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XIV Needs More Tanks!Follow

#1 Jun 27 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Amid the masses of melee and healers in FFXI, the game suffers a serious lack of jobs that were able to tank and do it well. Paladin remains the only job sincerely designed with this position in mind at all levels and most situations.
On the whole, even the best tanking Ninjas, (and even those geared in a damage-dealer build), found it extremely costly in both the ways of gil and nerve damage to squeeze every ounce of enmity they could out of the job to force it to do things it just wasn't made to do.

The release of Treasures of Aht Urghan seemed to be Squeenix's answer to anyone attempting to play NIN as tank OR damage-dealer, given both the Colibri and Heraldic Imp's high resistance to magic attack, in which the Ninja's Ni elemental wheel, (50% of their DoT), is rendered ineffective and inefficient. While some updates nerfed DoT of various melee jobs, ToAU gimped NIN altogether.

What I want to see in FFXIV are jobs that aren't useless where others prosper in a gap as large as 20 levels. Whatever in XIV will determine job advancement and progression, (EXP points, abilities and skills, etc.), all job classes should be designed with the dynamics of necessity and effectiveness at all levels in classic situations. Why should a Beastmaster or Black Mage be forced to solo or manaburn their levels? Because they can?, or because they have been given little choice?
#2 Jun 27 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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Or just remove the tank problem altogether by not making it a role at all.

If every DD can tank, it won't be a problem.
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#3 Jun 27 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hey, while we're at it, we can toss away all that stuff about team dynamics too.
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#4 Jun 27 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Default
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Hey, while we're at it, we can toss away all that stuff about team dynamics too.


ya and let also change the name of Final Fantasy XIV to.

Final World War of Fantasy Craft XIV

^_^
#5Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 5:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) /nin already did it to DD's in XI, I'd like to see it get expanded to not just include merit levels though (and not make it as broken as utsusemi is). Nothing better than not needing to look for pld or nin every time I want to do something.
#6 Jun 27 2009 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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It's not the lack of tank classes, it's that not many people want to play them. If there were 10 tank classes and 2 DD classes, there's still be no tanks, just a lot of damage dealers with the same job. Why would all the people who currently want to play DRK, SAM, DRG, WAR, MNK etc switch to a tanking job just because there's more of them?
#7 Jun 27 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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It's not the lack of tank classes, it's that not many people want to play them. If there were 10 tank classes and 2 DD classes, there's still be no tanks, just a lot of damage dealers with the same job. Why would all the people who currently want to play DRK, SAM, DRG, WAR, MNK etc switch to a tanking job just because there's more of them?


This is not true, the lack of tank jobs is a major factor in the shortage. I remember when tanks were not that hard to find, the problem after a while is with only 2 tank jobs, the people that wanted to play has already played them. Those two jobs was very different from each other, either you liked blink tanking or you liked paladin, and once you leveled them, there were no other options. If there was 10 tank jobs and 2 dd, there would be a ton of tanks, to imply that nobody likes playing tank jobs is not 100% true. There would be more DD (if only had 2 dd jobs), then tanks (if only had 2 tank jobs) that is true, but if there was 10 tank jobs and 2 dd there would be tons of tanks. They would have to add different styles of tanking (since adding more tank jobs that does it the same exact way is pointless), kinda like there are so many styles and ways to dd. If they did this there would be a lot of tanks.
#8 Jun 27 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not the lack of tank classes, it's that not many people want to play them. If there were 10 tank classes and 2 DD classes, there's still be no tanks, just a lot of damage dealers with the same job. Why would all the people who currently want to play DRK, SAM, DRG, WAR, MNK etc switch to a tanking job just because there's more of them?


Yes, and if we really want to fix the problem, something has to be sacrificed.

Either all jobs will be as diverse as possible and there will be lack of tanks/healers/support/dd, or there will be homogenization but finding jobs won't be a problem. Which aspect is more important? I'd side with the latter, since making a party was such a pain in the *** sometimes.
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#9 Jun 27 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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katmandu wrote:
It's not the lack of tank classes, it's that not many people want to play them. If there were 10 tank classes and 2 DD classes, there's still be no tanks, just a lot of damage dealers with the same job.


This. Take a look at other MMOs with more tanking options either through variety of classes or hybrid options of the same class and there's still a tank/healer imbalance relative to damage roles. Tanking (and healing) only appeal to certain people, and the ones who don't enjoy it tend to never get any good at it. Damage is fun. Big numbers and dead things are cool. Tanks and healers tend to sacrifice that end of things for the other side of the party dynamic, and not everyone is willing to make that sacrifice. I played MMOs for 5 years before I suddenly realized that tanking is what I really enjoy. It would be nice if FFXIV included options for some sort of hybrid play so that I'm not heavily penalized in solo play, but I know a lot of people who have tried tanking and just find it's too much "pressure".
#10 Jun 27 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
This is not true, the lack of tank jobs is a major factor in the shortage.

It does contribute a lot.

While it's difficult to tell how many players are actually tanking due to specs, 48% of WoW players are playing tankable classes. 38% are playing classes that can heal. 4 out of the 10 classes in WoW can tank and 4 out of the 10 classes in WoW can heal. This goes a long ways towards ensuring an ample amount of tanks and healers.

I'm don't know the current state of FFXI, but when I played paladin and nin were the only viable tanks while leveling. I don't know how endgame is, but I hear it's even more limited. There are 20 classes in FFXI and only 2 can reasonably tank. That goes a long way towards limiting the availability of tanks.
#11 Jun 27 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Default
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Personally, I'd like to see two more Tank classes in FFXIV, wonder if it will happen. I enjoyed playing PLD very much and was very involved end game with that job. It would be fun to try another job that specializes in the same duty: "Tank"

Who knows..
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#12 Jun 27 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
HocusP wrote:
This is not true, the lack of tank jobs is a major factor in the shortage.

It does contribute a lot.

While it's difficult to tell how many players are actually tanking due to specs
, 48% of WoW players are playing tankable classes


I can guarantee you that 10% of that 48% are actually tanking or healing spec. (With the possible exception of Druid)

Look guys, this isn't new. There will always be more people who want to Deal Damage than Heal or Tank. This is not going to change. It's been this way in MMOs since the very beginning.

The lower number of tank jobs has very little to do with the shortage. Adding more tanking jobs will do little to nothing, because it's just the same people who love Tanking and Healing who level them.

It's pointless to have an unreasonable ratio of Tank classes to DD.

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 7:49pm by Kirbster
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#13 Jun 27 2009 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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ya and let also change the name of Final Fantasy XIV to.

Final World War of Fantasy Craft XIV



Hey, tanks are very important in WoW. For solo questing obviously not, but for instances and raids, which comprise a lot of the game, especially endgame, tanks, healers, and groups are needed.


It's not the lack of tank classes, it's that not many people want to play them. If there were 10 tank classes and 2 DD classes, there's still be no tanks, just a lot of damage dealers with the same job. Why would all the people who currently want to play DRK, SAM, DRG, WAR, MNK etc switch to a tanking job just because there's more of them?

Yes and no. Itès true that tanking is not for everyone, and in games where there are more tanks there are still shortages sometimes. But having more tanking classes does help. In FFXI, once you level PLD and NIN, you canèt really tank anymore, even if you want to. Also, PLD and NIN each play differently. I liked my PLD, but I did not look forward to trying NIN. Having different styles of tanking can draw in different people, the same way some prefer how DRG plays and others prefer SAM or BLM or THF. More viable tanks would be helpful.
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#14 Jun 27 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Also, PLD and NIN each play differently. I liked my PLD, but I did not look forward to trying NIN. Having different styles of tanking can draw in different people, the same way some prefer how DRG plays and others prefer SAM or BLM or THF. More viable tanks would be helpful.

exactly. i got my nin to 75 ridiculously fast in 05 because i loved the way the job played. i've been playing since early 04 on and off and my pld is still stuck at 61, give versatility to jobs instead of just saying 'NO people just want to hit big numbers!' or else you'll just be stuck in the same probs XI has had with tanks.
#15 Jun 27 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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On the whole, even the best tanking Ninjas, (and even those geared in a damage-dealer build), found it extremely costly in both the ways of gil and nerve damage to squeeze every ounce of enmity they could out of the job to force it to do things it just wasn't made to do.

The release of Treasures of Aht Urghan seemed to be Squeenix's answer to anyone attempting to play NIN as tank OR damage-dealer, given both the Colibri and Heraldic Imp's high resistance to magic attack, in which the Ninja's Ni elemental wheel, (50% of their DoT), is rendered ineffective and inefficient. While some updates nerfed DoT of various melee jobs, ToAU gimped NIN altogether.


This is where you were wrong. You've obviously got little to no experience playing Ninja let alone any tank job. Turtle Paladin took the hit in ToA because melee damage was much more effective than any other form of hate control. Melee build PLD & NIN were enjoying the awesome that is ToA.


The devs are showing support for solo play, the last thing they need to do now is allow any punk DD to replace a tank job in party play.
#16 Jun 27 2009 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
I can guarantee you that 10% of that 48% are actually tanking or healing spec. (With the possible exception of Druid)

No you can't. Don't make up numbers and expect to be taken seriously. When you find a source that supports your claim, then you get back to me on that.

The numbers I've posted shown that you can get a significant number of players to play tanks and heals by providing more classes with that can fill those roles.
Kirbster wrote:
Look guys, this isn't new. There will always be more people who want to Deal Damage than Heal or Tank. This is not going to change. It's been this way in MMOs since the very beginning.

You just don't get it. It's not about magically making everyone want to heal and tank. It's about increasing the number of players who do. You'll never be able to make everyone want to tank, but you can make more people want to tank.
Kirbster wrote:
The lower number of tank jobs has very little to do with the shortage. Adding more tanking jobs will do little to nothing

Wrong. You have yet to offer any support for this other than your own personal speculation. Even common sense says that if you make more tanking classes then you'll get more tanks.

Post some proof of your point or else you're just being chatty.
Kirbster wrote:
It's pointless to have an unreasonable ratio of Tank classes to DD.

There is nothing unreasonable about it. You are working off the ridiculous assumption that there has to be a 5:1 or more ratio of DD to tanks. There doesn't. There is no reason a game can't have a 1:1 ratio of tanks to DD if the developers wanted it to.
#17 Jun 27 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirbster, have you ever even played a "Tank" Job/Class? If so..what level and what job? Just curious, because the way you're talking is making me think that you've never even played a Tank Job.
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#18 Jun 27 2009 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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The numbers I've posted shown that you can get a significant number of players to play tanks and heals by providing more classes with that can fill those roles.


Yeah, healer & tank classes with dps spec... changes nothing

Most players want to deal damage, he isn't wrong about that.

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Even common sense says that if you make more tanking classes then you'll get more tanks.


Those who wouldn't play tank before with 2 classes available, why would they play it with 3 classes available?

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#19 Jun 27 2009 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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More classes won't solve the fundamental problem. People have to want to tank. If you only have 10% of the playerbase who wants to tank, having 6 jobs is not going to increase that.

Rather, I want a more active tanking style akin to NIN. For example, PLD could have their shield block on a timing ability like NIN. A successful 'cast' would give you a 50% (Number subject to balance) chance to block the next 3 attacks. Once those attacks are over, you are fatigued, and can't block and you would have to re-cast. Essentially, a more active skill based tanking style, rather than sitting there getting pounded on and hitting macro one, two, three over and over with no real thought.

You can have Shield Block I, II, III, etc. I is basic, II is say, 10% increased chance to block, but longer cast time and lasts 4 attacks, etc. This means you have to think about which style you are going to use per mob, so you don't get interrupted.

Same for NIN, but change Utsu to a chance to negate damage. Have passives that increase this chance, so if there happens to be a SJ system (Which I doubt), it's quite a poor defensive choice. (For example, you would have 3 shadows with a 20% chance to absorb each attack (SJ)). (Main Job)So, by end-game you would have say, 75% chance to absorb attack with your shadows (All numbers subject to balance). Having anything 100% negate damage itself is inherently imbalanced (That is so readily usable).

If you want to get creative you can add in a third tank if you want, something either resembling SAM or DNC. However, there's no point in having more than 3 or 4 at most tank jobs. There are only so many ways you can tank, and only so many people who actually want to tank.

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:30pm by Perspicacity

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:31pm by Perspicacity
#20 Jun 27 2009 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have 'proof' of my theory, but here it is anyway. I believe that in FFXIV, tanks won't be so dissimilar from DD's. I think PLD and NIN classes were held back because of balance issues. So in FFXIV, all jobs will tank to a degree. Of course PLD will continue to be the premiere tank, but that won't hold back their DD while tanking either. Essentially I think all DD jobs will have better defenses. For example, WAR might have counter/blocking which is similar to shield mastery now. Say SAM might be a better 'tank' against demons, but DRK would fair better against 'arcane'. DD jobs in FFXI aren't very involved now consisting of mashing macros and little else. I also think SE noticed how certain jobs like NIN, MNK, and THF got the shaft for a lot of endgame stuff due to unbalanced weapon damage.

In summary, PLD's and all melee front line jobs will hold hate via damage and job abilities. We won't have Utsusemi as a crutch to fall back on either. So my theory is based on all of those factors.
#21 Jun 27 2009 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Those who wouldn't play tank before with 2 classes available, why would they play it with 3 classes available?
if it plays differently than a job with high def and a healing factor versus a blink tank, maybe it'll attract players not interested in playing those other two jobs. idk about you, but in my linkshell, most of the DDs had at least one of the two tank classes at either 75 or pretty **** close to it simply because they liked variety in the game but only popped them out for endgame stuff or linkshell pts if needed since they got the jobs to 75 and pretty much moved on. they were usually working on missions, quests or leveling other jobs, and guess what the majority of those other jobs in ffxi were? DDs

I'm sure SE can think of ways to make another tank class that's fun to play and isn't similar to the one's we have now.
#22 Jun 27 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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Those who wouldn't play tank before with 2 classes available, why would they play it with 3 classes available?


Those of us who maxed PLD & NIN but still wanted to tank, what do you think we would do with a third tank job?
#23 Jun 27 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Those who wouldn't play tank before with 2 classes available, why would they play it with 3 classes available?


Because with more options of tanking, comes more styles to tank. They will not add a new tank job that tanks the exact same way another job does, so this would attract more people. Kind of like no DD class is exactly like another, the styles are different, same would go for tanks which would in return draw more people to a different style of tanking. The people that liked paladin would be paladin, the people that liked ninja would be ninja, and the people that liked the new styles of tanking, would be the new jobs. This would attract a wave of new players to tanking, and this would also give the tanks another tanking job to level that they would find interesting after they are done with their first one.


Quote:
Look guys, this isn't new. There will always be more people who want to Deal Damage than Heal or Tank. This is not going to change. It's been this way in MMOs since the very beginning.


This is true to a very little point, more people like to dd then heal/tank. That being said, this doesn't mean there have to be a shortage either. More people can play DD, then heal and tank and there could still be no shortage of tanks and healers at all. Both could coexist, and this is where more options come in. You are stuck on thinking since there will be more dd, then it automatically means there "has" to be a shortage of tank/healers to go with that. That is not true, you need more dd then tank/healers anyway, so with more options, there would be more tanks and healers. You could still have more DD, but the numbers would be closer with more options resulting in no shortage of anything.


Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:37pm by HocusP
#24 Jun 27 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Those of us who maxed PLD & NIN but still wanted to tank, what do you think we would do with a third tank job?


You're already part of the small % of players who want to play tank.. we'd rather want to increase the amount of people who want to tank?
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#25 Jun 27 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Jobangles wrote:
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Those who wouldn't play tank before with 2 classes available, why would they play it with 3 classes available?


Those of us who maxed PLD & NIN but still wanted to tank, what do you think we would do with a third tank job?


You can't magically find a way around fundamental tanking styles. In order to tank you have to mitigate damage. There are only two ways. Absorb damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage entirely.

If you can think of a way to mitigate damage that is something fundamentally, different than those two, please try I assure you, you can't. A third or fourth job, will be using those two ways of mitigating damage, so essentially it is the same mechanics, but with a 'different name, or look'.

Having more jobs doesn't solve the problem at all. Everyone is looking at this entirely wrong. You want to entice people to want to tank. Many don't because, it's very repetetive and if you aren't seeing the large damage numbers, they're not going to want to tank. So, how do you fix this? Create a system where by the tanking is more active and skill-based (See: Utsu timing). This keeps the player's attention and makes them feel like they can increase their skill ever more, not be stagnant hitting the same macros over and over like say PLD.
#26 Jun 27 2009 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Because with more options of tanking, comes more styles to tank. They will not add a new tank job that tanks the exact same way another job does, this would extract more people. Kind of like no DD class is exactly like another, the styles are different, same would go for tanks which would in return draw more people to a different style of tanking.


They're pretty much the same already, heh. Weapon type is different, weapon skills are different, but other than that they're pretty much identical with slight variations. DRK can cast few spells, SAM gets tp faster, MNK attacks fast.. but is there really a need to have a different job for each of these things? Not really.
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#27 Jun 27 2009 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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In summary, PLD's and all melee front line jobs will hold hate via damage and job abilities. We won't have Utsusemi as a crutch to fall back on either. So my theory is based on all of those factors.


This is exactly what I think, too.
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#28 Jun 27 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
This is not true, the lack of tank jobs is a major factor in the shortage.s), kinda like there are so many styles and ways to dd. If they did this there would be a lot of tanks.

That is kinda true.

I'm a tank at heart, but I'd definitely rather tank as a WAR or SAM as a more fighting oriented tank, instead of a paladin. I've never been a fan of paladins, all the way back to DnD.
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#29 Jun 27 2009 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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You can't magically find a way around fundamental tanking styles. In order to tank you have to mitigate damage. There are only two ways. Absorb damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage entirely.


it doesn't have to mitigate damage differently to play differently. (just shooting off the top of my head here) there could be a tanking job based on parrying, counters, blocking, using abilities/skills based on your hp, enemy's hp etc sort of like a fencer or something (or maybe what SE was trying to make SAM at first, idk). it sounds pretty similar to other jobs, but if the abilities play out differently than pld, maybe more people would be interested in playing that than constantly checking their hp and mp pools.

it doesn't have to be all about taking hits, there are other ways to go about it.
#30 Jun 27 2009 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
Allegory wrote:
HocusP wrote:
This is not true, the lack of tank jobs is a major factor in the shortage.

It does contribute a lot.

While it's difficult to tell how many players are actually tanking due to specs
, 48% of WoW players are playing tankable classes


I can guarantee you that 10% of that 48% are actually tanking or healing spec. (With the possible exception of Druid)

Sorry Kirbster, I love ya man, but you are very very wrong.

It is a well known problem in the WoW playerbase that with the tanking overhaul last year, combined with the 4th tanking class, that there is a very big surplus of tanks. So much so, that tanks are now having massive struggles to find a spot to be allowed to tank.

Tanks are currently the PUP of WoW

Roughly 20-30% of the ENTIRE PvE playerbase is currently specced for tanking and wants to tank (And in general, you only need 8% tanks for WoW's game mechanics). At any time, you can go into the Looking For Group tool, and see 8-10 tanks, and few if any damage dealers or healers.

It's a very very big problem. Blizzard severely overcompensated in their attempt to make tanking more mainstream desirable to solve the tanking shortage.

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:50pm by Karelyn

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:52pm by Karelyn

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:54pm by Karelyn
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#31Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 7:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You think it's enough to make a new tank job that mitigates damage by parrying opposed to guarding? Same thing with different name. People are easy to fool it seems.
#32 Jun 27 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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BarrenNinja wrote:
Quote:
You can't magically find a way around fundamental tanking styles. In order to tank you have to mitigate damage. There are only two ways. Absorb damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage entirely.


it doesn't have to mitigate damage differently to play differently. (just shooting off the top of my head here) there could be a tanking job based on parrying, counters, blocking, using abilities/skills based on your hp, enemy's hp etc sort of like a fencer or something (or maybe what SE was trying to make SAM at first, idk). it sounds pretty similar to other jobs, but if the abilities play out differently than pld, maybe more people would be interested in playing that than constantly checking their hp and mp pools.

it doesn't have to be all about taking hits, there are other ways to go about it.


Again, you prove my point. You either absorb damage from your HP and heal it back, or you negate the damage entirely. That is exactly the only two styles you proposed and yet, you think having more jobs, essentially playing the same way will solve anything. You need to expand your thinking and think about ways to have the only two available mechanics play in a way that attracts people.

This obsession with more jobs! More jobs! Needs to go. Having more jobs waters down each job further. Secondly, it creates a lot of balance issues.

So, one job can just sit there and base all their tanking on passive parrying? Sounds **** boring to me, and overpowered. The only reason NIN main isn't even more absurdly good at tanking is because Utsu is an active ability and not passive. Now imagine negating damage like that and having it as a passive!

Take a step back for a second and really evaluate and analyze what you are thinking and proposing. Throw all bias about more jobs out the window. The assumption that more jobs, will mean more players is fundamentally flawed.
#33 Jun 27 2009 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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It is a well known problem in the WoW playerbase that with the tanking overhaul last year


What was changed?
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#34 Jun 27 2009 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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You think it's enough to make a new tank job that mitigates damage by parrying opposed to guarding? Same thing with different name. People are easy to fool it seems.
what's the difference between that and DDs based on tp spikes versus constant DoT? they're both sitting there swinging big *** weapons at some oversized monster, hitting ja/ws/gearswap macros. it doesn't matter if the class handles the situation in a similar style as another as long as its played differently enough to get different players interested in tanking, which SE needs.
#35 Jun 27 2009 at 8:00 PM Rating: Default
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what's the difference between that and DDs based on tp spikes versus constant DoT? they're both sitting there swinging big *** weapons at some oversized monster, hitting ja/ws/gearswap macros. it doesn't matter if the class handles the situation in a similar style as another as long as its played differently enough to get different players interested in tanking, which SE needs.


Yes, that's exactly it. There's too many DD jobs that don't differ enough from each other now (like I said earlier), making the tank situation same won't exactly improve it.

But how do you make it play differently enough?

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 4:01am by Hyanmen
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#36 Jun 27 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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a tanking job based on parrying, counters, blocking, using abilities/skills based on your hp, enemy's hp etc


You think it's enough to make a new tank job that mitigates damage by parrying opposed to guarding? Same thing with different name. People are easy to fool it seems.

Why does the difference have to be in the way you mitigate? Why can't it be in the way you fight?

One tank fights with weapons, another fights with magic spells.

Bam, you now have a new tanking type!

It's not that hard to figure out, just look at the DD jobs in the game already. What is different between them? Now add some of those differences to different tank classes. Now you have several tanking classes that fight differently, that would attract some more players to a tanking class.
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#37 Jun 27 2009 at 8:04 PM Rating: Default
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You're already part of the small % of players who want to play tank.. we'd rather want to increase the amount of people who want to tank?


No? There's nothing wrong with the number of people who want to tank, the issue was that after so many years we just all maxed out at 75. And it's a **** of a lot harder to get an average DD player interested in tanking than it is to get us tank players to level another tank job.

Don't forget that if you change tanking too much you'll lose some of us tanks who do enjoy normal tanking mechanics.

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You can't magically find a way around fundamental tanking styles. In order to tank you have to mitigate damage. There are only two ways. Absorb damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage entirely.

If you can think of a way to mitigate damage that is something fundamentally, different than those two, please try I assure you, you can't. A third or fourth job, will be using those two ways of mitigating damage, so essentially it is the same mechanics, but with a 'different name, or look'.


How's about warrior? Fix damage calculations with DEF/VIT and add a few more provoke style moves. You end up with a job that tanks in XP level situations & can turn to pure DD at the loss of those tanking abilities. Kind of like a middle road between PLD & NIN, yeah?

Did I 'splode your head?
#38 Jun 27 2009 at 8:10 PM Rating: Default
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It's not that hard to figure out, just look at the DD jobs in the game already. What is different between them? Now add some of those differences to different tank classes. Now you have several tanking classes that fight differently, that would attract some more players to a tanking class.


Yeah, what is different between them? And is it enough?
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#39 Jun 27 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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It is a well known problem in the WoW playerbase that with the tanking overhaul last year

What was changed?

Um, the nutshell version was five main ideas.

1. Instead of doing 10% of a DD's damage, tanks now doing closer to 80% of a DD's damage.

2. Tanks also have access to reactive defensive skills around five to ten times as often, to make the tank feel like they were more in control of their survivability.

3. Loosening of threat requirements, allowing tanks more freedom to move around without immediately losing aggro in the process.

4. Removal of tanking niches, allowing all tanks to be capable of doing all fights, instead of "Okay invite the Warrior for this boss. Okay kick the warrior, and bring in the Paladins for this boss. Okay kick the paladin, bring the warrior back for the third boss."

5. Make tanking gear easier to acquire (previously you could personally gear five DPS jobs in the time it took to equally gear a tank job)

I think that's everything

TL;DR: Blizzard brought the tanking classes into a more active role. Damage, movement, reactive abilities, usefulness on all fights.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
It's not that hard to figure out, just look at the DD jobs in the game already. What is different between them? Now add some of those differences to different tank classes. Now you have several tanking classes that fight differently, that would attract some more players to a tanking class.

Yeah, what is different between them? And is it enough?

I dunno. But by that argument, should Square reduce all DD jobs down to only two jobs? Caster and Melee?

If a game can have a wide variety of DD jobs which have very little difference between them other than flavor, then why is doing the same thing so abhorrent for tanking jobs?

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 12:16am by Karelyn
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#40 Jun 27 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Default
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No? There's nothing wrong with the number of people who want to tank, the issue was that after so many years we just all maxed out at 75. And it's a **** of a lot harder to get an average DD player interested in tanking than it is to get us tank players to level another tank job.


As long as more people join the game, the ratio stays the same (= not good enough). You hitting the level cap won't affect that. Your example assumes that no more people join the game, so existing tanks have to fill those roles instead.

Quote:
How's about warrior? Fix damage calculations with DEF/VIT and add a few more provoke style moves. You end up with a job that tanks in XP level situations & can turn to pure DD at the loss of those tanking abilities. Kind of like a middle road between PLD & NIN, yeah?

Did I 'splode your head?


Yeah, replace shield and sword with axe/gaxe and "flash" with "enrage" and we have a completely similar tanking job as PLD, except that it can't heal itself. Excellent.
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#41 Jun 27 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks Karelyn, I now found the reason why there's so many tanks in WoW nowadays:

Quote:
1. Instead of doing 10% of a DD's damage, tanks now doing closer to 80% of a DD's damage.


Tanks can now DD! Only enforces the point that most of people want to DD instead of tank.. So why not just mix the 2 roles together?

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#42 Jun 27 2009 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Thanks Karelyn, I now found the reason why there's so many tanks in WoW nowadays:
Quote:
1. Instead of doing 10% of a DD's damage, tanks now doing closer to 80% of a DD's damage.

Tanks can now DD! Only enforces the point that most of people want to DD instead of tank.. So why not just mix the 2 roles together?

Sorta, but the other stuff mattered too. The new Blizzard tank design also was made so that a lot of their damage was reflect-like, thus they are incapable of damage dealing unless they are standing in front of whatever mob or boss they were fighting.

I mean, I was a tank long before that. I've been playing a tank for some 8 years now, before I started playing WoW. It's my preferred MMO role.

It was strange to get used to, but it is somewhat refreshing actually having offensive capabilities.

Hyanmen wrote:
Yeah, replace shield and sword with axe/gaxe and "flash" with "enrage" and we have a completely similar tanking job as PLD, except that it can't heal itself. Excellent.

You know both WAR and SAM were intended by Square to be tanking jobs right?

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 12:24am by Karelyn
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#43 Jun 27 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Default
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You know both WAR and SAM were intended by Square to be tanking jobs right?


Yes, and? If you do that, just give every DD ability to tank tbh.
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#44 Jun 27 2009 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Thanks Karelyn, I now found the reason why there's so many tanks in WoW nowadays:

Quote:
1. Instead of doing 10% of a DD's damage, tanks now doing closer to 80% of a DD's damage.


Tanks can now DD! Only enforces the point that most of people want to DD instead of tank.. So why not just mix the 2 roles together?



There are a lot of mitigating factors involved. There's no generic comparison of tank and dps damage; it depends on a number of things to include type of mob and how many mobs you're fighting, tank class, and combat uptime. I would say overall that tank dps will usually come in somewhere between 50-60% that of an equally skilled and geared dps class with threat modifiers to augment the damage so that it's not a 1:1 dps race to see who holds hate.
#45 Jun 27 2009 at 8:30 PM Rating: Default
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There are a lot of mitigating factors involved. There's no generic comparison of tank and dps damage; it depends on a number of things to include type of mob and how many mobs you're fighting, tank class, and combat uptime. I would say overall that tank dps will usually come in somewhere between 50-60% that of an equally skilled and geared dps class with threat modifiers to augment the damage so that it's not a 1:1 dps race to see who holds hate.


How interesting though, that when tank is given ability to deal respectable damage more people play it...
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#46 Jun 27 2009 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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As long as more people join the game, the ratio stays the same (= not good enough). You hitting the level cap won't affect that. Your example assumes that no more people join the game, so existing tanks have to fill those roles instead.


You haven't been playing XI very long have you? For the first few years, there were tons of tanks waiting to be picked up, you didn't have any issue finding them. But because there were only two accepted tank jobs, they became hard to find around the time ToA was released. *shock* The number of tanks leveling a new tank job compared to DDs leveling a new DD job was 10-1 in the best scenario.

Quote:
Yeah, replace shield and sword with axe/gaxe and "flash" with "enrage" and we have a completely similar tanking job as PLD, except that it can't heal itself. Excellent.


You need to do more than that, but you're getting the idea. The tools are exactly the same give or take, but the play styles & applications of each job end up very different. Kind of like how NIN/DRK & NIN/PLD were. Or did you not make it far enough to realize all jobs used the same basic mechanics?
#47 Jun 27 2009 at 8:33 PM Rating: Default
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Jobangles wrote:
Quote:
You're already part of the small % of players who want to play tank.. we'd rather want to increase the amount of people who want to tank?


No? There's nothing wrong with the number of people who want to tank, the issue was that after so many years we just all maxed out at 75. And it's a **** of a lot harder to get an average DD player interested in tanking than it is to get us tank players to level another tank job.

Don't forget that if you change tanking too much you'll lose some of us tanks who do enjoy normal tanking mechanics.

Quote:
You can't magically find a way around fundamental tanking styles. In order to tank you have to mitigate damage. There are only two ways. Absorb damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage entirely.

If you can think of a way to mitigate damage that is something fundamentally, different than those two, please try I assure you, you can't. A third or fourth job, will be using those two ways of mitigating damage, so essentially it is the same mechanics, but with a 'different name, or look'.


How's about warrior? Fix damage calculations with DEF/VIT and add a few more provoke style moves. You end up with a job that tanks in XP level situations & can turn to pure DD at the loss of those tanking abilities. Kind of like a middle road between PLD & NIN, yeah?

Did I 'splode your head?


I want you to take a step back and read what you wrote, then read again what I wrote. I now want you to explain to me, how sitting there getting hit, is different than absorbing damage by HP. If you don't heal (either from a healer job, or yourself. Either or doesn't matter its the same mechanic either way.), then how do you plan to make it a viable tank? Is it invincible? You see, there are only two possible ways to tank. Instead of trying to be a smartass, take a second and analyze.

Now for everyone out there, let me repeat: There are only TWO possible ways of tanking. Absorbing damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage altogether. There is no possible other way to tank period. Those are the only two mechanics by which it is possible to tank. So instead of watering those mechanics and jobs down between 4-6, instead look to entice players to those jobs by creating two fun unique jobs that function entirely different and are based on active skill based abilities, not passive boring ones.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 12:34am by Perspicacity
#48 Jun 27 2009 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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You know both WAR and SAM were intended by Square to be tanking jobs right?


Yes, and? If you do that, just give every DD ability to tank tbh.

... Wait... What?

Square intended WAR and SAM to be tanks. End of statement.

How do you get "If you do that..." out of it?

AureliusSir wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
1. Instead of doing 10% of a DD's damage, tanks now doing closer to 80% of a DD's damage.

Tanks can now DD! Only enforces the point that most of people want to DD instead of tank.. So why not just mix the 2 roles together?

There are a lot of mitigating factors involved. There's no generic comparison of tank and dps damage; it depends on a number of things to include type of mob and how many mobs you're fighting, tank class, and combat uptime.

You are overcomplicating things. I was trying to keep it simple.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 12:36am by Karelyn
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#49 Jun 27 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Default
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You haven't been playing XI very long have you? For the first few years, there were tons of tanks waiting to be picked up, you didn't have any issue finding them. But because there were only two accepted tank jobs, they became hard to find around the time ToA was released. *shock* The number of tanks leveling a new tank job compared to DDs leveling a new DD job was 10-1 in the best scenario.


There were many more people leveling too aside from tanks.. so the many tanks that were lfp got picked fast, too. There was still a problem finding the necessary roles.. Leveling a DD & making every party back then was just horrible..

Quote:
You need to do more than that, but you're getting the idea. The tools are exactly the same give or take, but the play styles & applications of each job end up very different. Kind of like how NIN/DRK & NIN/PLD were. Or did you not make it far enough to realize all jobs used the same basic mechanics?


Oh oh I did, so why is there so many jobs in that case? You don't need 20 to fill the basic mechanics.. The rest of the jobs are just fluff on top of the basic jobs.
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#50 Jun 27 2009 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
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... Wait... What?

Square intended WAR and SAM to be tanks. End of statement.

How do you get "If you do that..." out of it?


Yes, and SE was stupid for intending that(or smart, if they intended every DD to be like SAM&WAR). What's your point?



Edited, Jun 28th 2009 4:39am by Hyanmen
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#51 Jun 27 2009 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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There are a lot of mitigating factors involved. There's no generic comparison of tank and dps damage; it depends on a number of things to include type of mob and how many mobs you're fighting, tank class, and combat uptime. I would say overall that tank dps will usually come in somewhere between 50-60% that of an equally skilled and geared dps class with threat modifiers to augment the damage so that it's not a 1:1 dps race to see who holds hate.


How interesting though, that when tank is given ability to deal respectable damage more people play it...


Damage increase was a part of it. Simplification of tanking also played a big role. What the numbers don't reflect, however, are the number of people who take on tanking roles who really just aren't very good at it. The "can't find a tank" QQ has been largely replaced by "why do so many tanks suck?" QQ. Tanking as a general rule isn't necessarily "harder" than any other group role, but it does require a different mindset to do it properly. Players prone to tunnel vision and semi-focused play tend to make rather substandard tanks. It's something that holds true in any MMO I've played...some people tank because they enjoy it and have an affinity for it, some people tank because they think it makes them look cool and they tend to get to call the shots.

From a developer's perspective, they can never go wrong by asking themselves how to make playing a character suited to tanking fun, as opposed to simply asking how to tune tanks so that they can survive and keep hate.
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