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quests, story, exp and you. Follow

#1 Jun 29 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
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taking a que from the previous thread "Wow is easy" I do hope that FFXIV sticks with the 1 character many jobs system.

FF series have been heavily story based and it's really puts a bad taste in my mouth when if I want to play a difert class, I have to restart the story over again. It's a poor way to stretch content for one, and it's too hard to pretend to experience it with a new set of eyes just because you happen to be on an alt. From the stroy point of view having 1 character helps facilitate the grandure of the FF story. You're 1 character grows with the story as you delve deeper and deeper into the plot. You can switch jobs at any momment but not have to repeat the story. It's a progression that you won't have to double back on.


Same thing with quests with story background. The princess has gone missing, she's been kidnapped by a band of thieves hiding in the forest. you track down the thieves kill em rescue the princess bring her back home and get a reward. You hop on your ranger alt, and the princess has gone missing again! WTF! She's been kidnapped by the thieves you just killed, who are hiding in the same spot in teh same forest and your reward for her safe return is the same. Either the king needs to fork over more money for body guards, the princess needs to quit slumming, or the thieves need to find a new hiding spot. because i'll be damned if I have to rescue her a third time!

SOme people have made posts about there being a hunting guild where you can pick up kill quests for exp/rewards. Basicly it's FoV in a central location. A great idea that doesn't break the story by doubling back on itself. and disguises the mob grind like recent MMO's.

Quests with story backgrounds I hope will be one time deals maybe make them chain quests to add a little more depth to them
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#2 Jun 29 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't really think quests should give EXP. I think the reward for questing should be the story itself.

The end result of having quests give EXP, is players who don't care about the story get funneled through the quests anyway in an attempt to get more EXP

Quests should be something that people do because they want to see the story. Not because it helps them level faster. I think one of the greatest drawbacks in WoW, was the compulsive need to create filler quests to occupy people's time that ultimately obscure the story.

I don't think you can have quests that give EXP without devolving into a point where you start adding quests for the sake of adding quests. I cannot think of a game, MMO or single player, which did not start doing thusly, unless there was absolutely no reward other than the story.

Edited, Jun 29th 2009 1:30pm by Karelyn
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#3 Jun 29 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Couldn't agree more. I like how FF done things, especially with regards to the 1 character many jobs and the Quests were not only enterataining but epic in length. There were also rather a lot thanks to the steady line of expansions. Even the repeatable quests were handled well.

I just hope for better rewards - less RMT and more laid back gaming.
#4 Jun 29 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I just hope for better rewards - less RMT


This made me lol. I also feel that the reward for questing is the story itself, and should not be awarded with EXP. Then again, I see this possibly happening with Quests in XIV.
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#5 Jun 29 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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On the contrary to the Karelyn above and looking at what growth could be. In life if you are sent on a "quest" do you not experience things? A more natural way of growth would be to gain even a minute amount of xp from a quest. Do I think you should be able to blow through the quests like killing X amount of mobs for no reason? **** no. But if I'm sent to slay the dark lord of asskickingness I should at least get some type of experience from slaying him.

On another note I do not want quests to be kill X amount of mobs receive staff of awesome and 60000xp(over exaggeration :p). Or Collect X amount of this item from mob Y for 50000xp. I want an in depth story and reason to the quests I'm doing and a small reward. Not too small mind you but something that reflects the difficulty of the quest.

edit: In light of the idea of no XP/levels and looking at what others seem to be the only logical way to advance would to be gain abilities through "Weapons" maybe even armor. I think that receiving "AP" or it's equivalent with an amount scaled to a quests difficulty would be good as well ^~^.

Edited, Jun 29th 2009 1:52pm by TheFlyingGoat

Edited, Jun 29th 2009 1:53pm by TheFlyingGoat
#6 Jun 29 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Default
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TheFlyingGoat wrote:
On the contrary to the Karelyn above and looking at what growth could be. In life if you are sent on a "quest" do you not experience things? A more natural way of growth would be to gain even a minute amount of xp from a quest.

My comment wasn't one of "Realism in the game" but simply a "Realities of Life" comment.

It's not about the game world, my comment was on human nature. Ultimately, giving rewards for quests beyond the story itself, leads to two major things...

1. A funneling of all players through the quests, including those who don't care about the story.
2. An artificial inflation via filler quests "Go kill 8 wolves," which has shown up in every game I have ever played, single player or MMO, which introduced a quest-like system. INCLUDING Final Fantasy games like FFXII and the Hunts in that game. While there were a handful of stories in the Hunts, they were hidden under a ton of mindless and storyless Hunts.

Based on those two reasons, I think giving rewards for quests (beyond the story itself), ultimately detracts from the story, and weaken it.

...

I think it's important to sometimes sacrifice realism in a game for the sake of improving the gameplay.

Edited, Jun 29th 2009 1:55pm by Karelyn
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#7 Jun 29 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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I see your point. I do also believe that funneling characters through a story just for a reward is a detraction from the actual game. But I also do not fully agree with your point nor do I wish to start an argument on such a trivial thing ^~^. I'll try and spin my idea a different way. Possibly, if one does not receive a reward for completing such a quest or story line. Should one receive XP for lets say upon killing "The Dark Lord of Asskickingness" does one receive some sort of experience or do we merely funnel around the fact that I killed him but did not grow at all. Lets say I kill him ^~^ wooo "TDLoAk" is dead. And one receives lets say 50AP(going by learning from weapons) for slaying him is that more acceptable to you? I do not wish to argue with you merely converse upon our ideas. So maybe not a reward from completing the quest but maybe participating in certain parts of the quest mind you I see where your looking at it. But no reward to quests make your average MMO player more inclined to completely skip over doing quests. Or maybe I'm wrong in thinking that maybe a quest should give XP maybe not just a monetary or item reward.
#8 Jun 29 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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TheFlyingGoat wrote:
Possibly, if one does not receive a reward for completing such a quest or story line. Should one receive XP for lets say upon killing "The Dark Lord of Asskickingness" does one receive some sort of experience or do we merely funnel around the fact that I killed him but did not grow at all.

Yes, I agree. It's silly that endgame bosses in FFXI do not grant EXP. Then again, if we assume that FFXIV will not have downleveling, the point is null anyway... Nobody is going to be killing end-game bosses in an effort to speed up their leveling process :P

The key point I was trying to make is EXP (and rewards in general) should come from one source, and that is the death of a monster. Only rare exceptions should be made, and there should be a plot based reason for the reward you get.

Rewards from quests should be the exception to the rule, not the norm.
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#9 Jun 29 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Rewards from quests should be the exception to the rule, not the norm.


Yes, yes I do believe we have found a good balance to both of our arguments. So lets look a little more at the OP.

"Edited for some spelling"

Quote:
Some people have made posts about there being a hunting guild where you can pick up kill quests for exp/rewards. Basically it's FoV in a central location. A great idea that doesn't break the story by doubling back on itself. and disguises the mob grind like recent MMO's.


Aye or Nay to this Idea?

I for one see it as quite a good Idea for an alternative to hunting things such as Field NM's. But also includes something like the FoV we have now. Without making it be kill X amount of Mobs get xp money and tabs. And on the Same note should NM's give some sort of XP from their defeat. I do believe that they should give a small amount of XP/AP w/e FFXIV will be using and maybe a small reward from the Hunter's Guild upon bringing back proof of the monsters demise.
And if they were to do something like this should we have a time limit on how long it will be before you can take another hunting assignment?
#10 Jun 29 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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i personaly liked the way FF11 did thier mission quests.
if u want to use airships u gota get rank 5, all the while the story is gripping and great.

the only reason y i started CoP missions was because i was so hooked on the story. i could careless about the rewards. the boss fights where hard w/o the proper setup, the CS's were amazing, the plots where good, the maps were a great addition aswell. i loved the promy maps, they looked nice and had a decent challenge.

if FFXIV nails that, ill be hooked. the only problem i had with those missions had to be the length. getting to the promy bosses took a long time, getting to site #a and #b where also to long. if they reduce the time it takes to do missions but keep them at the same diffucility id be happy. maybe something inbetween the CoP missions(long, hard, rewarding) and the ToUG missions(to easy, lame, somewhat rewarding).

a perfect balancing between those 2 would be nice.
#11 Jun 29 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Id like to see quests drop xp. What I wouldnt like to see is a million recycled lame quests that have nothing to do with the story. If I see another Kill 12 boars and collect boar meet quest in EVERY SINGLE LEVELING ZONE IN THE GAME I'm gonna scream. WoW did it, Lotro does it and it drives me nuts. In lotro it gets really bad I actually saw 3 boar killing quests in the same friggin zone. That to me is in-excusable.

Fewer more meaningful quests please! That offer good rewards and exp for the time and effort (which should be alittle more then go kill 12 creatures and bring me back their eyes).

Questing now is a pathetic excuse to go and grind with a little incentive. I'd like to see quests more tied in with the main story. It doesnt have to always push the main story forward but optional side quests should be related to the area of the main story your in at the moment.

**edit** and please no more friggin boars.... like at all. I remember when TBC cameout I was so excited to go to outlands and the first quest I get out there is "Go and kill hellish boars!" Ok... Ive just crossed the portal into an entirely new realm populated by demons and untold ancient evils... and the first thing you want me to do is kill more boars?

Edited, Jun 29th 2009 4:28pm by mezlabor
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#12 Jun 29 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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hey, i <3d the eco-warrior quests in FFXI. me and my BSTs 2hrd slime thingie could solo the Sandy one.
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#13Skeptic, Posted: Jun 29 2009 at 2:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There are Boars in FFXI? News to me.
#14 Jun 29 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I kind of like the idea floating around that everything should give you exp, or AP, or whatever. At least in the sense that everything you do should be helping you progress in some fashion. So if you craft something and it improves your crafting skill, fine no exp. But if it doesn't, then give me a little exp as consolation. If I take part in an event, gimme some exp. It doesn't have to be as much as I would get grinding during that time, just enough so I don't feel like the event is wasting my time.

With that caveat, I would like quests to give exp when none of the activities that make up the quest do so. If I have to get something from a dungeon and kill 50 monsters for 2500 exp, getting 200 exp for completing the quest doesn't make a lot of difference to me. But if I have to run to three different towns exchanging goods (as I figure every rpg has to have the fed ex quests even if only to mock fed ex quests), and I can do so without fighting anything, toss me some exp along with whatever gil or goodwill I'm getting.
#15 Jun 29 2009 at 2:30 PM Rating: Default
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I think for Missions, you should get EXP, for Quests, you should get Conquest Points. (That's if this is in FFXIV)
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#16 Jun 29 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Questing now is a pathetic excuse to go and grind with a little incentive.

As opposed to FFXI's system of grinding with no incentive? Well, none outside of having no other choice. I'm not disagreeing, I'm just pointing out how so many seem to hate this kind of quest yet grinding is what FFXI is based on.

Anyway, I think quests should stay how they are in FFXI, not too many but the ones that are there are meaningful. But I would like more a reward than a little story or 20gil that you get for many of them.
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#17Skeptic, Posted: Jun 29 2009 at 2:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Contradiction. So do you want Quests to stay the same or change?
#18 Jun 29 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
I don't really think quests should give EXP. I think the reward for questing should be the story itself.



I like to see character growth from quests. The idea of personal growth is so intrinsic to the concept of story telling that the lack of any sort of personal growth makes the story seem very impersonal.

However, I don't think "growth" has to mean "XP."

FFXI does a great job of tying non XP character growth to the story. You gain ranks in your nation (which has various benefits), you acquire certain pieces of gear (usually only as the culmination of a long quest, which is >>> the loot pinata approach of WOW, imo.), or unlock privileges like more storage space, a chocobo or airship to ride, or new jobs to play.

Hopefully, FFXIV will largely stick to this formula. Every quest or mission should represent a step in personal growth, but should not be treated as a container to be unlocked merely for the goodies inside.
#19 Jun 29 2009 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Skeptic wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, I think quests should stay how they are in FFXI, not too many but the ones that are there are meaningful. But I would like more a reward than a little story or 20gil that you get for many of them.


Contradiction. So do you want Quests to stay the same or change?


He means he wants everything except for the rewards to stay the same. Which is.. pretty much the same way I feel.
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#20 Jun 29 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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There's no contradiction. I like how FFXI's quests and such are more involved and important, I'd just like a little more reward for doing them. I just mean you don't have to make thousands of quests like WoW has. And not like FFXI doesn't have it's own fetch quests, they're just not worth doing because they often provide litle story and little reward.
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#21 Jun 29 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I made a similar thread about how important story line is in a game and if they do use an ability point system like they did in FF9 where once you learn an ability you equip it with ability points, perhaps the reward could be more AP. And if missions are repeatable the second time you just get gil or an item.
What ever they do I think developing through the story line is a great idea.
#22 Jun 29 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
He means he wants everything except for the rewards to stay the same. Which is.. pretty much the same way I feel.


I agree that the rewards need to be beefed up. Honestly, you should get something mildly tangible as a reward if you did something that required effort. If you did a quest for a blacksmith, but he didn't give you a nice weapon for your troubles something might be considered a little off. I felt a lot of FFXI's quests were like this, you go out of you way for someone and they are like "Oh thanks take this *measly amount of gil*"

However, not every single quest needs to be tied into the story, but they should have something to do with like what's happening in the game world. An MMO might have a good story, but a pretty poorly fleshed out world. It's good to know why different zones are important, information on different species, npcs, and so on.
#23 Jun 30 2009 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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Well, xp rewards from quests are sounding to be a non-issue in a game where the devs have said the standard xp/level system will not be present.

I've given a bit of thought as to how SE might enable progression through the story.

(Incoming TL;DR...you've been warned ;D)

Personally, I'd be disappointed with a system where you slot weapons with stuff that allows you to learn new abilities/spells and/or exist as the sole means of augmenting your stats. It's been done before in other FF games and is sort of the antithesis of what I've understood SE as saying. With that kind of system, your character isn't developing by how you choose to play it, you're choosing how to develop your character and then playing it based on your choices.

My favorite example of an SE game where you truly develop your character based on how you choose to play it is The Last Remnant, and anyone who has played that game knows that not only did it have the most freeform character development style of any SE RPG to date, it was also the least polished, linear, and ultimately disappointing title SE has put out in a long, long time. From horrendous graphic glitches on the Xbox (the platform TLR was initially released on) to noticeable graphics glitches on the PC and code so poorly optimized that my graphics card would hit 103-104 degrees before it forced a hard system reboot, TLR was ultimately so far below what SE is capable of that I can't help but think it was developed as a "test" of the character development concept for FFXIV.

In terms of the "on-use" development, TLR was awesome. Put that same system into an MMO and I think it would be enormously successful. The one crushing drawback to that system was how your overall development was gauged. TLR assigned your entire group (squad) a "Battle Rank" (BR) that started at 1, and increased as you fought monsters in very much the way you might expect a standard xp/level system to work. The difficulty was that it in no way represented the strength of your squad. You could play the game through to BR50 with one squad, start a new game, and get another squad to BR50 that was easily twice as powerful as the group in your first game.

The reason was because your character development was based on what you did in combat and how often you did it, whereas your BR was based in large part on how many fiends you had killed. If you ran around roflstomping groups of easier monsters, your BR would go up fairly quickly but because you were killing each monster so quickly/easily, you weren't getting a lot of use out of your skills. Compare that to the inverse...fighting small groups of very strong monsters where it takes a relatively long time to kill each one, meaning that your kill count (and thus your BR) stays low, but you're using your abilities a lot more often for each monster, so your characters develop faster.

Obviously, the BR system would not be something you could employ in an MMO, not only because it would be worthless for gauging the level of development for you or a potential party member, but because it's irreversible and discouraged grinding on lower level mobs (ie. no fast farming of lowbie zones for basic materials to craft with/sell).

Then a thought occurred to me that a system to gauge your progress in line with a freeform system already exists in FFXI: the nation rank system. As you progress through your nation's story, your rank increases. Take that concept, merge it with a level-sync style skill cap for content (so people can't get carried through by super-powered friends/guildies without the multiple gear set shenanigans we saw in CoP), and then throw in a skill cap system similar to an FFXI level cap (ie. limit break) and you could have a real winner.

I know that's pretty vague, but allow me to expand on it. You start out with your new character with easy access to the basic job archetype skillsets and head out to do a little entry-level solo grinding. Instead of having all skill categories capped at (your_level * 5) like they are in FFXI, they're capped at 50. Grind for a bit, skill up in your favorite categories, and when you get at least one skill to 25 (for example), a quest opens up the progresses the main story arc. Complete this quest (possibly requiring a group) and your skill cap is increased to 75 and you advance to rank 2. Go out and grind a bit more and once you get at least one skill category to 50, another quest opens up. Complete that and your skill cap is increased to 100 and you advance to rank 3. What this means is that for grouping, if someone says that they are rank three, you know they are the FFXI equivalent of a level 15-20 character in terms of their most developed skill categories.

There would be plenty of room for other quest lines branching from the main story arc. They could be side stories for the sake of side stories, side stories for the sake of unlocking new job archetypes (similar to advanced job quests).

I'm a little bit leary about basically suggesting at a system that involves the equivalent of ongoing limit break quests, but there are two aspects to that which I think would make the idea more appealing. The first is that FFXIV is being put forward as a story-driven MMO. If you don't want to take part in the story, a story-driven MMO is maybe not for you. The second is that there was nothing wrong with the concept of a limit break quest to raise your level cap in FFXI...I just took issue with the implementation (ie. epic grinds to account for abysmal drop rates).

The whole idea isn't fully fleshed out...I have ideas on how to account for people who might want to group to develop new archetypes despite what their "main" rank might be, but it's late. Maybe tomorrow ;D
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