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Inventory System and StorageFollow

#1 Jun 30 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Not sure if anyone's wrote about this yet but couldn't find it on the front page so here we go -

FFXI's inventory system sucks worse than a 90yr old hooker with lung disease. It's small, hard to view, impossible to sort and has an inexplicable automatic item queue for anything that you can't fit in there. In short, it's crap.

Having a better inventory system is going to be one of the most important factors in me buying XIV, I seriously can't imagine anyone actually liking the one in XI much, so what do you people think should be done about it in XIV? A bags system like WoW? Or maybe a weight-based system like in Rappelz?

Personally I think the gobbie bags quests and having a fixed inventory size based on that was fine in itself, but it could do with a slot-based rather than list-based interface, and allow drag-and-dropping. Also I'd like to see dead enemies as containers rather than just dying and automatically transferring useless items to you regardless of whether you want them or not. And of course, more space earlier on in the game.

Another thing that confounded the low inventory space to start out with was the fact that equipping armour/weapons didn't remove them from your inventory slots. Obviously with only 30 slots initially, and most of that still being took up by your equips, lower levels were pretty much screwed for any extended farming trips. The only problem in the old system I'd see with implementing this is of course the dreaded de-level where you lose the ability to wear your current gear, but if SE leave in de-levelling there's obviously a few workarounds to this like just keeping the gear on and losing it's abilities.

Finally on the moghouse side I think it'd be cool to see some kind of armory. The one main problem with the jobs system for inventory was multiple classes needing multiple equipment sets and effectively storing them. I think it'd be nice to see some kind of system to store equipment sets, maybe dummies you could equip like a normal character and use one button to swap all the gear off. You could buy specific class ones or maybe just have generic ones. They'd look pretty cool in your house too (assuming you have a house in this game).
#2 Jun 30 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Good
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I like the mog house dummy idea. I think it'd be a cool way to graphically show you what equipable items you have stashed away. I think the most simple ways to enhance the item system from FFXI without leaving the menu-driven FF roots would be:

- Increase item space by A LOT. I'm talking instead of 30 slots base, make it ~100
- Make items stack. There's no reason crystals can stack but metal ignots can't.
- Equipped items are not in your bags, so they shouldn't take up bag space.
- More sorting options / have it so you can program your auto-sort button.
- "Tab-based" system. Let the user decide how to break up his items by creating tabs in the menu to put items under. Maybe the user wants a list of all 'consumables' and puts potions and foods under one tab for easy access. Another might want to break up his items into 'usable in battle' and 'not usable in battle'. Let him create those tabs.
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#3 Jun 30 2009 at 5:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, 30 base isn't bad. WoW starts at like ... 10. The problem there is, while the game goes on, that base isn't nearly as adequate, and WoW addressed it by making it perpetually expanding with the ability to buy more, and bigger, "bags," while FFXI's was limited to just a handful of quests. Like I said, 30 isn't bad, but any future online incarnation basically requires a modular system that can be expanded at the player's discretion.

Besides, the biggest issue in FFXI wasn't the storage so much the infinite amount of situational gear. Eliminate that, and there isn't so much storage issue anymore.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 11:28am by lolgaxe
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#4 Jun 30 2009 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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godmademedoit wrote:
Or maybe a weight-based system like in Rappelz?

This one.

Time and time again, I find the weight system to be the best inventory system for usage in MMOs, as long as they do not cap the "different types of items" too low. But in general, that is more an issue with having non-stacking items drop too frequently, as opposed to being a problem with the weight system itself.

Items should stack to 99. Armor/Weapons should not stack. Inventory cap should be something around 100 slots (something that won't be reached under normal circumstances). Weight should be implimented to prevent people from being walking mog-houses.

Weight system is highly flexible and very un-intrusive.

Mog-Houses themselves should have effectively infinite space. Seriously. Learn to store stacks of items in a simple hex pair. There is no legitimate reason why inventory space needs to be limited on an MMO. The hardware limitations excuse is pathetic.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 10:23am by Karelyn
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#5 Jun 30 2009 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
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...except weight-based systems put melee/physical classes at a serious advantage over casters, since weight-based systems usually scale the maximum weight to the amount of strength a character has.
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#6 Jun 30 2009 at 6:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Kharmageddon wrote:
...except weight-based systems put melee/physical classes at a serious advantage over casters, since weight-based systems usually scale the maximum weight to the amount of strength a character has.

I dunno, I've played several MMos with a weight system. Melee classes typically wear substancially heavier armor, that pretty much negates that advantage... Actually, I seem to recall in one games, that the melee classes were actually at a DISADVANTAGE, because they could not acquire enough strength to overcome the obscene weight of their best armors.

Having played casters, healers, tanks, and melee in most every game I've tried, I've never really noticed a substancially effective inventory size difference unless the game had a "merchant" type job which would typically be able to carry 10 times as many items as other people. And considering FFXIV would be highly unlikely to include a merchant system...

...

And if you really wanted to be peculiar about it, you could make different armors for different classes carry the same weight, and make capacity be based on the total sum of stats, as opposed to any one stat. Or something akin to that.

The key point is the weight system allowed you the flexability to carry multiple armor sets and have little room to pick up loot, or maybe only one armor set for an extended farming adventure. Or maybe this or maybe that.

It mostly removes the frustratiosn that "You have 30 slots and that is that" systems tend to cause. I feel restricted constantly under a fixed inventory system, and become engaged in a battle against the inventory limit. I rarely if ever feel limited under a weight system, no matter what class I play.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 10:34am by Karelyn
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#7 Jun 30 2009 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah but with the increased inventory from increased STR you also have to take into account that the classes with the most STR (SAM, WAR, DRK, etc.) are normally wearing heavier armor which takes up more weight so it sort of balances itself out. Most classes with low STR wear cloth while classes with middle STR normally have some kind of leather/chain.
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#8 Jun 30 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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I think the biggest issue for me was the inability to sort it or have any choice as to what dropped in there. I don't really have any issue with a 30 slot start, so long as your gear isn't taking up like 19 slots of that and more items stack ***** you, stupid sheepskins!). I think pretty much every crafting material drop should stack and anything else that dosen't should be a premuim item you don't need that many of anyway. Also if inventory expansion is quest-based, they should at least allow it to start a lot earlier. Failing that a bags system isn't too bad as it allows for more item crafting and inventory space customised to your needs and budget.

I think the original system was only so stupid because it was first designed for use on a console, where there was no mouse/keyboard to speak of and no way to drag and drop slots about, so a list system seemed the obvious choice. Now though since PS3 and *crosses fingers* 360 both support pretty much any USB wireless mouse and keyboard combo (and let's face it you're going to need em for any MMO), there's no real reason to compromise gameplay elements such as the inventory management to compensate for using a controller.
#9 Jun 30 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I never understood why SE deviated from every other game they ever made in the past and suddenly decreed certain things wouldn't stack at all, much less to 99. I hope that they put more thought into the inventory system for this game because no one likes to throw away treasure. I personally hated having to determine which item was going to be more valuable and which one I could sacrifice because I simply didn't have inventory space.

I'd also like some sort of command set for managing inventory. I've long wanted a macro command that would allow me to put in and take out of my mog house sets of armor. Being a bard, red mage, and paladin means the situational gear never ends and I literally spend 15 minutes in my mog house whenever I need to change jobs (and even then I often forget something). It would be great to have "put" and "take" commands so that the gear I know I will always need can be transferred back and forth at the touch of a button.

Also, do away with the "Storage" and "Mog Locker" systems. One list will do just fine, and tab it out for item classes as someone else suggested. That would be sufficient. Three (now four) different lists of items and some are only accessible at certain times drags the whole thing down.
#10 Jun 30 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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godmademedoit wrote:
I think the original system was only so stupid because it was first designed for use on a console, where there was no mouse/keyboard to speak of and no way to drag and drop slots about, so a list system seemed the obvious choice.

I'm currently playing not one, but two handheld games that allow sorting by drag and drop. And one of them is a Final Fantasy game! (specifically FFTA2, and MMBN6)

Press Select to enter sort mode
Highlight item with gamepad
Press the A button to pick it up
Move it with the gamepad
Press the A button to drop it

I can remember games on the NES that were capable of sorting items like that...

Actually, I call ******** on a lot of the things Square claimed that they couldn't do in FFXI because of hardware limitations. Especially when other games that Square themselves made, managed to do it just fine.
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#11 Jun 30 2009 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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hmm yeah you've got a point (although initially I was about to go 'Hold on are these DS games?' haha).

I mean even if you just set the R3 (pushing in the right analogue stick) to switch to 'mouse mode' it would have worked just fine.

I think with FFXI they basically kept the interface too close to a traditional 1-player FF console title. Hopefully the mere announcement of FFXIV implies they've realised such a system dosen't date well and they're going to at least adapt to what players consider the norm for a good MMO.
#12 Jun 30 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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godmademedoit wrote:
hmm yeah you've got a point (although initially I was about to go 'Hold on are these DS games?' haha).

FFTA2 was a DS game, but the entire game was designed to be played without the stylus, and using the stylus feels akward for the game. When I manage my inventory in that game, I always used the gamepad instead of the stylus.

MMBN6 was a GBA game.

EDIT:

Now that I think about it, a grid system for inventory makes a lot more sense than a list for usage with a gamepad, due to the gamepad functioning strongly for moving and selecting squares in a grid.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 11:14am by Karelyn
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#13 Jun 30 2009 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
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So we can safely assume that even with just a PS3 controller SE don't really have an excuse for such a retarded system making a comeback :)
#14 Jun 30 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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godmademedoit wrote:
Finally on the moghouse side I think it'd be cool to see some kind of armory. The one main problem with the jobs system for inventory was multiple classes needing multiple equipment sets and effectively storing them. I think it'd be nice to see some kind of system to store equipment sets, maybe dummies you could equip like a normal character and use one button to swap all the gear off. You could buy specific class ones or maybe just have generic ones. They'd look pretty cool in your house too (assuming you have a house in this game).


This would be very nice to have. Just like the mannequins we have now but with their own equipment menu so you can equip them with your Pld gear for example and when you change jobs you just "talk" to the mannequin and simply change your current gear with the one it's wearing.
Would also look nice to see all your gear when you are in your mog house.
The only problem would be swap gear.

Regarding inventory space. I don't think it is TOO bad in FFXI. Yes the mog house should just have one inventory.
But besides that I'd be glad if they made items like food, potions and materials stack to XX.

The weight system also sounds nice and I've thought about it too but I came up with the same possible problems that were already mentioned here.
If it's somehow connected to a characters Str casters won't be too happy. On the other hand with the current need for gear swaps melee classes would have to spend alot of their Str for equipment.
Also what about materials? An alchemist won't have to carry heavy stuff like a smith would have to.

Either way. If they keep the current system with expansions of inventory space it should be able for players to farm the items and not be dependent on crafters who sell the wanted items for ALOT more than they are really worth.
There should be a way (maybe a quest or more) to get the expansions for all players and not only the ones who got the money.

Whatever. I'm curious what SE has planned for us.
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#15 Jun 30 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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RidingBean wrote:
Also what about materials? An alchemist won't have to carry heavy stuff like a smith would have to.

Typically, a weight system isn't entirely literal, it's more along the lines of "roughly equivalent things weigh roughly the same amount"

A bar of iron and a sheet of linen cloth would weigh the same amount, if they were roughly equivalent materials for two different crafters.

Maybe potions weigh this much, and stronger potions weigh slightly more. And food weighs this much, and stronger food weighs slightly more. Crystals weigh this. Low rank crafting mats weigh this, second rank weighs this, third this, forth that, etc.

There really isn't much of a variation between different characters.

I still find it a pretty awesome system for simplifying personal inventory management.
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#16 Jun 30 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Default
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I liked the inventory system, I just needed more space. Maybe separate equipment from everything else.
#17 Jun 30 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know, the FFXI wasn't that bad. In the end you had a lot of space if you did everything you could to expand it. 80 in inventory, 80 in mog house bank, 80 in Satchel, 80 in locker, and then depending on your furniture you could have even more... so that is what 320+ items? I think the amount of storage is fine but they need to design a better way to move items and stack items. That would remove a lot of the hassle in the inventory. I think something like the Armor would be good, maybe not dependent on jobs but dependent on the items stores sort of like the auction system. Go to equipment > helmets > and then you can view all your helmets you have.
#18 Jun 30 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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The system in FFXI is perfectly acceptable once you move equipped items out of it, and remove the need for gear swapping.
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#19 Jun 30 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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the FFXI system is just like any old FF inv system.

u get all the items a monster drops, including money and rares.
i think thats y they decided to do it that way.

having a bag system or a weight system just aint FF. i think they should just increase the size of the inv slots, equiped items are removed from the list (just like every other FF game) and increase the stack to 99 on all items.

its easy to sell X amount of an item on the AH w/o having to sell them in stacks.

take crystals for example. what if you had 24 earth crystals (stacked ontop of each other) and u decide how many of the 24 u want to put up on the AH. lets say 10 of them. each one u sell for 100gil ea. 10 gets added to the total amount of crystals on the AH, and if i want to buy 76 earth crystals i can put in 76, then my price of 150 or something and buy as many as i can in bulk.

selling stacks of 12 never made sense to me. this way its looks and feels more like an FF game.

edit PERFECT EXAMPLE WOULD BE FF12. take that inv system and add it to ff14 but reduce the slots to around 40 base and have another 40 slots questable.

the major limiting factor in FF11 when it came to inv was the outragous amount of crystal and sellable item stacks u'd get (id get an average of 10-15 crystal stacks with another 5-10 useless item stacks a merit party) thats 15-25 slots used up by items and then another 20-30 slots for equipment swaps (was a smn and had all ele staves + some AF/relic gear + ra/ex gear + healing gear). if they stacked to 99 imagine how much space you could free up.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:10pm by Leyego
#20 Jun 30 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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After reading this thread, I agree with the classic FF inventory method. Items should stack in 99 and consumables should have an appropriate cooldown to balance out the fact that characters are holding 99 potions, 99 antidotes, etc. The weight system is too finnicky -- "IF ONLY I COULD HOLD 1 MORE WEIGHT!" -- I like having a definite amount of items I can hold across the board. Is it going to be an extra weapon, or an extra stack of 99 potions? I don't want to be able to throw out 5 potions to 'just fit' an extra weapon in my bag.
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#21 Jun 30 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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I never personally had a problem with the inventory system in FFXI, however, it can definately be improved upon. The use of Tabs are a good first step to streamline the inventory, Weapons - Armor - Consumables - Materials - Other etc. Although I never had a real issue even while switching jobs, being able to quickly switch item sets or "bags" depending on your job would be a great addition.

I don't care for the idea of using a weight system, I think that it would be too difficult to balance. I don't like the idea of one job being at an advantage/disadvantage just because of how heavy their armor is or what their native Strength may be. Also, if weight was used in a way that inventory was never an issue then why have any limits at all?

Personally I would just prefer space to be a set number but split into groups. For example, you are allowed to carry X total number of weapons and armor combined. Then you can carry Y number of consumables and Z number of crafting materials and so on. You still have a set number of items in each bag but one bag would not effect the other.
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#22 Jul 01 2009 at 12:54 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
the FFXI system is just like any old FF inv system.

u get all the items a monster drops, including money and rares.
i think thats y they decided to do it that way.

having a bag system or a weight system just aint FF. i think they should just increase the size of the inv slots, equiped items are removed from the list (just like every other FF game) and increase the stack to 99 on all items.


Unfortunately, this isn't your typical FF game. That system was designed for an offline 1 player console game, a turn-based one at that, (not to mention one that by today's standards is considered a bit outdated) where you had a great deal of time to select and manage items. Also I think any games designer in his right mind would laugh at giving you 99 stacks on everything, for an MMO that would be ridiculously overpowered and the only way to offset having 99 hi-potions in your inventory would be to give them a massive cooldown, which would be more annoying than simply having a dozen you can use every minute.

Anyway I'm personally dead against the purist stance regarding Final Fantasy titles - if only because it's a waste having some of the best artists and designers in the business avoiding innovation and churning out the same crap to keep the fans happy. If anything the best thing about the FF games is their variety, not their consistency.

Back on to the bags/weight argument, I guess they've both been proved to work online and personally I can't see a major problem with either. I think personally I preferred the weight system, and I think they should avoid a bags system exactly like WoW has - if they go that route I think you should just have one 'bag' that can be upgraded so you're not opening several bags to find the item you want. Programmable tabs for inventory sorting would be awesome. Even if it wasn't programmable and just had say all/equip/consumable/crafting/quest/other or something.

EDIT - oh yeah remembered one advantage to a weight system, when playing rappelz I noticed that rather than losing items due to going over the limit, you slowed down depending how much extra weight you carried, and became less effective in combat. I always really liked this game dynamic (I believe something similar was in NWN if I recall) as basically you had the option of travelling back to town with your extra items to put them in your warehouse or simply dumping some off there and then. In a party situation it gave you a bit of time to organise your stuff or trade a few consumables to party members. The STR issue I never really saw as a problem in the games I played - basically not all are created equal and having an advantage to what you could carry based on a stat was just as effective as any other advantage. For example high agility characters having a slightly faster movement speed and also characters carrying less weight in relation to their strength moving a bit faster too. People may complain at such an idea, but ask yourself - why should a scrawny little mage be able to run faster than an agile ninja? And why wouldn't a huge warrior be able to carry more than a skinny rogue? It makes sense, you just have to think in a broader spectrum of gameplay mechanics as to how to offset these advantages so it all balances out. If FFXIV were to keep the subjob system though it could make for some interesting combinations.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 5:14am by godmademedoit
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