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#1 Jun 26 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I would love to have this game ported to the MAC.

I remember back at GDC they were saying that with Crystal Tools they have the ability to quickly move to different platforms and even said a Mac and Linux version were possible. I don't see them doing this for day one, but it should be something they work to bring about. I know a lot of Mac users who would love to play without booting windows on their computers.
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#2 Jun 26 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Default
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With all due respect, and I'm not bashing macs here, wouldn't a mac actually capable of playing a game on par with PS3 be one of the ridiculously expensive high end ones that Pixar use for their movies?
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#3 Jun 26 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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I say this as a mac owner: mac just isn't for mainstream gaming. Most people know this going in when they buy a mac, and I was no exception. I absolutely love my mac though, makes an amazing school laptop. (except for that one windows only 3D molecular model program that I really wanted to play with >.>)
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#4 Jun 26 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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It's more likely you're going to have to play it on a Windows partition via Bootcamp (or one of the other programs).

That's how I play Warhammer, sucks having to buy windows (buy an OEM copy to save) but until Game Developers develop for something other than DirectX I think we'll be stuck with windows.

Sidenote, does the PS3 use OpenGL? If so it might be a simple port.

EDIT - The PS3 does use OpenGL 2.0ES apparently.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 4:57pm by baelnic
#5 Jun 26 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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And I'll say this as a mac owner, yes mac's aren't the best for a gaming system, but they are certainly adequate. The current generation of mac's off decent 3d options, not top of the line but more than enough to play a game, just not at the highest settings.
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#6 Jun 26 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't forget the "Big fish in a little pond" effect on Mac software: equivalent apps on Mac and Windows usually do better percentage wise on the Mac due to the lack of competition.

As to the Mac being a poor gaming platform, I think that's a bit of an old wives tale; when booted into windows the Mac is only hampered by a generation-old video card (ie, I'm using an 8800GS on mine, which is fine for most games I've thrown at it).

I know that a lot of Mac people I know play WoW specifically because it has a Mac client... </shrug>
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#7 Jun 26 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Painted wrote:
As to the Mac being a poor gaming platform, I think that's a bit of an old wives tale;

I think it has more to do with games being built primarily with the intention of running with Windows compatible software.
#8 Jun 26 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Eh, GPU would likely prove to be something of an issue. The PS3 uses old tech (basically a GeForce 7800GT), but many Macs have something even lower.

Then again, so do most pre-built PCs. The difference there being that the only model Apple makes that can readily be upgraded is the Mac Pro.

Drivers on the Mac side tend to be kinda sucky too. It's been a complaint with workstation level cards at least.

Given the rather niche market for it, IMO, it makes more sense to just assume people who really want to play it and own a Mac can use Boot Camp.

That being said, the general lack of games on the Mac definitely does help the few titles that do make it to the platform. So SE may want to take advantage of Crystal Tools to put some titles on there eventually, if it really isn't that big a deal to do so.
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#9 Jun 26 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Alot of it has to do with the DirectX API, OSX lacks this.

To write for a mac you have to individually tap into each piece of hardware whereas in Windows DirectX does this for you. Coincidently the X in Xbox originated from DirectX and that leads to the easy tie between PC and 360 development.
Apple have yet to develop something similar probably because of lack of interest, and overall have a much smaller team, keep in mind Microsoft has its whole Division for gaming alone and thats completely seperate from the 360 team too.

Although it sounds to me that Crystal tools will be developing its own software just like this, and Mac compatible too and lets not forget Mr Penguin.

I don't own a mac, but yes I have used one, and know they have alot of power, especially in rendering, but most of their processors are quite weak and fall short in motion+rendering combined.


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#10 Jun 26 2009 at 1:18 PM Rating: Default
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Personally I would much rather see a Linux compatible client. One that didn't have to rigged up through an ungodly awful windows emulator. *stares at wine in disgust*
#11 Jun 26 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
To write for a mac you have to individually tap into each piece of hardware whereas in Windows DirectX does this for you
....
Apple have yet to develop something similar probably because of lack of interest, and overall have a much smaller team, keep in mind Microsoft has its whole Division for gaming alone and thats completely seperate from the 360 team too.


Um, what do you think OpenGL is? If you want to say OpenGL is a giant piece of trash compared to DirectX that's fine but you can't claim that Apple doesn't have a 2d/3d API like Microsoft does.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 3:55pm by baelnic
#12 Jun 26 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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ditx wrote:
With all due respect, and I'm not bashing macs here, wouldn't a mac actually capable of playing a game on par with PS3 be one of the ridiculously expensive high end ones that Pixar use for their movies?



Pixar doesn't use macs, ironically for Steve Jobs. They mostly use XP and linux for Renderman.


As for supporting the game on Macs, no, it's not going to happen. It's stupid to think that it would be economically feasible to bother porting the game from DirectX to OpenGL for a Mac, there just isn't large enough of an audience.

Stop being lazy and install bootcamp.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 3:08pm by Kirbster
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#13 Jun 26 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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baelnic wrote:
Quote:
To write for a mac you have to individually tap into each piece of hardware whereas in Windows DirectX does this for you
....
Apple have yet to develop something similar probably because of lack of interest, and overall have a much smaller team, keep in mind Microsoft has its whole Division for gaming alone and thats completely seperate from the 360 team too.


Um, what do you think OpenGL is? If you want to say OpenGL is a giant piece of trash compared to DirectX that's fine but you can't claim that Apple doesn't have a 2d/3d API like Microsoft does.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 3:55pm by baelnic


Apple did not develop OpenGL, see bolded.
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#14 Jun 26 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Renderman is more of a plug-in for 3-d rendering applications like Maya.
#15 Jun 26 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't really matter who developed it, you said OSX doesn't have a 2d/3d API for developers. It does, it's called OpenGL and does the same thing that DirectX does for Windows programmers.

Just clarifying a point.
#16 Jun 26 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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baelnic wrote:
Renderman is more of a plug-in for 3-d rendering applications like Maya.



I... know?

And it's generally better run in linux. They don't use very many macs in Pixar, save for generic workstations.
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#17 Jun 26 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I... know?

And it's generally better run in linux. They don't use very many macs in Pixar, save for generic workstations.


Haha, sorry for being such a curmudgeon but I'm just clarifying. You suggested they had Un*x boxes to run Renderman and I'm merely clarifying that they have Un*x boxes to run Maya (which has all kinds of plug-ins that Pixar uses including Renderman which they developed).

I wasn't aware that they were running Linux now. I knew they ran a custom built BSD flavor Unix when they were founded (and ran on NeXT hardware). I'd always assume that they'd still be using their own flavor of Unix.

#18 Jun 26 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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As someone who owns a mac, I'm pretty sure my mac has the ability to play a game like this one. It plays wow without any real effort. However, I don't just own a mac so either way it wont bother me. Hopefully they will have a pc, ps3, and 360 ports and i'll get 3 copies of the game :p
#19 Jun 27 2009 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirbster wrote:


As for supporting the game on Macs, no, it's not going to happen. It's stupid to think that it would be economically feasible to bother porting the game from DirectX to OpenGL for a Mac, there just isn't large enough of an audience.

Stop being lazy and install bootcamp.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 3:08pm by Kirbster



I hear your point, and it's not invalid; however developer experiences tend to be the opposite:
This Developer discovered that porting his game to the Mac platform, which he estimates at 5% of the installed base, resulted in a 122% increase in sales.


From the article:
Quote:
From a short sighted, graph reading viewpoint, supporting Mac OS X and Linux directly increased sales by around 122%. However, this seemingly unbelievable number is actually understated. Here’s my attempt at an explanation...


This isn't the first developer I've heard of who says much the same thing. It's a pity we don't know what the breakdown of Windows/Mac/Linux clients is for WoW, since it would be the most relevant to XIV.

As for Bootcamp, yes, that will work, it's how I play FFXI and Left4Dead; but I think you're underestimating how jarring it is to a Mac user to actually do this (ye gods does Windows take forever to boot compared to Mac OS X, I'm talking 3-4x as long). It means I can't access my e-mail, perform reasonably carefree surfing (I can surf to atlas if I want to on the Mac). Plus there is a real backlash in the mac community to the attitude "eh, just reboot to Bootcamp, ya lazy sods"- don't forget that there's the $100ish hit for an OEM copy of windows that gets added onto the first game you're forced to run this way. It's kind of like the HDD on the PS2 version of FFXI, in an odd way.

On a vaguely related note, as a long time Mac guy who's had a foot in both worlds since both platforms were created, I'm absolutely astonished at the uptake of new Macs since they switched to Intel- the promise of Bootcamp coupled with the disappointment of Vista has an incredible effect. In the last year, among friends, coworkers and other acquaintances, I would say a conservative estimate would be 60% of people considering new computers are getting or seriously considering switching. Square could risk a client for OS X and I would expect that it could pay off handsomely in the next few years.
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#20 Jun 27 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Apple had their chance and even that was by practically blackmailing Gates, but Jobs was too petty to take it up.
He's not a nice person and doesn't particularly make me want to buy an apple product. This is just my personal reasonning anyway.

For everyone else however, all they seem to care about is making a product look good lately, case and point: Macbook Air; why would anyone need a mm or wahtever thick notebook at reduced funcionality OR the iPhone 3Gs, it offers absolutely nothing new other then being slightly faster and a few other dated gimmicks. I can't think of one good reason as to why I would wanna switch from a programme filled, easy to code for, trusted Windows 7, to OSX. This just opens that door wide open for "OMG MACS DON'T GET VIRUSES THOUGH LOL". Neither does my PC, with UAC enabled embeded codes cant download without me knowing regardless of noscript or 100 other things, and I'm simply not stupid enough to download some 2kb Song.MP3.exe off some website and when/if mac gains widespread popularity, viruses will become part of every day mac users life too.

I'm not gonna go off on one preaching to windows because it's not the best model for a company, but until Apple stop trying to be this modern, futuristic power house, and Jobs stops acting like an arrogant idiot, maybe just maybe they'll get a foothold

/rantoff.
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#21 Jun 27 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I wonder why FFXI was on ps2 360 and windows but not mac? But for that matter, what about any other mainstream game that causes me to have a windows running computer to play. I think i'm going to get a new windows computer for the sole purpose of playing games and that alone. (I already have one, but my mac would be better suited to playing the games than it.)

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 2:06pm by zeroskillkyrios
#22 Jun 27 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Apple had their chance and even that was by practically blackmailing Gates, but Jobs was too petty to take it up.
He's not a nice person and doesn't particularly make me want to buy an apple product. This is just my personal reasonning anyway.

For everyone else however, all they seem to care about is making a product look good lately, case and point: Macbook Air; why would anyone need a mm or wahtever thick notebook at reduced funcionality OR the iPhone 3Gs, it offers absolutely nothing new other then being slightly faster and a few other dated gimmicks. I can't think of one good reason as to why I would wanna switch from a programme filled, easy to code for, trusted Windows 7, to OSX. This just opens that door wide open for "OMG MACS DON'T GET VIRUSES THOUGH LOL". Neither does my PC, with UAC enabled embeded codes cant download without me knowing regardless of noscript or 100 other things, and I'm simply not stupid enough to download some 2kb Song.MP3.exe off some website and when/if mac gains widespread popularity, viruses will become part of every day mac users life too.

I'm not gonna go off on one preaching to windows because it's not the best model for a company, but until Apple stop trying to be this modern, futuristic power house, and Jobs stops acting like an arrogant idiot, maybe just maybe they'll get a foothold

/rantoff.


I agree, for the most part jobs is an idiot. I can't stand him and the iphone. But as a personal preference I like macs in general. They could be better, one of problems stems from very little being compatible such as games I want to play >.>;
#23 Jun 27 2009 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
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Pssst. Get Windows. Windows 7 is way better than the stuck-in-the-90's thing Mac has going on still. Even most Apple computers are coming out with Windows installed on them.
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#24 Jun 27 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
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Use Parallel's Desktop. It's probably the single most refined emulator ever created. Take advantage of it.

Painted wrote:
As to the Mac being a poor gaming platform, I think that's a bit of an old wives tale.

Not an old wives tale. Just an out of date story.

The MacOS is just as capable of running games as any other OS nowadays. It's an OS, just like any version of Linux. It's just a matter of who develops games for them. You can't run XBox360 games on a PS3, and you can't run PS3 games on an XBox360, and for the most part, neither system has a significant difference in play quality. Same for Mac, Windows, and Linux.

This is why there are solutions that have been created (<3 Parallels), which are absolutely amazing at emulating the necessary environment to run Windows based games on the MacOS.

EDIT: It amazes me how many people in this thread don't understand the difference between a pre-built computer and an Operating System.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 1:59am by Karelyn
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#25 Jun 28 2009 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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As far as I was aware, parallels runs FFXI at about 5fps with a mid end macbook?
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#26 Jun 28 2009 at 1:29 AM Rating: Good
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Painted wrote:
Kirbster wrote:


As for supporting the game on Macs, no, it's not going to happen. It's stupid to think that it would be economically feasible to bother porting the game from DirectX to OpenGL for a Mac, there just isn't large enough of an audience.

Stop being lazy and install bootcamp.

Edited, Jun 26th 2009 3:08pm by Kirbster



I hear your point, and it's not invalid; however developer experiences tend to be the opposite:
This Developer discovered that porting his game to the Mac platform, which he estimates at 5% of the installed base, resulted in a 122% increase in sales.


From the article:
Quote:
From a short sighted, graph reading viewpoint, supporting Mac OS X and Linux directly increased sales by around 122%. However, this seemingly unbelievable number is actually understated. Here’s my attempt at an explanation...


This isn't the first developer I've heard of who says much the same thing. It's a pity we don't know what the breakdown of Windows/Mac/Linux clients is for WoW, since it would be the most relevant to XIV.

As for Bootcamp, yes, that will work, it's how I play FFXI and Left4Dead; but I think you're underestimating how jarring it is to a Mac user to actually do this (ye gods does Windows take forever to boot compared to Mac OS X, I'm talking 3-4x as long). It means I can't access my e-mail, perform reasonably carefree surfing (I can surf to atlas if I want to on the Mac). Plus there is a real backlash in the mac community to the attitude "eh, just reboot to Bootcamp, ya lazy sods"- don't forget that there's the $100ish hit for an OEM copy of windows that gets added onto the first game you're forced to run this way. It's kind of like the HDD on the PS2 version of FFXI, in an odd way.

On a vaguely related note, as a long time Mac guy who's had a foot in both worlds since both platforms were created, I'm absolutely astonished at the uptake of new Macs since they switched to Intel- the promise of Bootcamp coupled with the disappointment of Vista has an incredible effect. In the last year, among friends, coworkers and other acquaintances, I would say a conservative estimate would be 60% of people considering new computers are getting or seriously considering switching. Square could risk a client for OS X and I would expect that it could pay off handsomely in the next few years.


I use Macs on occasion as well! Granted, I'm honestly not a huge fan of the OS or Apple products in general, but I use it as my video media workstation, although this may change as 64-bit Windows 7 comes into production.

But anyway, it's not terribly jarring. Your first mistake is (possibly) trying to boot camp with Vista. Use XP or W7, boot times should take no longer than 8-10 seconds. Surf carefree online with Firefox installed with Noscript and adblocker. And well, nobody says you have to buy Windows, just as I didn't have to buy OSX to dualboot on my PC :P

As to the profits, you have to admit that the costs for porting an indy game and the costs for completely recoding and maintaining a global and already cross-platform MMO are completely different animals.
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#27 Jun 28 2009 at 5:08 AM Rating: Good
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ditx wrote:
As far as I was aware, parallels runs FFXI at about 5fps with a mid end macbook?

I would question if parallels was configured properly. I suffer no noticeable slowdown while using parallels, however I do not use mid end computers.

But it's generally not a great idea to run MMOs on any laptop. On that note, why the **** is anyone still buying pre-built computers? I mean, I understand a laptop, but why the unholy **** would you buy a pre-built desktop computer?

"Hello there, I'm a pre-built PC"
"And I'm a pre-built Mac"
Together: "And we're both marked up 30-40% because of an assembly that takes about 20 minutes to do"

EDIT: Eh, I guess if you have a low end computer, parallels isn't an option for you. But coherence mode is the coolest thing I have ever seen implemented on a computer; It basically hides the Windows OS, allows you to access the entire Windows menu system through MacOS, and makes the Windows programs run side by side on the MacOS desktop as if they were MacOS programs. That combined with a nice skin I installed in the XP emulation to give the Windows programs a nice OSXish appearance, and you don't even notice the WindowsOS is there.


Edited, Jun 28th 2009 9:54am by Karelyn
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#28 Jun 28 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirbster wrote:
I use Macs on occasion as well! Granted, I'm honestly not a huge fan of the OS or Apple products in general, but I use it as my video media workstation, although this may change as 64-bit Windows 7 comes into production.

But anyway, it's not terribly jarring. Your first mistake is (possibly) trying to boot camp with Vista. Use XP or W7, boot times should take no longer than 8-10 seconds. Surf carefree online with Firefox installed with Noscript and adblocker. And well, nobody says you have to buy Windows, just as I didn't have to buy OSX to dualboot on my PC :P

As to the profits, you have to admit that the costs for porting an indy game and the costs for completely recoding and maintaining a global and already cross-platform MMO are completely different animals.


I am running XP, fully patched and FireFox, etc. Still takes 2-3x minimum over what OS X takes to boot. I am referring to useable desktop, not the "I'm ready, oh, wait, must load systray" moment that Windows does. This is on an original Mac Pro, so not a slouch of a machine. I do have hope that Win7 will be better, it certainly sounds like they have working on the right areas for a change.

Unfortunately, this thread has been invaded by the "OMG Macs are teh SUXXORS" crowd- I mean really, considering that OS X is the major inspiration for much of the UI on Vista and Win7 (not the only inspiration, not trying to fan the flames). I think comments like mortalabattoir's and ditx's are certainly not adding to the conversation. The following is for them:

HEY WINDOWS FANBOYS:
We know you like windows. We know you feel superior for using them. We know you have a need to hate anything different. That's fine. Enjoy your uninformed hate. But try to understand that other people might just prefer a different platform, and we just might want to still play FFXIV. We might object to paying for an extra OS and the hassles of setting it up. But do you really have to come in and bring the whole conversation down to the most juvenile level just because someone chose a different platform than you?

That said:
-There are no* technical reasons FFXIV couldn't be ported to the Mac.
-There may be business case reasons that FFXIV won't* be ported to the Mac.
-It is possible that Squeenix does not know accurately how well FFXIV would penetrate the Mac market.

It is the last reason this thread exists, for Mac owners to express their desire for a Mac client. Please don't turn it into a flame war.
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#29 Jun 28 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Default
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a bit of a non sequitur, but I read recently that Apple is considering going back to proprietary processors.
#30 Jun 28 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I had only heard that Apple had considered creating their own chipsets (purchasing the license from Intel) while continuing to use Intel microprocessors.

It would be foolish of them to move back to proprietary CPUs at this point.
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#31 Jun 28 2009 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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samosamo wrote:
a bit of a non sequitur, but I read recently that Apple is considering going back to proprietary processors.


Excuse me? The 6502 (older Apples), 65816 (Apple IIgs and on), 68000-series (Macs), and PowerPC (Power Macs and older iMacs) chips are not proprietary.
#32 Jun 29 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know a lot about CPU tech, but I can tell you (from a consumer perspective) that when I switch from windows XP to MAC OS, I couldn't be more satisfied. My Mac still works beautifully after 2 years since I purchased it and based on my experience I don't plan to go back to windows operative systems any time around. Once you go MAC you never go back! lol...
#33 Jun 29 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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BastokFL wrote:
samosamo wrote:
a bit of a non sequitur, but I read recently that Apple is considering going back to proprietary processors.


Excuse me? The 6502 (older Apples), 65816 (Apple IIgs and on), 68000-series (Macs), and PowerPC (Power Macs and older iMacs) chips are not proprietary.


yeah that was worded badly, I meant back to PowerPC chips, so no bootcamp etc...

also, take a breath and relax, geesh
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