That's an amusing thing for someone to think. Has someone said something to that effect?
Thats an interesting question, gimmie a sec.
The thought seems to be that if the 'bonus' is something flamboyant and visible (like a big flashing hat) it will make it even easier for the elitists among the FFXI players to tell who is and isn't new and shun them accordingly.
Both quote are from you by the way.
Do you honestly think me saying the argument is about it being "easier to shun" is somehow equivalent to a "continental divide"? I mean, seriously?
...That's just...I.. Basic reading comprehension? Those quotes don't even match. Continental Divide =/= An increase in shunning capacity.
I find it ammusing that all you doom-sayers assume I was even suggesting the 'flashing hat'. I suggest you all go and read the first post and then take a look at exatly what I was making the comparision too.
Actually I came in, saw people talking about elitists, and then saw you insulting them needlessly and acting like that argument is completely groundless and just tried to point out the logic behind it and that it's a valid concern if it's a flashing hat
. I never said or assumed you wanted a flashing hat. I even said a few times that I agreed that a little mog house trinket would be cute.
If you wanna stick up for the idiots who would take offence at this item being given out, then that's all well and good, but again, you're really no better than those who would kick off over it to start with, since your trying to keep them happy at the expense of everyone elses gaming pleasure. Because that's what we play for. You know, its a game. Not a way of life.
If you want to so whole heartedly ignore the point that the "flashing hat" scenario (and NOT a mog house trinket scenario, at least as far as I'm concerned) may (debatable as it may be, but the fact remains that it's not being debated or considered, it's being outright dismissed) make some players be ruder to others than they already would be and make the game less fun for them
, all so you can have a cute little hat. I mean, if you want to (theoretically) make some players more miserable just for a slight increase in your "gaming pleasure", hey, whatever.
Please, also, for the love of god, stop putting up the pretense that people arguing in this fashion are trying to take your trinket away from you. Square Enix is not going to be actively deciding whether or not to include your Vana'Diel commemorative plate set in FFXIV based on this thread on a forum. We are just regular, no-name players posting for fun and speculation.
****, if there were an ACTUAL vote or poll on the FFXIV website, I'd probably vote "Why not?"!
You did prinny, in just about every post.
Seriously? I have? I'll go back and read here, but I'm pretty sure I kept saying things like
"(The thought behind the argument is:) It would make jerks bigger jerks," or
"(The thought behind the argument is:) It would make it easier for elitists to separate themselves from and be unreasonable towards new players," and never
"IT WOULD MAKE THE ELITISTS AND NEWBIES SPLIT TO DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE SERVER IN AN ALL OUT SOCIAL WAR".
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I guess SE should just go ahead and stop giving people useless ingame items for going to fanfest too. Right?
Seriously, there are a bunch of items in ffxi that a lot of us want, but we don't cry that the others shouldn't be able to get them just because we couldn't. There's no difference between that and what it's going to be like in ffxiv.
I understand your point, but the situations aren't exactly compatible. Were there FFXI players saying, "Man, I hate people that don't go to FanFest" before they got their trinkets for going to FanFest? Imagine an alternate universe where FanFest attendees hate the living **** out of non-attendees, and then give all the attendees in-game t-shirts that say, "I WENT TO FANFEST". That's more along the lines of the argument here. (Which is highly exaggerated! HIGHLY. I know it wouldn't be that bad, I'm just saying.)
It WILL cause a continental divide in the playerbase.
That kind of thinking has already been branded as extreme...
And people wonder why people like lolgaxe make comments like he did...
I'm pretty sure he was being very sarcastic.
Yeah, it's a completely logical concern, given how badly THIS EXACT SITUATION PLAYED OUT IN WAR.
Well, to be precise, no two situations are exactly the same. There are always differences, one of the larger ones here is the thought that some posters seem to be able to back up that FFXI's community is very drama compatible. Also, don't forget when I very earnestly asked:
Did a lot of Dark Age of Camelot players consider players from other MMOs/non-MMO players to be idiots and worthless "casuals"? I can't speak for that situation, but there's more than enough proof here that some FFXI fans think WoW players and "casual" gamers second in stupidity only to single celled organisms. Which is where this whole issue comes from.
I was actually asking. As in expecting an answer with less yelling so we could talk like regular people.
You went on in your post to say that there was a lot of forum whining about non-DAoC players on those forums but then the community worked out in the end. Well, there are some fundamental differences in the FFXI/FFXIV community, so the argument could still be made, but even so: okay. So we have a similar incident wherein things didn't turn out so bad (according to you). That's a valid piece of evidence. It actually matches with what I have said before
: it would probably actually not be that big of a deal. But the thought, the inkling of of an idea, that there are some
players who are jerks and would take advantage of "did play FFXI" flags is still not 100% thwarted.
Also, again, was the n00b hating nearly as bad on DAoC as it is now with the FFXI playerbase? You said it was annoying, but you haven't qualified if it was to this degree. And still: even given that, we're talking different types of players and a different playerbase here.
Everyone who'd ever played DAoC (trial accounts, subbed acounts, whatever) in its entire history up to the date the Knots were sent out, were sent a code to their email to redeem into a knot. The game account wasn't involved in any way, simply the email address that'd been used to register for the game. As I previously stated, that's a lot of people, most of whom moved to WAR.
Okay, so they did it differently in WAR. I was assuming for FFXIV they would use account information, but in WAR they actually used email addresses instead. My...sincerest apologies? The argument I'm supporting, half devil's-advocate style, that "there are jerks, this may make them bigger jerks" is deflated?
Besides, even if WAR did it that way, I'm not even convinced FFXIV would. Square's customer support and ease of access isn't exactly legendary here.
...And yet, these wild, roaming elitists would still view people who only played FFXI for a month or two as smarter than your average WoW player because they still think playing FFXI requires some nigh infinite amount of intelligence compared to WoW or any other game. People who "only" got one character to 75 still had to be "smart enough" to play FFXI.
Of course the argument's silly, there's no real reason NOT to give this trinket out. I've tried to see your point...
Then why are your posts repeatedly worded as "You're an idiot, look how wrong you are!!" and never "Really, I just don't agree. I don't think it would turn out that way" like a reasonable person? There have been numerous posts so far about how completely stupid
and entirely impossible
it is that some players would dare
use a hat that denotes who did and didn't play super-smart-game-FFXI as a means to help some jerks better target their jerkdom.
I mean, you can disagree, sure, fine, that's why we're here. But does that really
sound like the language of someone who's really considered the counter-point and is formulating a thoughtful reply?
[quote=dysc]You may think it's the end of the world (you've made that quite clear at least)...[/quote]
Actually, I've made it incredibly clear that I don't
think that, but I'll come back to that in a bit.
[quote=dysc]...but I've set to see a real reason WHY, other than 'FF Players used to hate everyone else, the logical step forwards from this is to ostracise everyone who didn't play FFXI!' which is particularly asinine because I think the MMO community as a whole has grown up a lot since MMOs became big. The ramblings of forum-goers rarely have any effect on anything, because forums are simply a place where you can whine anonymously about whatever takes your fancy.[/quote]
FFXI players still
hate everyone else. The evidence for this is right in front of your face on these forums, as a number of us have pointed out. We're not talking about some distant past wherein we assume that old bugaboos are coming out of the woodwork to torment the new players coming to FFXIV, the arguments here are about actual opinions that are held right now by people we are regularly communicating with.
I have to say I don't quite agree with the idea that MMO communities have "grown up" to the point that this is a complete non-concern anyway. If they've done so, then why are there so many people around this area (and elsewhere in the FFXI community) already being flaming elitists as we speak? And yes, you make a good point that forums are usually populated by the vocal minority. For one, I think that's another good reason for why it probably wouldn't be that
big of a deal, but for another, we're not just talking a "few" people here. To some degree, the thoughts of forum goers represent a percentage of all players, and a lot of posters in the FFXI/FFXIV stratosphere are pretty **** elitist
. This isn't just a handful of posters we're talking about here.
Also, in case you haven't been paying attention to gaming as a whole
, the idea that "casual" gamers are dumb as dirt is not an isolated event
. You don't have to spend five minutes at any "hardcore" gaming watering hole to find that anti-"casual" elitism is incredibly widespread
. The evidence for its existence is million-fold, so it's hardly like there's "no proof" that there many people out there that already have very elitist attitudes toward "casual" and non-gamers, and it's hardly unreasonable to think that a number of FFXI players (a number, not all) have similar thoughts.
[quote=dysc]Yes, a single level 75, no merits and no set gear beyond AF1 is totally elite. Everyone who hasn't acheived this should throw themselves in a river so there's more oxygen left for me. Like I said, I see no reason a small trinket shouldn't be offered to ex-FFXI players, because it worked in WAR and like the other guy said, works with any fan-event or the like. There's a difference between being proud of a small customer loyalty reward and ostracising others because they don't have it, and that's the only 'continental divide' here. Realistically, nobody is going to think differently of anyone because they don't have the trinket, WAR shows us this.[/quote]
Again: the "elitism" we're talking about is the opinion that a FFXI player is better than non-FFXI-players because these elitists think that FFXI takes much more intelligence and skill. How awesome and end-game you are does not matter in this discussion. And might I note the original quote of that was because you made a comment that very clearly said, "In this argument we have FFXI players that are smart
and just want a trinket, and non-FFXI players who are dumb
and just whining":
[quote=dysc]This entire argument seems like its two sides are 1: FF players who'd like some small measure of their past enjoyment to take with them, and 2: Crybabies who think that a small item given to ex-FFXI players means they won't be allowed to exist.[/quote]
You could look up elitist in the dictionary and you just might find that quote in the sidebar. That is why I implied that you are "the elite", because you basically made a statement implying that FFXI players ARE "the elite". It has nothing to do with your actual achievements in FFXI, as does the idea of elitism as a whole.
And (AGAIN) WAR is different. The repeated ad nauseum argument here is that there is a chance that some people would be jerks
. Saying "In this different environment I never met any jerks related to this trinket!" doesn't exactly disprove much considering:
1) This argument is about a different game so the chances of this happening are also different, though evidence about a similar game is relevant
2) There's a very good chance that you have not met every single player
to ever have a Pendragon's Knot in WAR, therefor you can't exactly claim that these alleged people don't exist
3) The argument is (AGAIN) about a possibility, and a percentile of people. NOT about everyone turning mean and elitist, NOT about creating a huge divide between players, and NOT about millions of players being in an uproar. We're talking about some
jerks just being bigger
[quote=lolgaxe]You have to admit, its pretty ridiculous that people think that "elitists" are going to scorn those that wouldn't be able to get whatever was offered.[/quote]
By what logic is the statement,
"In a situation wherein group A of players hates group B, giving them a big shiny flag that says 'I'm in Group A!' would cause some
of that group to be even ruder to group B than they would have because they can more easily discern the divide"
Highly unreasonable, and yet the statement,
"In a situation wherein group A of players hates group B, giving them a big shiny flag that says 'I'm in Group A!' would never
effect whatsoever on any players actions toward another"
Is considered perfectly sensible and not harmful in its absolutism.
Don't even get me wrong, the idea that the backlash and elitism slightly encouraged by it probably wouldn't have any sort of noticeable effect or be any sort of big deal, I'm totally behind that, it makes sense
. But that's a different statement from "This would have no effect whatsoever, and the idea that it might have any effect at all is ridiculous". So
going back a step.
[quote=dysc]You may think it's the end of the world (you've made that quite clear at least)...[/quote]
Where does this even come from? I suppose from a tight-clenched grip around and love of issue polarization, which is really very common? That when someone disagrees with you it's time to demonize them to the maximum and make as many assumptions as possible?
Anyway, no. Considering you're speaking about me directly, I can say you are completely and utterly wrong and with evidence to prove it:
[quote=PrinnyFlute, Page 1]...I'm not 100% against the idea, but...
But I also don't think it's as huge a deal as all that sounds, anyway. People like that will be gunning for non-FFXI players with or without their flashy hats. The actual idea of a little memento is kind of adorable, all that aside, and it's not actually that hard of a thing to pull off.[/quote]
[quote=PrinnyFlute, Page 2]...I don't think it's all that bad, and asses will be asses regardless. A little flag for your player residence would be cute. But there's something of a valid concern behind the thought.[/quote]
[quote=PrinnyFlute, Page 2]The idea is that if it is universally visible it would make some
people who do have it bigger jerks than they already are. The thought that it would make FFXI players who already hate non-FFXI players hate them more and make it easier for them to do so.
Nobody's talking about being jealous or wanting the item. It's all about how it would make the elitists with this item act. I'm not even entirely against the idea of getting some cute trinket. Just saying, since there seems to be a lot of confusion on the points here.
[quote=PrinnyFlute, Page 2]
Well, yes. That's a valid thought, and kind of my stance on it. It'd probably honestly be nothing more than a cute, harmless trinket, especially if it's non-visible, and I think if SE thinks about the idea they'll probably go ahead with it, since they'll already be doing friends lists and like to dish out the fan service anyway...[/quote]
I know how much fun it is to turn someone into your personal demon for the sake of conversation, but I haven't exactly been living it up in some fantasy world where I hate this damned trinket because it will cause all FFXI players to chase all n00bs out of FFXIV. Sorry to disappoint, ruin your fun, etc.
Now that I've spent way too long ramming my head against a wall for fun (trust me, I'm not doing this for the "cause". I know people aren't exactly going to start talking all of a sudden) I'll go do something else to amuse myself. *Edit:
So I broke my ability to use quotes and wrote a *&%$ing novella. Huzzah. And crap. I'd use spoiler tags to fold this up for the sake of sanity, but apparently they just black it all out. Sorry. Just sorry. Last edited, Jul 9th 2009 12:22pm by PrinnyFlute Edited, Jul 9th 2009 12:24pm by PrinnyFlute