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The Class Menagerie Follow

#1 Jun 26 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know that this topic is probably a little touchy, seeing as there's no confirmation as of yet that there will even be specific jobs, but I'd like to hope that in some form SE will include jobs, and hopefully a large variety of them! Personally I'd like to see SE take FF back to its roots while also infusing some FFT jobs and maintaining most of the jobs from FFXI.

Here's what I would ideally like the available jobs to be, along with a short blurb on what each would do. My assumptions are that there's still a job system, there are still parties that encourage specific roles like tank and healer, and that in this new system all jobs will be balanced against other jobs in their "slot" to be equally effective overall because of their situational uses.



This topic needs a purpose, now doesn't it? Hopefully my list gives you all some ideas of your own. I don't know how you all feel, but what sort of job system are you hoping for? Dyou want just 6-10 main classes that allow branching skills? Are you in the mood for a fluid class system based off FFTA's weapon-based skill-learning system? Why exactly do you want that?

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Bard – Buff party in many ways with powerful songs, debuff enemies
Beastmaster – Tame monsters, learn new pet abilities, & fight alongside them w/ axes
Black Mage – Nukes enemy w/ powerful black & elemental magic
Blue Mage – Learn spells & abilities of enemies + sword melee w/ physical magic
Cannoneer – Deal heavy damage & boost stats @ long range, rest between shots
Chemist – Use items to heal party, return MP to party, & buff party by constantly mixing items
Dancer – Support party using TP for beneficial dances that heal, debuff monster, etc
Dark Knight – Deal huge melee damage with scythes at cost of health, use dark magic & absorb stats
Dragoon – Fight alongside Wyvern using polearms, Jump for spike damage & hate shedding
Gadgeteer – Support party w/ clockwork abilities to mitigate party damage, tools to debuff & damage enemies, throwing weapons to satisfy need for constant TP to use abilities
Geomancer – Control the elements to direct party hate & buff skillchain strength, wield poles
Gunner – Use Guns to DD while buffing party combat & improving debuff effects
Monk – Powerful melee DD using Hand-to-hand, counters, damage over time
Mystic Knight – Tank using MP to absorb damage, high magic defense, great swords
Ninja – Uses ninjutsu & throw to ranged DD along with dual-wielded katanas, utsusemi
Oracle – Use ancient magic to deal heavy spike damage, specialist @ magic bursts
Paladin – Tank through curing self, huge defense, & shields
Ranger – Uses bows & crossbows, lay traps & increase accuracy
Red Mage – Front line mage, master of enfeebling
Samurai – Melee DD with highest TP gain through store TP
Scholar – See & control enemy weaknesses, healing & nuking abilities using effects over time
Summoner – Summon different spirits to fight for you, powerful DD, costs MP over time
Thief – Spike DD who can steal enemy statuses & items, uses sneak attacks
Time Mage – Powerful debuffs on mobs & buff party at cost of versatility, uses time magic
Viking – Massive damage with primitive ways to mitigate damage taken, hard to kill, great axes
Warrior – Uses swords & physical abilities to DD, has many useful traits & self buffs
White Mage – Uses curing magic to heal party & remove status effects

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[ I have detailed ideas on the jobs, actually, if anyone wants to know what I mean. ]

Thanks for the read!

-FoXy

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 1:02am by FreeLanceFoXx
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║   Of   ║             ║ 50 Corsair ║ 
║Bismarck╟─────────────╢ 30 Ranger  ║ 
╚═════╤══╝   o(^_^)b   ║ 31 Warrior ║ 
      │    Member of   ║ 15 Thief   ║ 
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#2 Jun 26 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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Remember that in most cases, the fewer the classes, the easier they are to balance, and to make them more versatile and desirable. I would probably combine some of those more similar jobs into each other.


For example:

Viking and Warrior into Warrior.

Oracle and Black Mage into Black Mage.

White Mage and Time Mage into White Mage.

Gadgeteer and Chemist into I don't know which but jesus christ that sounds awesome.



Edited, Jun 26th 2009 9:13pm by Kirbster
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#3 Jun 26 2009 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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I like the list. Could you perhaps list their roles, i.e support, tank, DD. I could probably guess but best to be certain.
#4 Jun 26 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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The Class Menagerie

I see what you did there.....

Also, good list.
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#5 Jun 26 2009 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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I already had such a list pretty much typed up. >_0 Here's what I had in mind.

Bard – Buffing Support
Beastmaster – Pet DoT
Black Mage – Nukes
Blue Mage – Physical Magic
Cannoneer – Heavy Ranged Nuking
Chemist – Item Support Healing
Dancer – Melee Healing
Dark Knight – Heavy DD
Dragoon – Pet & DD
Gadgeteer – Damage Mitigation Support
Geomancer – WS & Hate Support
Gunner – Debuff Boost & DD
Monk – Melee DoT (Tank Capable)
Mystic Knight – Magic Defense Tank
Ninja – Ranged Spike DD
Oracle – Magic Spike DD
Paladin – High Defense Tank
Ranger – Ranged DD
Red Mage – Debuff Mage & Melee
Samurai – WS DD
Scholar – Support Mage (Main Heal Capable)
Summoner – Magic Pet DD
Thief – Spike DD
Time Mage – Support Mage
Viking – Heavy DD (Tank Capable)
Warrior – DD
White Mage – Healing

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Also, on the subject of jobs being similar, the idea here is to allow for people assembling parties to consider the party as a puzzle... you can do the same thing many ways. For instance, you can have a WHM main healing, but you could easily replace a WHM if you found either a CHM, or could get really tricky and combine a SCH's powerful Regen with the TIM to allow faster healing. The Oracle, for example, doesn't replace a Black Mage but can fill in the same job. A BLM basically has the equivalent of the Fire II, Aero IV, etc line of spells and the ability to spam them as needed. The Oracle uses spells equivalent to Flood or Flare that have much longer cast times & costs which deal the same damage over the same amount of time as a BLM would, but also has abilities that make Magic Bursting incredibly effective (of course, the timing is difficult with AM).


Edited, Jun 27th 2009 12:52am by FreeLanceFoXx
____________________________
 
╔════════╗ 
║Falanouc║             ╓────────────╖ 
║   Of   ║             ║ 50 Corsair ║ 
║Bismarck╟─────────────╢ 30 Ranger  ║ 
╚═════╤══╝   o(^_^)b   ║ 31 Warrior ║ 
      │    Member of   ║ 15 Thief   ║ 
      │ FracturedHopes ╙┬───────────╜ 
      └─────────────────┘ 
#6 Jun 26 2009 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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Looks good. How exactly did you come by this list, btw? Did you just pick jobs you liked or did you have something in mind while choosing them?
#7 Jun 26 2009 at 9:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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I did a TON of research, actually. I didn't have any scientific method to it, but I basically went through every FF game and picked out the character archetypes that had the most information provided. Unique abilities, characteristics, weapon types, anything to make a job unique, and basically took each "archetype" and applied then to FFXI mechanics.

For instance, the Gadgeteer loosely combines the Engineer, Tinker, and Machinist jobs and filled in the FFXI mechanics of a support job that: A) uses TP, B) allows damage mitigation for the whole party, C) mainly uses throwing weapons. The Oracle, one of my favorite classes, plays off of the Mystic, Oracle, and Calculator archetypes. Some of its abilities are Accumulate, which is like Boost for spells, Zenith, which increases spell strength when the party is healthier, Nadir, which increases spell power when the party has lower HP, and Reincarnate, which is a trait to give reraise.

Basically I'm a super nerd and I live on the Final Fantasy Wiki. :3

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 1:20am by FreeLanceFoXx
____________________________
 
╔════════╗ 
║Falanouc║             ╓────────────╖ 
║   Of   ║             ║ 50 Corsair ║ 
║Bismarck╟─────────────╢ 30 Ranger  ║ 
╚═════╤══╝   o(^_^)b   ║ 31 Warrior ║ 
      │    Member of   ║ 15 Thief   ║ 
      │ FracturedHopes ╙┬───────────╜ 
      └─────────────────┘ 
#8 Jun 27 2009 at 1:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's not a bad list, but there are jobs missing and I would quibble with you over some of the job roles.

But in general I'm of the opinion that the more the better. Jobs in FF have really not been as much about role as people seem to want to think, but style. I mean, you could have easily gotten rid of 1/3 of the jobs in XI by condensing them into a generic melee DD job, but in doing so you lose all those defining senses of style that attract players to particular jobs.
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#9 Jun 27 2009 at 4:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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But in general I'm of the opinion that the more the better.


Too many classes is just asking for trouble, balance-wise. Besides, if there aren't enough totally unique differences in abilities or playstyle, there really is no reason to NOT condense jobs together to make them more interesting and unique.

I think SE should use something akin to this... (Bear with me, I'm bored and this is fairly entertaining to speculate about.)

Imagine that SE restricted the amount of Skillsets (White Magic, Steal/Mug, Jump, Time Magic) you could have at any given time. If you wanted to get new skillsets and abilities (learning through weapons), you have to sacrifice old ones. Depending on your current palette of skills, the game determines what your current job is. This way, you can, in a way, create your own subjobs and main jobs in an organic and natural way.

It also kind of reminds me a little of FFT, and that's never a bad thing. Also read this list not in the context of FFXI per se, but of a game with some striking similarities.

Naturally, everything is branched off the classic FF classes, starting with:


Bare: Everyone starts off with no specializations or high stats in anything, but you can equip any kind of weapon or armor. (And then presumably shifting into one of the following Basic job types as you progress in skills:)


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-Warrior: Can either be a heavy damage dealer or efficient bloodtank, depending on how it's geared and played. Stance-based, with difference stances focusing on different situations.

(From Warrior-type: Players can begin to dabble in:

-Monk
-Thief
-Dark Knight
-Dragoon
-Paladin
-Blue Mage
-Samurai
-Beastmaster

skills.


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-Thief: Hate Control, Heavy Spike damage. A focus on self-serving abilities, but also some party-centric ones that, perhaps, lower Mob Evasion, thus raising Accuracy for the party.

From Thief, Players can begin to dabble in:

-Warrior
-Monk
-Gunner
-Ninja
-Ranger
-Dancer

skills.


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White Mage: Master of Curative and Protective Magic. Protects, Shells, Regens and AoE healing magic. Divine magic does some moderate damage, but nothing special unless it's against Undead. One of the very few classes that can cure status effects with magic.

From White Mage, Players can begin to dabble in:

-Black Mage
-Red Mage
-Time Mage
-Paladin
-Bard
-Chemist
-Summoner
-Scholar

skills.


----

Black Mage: Master of Elemental Damage spells. All Elemental Magic in all of its tiers, including AOE variations, are available to this fellow. He might also have the ability to cast Nukes on Party Member's weapons for short but very powerful Enspell effects, essentially placing the hate of the nuke on whoever is smacking the mob with a magic weapon. (Imagine the help this would be to a tank!)

From Black Mage, Players can begin to dabble in:

-White Mage
-Red Mage
-Dark Knight
-Blue Mage
-Geomancer
-Summoner
-Scholar

skills.



---


Red Mage: Jack of all trades, master of none. (Except enfeebling spells!) Red Mage has reasonable access to both white and black schools of magic, with moderate damage in both. The Redmage also does fairly good damage damage with rapier-type swords. It has many Red Mage-centric spells (none of which include refresh. Perhaps... dare I say it, doublecast?), and not only that, but it can cast while moving. (At a walking speed)

From Red Mage, Players can begin to dabble in:

-Black Mage
-White Mage
-Warrior
-Blue Mage
-Scholar
-Chemist
-Paladin

skills.


----

Monk: Pure Damage Dealer. He will kick the crap out of you, son. He is equipped with many abilities, most of which focus exclusively on damage and self-healing. He has access to all of the HP-Max traits and abilities and he will not go down without a ******* fight.

From Monk, Players can begin to dabble in:

-Warrior
-Thief
-Samurai
-Ninja
-Beastmaster
-Geomancer
-Paladin

skills.


------

You guys begin to see what I'm talking about. For fun, I'll write down the rest of how I think the roles would play out, but not what they're connected to, branch-wise.

Beastmaster: All in all, not terribly different from what it was in XI. A wonderful soloer, the ability to charm mobs, and with a very wide variety of jugpets, an able team player able to take advantage of the natural weaknesses between mob types. Perhaps even the ability to raise his very own pets!

------


Dark Knight: Massive damage Dealer. You thought the Monk could deal damage? If that guy's a punch to the kidneys, the Dark Knight is a scythe disemboweling you and then punching your kidney as it lies on the ground. Master of DARK magic, Drain Spikes, Drain, Aspir. It doesn't get many spells but they come in handy, because the Dark Knight has the fortitude of a tarutaru summoner. Hey, you can't have it both ways, boyo.


------

Bard: Absolute Pure support and crowd control, with a few tricks up his sleeve to protect himself. The guy's spent his days singing in bars and clubs, man. He might know how to hold a dagger, but that's about it. ATT-UP, Speed-Buffs, MP and HP-Regens at the cost of no MP! He can also sing mobs to sleep, and even charm one for a little while.

------

Blue Mage: Just like in every FF game ever, this fellow takes a beating, and then surprises his opponent with their very own moves. However, in this variation, he's gonna ditch the Magic-damage moves and leave that to wimpy robe-wearers. This guy is going to go face to face with a monster and beat the **** out of it with Physical-type moves while using neat Mob-only buffs, and maybe even self-destructing if he really, really wants to.

------


Chemist: Potions, Poisons and Ethers oh my! This fellow doesn't use MP to use his abilities, but items! Chemists gain traits that allow them to stack Chemist-only items to very high numbers. All potions are easily and cheaply purchased from Chemist Guild merchants located in all the cities. (However, you can get more bang for your buck if you use Alchemist-crafted items.)
What does the Chemist do? He heals, he debuffs the enemy, heck, he can even toss some ethers your way if you're low on MP! What a guy.


------

Dancer: Just like in XI, Dancers use TP as the basis and theme for most of their abilities. Some Buffs, Many Debuffs, and with their daggers, they're a more offensive form of the Bard. They kick *** and they look good while doing it.


------


Dragoon: What needs to be said about this glorious knight in jumping armor? This sucker is skilled with spears and has quite a few tricks up his sleeve, perhaps even some Elemental Breath attacks. He can jump high to evade dangerous attacks, even! He's a very versatile fighter, able to take damage and deal it as well.


------


Geomancer: This guy knows the land pretty well, and he can probably convince it to kick your ***. This guy's a tank. Literally! He focuses on stoneskin-based tanking. The current weather and where he's standing dictates the strength of his very varied spell and ability list.


------


Gunner/Corsair/Gambler:
This guy's willing to take a chance to deal some pretty steady damage and buff the party with luck and gambling-based abilities. Blackjack and slots are his central theme. Better hope Lady Luck is on your side with this fellow. He's like a more offensive Corsair.



-----

Ninja: Who could forget this sneaky son of a *****? Not me. With dual wielding, and a large focus on throwing kunai, stars, or whatever the **** he can get his hands on, the Ninja is a top notch damage dealer that can evade attacks with Ninja-exclusive ninjitsu. Remember that thing called the elemental wheel? Well, it's useful now.

-----

Paladin: Needs no introduction. This guy can tank, do great damage against undead with divine magic, and even do some minor healing and buffing on the side if he needs to! A master of the shield, and to a lower extent, the sword, the Paladin can endure any attack, and even step in front of other players to take their damage for them.

-----

Ranger: The Master of Ranged Attacks. Bows and Arrows, Guns and Bullets are his domain. Not only that, the ranger is a master of laying down traps! Status traps, Damaging traps. Heck, if you're camping with a party, just lay down a damaging trap in the center of the camp and go pull! When the mob gets there, kaboom! Or maybe a gobbie's on your tail, just waiting to beat your poor taru face in with a spiked club? Well, just lay down a sleep trap real fast and make sure the poor ******* runs right into it! Then you can make your escape worry-free.


-----

Samurai: A master of skillchains. This guy builds up TP something fierce, and he can skillchain with ease with anyone in your party! He might be big and bulky, but this guy is quite skilled with parrying blows with his Great Katana and can even tank pretty well!

-----


Scholar: This guy is pretty smart. He figures that if you're going to win a fight, you might as well do it in the smartest way possible. The Scholar does extra damage with magic bursts, and has some pretty powerful DoTs to boot. Not only that, if he plays his cards right, he can even instant cast some spells. Did I mention he has Scan?


-----


Summoner: The physically weakest of all the mages, the Summoner is a paper doll, just waiting to be crumpled. Then again, that might be easier said than done, because a scary lady made of ice is floating between you and that paper doll. Summoners operate almost exclusively through their avatars, each avatar specializing in different elements, and situations.


-----

Time Mage: What, the guy with the funny pope hat? Yes him! This guy's got the power of time and space in the palm of his hand. All the tiers of Slow, Haste, Demi, Regain, and heck, maybe even Meteor. I bet the guy can even reset cooldowns for a heavy MP cost.




Is that all of them? I think so.

So imagine if you could be a Full Warrior. All the Warrior skills and traits. Or maybe you could be maybe MOSTLY Warrior, with some monk tossed in. Maybe a good 50-50. etc etc.

Naturally, there'd need to be some solid restrictions and tweaking to prevent some combinations from being overpowered. But it'd be neat if this is kind of the direction in which the game plays out.


Anyway, this is just some speculation on job roles. Feel free to discuss.


Edited, Jun 27th 2009 5:41am by Kirbster
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#10 Jun 27 2009 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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Too many classes is just asking for trouble, balance-wise. Besides, if there aren't enough totally unique differences in abilities or playstyle, there really is no reason to NOT condense jobs together to make them more interesting and unique.


I think I said this elsewhere, but jobs are less about roles in FFXI and more about style. If they weren't, 1/3 of the jobs in FFXI could easily have been condensed into a generic melee DD job. Jobs exist primarily to let players choose in what way their role will manifest, not as much in filling all the potential roles. Believe it or not, if you really wanted to make a job system where every role was represented at its purest, you could design a game in which 100-1,000 different unique job roles could easily be defined. There were still many unexplored roles in FFXI, a relatively barebones game in terms of game mechanics and functions. In a more intricate game, the possibilities are endless. It merely becomes... wait for it... a matter of running out of unique styles to associate with those roles.

Balance is not by necessity a great concern, and even if you get it all wrong it's relatively easy to fix. SE was poor at dealing with balance issues, yes, particularly in light of having several jobs with similar roles, but for many MMOs a patch to fix a balance issue can come out the day after its discovered. It's usually as simple as adding or changing a stat modifier slightly.

And balance as we know it may not be an issue at all in FFXIV-- it very likely won't. When/if there are no hard and fast levels, and alongside that there is a sort of "level sync" system, balance automatically becomes less important. When jobs are not rigorously defined, as they may not be in FFXIV, it becomes even less important still. Players can't make simple assessments like "Oh, this DD job is almost always better than this DD job, so I'll look for one of them." It becomes so much more a matter of the individual player that the balance of the jobs and roles themselves is overshadowed.

So there may be abundant balance issues, but they should not be very pronounced, and if they ever become too prevalent, they can be fixed with ease.

I really blame SE for making such a shallow game in FFXI that it has crippled the creativity of its players. SE could have added a dozen more unique, defining traits and abilities to each of the existing jobs-- why they didn't I guess will be the mystery. Technical limitations, lack of creativity, or just plain felt they didn't need to... who can say? But players had many good ideas for jobs, which if implemented unilaterally would have tremendously enriched the game. Potentially the problem was SE's lack of foresight in that by the time the need for such changes rose to priority, they had already stagnated vertical growth and did not feel they could afford to so drastically improve player performance relative to existing monster performance.
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#11 Jun 27 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Kirbster I really loved reading your descriptions! >:3 I literally have almost the exact same ideas in mind. I mean literally the exact same for Ranger, Ninja, Summoner, Scholar, Red Mage, Dragoon. Definitely need Scan for SCH, Jump evades attacks for DRG, Ninja NOT a tank, Doublecast for RDM.

Personally I disagree on Geomancer being a tank, but that's mostly because historically there's no precedent for that. Typically the only classes that really were defined as tanks were the heavy melees, and frankly I think that's perfectly alright.

I really like your idea for Time Mage being able to instantly reset recast timers... that's something I hadn't thought of!

For the Chemist, I see him as instead of being tied to buying potions being reliant on his timers. Basically he can mix any number of different items for free, but each has a long mix duration and the more powerful the item the longer (meaning the more likely to be interrupted and the longer you're helpless). Throw instantly uses the item on party members, but if you haven't thought ahead and prepared items ahead of time, you'll have nothing to throw. I see items as being temporary (5 min?). The other mechanic I came up with is ripped from the Calculator job, called Distribute. This trait allows HP healed over the max HP to be distributed equally among other party members, which basically lets the Chemist create -ga effects without an ability but only if he keeps his own health up.


I think we're totally on the same wavelength as far as what (most of) the jobs do, I just would like to see more. Oracle, Mystic Knight, Cannoneer, Gadgeteer, etc.

-FoXy

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 3:20pm by FreeLanceFoXx
____________________________
 
╔════════╗ 
║Falanouc║             ╓────────────╖ 
║   Of   ║             ║ 50 Corsair ║ 
║Bismarck╟─────────────╢ 30 Ranger  ║ 
╚═════╤══╝   o(^_^)b   ║ 31 Warrior ║ 
      │    Member of   ║ 15 Thief   ║ 
      │ FracturedHopes ╙┬───────────╜ 
      └─────────────────┘ 
#12 Jun 27 2009 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I hope it start off with less jobs, making it easier to balance. Then maybe add some jobs slowly, and carefully so they do not upset the balance that would already be in order. The less jobs, the easier a game is to balance, that being said, there should still be a good selection of jobs.
#13 Jun 27 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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419 posts
Hoc a lot of people seem to feel that way... what starting jobs do you want?

Warrior
Thief
White Mage
Black Mage

More?

I think most of the advanced jobs can branch off of these. Monk from WAR, Ranger from THF, etc...
____________________________
 
╔════════╗ 
║Falanouc║             ╓────────────╖ 
║   Of   ║             ║ 50 Corsair ║ 
║Bismarck╟─────────────╢ 30 Ranger  ║ 
╚═════╤══╝   o(^_^)b   ║ 31 Warrior ║ 
      │    Member of   ║ 15 Thief   ║ 
      │ FracturedHopes ╙┬───────────╜ 
      └─────────────────┘ 
#14 Jun 27 2009 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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To be honest i'm not so bothered about the exact jobs and more bothered about them being a little more balanced across the classes

having 1 tank class, 1 lol tank class but a dozen or more DD classes is one of the biggest problems in ffxi and everywhere you look theres a demand for more tanks and has been for a long time.

hopefully this is 1 thing they'll address in 14.
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#15 Jun 27 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Being a chemist in real life... I would love to see the job make its mmo debut in ffxiv. I agree with the mix potion and throw, but there is another detail I would like to see.

If I am correct, chemists use daggers and guns as weapons. Knowing chemistry quite well, I know there are many more compounds that hurt rather than heal. In ffxi, alchemists could make blinding/poison/paralyze potions that were very rarely used. If chemist is made as a job, I would love to see chemists being able to use their damaging compounds on any of their daggers, as well as launch vials of damaging potions from their guns. Nothing says riot control like launching a blinding potion in a group of mobs.

I believe this to be feasible since SE has stated that solo play is able in this game. It would only make sense to give chemist some tools to heal/control/damage. It would be quite a versatile class.
#16 Jun 27 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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No dont start off with 4 jobs, I meant start off with maybe the regular jobs with a few added. Get the balancing in order then slowly implement more jobs. Regular jobs to me is kind of what FFXI started with (rdm, whm, blm, mnk, thf, war), but add more jobs at the start this time, ill say 12 is a good number to start with. Then either make you get the more advanced jobs, as a quest or something (like in ffxi), or simply add new jobs slowly. I wouldn't mind if every job that was in ffxi returned for ffxiv (remodeled versions), but I also wouldn't mind taking some out and adding some new jobs. The only thing is if you keep all the jobs from ffxi, and then add a ton of new jobs, it makes the game harder to balance (not impossible), but harder. 20 jobs is hard enough to balance, (just picked a random number), 30+ would be extremely hard to balance and stay balanced as you are adding new abilities and content for each job.

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 4:11pm by HocusP
#17 Jun 27 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Start with no jobs and have to unlock them all through quests of varying degrees of difficulty, easy for whm for example. The idea that you begin knowing 6+ jobs is not too great, why do you know them, how did you learn them, why does everyone know them? As it is in FFXI its all a bit too vague.

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 7:28pm by triplealphareaction
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#18 Jun 27 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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There needs to be be more balance in classes than 2-3 tanks, and 12 different (nearly interchangeable at times) DDs imo :\
#19 Jun 27 2009 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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It's because Tanks and Healers and Support are almost always the least played, in any MMO, ever. Why do you think you always have to search for Healers and Tanks?
Is it because there aren't enough tank and healer classes?

No, it's because a smaller amount of people enjoy playing said classes, instead favoring the Damage Dealers.


The ratio of tanks and healers to DDs is just fine.

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#20 Jun 27 2009 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirbster wrote:
Besides, if there aren't enough totally unique differences in abilities or playstyle, there really is no reason to NOT condense jobs together to make them more interesting and unique.

I think more than the issue of class balance, this is the problem.

SE can only think of so many unique abilities to give classes. If there are many classes then those abilities become spread out thinly among the different classes. I'd rather have 10 class with 30 abilities each than have 30 classes with only 10 abilities each.
#21 Jun 28 2009 at 2:40 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
For the Chemist, I see him as instead of being tied to buying potions being reliant on his timers. Basically he can mix any number of different items for free, but each has a long mix duration and the more powerful the item the longer (meaning the more likely to be interrupted and the longer you're helpless). Throw instantly uses the item on party members, but if you haven't thought ahead and prepared items ahead of time, you'll have nothing to throw. I see items as being temporary (5 min?).


Temporary items is a pretty good idea, I like that.


Quote:

I think we're totally on the same wavelength as far as what (most of) the jobs do, I just would like to see more. Oracle, Mystic Knight, Cannoneer, Gadgeteer, etc.


Mystic Knight is too much of a one trick pony to design a class around, focusing pretty much entirely on Enspells, so I just merged its Enspell abilities to Black Mage, making them more party-centric. Oracle would probably be best if merged into Scholar for the same reason.

Cannoneer and Gadgeteer would probably be best if merged into a single class, although I wonder if Ranger would have to change to being primarily a Bow-wielding class while the Cannoneer/Gadgeteer uses guns. But then I would fear that it would bear too many similarities to Gambler/Corsair unless it had some special role to play.
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#22 Jun 28 2009 at 4:48 AM Rating: Good
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I can't believe PUP's been neglected by you all :( It might not perform as well as we'd hoped in FFXI (Debatable) but god **** does that job look cool. Perhaps some more effort put into it this time round and I think the job could shine, though perhaps making it into an engineer would be better.
Considering what we've seen of FFXIV in the trailer, it does seem to have a mechanical aspect like many of the recent FF's, though I think they said it wouldn't be FFXIII's level of technology.
A steam-punk-esque style of automaton or something similar would .kick.***.

Also, I think they should focus on making it stick to a more defined pet-job role, perhaps more focussed on damage or team-attacks from the master and automaton. I just like the idea of a permenant pet, something lost on summoner and beastmaster.

It needs to be customisable too, and not in the fake way they said it would be in FFXI, because theres basically no choice on which attachments to use in each situation there, I'd like some cosmetic customisation too.

Oh on a side note, scrap the healing aspect of DNC and make it a DD/Enfeebler/Buffer I say.
#23 Jun 28 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally think that unless the game stays in Vanadiel there's no reason to keep the Puppetmaster in the game. It's one of those classes that appears once and makes you go "huh...", but I think that there are definitely enough other classes to cover its niche.

That said, if FFXIV is very technology oriented (as it looks like it may be) or has a direct relation to FFXI's story line, I can see where the PUP should stay just for story reasons. I think it's a very cool job, but not at all necessary.

:3

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#24 Jun 28 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Default
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I personally think that unless the game stays in Vanadiel there's no reason to keep the Puppetmaster in the game. It's one of those classes that appears once and makes you go "huh...", but I think that there are definitely enough other classes to cover its niche


There is no need to keep ANY job for FFXIV not one of them. Jobs in FF may have similar or the same names, but they are never the same job, it is never the same, sometimes vaguely similar roles, never the same, never has been, never will be, thats why its Final Fantasy!

FFXIV is not FFXI get over it people.


Edited, Jun 28th 2009 8:37pm by triplealphareaction

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 8:38pm by triplealphareaction
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#25 Jun 28 2009 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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I don't remember playing an FF game that had distinct classes where the Warrior so much used swords as they used pretty much every weapon. The only reason swords were the prevalent choice was because, well, they were the most common weapon type.
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#26 Jun 28 2009 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
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FFXIV is not FFXI get over it people.


It will be A LOT like it though, I'd put money on it. It's even being mentioned in the interviews. No one wants XIV to be XI, they just enjoy mentioning what in FFXI can be fixed/removed to make FFXIV a better playing experience, which the Dev. Team themselves plan on doing.
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#27 Jun 28 2009 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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I don't play a job because it's super-unique and no one else can do what I do, I play it mostly for aesthetic reasons. I play what I think looks cool which is why I was attracted to Red Mage and then later Thief. I do, however, agree that I would like to see more abilities for every job instead of being so auto-attack centric. It's fine if 2 jobs do the same thing so long as they each have their own unique "flavor."
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#28 Jun 28 2009 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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triplealphareaction wrote:
There is no need to keep ANY job for FFXIV not one of them. Jobs in FF may have similar or the same names, but they are never the same job, it is never the same, sometimes vaguely similar roles, never the same, never has been, never will be, thats why its Final Fantasy!

FFXIV is not FFXI get over it people.



Almost all FF games have identical jobs. Sure they usually have some sort of a twist in every game but they are virtually identical wherever you go...that is like...quintessential FF. Even games like FFVII where you were basically whatever your materia was you still had a couple characters who fit exactly into the classic role (tifa was a mnk, cid a drg, yufi a nin, aeris a whm).
#29 Jun 28 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, I am a huge stickler for balance and fairness so when I think about new jobs, I think of ways that each category of jobs can utilize different stats efficiently. By this I mean that I would like categories of jobs such as tanks, DDs, healers, etc. to use different stats to achieve similar goals. My examples are:

Tank-
Physical: Vikings (have high HP and VIT to bloodtank)
Evasive: Ninja (uses Utsusemi to evade enemy attacks)
Balanced: Paladin (combines bloodtanking, shield usage, and magic to tank)
Magical: Summoner (could summon avatars with high VIT like Golem to tank. HP would be shared with Summoner thus skill of using SMN and avatar together would be required)
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#30 Jun 28 2009 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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Another spin on the whole idea (that I've already brought up elsewhere, but it was a week or so ago...)

What if all of those different jobs/classes were represented in-game by a category of skills. Similar to how you have individual weapon skill and magic categories in FFXI. Instead of doing quests to unlock jobs, you do quests to unlock that particular category of skills. You wouldn't have to switch to another job to make use of the skills...they would just start out at the minimum possible level and you'd have to develop them through use.

To me, that pretty much solves every possible class balance issue a person could imagine. Instead of saying, "Such-and-such job has <this> <that> and <other thing> that everyone wants in a party, but I've only got <other this> <other that> <other...other thing> and they're not as good so I don't get invites and I don't want to level a whole new job," it becomes a matter of saying, "players that are using <set of skills> in parties are very popular, maybe I should unlock <set of skills> as well and spend some time on it.

I like that idea. It makes me happy inside.

Srsly.
#31 Jun 28 2009 at 9:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Another spin on the whole idea (that I've already brought up elsewhere, but it was a week or so ago...)


And also in my tl;dr post in this very thread?

Although the way I set it up was that your primary skillset denoted your job type. So if White Magic was your primary, you could wear the white robes, etc.
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#32 Jun 28 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
Quote:
Another spin on the whole idea (that I've already brought up elsewhere, but it was a week or so ago...)


And also in my tl;dr post in this very thread?

Although the way I set it up was that your primary skillset denoted your job type. So if White Magic was your primary, you could wear the white robes, etc.


Ya, 'cept I first saw your post when I was scrolling down and saw how long it was, so tl;dr rules applied. If your suggestion of limiting the number of skillsets was implemented so that you never lost (sacrificed) a particular skillset so much as just swapped them around (ala job/subjobs in FFXI) I think it would be viable.
#33 Jun 28 2009 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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Pretty much.

Something akin to XI or FFT, in which you could trade in traits and passive abilities as well, would be pretty cool.

Although I'd toy with the idea with characters getting rusty (and losing efficiency) with particular skillsets the longer they're in disuse.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 10:37pm by Kirbster
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#34 Jun 28 2009 at 9:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kirbster wrote:
Pretty much.

Something akin to XI or FFT, in which you could trade in traits and passive abilities as well, would be pretty cool.

Although I'd toy with the idea with characters getting rusty (and losing efficiency) with particular skillsets the longer they're in disuse.


Can't penalize diversity in an MMO. Once you've got it, you've got it. If you tell people that if they don't use it, they're going to lose it (or even part of it), they won't try anything else unless they really and truly despise what they already have. Can you imagine the outcry from the FFXI population if people with more than three level 75 jobs had to play each of those jobs for <x> amount of time every <y span of time> or those jobs would start to delevel? Bad, bad mojo.
#35 Jun 28 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Nah, never deleveling.

I was thinking more in the terms of how SE mentioned a more organic way of developing and building your character from a blank slate into something geared towards a specific way of playing. (a job, basically.)

It makes me wonder if instant job or skillset changes won't be possible without some sort of penalty or fee.
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#36 Jun 28 2009 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
Nah, never deleveling.

I was thinking more in the terms of how SE mentioned a more organic way of developing and building your character from a blank slate into something geared towards a specific way of playing. (a job, basically.)

It makes me wonder if instant job or skillset changes won't be possible without some sort of penalty or fee.


I would expect that you would be able to swap them around with a trip to your mog house (or FFXIV equivalent). It needn't be an epic task or a costly one...just not something that you can do between fights in the field.
#37 Jun 28 2009 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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FreeLanceFoXx wrote:
I personally think that unless the game stays in Vanadiel there's no reason to keep the Puppetmaster in the game. It's one of those classes that appears once and makes you go "huh...", but I think that there are definitely enough other classes to cover its niche.

That said, if FFXIV is very technology oriented (as it looks like it may be) or has a direct relation to FFXI's story line, I can see where the PUP should stay just for story reasons. I think it's a very cool job, but not at all necessary.

:3



Really? Because I could say the same thing for about a third of the jobs you posted.
#38 Jun 28 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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CireXF wrote:
FreeLanceFoXx wrote:
I personally think that unless the game stays in Vanadiel there's no reason to keep the Puppetmaster in the game. It's one of those classes that appears once and makes you go "huh...", but I think that there are definitely enough other classes to cover its niche.

That said, if FFXIV is very technology oriented (as it looks like it may be) or has a direct relation to FFXI's story line, I can see where the PUP should stay just for story reasons. I think it's a very cool job, but not at all necessary.

:3



Really? Because I could say the same thing for about a third of the jobs you posted.



I wouldn't. Most all of those are recurring jobs that aren't directly tied to a plotline or area.

But I imagine Puppetmaster could be a Gadgeteer, with some changes to it. A little customizable steampunk mecha affair.
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#39 Jun 28 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
CireXF wrote:
FreeLanceFoXx wrote:
I personally think that unless the game stays in Vanadiel there's no reason to keep the Puppetmaster in the game. It's one of those classes that appears once and makes you go "huh...", but I think that there are definitely enough other classes to cover its niche.

That said, if FFXIV is very technology oriented (as it looks like it may be) or has a direct relation to FFXI's story line, I can see where the PUP should stay just for story reasons. I think it's a very cool job, but not at all necessary.

:3



Really? Because I could say the same thing for about a third of the jobs you posted.



I wouldn't. Most all of those are recurring jobs that aren't directly tied to a plotline or area.


I was mostly responding to the "there are definitely enough other classes to cover it's niche" while he lists off classes like Cannoneer and Gunner. And I've never really considered either of those to be "recurring" FF jobs. PUP has a more unique niche than either of those.

Quote:
But I imagine Puppetmaster could be a Gadgeteer, with some changes to it. A little customizable steampunk mecha affair.


Well, yeah, that's pretty much what PUP is right now. Of course, I've always hoped that SE would realease more party support type attatchments, so I'd love for PUP to evolve into just such a direction.
#40 Jun 29 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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CireXF you're absolutely right, it just depends on where you draw the line. I really did consider this and I drew the line at Puppetmaster... It's a job that's appeared only in FFXI, and I think that qualifies it as a one time only job. I mean, you don't see me pulling jobs like Illusionist, Lanista, or Ravager out of my ***, y'know?

Like I mentioned above, I really think SE should cover all of the major Job archetypes from previous FF games somehow. Whether or not each one is considered a full "job" is up to them... I personally would like to see jobs like Gadgeteer and Cannoneer made fully functional, though.

Deathfrance made a post to the same effect as how I feel: Classes can do the same thing but with different "flavors". To me, that means that while Oracle and Black Mage both are elemental nukers, they do so with totally different approaches. I believe that, from a game design standpoint, choices like this make a game unique, and make it feel much more interesting. It's like the choice SE made in the FFT series, which was a major influence for me.



As far as this topic, guys, can we please keep discussion on topic? I know that discussions about how the job system works definitely lead to things like FFXI's balance, but that can go somewhere else. There's a lot of topics that look like they want your opinions there. >:3


Edited, Jun 29th 2009 12:22pm by FreeLanceFoXx
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#41 Jun 29 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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FreeLanceFoXx wrote:
CireXF you're absolutely right, it just depends on where you draw the line. I really did consider this and I drew the line at Puppetmaster... It's a job that's appeared only in FFXI, and I think that qualifies it as a one time only job. I mean, you don't see me pulling jobs like Illusionist, Lanista, or Ravager out of my ***, y'know?

Like I mentioned above, I really think SE should cover all of the major Job archetypes from previous FF games somehow. Whether or not each one is considered a full "job" is up to them... I personally would like to see jobs like Gadgeteer and Cannoneer made fully functional, though.


Yeah, it all comes down to personal taste, especially in a topic like this, and I suppose I'm just such a huge fan of PUP in XI that I'd hate to see it scrapped completely for XIV. Although, I definitely don't expect the job to be translated 100% over into XIV, I'd hope that at least some aspects of it make it over.

As for it's FF relevance, I have always thought of PUP as XI's incarnation of Mime. After all, the puppet has different frames that can mimic other jobs (WAR, RNG, BLM, RDM, WHM), and it also gets attatchments that specifically gives it JAs and spell-like effects of other jobs (Provoke, Blink, DA, en-spells, spikes, shield bash, Flash, Stoneskin, Convert, Haste, Berserk, Aggressor, Defender, Dodge, Store TP, Conserve MP, Erase, Regen, and Refresh). Now, PUP can't imitate everything possible in the game, but that list isn't short by any means.

After all, COR is also a classic FF job (Gambler) wrapped up in a shiny new package with a new name. So I don't see why the same couldn't be said of PUP.



Quote:
Deathfrance made a post to the same effect as how I feel: Classes can do the same thing but with different "flavors". To me, that means that while Oracle and Black Mage both are elemental nukers, they do so with totally different approaches. I believe that, from a game design standpoint, choices like this make a game unique, and make it feel much more interesting. It's like the choice SE made in the FFT series, which was a major influence for me.


By that same token, Flavor has to be different than "same ability, different names". Honestly, I totally lost interest in the FFTA series because it felt like every new job was just a rehash of what I already had, except the names of the abilities were different, and came with different graphics. I didn't feel like playing the new classes was actually *new*.

Here's what I think PUP brought to the table in XI, and what made it it's own unique niche:

-Personal, customizeable pet- BST uses throw-away pets that they find lying around, SMN uses the same summons that every other summon uses, DRG gets their own wyvern, but it's basically the same as every other wyvern except for the name.

With PUP, you not only have a virtual side-kick that you have to cooperate with in battle, but you grow *together*. You watch your puppet's stats, skills, and level get stronger alongside your own. Futhermore, you can actually equip it with specific skills and abilities, and then, when you're using it, you decide which of those abilities activate, and how strong they are when they do. This level of involvement in your pet is something no other pet class provides. This is why playing PUP is such a new and different experience from other pet jobs, even if they may do similar things.

-Flexibility- PUP is the only job in the game that can nuke like a BLM, shoot like a RNG, and also heal like a WHM. Different PUP frames can perform differnt tasks, and can contribute to many different situations and party set-ups. Sure, there may be some issues where some frames don't perform as well as others, but the underlying idea is that PUP can customize thier automaton to perform various tasks.




Now, I've said it before, but I really doubt that PUP itself is going to make a direct translation into XIV. But I really hope they include something similar- a FFXIV version, if you will. If they want to make a Gadgeteer job that uses devices like automaton attatchments to give themselves varying abilities, then that's cool. If they want to make the next incarnation of BST able to raise their own pets and tailor their abilities to what's needed, then that's awesome - I'd love to be able to raise a flan for casting magic, and then raise a tiger for strong physical DD, and then raise a Crab incase I need my pet to tank something. Or if they release a job called Gemini, where you split into two to perform different tasks in battle at the same time, then that'd be fun, too!

In the end, that's all I'm asking for- a job with PUP's customizability, and it's flexibility, and it's unique pet/partner dynamic.
#42 Jul 01 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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This is basically a more indepth explanation of my previous post since I was posting it from my itouch (anyone who has one knows how much of a hassle it is to type long posts on that). The roles the jobs can perform are tanks, dds, healers, nukers, buffers/debuffers, and marksmen (pullers, ranged attackers, etc), and I've categorized each job into a stat underneath their roles; (P)hysical, (M)agical, (A)gility, (B)alanced, and (U)nique.

Tanks:
P: Warrior - Warriors have high DEF to bloodtank and good damage capabilities to keep hate.

M: Summoner - Summoners could summon various summons for tanking duties. Summon Golem or Titan for their high DEF, Ifrit or Odin for keeping hate, Garuda or Leviathan for buffs/healing, etc.

A: Berserker - Contrary to Berserkers in FFV, the Berserkers I'm talking about are the ones in FFX-2. They have high HP, ATK, and EVA, so they can deal good damage to keep hate, evade attacks like a Thief, and in the case they get hit, they have a bucket load of HP. Plus, in FFX-2 Berserkers specialized in evade and counter passive abilities, thus characters have more of an incentive to play and equip themselves in an evasive build due to the damage from counters.

B: Paladin - HP and DEF for bloodtanking, white magic for healing, and shield skill for deflecting attacks.

U: Beastmaster - I'm basing this on the FFXI class, specifically, it's passive abilities. With such immense killer traits, the Beastmaster could tank via "stunning" their enemies with their killer traits. Proc rate could be increased when using a monster of the opposing/overpowered food chain (Arcane <-> Demons, Aquans > Amorphs, etc.)

DDs:
P: Monk - Standard damage dealer. Everyone of their skills should be geared for increasing damage output.

M: Blue Mage - They are frontline fighters with physical skills they have to "cast". Same as in FFXI, just more focus of physical skills.

A: Ninja - Same as in FFXI, excluding Utsusemi.

B: Dark Knight - More magical capabilities than in FFXI, and slightly better physical skills.

U: Samurai - Samurai are "unique" in the sense that they would rely on their skills/stances to deal damage.

Healer:
P: Dancer - Fight and heal, just like in FFXI.

M: White Mage - Same as in every FF with White Mages.

A: Scholar - I had a hard time coming up with a job for an Agility based healer, but after much thought, the Scholar was the best job I could come up with. Though not having great evasion or AGI, agility refers to a character's speed, and speed = time. Thus, Scholars will specialize in healing over time spells like Regen, Refresh, and Regain.

B: Bishop - Bishops could be frontline healers like Dancers, but specialize on DEF rather than EVA. They would be able to use healing spells via magic, and minor buff skills with their TP or w/e its gonna be in FFXIV. Though not a spike healer like WHM or a gradual healer like SCH, Bishops would sport the most divine magical skills such as Banish and Holy in lieu with their link with religion.

U: Chemist - They heal via the usage of items and can create unique effects with the Mix ability.

Nuker:
P: Psychic - Uses nothing but physical skills just like magical attacks. They nuke with a wide array of physical skills, but aren't close ranged like Blue Mages.

M: Black Mage - Typical BLM goodness.

A: Hunter - Utilizes Barrages of magically imbued arrows. Great damage output, but long cast/recast time.

B: Magic Knight - I want Magic Knights to have great HP and INT, that way they can stay on the front lines and utilize their magic blades to the fullest, without worry of dying as quickly as a BLM.

U: Gambler - Gamblers would use slot abilities to cast magical skills.

Buffer/Debuffer:
P: Templar - Templars would have great physical stats, but low magical stats. Yet, they would specialize in many offensive buffs such as Haste, Accuracy Boosts, etc. Their equipment wouldn't be as bad as other buffers/debuffers and could actually rival those of physical DDs.

M: Bard - Same as in FFXI.

A: Time Mage - Going by the same standards as Scholars, AGI = speed = time. Thus, a Time Mage would fit by playing around with time/space skills like Haste, Slow, Reflect, etc.

B: Red Mage - More physically adept than in FFXI, but mostly the same debuffer. Loses Refresh to SCH and magic blades to Magic Knights.

U: Geomancer - The ever popular GEO, who would use every aspect of the terrain to cause status effects.

Marksman:
P: Dragoon - Jump abilities would be used from a long range to pull enemies.

M: Trickster - Cards used from long range are based on INT and can cause ailments, akin to Quick Shot from Corsairs.

A: Ranger - Same as your typical Archer.

B: Thief - Thief are under balanced because they can perform decently well at a close range, but can also use ranged weapons with ease.

U: Cannonneer - Changes the quality of their attacks with their abilities.
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#43 Jul 01 2009 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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There is a way to make Ninja more DD (like the way SE initially intended) while taking it out of the "main tank" role: instead of -delay being a native trait, have -delay based on the number of shadows remaining per recast of Utsusemi as the basis of your DOT i.e. so the more shadows that are lost, the greater the penalty to DOT.

Aside from that, I don't see why you'd want to restrict the current jobs to what's already been seen in the Final Fantasy universe. After all - SE's objective is to create the best game. But I would like to see more weapon types and base models for weapons rather than the limited designs currently in FFXI.
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#44 Jul 03 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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This was all a really fun read =) I'm eager to see what XIV will have in store for us, but for now all these speculations and ideas are pumping me up even more for the game!

A lot of what I wanted to say has been said, but just wanted to add -- to the person who suggested Rangers use traps -- YES! I have to say, during my RO days long long ago, I loved playing hunter class and laying down traps to deal with enemies. Would be interesting to see that implemented somehow.
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