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XIV Needs More Tanks!Follow

#152 Jun 28 2009 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
The assumption (because it's all that's been done) is that regen has to be a static amount, rather than scaling with gear or damage taken, or whatever. It could easily scale however you want it to scale though.

It can scale with gear, but it can't with damage. If it does scale with damage then it's not really regen, it's simply armor mitigation given another name.

If you made it to where regen regenerates 25% of each hit then it's almost exactly the same as 25% armor mitigation (the only difference being on killing blows). It's not really regen, it's armor mitigation given another name. We aren't discussing flavor text, we're discussing actual mechanics.

The mechanic we're talking about specifically does not scale with damage. To make it scale with damage you'd have to change the mechanic, and then it's no longer the old mechanic.
Quote:
Similarly, there's nothing preventing you from creating regen that scales with damage taken. Mob hits you, you lose life, you get a buff that heals you for some % of damage taken over some period of time. Voila, scaling regen.

That's armor mitigation renamed regen. It's no longer the same mechanic as the one we're talking about. If the same thing as if I made doge to where you only "dodge" part of the blow, so maybe you dodge 25% of the blade, but the rest still hits you. You're not cut as deep, but yo're still cut. So you take 25% less damage. That's not dodge anymore. That's armor mtigation renamed and flavored as dodge.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 7:18pm by Allegory
#153 Jun 28 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:
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I don't know about you guys but I know 2 jobs that are more than capable of tanking yet no one did it. Sam and war. I won't go into details since doing it from my phone would take an hour but people who have both played sam and war know what I'm talking about.


In certain situations they were able to tank, (war in more situations then sam), but we are are talking about real tank jobs, that could tank it all situations (or at least 99% of situations effectively). Weather the situation be mission tanks, endgame tanks, party tank, quest tanks, usually real tank jobs if done well can be used in 99% of situations.


i see, well i knew a couple of wars who would tank gods. I tanked a couple gods as my sam once as well, it's not very difficult it's just most people don't want to do it or don't have the equipment for it. SAM is even more than capable of tanking now since the bastards get more than one third eye randomly. SE finally does something good for SAM when I quit the game. -_-
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#154 Jun 28 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:

If you made it to where regen regenerates 25% of each hit then it's almost exactly the same as 25% armor mitigation (the only difference being on killing blows). It's not really regen, it's armor mitigation given another name. We aren't discussing flavor text, we're discussing actual mechanics.



And this is my original point, more or less. Regen IS mitigation. (I know you disagree, I'm just restating). What separates the two in most MMOs is the mechanically different way in which they are applied. Regen is used as a metered type of mitigation, and armor is used as a % based form. However, there's no reason that mitigation can't be metered (like stoneskin) or that regen can't be % based (like my fictitious example).

When you look at them on the most fundamental level, they are the same thing, and it is only the mechanical differences that will separate them. There are only so many mechanical things you can do before players start to feel like they've seen it before.



Edited, Jun 28th 2009 8:20pm by KarlHungis
#155 Jun 28 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
And this is my origional point, more or less. Regen IS mitigation.

It's not regen. You're just calling it regen.

If I take a snake before you and call it a cat I can't state that snakes and cats are the same because my animal is identical to a snake. I just took a snake and renamed it a cat, it's not actually a cat.

You can do the same thing with dodge as you did with regen. I can make dodge work exactly the same as armor, because you only dodge part of the cut/blow so you only take part of the damage. It's not actually dodging. That's all flavor text.

So instead of dodging 100% of the damage 25% of the time I dodge 25% of the damage 100% of the time. So dodge is exactly the same as armor mitigation. See the problem here?

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 7:22pm by Allegory
#156 Jun 28 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
And this is my origional point, more or less. Regen IS mitigation.

It's not regen. You're just calling it regen.



You lose the HP and then you get the HP back over time. I don't think I'm stretching the definition of the word "regeneration."

I think you are just locked into the idea that "regeneration" means "a flat rate over time."
#157 Jun 28 2009 at 4:28 PM Rating: Default
Do we need more tanks?
BS "How to make sure we don't end up lfg (or looking for a replacement) for hours whilst seeking a tank" thats what this is about, really we are yet again talking about FFXI are we not?

How can we have more tanks in FFXIV, we haven't ******* got any yet!!!!!!!
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#158 Jun 28 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:

So instead of dodging 100% of the damage 25% of the time I dodge 25% of the damage 100% of the time. So dodge is exactly the same as armor mitigation. See the problem here?


Yes, the problem is that in your mind "dodge" is synonymous with "avoidance."

But "Dodge" could be avoidance or it could be mitigation, depending on how you design it (as you just demonstrated). Which does make the word somewhat useless in describing a mechanic, which is why you would default to a more fundamental term such as "avoidance" or "mitigation" to better describe what is going on.
#159 Jun 28 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Default
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How do I contradict myself? If you were any good at Ninja you could keep up with other melees & you had Provoke for extra hate. Low defense mobs favored fast single wield weapons like Katanas, which Ninja just happened to excel in. Ni nukes lost their thunder relatively fast if you weren't gimping your melee damage for enmity or evasion gear.(Go Haubergeon!)


I don't think I've ever seen a tank intentionally gimp themselves and their strongest assets in favor of a higher DoT as a means of holding hate in a traditional party setup, which is what I'm speaking about, all HNM's and extra-curricular events aside. ACC and ATTK have nothing to do with how the two perform and excel at their positions. Haubergeon/O.Kote, etc. make up little difference in what is lost in the ToAU levels and the Ninja's wheel.

Furthermore, in reference to your previous posts about my skills at the job, a SAM/WAR @53 merited and geared-to-the-gills could not pull hate from a totally unmerited, solo-tanking, evasion build me after WS/Meditate/WS/Voke. I know how to play the job, and often received noteriety for it.



Edited, Jun 28th 2009 8:33pm by mcboxx
#160 Jun 28 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
You lose the HP and then you get the HP back over time. I don't think I'm stretching the definition of the word "regeneration."

I think you are just locked into the idea that "regeneration" means "a flat rate over time."

Seriously? There's even a spell called regen in FFXI. Every game I've played does regeneration pretty much the same.

Again, I can do the same thing with dodging/avoidance. I can make avoidance exactly the same as armor mitigation. The problem here is that you're changing the concept while keeping the name. It's not the same concept anymore.

Using your logic I can make any form of tanking exactly the same as armor mitigation so that they're all the same, but I can only do it by fundamentally altering the mechanic behind each like you did.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 7:33pm by Allegory
#161 Jun 28 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:



Using your logic I can make any form of tanking exactly the same as armor mitigation so that they're all the same, but I can only do it by fundamentally altering the mechanic behind each liek you did.


Yes, you can put whatever label on whatever mechanic you want, and in the end, it's all just avoidance or mitigation. The damage either fails to hit you at all, or it hits you, and then because of a mitigation mechanic, it doesn't hurt you as much as it would hurt some one else.
#162 Jun 28 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory. You are being trolled.

Stop feeding him. Nobody can be that blatantly obtuse and stupid as Karl is; he is just trolling.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 8:41pm by Karelyn
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#163 Jun 28 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
Yes, you can put whatever label on whatever mechanic you want, and in the end, it's all just avoidance or mitigation. The damage either fails to hit you at all, or it hits you, and then because of a mitigation mechanic, it doesn't hurt you as much as it would hurt some one else.

But I can make avoidance work like mitigation or mitigation work exactly like avoidance.

Even allowing you to fundamentally change the concept of regen into something entirely different, do you at least see how the concept Aurelius and I are talking about is different than either mitigation or avoidance? Do you see how it works differently?
#164 Jun 28 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
Allegory. You are being trolled.

Probably. I'm easy to troll.
#165 Jun 28 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Default
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Yes, you can put whatever label on whatever mechanic you want, and in the end, it's all just avoidance or mitigation. The damage either fails to hit you at all, or it hits you, and then because of a mitigation mechanic, it doesn't hurt you as much as it would hurt some one else.


Like in the way a char either hits or fails to hit a mob? So there are only 2 kinds of char? No wait, Oh thats right its pointless semantics. To quote a famous folk saying of the future "Too many nerdy scientists spoiled the FFXIV"
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#166 Jun 28 2009 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:


Even allowing you to fundamentally change the concept of regen into something entirely different, do you at least see how the concept Aurelius and I are talking about is different than either mitigation or avoidance? Do you see how it works differently?


I concede that there is a mechanical difference between % based mitigation and metered mitigation (such as regen or stoneskin).

I maintain that from the perspective of a healer, they serve fundamentally the same purpose, which is to provide consistent relief for the healer, and to make him or her more efficient.

#167 Jun 28 2009 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
Allegory. You are being trolled.

Stop feeding him. Nobody can be that blatantly obtuse and stupid as Karl is; he is just trolling.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 8:41pm by Karelyn


Just because some one has conviction, does not mean they are obtuse or stupid.

You're free to dismiss what I have to say, but calling me names because you disagree is ignorant. I could easily say the same about you or Allegory. Obviously, since you don't agree with me, you must be obtuse or stupid, and simply trolling, right? Or maybe we just disagree, and the discussion serves the purpose of ideally helping us to see things from some one else's perspective.

You will never grow if you never challenge yourself.

Edit: I have as much right to post here as you do, and aside from defending myself from your off topic and inflammatory post, I've been on topic, rational, patient, and logical. If any one is the troll here, it is you. This is the last I'll say about it, because it's not the topic of this thread or forum.


Edited, Jun 28th 2009 8:57pm by KarlHungis

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 9:03pm by KarlHungis
#168 Jun 28 2009 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
Just because some one has conviction, does not mean they are obtuse or stupid.

You're free to dismiss what I have to say, but calling me names because you disagree is ignorant.

You can have a conviction that the world is flat. It doesn't make the concept any less stupid.

Go troll somewhere else please.
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#169 Jun 28 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
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Congratulations on ruining what would have been a good Thread with all the bickering.

"I'm smarter than you because my idea makes more sense.". "No..I'M smarter because MY idea makes more sense to ME.".

Seriously, guys, the fact that you're all taking shots at each other is not going to change the fact that people have their own personal views/opinions on certain things that have to do with this Game..or any game.

This Thread was good, until the whining started.

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#170 Jun 28 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:

If you have a mob that drops high damage single hits or even rapid bursts of medium sized hits, he will eventually kill the avoidance tank also. Using the earlier example of City of Heroes, this is why the Reflex scrapper power pool absolutely sucked (and may still suck, for all I know) at launch. A "mitigation" type of character might lose half of his HP to a large hit, whereas an avoidance type would simply die on every other hit. Avoidance would be a great strategy if you were fighting mobs that caused instant death with every hit (although not fighting those mobs would be an even better strategy), but against anything that hits JUST hard enough to kill you in a few hits, the mitigation approach is just superior, because you can plan around consistent damage better than you can for spiky damage.


Regen tanking would involve such a complex system to keep it tuned to be functional without being overpowered that I'd almost have to take my hat off to any current generation MMO developer that had the bawls to try and take on the implementation. My personal preference is that SE not go overboard in that sense and keep things simple enough so they don't get stuck in a loop of nerfing the different tank builds so that none of them become a flavor-of-the-month fiasoo.
#171 Jun 28 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
No amount of tank jobs is going to be enough considering the problem in XI wasn't that there wasn't enough tanks. It was that people simply didn't want to tank. Any melee can tank all but the highest level monster, and let's be honest: Those are extremely far and between, and should be limited to a selected few jobs.

That's not necessarily true. There are people who really do enjoy the tank role. Myself being one of them. I think any player, as there are several, who have both NIN and PLD leveled to 75 presumably enjoy tanking to some extent. There are also a fair amount of WAR's who missed and/or became dissapointed when they are no longer invited to parties to tank, and are expected to be strictly DD's.

BTW, love the avatar. ;)
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#172 Jun 28 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
Allegory wrote:


Even allowing you to fundamentally change the concept of regen into something entirely different, do you at least see how the concept Aurelius and I are talking about is different than either mitigation or avoidance? Do you see how it works differently?


I concede that there is a mechanical difference between % based mitigation and metered mitigation (such as regen or stoneskin).

I maintain that from the perspective of a healer, they serve fundamentally the same purpose, which is to provide consistent relief for the healer, and to make him or her more efficient.



I can't stress enough that regen is not mitigation. It's an entirely separate category defined by when the benefits are applied. Avoidance and mitigation are applied as the hit lands. Regen is applied afterwards. The difference over time may not be significant, but that doesn't make them comparable mechanics.
#173 Jun 28 2009 at 5:23 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
My personal preference is that SE not go overboard in that sense and keep things simple enough so they don't get stuck in a loop of nerfing the different tank builds so that none of them become a flavor-of-the-month fiasoo.


This.

I think that is what starts a lot of these Forum arguments, is that a lot of people are making some of these Topics way more complex than what they should be.

SE, please keep it simple, sweet, and something we'll all enjoy playing. Don't worry about all this Forum ranting that you see going on, these guys speaking all educated are going to one day make a MMORPG that will surpass yours in both game mechanics, and fun! So..prepare yourself SE, we have some people right on these Forums that are going to one day blow your company out of the water!

Go figure. e.e

/endsemirant
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#174 Jun 28 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
What level are you in FFXI?


For various reasons (including one character delete because a year in I decided I didn't like the face I'd picked) I'm still in the "real party" levels. I'm dreading hitting merit levels, though, as 1) PLD is my main, and 2) it sounds boring as ever-living ****, but I'll cross that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Hopefully FFXIV will launch in time to make it a moot point.

Allegory wrote:
The problem here is that you're trying to stretch too far to extend the categories. They're starting with the assumption that there are two types of tanks and trying to force everything to fit into those categories rather than examining the types of tanks and concluding there are those categories.


I wouldn't say I agree with the "two types" view, but I can at least see what they're getting at.

Karelyn wrote:
Myself, I prefer the RPGs that are more similar to DnD, wherein you have a huge variety of classes and races that can be played, as that gives more variety, and let's people have more fun. Yes I used the three letter word... F U N. It's not a bad thing you know.


Replace "D&D" with "anything but D&D" and I'll agree with you. I'm all for variety and flexibility in a game, provided it isn't mushy variety or flexibility. I wish I could define that better, as I'm sure it'll get misinterpreted, but that's the best description I can come up with.

Of all the P&P games I've played/GM'd, I think Shadowrun (2nd/3rd Edition) had the best system, especially from a character creation standpoint. Anything was possible, and (for the most part) ended up pretty well-balanced. If only the system wasn't too **** convoluted and time-consuming to play... 7th Sea is a close second, and is much more playable.

SmokesAlot wrote:
Versatility is great tool that should only be available for true hybrid classes, and these classes need to be extremely limited for the players with the time and patience to play those jobs to their full potential.


There's a fine balance to be had there. Make jobs too specialized and they're useless outside their field. Make them too homogenized and there's no "hook" to the game and group dynamics go out the window.

I'd like to see "in the field" versatility (being able to switch roles in combat; think BLU) remain limited, but I think allowing "in the garage" versatility (being able to build and gear for more focused roles) to have a noticeable impact on specialist jobs' performance would benefit the game, as well.
#175 Jun 28 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
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i see, well i knew a couple of wars who would tank gods. I tanked a couple gods as my sam once as well, it's not very difficult it's just most people don't want to do it or don't have the equipment for it. SAM is even more than capable of tanking now since the bastards get more than one third eye randomly. SE finally does something good for SAM when I quit the game. -_-


Yea I have tanked gods, fafnir, and a few other things as war/nin, but you could tell it wasn't a real tank job. Sam and war, would only be able to really keep hate if the alliance was really weak damage wise, or was holding back on damage just so you could tank. I don't see this as really tanking because if everybody has to hold back because you have no real hate abilities, then anybody could tank with huge cure support. I don't mean it to say with pld or nin, blms and stuff could just go all out (cause thats not true), but with war or sam, one nuke from a strong blm and hate was gone. This was with the best equipped wars and sams (sam less attempts then war), and same result, you had to hold way back or you would die every 2mins. Thats where I use the word tank "effectively" because any job could tank, but only 2 jobs (nin pld) could tank "effectively" in 99% of situations.
#176 Jun 28 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Thats where I use the word tank "effectively" because any job could tank, but only 2 jobs (nin pld) could tank "effectively" in 99% of situations.


NIN was not even created to be a Tank job to begin with, was it?
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#177 Jun 28 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Default
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Skeptic wrote:
Quote:
Thats where I use the word tank "effectively" because any job could tank, but only 2 jobs (nin pld) could tank "effectively" in 99% of situations.

NIN was not even created to be a Tank job to begin with, was it?

It wasn't. And on the opposite side of the coin, both SAM and WAR were created with the intent of being tanks.
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#178 Jun 28 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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You also have to take into consideration that FFXI was SE's first MMORPG, and for it being their first, they did pretty **** well. You have to expect flaws like this when a game is giving it their first try at something new, think about what is in store for XIV if SE uses everything they've learned from their first MMO. Of course, XIV will have its flaws as well, as any game does.

I'd expect to see a lot of improvement.
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#179 Jun 28 2009 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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I would have thought that the first step to encouraging people to "tank" with different jobs is to fix how mob attack and strength vs player defence and vitality operates, so that those attributes actually take on a meaning (as opposed to the current system where you practically stack on whatever gives better DD outcomes).

Currently, players are penalised (by lower emnity generation) for wearing "tanking" gear over DD gear.

Also, it doesn't make sense that wearing heavy plate mail would result in the wearer taking similar damage to using chainmail / cloth armour. So another change could be to increase the defence values for tanking gear.
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#180 Jun 29 2009 at 1:32 AM Rating: Good
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SmokesAlot wrote:
That's not necessarily true. There are people who really do enjoy the tank role. Myself being one of them. I think any player, as there are several, who have both NIN and PLD leveled to 75 presumably enjoy tanking to some extent. There are also a fair amount of WAR's who missed and/or became dissapointed when they are no longer invited to parties to tank, and are expected to be strictly DD's.


And let's not forget about people who would like to tank, but don't like the way the available tanks classes play.

A good example of this is WoW. All four tank jobs (Warrior, Paladin, Death Knight, and Druid) rely on a combination of mitigation and avoidance, with Druids relying more on mitigation than the other tanks. But the four classes play differently and thus attract different players. For example, I tank on my Paladin, but I have no interest in tanking as a Druid or Warrior.

In FFXI, I did not particularly enjoy the NIN playing style, though I enjoyed PLD; but had I not liked playing PLD either, I would've been stuck wanting to tank but (essentially) not being able to.
#181 Jun 29 2009 at 2:57 AM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
Skeptic wrote:
Quote:
Thats where I use the word tank "effectively" because any job could tank, but only 2 jobs (nin pld) could tank "effectively" in 99% of situations.

NIN was not even created to be a Tank job to begin with, was it?

It wasn't. And on the opposite side of the coin, both SAM and WAR were created with the intent of being tanks.


And DNC, unless you want to claim the second job in the game with a provoke ability have it just for cosmetics.
#182 Jun 29 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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If you guys want to reduce the jobs down to simple mechanics, why not go all the way? All jobs function identically if you look at them in terms of pushing buttons on a gamepad or keyboard. I don't know about you all, but I don't play games because I enjoy pushing in the buttons. In other words, it's not the base mechanics that make a job fun, it's the variation in gameplay styles and visual differences that people enjoy. If you keep that in mind, there are an endless amount of uniquely enjoyable tank jobs possible.

#183 Jun 29 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Default
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Is it at least fair to say that PLD will be in XIV?
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#184 Jun 29 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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Skeptic wrote:
Is it at least fair to say that PLD will be in XIV?


For my part I hope job name stays the same, I like Paladin, warrior and the normal names of the job. You don’t need to reinvent this wheel.
#185 Jun 29 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Skeptic wrote:
Is it at least fair to say that PLD will be in XIV?

Yes, Paladin has been one of the secondary stock jobs/classes in the Final Fantasy series since the FF3. It would be HIGHLY unusual for FFXIV not to include PLD, unless they only use classes from the primary stock of jobs (AKA, the 6 classes from FF1 and the 6 starting jobs in FFXI)
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#186 Jun 30 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Default
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I totally agree. I think that this time around it shouldnt be limited to just NIN and PALLY. I think that they could add some unique tanking abilites instead of ????/War.

Examples.

Knight: Can tank using Rend abilities every 30 secondes it could rend power speed int ect. They would count as a taunt and gain hate equal to provoke. They would also lower mobs stats based on strategy. That is just one example.
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#187 Jun 30 2009 at 6:29 AM Rating: Good
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Why are we arguing over whether there are two or more ways to tank? Here are the two things that are needed for a tank to be successful:

1. Can gain and keep the monster's attention
2. Doesn't get pwned in the process

So what SE has to do in order to solve the "never any tanks" problem are two things:

1. Give jobs natural hate keeping abilities - not half assed ones like Paladin is crippled without /WAR or other jobs only get half an ability because the two existing jobs might cry
2. Stop making all DD jobs such pansies who can't take what they can dish.

This is another area where XIV will have some serious stigma to overcome because XI simply did it wrong.
#188 Jun 30 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
So what SE has to do in order to solve the "never any tanks" problem are two things:

1. Give jobs natural hate keeping abilities - not half assed ones like Paladin is crippled without /WAR or other jobs only get half an ability because the two existing jobs might cry
2. Stop making all DD jobs such pansies who can't take what they can dish.

This is another area where XIV will have some serious stigma to overcome because XI simply did it wrong.


I'm not convinced of that. I think what SE did "wrong" with tanking in FFXI was leave NIN alone. They didn't design NIN with the idea that it would be one of the top tanking classes and they apparently didn't fully grasp enough of their own combat mechanics that they couldn't have looked at the NIN job as it was being developed and say, "Hey, wait a second...with two tiers of Utsusemi and the threat mechanics working the way they are, this guy could end up being an avoidance tank!" And it wasn't so much that NIN was an avoidance tank...it's that NIN was a pure avoidance tank. That kind of stuff is game breaking. Tanks that operate on the assumption that they only get hit when a mistake is made are bad. SE then let PLD suffer through two whole expansions...RotZ and CoP...as the readheaded stepchild of the tank world because NIN tanks were so much better suited to so many different xp camps that the class SE did originally intend as a tank was set aside.

With FFXIV, I would like to see SE take a more...informed approach with their skill development and maintenance. If they create a certain set of skills with the intent that those skills be used for tanking and over a period of time it becomes apparent that the community as a whole doesn't see them as working for their intended purpose, there has to be changes made. SE was pretty clumsy with the class balance overall. I found it odd that damage classes could be labeled as OP and subsequently nerfed to oblivion...and left that way for a very long time...but NIN tanking was allowed to disrupt that whole category of job roles for so long and the solution wound up coming with changes to the mechanics of common mobs found in ToAU areas.

If SE wanted to continue having NIN as tanks, they should have upped their mitigation, nerfed Utsusemi and taken a very close look at NIN threat mechanics. The idea is not that they would have made NIN into a substandard tank, but balanced NIN so that it wasn't such a superior option to PLD in so many cases for so long.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 8:34am by AureliusSir
#189 Jun 30 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
1. Give jobs natural hate keeping abilities - not half assed ones like Paladin is crippled without /WAR or other jobs only get half an ability because the two existing jobs might cry
2. Stop making all DD jobs such pansies who can't take what they can dish.
Did you stop playing FFXI before 2006 or what?
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#190 Jun 30 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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XIV 14 does need more tanks. in 11 if you WANT to DD then you have a dozen options for you. If you WANT to TANK you got 2 Options. this alone is enough to put alot of people off.

add to that its a fairly common view that there is only 1 tank class Paladin at anything endgame, i hear it said alot that almost anything a nin can tank a pld/nin can tank it better. right or wrong i dunno but its a popular opinion either way.

the problem is variety. DDS have so much variety and so many ways to do damage. If you wanna Shoot from a distance you got Ranger, if you wanna smash stuff with an axe theres WAR, If you wanna Skillchain fun there's SAM or if you just wanna punch the **** out of stuff there's MNK. Theres nowhere near as much flexibility for Tank Classes.

i would say this is the biggest factor in the lack of tanks in ffxi. and by comparison if you /sea all tanks on your server at any given time (at time of posting theres 70 plds and 53 nins on alexander) and then /sea any random dd job (56 Monks 79 Warriors and 63 Sams) the numbers are on a fairly level field across the jobs. the only Difference is if you're making a party you dont notice so much if there isnt a war seeking. cos theres so many options for dd but so few options for tank so its more noticable when one isnt around.

thus the lack of tank jobs seems to be heavily affected by the number of options available and i honestly think if there were more options for tanks they'd be alot more people levelling them.

Allegory wrote:
Even common sense says that if you make more tanking classes then you'll get more tanks.
AGREED!
so yes XIV does need more viable TANK options.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:15pm by Dzian
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#191 Jun 30 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
23 posts
-Some mobs can be evasion tanked and its easier to do so. You would use a THF tank.

-Some mobs that need to be blink tanked because of nasty spells or moves. NIN tank.

-Mobs that have very nasty Magic spells and you need a tank that is very strong to magic. RDM tank.

-Mob that has to be straight tanked but has no nasty magic moves and has high acc and has moves that hit you regardless of shadows. Need very Melee defense for this mob. Blood tank. PLD tank.

Those can be 4 tank classes right there in FF14. All they need is to give each job enough moves to keep enmity this time.

They should have some good DD move and fancy looking "weaponskills" to appeal to people. They should not come close to any damage dealer though in damage but they should feel very powerful and godly and that will appeal some players.

Can also have monk "counter tank" in the next game if its not too powerful

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:11pm by taruwaruSeraph
#192 Jun 30 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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taruwaruSeraph wrote:
-Some mobs can be evasion tanked and its easier to do so. You would use a THF tank.

-Some mobs that need to be blink tanked because of nasty spells or moves. NIN tank.

-Mobs that have very nasty Magic spells and you need a tank that is very strong to magic. RDM tank.

-Mob that has to be straight tanked but has no nasty magic moves and has high acc and has moves that hit you regardless of shadows. Need very Melee defense for this mob. Blood tank. PLD tank.

Those can be 4 tank classes right there in FF14. All they need is to give each job enough moves to keep enmity this time.

They should have some good DD move and fancy looking "weaponskills" to appeal to people. They should not come close to any damage dealer though in damage but they should feel very powerful and godly and that will appeal some players.

Can also have monk "counter tank" in the next game if its not too powerful


It's better to have content tuned so that different tanks may have certain advantages or disadvantages for certain encounters based on their skills and overall mechanics, but at no time should a particular mainstream tank build be not viable for a given encounter.

If someone likes the role of a healer, they can level as a healer and see all of the content a game has to offer. The same goes for damage roles. Tanks, on the other hand, are the only class that can be forced to develop a set of skills different from what they might like if they want to see certain content because it's tuned in such a way that their preferred tanking mechanic is not in any way viable for certain encounters. I don't mind being able to play a character in a damage role in a group, but I prefer in all cases to tank. If I suddenly find myself in a position where I'm not able to tank an encounter because of the way it's tuned, it's bad development.

As a general rule, tanks are penalized in the damage output department for the sake of increased survivability. How great that penalty might be is up to the developers, but you're not likely to see high mitigation/avoidance classes pumping out obscene damage in defense-oriented gear in any MMO. That means that if there's solo content, tanks suffer whether they're working on character development in a solo environment or just farming. They might outlive anyone else, but they tend to kill much slower. If you then say to Mr. Tank, "Oh, by the way...your particular build is only suited to tanking about 3/4 of game's content, and you'll have to either go with a dps/healing build or sit out the rest," well...you just created a tank shortage for yourself.
#193 Jul 03 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
3 posts
You know, why not just make a job class that really is based on actual tanking - a.k.a taking damage. Since it was said that the basics of tanking should involve something regarding some sort of damage mitigation and self-efficiency/recovery, why not a class that can thrive from damage taken? Something like a class that is based on the damage it receives to function well.

For example, just off the top of my head something like Red Knight or something, with abilities such as:

1. Instead of having an MP bar, they will have a "blood" bar that fills up as you take damage, up to a specific limit depending on the level/equip bonuses.
2. Have a skill set specific to that blood bar with abilities such as-
*Have 2 hate generating abilities - one that generates more hate when your hp is close to max, and one that generates more hate when your hp is close to 0, and have them both have a shared cooldown of like 10 seconds.
*Have an ability that damages your target according to the amount of damage it did to you, while it gets capped at a certain amount and can be increased by hp or defence for example, and have a cooldown of 30 seconds.
*Have an ability that heals you according to the amount of damage you've taken from your target by absorbing it's "lifeforce" or something, meaning you don't damage it but get healed from it only (for functionality purposes, so that it would be target specific and not total damage taken in general or something by other mobs too).
*Have an ability that fills an instant amount of your blood bar (like 25% of it lets say) with a cooldown of like 1-2 min.
*Have a sort of regen that fills your blood bar slowly all the time, but doesn't work past like 5%-10% of the max blood bar, something like that.
3. Have a party buff for that class that would enable the tank to get his blood bar filled by an extent according to damage taken by other party members as well (i.e if someone grabs hate and takes a hit, it would fill the Red Knights blood bar and enable him to use a hate grabbing ability for example, or in an AOE situation where other members take damage as well).

I think a class based on these principles would make a great and exciting tank job to play, especially with so much room for skill and improvement like taking damage to low hp, then using the hate generating ability that's more effective when you're low hp (which would be more potent than the other hate generating ability of course) and then quickly heal yourself and stuff so you get alot of hate through that. The class would also be helpful in a party thanks to it's DD capabilities as well, thanks to abilities such as his damage return skill that damages the mob according to damage taken.

Any thoughts? x.x
#194 Jul 03 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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posterxx wrote:
You know, why not just make a job class that really is based on actual tanking - a.k.a taking damage. Since it was said that the basics of tanking should involve something regarding some sort of damage mitigation and self-efficiency/recovery, why not a class that can thrive from damage taken? Something like a class that is based on the damage it receives to function well.


I perceive two drawbacks to that kind of job.

1) The "low health" abilities would become obsolete in a lot of content, because you would have an extremely hard time tuning content for a more "traditional" tank + healer(s) and still allow your style of tank to survive.
2) WoW already implements a similar system with the Rage bar seen on warriors and druids in bear form. If SE announced today a Red Knight archetype in line with what you've suggested, the forums would erupt with epic QQ on a global sycophant scale. "ZOMFG FFXIV IS A WOW CLONE!!!" Much weeping and gnashing of teeth would ensue. Pandas would unify and sob openly for days. Crisis call centers and hospitals would be flooded with calls from people who cut themselves because SE is making a WoW clone, but now they feel better. "IF I WANTED TO PLAY A WARRIOR/DEATHKNIGHT HYBRID, I'D BE PLAYING WOW!!!!111 /sob /gibble /emo"

On second thought, I think it would be a brilliant idea just from the malicious glee standpoint ;D
#195 Jul 03 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Look at the 6 starting jobs, there are 3 mages and 3 melee. Now look at the combat skills available, specifically the last 4 that are clumped together on the list. They're all skills aimed at avoiding damage. Now look at the jobs that can use most, if not all, of those skills.

Each of the starting melee jobs has a special way of using those skills. Thf uses more evasion but can also utilize shielding and parrying, war can use shielding, parrying, and evasion, and mnk uses guarding and evasion and has extra hp for lack of a 3rd usable skill.

When FF11 first started who tanked? I'm sure they didn't know how to unlock pld or nin right away either. ****, nin wasn't even introduced until RoZ. So there were no pld or nin for a while. Yet parties did fine.

People are just to used to pld and nin as the go to guys. SE put the options right there with the skill sets to make them work.

When FF11 was released in NA I was in many unconventional parties that worked wonderfully! I've had thf tanks, war tanks, even mnk tanks, they didn't give them all that extra HP and guarding skill for nothing!

We're just afraid, and laugh at anyone who isn't, to explore other avenues already presented to us. And I think SE has tried to get us to explore the other paths with the various expansions but as a whole the player base is stubborn.


Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 11:44am by Ishbubjr

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 11:51am by Ishbubjr
#196 Jul 03 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Ishbubjr wrote:
When FF11 first started who tanked? I'm sure they didn't know how to unlock pld or nin right away either. ****, nin wasn't even introduced until RoZ. So there were no pld or nin for a while. Yet parties did fine.

People are just to used to pld and nin as the go to guys. SE put the options right there with the skill sets to make them work.

When FF11 was released in NA I was in many unconventional parties that worked wonderfully! I've had thf tanks, war tanks, even mnk tanks, they didn't give them all that extra HP and guarding skill for nothing!

I think what you described, is two overpowered jobs replacing many other jobs.

In other words, the solution is to nerf PLD and NIN :D
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#197 Jul 03 2009 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I think what you described, is two overpowered jobs replacing many other jobs.

In other words, the solution is to nerf PLD and NIN :D


No not at all, they are called advanced jobs for a reason. People just need to remember they're not the only choices.

It just makes me mad to hear people crying about having only 2 tank choices where there are in fact a lot more choices.

I wouldn't be surprised if SE made the key to beating some HNMs using some of the unconventional job/subjob choices. I've seen numerous interviews where the developers talk about wanting to see the players beat certain HNM's the "right way".
#198 Jul 03 2009 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I perceive two drawbacks to that kind of job.

1) The "low health" abilities would become obsolete in a lot of content, because you would have an extremely hard time tuning content for a more "traditional" tank + healer(s) and still allow your style of tank to survive.
2) WoW already implements a similar system with the Rage bar seen on warriors and druids in bear form. If SE announced today a Red Knight archetype in line with what you've suggested, the forums would erupt with epic QQ on a global sycophant scale. "ZOMFG FFXIV IS A WOW CLONE!!!" Much weeping and gnashing of teeth would ensue. Pandas would unify and sob openly for days. Crisis call centers and hospitals would be flooded with calls from people who cut themselves because SE is making a WoW clone, but now they feel better. "IF I WANTED TO PLAY A WARRIOR/DEATHKNIGHT HYBRID, I'D BE PLAYING WOW!!!!111 /sob /gibble /emo"

On second thought, I think it would be a brilliant idea just from the malicious glee standpoint ;D


But you can basically say that about any new job you can come up with - there are only so many new totally original ideas out there that were never more or less implemented in one game or another - most are some sort of blend between new and old ideas. And in any case, the class that I described really isn't anything at all like the rage system cuz of the theme, the abilities and the details such as the meter getting larger like another class's mp pool that grows with level and gear (as opposed to WoW's 100 max rage system).
And in any case, what I said was just from the top of my head, there are like 30 more skills you can add to the class to make it more specific to a new game and nothing like a WoW version of a warrior, like converting blood meter to hp directly, or buffs like life leech for party, blood shield that absorbs like 1/2 of the damage you recieved from a mob with some sort of cap, and much more.

Oh, and you said that this sort of tank wouldn't be viale in alot of content, well I think that is pretty false because it's not that you're dependent on low hp or anything, you have alot of options, and for end-game bosses for example you would focus on surviving so would only use defensive abilities and healing abilities, like using blood shields, healing according to damage taken from boss, healing alot after AOEs cuz of blood meter filling up from damage taken by all of the party, etc. Lots of options to include there, especially things like make the attack that delivers damage according to the damage you received be especially good against bosses (be a viable damage source on bosses cuz of their high resistance to damage from other sources, except this attack).
And in any way, you could also make the class have a DD option where you could for example have a skill where you choose one team member (like another tank, while you DD) and when they take damage, it fills your blood meter instead of damage that you yourself take, and then use alot of offensive abilities (that i didn't think of yet but you know what i mean).

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 12:15pm by posterxx
#199 Jul 03 2009 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Ishbubjr wrote:
No not at all, they are called advanced jobs for a reason. People just need to remember they're not the only choices.

It just makes me mad to hear people crying about having only 2 tank choices where there are in fact a lot more choices.

There aren't more choices. There are only two choices. Every class in an MMORPG always functions relative to the other classes. If there were no other classes in FFXI besides Whm and Blm then Whm would be the best tanks in the game, and people would still make it to 75. It'd be a lot more painful and probably a dumb game to play, but people would still find a way to do it.
Ishbubjr wrote:
When FF11 was released in NA I was in many unconventional parties that worked wonderfully! I've had thf tanks, war tanks, even mnk tanks, they didn't give them all that extra HP and guarding skill for nothing!

We're just afraid, and laugh at anyone who isn't, to explore other avenues already presented to us. And I think SE has tried to get us to explore the other paths with the various expansions but as a whole the player base is stubborn.

It's has absolutely nothing to do with fear. It has absolutely everything to do with being effective. Nin and Pld are just plain better tanks than everyone else. Leveling parties with them gain more exp faster. Choosing to use anyone else for a tank is a stupid decision.

It's like a stranger walks up to me and offers me a choice, either he'll give me $10 or $20. I can have either amount absolutely free. Why would I ever choose to take $10 from him? You could try to argue "$10 is nothing to scoff at!" the way you try to argue that people tank just fine without plds and nin. You could try to argue that I was afraid or too stubborn to take the $10 like you tried to argue the same for not choosing other tanks. But you'd be wrong in all instances. $20 is always better than $10. It's an opportunity cost not to take the $20. Even though I'm getting money for free I'm still losing out if I don't take the $20. There is no choice here.

The only tank jobs there are in a game are the ones that are the most and equally optimal. It doesn't matter who SE chooses to designate as a tank. They designated Sam as a tank and that didn't matter at all. They could designate Smn as a tank and it still wouldn't make Smn a tank.
#200 Jul 03 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's has absolutely nothing to do with fear. It has absolutely everything to do with being effective. Nin and Pld are just plain better tanks than everyone else. Leveling parties with them gain more exp faster. Choosing to use anyone else for a tank is a stupid decision.


I touched on this saying I've been in unconventional parties that worked wonderfully. Some better than if I had a pld or nin. Yes, I agree it has a lot to do with being effective, but if you'd actually try other combos, you'd find out other job combos can be effective. It also has a lot to do with what you're fighting.

I've actually tanked as a thf/war and thf/nin with maxed evasion, shielding, parrying ,decent gear and keeping the mob debuffed.

Many of those parties have worked out better, with faster exp than a lot of meat shield parties I've had because the mages don't need to heal as often. This is especially true if it's a fast hitting mob.

I've been playing for 7 years and the best and most fun parties I've had don't fit what has become the same ol' boring party mold.

And saying that choosing anyone else for a tank is stupid, show's the one track elitist mentality that a lot of people have when it comes to partying/playing. Most of the players stay on that track because it's what they've been taught.

There's no need to constantly be striving to top everyone else. When ff11 dies out those elitist are going to be like "WTF? I spent 5 years trying to be perfect and never even got a chance to have any fun, now my character has been deleted!"


Why borrow $20 when it only takes $10 to buy what's needed? Fear that there will be tax...


Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 5:00pm by Ishbubjr
#201 Jul 03 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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When FFXI die out, the elitist will move on to the next game and max/min it never stops. Being the best (or most effective) you can be is human nature, most people don't want to be average, they want to be the best or strive to be the best they can be. Its not about "topping everyone else", its more about doing the best you can do, even in single player games most people see how much damage they can do (or how effective they can be with no other people to show off too).

Its about being more effective, there are only two "real tank jobs", they are better in 99% of situations. Any job can become a tank, just like any job can do any role, but that doesn't make them that role. like someone else said a game can only have 1 job (like whm), and people still could level to the max with just 1 job in the game. The whm would assume the role of tank, dd, and support, that doesn't make it a tank and dd class. It is just assuming that role for the time being, if theres more effective jobs in an area 99.9% of the time, then you can't call that job a tank (or that role if theres 2 jobs that does it 99% more effectively). Just cause SE might have thought Sam and Thf would become tank jobs, doesn't make them tank jobs.

I'm sorry but 99% of the time, if you have 2 thfs tanking and enough time to debuff and keep hate with a thf, I highly doubt it was better then a nin or pld with the same skillset. You say it was better because the support didn't have to heal much, but a party with the same skilled players, with a nin or pld wouldn't have to heal much either. Mobs would die too fast (unless you fighting tough mobs), and you wouldn't have to worry about healing other melee because pld and nin wouldnt lose hate (skilled tanks anyway). So basically what i'm saying is your party might have been better with different combos of tanks, but that was 99% more likely because of the skill level of the players. If you would have the same skill level with a real tank job (nin or pld), then 99% of the time, your combo tanks wouldn't stand a chance (unless like war/nins and mnk/nins, not thfs and sams tho). The war and mnks are only better at level 74 when they recieve utsusemi: Ni also, so what about 1-73? Anywayz I have had good combo tank parties also but if I would of had the same skill level players with a real tank job, then it wouldn't stand a chance.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 5:35pm by HocusP

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 5:36pm by HocusP
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