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Theories on how magic will work.Follow

#1 Jun 29 2009 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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I like to think FFXIV will be a polar opposite of FFXI's engine for magic. You can't have the exact same system for a fresh game. So here are some of my theories are listed below.

Because FFXIV won't have a level system, what if the spells duration/effect were adjusted according to your "growth" chart. For example, Protect/Shell will reduce physical or magical defense by 50% like most FF games, but the duration will be quite short at the beginning. As your mage's magic abilities grow(level up), you'll learn new spells and abilities. So of course it won't be as feasible to recast Pro/Shell as often then. Apply the same theory to haste. The mana costs, recast, duration, and potency would all improve based on your skill. Kinda like a skill up in FFXI. Mage's enhancing skill rises 0.1 points.

The more destructive your casting style, the more your MP pool would increase along with your magic attack rating. Lost spells like Meteor and Ultima would only return if you casting style was so reckless, those spells became available due to desperation. Imagine a system where your behavior would cause your character to summon their inner power like a customizable 2hr in FFXI. My inspiration for the idea is taken from none other than FFIV's mage Tellah. Granted the use of Meteor by Tellah was scripted, but the potential is there. If your mana pool was exhausted, you would give up your HP in exchange borrowing for the extra mana required to cast the nuke. Consider that feature a real time Convert casting cycle.

Comments, questions, feedback?
#2 Jun 29 2009 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
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In terms of using magic in gameplay, I personally think something along the lines of the 'crystal chronicles' casting system would be pretty cool, i.e. you can move a little target to where you want the spell to be cast, and can stack them on top of each other for a more powerful spell, or (as in the newer CC games) you can combine two separate spells into one.

I can't really speak for how well it would work and perhaps it would get tedious, all I know is I had a hella good time playing the DS one with friends and doing it.

I like your idea, I think a return to the more classic spell style would be cool, like more powerful buffs that last a shorter time, so you want to place them at a specific time that works best for the group etc.

In terms of skillups, I think it would be a good idea as long as they're not too difficult to obtain, at least up to a respectable level. I also don't want them to be as random as FFXI, there should be a cap on how many times you can cast a spell without getting a skillup (I.e. "I've casted Protect 5 times, and now I get a definite 0.2 skillup), so you don't end up waiting god **** ages and getting unlucky with a single 0.1 after 30 minutes of play.

Edited, Jun 29th 2009 6:05am by Dlaqev
#3 Jun 30 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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I hope they bring back all the spells though. Like float, confuse, Meteor (for playable characters), comet, and ultima spell (for the best HNM in the game or a last boss in one of the expansions, or at least a cutscene.)

You should be able to combine spells like if 3 blms have the spell fire 1.
They should be able to cast a fire 1, the 2nd blm casts a fire 1 on top of it and it turns into a fire 2, then a 3rd blm casts fire 1 and it turns into a fire 3. (like a charged up magic spell).
I also hope they bring in rare magic that can only be obtained from some HNMs like rare/ex scrolls.

Very interesting to see how the guides in this game are going to explain the monsters. (You must be level XX to fight this monster which is level XX?) When there is no level system in the game lol.
#4 Jun 30 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Only problem would be that when it seems you get punished for being low level making the starting levels horrible for casters. I mean mana cost, recast, duration, and potency all improving as your level up? Also your mana pool increases as you level up too? I think it is a good idea but could use some work.

Edit to add example:
So say you have protect at first and it lasts 5 minutes and costs 20 mp and your mana pool is 50. You get to stage 2 and everything is improved 2X. So it last 10 minutes, costs 10 mp and your mana pool is 100. Rinse repeat. I said it was a good idea but could use work.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 5:06pm by Parade

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 5:07pm by Parade
#5 Jun 30 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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taruwaruSeraph wrote:

You should be able to combine spells like if 3 blms have the spell fire 1.
They should be able to cast a fire 1, the 2nd blm casts a fire 1 on top of it and it turns into a fire 2, then a 3rd blm casts fire 1 and it turns into a fire 3. (like a charged up magic spell).
I also hope they bring in rare magic that can only be obtained from some HNMs like rare/ex scrolls.


I like this idea. Melee can skillchain, why can't Mages manachain?

:p



EDIT:

Parade wrote:

Only problem would be that when it seems you get punished for being low level making the starting levels horrible for casters. I mean mana cost, recast, duration, and potency all improving as your level up? Also your mana pool increases as you level up too? I think it is a good idea but could use some work.


Absolutely right. You skills should not at all increase as you level up. What a silly notion.

Really, did you think at all before posting that?

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 4:33pm by Torrence
#6 Jun 30 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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"Torrence" wrote:

Absolutely right. You skills should not at all increase as you level up. What a silly notion.

Really, did you think at all before posting that?


Yes I did, as I read it, magic cost for the higher spells will improve meaning the cost to cast a spell will go down while all the other stats will increase from duration to effectiveness. Also as you get stronger you get more mp according to TC.

So say you have protect at first and it lasts 5 minutes and costs 20 mp and your mana pool is 50. You get to stage 2 and everything is improved 2X. So it last 10 minutes, costs 10 mp and your mana pool is 100. Rinse repeat. I said it was a good idea but could use work.

Mana cost should increase as your spells get more powerful, why would a spell that last half the time cost twice as much if it is the exact same spell.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 5:05pm by Parade

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 5:09pm by Parade
#7 Jun 30 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Parade wrote:


So say you have protect at first and it lasts 5 minutes and costs 20 mp and your mana pool is 50. You get to stage 2 and everything is improved 2X. So it last 10 minutes, costs 10 mp and your mana pool is 100. Rinse repeat. I said it was a good idea but could use work.


Let me explain a few things. First of all, you must forget the way FFXI works. I don't believe mana recovery will be as much as an issue in FFXIV. The whole concept of resting for MP probably won't be around. I think our recovery of MP will hinge more on other methods that helps mage jobs keep up with melee for damage or curing duties.

Now when you first start off in FFXIV as a BLM for example. Expect a smaller MP pool and lack of higher tier spells just like every FF game. Say like in your example protect costs 20mp. That's fine as long as MP recovery options exist, not resting FFXI standards. FFXII's standard was much better for mana recovery. By that I mean both the use of charges and recovery MP as you walk. I like to combine both games ideas for FFXIV though. All mages should have auto-refresh to some degree. Now here's the tricky part. Based on your exhaustion of MP, your character's auto refresh will recover more based on your play style. So in other words, if you want say Auto refresh tier V, you'll have to be a chain nuking or curing fool. The higher the tier, the more mp you recover per tick. Mana users all have a stigma in FFXI. BLU and BLM are 2nd class DD's in the eyes of community for XP/merit parties all because of how this game refused to balance magic users. Even PLD's improvements aren't enough to save them for merits.

One of the reasons why SE can't improve the MP recovery in this game is because of the soloing unbalance it would cause. RDM already can solo most of the Gods and HNM's. The system itself is broken all around the board. The Sanction refresh was SE's attempt at trying to balance mage and melee jobs. It failed and this is why I'm suggesting other measures for FFXIV.
#8 Jul 01 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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After reading the OP, I originally thought of something like an exhaustion meter instead of mp. For example, You have a pool of 10 points and certain spells cost 1 point while the stonger versions cost more. 5 points will be refreshed every X seconds so you can cast what you want to play aggressively or defensively based off of what's still available to you. As your skill rises, the number of points available in your pool rise as well, however there would still be no effect on the cost of points for each spell unless granted through one of the other methods.

Now, going off the fact that there will be a group dynamic like FFXI, where each job is going to fill a specific role in a party, I think mana usage will be similar to how it already is. A standard MP pool based off of job type, level (skill), character traits. Additional changes then come in based off of gear, consumables, traits, etc., and a set cost for each spell before any kind of Conserve MP trait takes effect.

I would like to think that there will be several different types of ways to regain your mp back though. Adequate refresh is a complete game changer when it comes to soloing or grouping and I believe they will answer this mostly through spells and abilities like convert and chivalry while enhancing it with something along the lines of Aura's or Totems so that there are several different options when forming a group. I would like to see every casting job have some way to regain some portion of their MP back, even if some are slower than others, as it could help improve the soloing ability of the mana based jobs. The answer to a more aggressive casting style can be to boost the number of MP regen methods or the number of MP recovered as you skill up. Could you imagine 5 or 6 desperate BLM firing off a spell like meteor? That might be a little game breaking unless meteor wasn't really worth it's salt.

No matter what it is, I hope that the planning and coordination FFXI currently has now to pull something off is still present instead of a blind free for all we could see in these many vs. many type of battles when MP is less of an issue or no issue at all.


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#9 Jul 01 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You should be able to combine spells like if 3 blms have the spell fire 1.
They should be able to cast a fire 1, the 2nd blm casts a fire 1 on top of it and it turns into a fire 2, then a 3rd blm casts fire 1 and it turns into a fire 3. (like a charged up magic spell).


I swear, when I first started playing FF11, I always talked to my friends about this.

We were thinking that there should be certain spells, that would require multiple casters to perform. Say Meteor for example, can be a cast spell only if you have X (insert mage combinations) mages. Doesn't have to stack, like Fire 1 x3 = Fire 3. But something like forbidden spells, like Ultima or something else where a single mage by themselves are not powerful enough to conjure it without the assistance of other mages. In fact, if you remember, the opening movie for FF11 had something similar to that. I remember a group of Tarutaru mages conjured up what seemed like a Meteor spell on the Behemoths. Funny how SE have the idea but did not apply it in game.

And the mana pool part, made a lot of sense to me. If your mana points reaches zero, there should be some type of ability for the mages, which allows the player to use their hit points as temporary replacement for mana points. This concept was introduced in FF11 as well. There was a interesting story line for Windurst about the Tarutaru summoner who sacrificed his life essence to summon Fenrir to protect his people. So, sacrificing your life force to compensate shortage of spiritual power is not a new concept. SCH's abilities is not exactly the same thing we're talking about here but at least some similar ideas were put into good use.
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#10 Jul 01 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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This is just a cosmetic feature, but something I liked in EQOA was that you could see ranged weapons' ammo flying to their target and with some of the spells you could see an energy ball going to the target.

This also lead to a fun Christmas item called Snowballs that let us shoot energy balls at each other.
#11 Jul 02 2009 at 12:21 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
We were thinking that there should be certain spells, that would require multiple casters to perform. Say Meteor for example


I swear I also thought that this would have been implemented into FFXI. Even the opening cutscene has a group of Taru mages working together to cast Meteor.

Then they had the gate under windy that required three mages to open, and I thought... this must lead to a combined spell sometime.

Then the 3 kids from CoP cast meteor together, and I thought to myself, this is it. Only a matter of time until you need a red mage, white mage, and black mage to cast meteor.

And then... nothing.

I agree, make some very high level, high cost spells like meteor or comet that require a combination of casters.

Just don't do it with an every day spell like cure II or fire II.
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#12 Jul 02 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
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While I wouldn't be against duo/trio castings, I want to address the balance issue for soloing. The truth is, soloing is broken in this game especially if your name happens to be Avesta. Not only has he abused the game code on RDM, but on his BLM as well. Bind is broken in FFXI, it was never adjusted. Every single NM trigger in WoTG Beastman zones are immune to Bind/Gravity for a reason. Now let me address how soloing will be different in FFXIV.

For starters, SE won't allow Utsusemi to be exploited this time around. That alone kills 95% of RDM extreme soloing. Moving on to BLM, they only have 3 spells for soloing. Sleep(GA), Bind, and Gravity(if sub rdm). If your NM is immune to all 3, BLM's only way left to solo is the kiting method which revolves around poor pathing for the mob and movement speed.

Now SE has stated for the record that FFXIV will be solo friendly. However, the above examples are not what SE has in mind. The enfeebling nerf that caused the uproar following the last patch was done on purpose. Mages were ****** of all the gear and work they did went up in smoke, but rest assured, extreme soloing won't have a place in FFXIV like it does now.

So this leads to my point that auto-refresh won't be a bad thing, but required to retain balance. Melee jobs don't run out of gas like us mages do. So unless SE introduced some sort of fatigue system that slowed down the melee attacks to balance, I don't see how giving a mage refresh abilities would be a bad idea. I don't believe mages will be able to sleep everything in FFXIV or use a cheap Bind spell to abuse the code.
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