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Playable Characters - too Human?Follow

#1 Jun 29 2009 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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This probably qualifies as a rant,
though I'm really just interested in seeing if anyone else is bothered by this.


Take away the tail, give them 5 fingers, and proper posture.
I'm really not sure why Galka qualify as a separate species anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and after 3 years that's possible), but the remaining features that distinguish a Galka from a big male Human are reproduction via Reincarnation and the resulting lack of any particular junk. Differences that won't be recognizable in your day to day MMO affairs...I hope.

It's not so much that the removal of a tail and the addition of a finger constitutes an overwhelming change. But it's just that there was so **** little deviance from the human form to begin with. It's a distinct humanization of an already overwhelmingly humanoid cast of characters.

In a series that has a long standing tradition of inventing some of the more iconic and exotic races to grace the RPG genre, it was a little disappointing in FFXI to see the same Human, BigHuman, SmallHuman and Pointy-EaredHuman trope that's been overplayed aud nauseum in just about every MMO before and since.

And now we're getting it again.

Although I understand the reasoning, that doesn't remove the lingering taste of vanilla.

I know it's a bit early to worry, as new races are still a possibility. But the man in charge, Akihiko Yoshida, has an exceedingly human resume'. Whose contributions in terms of sprinkles and chocolate consist of species explored in the Tactics series of games first. Although I'm not about to question his artistic sensibilities, as a character designer rarely has carte blanche', I just can't shake the whole idea that;

Humantastic PCs of former MMO + Historically Humantastic Art Director = Does not bode well for a creative race.


Edited, Jun 30th 2009 12:03am by Zemzelette
#2 Jun 29 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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What exactly would you have developers do? How would you deviate from humanoid characteristics? Is this a question of too many bipeds or is it simply the fact that none of the races will look like something from a low budget sci-fi channel movie. I'm all for rants, **** they are one of my favorite pastimes, but usually one contains proposed remedies to the perceived problem.
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#3 Jun 29 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair most of the games were dominated by characters that were flat out human. There were a few deviations, sure, but not really among the playable characters. I don't really recall even a lead character as being a non-human, at least in the numbered series. Closest was Zidane, I guess, and even he was basically just a little boy with a tail.

It would be nice to see minotaurs or centaurs from regular lore, or waltzes like someone had a thread going about that everyone rated to oblivion.... But I don't think we should hold our breath.
#4 Jun 29 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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It would be nice to see minotaurs or centaurs from regular lore, or waltzes like someone had a thread going about that everyone rated to oblivion.... But I don't think we should hold our breath.


I, personally, would classify minotaurs and waltzes as humanoid. minotaurs, are by defined lore, half man. As for centaurs, i just can't seem to picture it happening in a MMO. I can't give any real justifications for this, though. Just a hunch of an opinion.
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#5 Jun 29 2009 at 8:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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After thinking about it and I know that I am committing forum suicide by even suggesting it because it will immediately illicit the "noooo it will be too much like WOW then" response... But I will say it anyway.

Easiest solution is to allow us to play select beastmen races as well. In FFXI, there were beastmen who were intelligent and were part of quests and missions, so it wouldn't be too outrageous to have them as playable races this time around. Gobs and Yags immediately come to mind as having a few friendly ones, and possibly the orcs. I don't remember any quads but I would love to play as a quad :p

It doesn't have to be different factions, just some beastmen who didn't believe in the ways of their kind and chose to side with the other races.


edit:

Bardalicious wrote:

I, personally, would classify minotaurs and waltzes as humanoid. minotaurs, are by defined lore, half man. As for centaurs, i just can't seem to picture it happening in a MMO. I can't give any real justifications for this, though. Just a hunch of an opinion.


It's not about the classification, it's about how they appear. Minotaurs appear nothing like humans, they are bovine creatures.

And why can't you picture centaurs? Centaurs I seem to always remember as being woodsman and archers, and allowed humans to occasionally ride them. I see them excelling at a ranger-like job.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 12:22am by Torrence
#6 Jun 29 2009 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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:3 I did say it was more along the lines of seeing if others felt the same way.
But I'll try to put a positive spin on things, Bardalicious.

Solution-wise I think SE has its own solution.
I'm not much for quoting myself, but, they've introduced some of the most unique and exotic races to grace the RP genre. They have the capability. But for some reason have displayed a quaking terror in exercising this power when it comes to the MMO market.


You're right, Torrence.
While the lead characters have a tendency to be flat out human, the cast of characters under your control who aren't the Main shows a huge breathe and variety.

There's so much raw creativity and imagination in SE's repertoire, I would loathe if it were for some reason not exercised on the characters we can play.



/edit:
God, Yagudos. Am I the only one who wanted Yagudos as a Playable race after meeting Gessho in the CoP storyline?

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 12:28am by Zemzelette
#7 Jun 29 2009 at 8:31 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not about the classification, it's about how they appear. Minotaurs appear nothing like humans, they are bovine creatures.

And why can't you picture centaurs? Centaurs I seem to always remember as being woodsman and archers, and allowed humans to occasionally ride them. I see them excelling at a ranger-like job.


Heh, you see bovine I see man. I suppose I define the overall character by body type and structure rather than head or face. Anything with a human-like structure (2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, torso) seems humanoid to me. That's more a discussion on semantics I suppose, lol.

As for centaurs, It seems like it would be difficult to incorporate them with many gameplay elements. If chocobos are used as a mount, for example.

Quote:

There's so much raw creativity and imagination in SE's repertoire, I would loathe if it were for some reason not exercised on the characters we can play.

I concur. I was a little disappointed in hearing that the general concept for FFXI races was being recycled, but I am nonetheless anxious to see what revamped graphics can do for them.

Edited, Jun 29th 2009 11:35pm by Bardalicious
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#8 Jun 29 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Less races with better animations > more races with worse animations

Imo :D
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#9 Jun 29 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Centaurs wouldn't need a mount. They would have a speed bonus due to being part horse.. But then we are getting away from traditional Final Fantasy lore and I am really just floating out in space. I'm just trying to make a point here, really.

And there is a difference between being humanoid and looking human. Humans have a distinctive look and that's what the OP was getting at. All SE basically did with the races in XI was make humans really big, really small, tall and skinny, and actually human. There weren't many other defining characteristics other than pointy ears and tails. Galkas could have easily been minotaurs and looked something like this

Minotaur

That creature looks a **** of a lot different than a human. SE did a great job with the beastmen races, but kept to the mainstream with the playable races.

#10 Jun 29 2009 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Centaurs wouldn't need a mount. They would have a speed bonus due to being part horse.. But then we are getting away from traditional Final Fantasy lore and I am really just floating out in space. I'm just trying to make a point here, really.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of special abilities in an MMO. It is unique race attributes like this that lead to required races for particular jobs/roles. FFXI was guilty with this to an extent as evidenced by the general public mocking galka whms and taru DDs.
Quote:
And there is a difference between being humanoid and looking human. Humans have a distinctive look and that's what the OP was getting at.

As i said, it was a question of semantics. I guess the word was a little ambiguous.

I will agree that the minotaur would be, in general, a perfectly reasonable character possibility. Then again, I also don't see it deviating much from the humanoid norm (getting back into that pesky word again, lol)

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#11 Jun 29 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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Bardalicious wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of special abilities in an MMO. It is unique race attributes like this that lead to required races for particular jobs/roles. FFXI was guilty with this to an extent as evidenced by the general public mocking galka whms and taru DDs


Well, being able to run fast without a mount wouldn't be much of an advantage, especially if it was an incremental thing like you don't get full speed running until the same level where others would start getting their mounts. It's not something that I really see as game breaking, it's just compensating for another area where the character would be lacking. We're not talking about giving them +50 STR bonus, just letting them keep up with chocobos.

I agree with the Galka WHM comment though. In theory it makes sense that certain races would be better at certain things, but SE took it a pretty big extreme practically crippling some races until they got to a level where they could get gear to compensate.
#12 Jun 29 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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I was never really a fan of Galkas or Mithra personally. I would prefer avatars that look mostly human (Hume, Elvaan) or not human at all (like Red XIII in FF7).
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#13 Jun 29 2009 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Bardalicious wrote:
What exactly would you have developers do? How would you deviate from humanoid characteristics? Is this a question of too many bipeds or is it simply the fact that none of the races will look like something from a low budget sci-fi channel movie. I'm all for rants, **** they are one of my favorite pastimes, but usually one contains proposed remedies to the perceived problem.


I don't think that the OP's problem is that there's too many bipeds. I suspect that the OP wants to petition for furry races without getting himself labeled as one. He says that SE has invented "some of the more iconic and exotic races to grace the RPG genre," yet he immediately dismisses Galka and TaruTaru as fitting that profile because the removal of their distinct characteristics makes them too human. Meanwhile, Mithra escape judgment, presumably because they have cat ears, a tail, and wet noses. He also offers up no examples or remedies, as you pointed out, yet seems absolutely elated at the idea of Yagudo as a playable race.

That's just my interpretation of things. Maybe the OP can stop beating around the bush and clarify his position a bit.
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#14 Jun 29 2009 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
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They still look like galka to me...an extra finger doesn't change that. Heck, I didn't even know galka only had 8 fingers.
#15 Jun 29 2009 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What exactly would you have developers do?


Well I think its been beat to death and wont make a bit of difference because the races for the most part have been decided. They did state they wanted to bring the same races over and not lore for old FF users to have some familarity with the game itself since and lets be honest with ourselves now. (Those who want a FFXI clone)
We wont be seeing much of anything other then the standard FF staples moving to FFXIV. New everything and yes that even means battle system. Even the Job system is getting a makeover. Call me a liar and then go read the interviews.

I think the point is that they had other options. Look at moogles. A teddy bear with wings. Yes Human ish maybe but seriously very different then a human. Mithra arent much of a human clone I mean they are cats soo.... Galka yes humanish very much so. But why not have added. Baanga. Mogs. Viera. Gria (WHich I think is kind of a silly speculation.) Based of art that only the artist can really tell it honestly if fun to speculate and im all for it but be realistic to yourself in the end. That "Horn could be anything) BUt if your right your right.

ANywho then you have Ronso which I would have taken over galka any day of the week. YOu have the rat people like Freya. And many many more. Point being you could branch out and even try making the race that was introduced by Red XIII (NANAKI) from FFXI. It would have a different feel but is doable.
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#16 Jun 29 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Default
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I am all for a race that resembles a slime.

But I would get confused on which way to face when trying to hit the target.

Or maybe a race that doesn't exist in this dimension.. but my screen would probably explode and I doubt my Ps3 or computer could handle that kind of processing.
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#17 Jun 30 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't mention Mithras because that sentance was drawing a parallel between the races of XI and those commonly found in other MMOs. You will find many MMOs follow the similar pattern of SmallHuman, BigHuman, Pointy-earedHuman, and regular Human. Cat-person, although not unique in and of itself, is actually pretty atypical for the genre. Largely, I'm just willing to cut SE some slack for putting in anything other than an obvious iteration of Dwarves.

To be specific, when I say a creative race I mean something more like: Bangaa, Nu Mou, Moogles, Seeq, Chocobos, Ronso, Burmecians/Cleyran, Hypello, Moombas, Occuria, Hummingway, and Qu. These are races you can't draw direct mythological parallels to. They're pretty unique and take a bold departure from the typical human form, and still manage to achieve appealing character design.

Largely the likes of the Aegyl, Gria, Goblins, Lamia, Viera, and even Mithras are iterations of mythological creatures or anime-centric creatures which is all fine and dandy but I think SE is capable of more originality.

I wouldn't include something like, Al Bhed, Clavats, Cetra, Selkies, Lunarians, Lufenians, the Kuluu and the Zilart. Because while they're considered a different race, it's kind of "In Name Only". By all outward appearances these are human beings.

I couldn't tell you one way or the other about Black Waltzs, Vivi's race, Garif, and Yuke, because the headgear is such a defining and obscuring feature I can't tell if it's actually unique design or just mysterious (or unique because of the decision to leave it mysterious).

All in all, SE has shown it's ability to think outside the box, and is a leader in the industry because of it. But in this it strangely becomes a Follower, and falls in step with every other MMO on the market.


Edited, Jun 30th 2009 4:16am by Zemzelette
#18 Jun 30 2009 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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I resent being called a "smallhuman". Smiley: mad
#19 Jun 30 2009 at 12:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Revenge for that spoileriffic BSG avatar, revenge I say!

;p
#20 Jun 30 2009 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with this rant is that, right away, you've stripped out all of the things that could potentially separate the races--history, culture, body language, spoken language, mannerisms--as potentially making them original. All that's left is their outward physical appearance, which is a minor point in the "originality" debate. How is a Galka still a Galka without reincarnation? How is a TaruTaru still a TaruTaru if they don't talk like "thissy-wissy"? How's an Elvaan an Elvaan without that smug sense of racial superiority? These sorts of things define these races and make them distinct from humans, so why throw them out like that?
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#21 Jun 30 2009 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
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So I guess centaurs are out but what about chocotaurs?
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#22 Jun 30 2009 at 2:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sure you have come to love the races of Vana Diel but give FFXIV a new start not an old one. With rehashed races. And the taru waru and elvaan complex wont be there anymore anyway because the lore behinde them as you know it doesnt exist in FFXIV. So they are starting from ground zero and have already gotten rid of your old ideas of the races and are replacing them with that shell of a graphic you just argued against.

I think the point is if you aren't keeping the lore the same why keep the same races and make new ones or some fresh character modlels from old FF titles. Since they want to make this feel much more like an original FF title any way and give the new models back story. I think that is what we are getting at in the core. The only reason they chose the old races is to make FFXI players feel at home in a new world. Which is kind of an OXY Moron (Heres a new world with old character races.)
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#23 Jun 30 2009 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
I want to be a goblin, dag-nabit!
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#24 Jun 30 2009 at 2:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I made a thread saying something similar before.

It's a shame they are unwilling to borrow a few of the exotic races from the Ivalice world.

Nu Mou, Bangaas, and Viera, if nothing else. It would really round out the species options in FFXIV.

Bardalicious wrote:
Heh, you see bovine I see man. I suppose I define the overall character by body type and structure rather than head or face. Anything with a human-like structure (2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, torso) seems humanoid to me. That's more a discussion on semantics I suppose, lol.

You are correct, but you are also arguing schematics.

The comment wan't against humanoid characters. The comment was on being "too human"

While Bangaas and Viera are both a humanoid species, I think we can both agree that Bangaas are less human than Viera. And Viera are less human than Elveen.

You are thinking too hard into it hun.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 6:55am by Karelyn
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#25 Jun 30 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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JingleHymer wrote:
Sure you have come to love the races of Vana Diel but give FFXIV a new start not an old one. With rehashed races. And the taru waru and elvaan complex wont be there anymore anyway because the lore behinde them as you know it doesnt exist in FFXIV. So they are starting from ground zero and have already gotten rid of your old ideas of the races and are replacing them with that shell of a graphic you just argued against.

I think the point is if you aren't keeping the lore the same why keep the same races and make new ones or some fresh character modlels from old FF titles. Since they want to make this feel much more like an original FF title any way and give the new models back story. I think that is what we are getting at in the core. The only reason they chose the old races is to make FFXI players feel at home in a new world. Which is kind of an OXY Moron (Heres a new world with old character races.)


Who said that SE wasn't keeping the lore? I mean, has SE come out and said "Male and female Mithra will appear in equal abundance" or "Galka are no longer asexual creatures that are born from rebirth"? The only thing that's getting tossed out, as far as I know, is the history of the races, which is fine since it'd make little sense for the history of the TaruTaru of Vana'diel to share an almost identical history with the TaruTaru of Eorzea. However, I can still expect TaruTaru to speak "cutesy-wutesy", to be masters of magic, and to engage in scholarly pursuits rather than wage wars. I can expect these things because they define them as a race, and to drastically alter or remove these elements changes the TaruTaru into something that is not TaruTaru.
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#26 Jun 30 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Exactly they arent taru taru anymore dude. Read the interviews carefuly and if they are I will put my foot in my mouth. They arent gonna be the same exact beings you knew playing FFXI only reason they chose the same looks is to apeal to people like you who are in love with FFXI and give you some familarity. Read all the interviews before posting and if you did then read them again. Ill do the same. Just to double check my sources.


Quote:

[11:56] Question: What are the ties to FFXI, if any? - Answer: The FFXIV world is completely different and even though the races look similar, they are completely different. They made them look similar so that players that enjoyed FFXI will be comfortable and can remake a similar character


A direct quote from the press confrence.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:14pm by JingleHymer
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#27 Jun 30 2009 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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You might be right. Here's hoping for more details.
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#28 Jun 30 2009 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Theoretically though, if the "Galka" race are a specie based on immortal reincarnation (as apposed to reproduction), I don't see why you can't have Galka that resemble a 'female' appearance who are also immortals reincarnated. Anyway. Get rid of those tails on Galka, it just didn't look right - especially wearing a subligar.

One thing I don't want to see is the "Elvaan" race starting in a forest/jungle capital city and running amok with bows...I think the whole elf thing is completely overrated.

Other things: conceptual consistency - if you look bigger than everyone else, you're probably stronger than everyone else. So why does an overly slim Elvaan race have the highest strength over the Galka race? SE got it right with Tarutaru...big heads and high intelligence seems to make sense to me.
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#29 Jul 02 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Here's... 'hopping' for more details? :)
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#30 Jul 02 2009 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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What do u think they will name the races?

#31 Jul 03 2009 at 1:24 AM Rating: Good
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Now that I think of it :)

Moogle race

Human Race

Tarutaru Race, more like FFXI than human

Mitha race, or like FFXII

Chocobo knight Race! ^^

Tonberry like race.

I thought of these in 3 minutes I would bet SE could think of more in 2 hours.

Yes these races would make the game so much cooler with the weapon actions. Chocobo knight MONK yes, please lol
#32 Jul 03 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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I'd be more than happy to have a race like the big, metallic thing the girl appears to summon in the FFXIII trailer.
Seems a shame to just recycle old races to appeal to players when the game will, hopefully be so much different.
I would also like to see something resembling tonberry, a red XIII type character with really feline type movement, orcs and of course goblins.
I chose mithra in XI. Not based on looks, but because it had well rounded stats to be melee or mage. Unfortunately I ended up playing mainly mage jobs and regretted not being taru.
#33 Jul 03 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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mezlabor wrote:
So I guess centaurs are out but what about chocotaurs?


Did someone say Chocotaurs?
Screenshot


Sorry, it just popped in my head when you said that and I had to draw it.

Edit: Now that I have premium, I can bring these abominations straight to you!

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 2:12pm by BeastmenLord
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#34 Jul 03 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Default
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Chocobo knight Race! ^^


Not an intended flame, but if they announce this, I will not be buying this game.
#35 Jul 03 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't read the replies, but decided to respond all the same.

I want to point out a few things to the OP.

A. Those aren't galka. Swallow that right now, because you have to. They are meant to be something COMPLETELY different. They just LOOK somewhat like Galka to make XI players who played one more comfortable with their character in the new game. What is the player most likely to notice in changing a character? The size. That's the biggest feature. More than ANYTHING else, your character's size is the thing that jumps out the most (try playing a Galka when you are used to a Taru--you feel like you are running so slowly...). So, it was natural to create a race that was a large, rough, muscly type that looked enough like one to make a player comfortable.

B. But, you need to remember that SE DOESN'T WANT players to think "I'm gonna play as a Galka." They want players to thing of XIV as its own, stand-apart game. They are putting a lot of energy into the back stories for these races, and having the old designs just enhance the old story, not the new. I mean, when I see the art for the Tarutaru like race, that's all I can think about. I'm expecting a magically strong, chipper race that belongs to a theocracy. That ISN'T what SE wants.

C. I know your rant isn't necessarily about the actual design, but I'm just pointing out the REASON these changes had to happen. Without them, it is like playing a XI expansion, not something new and unique.

D. You are really mistaken if you think SE has EVER been known for creating new and intricate races completely different from humans. The only games to ever deviate from the normal human form are in the Ivalice Alliance, and the races only appear in them. And, even then, instead of getting "Really big, muscly man," you get "lizard man." Not really interesting or suprising--they act exactly as you'd imagine a lizard man would. Same thing with the Seeqs, they are just men that look like and act like boars. I guess Red XIII's race was interesting, but I'd give up hope on anything not humanoid.

E. Generally speaking, you are ALWAYS going to see the deviation of human features, because that is what most people respond to. That is the kind of design a dev can create without their movements being awkward. Plus, too many weird races starts taxxing a story. Look at WoW. Of the playable races, 6/8 are native to the main planet (two came from others). 2 of them are elves, one of which has changed to look different over time. Both elves evolved (supposedly) from a 3rd race. 4 races all come from the "creators" and have changed over time (Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes and Undead). One race is a Bull-man.

When we break that down, only two of the races are really unique (and, even then, they share characteristics). One has tentacles, a tail, horn-type things and hooves. Another has horns, hair, hooves and three fingers. All the rest are normal in that they are just basically differently proportioned humans with varying skin tones and ear sizes. And yet, no one ever criticizes WoW of limited race variety.

F. When you think about it, FFXI's races were more diverse from eachother than most other MMOs. For example, how many have light and dark elves? Or, like in War, two types of humans? Each of XIV's races, while they shared some characteristics in that they were all distinctly humanoid, were very different. So much so that, while I could play Mithra, Humes and Tarutaru, I HATED looking at Galka or Elvaan. The first because I felt too large and slow (I only ever noticed the Mithra tale), and the latter because the neck made me want to shoot myself.

Yet, the Mithra, Humes and Taru all looked and moved VERY differently. When I played one, it never felt like another.

I think you shouldn't be so quick to judge the races. Maybe they are all just "humans" with varying body sizes (and one gets animal ears and a tail). But, that doesn't change them from feeling very, very different to a player. Plus, lizard men are just BORING from a story perspective. Like, I get it. You are greedy and I shouldn't pick a fight with you...
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#36 Jul 04 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
idiggory wrote:
I didn't read the replies, but decided to respond all the same.


That is painful obvious.


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Roan Ragestorm
Charr|Warrior|Stormbluff Isle


MoonlitStorm
Night Elf|Druid|Cenarion Circle ~retired~


GryphonStalker
Galka|Monk|Bastok|Midgardsormr ~retired~
#37 Jul 04 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts


Actually, I really am just talking about character design. ^_^;

Not that I don't recognize race is a more complex matter. But as a visual person, this is the part that interests me most. In your defense, I wasn't as clear as I could have been in the original post. Later on in the thread I make this more clear.




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