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XIV Needs More Tanks!Follow

#202 Jul 03 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Ishbubjr wrote:
I touched on this saying I've been in unconventional parties that worked wonderfully. Some better than if I had a pld or nin. Yes, I agree it has a lot to do with being effective, but if you'd actually try other combos, you'd find out other job combos can be effective. It also has a lot to do with what you're fighting.

Those are specialized situations. Yes I've done the dual war/nin tanks. I've done mana burns. I've done bone parties. For the vast majority of situations though pld and nin do far superior.
Ishbubjr wrote:
And saying that choosing anyone else for a tank is stupid, show's the one track elitist mentality that a lot of people have when it comes to partying/playing. Most of the players stay on that track because it's what they've been taught.

You can throw out all the random insults you want, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. For general leveling, pld and nin were better tanks.
Ishbubjr wrote:
There's no need to constantly be striving to top everyone else. When ff11 dies out those elitist are going to be like "WTF? I spent 5 years trying to be perfect and never even got a chance to have any fun, now my character has been deleted!"

It's not about elitism, it's about having fun. It's not fun to be ineffective. If I play basketball, hockey, or tennis I generally prefer not to suck. Sure I can have fun just goofing off with my friends, but most people enjoy the sports through competitive play.

I could call you an elitist for not having the whm/war tank with blink and stoneskin while the paladin heals her. It can work. The only reason you choose not to do it is because you're so busy trying to top everyone else. See how silly that argument is?
Ishbubjr wrote:
Why borrow $20 when it only takes $10 to buy what's needed? Fear that there will be tax.

Because there is no "needed." There is no magical line where suddenly tanking is acceptable. Everyone can "tank" in the game. There is not one class in FFXI that cannot tank, but some do it poorly while others do it better. It's a continuous spectrum of effectiveness at tanking, not a binary "yes" or "no" situation.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 4:35pm by Allegory
#203 Jul 03 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys are taking what I'm saying and the original concept of this thread way out of proportion.

The main complaint is "there are only 2 tank jobs", when the fact is that there is indeed more than two. While some may not be as effective in certain situations they each have there moments and CAN and many times are effective. I never disagreed with anyone, I only offer the explanation that SE did in fact give us more than 2 choice for tank, and it's the elitest nature/human nature in the player base that won't accept anything different than what has become what you call a the "only choice", when there is in FACT other choices. I'm not saying every job can tank, I'm saying SE provided us with more than 2.

Quote:
You can throw out all the random insults you want, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. For general leveling, pld and nin were better tanks.


I'm not trying to insult anyone nor am I trying to entice a flame war. I'm just saying there are options within what we have now. You guys are just getting all puffed up over a suggestion that we look to playing the non-cookie-cutter roles.
#204 Jul 03 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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There are only 2 "real tank jobs", its a simple as that. All jobs can sub whm and support, this doesn't mean every job is a support job. Every job can deal damage, this doesn't mean every job is a DD job, it goes by how effective can it be. So by effectiveness, there are only 2 real tank jobs, it doesn't matter that you can get by (yes get by) with different combos sometimes. You can get by with whm/nin (in dd gear) being a dd, this doesn't make whm a dd job.



Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 7:36pm by HocusP
#205 Jul 03 2009 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Ishbubjr wrote:
The main complaint is "there are only 2 tank jobs", when the fact is that there is indeed more than two. While some may not be as effective in certain situations they each have there moments and CAN and many times are effective.

There are only two tank jobs. In MMORPGs, the only viable option is the optimal one. If it isn't optimal, then it isn't viable. Sams and Mnks aren't optimal tanks, and therefore aren't viable tanks. They might as well be Blm for all the tanking good they do.

Why aren't Rdm melee DD? They are certainly capable of hitting the mob and using weapon skills. The reason RDM aren't melee DD is because they aren't optimal for it; other jobs do better melee DD than Rdm.

You're either the best at something in an MMORPG--be that healing, tanking, buffing, or whatever other roles are possible--or you're worthless at it. There is very little middle ground. "Half as good" is "no good." This is why job/class balances are so very important to so many players, because being less than equal to another class by even a small bit is basically making you job/class obsolete.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 10:30pm by Allegory
#206 Jul 04 2009 at 4:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory
Quote:
There are only two tank jobs. In MMORPGs, the only viable option is the optimal one. If it isn't optimal, then it isn't viable. Sams and Mnks aren't optimal tanks, and therefore aren't viable tanks. They might as well be Blm for all the tanking good they do.




Salvage sais hi

Everything is relative, given the situation
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#207 Jul 04 2009 at 8:20 AM Rating: Default
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Salvage sais hi

Everything is relative, given the situation


Thats one situation that is not even true anymore, because you now start off with a treasure chest with tons of stuff in it. Allegory is right in everything that was said, as I explained earlier. Every job can do every role, this doesn't make every job, classified as every role. All melee dd can sub whm and support but that doesn't make them support jobs, because it goes by how effective are they, and there are only 2 effective tank jobs in 99% of situations. This results in the game having two "real" tank jobs.
#208 Jul 05 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
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So what would you call the optimal tank for Salvage? Considering Penance, SB etc... I wouldn't say mnk is far away from it, but I am not an elite Salvage player so i will not claim it.
But since you're saying it's not true, please share your thought on what really is optimal, and please excuse any spelling mistakes, it's not my birth language XD
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#209 Jul 05 2009 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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XI has plenty of jobs that can tank, but we as players have evolved past the point of using them efficiently. and most of all we always have to kiss the butts of our healers and they have become so lazy from what they use to be.
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DRK's do it Hard and Slow. MNK's do it with both hands. RNG's do it from across the room. THF's do it from behind. BST's do it with animals. DRG's do it just to get noticed. SAM's do it alot. NIN's do it with imaginary friends. PLD's flash you then do it. RDM's want to do it but no one lets them. WAR's do it then brag about it. BLM's do it then blame it on the tank.
#210 Jul 10 2009 at 3:41 AM Rating: Default
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WAR was the only tank when FFXI started PLD and NIN came with expansions and NIN wasnt even meant to be a tank so saying PLD and NIN are the only 2 ''real'' tank jobs is incorrect.
And saying that the optimal tank is the only viable option is also incorrect.. in plenty of party´s i had PLD wasn´t wanted at all cause the dual war combo was more efficient in exp per hour and didnt have any problem tanking at all.
Sure PLD is a better tank then WAR but that doesnt mean its more efficient in all cases.. since PLD is a meat tank it is actually uneffcient in certain cases.

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 7:42am by BaasP
#211 Jul 10 2009 at 4:17 AM Rating: Decent
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BaasP wrote:
And saying that the optimal tank is the only viable option is also incorrect.. in plenty of party´s i had PLD wasn´t wanted at all cause the dual war combo was more efficient in exp per hour and didnt have any problem tanking at all.

You do see the complete affirmation of "the optimal tank is the only viable option," in your statement right?
#212 Jul 10 2009 at 4:57 AM Rating: Default
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Yes and if u read the rest u can also see im saying that the ''optimal'' tank isnt always the most efficient.
Ive said it because it is true that PLD is the best tank in game if you compare it to WAR theyre not in the same league actually HOWEVER the point is that there can be other tanks in alot of scenarios that are just as viable or even more efficient then PLD or NIN who are the only viable options according to you cause they are ''optimal''.
Pretty much what i am saying is that whats considered optimal isnt always that optimal in certain scenarios and alot of people tend to forget that cause they dont try to look outside the box aka stereotypes.
#213 Jul 10 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Default
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Oh and if you meant that in my scenario the 2 WARS were the only viable option cause they were more efficient then PLD in that case then thats not true... PLD or NIN for that matter are still VIABLE options in that scenario.. even if it might take a lil bit away from the exp per hour doesnt mean it isnt viable anymore.
Dont just read what u want to read i think u understood what i meant without having to clarify myself further.

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 9:06am by BaasP
#214 Jul 10 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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BaasP wrote:
Dont just read what u want to read i think u understood what i meant without having to clarify myself further.

I'm not. What you're saying is exactly my point, you just don't seem to realize that. I actually have already been over the war/nin situation, though you seemed to have missed it.
Allegory wrote:
Those are specialized situations. Yes I've done the dual war/nin tanks. I've done mana burns. I've done bone parties. For the vast majority of situations though pld and nin do far superior.

I also clarified that were was a little wiggle room, but it's incredibly small. That is, if paladin tanks offer 5000 exp an hour and ninja tanks over 5001 exp an hour no one is going to say "We can't take a pld; it isn't optimal." However, if they swap to a Sam or Mnk tank and see their exp drop by 30-40%, then they're going to reject that class as a tank, unless they're incredibly desperate.

Lotro has a huge problem with Champions right now because they are basically beaten in the single target dps department by hunters. The only reason they are even allowed in raids is because there are certain battles designed to be won only with a Champion, because of their aoe capabilities. Aside from that one fight, the rest of the time they are dead weight to raid groups.

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 8:32am by Allegory
#215 Jul 10 2009 at 5:44 AM Rating: Default
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Ok so i missed those points sorry for that.. however i think there would be alot more situations where other jobs besides PLD and NIN would be viable tanks if people would just try different setups instead of being stereotypical all the time... in my days of FFXI ive had some weird weird setups (because there was pretty much nothing else to team up with unless you were going to wait for 4 hours) and some of them worked surprisingly well to the point where theyd even match the stereotypical setups and because the setups was so different from the usual it was also more fun the play in that group.
People should think outside the box and consider other jobs viable as well instead of just sticking with what they think is optimal... how can u even know its optimal if u havent tried anything else..
I really hope people will be more open minded in FFXIV then in most of the other MMORPGS.
#216 Jul 10 2009 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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BaasP wrote:
however i think there would be alot more situations where other jobs besides PLD and NIN would be viable tanks if people would just try different setups instead of being stereotypical all the time...

They have tried them, and for the most part they don't work. Drg are just not good tanks for the vast majority of situations. Their armor isn't great and they have abilities that lose hate. It's not that people haven't tried it or that they haven't "thought outside the box," but that Drg just plain doesn't work.

Believe me, people have been trying crazy things. Manaburns and bone parties are a testament to this. I even remember the DD Nin/blm who used elemental staffs and rotated their jutsu to play a caster nin. People do experiment, but some combinations, strategies, and ideas just do not work.
BaasP wrote:
in my days of FFXI ive had some weird weird setups (because there was pretty much nothing else to team up with unless you were going to wait for 4 hours) and some of them worked surprisingly well to the point where theyd even match the stereotypical setups and because the setups was so different from the usual it was also more fun the play in that group.

Those situations tend to be rare and circumstantial. They're the exception rather than the rule.

In BCNM40 Steamed Sprouts a DD tank like Mnk, Sam, or War was actually best. Nin and Pld were absolutely terrible. That has to do with the fact that the mandies weren't very threatening individually and the need to put out burst threat to pull mandies off the bard. In most exp setups it would not have worked well.

There was that strange period where mazurka put out a lot of hate and you saw brd/nin tanks, but once again that is a very specialized situations and wasn't at all possible before brds obtained mazurka.
#217 Jul 10 2009 at 6:26 AM Rating: Default
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These situations might be circumstantial and maybe are more exception then the rule but that doesnt change the fact that these situations are in fact present.
And sure there were the pioneers that have tried alot of combinations but those people are very few in number most of the people will only do what they know has been tried and tested instead of experimenting themselves thus not thinking outside of the box...
Cause im pretty certain if the majority of the people would experiment more instead of being stereotypes there would be alot more setups and combinations for alot of things.
#218 Jul 10 2009 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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BaasP wrote:
These situations might be circumstantial and maybe are more exception then the rule but that doesnt change the fact that these situations are in fact present.

Yes, but they're inconsequential. It's not worth mentioning the one time where a party of all Bst works very well, such as Steamed Sprouts BCNM40, because in general all Bst parties don't work very well. You're trying to play a semantic game here. It's dishonest to say that a class can fulfill a role when 99% of the time it cannot.
BaasP wrote:
And sure there were the pioneers that have tried alot of combinations but those people are very few in number most of the people will only do what they know has been tried and tested instead of experimenting themselves

It only takes one person to prove a concept for it to catch on. Ideas that work well, like ninja tanking, catch on and become popular. Ideas that fail, like Blm tanking, fade into obscurity. The problem here is that you are choosing to believe that because no one is using a blm tank currently, that it has never been tested. When it is more likely that you're not seeing it because it failed the test.

The reason you don't see Rdm tanking often isn't because no one has yet to tried it, but because people tried it and it didn't work very well. If I had premium a could search for a guide in the Rdm forum where someone tried very hard to convince others with his testing that Rdm tanks could work.
BaasP wrote:
Cause im pretty certain if the majority of the people would experiment more instead of being stereotypes there would be alot more setups and combinations for alot of things.

No, there wouldn't.
#219 Jul 10 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
No, there wouldn't.
personally i think if the majority would try more there would be more options.
But i guess im being off topic i do agree with the OP that there should be more specialized tank jobs in the game.
#220 Jul 10 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The reason you don't see Rdm tanking often isn't because no one has yet to tried it, but because people tried it and it didn't work very well. If I had premium a could search for a guide in the Rdm forum where someone tried very hard to convince others with his testing that Rdm tanks could work.


RDM tanking has been proven more than effective end game, easily keeping hate & mitigation caps maxed. It just takes noticeably more effort & gear to reach that level while average NIN & PLD can come close without trying. Top players in RDM, NIN, or PLD can tank any HNM/God/Jailer with max efficiency when it's all said & done though. They're indistinguishable for the most part.

Course it has little to do with the actual argument. Need more tank jobs!
#221 Jul 10 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Jobangles wrote:
Top players in RDM, NIN, or PLD can tank any HNM/God/Jailer with max efficiency when it's all said & done though. They're indistinguishable for the most part.

Unfortunately I've been out of the FFXI loop for quite some time so I really have no idea what goes on at end game anymore. So you'll have to forgive me if the details of my point are wrong.
#222 Jul 10 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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He's right about RDM at end game, as is the person who commented about Salvage.. But the issue here goes beyond tanking for specific end game situations. It's pretty much understood that there are optimal ways to do things for certain end-game functions and we all build around that. That's fine - but the fact that there are very limited options throughout the entire leveling process is what causes bottlenecks in people getting to those end game scenarios where their job might shine.

You aren't going to see Monks get invited to xp parties as a tank after a certain level (if at all), so what good does their proficiency in *Salvage* do them? What we are talking about here is that there are only two jobs that people seek out when it's time to build a party, and the other jobs who can *get by* aren't expected to fill that role because it requires more effort on everyone's part to make it happen. They are last resort.

**** is situational is the common theme in XI, but in a lot of cases, **** is far too situational.
#223 Jul 24 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Default
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Post #10 /hurray! Are we done here?
#224Clefairy, Posted: Jul 30 2009 at 7:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That's because your a goddamned elitist prick who doesn't care aout anyting but "the best". I don't have the pick of the g***amn litter every time I log on.
#225 Jul 30 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Clefairy wrote:
Sorry. I had to get that out of my system.

Well I hope you feel better, though you did manage to get upset for no reason.

It has absolutely nothing to do with elitism and everything to do with common sense. It's not that I'd doing, but you're doign it to; everyone is doing it whether you like it or not.

If car salesman A offers to sell you a vehicle for $10,000 and car salesman B offers to sell you the exact same, literally, vehicle for $5,000 which offer would you take? Is it elitist to pick the better deal? Are people who clip coupons from newspapers elitists?

When a pld/war is LFG and a sam/thf is looking for a group, which are you going to invite as your tank? Is it elitist to invite the pld over the sam? Is 95+% of the game population elitist?

It's how every game has been, is, and always will be. Rather than blame the players who will always make the same choice until the end of time, it might be smarter to push for developers to focus more on balance so that players can't possibly discriminate.
#226 Jul 30 2009 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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nah, that name isnt catchy enough, Final war of Fantasy sounds better. yea no need to put number in there since this is the first one in series :P
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#227 Jul 30 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Default
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Well I hope you feel better, though you did manage to get upset for no reason.

It has absolutely nothing to do with elitism and everything to do with common sense. It's not that I'd doing, but you're doign it to; everyone is doing it whether you like it or not.

If car salesman A offers to sell you a vehicle for $10,000 and car salesman B offers to sell you the exact same, literally, vehicle for $5,000 which offer would you take? Is it elitist to pick the better deal? Are people who clip coupons from newspapers elitists?

When a pld/war is LFG and a sam/thf is looking for a group, which are you going to invite as your tank? Is it elitist to invite the pld over the sam? Is 95+% of the game population elitist?

It's how every game has been, is, and always will be. Rather than blame the players who will always make the same choice until the end of time, it might be smarter to push for developers to focus more on balance so that players can't possibly discriminate.


100% true on every point.
#228Clefairy, Posted: Jul 30 2009 at 2:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) My point is: If a pld/war was LFG then i'd send an invite to him first. The problem is if there ISN'T a pld/war online. Then what? If you want to make a party, what are you going to do? I always try to get a bard, etc. for every party but I can make do without one. Unless a 500k hourglass or 99 KSNM are involved, it's a game. Making 25k/hr is nice, but some people want to actually PLAY the game and not wait for two and a half weeks for a two bard party. Not everyone plays a job because it scores the most experience points or because it's most wanted at endgame. People don't always play Red Mage to be an enfeebler or play Thief because they love hate control. People play those jobs because there is something about them that attracts them to that job. There are Dark Knights that don't skill up thier magic or people who level Summoner only for promies, and if they are taken out of an exp party or zerg, they cannot do anything. I watched a lot of summoners totally ***** up a Promy Boss becasue everyone just decided to lean on Summoner and not bring anima, etc. I've cleared promies lots of times w/o summoner becasue it takes 15 minutes to get anima, and it could takes hous to get a summoner.
#229 Jul 30 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Clefairy wrote:
The problem is if there ISN'T a pld/war online.

That isn't the scenario we're dealing with. Then it's a race between your tolerance for low exp and your frustration with no being able to get a group. I'm sure people would let blm tank as well if they got desperate enough, but the bulk of the time players aren't that desperate. In end game they certainly aren't that desperate. Whenever players have a choice they, they will always pick the best choice. Most of the time players do have a choice.

Will I eat worms? Sure, if I'm starving to death. Otherwise I'll grill myself some hamburgers and toss myself a salad.
Clefairy wrote:
Not everyone plays a job because it scores the most experience points or because it's most wanted at endgame.

Certainly true, but we aren't discussing why play choose to play certain classes; we're discussing why players choose to play with certain classes. The bulk of the reason is that the class performs a certain role best or nearly the best.
Clefairy wrote:
The thing I hate about tanks is, this game relies too much on one "tank" to take all the damage. The other front line fighters in the group start becoming complacent escpecally with those with a ninja support job. I every other RPG i've played making sre EVERYONE's defensive gear was up to date.

You mean console RPGs? Because most every popular MMORPG has been focused around a single tank who focuses on defense and threat while everyone else focuses on damage, healing, etc. without regard for their defense. FFXI, WoW, Lotro, WAR, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and many more.
Clefairy wrote:
In this one people fight weak a** mobs for exp in the laziest way possible. Most people want an "efficent" setup because any strategy relies on people actually thinking and using their brains and most videogamers today suck.

The most efficient setup is specifically the result of people thinking strategically. Do you think people just "accidentally" optimized exp/hour?
Clefairy wrote:
The thing about damage dealers is the lack the ability to take personal responsibilty for themselves.

This is where you really begin to make very little sense.
Clefairy wrote:
They don't want to cast spells

Unless they are mages... or drk who need to stun for some reason.
Clefairy wrote:
they don't want to use abilites

Except that they do? What DD doesn't use their job abilities?
Clefairy wrote:
they don't want to WS

Except that they do? What DD doesn't use their TP?
Clefairy wrote:
they won't pull hate off a monster that's beating on a mage, etc. Blue Mage, Dark Knight, Dancer, etc.

Except that when it is absolutely necessary a good DD will. Though most of the time they either can't (because FFXI has so few abilities) or it's a really bad idea.
Clefairy wrote:
yet the only thing anyone cares about is damage.

Usually they don't, which is why they hold back so that hate stays on teh tank and the healer doesn't have to heal them instead. But damage is their job. A mnk that isn't dealing damage well is like a whm who doesn't heal or a pld who doesn't tank well.
Clefairy wrote:
Sometimes, I just wish peoplewould play the d*mn game.

They are playing. The problem you're having is that they aren't playing it the way you want them to. I'm sorry I guess?
#230 Jul 30 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The thing about damage dealers is the lack the ability to take personal responsibility for themselves. They don't want to cast spells, they don't want to use abilities, they don't want to WS, they won't pull hate off a monster that's beating on a mage, etc.


Please don't make generalized statements. It's insulting to people that DO everything that you say they don't. It also makes you sound ignorant, which is never constructive to your argument.

Quote:
My point is: If a pld/war was LFG then i'd send an invite to him first.


Stop right there. What you've just typed as your opening sentence only furthers the point Allegory is trying to make. That people are constantly seeking the best options available to them. Obviously, when those options are not available to them, alternatives are needed. It doesn't make them comparable to the ideal by any means.
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#231 Jul 30 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Haven't played the game since 07 so oh well ;x

If you have a PLD and a RNG (in full DMG oriented gear)
And you have a WAR and a MNK (both in a balanced, or more DEF than usual set and preparation), ideally, they should be able to do about the same. I think that's kind of what they wanted to go for, but just giving the PLD team the up in organization (effieciency, usually being the result, depending on the scale of battle).

When i first started, I imagined the melee classes in 3 categories, kinda:

Specialized DEF, Balanced, and Specialized DMG. Supposedly DRK and RNG for example would be in specialized DMG lol, while MNK and WAR were balanced (that was my presumtion), etc. If SE did a little more nudging and tweaking, I think it could have been working well and apparent. I don't think there needs to be more specialized tanking, but there's always going to be balance issues, any way you slice it. And if you look at the origins of the problems being complained about, I think that's mostly what it is about~

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 9:08pm by Swan
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#232 Jul 30 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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And DNC, unless you want to claim the second job in the game with a provoke ability have it just for cosmetics.


I assume it was put there primarily to allow /dnc to replace /war, at least as Square's intention. I'm not convinced they seriously expected DNC main to compete with PLD and NIN for tanking. (Certainly if they did, they failed --- DNC can tank some stuff, but in the same way that WAR or SAM can. They're not a tank for the truly hard stuff)

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#233 Jul 31 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
Well if taking damage and simply negating damage are the only two means of tanking what about converting damage? Crystals are said to play a different roll in the game why not have a means of them being converted in sense of a stoneskin? Damage that you take is instantly transferred into crystal which has a breaking point after a certain amount is dealt. Your taking damage, and negating it at the same time.

What if there was more than just battles where you have tank(s), healer(s), DD(s) and looked at different game mechanics such as traps/lures. Change the point that you don't merely have a tank but a different means in controlling a battle. Pitfalls, stun traps, Knockdown traps. An entire battle based on luring an enemy and lowering it's hp then straight tanking like we have now.

We need different mechanics not the same tanking situation we've had for the past years. We don't need more tanks but a different outlook at how to attempt things.


Edited, Jul 31st 2009 4:07pm by Kinoki
#234 Jul 31 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Anna having diarrhea of the mouth again, huh?

I don't know where you are getting off with your comments about DD's, unless you think that everyone should cast every spell they have on Colibri and Greater Colibri, Hasso, Warcry and Jump aren't JAs, and all those Tachi: Gekkos and Penta Thrusts are just DD's dancing around with flowers in their hair.

This thread started out as a good discussion about ways to improve the tanking abilities of jobs other than PLD and NIN, and now it's just turned into a pretty hostile flame-fest. Don't resurrect threads just because you have a grudge against everyone who remembers whm/thf.

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 4:11pm by Torrence
#235 Aug 01 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Its complete bull to say that without a tank role there would be no teamwork! Look at merit parties! The melee all work together, as a team, to help mitigate damage overall, sharing hate and switching between offense and defense. If they don't work together to mitigate damage, then too much healing will be required and the party's performance will suffer greatly.

If everybody had either tanking ability or healing ability, there would not be a need for a single tank or healer. What people hate about tanking and healing is that the responsibility is dumped on a single person. This wouldn't remove skill or teamwork for the same reason merit parties scale with skill/teamwork. Its not like everyone is working with infinite mitigation or healing.

I think it would add more skill/teamwork, because you have to go "Oh, so and so's defense has been broken, I should put up mine and take hate." You have to think about your team mates and switch between tanking/DDing or healing/DDing as appropriate, instead of just "I just DD." "I just tank." "I just heal." You'll have to do whatever is best at the moment, based on the status and resources of not just yourself but your allies.

DNC is a good example of how healers should be, IMO, since it is active in combat, has various utility and healing, but finite resources, and SAM and maybe NIN is a good example of how melee should be, IMO, because it switches between defensive and offensive modes, and judging when more of one is needed. Third eye and shadows aren't perfect defenses, so melee have to work as a team, sharing the job.
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#236 Aug 01 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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456 posts
Quote:
Its complete bull to say that without a tank role there would be no teamwork! Look at merit parties! The melee all work together, as a team, to help mitigate damage overall, sharing hate and switching between offense and defense. If they don't work together to mitigate damage, then too much healing will be required and the party's performance will suffer greatly.


Merit parties is a bad example because look how weak the mobs are that you are fighting. Thats like saying bouncing hate from blm to blm could tank because it works in merit parties.

Quote:

If everybody had either tanking ability or healing ability, there would not be a need for a single tank or healer. What people hate about tanking and healing is that the responsibility is dumped on a single person. This wouldn't remove skill or teamwork for the same reason merit parties scale with skill/teamwork. Its not like everyone is working with infinite mitigation or healing.


This is like reinventing the wheel. The basic mmorpg structure is tank,dd,heal,support. I don't see them changing the basic structure of mmorpgs.
#237 Aug 02 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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2,535 posts
HocusP wrote:
This is like reinventing the wheel. The basic mmorpg structure is tank,dd,heal,support. I don't see them changing the basic structure of mmorpgs.


Fixed. Dedicated support is a role that really only exists in FFXI.
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