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XIV Needs More Tanks!Follow

#52 Jun 27 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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Perspicacity wrote:
Now for everyone out there, let me repeat: There are only TWO possible ways of tanking. Absorbing damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage altogether. There is no possible other way to tank period. Those are the only two mechanics by which it is possible to tank. So instead of watering those mechanics and jobs down between 4-6, instead look to entice players to those jobs by creating two fun unique jobs that function entirely different and are based on active skill based abilities, not passive boring ones.

Congratulations, you have never played an MMO besides Final Fantasy XI! Your ignorance is showing.

Don't open your mouth if you don't know what you are talking about.

There is typically three ways of tanking damage. Damage reduction (Armor/Shield, Buffs, Health, etc), damage negation (Dodging or Magic Barrier Shields), and healing.

These three ways be combined in different ratios, along with basic variations in damage dealing mechanics (AKA casters and melees), to easily come up with a wider variety of tanking classes than you would ever need in a game.
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#53 Jun 27 2009 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:

You are overcomplicating things. I was trying to keep it simple.


The point I was driving at was that unless your dps are functionally inept, 80% is a bit generous.
#54 Jun 27 2009 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I want you to take a step back and read what you wrote, then read again what I wrote. I now want you to explain to me, how sitting there getting hit, is different than absorbing damage by HP. If you don't heal (either from a healer job, or yourself. Either or doesn't matter its the same mechanic either way.), then how do you plan to make it a viable tank? Is it invincible? You see, there are only two possible ways to tank. Instead of trying to be a smartass, take a second and analyze.


You hold hate through damage and enmity generating moves. While taking more damage than a PLD, you avoid being an MP sink by taking noticeably less than a normal DD & dealing mid range damage to speed fights up. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

Quote:
Now for everyone out there, let me repeat: There are only TWO possible ways of tanking. Absorbing damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage altogether. There is no possible other way to tank period. Those are the only two mechanics by which it is possible to tank. So instead of watering those mechanics and jobs down between 4-6, instead look to entice players to those jobs by creating two fun unique jobs that function entirely different and are based on active skill based abilities, not passive boring ones.


There are only two accepted tanking methods in FFXI, sorry. FFXIV is a different game, remember? I'll give an example of another games tanks in hopes of opening your eyes a little- Aion

Gladiator - Holds hate through damage & hate generating moves, takes less damage than a normal DD but more than a Templar.

Templar - Holds hate through lower defensive damage & more hate generating moves, takes least amount of damage.(I believe it has one healing spell)

They happen to play similar to FFXI's WAR & PLD,(minus mass healing) but they can both tank effectively in XP situations. How is that possible!? Different damage & hate calculations.
#55 Jun 27 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
Players prone to tunnel vision and semi-focused play tend to make rather substandard tanks.

Those players also made pretty substandard DDs too. They are just too busy stroking their e-peen to notice.

It's been fairly well established that in World of Warcraft, the highest end guilds (The top 300 or so) are almost uniformly looking for (and incapable of finding) skilled DD to fill their roster. And it's been this way pretty much since the game began.

On the other hand, I'm aware of quite a few amazing tanks who had never played a tank prior to Blizzard's tank overhaul, and I'm frankly amazed at how quickly they picked up on the more subtle nuances of tanking. Proof that the overhaul did accomplish bringing good players into the tanking role for the first time, and not just the sucky players.
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#56Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 8:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) bolded part is pretty much the same thing. Healing is damage negation, too.
#57 Jun 27 2009 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jobangles wrote:
Quote:
I want you to take a step back and read what you wrote, then read again what I wrote. I now want you to explain to me, how sitting there getting hit, is different than absorbing damage by HP. If you don't heal (either from a healer job, or yourself. Either or doesn't matter its the same mechanic either way.), then how do you plan to make it a viable tank? Is it invincible? You see, there are only two possible ways to tank. Instead of trying to be a smartass, take a second and analyze.


You hold hate through damage and enmity generating moves. While taking more damage than a PLD, you avoid being an MP sink by taking noticeably less than a normal DD & dealing mid range damage to speed fights up. This shouldn't be hard to understand.


You missed the point. There are two mechanics involved in tank survivability: avoidance and mitigation. Avoidance would include things like dodging or parrying where you avoid the damage altogether. Mitigation is where you take less damage from attacks than a non-tank based on job mechanics and/or gear. The FFXI ninja is an avoidance tank. The FFXI paladin is a mitigation tank. Threat is an entirely separate issue. An MMO developer can build tank classes any way they want, but when it comes down to survivability they've only got those two key categories to look at. How a given tank will generate threat is limited only by the creativity of the developers. The main issue is that it doesn't matter what method a given tank uses to build threat if they're dead, and there are only so many different spins you can put on survivability mechanics.
#58 Jun 27 2009 at 8:56 PM Rating: Default
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he main issue is that it doesn't matter what method a given tank uses to build threat if they're dead, and there are only so many different spins you can put on survivability mechanics.


White Mage, wut?
#59 Jun 27 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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Damage reduction (Armor/Shield, Buffs, Health, etc), damage negation (Dodging or Magic Barrier Shields), and healing.

bolded part is pretty much the same thing.

They are two radically different things. And this is where I start questioning how many MMOs and RPGs you've actually played.

You can reduce damage. AKA take only 400 damage from an attack that would do 600 damage to a nice person in a robe. Or you can take zero damage (typically on a dice roll)

These two different ways of reducing incoming damage have been in RPGs since pretty much the beginning of time. Armored classes take less damage than your average robe wearing magic user. You also have a chance to have attacks miss you, or dodge the attack.

In more complicated games, you might introduce things such as magical shields that would absorb a single attack. Or buffs that might reduce individual attacks even further. Or you might be capable of carrying a physical shield, and blocking attacks with that, in either full damage or partial damage reduction.

The possibilities are **** near endless.

EDIT: ****, this was all the way back in FFXI. Fighters took less damage than squishy White Mages and Black Mages. And everyone was capable of dodging attacks, but thieves and monks were more likely to dodge attacks than the other classes.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 12:58am by Karelyn
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#60 Jun 27 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Players prone to tunnel vision and semi-focused play tend to make rather substandard tanks.

Those players also made pretty substandard DDs too. They are just too busy stroking their e-peen to notice.


I agree...the main difference is that a sloppy/unfocused dps is much less likely to cause a wipe than a sloppy/unfocused tank/healer, and I think that is what drives a lot of people away from those specialized roles. There's also a great deal of grief given to tanks and healers by ignorant dps who don't know how to manage threat. On the flip side of the coin, a strong tank or healer will stand out from the crowd more than a strong dps, which helps to get repeat invites to good groups ;D

Quote:
It's been fairly well established that in World of Warcraft, the highest end guilds (The top 300 or so) are almost uniformly looking for (and incapable of finding) skilled DD to fill their roster. And it's been this way pretty much since the game began.


Ya, but watch what happens to a guild when one of their main tanks leaves. Top guilds don't have as much of an issue because they've usually got applications from all over and it's easier to replace one person every few months (if that) than it is to replace 1 person every week as is often the case with dps roles. My last guild in WoW imploded within a month of me leaving because all three of their tanks wound up leaving (I was just the first...I don't take credit for the implosion ;D). Skilled dps are hard to come by and they comprise the majority of an end-game group. They're also more prone to loot drama because they have to compete with more people for the goodies. If you've got a solid group and are progressing well, tanks tend to get geared fast and stick around.
#61Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 9:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'll question your statement about it being 'radically different'.
#62 Jun 27 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jobangles wrote:
Quote:
he main issue is that it doesn't matter what method a given tank uses to build threat if they're dead, and there are only so many different spins you can put on survivability mechanics.


White Mage, wut?


The point...since...just...holy ****...

Two survivability categories.

Only so many ways you can mash them together.

Once you've balanced the survivability, how that particular character builds threat is open to all manner of creativity and how the developers coded threat mechanics. Survivability has to come first, however. Healers have a coded limit to how much they can heal within a certain span of time.
#63 Jun 27 2009 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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They are two radically different things. And this is where I start questioning how many MMOs and RPGs you've actually played.

You can reduce damage. AKA take only 400 damage from an attack that would do 600 damage to a nice person in a robe. Or you can take zero damage (typically on a dice roll)

These two different ways of reducing incoming damage have been in RPGs since pretty much the beginning of time. Armored classes take less damage than your average robe wearing magic user. You also have a chance to have attacks miss you, or dodge the attack.


I'll question your statement about it being 'radically different'.

You either take less damage, or you take even less damage. That's as simple as it gets, and is in no way different from each other (except in this other method you take less damage). Zomg.

Well, ya know, except for the "Taking less damage" is consistent and applies to every attack. And the "Taking no damage" is on a dice roll, and when you don't take "No damage" you are taking more damage than the "Take less damage" tank.

Like I said, compare the original Final Fantasy Fighter to the Thief. Thieves dodge a lot of attacks but are squishy. Fighters were capable of taking harder hits without dying. It's two very different things.

But ya know, you've made it fairly obvious you haven't the foggiest understanding of tanking mechanics across various MMOs, or ****, even RPGs. You don't understand the various ways damage can be applied to a player character or a mob.

EDIT: Since it's the same thing, I can understand why FFXI is totally filled with huge numbers of THF running around tanking everything. After all, taking "no damage" is better than taking "less damage." All those people tanking as PLD are such noobs.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 1:09am by Karelyn
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#64 Jun 27 2009 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They are two radically different things. And this is where I start questioning how many MMOs and RPGs you've actually played.

You can reduce damage. AKA take only 400 damage from an attack that would do 600 damage to a nice person in a robe. Or you can take zero damage (typically on a dice roll)

These two different ways of reducing incoming damage have been in RPGs since pretty much the beginning of time. Armored classes take less damage than your average robe wearing magic user. You also have a chance to have attacks miss you, or dodge the attack.


I'll question your statement about it being 'radically different'.

You either take less damage, or you take even less damage. That's as simple as it gets, and is in no way different from each other (except in this other method you take less damage). Zomg.

Both are basically about reducing damage.


Sure they are...from a novice point of view. Healers tend to notice the difference rather acutely.
#65 Jun 27 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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All those people tanking as PLD are such Gods.


Fixed.
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#66Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 9:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah, personal insults always work in proving your point, I know. I can add some "Wow you totally suck when you dont get this simple thing LOLZ" to the end of my posts too, but let's not go that way shall we?
#67 Jun 27 2009 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Yeah, personal insults always work in proving your point, I know. I can add some "Wow you totally suck when you dont get this simple thing LOLZ" to the end of my posts too, but let's not go that way shall we?

*sigh* Why is it always the ignorant ones who shout the loudest? It's not an insult, I'm stating a painfully obvious fact. You are ignorant of the gameplay mechanics variety that the RPG genre is capable of.

Go play DnD, or ****, even some videogame RPGs or another MMO besides FFXI. ****, play some other Final Fantasy games.

It's pointless even trying to talk to you. I wish there was a way to put people like you and Skeptic on ignore on this forum. *sigh* Few things irritate me like those who are willfully and pridefully ignorant.

You have the capacity to learn, every human does. Go do it.
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#68 Jun 27 2009 at 9:18 PM Rating: Default
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Karelyn wrote:
Perspicacity wrote:
Now for everyone out there, let me repeat: There are only TWO possible ways of tanking. Absorbing damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage altogether. There is no possible other way to tank period. Those are the only two mechanics by which it is possible to tank. So instead of watering those mechanics and jobs down between 4-6, instead look to entice players to those jobs by creating two fun unique jobs that function entirely different and are based on active skill based abilities, not passive boring ones.

Congratulations, you have never played an MMO besides Final Fantasy XI! Your ignorance is showing.

Don't open your mouth if you don't know what you are talking about.

There is typically three ways of tanking damage. Damage reduction (Armor/Shield, Buffs, Health, etc), damage negation (Dodging or Magic Barrier Shields), and healing.

These three ways be combined in different ratios, along with basic variations in damage dealing mechanics (AKA casters and melees), to easily come up with a wider variety of tanking classes than you would ever need in a game.


I've played many other MMO's other than FFXI. You still don't understand that there is either, getting hit (Blood tanking), or negating damage (Dodging, etc.). That is the only two fundamental mechanics to tank. If you can think of a way to mitigate damage in another way other than 1) Healing after being beaten on or 2) Negating all damage I'm all ears.

It seems people do not understand this very simple fundamental concept in which ways there are to take damage. The whole point of a tank is to keep the mobs attention. So, the next logical question that follows is, how do you mitigate damage, so the tank is effective and doesn't die. The only two mechanics are as mentioned before.

Come on people this isn't rocket science. There is no need for more than 3 tank jobs at most, and two easily sufficies since they will be totally unique compared to each other both utilizing different MECHANICS, not a variation of the same mechanic.

SAM and NIN use the same mechanic. PLD and DNC use the same mechanic. They are for all intents and purposes if you are building tanks around them, the exact same. Stop watering down jobs by creating duplicate clones that function the exact same. Instead, look at ways to make the two mechanics, fun, active, and entice players instead of watering down the jobs between many classes so they don't appeal.

#69 Jun 27 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Default
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*sigh* Why is it always the ignorant ones who shout the loudest? It's not an insult, I'm stating a painfully obvious fact. You are ignorant of the gameplay mechanics variety that the RPG genre is capable of.


You're telling me with a straight face that saying "You don't have a clue" isn't an insult? Only way you can prove that statement is to 'win' the argument, and instead you decided to not to even bother? I guess we're done here then.

(Btw, if you still want to continue I proved you wrong in my post above, which you realized I guess. You can still try though)

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 5:28am by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#70 Jun 27 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Jobangles wrote:
Quote:
I want you to take a step back and read what you wrote, then read again what I wrote. I now want you to explain to me, how sitting there getting hit, is different than absorbing damage by HP. If you don't heal (either from a healer job, or yourself. Either or doesn't matter its the same mechanic either way.), then how do you plan to make it a viable tank? Is it invincible? You see, there are only two possible ways to tank. Instead of trying to be a smartass, take a second and analyze.


You hold hate through damage and enmity generating moves. While taking more damage than a PLD, you avoid being an MP sink by taking noticeably less than a normal DD & dealing mid range damage to speed fights up. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

Quote:
Now for everyone out there, let me repeat: There are only TWO possible ways of tanking. Absorbing damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage altogether. There is no possible other way to tank period. Those are the only two mechanics by which it is possible to tank. So instead of watering those mechanics and jobs down between 4-6, instead look to entice players to those jobs by creating two fun unique jobs that function entirely different and are based on active skill based abilities, not passive boring ones.


There are only two accepted tanking methods in FFXI, sorry. FFXIV is a different game, remember? I'll give an example of another games tanks in hopes of opening your eyes a little- Aion

Gladiator - Holds hate through damage & hate generating moves, takes less damage than a normal DD but more than a Templar.

Templar - Holds hate through lower defensive damage & more hate generating moves, takes least amount of damage.(I believe it has one healing spell)

They happen to play similar to FFXI's WAR & PLD,(minus mass healing) but they can both tank effectively in XP situations. How is that possible!? Different damage & hate calculations.


Do you not understand they are using the same exact mechanic! It's redundant to create more jobs utilizing the same gameplay mechanics! What is with the obsession to have so many jobs? Do people not understand the more jobs there are, the more jobs become watered down and less interesting? Now instead of having a flushed out job with many abilities, etc. You have those abilities spread out across 3, 4, 5 or more jobs utilizing the same functions...

Think people.
#71 Jun 27 2009 at 9:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Perspicacity wrote:
The whole point of a tank is to keep the mobs attention. So, the next logical question that follows is, how do you mitigate damage, so the tank is effective and doesn't die.

OBJECTION!

If the whole point of a tank is to keep the mobs attention, why are you focusing so much on how a tank mitigates?

The reality is, a tank has two primary jobs: surviving incoming damage, and holding the mob's attention.

While individual games vary, it is typically common that a tank has done all they can for their survivability once they begin a fight, and most of what they do during the fight is with relation to holding the mob's attention.

There is a nearly infinite varieties of game mechanics that can be implemented to make this appeal to different players. Maybe someone wants to hold hate by healing themselves. Maybe someone else wants to hold hate by smacking the guy with their sword. Maybe someone wants to hold hate by throwing fireballs.

There is absolutely no reason there can not be a variety to tanking classes, much the same way as there is a variety to damage dealing classes.
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#72 Jun 27 2009 at 9:26 PM Rating: Default
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This just in..

SE just announced that they will only have one available job in Final Fantasy XIV:


DRG.
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#73 Jun 27 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
You're telling me with a straight face that saying "You don't have a clue" isn't an insult?

Absolutely. It is humanly impossible to know everything that there is to know in the universe. Ignorance is simply a fact of living. Admitting that is not a fault.

What is a fault, is denying you are ignorant of a subject when you clearly are. This is a fault which you are suffering from greatly with regards to the current subject.

The insult is not that you are ignorant. The insult is that you are ignorant, yet claim to be knowledgeable, and thus make an *** of yourself.
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#74Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 9:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Prove it.
#75 Jun 27 2009 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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What is a fault, is denying you are ignorant of a subject when you clearly are


Prove it.

*points to every post you've made so far in this thread*

Case closed.
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#76Skeptic, Posted: Jun 27 2009 at 9:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) How about you guys stop bickering about who is smarter and stay on the actual topic here? FFXIV needs more tanks.
#77 Jun 27 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Default
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*points to every post you've made so far in this thread*


Same can be said about you, too. Except that your ignorance is paired with arrogance.

See where this is going? "U suk" "no u" "no u suk more" "f u".
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#78 Jun 27 2009 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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How about you guys stop bickering about who is smarter and stay on the actual topic here? FFXIV needs more tanks.


Works for me. Mix tanks and DD's together for the best results, imo.




Edited, Jun 28th 2009 5:37am by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#79 Jun 27 2009 at 9:41 PM Rating: Default
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Karelyn wrote:
Perspicacity wrote:
The whole point of a tank is to keep the mobs attention. So, the next logical question that follows is, how do you mitigate damage, so the tank is effective and doesn't die.

OBJECTION!

If the whole point of a tank is to keep the mobs attention, why are you focusing so much on how a tank mitigates?

The reality is, a tank has two primary jobs: surviving incoming damage, and holding the mob's attention.

While individual games vary, it is typically common that a tank has done all they can for their survivability once they begin a fight, and most of what they do during the fight is with relation to holding the mob's attention.

There is a nearly infinite varieties of game mechanics that can be implemented to make this appeal to different players. Maybe someone wants to hold hate by healing themselves. Maybe someone else wants to hold hate by smacking the guy with their sword. Maybe someone wants to hold hate by throwing fireballs.

There is absolutely no reason there can not be a variety to tanking classes, much the same way as there is a variety to damage dealing classes.


I'm not even going to bother with you anymore, you sound like the radical environmentalists who want us to go back to living like the days of our ancestors, the point being you don't know how to comprehend the reality of the situation, and when I try to explain it, you say 'Nyuh-Nyuh-Nyuh'.

I'll take the bite though one last time, let's see if you can understand this.

It doesn't matter how much you can mitigate, if you can't keep the mobs attention focused on you. If you can't do that all else becomes moot. Your abilities are rendered useless, your purpose is rendered useless. Keeping the focus of the mob on you, is the main priority. Once you know that, then you can ask, how can you keep the tank alive?

There again, the only two survivable mechanics, are either taking damage by absorbing it through HP and healing it back (Whatever the amount, whether it is 500, or 50, doesn't matter its the same mechanic: You take damage and heal it, if you don't heal, you die.), or you negate damage through avoidance. Period. There is no other mechanic. It defies all logic to have another mechanic. There simply, is no other. Every other thing you proposed is a variation of the two mechanics.

Now, instead of watering down those mechanics between many jobs, you can instead focus on the two mechanics, in two jobs. One avoidance, one blood tank. Instead of taking their abilities and moving them across a wide range of jobs essentially, creating clones and watering down each job, you can instead keep them on one job, flush it out, make it exciting, fun, active skill based and entice people to either avoidance, or blood tanking and you can differentiate skill styles within those jobs. There is no reason to have more than 2 tank jobs.

Your rut, is you think you need a new job for every different variation of the only two mechanics that tanks can utilize. I explained why this is flawed thinking and how it actually hinders people wanting to tank. So you have 2 tanks, each mitigating damage the same, but different enmity mechanics? So, essentially, it is the same job, what makes you think people are going to want to play those jobs since they will be taking abilities from each other.....watering them down.

I hope SE learns from their mistakes and creates no more than 12 classes at most for FFXIV throughout its lifetime. I'm tired of jobs being clones of each other. Jobs need to be different from each other, that creates diversity, it also allows for jobs to fully function their roles without several overlaps. It also makes balancing much easier, and it also makes expanding those jobs in the future much easier. Once you get 20+ jobs you start to create gimmicky duplicates when you have to find ways to expand the jobs in content upgrades and patches.

Anyways, I'm done after this. There's no point to argue with someone further who is entrenched with their dogma.
#80 Jun 27 2009 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Perspicacity wrote:
Your rut

OH THE IRONY IT BURNS

Perspicacity wrote:
I hope SE learns from their mistakes and creates no more than 12 classes at most for FFXIV throughout its lifetime.

Agree.
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#81 Jun 27 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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Do you not understand they are using the same exact mechanic! It's redundant to create more jobs utilizing the same gameplay mechanics! What is with the obsession to have so many jobs? Do people not understand the more jobs there are, the more jobs become watered down and less interesting? Now instead of having a flushed out job with many abilities, etc. You have those abilities spread out across 3, 4, 5 or more jobs utilizing the same functions...

Think people.


To counteract the shortage of an essential party role without excluding it from the game? There only need to be enough options available to balance the ratio between Healing, Support, Tank, & DD jobs required in an ideal party. In FFXI's case that would be 3-1(arguable 4-1) DD to Tank/Heal/Support ratio, rather than the 11-2 it has.

PS. Those four roles cover the basics of all jobs, but you'd agree that an MMORPG with only four jobs would be kind of boring yeah? That BLM & SAM were noticeably different?
#82 Jun 27 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Perspicacity wrote:
If the whole point of a tank is to keep the mobs attention, why are you focusing so much on how a tank mitigates?

The reality is, a tank has two primary jobs: surviving incoming damage, and holding the mob's attention.

While individual games vary, it is typically common that a tank has done all they can for their survivability once they begin a fight, and most of what they do during the fight is with relation to holding the mob's attention.


No. The ability to generate threat is not what defines a tank. The ability to survive is what defines a tank, and the threat mechanics come as a necessary afterthought. If the ability to generate threat quickly is what defines a tank, everyone would be a tank, because everyone in a party can typically pull threat if they spam the right abilities fast enough.

Quote:
It doesn't matter how much you can mitigate, if you can't keep the mobs attention focused on you. If you can't do that all else becomes moot. Your abilities are rendered useless, your purpose is rendered useless. Keeping the focus of the mob on you, is the main priority. Once you know that, then you can ask, how can you keep the tank alive?


That's backwards thinking. A class is defined by the one thing they bring to a group that they can do better than anyone else. Healers aren't defined as healers because they're squishy and don't do much damage. Damage classes aren't defined as such because they don't heal so well and can't tank a beating. Since every role in a group is capable of generating threat quickly in most circumstances, obviously it's not the ability to build threat that defines a tank. It's their ability to excel at what other roles don't do so well: take the brunt of the attack so that the damage classes can live long enough to get the job done.

Quote:
Now, instead of watering down those mechanics between many jobs, you can instead focus on the two mechanics, in two jobs. One avoidance, one blood tank. Instead of taking their abilities and moving them across a wide range of jobs essentially, creating clones and watering down each job, you can instead keep them on one job, flush it out, make it exciting, fun, active skill based and entice people to either avoidance, or blood tanking and you can differentiate skill styles within those jobs. There is no reason to have more than 2 tank jobs.


By that logic, there would be no reason to have more than two damage jobs...one magic, and one physical. There would be no reason to have more then one healing job, and no reason to have more than one support job. So there you have it...the 6 job MMO. No diversity, no room for different playstyles. If FFXIV ends up going with the jobless system, the whole conversation becomes moot anyways.

Quote:
Your rut, is you think you need a new job for every different variation of the only two mechanics that tanks can utilize. I explained why this is flawed thinking and how it actually hinders people wanting to tank. So you have 2 tanks, each mitigating damage the same, but different enmity mechanics? So, essentially, it is the same job, what makes you think people are going to want to play those jobs since they will be taking abilities from each other.....watering them down.


As above, the same argument applies to dps yet you go on to suggest limiting FFXIV to 12 classes (assuming there are classes at all.) So why do damage classes get more diversity than tanks? If you've got 2 tanking classes, say 2 healing classes, maybe 2 support classes, why do you need 6 different dps classes? There are only two categories of damage: physical and magic. So maybe you've got one physical, one magic, and one hybrid. Where do the other three come from? Is it possible that you're being a bit unreasonable in your assessment of the potential benefit of more than 2 classes suited to tanking?

Edited, Jun 27th 2009 11:32pm by AureliusSir
#83 Jun 27 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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Holding hate through damage is still a valid point, the key however is making healing classes more MP effecient. But with only one class truly being MP effecient, i.e, White Mage, it really wasn't a viable option to tank using this method. Maybe SE intended to correct this with the Scholar class, but all they did was create yet another hybrid class instead of a specialized one that is forced to level the job under the expectations of other players.

The fact that there are only two accepted classes that tank doesn't mean that they are the only classes that are capable of doing it. After all, they gave warriors the job abilities provoke, berserk, defender, as well as physical attack and defense bonuses. Everything about this class says, "I can hold hate by beating the living crap out of a mob, and still take more hits than all you other squishy DD's." The same goes for the Monk job class with abilities like counter, subtle blow, and their massive amount of HP accompanied by a high vitality. Yet, players found a way to turn a class that was not intended to tank into a tank, and you know who I'm talking about members of the shadow.

All of this only confirms that more tanking classes does not mean higher tank availibility. If a particular server is populated with say 25,000 players, only about 15% of those players are going to be tanks no matter how many classes are capable of doing it.

In order to increase tank availibility, you have to give players who love to tank more options and acceptance to do what they do best: Tank. Therefore, you add or make more classes into specialized tanks like Paladins, and severly limit all of this freakin hybridization already. It is just ridiculous, and a major draw back of FFXI.
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#84 Jun 27 2009 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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SmokesAlot wrote:

In order to increase tank availibility, you have to give players who love to tank more options and acceptance to do what they do best: Tank. Therefore, you add or make more classes into specialized tanks like Paladins, and severly limit all of this freakin hybridization already. It is just ridiculous, and a major draw back of FFXI.


Smokes brought up a good point. However, let's analyze the situation we have in FFXI. Keep in mind, I'm covering every factor regarding tanking. As it stands right now, PLD and NIN are the only 2 acceptable classes. PLD can hold hate and NIN cannot without some serious support like /TA. Now before I hear someone bring up NIN/drk's, that's a very situational setup and doesn't work under conventional settings such as XP parties. The same goes for PLD/nin for actual tanking purposes, not TP burns. The system we have in FFXI is quite screwed up. PLD's are the premiere tank for everything endgame now, but good luck getting a XP buffer to recap your buffer. If you're a NIN, you just 'first voke' and just another token DD. That role is flipped upon an actual event and NIN is the odd job out in most cases or a back-up tank. In merits, there is no tank and we use our own defensive tools like Third eye or shadows to migrate damage.

I think the best way to balance FFXIV will be to include stances such as Hasso/Seigan for all jobs. You can't have a PLD that's an uber tank be totally useless for merits or in FFXIV's case; "growth parties". By useless, I mean the tanking aspect, not the class. Of course PLD/nin with Joy/Justice kick *** good enough to warrant a slot. That's not my issue so please refrain from commenting on that. If you create a job that's sole purpose is to tank, make it feasible to tank all things. However, if no PLD's are available, allow other melee to tank in a PLD's place with their own unique abilities. How often besides Salvage boss tanking, Nyzul, and merits do you hear about your average DD class tanking anything anymore?

I think we can all agree that Utsusemi won't be exploited this time. So that kinda forces SE's hand to adapt better defense traits for all their melee classes. Defenses like parry,counter, and guard are extremely lacking in FFXI. Look at how much PLD improved with shield mastery. It all comes down to balance. WAR's original stance of Zerk/defender was a great idea. The next trick is to offset the mp sink damage taken from another class to equal more damage given in exchange. If your WAR in FFXIV is taking more of a pounding while co-tanking with a PLD, at least his damage output is worth the mana spent. If we allow for only one job to be a serious tank like in FFXI, we'll run into the same problems with forming parties or doing events. As a PLD, holding hate can be extremely rewarding. That being said, all the bases must be covered.
#85 Jun 28 2009 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:

This is not true, the lack of tank jobs is a major factor in the shortage. I remember when tanks were not that hard to find, the problem after a while is with only 2 tank jobs, the people that wanted to play has already played them. Those two jobs was very different from each other, either you liked blink tanking or you liked paladin, and once you leveled them, there were no other options. If there was 10 tank jobs and 2 dd, there would be a ton of tanks, to imply that nobody likes playing tank jobs is not 100% true. There would be more DD (if only had 2 dd jobs), then tanks (if only had 2 tank jobs) that is true, but if there was 10 tank jobs and 2 dd there would be tons of tanks. They would have to add different styles of tanking (since adding more tank jobs that does it the same exact way is pointless), kinda like there are so many styles and ways to dd. If they did this there would be a lot of tanks.


It probably wouldn't hurt to add some more tanking styles. Unfortunately there aren't that many options. You can have the guy who mitigates damage, and the guy who avoids damage (PLD and NIN, respectively), but then what? Maybe a guy who tanks by draining life from his enemies (would be very hard to balance) and then maybe a guy who has a pet that tanks for him (also hard to balance) and then you have really no where else to go. So maybe you rope in some more people who like those extra styles and don't like the default tanking styles.

Really though, most people, if they wanted to tank at all, would be fine playing a NIN or PLD. The truth really is that most people don't want to tank. More is often expected of a tank than any other individual player in a party, from being involved constantly with strategy and positioning, to being present all of the time, to even being the most gear sensitive role. And in return you get what? Blame when people die, or being the guy who dies the most in general?

I don't mean to make it sound like tanking is so horrible, just that it requires a certain mind set. You either want that responsibility or you don't, and it's hard to get people to try it and succeed if they aren't 100% sure that's what they want to do.
#86 Jun 28 2009 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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This is where you were wrong. You've obviously got little to no experience playing Ninja let alone any tank job. Turtle Paladin took the hit in ToA because melee damage was much more effective than any other form of hate control. Melee build PLD & NIN were enjoying the awesome that is ToA.


75NIN. Never played PLD. You contradict yourself in saying that melees were given an upper hand in ToAU, which has nothing to do with a tanking or Ni-nuke NIN. Also, Paladin does not assertain enmity through melee damage anyhow, /attack is merely a formality imo. It's no lie when I say that from levels 40-54 while playing Ninja, I could tank without auto-attacking just as easily with the wheel, shuriken, and provoke without the aide of a THF's Trick Attack.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 5:13am by mcboxx
#87 Jun 28 2009 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You can't magically find a way around fundamental tanking styles. In order to tank you have to mitigate damage. There are only two ways. Absorb damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage entirely.


I like latter sentence, and have always wondered.. since Paladin is a Light-oriented element, then Ninja must certainly be its Dark-element tanking counterpart. Right?
#88 Jun 28 2009 at 1:21 AM Rating: Default
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A lot of people seem confused as to what defines a tank.

Avoidance, Mitigation, and Taking a hit.

Avoidance is completely avoiding the damage as stated above. It is nice to have, but don't depend on it, because for every time you avoid damage you can also not avoid it and get your face smashed.

Mitigation is reducing the incoming damage to a reasonable/heal-able level. High armor/def allows for incoming damage to become smaller and predictable making it easier to heal.

Taking a hit is just what it says. If you fail to avoid a hit and then fail to mitigate the hit you gotta take the hit. This gives damage 'spikiness.' High HP/Health values are used to defend against taking the hits.


WoW has all 4 of its tanks share mitigation and avoidance. FFXI has an avoidance tank and a mitigation tank. However, all tanks in both games adhere to the taking a hit. Which is why they also have higher hp/health pools.


Now after this is established you can look at threat. Every game handles it differently, but what it ALL BOILS DOWN TO IS THIS STATEMENT:

What good is avoidance/mitigation if I am not the focus of attention for the mob.

This is solved with threat. Every game handles it differently. WoW automatically gives all of its tanks an EXTREMELY large threat modifier to all damage being done and skills. FFXI does not have the large threat modifiers but uses incoming damage and output in addition to some skills in order to maintain threat.

If threat did not exist, then every DD ever created would be built to tank while they DPS. Threat remedied this.


Regardless of how many tanking classes will exist in FFXIV, the more classes capable of tanking will result with more tanks avaliable. Same thing with healing, more means more.


FFXI screwed up in that of 20 classes, only two were viable tanks, and 4/5 are viable healers. Assuming SE will continue to avoid 'Holy Trinity'(tank/dd/healer) with their own tank/dd/heal/support, I would like to see around 20% of the classes tank, 20% heal, 20% support, and the rest DD.
#89 Jun 28 2009 at 3:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Fun stuff here.

What I think a lot of people are forgetting is that the players have a humongous influence on the roles of the jobs. The needs of the current dictate the roles. As you guys know of course, NIN wasn't fathomed as a tank in creation. I imagine SE felt that most of the frontlining DD would be sharing the damage taken from the mob and ideally juggling the hate between melee, so that no one person is taking too much stress, thereby allowing multiple classes the chance to mitigate and dish damage in a balanced fashion. Paladin was added for someone who felt they wanted to specialize more.
But of course, the current demand was to be more efficient. The problem isn't really the classes needing more in number, but the demand changing, which is in part, in the hands of the devs to give the roles viability (IE: SAM parrying skill) and the players to experiment. I'm sure everyone knows PLD tank some things better than NIN and vise versa. Not sure if anyone has ever seen a decent counter-tank: Monk with maxed Counter skill and geared toward it (gear and support-wise). It's really impressive. Of course, the MNK is most likely not going to do as well tanking many of the things the other classes can, but watching it Counter-attack multiple VT+ mobs repeatedly (fighting them simultaneously, I mean) makes you believe a bit~
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#90 Jun 28 2009 at 3:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with the statement of "more means more." DDs are all doing the same thing; damage dealing. They simply have more styles of accomplishing the same task and people apparently like that. It comes down to choice, more choice. Two tanking jobs will always be "played up" faster than 3 or more. For example, PUP or BST could even be made into a tanking job (although the latter would cause a heavy clash with its traditional ideal) by using pets to mitigate damage and draw hate. Sure, it's the same thing, but point is that it looks different, feels different, and provides another means to the same end.
#91 Jun 28 2009 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Lots of interesting stuff here. I think one way SE could address the tanking shortage is to have a lot of flexibility in your character's abilities. For example, if it works like some people are speculating and you can equip abilities and spells from other jobs into a set number of slots, then perhaps if you're a SAM looking for party and there's no tanks available, you could equip Provoke, Utsusemi, and Evasion Boost and play as a tank. If there's already a tank in the party then you would equip other abilities to improve your damage dealing role. The cost is that it would take extra time to learn a wide variety of abilities and probably not all players will do it, just like in FFXI the best players leveled a ton of different subjobs for every possible situation.

Then again, we don't know anything about how the battle system works. In interviews the developers have stated that they're looking to make battles be many vs. many, so each party will be fighting a lot of enemies at once. If that's the case, each individual enemy will probably be weak enough that any one can tank it.

My prediction for the job that will be impossible to find when you're putting together a party in FFXIV: whatever job is casting that protective bubble around the mages in the trailer.
#92 Jun 28 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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SE's biggest problem is being afraid of ****-hurting the existing jobs. Indeed, this playerbase is so whiny about so many things it's sometimes surprising that we get changes at all. We are the bane of our own existence.

They flat out said it when they implemented Dancer that their Flourish move was only half a provoke so it wouldn't step on the toes of existing tank classes.

And when I read that I was sitting here practically yelling at the screen ************* WHY????" We have two out of twenty jobs that can reasonably tank, they add another job which can heal itself and mitigate damage with /nin after a time, and they couldn't bring themselves to give them a ******* natural voke that would be more useful than saving the mages? Are you kidding me?

Dancer could have helped fill the gap, Samurai could have helped fill the gap, even Warrior can go back to being a viable tank if SE would get with the program and allow those jobs to do reasonable DD and take reasonable damage. However, they are so stuck in this mindset (and a lot of you all are too) that if you can take damage you shouldn't be able to deal it and that makes no sense.

Any front line fighter can get skilled in front line fighting and there should be no reason that a tank cannot push out reasonable DD and still be a tank. That's the main problem with FFXI right now - the major dd's have **** poor natural defense and skill in defense really doesn't mean a whole lot.

I hope that SE sees their mistakes and XIV focuses on skill levels as being the determining factor in what you are good at rather than a standard skill set for each job.

That way, even if you play SAM, you could decide to be a party protector and use a *provoke* like ability to gain the mobs attention, and your defensive skills as well as your attacking skills will go up, thereby making you a hybrid attacker that can also protect your party. Skill will have to actually mean something in this game though for this to work. Same way with healing magic. If you want to be a healer, then you have to actually work at it. No more just inviting some random SMN and telling them to sub whm and spam Cure III because the differences between a WHM's Cure III and a SMN subbing WHM's Cure III are often nominal.

Then parties won't have to worry so much about finding a "Paladin" or a "Ninja", they can just pick anyone who puts in their seacom "Defense Skill 275+" or something like that, which would indicate that this person took the time to make themselves a viable tank.
#93 Jun 28 2009 at 5:08 AM Rating: Default
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So every DD would be a tank too? Good proposal
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#94 Jun 28 2009 at 6:04 AM Rating: Default
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There is basically two ways to tank, absorb or evade. That is the reason there are only two REAL tank classes. Making hybrids aren't really effective so until they come up with a new way to tank it will probably stay two main tank classes.
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#95 Jun 28 2009 at 6:19 AM Rating: Default
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Or they could make tanking fun like they did in WAR. Albeit that is a very subjective comparison, provoking X amount of times couple with Cure IV Y amount of times becomes redundant very fast. Even worse when you're burning shadows like whoa - the difference was a NIN tank could actually do some damage (and by some I mean a lot) keeping the user amused for longer.

People typically don't want to be tanks because it is an immensely boring job, fix the dynamic and it won't be as much of a "problem". Tanking in FF11 was shallow at the best of times.

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#96 Jun 28 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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Now for everyone out there, let me repeat: There are only TWO possible ways of tanking. Absorbing damage by HP and healing it, or negating the damage altogether. There is no possible other way to tank period. Those are the only two mechanics by which it is possible to tank. So instead of watering those mechanics and jobs down between 4-6, instead look to entice players to those jobs by creating two fun unique jobs that function entirely different and are based on active skill based abilities, not passive boring ones.


This is the same as saying there are only 2 ways to dd, melee or magic damage. That does not mean there aren't different styles of tanking that can be implemented in the form of new jobs. Thats like saying theres only 2 ways to dd (mage,melee), so there can only be 2 jobs, this of course is not true because there are different styles of dd that uses the same general way. All you have to be is a little creative, and you could come up with new tank jobs just like any other job, the style would be different. For example mnk and war (or any melee dd), use the same basic concept (weapon to dd), but the style is different (hand2hand to axes, or whatever you use on war), but abilities and things are different in return giving it a different style. Yes its much easier to think of new dd classes (because the amount of weapon types and stuff), but that doesn't mean with a little more creativity, you couldn't think of different styles to tank also (using the same basic concept).

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 10:30am by HocusP

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 10:30am by HocusP
#97 Jun 28 2009 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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that doesn't mean with a little more creativity, you couldn't think of different styles to tank also (using the same basic concept).


Dodge tank
Blink tank
Armoured (physical barrier) tank
Magical barrier tank
Pet/automaton tank
Convoluted magical avoidance tank
Kiting instead of tanking
Any combination of the above tank
Yep thats more than 2 kinds of tank.
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#98 Jun 28 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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triplealphareaction wrote:
Dodge tank
Blink tank
Armoured (physical barrier) tank
Magical barrier tank
Pet/automaton tank
Convoluted magical avoidance tank
Kiting instead of tanking
Any combination of the above tank
Yep thats more than 2 kinds of tank.

Ragnarok Online Priest Tank.

Yeah I went there (Cause it was fun, and the priest spell sound effects were awesome D:)

... Kyrie Eleison...

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 11:05am by Karelyn
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#99 Jun 28 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Smokes brought up a good point. However, let's analyze the situation we have in FFXI. Keep in mind, I'm covering every factor regarding tanking. As it stands right now, PLD and NIN are the only 2 acceptable classes. PLD can hold hate and NIN cannot without some serious support like /TA. Now before I hear someone bring up NIN/drk's, that's a very situational setup and doesn't work under conventional settings such as XP parties. The same goes for PLD/nin for actual tanking purposes, not TP burns. The system we have in FFXI is quite screwed up. PLD's are the premiere tank for everything endgame now, but good luck getting a XP buffer to recap your buffer. If you're a NIN, you just 'first voke' and just another token DD. That role is flipped upon an actual event and NIN is the odd job out in most cases or a back-up tank. In merits, there is no tank and we use our own defensive tools like Third eye or shadows to migrate damage.


I've never needed TA tanking as either job. NIN/DRK is situational to the same extant that PLD/NIN are, they perform almost exactly the same end game. The advantages of PLD show up on mobs like JoL while NIN excels more against things like Cerberus. Mixing them gains a greater advantage through the constant use of Flash & Stun, making most fights laughable.

Pro Tip: Paladins self cure, Ninjas maintain a closer hold on the hate cap.

Quote:
75NIN. Never played PLD. You contradict yourself in saying that melees were given an upper hand in ToAU, which has nothing to do with a tanking or Ni-nuke NIN. Also, Paladin does not assertain enmity through melee damage anyhow, /attack is merely a formality imo. It's no lie when I say that from levels 40-54 while playing Ninja, I could tank without auto-attacking just as easily with the wheel, shuriken, and provoke without the aide of a THF's Trick Attack.


How do I contradict myself? If you were any good at Ninja you could keep up with other melees & you had Provoke for extra hate. Low defense mobs favored fast single wield weapons like Katanas, which Ninja just happened to excel in. Ni nukes lost their thunder relatively fast if you weren't gimping your melee damage for enmity or evasion gear.(Go Haubergeon!)

The same thing happened with PLD, you dropped things like Valor Surcoat in favor of a Haubergeon & a strong sword. You took the same amount of damage but ended up losing a negligible amount of enmity in favor of increasing your melee a noticeable amount. The end result was faster XP & higher hate generation.
#100 Jun 28 2009 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know about you guys but I know 2 jobs that are more than capable of tanking yet no one did it. Sam and war. I won't go into details since doing it from my phone would take an hour but people who have both played sam and war know what I'm talking about.
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#101 Jun 28 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

So every DD would be a tank too? Good proposal


Actually, no. Not every DD would be, they would just have the potential to be if they wanted to be more than just a WS macro. That same SAM could just as easily get a weapon that doesn't teach him any hate-grabbing skills (I think they mentioned that we would be getting abilities from weaponry), so he wouldn't ever skill his defense and would be be pretty useless at higher levels as an actual tank.

I just think that if defense skill made as much as of a difference as weapon skill does, then we would have move available tanks. Either that or fix the natural defense some of these jobs have, and for the love of soup release some new gear pieces that are comparable to the freaking level 30 pieces I still see some people wearing at 75. Those pieces aren't helping anyone's defense, but you are considered a gimp attacker without them and that's sad.
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