people. Whatever.

When you get right down to it, progression is progression is progression. One system (vertical progression) favors choice. The other system favors forced grinds. I dunno about you but I don't like being forced to do much of anything. Even if I'm doing something that I'd rather not be doing in a game or even in RL, there's a great deal of satisfaction to be had in knowing that at any given time I have the freedom to walk away and go do something else without having Big Brother come knocking at my door imposing all manner of sanctions on me for exerting my power to choose (excluding death and taxes, of course). Vertical progression makes it much easier for developers to foster that environment of choice. You can go over here and progress via this option or if you prefer what's over there you can go do that, too. Or you can do both. Or you can be creative and find a third option. When progression is hard coded around extremely limited BiS itemization, a huge chunk of that option to choose is taken from you.

Quote:
Again, you're getting very close to that line as a minority opinion hoping the game developer will create something that suits you at the expense of the majority



I'm not really sure why you'd comment that his opinion is in the minority?


All you have to do is play a game where the overwhelming majority of content persists indefinitely but vertical progression means people favor new content over the old stuff and you realize that most people are perfectly happy to spend their time in the fresh stuff and leave the dated stuff for the occasional romp from time to time. That's a choice made by the players, despite the whining you'll often see from the minority few who resent the fact that the developers have given the playerbase as a whole that choice rather than forcing people to take part in content they'd just as soon forgo for the sake of more recent offerings.
#300 Aug 27 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
Not wanting to accumulate multiple gear sets is far from laziness. You're talking t a former RNG/NIN from FFXI and someone who has played all hybrid classes in WoW to the current level cap. I'm willing to invest the effort to develop a character, but doing that in large part through gear swapping is just a lame mechanic. SE has a chance to create a new system that offers more depth and more opportunities for skill to shine through in FFXIV without gear swapping as a part of the process. I'm hoping they exclude gear swapping as an option, if for no other reason than the FFXI neophytes can see how it works, play FFXIV and look back and say, 'Ya know, not having to swap my gear to achieve peak performance is actually kind of a relief."


Rng/nin had very little gear swaps at all. Is calling it a "lame machanic" really the best reason to exclude it? I'm not asking for every single little action to need a full set of different gear, but I'd like to be able to switch my gear. When I played rogue there was an armor set that enhanced one of our abilities.. can't remember what it was. I wanted to get it so that I could macro it in for that move, but I found out that I couldn't. I also later found out that the gear was worthless because it had been completely replaced and nobody attempted to get it anymore.

Quote:
It's only worthless if you only play for the gear (and/or the e-peen extension that goes with it). If you play the game for the content, it doesn't matter whether or not it uses a primarily vertical progression system or a vertical system that changes into a horizontal system at some point in the future.


If you're playing for the content, you're going to be very sad if a game users a vertical progression system. Just like I was when I was playing rogue. I wanted to do those oh so awesome raids that everybody talked about, and what did I get when I got to them? "Yeah no, that place is worthless now, there's no reason to do it." Horizontal progression is more beneficial from a content point of view no matter how I look at it. What's the point of adding in new content if it means all the old content becomes unusable. "The old stuff was getting borring"? That's no reason to make it so that there's zero reason to ever do it again.

Quote:
Gear swapping means people are inevitably going to be returning to content they may or may not be interested in doing...again...for the sake of feeding a broken mechanic. Take a look at games where old content remains playable indefinitely and see how many people volunteer to revisit it on a regular basis. You'll find that players speak with their choices and when their choices tend to revolve around focusing their time on current content it makes sense that developers would take note of that and focus their development efforts on new stuff, which lends itself more to vertical progression than horizontal progression based on how the players choose to play the game.


As opposed to people not being able to do old content at all because nobody else is interested? I'll take the first, thank you very much. I also "volunteer" all the time. I haven't wanted anything from dynamis in over a year, well more than that if we go by a zone basis. But why do I still do it? Because it's not boring. (Your experiences may differ, I get to pull in my ls so I always spice everything up ;p)

Quote:
Again, you're getting very close to that line as a minority opinion hoping the game developer will create something that suits you at the expense of the majority. New content is never bad. If people want to revisit the old content, they will. Choice is a huge part of what ultimately creates a successful MMO. Removing or restricting that choice through the way the game is set up is just not smart business.


Take your own words and apply them to what I'm saying. I was restricted against my choice to go through content. The "problem" that you talk about is better solved by changing how much gear affects your play relative to skill, not by getting rid of usable mechanics. Gear swapping can still exist in a place where gear isn't as important as it is in ffxi.

Quote:
Games that favor vertical progression don't have multiple year grinds for...anything.
Using relic weapons as your argument... really? REALLY? Relics are for those who choose to grind for a year or more. You don't have to "grind" away to get af2 from dynamis, you don't have to "grind" away to get a hecatomb subligar from odin. But you'll be **** ******* glad that the time you spent getting that hecatomb subligar has a very, very slim chance of getting replaced.

Quote:
How would you feel about a game with absolutely no vertical progression at all? Your naked character would be the exact same 5 years after you had been playing the game as it was on the day you created it. All you ever did was grind for gear and then grind for more gear and more gear after that. How entertaining would that be in an RPG setting? Sounds to me more like an FPS where you just kill stuff and kill more stuff and eventually something drops a bigger gun than what you've got so you just go kill more stuff faster and easier for the next bigger gun. Tthat's what happens in games that set a hard cap for direct character progression and then flip to a horizontal system. You end up with characters that haven't directly progressed for months/years and all they've done is farm gear. They tweak here and there, they min-max through mid-combat gear swaps, and they say, "Hey, this is awesome! I'd rather do this than to continue with direct progression to include abundant new content!" I guess because the horizontal progression requires more repetition than simply picking up a BFG-9000 it suddenly fits with the RPG theme. Maybe. To some people. Whatever.


You seem to be of the mindset that horizinal progression means repeating only old content over and over and over and over again. This has never been the case. Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, Sea, Einherjar, Assault, Nyzul, ZNM, etc. All new content that was fun, stayed fun, and never made a whole bunch of previous content completely useless. Some things have been made useless; like the 3 beastmen kings; nobody kills them anybody, why? Because their gear is worthless now.

Quote:
One system (vertical progression) favors choice.


I can't see where your coming from with that statement. Vertical progression does not favor choice. If you want to do old content, nobody else does. You're forced to go with the mainstream. Let's say you didn't want to do the new content, say you liked what you were doing, let's use camping kings in ffxi as an example. Einherjar comes along, you can still do kings if you want and you don't have to do einherjar. Whereas in WoW when BC came along nobody would go do the level 60 raids with me anymore because they were worthless, nobody would farm rep with me in old areas because "it was worthless".
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#301 Aug 27 2009 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts
Quote:

When I played rogue there was an armor set that enhanced one of our abilities...I also later found out that the gear was worthless because it had been completely replaced and nobody attempted to get it anymore.


Quote:

If you're playing for the content, you're going to be very sad if a game users a vertical progression system. Just like I was when I was playing rogue. I wanted to do those oh so awesome raids that everybody talked about, and what did I get when I got to them? "Yeah no, that place is worthless now, there's no reason to do it."


::cough::

Content is becoming trivial all the time,
in every piece of armor overshadowed, every food item left to rot. Nobody cried when Meat Mithkabobs were replaced with Sushi, or grinding Raptors were replaced with grinding Colibri, even if that meant Valley of Sorrows is now abandoned. This was hailed as the advancement it was, and accepted as the new standard. When it suits us, armor, the mobs being fought, or place they're being fought in, is not something we necessarily have a drive to preserve.

What separates the suddenly-inconsequential-armor-one-couldn't-care-less-about and whole long impassioned threads is Experiences. This isn't about preserving the content, this is preserving the validity of a player's experiences when working through that content (which usually manifests in XI as proof-positive armor, but hopefully, some actual experience came out of those experiences as well.)

This is understandable, nobody wants their labor to be invalidated.

But it's also not the only means of keeping old content fresh and making sure player experiences are rewarded in a way that can't be undermined with a content patch. Which is why it's been summarily abandoned in the pursuit of the metagame, trailing behind as armor as a means of power/reward/validation has had to share the spotlight with Skill, Prestige, Privileges and Toys.



Edited, Aug 27th 2009 9:24pm by Zemzelette
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (20)