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Unique in game item for those who played FFXI?Follow

#102 Jul 09 2009 at 3:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It WILL cause a continental divide in the playerbase.


That kind of thinking has already been branded as extreme...

And people wonder why people like lolgaxe make comments like he did...
#103 Jul 09 2009 at 3:04 AM Rating: Decent
10 posts
Quote:
We have one party maturely (for the most part) voicing logical concerns about an idea and the proponents of said idea flying around in jetpacks raining ***** down upon them. Just because you disagree doesn't mean there's any real reason not to attempt to see eye to eye.


Yeah, it's a completely logical concern, given how badly THIS EXACT SITUATION PLAYED OUT IN WAR.

It's clear you don't know the first thing about DAoC, WAR or how the offer worked, so I must admit to being a little surprised you're still trying to tell me how it worked.

Everyone who'd ever played DAoC (trial accounts, subbed acounts, whatever) in its entire history up to the date the Knots were sent out, were sent a code to their email to redeem into a knot. The game account wasn't involved in any way, simply the email address that'd been used to register for the game. As I previously stated, that's a lot of people, most of whom moved to WAR.


And on the subject of WAR, the DAoC players seemed to get over the forum-whing-preconceptions about the WAR players, AOC players and LOTRO players quickly enough, and everyone played fine. If the PvP-focused players who made up DAoC's hardcore can play the game without whining, I don't see how the FF players can't. The reason FFXI players are the most vocal in decrying the players of other MMOs is because FFXI was a very hard game, and since FFXIV won't be, the skill level required will be a lot closer to WoW's. There won't be any room to cry out about 'those gimp WoW noobs' when everyone's on a level playing field. As I said before, the whining'll stop once the game's out, and since it'll be such a big departure from FFXI the old mentalities will no longer apply.

Of course the argument's silly, there's no real reason NOT to give this trinket out. I've tried to see your point, but I don't believe that anyone's game experience will be in any way diminished by not receiving an item that the ex-FFXI players do. You may think it's the end of the world (you've made that quite clear at least), but I've set to see a real reason WHY, other than 'FF Players used to hate everyone else, the logical step forwards from this is to ostracise everyone who didn't play FFXI!' which is particularly asinine because I think the MMO community as a whole has grown up a lot since MMOs became big. The ramblings of forum-goers rarely have any effect on anything, because forums are simply a place where you can whine anonymously about whatever takes your fancy.


AND:
Quote:
Though I know you want so badly to think that the only people who would oppose this FFXI trinket are the non-FFXI players who can't stand up to your level of elite.


Yes, a single level 75, no merits and no set gear beyond AF1 is totally elite. Everyone who hasn't acheived this should throw themselves in a river so there's more oxygen left for me. Like I said, I see no reason a small trinket shouldn't be offered to ex-FFXI players, because it worked in WAR and like the other guy said, works with any fan-event or the like. There's a difference between being proud of a small customer loyalty reward and ostracising others because they don't have it, and that's the only 'continental divide' here. Realistically, nobody is going to think differently of anyone because they don't have the trinket, WAR shows us this.
#104 Jul 09 2009 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
lolgaxe took the hyperbole way overboard.
You have to admit, its pretty ridiculous that people think that "elitists" are going to scorn those that wouldn't be able to get whatever was offered. I don't know about you, but I don't remember losing out on exp parties in FFXI because I didn't have the Airship furnishing for my Mog House, or not being invited to raids because I didn't get the Polar Bear mount from Blizzcon.
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#105 Jul 09 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Allegory wrote:
lolgaxe took the hyperbole way overboard.
You have to admit, its pretty ridiculous that people think that "elitists" are going to scorn those that wouldn't be able to get whatever was offered. I don't know about you, but I don't remember losing out on exp parties in FFXI because I didn't have the Airship furnishing for my Mog House, or not being invited to raids because I didn't get the Polar Bear mount from Blizzcon.


Oh, but they secretly knew. They knew and they shunned you. Shunned you hardcore man. Man they knew.

lolwut
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#106 Jul 09 2009 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Your post is unintentionally proving my point:

dysc wrote:
The reason FFXI players are the most vocal in decrying the players of other MMOs is because FFXI was a very hard game, and since FFXIV won't be, the skill level required will be a lot closer to WoW's.


I'm not even going to rehash the argument that time consuming =/= skill required. It's been done dozens of times before, yet people still seem to cling to the false comparison in fear that their time spent in-game will be devalued if it is not true.

You've come out and claimed that XI requires more skill than most other MMOs, i.e., XI players are more skilled than players of other MMOs. From my experience, that's an opinion that's very common among XI players. So, you dump a given number of XI players into a brand new game with a given number of other MMO players, you already have a built-in bias among the people in the game. If the players are given a way to visually differentiate between the two groups, that bias becomes easier to act upon.

Moghouse items wouldn't do this - I just think it's silly. "When I look at this, I think of the years I spent playing a different video game made by the same company that made this one!". But whatever keeps you entertained, I guess.


Quote:
There won't be any room to cry out about 'those gimp WoW noobs' when everyone's on a level playing field. As I said before, the whining'll stop once the game's out, and since it'll be such a big departure from FFXI the old mentalities will no longer apply.


Eventually, maybe, but the first month of a new MMO is make-or-break time. Word of mouth spreads about everything from the gameplay to the community. Vanguard was maybe the best example of this. Yes, the game was extremely buggy at release, but the community was a nightmare. Non-EQ vets need not apply because the game was made for EQ grinders alone - they were the hardcore, if you would have listened to the in-game chatter at release. An EQ token would have made things even worse than they were. I left that game because of the people playing it, and I know I was not alone.

All I'm saying is S-E runs that same risk with XIV.


---


And to the OP, please, continue acting like anyone disagreeing with you is making fun of your child. It's precious, it really is.
#107 Jul 09 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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It's all dependant on the player when it comes down to it.

Some people really like sentimentality and tradition, while others don't.

Some people like to keep a picture of a loved one for example so that they will never be forgotten, on the other hand others will feel the only way to forget about them is to remove their existance.

The option wouldnt hurt to be there.
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#108 Jul 09 2009 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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ditx wrote:
It's all dependant on the player when it comes down to it.

Some people really like sentimentality and tradition, while others don't.

Some people like to keep a picture of a loved one for example so that they will never be forgotten, on the other hand others will feel the only way to forget about them is to remove their existance.

The option wouldnt hurt to be there.


I dare say that a lot of people spend more time in XI than with their loved ones.

Plus, I spent a ton of time playing Super Tecmo Bowl growing up but I'd never even consider wanting a digitized Christian Okoye poster hanging on my wall to remind me of the time I spent playing it.

You're comparing Final Fantasy XI to a deceased family member. It's time to step away from the video game for a bit.
#109 Jul 09 2009 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
10 posts
Quote:
Your post is unintentionally proving my point:

I'm not even going to rehash the argument that time consuming =/= skill required. It's been done dozens of times before, yet people still seem to cling to the false comparison in fear that their time spent in-game will be devalued if it is not true.


I take your point here, skill probably wasn't the most suitable word to use.

Quote:
You've come out and claimed that XI requires more skill than most other MMOs, i.e., XI players are more skilled than players of other MMOs. From my experience, that's an opinion that's very common among XI players. So, you dump a given number of XI players into a brand new game with a given number of other MMO players, you already have a built-in bias among the people in the game. If the players are given a way to visually differentiate between the two groups, that bias becomes easier to act upon.


This first part seems true enough, XI players DO claim a higher skill level than others, but I find it very hard to believe that people will automatically act on such a small bias. There are the best part of 17 million MMO players, and I doubt very much if a bias held in 2004-05 is still relevant now, given the massive dilution of the market since then. Most of the people I know who played XI left it because they felt as a game it was behind the times, and most of those people have been patiently waiting for for Square to make a new one. Again, maybe I only know sensible people, but I still doubt there'll be anything like the gap you envision between ex-FFXI players and players from other MMOs.

Quote:
Eventually, maybe, but the first month of a new MMO is make-or-break time. Word of mouth spreads about everything from the gameplay to the community. Vanguard was maybe the best example of this. Yes, the game was extremely buggy at release, but the community was a nightmare. Non-EQ vets need not apply because the game was made for EQ grinders alone - they were the hardcore, if you would have listened to the in-game chatter at release. An EQ token would have made things even worse than they were. I left that game because of the people playing it, and I know I was not alone.

All I'm saying is S-E runs that same risk with XIV.


Vanguard's problem was launching what was essentially EQ3 two weeks after Blizzard released their first expansion. The genre had moved on massively since the time of EQ, and it's really no surprise the game won various awards for sucking. If the game sucks, of course players are going to complain. But given that Square are taking every opportunity to distance themselves from the bad elements of FFXI [the obnoxious grinding, lack of real quest rewards, inability to play solo] the two games aren't going to share a whole lot other than a brand and the races. I don't see why a small trinket should be out of the question for loyal customers, and if it has to be a Moghouse item, not a problem, I loved the ones I had before.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 11:56am by dysc
#110 Jul 09 2009 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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akelah wrote:
PrinnyFlute wrote:
That's an amusing thing for someone to think. Has someone said something to that effect?


Thats an interesting question, gimmie a sec.

PrinnyFlute wrote:
The thought seems to be that if the 'bonus' is something flamboyant and visible (like a big flashing hat) it will make it even easier for the elitists among the FFXI players to tell who is and isn't new and shun them accordingly.


Both quote are from you by the way.


Do you honestly think me saying the argument is about it being "easier to shun" is somehow equivalent to a "continental divide"? I mean, seriously?

...That's just...I.. Basic reading comprehension? Those quotes don't even match. Continental Divide =/= An increase in shunning capacity.

akelah wrote:

I find it ammusing that all you doom-sayers assume I was even suggesting the 'flashing hat'. I suggest you all go and read the first post and then take a look at exatly what I was making the comparision too.


Actually I came in, saw people talking about elitists, and then saw you insulting them needlessly and acting like that argument is completely groundless and just tried to point out the logic behind it and that it's a valid concern if it's a flashing hat. I never said or assumed you wanted a flashing hat. I even said a few times that I agreed that a little mog house trinket would be cute.
akelah wrote:

If you wanna stick up for the idiots who would take offence at this item being given out, then that's all well and good, but again, you're really no better than those who would kick off over it to start with, since your trying to keep them happy at the expense of everyone elses gaming pleasure. Because that's what we play for. You know, its a game. Not a way of life.


If you want to so whole heartedly ignore the point that the "flashing hat" scenario (and NOT a mog house trinket scenario, at least as far as I'm concerned) may (debatable as it may be, but the fact remains that it's not being debated or considered, it's being outright dismissed) make some players be ruder to others than they already would be and make the game less fun for them, all so you can have a cute little hat. I mean, if you want to (theoretically) make some players more miserable just for a slight increase in your "gaming pleasure", hey, whatever.

Please, also, for the love of god, stop putting up the pretense that people arguing in this fashion are trying to take your trinket away from you. Square Enix is not going to be actively deciding whether or not to include your Vana'Diel commemorative plate set in FFXIV based on this thread on a forum. We are just regular, no-name players posting for fun and speculation.
****, if there were an ACTUAL vote or poll on the FFXIV website, I'd probably vote "Why not?"!

Shazaamemt wrote:
You did prinny, in just about every post.


Seriously? I have? I'll go back and read here, but I'm pretty sure I kept saying things like
"(The thought behind the argument is:) It would make jerks bigger jerks," or
"(The thought behind the argument is:) It would make it easier for elitists to separate themselves from and be unreasonable towards new players," and never
"IT WOULD MAKE THE ELITISTS AND NEWBIES SPLIT TO DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE SERVER IN AN ALL OUT SOCIAL WAR".

The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I guess SE should just go ahead and stop giving people useless ingame items for going to fanfest too. Right?

Seriously, there are a bunch of items in ffxi that a lot of us want, but we don't cry that the others shouldn't be able to get them just because we couldn't. There's no difference between that and what it's going to be like in ffxiv.


I understand your point, but the situations aren't exactly compatible. Were there FFXI players saying, "Man, I hate people that don't go to FanFest" before they got their trinkets for going to FanFest? Imagine an alternate universe where FanFest attendees hate the living **** out of non-attendees, and then give all the attendees in-game t-shirts that say, "I WENT TO FANFEST". That's more along the lines of the argument here. (Which is highly exaggerated! HIGHLY. I know it wouldn't be that bad, I'm just saying.)

Akelah wrote:
ihatetaru wrote:
It WILL cause a continental divide in the playerbase.


That kind of thinking has already been branded as extreme...

And people wonder why people like lolgaxe make comments like he did...


I'm pretty sure he was being very sarcastic.

dysc wrote:
Yeah, it's a completely logical concern, given how badly THIS EXACT SITUATION PLAYED OUT IN WAR.


Well, to be precise, no two situations are exactly the same. There are always differences, one of the larger ones here is the thought that some posters seem to be able to back up that FFXI's community is very drama compatible. Also, don't forget when I very earnestly asked:

PrinnyFlute wrote:
Did a lot of Dark Age of Camelot players consider players from other MMOs/non-MMO players to be idiots and worthless "casuals"? I can't speak for that situation, but there's more than enough proof here that some FFXI fans think WoW players and "casual" gamers second in stupidity only to single celled organisms. Which is where this whole issue comes from.


I was actually asking. As in expecting an answer with less yelling so we could talk like regular people.

You went on in your post to say that there was a lot of forum whining about non-DAoC players on those forums but then the community worked out in the end. Well, there are some fundamental differences in the FFXI/FFXIV community, so the argument could still be made, but even so: okay. So we have a similar incident wherein things didn't turn out so bad (according to you). That's a valid piece of evidence. It actually matches with what I have said before: it would probably actually not be that big of a deal. But the thought, the inkling of of an idea, that there are some players who are jerks and would take advantage of "did play FFXI" flags is still not 100% thwarted.

Also, again, was the n00b hating nearly as bad on DAoC as it is now with the FFXI playerbase? You said it was annoying, but you haven't qualified if it was to this degree. And still: even given that, we're talking different types of players and a different playerbase here.

dysc wrote:
Everyone who'd ever played DAoC (trial accounts, subbed acounts, whatever) in its entire history up to the date the Knots were sent out, were sent a code to their email to redeem into a knot. The game account wasn't involved in any way, simply the email address that'd been used to register for the game. As I previously stated, that's a lot of people, most of whom moved to WAR.


Okay, so they did it differently in WAR. I was assuming for FFXIV they would use account information, but in WAR they actually used email addresses instead. My...sincerest apologies? The argument I'm supporting, half devil's-advocate style, that "there are jerks, this may make them bigger jerks" is deflated?

Besides, even if WAR did it that way, I'm not even convinced FFXIV would. Square's customer support and ease of access isn't exactly legendary here.

...And yet, these wild, roaming elitists would still view people who only played FFXI for a month or two as smarter than your average WoW player because they still think playing FFXI requires some nigh infinite amount of intelligence compared to WoW or any other game. People who "only" got one character to 75 still had to be "smart enough" to play FFXI.

dysc wrote:
Of course the argument's silly, there's no real reason NOT to give this trinket out. I've tried to see your point...


Then why are your posts repeatedly worded as "You're an idiot, look how wrong you are!!" and never "Really, I just don't agree. I don't think it would turn out that way" like a reasonable person? There have been numerous posts so far about how completely stupid and entirely impossible it is that some players would dare use a hat that denotes who did and didn't play super-smart-game-FFXI as a means to help some jerks better target their jerkdom.

I mean, you can disagree, sure, fine, that's why we're here. But does that really sound like the language of someone who's really considered the counter-point and is formulating a thoughtful reply?

[quote=dysc]You may think it's the end of the world (you've made that quite clear at least)...[/quote]

Actually, I've made it incredibly clear that I don't think that, but I'll come back to that in a bit.

[quote=dysc]...but I've set to see a real reason WHY, other than 'FF Players used to hate everyone else, the logical step forwards from this is to ostracise everyone who didn't play FFXI!' which is particularly asinine because I think the MMO community as a whole has grown up a lot since MMOs became big. The ramblings of forum-goers rarely have any effect on anything, because forums are simply a place where you can whine anonymously about whatever takes your fancy.[/quote]

Correction: Some FFXI players still hate everyone else. The evidence for this is right in front of your face on these forums, as a number of us have pointed out. We're not talking about some distant past wherein we assume that old bugaboos are coming out of the woodwork to torment the new players coming to FFXIV, the arguments here are about actual opinions that are held right now by people we are regularly communicating with.

I have to say I don't quite agree with the idea that MMO communities have "grown up" to the point that this is a complete non-concern anyway. If they've done so, then why are there so many people around this area (and elsewhere in the FFXI community) already being flaming elitists as we speak? And yes, you make a good point that forums are usually populated by the vocal minority. For one, I think that's another good reason for why it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal, but for another, we're not just talking a "few" people here. To some degree, the thoughts of forum goers represent a percentage of all players, and a lot of posters in the FFXI/FFXIV stratosphere are pretty **** elitist. This isn't just a handful of posters we're talking about here.

Also, in case you haven't been paying attention to gaming as a whole, the idea that "casual" gamers are dumb as dirt is not an isolated event. You don't have to spend five minutes at any "hardcore" gaming watering hole to find that anti-"casual" elitism is incredibly widespread. The evidence for its existence is million-fold, so it's hardly like there's "no proof" that there many people out there that already have very elitist attitudes toward "casual" and non-gamers, and it's hardly unreasonable to think that a number of FFXI players (a number, not all) have similar thoughts.

[quote=dysc]Yes, a single level 75, no merits and no set gear beyond AF1 is totally elite. Everyone who hasn't acheived this should throw themselves in a river so there's more oxygen left for me. Like I said, I see no reason a small trinket shouldn't be offered to ex-FFXI players, because it worked in WAR and like the other guy said, works with any fan-event or the like. There's a difference between being proud of a small customer loyalty reward and ostracising others because they don't have it, and that's the only 'continental divide' here. Realistically, nobody is going to think differently of anyone because they don't have the trinket, WAR shows us this.[/quote]

Again: the "elitism" we're talking about is the opinion that a FFXI player is better than non-FFXI-players because these elitists think that FFXI takes much more intelligence and skill. How awesome and end-game you are does not matter in this discussion. And might I note the original quote of that was because you made a comment that very clearly said, "In this argument we have FFXI players that are smart and just want a trinket, and non-FFXI players who are dumb and just whining":

[quote=dysc]This entire argument seems like its two sides are 1: FF players who'd like some small measure of their past enjoyment to take with them, and 2: Crybabies who think that a small item given to ex-FFXI players means they won't be allowed to exist.[/quote]

You could look up elitist in the dictionary and you just might find that quote in the sidebar. That is why I implied that you are "the elite", because you basically made a statement implying that FFXI players ARE "the elite". It has nothing to do with your actual achievements in FFXI, as does the idea of elitism as a whole.

And (AGAIN) WAR is different. The repeated ad nauseum argument here is that there is a chance that some people would be jerks. Saying "In this different environment I never met any jerks related to this trinket!" doesn't exactly disprove much considering:
1) This argument is about a different game so the chances of this happening are also different, though evidence about a similar game is relevant.
2) There's a very good chance that you have not met every single player to ever have a Pendragon's Knot in WAR, therefor you can't exactly claim that these alleged people don't exist at all.
3) The argument is (AGAIN) about a possibility, and a percentile of people. NOT about everyone turning mean and elitist, NOT about creating a huge divide between players, and NOT about millions of players being in an uproar. We're talking about some jerks just being bigger jerks.

[quote=lolgaxe]You have to admit, its pretty ridiculous that people think that "elitists" are going to scorn those that wouldn't be able to get whatever was offered.[/quote]

By what logic is the statement,

"In a situation wherein group A of players hates group B, giving them a big shiny flag that says 'I'm in Group A!' would cause some of that group to be even ruder to group B than they would have because they can more easily discern the divide"

Highly unreasonable, and yet the statement,

"In a situation wherein group A of players hates group B, giving them a big shiny flag that says 'I'm in Group A!' would never have any effect whatsoever on any players actions toward another"

Is considered perfectly sensible and not harmful in its absolutism.

Don't even get me wrong, the idea that the backlash and elitism slightly encouraged by it probably wouldn't have any sort of noticeable effect or be any sort of big deal, I'm totally behind that, it makes sense. But that's a different statement from "This would have no effect whatsoever, and the idea that it might have any effect at all is ridiculous".


So going back a step.

[quote=dysc]You may think it's the end of the world (you've made that quite clear at least)...[/quote]

Where does this even come from? I suppose from a tight-clenched grip around and love of issue polarization, which is really very common? That when someone disagrees with you it's time to demonize them to the maximum and make as many assumptions as possible?

Anyway, no. Considering you're speaking about me directly, I can say you are completely and utterly wrong and with evidence to prove it:

[quote=PrinnyFlute, Page 1]...I'm not 100% against the idea, but...

But I also don't think it's as huge a deal as all that sounds, anyway. People like that will be gunning for non-FFXI players with or without their flashy hats. The actual idea of a little memento is kind of adorable, all that aside, and it's not actually that hard of a thing to pull off.[/quote]

[quote=PrinnyFlute, Page 2]...I don't think it's all that bad, and asses will be asses regardless. A little flag for your player residence would be cute. But there's something of a valid concern behind the thought.[/quote]

[quote=PrinnyFlute, Page 2]The idea is that if it is universally visible it would make some people who do have it bigger jerks than they already are. The thought that it would make FFXI players who already hate non-FFXI players hate them more and make it easier for them to do so.

Nobody's talking about being jealous or wanting the item. It's all about how it would make the elitists with this item act.

I'm not even entirely against the idea of getting some cute trinket. Just saying, since there seems to be a lot of confusion on the points here.[/quote]

[quote=PrinnyFlute, Page 2]
Well, yes. That's a valid thought, and kind of my stance on it. It'd probably honestly be nothing more than a cute, harmless trinket, especially if it's non-visible, and I think if SE thinks about the idea they'll probably go ahead with it, since they'll already be doing friends lists and like to dish out the fan service anyway...[/quote]

I know how much fun it is to turn someone into your personal demon for the sake of conversation, but I haven't exactly been living it up in some fantasy world where I hate this damned trinket because it will cause all FFXI players to chase all n00bs out of FFXIV. Sorry to disappoint, ruin your fun, etc.

Now that I've spent way too long ramming my head against a wall for fun (trust me, I'm not doing this for the "cause". I know people aren't exactly going to start talking all of a sudden) I'll go do something else to amuse myself.

*Edit: So I broke my ability to use quotes and wrote a *&%$ing novella. Huzzah. And crap. I'd use spoiler tags to fold this up for the sake of sanity, but apparently they just black it all out. Sorry. Just sorry.

Last edited, Jul 9th 2009 12:22pm by PrinnyFlute

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 12:24pm by PrinnyFlute
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#111 Jul 09 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Good, this is just getting inane now.

There's no evidence to suggest that whiny forum posters means there'll be an important split in the playerbase between those who get a trinket and those who don't. In the only remotely similar example, the trinket was a nice gift from Mythic and nobody lost out over it.

Maybe I have too much faith in complete strangers, but I still find it laughable that any of this could translate into a severe split. I'm sure whatever elitists still remain will either die out by launch or have far more intricate methods of distancing themselves from the rest of the game than a small trinket available to anyone who'd ever played FFXI.
#112 Jul 09 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, yes, but we were never talking about a severe split. If anything, there were people saying that this could make the elitist subset bigger jerks than they already are. And I think, as I've used the example before, it's a logical conclusion that if A hates B and you give A a t-shirt that says, "I'M A!" it can exacerbate the problem.

It boggles my mind, repeatedly, that it seems so impossible for some to concede the middle ground on the very simple idea that:

A big flashy flag given to jerks (whom we know exist) could make them bigger jerks.

See, I didn't use the word "WOULD", nor did I say anything about a rift, lost customers, or that it would be the end of the world. I didn't even say it would make ALL jerks bigger jerks, or that some elitist army would rally around this flag and decimate the n00b hordes.

But then polarization of issues is the entire reason we'll be nuking ourselves out of existence any day now, so.

(Also, not that I blame you for not reading it, but I did make points in my novel, like the fact that anti-"Casual" elitism is actually incredibly widespread in gaming fandom as a whole, and that I, in actuality, am not some fire breathing monster terribly bent against the idea of FFXI players getting some random trinket.)
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#113 Jul 09 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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O.O

are people really getting this worked up about a HYPOTHETICAL item that will, if implemented, will likely be nothing more than a worthless trinket?

I love people, they give me lulz.
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#114 Jul 09 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Well, yes, but we were never talking about a severe split.


It was a severe enough split for many to brand the idea as taboo and vote a definate 'no'. Seems pretty servere to me. I mean, to refuse a group of people this tiny thing, in an effort to stop forum whinning and prevent elitism. Oh wait. Its an MMO. NOTHING will ever stop that.

Quote:
An increase in shunning capacity


You (and others) still implied a divide, and this is what people are picking up on and consider it a bit silly. I'm sure their interpretations are considered a bit melodramatic, but so is the whole idea that a divide would even come about over something like this.

As for the whole 'flashing hat'. Its not a flashing hat, as always it has no use. It has no function. You can not even wear it. It will and should go in ones player residence. I have expressed this from my very first post in here that this is all it should be, yet still it is deemed a terrible idea because it will bring pleasure to one group of people and not to another. A very small pleasure and one those without it, will not miss, because if they didn't experience the JOY to FFXI then there is no JOY for them to take in the form of this trinket.

People have done nothing but make assumptions and when actual proof that something like this can work very well and HAS worked very well, all I see is "FF is not like any other MMO" and in some way that is meant to disprove the evidence as untrustworthy? I don't agree. So what FFXI wasn't casual and it took a **** of a long time to complete all there was to complete. You did have to know what you were doing and I know a BLM that filled his macro pallet with every spell he had. It wasn't a game you could pick up and master in a matter of minutes. There was always things to consider. Hate management, Elemental Wheel, Skill-Chain combos, Timing for Magic Bursts, what weapons worked against what mobs, what magic worked against what mobs. It took a little longer to learn, it took a while to master, but it is still a game and most people can tell the difference between that and an actual serious issue.

To those who don't want/need/consider it important then (should it be included) don't get it, but I hardly think its fair to refuse it to everyone else just because of a difference in opinion and tastes.

The reason I have defended the idea as much as I have, is yes, I would like to see something like this in the game, but also I really (despite the trolls, egos and ********** do not see this causing any kind of divide, continetal or other-wise. It's silly to even suggest it.
#115 Jul 09 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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If this idea is implemented the South will secede again, and they will take Alaska with them.
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#116 Jul 09 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Default
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akelah wrote:
It was a severe enough split for many to brand the idea as taboo and vote a definate 'no'. Seems pretty servere to me. I mean, to refuse a group of people this tiny thing, in an effort to stop forum whinning and prevent elitism. Oh wait. Its an MMO. NOTHING will ever stop that.


Who voted the entire idea taboo and said "No". Quote it please; if someone has, I'd even agree that that's going a bit too far.

Let me stop you before you randomly quote me: I quoted at least four different posts of mine wherein I basically said, "Sounds like a cool idea, I thought it would be fun if it were in your mog house." So no, you can't pull that card on me, at least.

akelah wrote:

You (and others) still implied a divide, and this is what people are picking up on and consider it a bit silly. I'm sure their interpretations are considered a bit melodramatic, but so is the whole idea that a divide would even come about over something like this.


Myself, I wasn't particularly implying a divide. Just because one group of players is pestering another doesn't really imply a distinct or major "divide". Maybe you could even phrase it as an increase in grief-like behavior?

All I keep trying to say is that there are jerks who hate non-FFXI-players, and it stands to reason that if you give them big flashing hats (which is what I'm talking about; not mog house furniture) they'll be able to more easily tell who isn't in the FFXI club and be rude to them or shun them accordingly.

Can you honestly say that you've had sufficient experience with human beings and still try to propose that people like this don't exist?

akelah wrote:
As for the whole 'flashing hat'. Its not a flashing hat, as always it has no use. It has no function. You can not even wear it. It will and should go in ones player residence. I have expressed this from my very first post in here that this is all it should be, yet still it is deemed a terrible idea because it will bring pleasure to one group of people and not to another. A very small pleasure and one those without it, will not miss, because if they didn't experience the JOY to FFXI then there is no JOY for them to take in the form of this trinket.


In your original post you mentioned the Pendragon's Knot, which is wearable, and talked about the possibility of it being wearable.

If you go back to my first posts in this thread you'll see: I very specifically said "IF it is wearable/visible then there may be problems" and said that "IF it's in your mog house, then that sounds like a cool idea to me."

The entire thread I've basically been saying "Wearable; maybe problems with that. In your Mog House; that sounds cool."

akelah wrote:

People have done nothing but make assumptions and when actual proof that something like this can work very well and HAS worked very well, all I see is "FF is not like any other MMO" and in some way that is meant to disprove the evidence as untrustworthy?


The only proof so far is the Pendragon's Knot from WAR. And there are good points on both why that's different and why that's not much proof anyway. "It didn't cause a huge divide" and "I never witnessed anybody being elitist about it" aren't exactly hardcore proof that it never caused anyone to be slightly elitist at all.

Really, the funny thing here is how positively middle-of-the-road some of us are on this issue, and yet we're still getting blasted like we were the anti-christ(s) of trinkets.

If you were to say, "Yeah, I guess some people might form their elitist little LS based on who has flashy hat if the trinket is wearable, but I don't think it would be that big of a deal and how much enjoyment/reasonable pride FFXI players would get out of it would far outweigh the strength of some loser elitists!" then I would be like **** yeah! We're communicating at a reasonable level! I mostly agree!

Really it all amuses me and saddens me at the same time.

akelah wrote:
...but it is still a game and most people can tell the difference between that and an actual serious issue.


MMORPG players are the least likely type of gamer to "tell the difference between a game and an actual serious issue." If anything, that's one of my least favorite things about the genre. Finding other players that just want to enjoy themselves and won't tell me how to play the game is nigh impossible sometimes. I mean ****, I wouldn't mind a nice flashy hat: I'd just appreciate it as a nice trinket, and I think it wouldn't ultimately do that much damage. But I'll still say that there do exist people who take the game waaay too seriously and would use as their signal for who's cool and smart and who's not. And that's practically the entire argument: those people exist. A "wearable" trinket isn't an idea without holes, even if you want to argue that on the whole it's more good than harm.

bardalicious wrote:
O.O

are people really getting this worked up about a HYPOTHETICAL item that will, if implemented, will likely be nothing more than a worthless trinket?

I love people, they give me lulz.


You know, bard-a-luscious. The only reason I jumped in here in the first place was because people seem to be repeatedly categorically denying the fact that elitism exists or that elitists would take advantage of an opportunity to be more elitist. And I do much so hate elitists.

And now: here I am. Save me plz. Take me back to ur lair. :(

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 2:37pm by PrinnyFlute
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#117 Jul 09 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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PrinnyFlute wrote:
You know, bard-a-luscious. The only reason I jumped in here in the first place was because people seem to be repeatedly categorically denying the fact that elitism exists or that elitists would take advantage of an opportunity to be more elitist. And I do much so hate elitists.

Knowing SE, if they did make a special item for people who played FFXI, it'd be useless from a gameplay perspective. It would only identify people who played FFXI, at most (seeing how it is likely to be a decoration for a moghouse-like system). The stupid part would be elitists trying to extrapolate an association with FFXI into uberness in FFXIV. the two games will likely be completely different. It'd be like me assuming you'd suck at FFXIV because you haven't played Sims3. It is a ridiculous lolwut situation.

PrinnyFlute wrote:
And now: here I am. Save me plz. Take me back to ur lair. :(

what? no dinner first? what kind of a guy do you think i am?



Edited, Jul 9th 2009 3:30pm by Bardalicious
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#118 Jul 09 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Bardalicious wrote:
Knowing SE, if they did make a special item for people who played FFXI, it'd be useless from a gameplay perspective. It would only identify people who played FFXI, at most (seeing how it is likely to be a decoration for a moghouse-like system). The stupid part would be elitists trying to extrapolate an association with FFXI into uberness in FFXIV. the two games will likely be completely different. It'd be like me assuming you'd suck at FFXIV because you haven't played Sims3. It is a ridiculous lolwut situation.


Ezzactly. I think most of the thought is only on the social paradigm; elitists peacocks in their FFXI hats prancing around and claiming superiority over all the unworthy WoWn00bs. With any luck on SE's part there'll be such a large influx of bright eyed, bushy-tailed newcomers that these folks will be lost in the wave.

bardalicious wrote:
what? no dinner first? what kind of a guy do you think i am?


Well hay I just wanted someplace to hide from the storm but if I gotta cook so I can spend the night, I can man up.

My girlfriend might get jealous though. >>
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#119 Jul 09 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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akelah wrote:
It wasn't a game you could pick up and master in a matter of minutes. There was always things to consider. Hate management, Elemental Wheel, Skill-Chain combos, Timing for Magic Bursts, what weapons worked against what mobs, what magic worked against what mobs.


There it is again - FFXI takes skill to play, not like those lesser MMOs.

There are some things in video games that require skill. Counting to two before casting a spell when you see someone do a skillchain isn't one of them. Casting your ancient magic spell when someone tells you they're about to do a skillchain isn't one either. Doing too much damage steals hate from the tank. Use hate mitigation abilities when possible if you're a DPS. Use your hate generation abilities if you're tank. Following a skillchain chart that someone else created isn't skill. Water > Fire > Ice > Wind > Earth > Thunder > Water, follow this when casting spells, and use common sense to understand that crabs are Water based and bunnies are Earth. Use piercing weapons on flying monsters.

There. I summed up the 'skill' involved in XI in a single paragraph, and I did it from memory, and despite not having played the game in over two years.

MMOs don't require 'skill'. They require patience and time investment, but when I think of video games as a whole, MMOs require the least 'skill' out of any of them, mainly because they allow players the most freedom. FFXI is no exception.

akelah wrote:
The reason I have defended the idea as much as I have, is yes, I would like to see something like this in the game, but also I really (despite the trolls, egos and dip-sh*ts) do not see this causing any kind of divide, continetal or other-wise. It's silly to even suggest it.


/shrug. Like Prinny said, I can easily imagine it happening to some degree. The subconscious bias is there - I've pointed it out in both dysc's and your posts on this page alone, which is why if S-E decides to go down this path, it needs to stay in the moghouse.

#120 Jul 09 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
/shrug. Like Prinny said, I can easily imagine it happening to some degree. The subconscious bias is there - I've pointed it out in both dysc's and your posts on this page alone, which is why if S-E decides to go down this path, it needs to stay in the moghouse.


Well, no, all you've pointed out is that there's a chance of it happening. Sure, there's a chance, but it's not a likely one and if those few people exist who will do that, they'll be a drop of **** in an ocean of other players, and nobody will take them seriously. My point is and always has been, the chances of anyone treating you differently for not having a trinket are ridiculously slim, because in the grand scheme of things, it's not important. FFXI players were originally elitist because of the perceived difficulty of the game, and dropping them into a game where their previous experience is meaningless, alongside thousands of other players, is going to strip out whatever bad feeling they had.

I'd stake my first million gil on the fact that you could go a year from a trinket being released without a single person treating you badly for not having one.
#121 Jul 09 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There. I summed up the 'skill' involved in XI in a single paragraph, and I did it from memory, and despite not having played the game in over two years.


Congratulations your long-term memory skill increased by 0.1.

But I never once used the word 'skill' I did not make the definition FFXI players > everyone else. I simply said it took time. You would not automatically log in and after the first five minutes know everything. I did not get my first magic burst in on time. I did not know any of the skill-chains (heck I didn't even know it could be done until my exp party explained it to me) and I only had a vague idea of which mobs were connected with which elements. I learned the hard way that chain nuking got me dead and it was after the first 20 levels I understood the benefits of cookies.

So quit putting words in my mouth and please, don't presume you know me. I don't care what level of interest you have in a game. I don't care how much you know about the said game. I ran a social LS with my closest friends and we often recruited new players and helped them understand things a little better. I lost count the amount of times I helped with the **** sub-job and airship pass quests. I never once considered myself better than anyone else because I had been playing longer and had sky and sea and done end-game.

I am guilty of using the word 'n00b' however. And that was when a lvl 75 Paladin decided to Raise a Party member with a Water Elemental in clear sight resulting in a wipe and that was only because at that level, you really should know better. At the time however there was a surge of 'RMT' accounts. Half the time you didn't know whether those people earned those levels or it was simply bought...

And...

Quote:
Who voted the entire idea taboo and said "No". Quote it please; if someone has, I'd even agree that that's going a bit too far.


Sec...

Quote:
Yogtheterrible
I think it's a bad idea as it would increase the animosity that already exists between the two groups.

Yogtheterrible
What I am talking about is one group of people not liking the other group simply because they don't have that useless trophy. We can see in the forum there is a huge rift between some FFXI players and those who haven't played FFXI, like other MMOs better, or have simply stopped playing FFXI and if you bring in an element like a trophy, however useless, for having played FFXI your are taking that rift from the forum into the game itself. It can very well segregate the two player groups.


Taboo because of possible (if highly unlikely) Bad feeling and segregation.

I understand your points and I respect you for taking the middle ground and accepting this as a potential problem. But in all likely-hood, the same bad feeling and "My Sword is bigger than your Sword" attitude will continue in most MMOs regardless. I will admit I've not seen it as bad anywhere else but in FFXI, but as Dysc has said, that was largely down to the fact that FFXI was extremely difficult and while normal people would take simple self-satisfaction from that important accomplishment, that big hit on a Weapon Skill or getting that certain something, you would get the egos looking down at those who hadn't done this and who didn't have that. I've said it myself in these boards, I do understand the situation and I acknowledge that in a game like FFXI, an item like this might cause that kind of behaviour to rear its ugly head.

But FFXIV is a new game, they've said themselves that they have taken measures to impliment solo play. They came under heavy critisism for having the 18 hour timer on one HLNM before it could be hurt. Again, mistakes they do not wish to repeat in FFXIV. Games do need to be more casual. For one casual games have more currency rewards and because it is easier to come by, you get less players seeking out RMTs who then go on to unbalance the economy.

WAR and LOTRO have excellent ways to report RMTs. WAR has an entire option for it and I have not seen any LOTRO buy-gold spam since I returned to it. These to me are both rather casual games because 1) I have access to equipment which is pretty decent for my level, and I didn't have to put in a whole lot of time to get it. 2) I'm rich. 3) I hit level cap in both games in a matter of months rather than FFXI year.

So yes I reffered this idea to a wearable item in WAR. But WAR doesn't have player housing and the trophey is only visible if you're zoomed in close to the character wearing it, other than that it has very little difference to the characters looks and of course there is no stats to it.

With FFXIV I imagined and hoped it could be something for the Mog-house. I loved my Mog-house, it done nothing but look pretty (like my lam! LOVED the lamp!) but again that's all I want from this. Something that looks nice and does nothing else.

I'm sure had WAR had a player housing from the start then the trophies would have been for that, but they don't. FFXIV however has been in development for five years or so now and unless they're changing the way we're able to change jobs also, I'm hoping the Mog Houses make a return. In which case, my trinket stays there.
#122 Jul 09 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Going back on topic, I doubt there will be a unique item for ffxi players because SE said themselves this is a new and separate game.

They will still provide content for ffxi while ffxiv is out. If ffxiv was ffxi-2 then I would expect a special in game item.


Instead expect to see a special item to those who preordered the game or beta tested it, probably vanity items that prove no use.
#123 Jul 09 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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akelah wrote:
So quit putting words in my mouth and please, don't presume you know me.


Lady, if I knew you, I'd pretend that I didn't. You've done nothing in this thread but demand that people accept your idea, and belittle them if they don't.

Here's some free career advice: Don't go into marketing.
#124 Jul 09 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
10 posts
SEforPrez wrote:
Lady, if I knew you, I'd pretend that I didn't. You've done nothing in this thread but demand that people accept your idea, and belittle them if they don't.


lol, the irony

Quote:
And to the OP, please, continue acting like anyone disagreeing with you is making fun of your child. It's precious, it really is.


Quote:
I dare say that a lot of people spend more time in XI than with their loved ones.


Quote:
You're comparing Final Fantasy XI to a deceased family member. It's time to step away from the video game for a bit.


Quote:
Here's some free career advice: Don't go into marketing.


I can totally see how you're not one for belittling people who disagree with you, no sir.
#125 Jul 09 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I've only skimmed through this thread, but wouldn't the assbags who "shun those not from FFXI" be in the minority and therefore the ones ultimately hurt by their elitism?

Oh, and don't forget:
hypothetical thread is hypothetical.
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#126 Jul 09 2009 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Bardalicious wrote:
I've only skimmed through this thread, but wouldn't the assbags who "shun those not from FFXI" be in the minority and therefore the ones ultimately hurt by their elitism?

Oh, and don't forget:
hypothetical thread is hypothetical.


In a word; yes.
#127 Jul 09 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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dysc wrote:

lol, the irony

I can totally see how you're not one for belittling people who disagree with you, no sir.



??? If you say so... You've been polite to me, and I've been nothing but the same in return. We have disagreeing opinions, but that type of thing happens all the time. Why the second third quote, by the way? Nothing to be offended by - it's true. The sky is blue, water is wet, women have secrets.

OP was making reasonable, respectful posts on the first page, and I responded in kind. But by the second page, when some people still didn't agree with her:


Akelah wrote:
Or that 'the community will suffer as a consequence', to those who would raise up in arms over something so small and meaningless, to something that someone might get just a tiny bit of pleasure from, I say grow up.


Akelah wrote:
I only read this part of your post and I really dont feel like wadding through the rest because you haven't got a f**king clue about what I meant.


Akelah wrote:
You dont need to go through it again, I'm already quite well aware how bad an example it was.


Akelah wrote:
Seriously, refussing us something like this because of this reason only, is like giving into a spoilt child.


Akelah wrote:
If you wanna stick up for the idiots who would take offence at this item being given out, then that's all well and good, but again, you're really no better than those who would kick off over it to start with, since your trying to keep them happy at the expense of everyone elses gaming pleasure.


If someone is going to get that butthurt and lash out about people disagreeing with their ideas on a public forum, you'd better believe I'm going to call them on it.

And as far as the response to ditx, I saw where he was coming from in a way, but that was a realllly iffy analogy, so I pointed it out. No offense meant to him.

OP, on the other hand...

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 9:17pm by SEforPrez
#128 Jul 09 2009 at 11:32 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
OP was making reasonable, respectful posts on the first page, and I responded in kind. But by the second page, when some people still didn't agree with her:


1) You don't think that people who would 'shun' others who they deem to be inferior because they don't have a tiny, understated bauble should be ignored like the spoilt children they are? Not sure what it's like where you come from, but when a kid like this starts screaming for that chocolate bar or toy, I certainly ignore them. Oh but wait, that's my 'Opinion' and it doesn't matter does it?

2) I am not going to waste time with people who assume they know exactly what I mean without reading a word I say and then clearly insult me.

3) Yes because the segragation of the Jews is completely relevent to this idea.

4) See point 1.

5) See point 1.

Quote:
If someone is going to get that butthurt and lash out about people disagreeing with their ideas on a public forum, you'd better believe I'm going to call them on it.


And if people actually understood what this idea is meant to be, then no I wouldn't. It's not because they disagree with me its because I do not see how:

1) ANY divide would appear if this was given out.

2) FFXIV is a new game yes, but already FFXI freinds list and accunts are going to be included into it. So the whole, New Game no connection argument is a bit redundant since WAR and DAoC were also completely different games, made by the same developer. Like-wise with FFXIV. Diablo II and Diablo III are also entirely new games, but those who purchased II have a chance to get into the III beta. Again another example of a reward system.

All I've done is answered those concerns with reasons, examples and evidence to support why it could happen and that it won't be such a big deal. The 'big deal' has only ever came about because certain people have made assumptions. The whole 'flashing hat' argument. I'm a bit sick of repeating myself to be honest. It's like beating my head against a brick wall. But many of those have also said, 'Mog-House only item please'. This doesn't bother me in the slightest and I have said this also.

But hey, you go ahead with the personal insults, mate since you can't exactly call me out on my logic here. I am a *****. I do insult those who I feel are a bit stupid or come into the argument half-cocked or with their entire ***** on display on their heads.


#129 Jul 10 2009 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
SE said themselves this is a new and separate game.


They also confirmed accounts and friend lists will be on the FFXIV servers. Mithra, Galka, Hume and Taru are once again the playable races and the old skins are being used. If they are recycling these ideas and concepts, I see no reason why an item like this won't make it into the game too.

You could argue that this is reward enough, and enough to have us reminded of the FFXI days but I'm a big fan of Player Housing and making it look nice. I'd just like something more that I can put on display there.

Quote:
Instead expect to see a special item to those who preordered the game or beta tested it, probably vanity items that prove no use.


I'm looking forward to that. I'll be Pre-ordering the special edition from which ever supplier offers the best mount (See AoC lol). I guess the point I'm making is if FFXIV release is like any other MMO currently released into the market these days, you're going to be spoilt for choice on the kinds of added extras included to sway your decision to buy. And like someone has already said prior, something like this aimed at previous/current subscribers of their long running game, it will help to smooth the transition from FFXI to FFXIV. Although they plan to keep FFXI running and those dedicated players will stay with it, with the arrival of FFXIV and it looking so similar to FFXI to start with, a lot of guys are going to make the switch which can ultimitely lead to 1) SE making some kind of subscriber offer in which it can sub to FFXI and FFXIV for a special price (WAR and DAoC do this) 2) FFXI eventually dies out.
#130 Jul 10 2009 at 2:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A big flashy flag given to jerks (whom we know exist) could make them bigger jerks.

See, I didn't use the word "WOULD", nor did I say anything about a rift, lost customers, or that it would be the end of the world. I didn't even say it would make ALL jerks bigger jerks, or that some elitist army would rally around this flag and decimate the n00b hordes.

But then polarization of issues is the entire reason we'll be nuking ourselves out of existence any day now, so.


Umm... Prinny? Y
eah you don't seem to be blowing the whole idea of a trival token to FFXI players out of proportion at all.

What with your page long posts.. oh and
Quote:
polarization of issues is the entire reason we'll be nuking ourselves out of existence any day now, so.


I totally see the addition of a FFXI tribute token as leading to nuclear war....

Well, too bad for you, the developers originally wanted to create a 'door to Eorzea' accessible from your FFXI moghouse. You really think they aren't going to show a little gratitude to the players who have effectively been the guinea pigs for their new MMO for the last 2 years?

Never mind. I don't want to be the cause of the extinction of mankind, lets just not have a non-gameplay item for FFXI's.

I am gonna make up T-shirts that say 'Prinny was right', and distribute them among the survivors of the holocaust after FFXIV is released.
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#131 Jul 10 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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192 posts
akelah wrote:
I understand your points and I respect you for taking the middle ground and accepting this as a potential problem. But in all likely-hood, the same bad feeling and "My Sword is bigger than your Sword" attitude will continue in most MMOs regardless. I will admit I've not seen it as bad anywhere else but in FFXI, but as Dysc has said, that was largely down to the fact that FFXI was extremely difficult and while normal people would take simple self-satisfaction from that important accomplishment, that big hit on a Weapon Skill or getting that certain something, you would get the egos looking down at those who hadn't done this and who didn't have that. I've said it myself in these boards, I do understand the situation and I acknowledge that in a game like FFXI, an item like this might cause that kind of behaviour to rear its ugly head.

But FFXIV is a new game, they've said themselves that they have taken measures to impliment solo play. They came under heavy critisism for having the 18 hour timer on one HLNM before it could be hurt. Again, mistakes they do not wish to repeat in FFXIV. Games do need to be more casual. For one casual games have more currency rewards and because it is easier to come by, you get less players seeking out RMTs who then go on to unbalance the economy.


Thanks a bunch for the thoughtful response, actually! Really, I don't think a visible item would create that big of a stir precisely for this reason, I was simply trying to stave what I viewed at the time as scathing insults lobbied against people simply for suggesting that some people might be ruder to new players if they can more easily tell who's a new player.

I do think, if FFXIV does nearly as well as it should, even IF people were elitist jerks about their flash-hat, it would still be practically nothing against the giant wave of newcomers. That is saying even if it -were- that hat, which I don't think it would be.

Shazaamemt wrote:
Umm... Prinny? Yeah you don't seem to be blowing the whole idea of a trival token to FFXI players out of proportion at all.

What with your page long posts.. oh and


I only tried to debate that the idea of "If you give a player group that hates another player group a way to discern between the two (this is not counting non-visible trinkets like Mog House items) they may, possibly, to some degree, by some chance be more hateful" is not stupid. But I know saying "Elitists exist and will use excuses to be bigger jerks" is outlandish.

I still apologize for writing that freakish tower of text though. Just kept going 'cuz it was fun to respond to people.

Shazaamemt wrote:
I totally see the addition of a FFXI tribute token as leading to nuclear war....


Why do you respond to things that you don't even remotely understand?

Do I have to explain what that "polarization" comment was even about? Really? Not to insult, but if you don't get it then just leave it be.

Hint: It had nothing to do with a FFXI trinket causing the end of the world.

Shazaamemt wrote:
Well, too bad for you, the developers originally wanted to create a 'door to Eorzea' accessible from your FFXI moghouse. You really think they aren't going to show a little gratitude to the players who have effectively been the guinea pigs for their new MMO for the last 2 years?


Too bad for me? But I think the trinket is mostly a good idea, especially if it's just a mog house thing. So...I'd be happy if they put it in like that.

I actually said that like a million times, so...yeah.
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The Other Castle
#132 Jul 10 2009 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Why do you respond to things that you don't even remotely understand?

Do I have to explain what that "polarization" comment was even about? Really? Not to insult, but if you don't get it then just leave it be.

Hint: It had nothing to do with a FFXI trinket causing the end of the world.


Duh, it had nothing to do with a FFXI trinket, but you still used it as an argument to show the division amongst players in a MMO. I was just trying to show the hyperbole... by using the same amount of hyperbole.

Things I don't remotely understand, gosh I must be a real moron... really, does anyone not understand the fact that the world inches closer to oblivion due to the advent of technology and it's increasing ease of accessibility to even the most radical factions?
Something so serious really doesn't lend itself to a discussion of divisiveness amongst MMO players though, and it was in irony that I quoted you.

Quote:


Too bad for me? But I think the trinket is mostly a good idea, especially if it's just a mog house thing. So...I'd be happy if they put it in like that.

I actually said that like a million times, so...yeah.


I must have missed the times you said that, because as to now, you have come across as the one person constantly rejecting the idea of any token item as a negative impact on FFXIV. You might have said it, but I just don't think those of us arguing with you recognized it.

I think most people only want it to be a token item with no impact on gameplay. If they think that bringing a relic weapon from FFXI into a brand new game is fair, then they are sorely mistaken.

But if you don't have a problem with a little token item from FFXI, then I think the thread is done. We are all in agreement.



BUT:
Quote:
For one casual games have more currency rewards and because it is easier to come by, you get less players seeking out RMTs who then go on to unbalance the economy.


Well, that is a discussion for a whole other thread. But RMT will exist as long as it is profitable for them to exist, and as long as people are willing to sacrifice dollars for gil/gold. It takes real world action to affect RMT. Let's just hope China's laws stick.


Edited, Jul 11th 2009 3:52am by Shazaamemt

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 3:56am by Shazaamemt
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#133 Jul 11 2009 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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ITT: Elitism against elitism.
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#134 Jul 11 2009 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Thanks a bunch for the thoughtful response, actually! Really, I don't think a visible item would create that big of a stir precisely for this reason, I was simply trying to stave what I viewed at the time as scathing insults lobbied against people simply for suggesting that some people might be ruder to new players if they can more easily tell who's a new player.


I do see your point and appologies if anything I said was to be considered as 'scathing'. Personally I was just speaking my mind because the assumptions about the item being a 'flashing hat' was a bit over the top. All it takes is one person to completely misunderstand the comparrison in the first post and decalre it possibly the single most terrible thing to ever be inplimented in the game (possibly).

The WAR item was nothing like a flashing hat and it was impossible to tell who had one unless you checked every person who walked by (there were a lot, trust me) not to mention, people were spoilt for choice on trophies and probably didn't were their Pendragons Knott.

The only flashing hats that were in that game were the items in the special edition where-by you were given limited edition heads. Destruction Humans were give a 'third eye'. Order Elves were given a kind of blind-fold. These were the only visible rewards to the player base but still there was no real divide. Just a bunch of people who wanted to pay more for those things and those that either didn't want to or couldn't. It really didn't matter.

Personally I hope we as future FFXIV subscribers are given access to such special offers! I'd really like now for the rest of the thread to be simply speculation on what they could possibly offer, not just FFXI vets, but the entire FFXIV community.
#135 Jul 11 2009 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Duh, it had nothing to do with a FFXI trinket, but you still used it as an argument to show the division amongst players in a MMO. I was just trying to show the hyperbole... by using the same amount of hyperbole.

Things I don't remotely understand, gosh I must be a real moron... really, does anyone not understand the fact that the world inches closer to oblivion due to the advent of technology and it's increasing ease of accessibility to even the most radical factions?
Something so serious really doesn't lend itself to a discussion of divisiveness amongst MMO players though, and it was in irony that I quoted you.


That's really still not related to what I was talking about either, actually. I wasn't actually talking about MMO players or divides among them.

Honestly it was just about arguments and the way people argue, as a sweeping statement, whether they're arguing about MMORPGs or international trade law. It's a human characteristic to "polarize" arguments, or make them distinctly two-sided as in "Us versus Them", entirely black and white, ignoring any and all gray areas. It's an incredibly crappy, harmful human characteristic that people are tended towards.

Shazaamemt wrote:
I must have missed the times you said that, because as to now, you have come across as the one person constantly rejecting the idea of any token item as a negative impact on FFXIV. You might have said it, but I just don't think those of us arguing with you recognized it.

I think most people only want it to be a token item with no impact on gameplay. If they think that bringing a relic weapon from FFXI into a brand new game is fair, then they are sorely mistaken.

But if you don't have a problem with a little token item from FFXI, then I think the thread is done. We are all in agreement.


It was actually in almost every post I made on page 1 or 2, a small statement along the lines of "But I don't think it's a bad idea, sounds cute, especially if it's a mog house trinket", and in the crazy text tower on p3 I even quoted all of those instances.

All I wanted to argue before was that the "flashy hat could make jerks bigger jerks" thought wasn't stupid. I never meant to say that a Mog House trinket was a bad idea or even that it would be that big of a deal if it was a flashy hat.

lolgaxe wrote:
ITT: Elitism against elitism.


If "Don't be a ****" is an elitist sentiment, then my custom 3L337Z license plate is already in the mail.

akelah wrote:

Personally I hope we as future FFXIV subscribers are given access to such special offers! I'd really like now for the rest of the thread to be simply speculation on what they could possibly offer, not just FFXI vets, but the entire FFXIV community.


I think part of a factual basis for the flashing hat is that I have seen visible wearables given out for things like beta tests and such before. So a Vana'Diel beret, tabbard, cape or cloak isn't exactly the craziest, most impossible idea.

If there's a trophy or "achievement" system, just having a note on your character that says "Inter-world pilgrim" could be cute. I think the most fitting mog house item would probably be a "Three Nations Banner" or, as some people have mentioned artifacts, something that looks like an ancient, dug up stone artifact with a mural or symbols on it showing off the harmony of the three nations.
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The Other Castle
#136 Jul 11 2009 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think the most fitting mog house item would probably be a "Three Nations Banner" or, as some people have mentioned artifacts, something that looks like an ancient, dug up stone artifact with a mural or symbols on it showing off the harmony of the three nations.


That was me ^^

What I think would be cute to go along with that, was if there was a mini-quest tied in with it. The quest could have a tiny reference to an existing FFXI story - though obviously much of the details or legend has been lost to time and so those who didn't play FFXI wouldn't be required to know of that quest or any of its back-ground. This trinket could actually be dug up by you, similar to the Chocobo Digging hobbie in FFXI.

It wouldn't be so bad an idea that everyone can get this either. For one it would just be for decor and the only added bonus would be to those who played FFXI, would be the knowledge about where it came from and why...

Play and Amazon done and amazing offer for AoC and I hope they do something similar for FFXIV. There was a choice of mounts in AoC, a Mamoth and a Rhino. I wonder (I doubt it but...its a hope lol) if something like this happens for FFXIV, we could have a choice between different coloured Chocobos! I'm dreaming I know, but it would be so novel!
#137 Jul 11 2009 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't care if they put this in or not, so long as the item wasn't of significant importance. I was a bit disgusted w/ SE when they implemented those Security Tokens for inventory space, and jokes of expansions for armor. Seriously, if they're going to try and outright sell items like that again, I cannot say that I will continue my patronage with this company.
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#138 Jul 11 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Could be worse, it could be Maple Story. Buy everything with real cash.

(I am gonna continue to rip on that game until I see anyone give a ****)
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