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Crafting BenefitsFollow

#1 Jun 25 2009 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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While crafting in FFXI was very deep and possibly the best system I've seen in an MMO.. I have to admit there were not really a lot of benefits to keep you going. I mean you got like glasses, and an apron?

What type of things would you want to see in crafting for FFXIV to make it more worthwhile? I mean custom armor? Even craft specific armor or consumables that only that craft can use?

#2 Jun 25 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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an idea was mentioned in another thread that I liked: have craft-related items drop with a higher frequency for those highly skilled in said craft. if you work with leather you should be able to salvage an animal hide more frequently, etc.
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#3 Jun 25 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmmm a system that feels like crafting would be a plus hehe, synthing never felt I was actualy building something. If you have the time and they are running a free promo I would sugest trying Vanguard for it's crafting.

It would be nice if there was less required rare bits to make gear people expect you to be wearing.. Not everyong was a jerk about my lack of scorpian harness but alot of people told me I needed to get one if I wanted to level DRG any further :P That was way back before the second expansion though.

I like systems where almost everything you might need is craftable, but there should be a balance so you can make do without the uberest gear.
#4 Jun 25 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It would be nice if there was less required rare bits to make gear people expect you to be wearing.. Not everyong was a jerk about my lack of scorpian harness but alot of people told me I needed to get one if I wanted to level DRG any further :P That was way back before the second expansion though.


Lol I felt the same way with my thief. This was when harnesses was at RMT peak also, which was kind of annoying.

but what about +1 items. Do you guys think they should stay? Or is the luxury priced items like this bring down the normal priced items too much?
#5 Jun 25 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I liked the guild items. Maybe they could throw in a storyline for each craft.. I'm kind of a CS nerd (especially when they played Recollection) and a sucker for a good story, so that would be a little motivation at least.

Other than that.... hmmm... groupies maybe?

Really, staying well funded without having to farm was about all the motivation I needed.
#6 Jun 25 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Just do NOT make it like WoW. Some people in that game regularly drop and re-level other crafts just to min/max their benefits (which is stupid considering how small the benefits are). I want the craft to be it's own reward.

Edited, Jun 25th 2009 10:06pm by Raymund
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#7 Jun 26 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Just do NOT make it like WoW. Some people in that game regularly drop and re-level other crafts just to min/max their benefits (which is stupid considering how small the benefits are). I want the craft to be it's own reward.


I completely agree. Make it so either you can level everything, or make it so that picking one thing and sticking to it is the way to go. I know a guy (who, admittedly, is addicted to WoW) who has had every skill at 450 on his paladin at one time or another, maybe with the exception of leatherworking. I want to pick a PROFESSION and stick to it. Give us a lot of choices, let us pick a few and work as a community to get what we want. No more of this "I can do it all" unless its "I can do it all at once".
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#8 Jun 26 2009 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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Litie wrote:
While crafting in FFXI was very deep and possibly the best system I've seen in an MMO..

Really? I honestly think it's one of the worst I've seen in any MMORPG. It's entirely about getting lucky and wasting massive amounts of time. What depth is there beyond "follow the recipe you were forced to look up on a gaming website?"

I think there are two main issues every crafting system needs to address.

1. High end utility. In some games crafted items just aren't on par with what you could get raiding, which made the craft not very useful. It's difficult to strike a balance between having some utility at end game without being able to mass produce high end items, but a balance needs to be struck.

2. Utility while leveling. I've never seen or heard of anyone in any game actually use their craft while leveling. I'm sure some do, but it is an incredibly rare occurrence. Crafting shouldn't be a separate grind. Something is wrong when I have a craft that is supposed to fit my calss but I haven't equipped anything from it in the last 10 levels. Something is wrong when I have to grind mobs 10 levels lower than me to get items for my craft.
#9 Jun 26 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think there are two main issues every crafting system needs to address.

1. High end utility. In some games crafted items just aren't on par with what you could get raiding, which made the craft not very useful. It's difficult to strike a balance between having some utility at end game without being able to mass produce high end items, but a balance needs to be struck.

2. Utility while leveling. I've never seen or heard of anyone in any game actually use their craft while leveling. I'm sure some do, but it is an incredibly rare occurrence. Crafting shouldn't be a separate grind. Something is wrong when I have a craft that is supposed to fit my calss but I haven't equipped anything from it in the last 10 levels. Something is wrong when I have to grind mobs 10 levels lower than me to get items for my craft.


This.

S-E, give us balance. I want crafting to have purpose, and a sense of reward afterwards.
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#10 Jun 26 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Litie wrote:
but what about +1 items. Do you guys think they should stay? Or is the luxury priced items like this bring down the normal priced items too much?


I think the +1 items were a great system. I know a lot of people complained about the randomness of getting an HQ synth, but I think it played an important role in making crafting a viable way to make money.

As the population of crafters increases, the cost of crafted items is always going to be driven down to the cost of the base materials. (or even below that if the item is a leveling synth). Likewise, the price of the +1 items will tend toward the cost of the average number of synths it takes to get a +1. If you get an HQ 10% of the time, then an HQ result will tend to cost 10 times the amount of a normal synth, unless there's a shortage of crafters.

What was great about FFXI's system was that, while on AVERAGE you'll get an HQ (for example) 10% of the time, in practice it varied so that sometimes you'd get more or less, depending on if you face the right direction, crafted on the right day, sacrificed the right tarutaru, etc. So you could get lucky streaks where you'd get an above average result, making a decent amount of money.

Allegory wrote:
1. High end utility. In some games crafted items just aren't on par with what you could get raiding, which made the craft not very useful. It's difficult to strike a balance between having some utility at end game without being able to mass produce high end items, but a balance needs to be struck.

2. Utility while leveling. I've never seen or heard of anyone in any game actually use their craft while leveling. I'm sure some do, but it is an incredibly rare occurrence. Crafting shouldn't be a separate grind. Something is wrong when I have a craft that is supposed to fit my calss but I haven't equipped anything from it in the last 10 levels. Something is wrong when I have to grind mobs 10 levels lower than me to get items for my craft.


FFXI addressed both of these pretty well I thought. Lots of high end gear can be crafted (Haubergeon, Scorpion Harness, etc.) And lots of the best gear in the game requires high level crafting to obtain. (Cursed Gear, for example. The logic in having abjurations drop off of NMs with a 72 hour pop time is another matter entirely though...)

Maybe people don't do this anymore, but back in the day I remember mages (the good ones anyway) in lower level parties (pre-Refresh) bringing crafting materials and synthing their own juices to help reduce downtime. Likewise lots of Rangers synthed their own arrows/bolts/bullets, and Ninjas synthed their Ninja tools. I played Ninja and levelled woodworking myself. I saved (and made) a lot of gil making my own shihei.
#11 Jun 26 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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The only good thing about crafting in FFXI was that if you knew what you were doing, and started early enough, you could make obscene amounts of money.

Personally I think crafting should be all about cosmetics. As a crafter, you actually design equipment, and then apply raw materials to your design template. You essentially acquire a real skill in graphic design, and the customization possibilities are endless. Crafters who get really good at designing gear can of course sell their designs for a lot of money. I've seen people spend obscene amounts of in game money for simple designs in other games.

Of course, there are potentially a lot of problems with this. You'd probably have to upload your designs to the server and have them approved, which in itself could conceivably be too much data for the game to handle. I don't know enough about the technical limitations to say for sure.

More realistically, I'd settle for crafting to be a minigame of sorts. I think in XI, it would have been better if they had only allowed you one subcraft to 60. You wouldn't have needed to skill up so many subs, and there would have been more market to go around. Rather than having like 8 crafts that everyone could be equally good at, you'd have 8 crafts each with 8 different subs. Then at least when people start to cap their crafts, rather than all Blacksmiths having access to the same recipes, you have recipes that it's best to be a Blacksmith/Goldsmith for, and so forth. There'd be a lot less competition in whatever craft you specialized in, and for less work.

I say that, but in general I didn't like that you were forced to level only one craft, anymore than I would have liked being forced to level only one job. I just thought crafting was poorly designed in general. And I leveled two crafts to the high 90's, had all my subs to 60, got all the gear and furniture for two crafts, and signed a lot of HQd sh*t. I crafted a lot and I enjoyed learning about the game economy and manipulating it to make myself wealthy.

That said, it wasn't very fun.

Quote:
depending on if you face the right direction, crafted on the right day, sacrificed the right tarutaru, etc.


It might have been better if there had been something like this, but many extensive studies and statistical calculations have thus far shown that nothing affects the result of your synth other than your skill level. Some kind of actual strategy or skill being involved would definitely be an improvement, especially if doing well yielded a better product.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 10:12am by Kachi
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#12 Jun 26 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:


Quote:
depending on if you face the right direction, crafted on the right day, sacrificed the right tarutaru, etc.


It might have been better if there had been something like this, but many extensive studies and statistical calculations have thus far shown that nothing affects the result of your synth other than your skill level. Some kind of actual strategy or skill being involved would definitely be an improvement, especially if doing well yielded a better product.


Oh, I didn't know that. The day/time/direction/moon phase theories were still rampant at the time I left FFXI (about 3 years ago) I guess now that I think about it, you'd still have the possibility of lucky streaks even if the probability is constant. I think it would be interesting though if there were some external factors that influenced the outcome. To prevent people from completely figuring out it and cornering the HQ market, they'd have to change it up randomly though.
#13 Jun 26 2009 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
but what about +1 items. Do you guys think they should stay? Or is the luxury priced items like this bring down the normal priced items too much?

I loved this system. The randomness added a bit of the thrill and addiction of gambling to every synth. It also had the benefit of subsidizing the cost of NQ items for the average Joe.

The NM system followed a similar philosophy, and I thought it was great too. You had the usual "NQ" monster spawns with the odd random "HQ." People complained, but nothing can replace that adrenaline rush.

For the original topic, I like almost all of the ideas here. Custom gear and bonuses to item drops are definitely along the lines of stuff that would improve crafting. A bit more interactive system than the menu-based one in FFXI might be nice, but I do want to keep a random element.

Maybe they could add Rare/Ex items that crafters can make for themselves? Nothing so good that people would feel obligated to level a craft to be adequate at their job, but maybe some alternatives to standard gear at various lower levels. Stuff with either slightly better stats, a cooler appearance, or a lower cost.
#14 Jun 26 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a few ideas I want to mention for crafting. I would like to see items that you could use fairly quickly if you started leveling the craft from the beginning, an assortment of gear be available to you as you progress. By that I mean, entire set of gear, instead of bits and pieces at varying skill levels.

Most importantly though, it would be kind of cool that the success be determined by a mini-game that appeared when you were banging out an item on an anvil. Or sitting down weaving some cloth or whatever in the respectable guilds. One example comes to mind is a spinning item with different colors and you have to match up the colors quickly to increase your success in that item and also the rate of getting a higher quality creation.

On to the HQ items though, the +1 never seemed to be that much better than the NQ stuff, usually only slightly. Could just be the items in FFXI hardly had any stats on them to begin with but anyway. If it is higher quality, they should just remove +1 and change the name slightly to represent that it is higher quality. Maybe make it look physically different if just a shade different.

Crafter specific gear could be a mixture of items you create that you would use in normal situations that cannot be sold to others, and also a unique set, kind of like how the apron and what not was, but for the entire gear set with varying stats that would help your skills in crafting. And maybe put some other stats too so they aren't useless in other situations..

#15 Jun 26 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
On to the HQ items though, the +1 never seemed to be that much better than the NQ stuff, usually only slightly. Could just be the items in FFXI hardly had any stats on them to begin with but anyway. If it is higher quality, they should just remove +1 and change the name slightly to represent that it is higher quality. Maybe make it look physically different if just a shade different.


Have to admit though, lots of "crafters" loved seeing "+1" pop up when they were attempting to craft something. I agree with taking that system out though and just making HQ items have a different name. I'd like to see if have a different look, also. I mean..it is High Quality, right? Prove it.
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#16 Jun 27 2009 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Getting people together with crafts adds up to the craft you need ^^

so that if you need a smithing sub you can work together with a smither to craft.

If you are way to low, team up with other crafters of your craft to craft it with diminishing returns:

3 people with goldsmithing leveled. One with 60, one with 30, one with 40.

60 = 60

40 * .5 = 20

30 * . 25 = 7.5

87.5

result = able to craft a level 87 craft.
everyone can get a skill up.
Maybe not that powerful but something along those lines. I'd really like to see people be able to get together to craft high items though. This would encourage everyone to level a craft.



Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:17am by Eanna
#17 Jun 27 2009 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally I didn't like that it was gambling. I mean, it was semi-fun to run risk:cost analysis on different synths? But it was all so mathematical. If you were decent at math and not ridiculously unlucky, there was nothing especially unpredictable about crafting.

I thought I mentioned this here but it must have hit me while I was in another thread? I think the least they can do is make crafting a minigame, and the better you do at the game, the better the result.
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#18 Jun 27 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I love that idea Eanna, basically getting support from others who are more skilled in a particular craft. If it was mini-game-esque then you could take turns with others and depending on what is being made, if their skill was much greater the mini-game however difficult is slightly easier for them, or they could make it easier for you to do it to insure a better creation.


I'm for one about have a higher quality creation look different as well. (also I'm not refering to synth, because I'm not sure if they are going to use the same crafting system and call it synthesis.
#19 Jun 27 2009 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Lol I felt the same way with my thief. This was when harnesses was at RMT peak also, which was kind of annoying.

but what about +1 items. Do you guys think they should stay? Or is the luxury priced items like this bring down the normal priced items too much?


+1 is pretty much the only way to make any cash while crafting at high level... It just hurts sooo much failing a synth. I remember failing 6 baron corozza(sp?). Lost like 3mil on each failed attempt. I love FFXI craft mostly for the +1... its a huge accomplishment by luck.
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#20 Jun 27 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't really like Eanna's idea. FFXI was teamwork based enough, I don't really want to rely on it for crafting too.
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#21 Jun 27 2009 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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FFXI was teamwork based, yes. FFXIV probably will be more solo oriented, but having many things that has an option of teamwork to me sounds ff trademark. You don't have to team up to help each other out making items. You can do just fine on your own. They could make it so that it helps but doesn't "power" you through crafting levels. Just something fun to do to help out a little bit so you don't fail miserably especially if you are new to crafting. Like Eanna said.. helps encourage others to craft. I personally didn't craft that much in FFXI, this idea and others could help sway my decision in the next game.
#22 Jun 27 2009 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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I'd like to see having crafts leveled make drops off mobs increase. Sort of like how TH works.

Pretend crafting is just like in ffxi and there are 10 tiers. (There's probably not going to be, but there mostly likely will be some similar system in place.) Now, just like how the highest TH works, the highest crafter per craft works. So if you have an initiate and an artisan bonecrafter both attack a mob the artisans boost takes effect.

The effect in question would be this: Bonecrafters cause bones/etc to drop more often. Leathercrafters increase the chance for skins/etc to drop more often. Alchemy increases the chance for monsters to drop potions. (Good old final fantasy!) And so on. Smiley: grin Maybe a 1% boost per tier or something.

edit:
Quote:
if you work with leather you should be able to salvage an animal hide more frequently, etc.
I really need to stop coming up with original ideas that have already been posted somewhere. <.<;

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:11am by Deadgye
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#23 Jun 27 2009 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Having a skill in particular to how well you are at mining lets say would be beneficial to me. The skill would basically let you mine certain nodes, and a greater chance to not break your pick. Which of course.. should be alot more durable and have a way of fixing your pick. Same for woodaxes and other gathering tools.
#24 Jun 28 2009 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Mabinogi has minigames for crafting. It gets old, particularly when you're trying to improve you crafting skill. So please, no.

Mabinogi also has a seperate skill that boosts your success rate for all crafting and resource gathering that goes up to +10% currently. If you craft while in a party, you get to use each of the bonuses your partymates get from this skill, which is extremely helpful if you can find a party. Something like that may work.

I'd like it if a)items of a given crafting level were useful to a character at that level (so I think Eanna's idea is good for improving the success rate of crafting, rather than the level of items one could produce), and b)there's no limit on how much crafting expertise I can accumulate. I don't think it makes any sense to have a character master 20 different professions, but can only max out one crafting field.
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