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#102 Jul 01 2009 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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190 posts
Parade wrote:
I would rather have the Outposts in every zone and they have the ability to either A. Transfer you to your Home Nation or B. Transfer you to your home point. I think that would be great myself. Takes what, 5 minutes if you are in the zone to run to the outpost?

No cool down, just cost 100-300gil depending on your region and you can transfer to and from it if you are at the right NPC and have done the quest for it.


Careful Parade you may be slammed for suggesting something like a "Flight path"

I hope SE strikes a good balance for travel in this game.
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#103 Jul 01 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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102 posts
Warping & flight paths are two very different things.
#104 Jul 01 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:

It's not so much interesting as it is just glaringly obvious that the majority of people don't want a WoW clone, (which, with the vocabulary that the OP chose to use, made it appear that he was in favor of such) as similar as the individual concepts themselves themselves may be.


As long as people maintain the idea that referencing a single aspect of WoW is the same as suggesting a "WoW clone", there will be contention. A clone of a WoW idea? Maybe that's what they're suggesting. A clone of the entire game? No. And there is no basis for an argument as such.

It's the same tired old argument. One person comments on or references a single concept and everyone gets all freaked out and associates it with a reference to the entire game. I'm sorry...that's just a gradeschool level of thinking that only produces more conflict.

Ergo, I put forward the idea of evaluating the single concept...on its own...regardless of source, and if people want to get butthurt because WoW could be considered the source, that's their problem. I would encourage you not to defend the tween level of thinking that leads to such vast discrepancies in association from "concept" to "entire game".
#105 Jul 01 2009 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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DrymChaser wrote:


Careful Parade you may be slammed for suggesting something like a "Flight path"

I hope SE strikes a good balance for travel in this game.

Dangnabit! FFXI had the concept first!(when comparing it to WoW) :P

Only difference is that you don't get to pick which town you want to go to, your options are either A your home town or B your home point. Which I think makes since in terms of keeping to close to FFXI but also making it less of a hassle.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 8:11pm by Parade
#106 Jul 01 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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54 posts
Torrence wrote:
I don't see how at least a simple warp to your home point available on a reasonable cool down is going to ruin the learning curve.

Because if it is free, and concept of heartstone suggest it, you will never think about way of returning home, you will always have magic button.
FFXI already have a lot of ways to return to homepoint. Some of them available even at low level. But all off them incur cost - whether it is small amount of gil or CP to buy item, time and courage to shout for D2 or grievous loss of exp and tough decision to die.

You are basically suggest to make your life easier and game simplier because you don't want to plan how you will return home.
#107 Jul 01 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Phess wrote:

Because if it is free, and concept of heartstone suggest it, you will never think about way of returning home, you will always have magic button.


Exactly. As long as it's not still on cooldown from the last time you used it ;D

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FFXI already have a lot of ways to return to homepoint.


Yes, it does.

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Some of them available even at low level.


Yes, they are.

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But all off them incur cost - whether it is small amount of gil or CP to buy item, time and courage to shout for D2 or grievous loss of exp and tough decision to die.


Right.

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You are basically suggest to make your life easier and game simplier because you don't want to plan how you will return home.


No, I just don't want the return home to be a backhanded benefit. There is no benefit to the player in appending a cost to every rapid-travel homepoint return feature (or requiring that a specific job/class be present and available to do it for free). Nifty little features that don't cost you anything to use are frequently referred to as "perks", and there's nothing wrong with a little perk here and there in an MMO.
#108Beanis, Posted: Jul 01 2009 at 10:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) omg i'm totally not reading through 3 pages of nerdwars. some of you people are getting a little ridiculous lol
#109 Jul 01 2009 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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54 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
No, I just don't want the return home to be a backhanded benefit. There is no benefit to the player in appending a cost to every rapid-travel homepoint return feature (or requiring that a specific job/class be present and available to do it for free).

There is. It's an learning of proper planning - not just running mindlessly somewhere, but also some thought how you will return to home. And instant transportation should not be free - as it impair normal means of transportation.

In WoW for example - it is simply abusive mechanics for everyone. If I don't want run to the half a map to quest hub - I simply HS to it. If i got somewhere where I have no idea how to return to home - I HS. In WoW you never care about your way back to home - you always have HS and it is free and 1 hour recast isn't really a big deal.

AureliusSir wrote:
Nifty little features that don't cost you anything to use are frequently referred to as "perks", and there's nothing wrong with a little perk here and there in an MMO.

Why then not to give nifty little feature to have all new players to be lvl 75 in uber-eq with an ability to one-shot every single mob in the game?
Why force players to do all this ridiculous grind to get exp, equipment, status etc?
#110 Jul 01 2009 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Phess wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
No, I just don't want the return home to be a backhanded benefit. There is no benefit to the player in appending a cost to every rapid-travel homepoint return feature (or requiring that a specific job/class be present and available to do it for free).

There is. It's an learning of proper planning - not just running mindlessly somewhere, but also some thought how you will return to home. And instant transportation should not be free - as it impair normal means of transportation.


I think that maybe you're exaggerating a bit. Not learning of proper planning? Because you've got a perpetual item in your inventory that lets you return to your homepoint once/hour tops instead of having to pay for a warp scroll or cudgel? I'll tell ya what...I've led 10 and 25-man progression raids in WoW. I led a CoP static in FFXI from the Promyvions right the way through to roflstomping Promathia. Something tells me that's planning of an order of magnitude beyond working out how I'm going to get back to my home point. I don't need an MMO to teach me how to plan, and I don't need an MMO to seize upon every opportunity to bleed me dry.

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In WoW for example - it is simply abusive mechanics for everyone. If I don't want run to the half a map to quest hub - I simply HS to it.


Abusive mechanics? Because once/hour maximum you get a free trip to your homepoint? Whew. That's pretty rigid thinking.

Quote:
If i got somewhere where I have no idea how to return to home - I HS. In WoW you never care about your way back to home - you always have HS and it is free and 1 hour recast isn't really a big deal.


Why should you care? Why should you have to pay for a quick trip back to your homepoint every once in a while so you can get to do what you actually want to do instead of spending a larger than necessary chunk of your session traveling? Do you think it makes you a better person that you like to spend CP on scrolls instead of xp item charges, upgrades, or gear to flip on the auction house?

AureliusSir wrote:
Why then not to give nifty little feature to have all new players to be lvl 75 in uber-eq with an ability to one-shot every single mob in the game?
Why force players to do all this ridiculous grind to get exp, equipment, status etc?


Again, you're just exaggerating. There's such an enormous difference between a free hourly warp home and skipping the entire character development process. You don't develop your character faster or earn more gear by running home. It's a time sink. You already spent the time to get out to where you are...now you get a zippy trip back. The only difference is that in FFXI you have to pay for that trip...in most other MMOs, you get one free once every 30-60 minutes.
#111 Jul 02 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:

I think that maybe you're exaggerating a bit. Not learning of proper planning? Because you've got a perpetual item in your inventory that lets you return to your homepoint once/hour tops instead of having to pay for a warp scroll or cudgel? I'll tell ya what...I've led 10 and 25-man progression raids in WoW. I led a CoP static in FFXI from the Promyvions right the way through to roflstomping Promathia. Something tells me that's planning of an order of magnitude beyond working out how I'm going to get back to my home point.

I play online games for ten years and your bragging doesn't impress me. I played WoW for 2 years (started when there were no 25 mans inst and 10 man insts were a joke). I played like half an year WAR, I played FFXI for several years with prolonged breaks.
You are trying to de-emphasize the whole point of necessity of planning of return by bragging about you own experience and not answering to the actual point.

Again, I still want to hear why the paying some cost is so difficult so it should be omitted and insta-warp to homepoint should be free? Because right now in FFXI you can have insta-warp at any time, but with a little cost attached.

AureliusSir wrote:
Abusive mechanics? Because once/hour maximum you get a free trip to your homepoint? Whew. That's pretty rigid thinking.

Yes. In WoW you never think about how to return. You have a nifty item in inventory that takes care about this part. I would call this quite "unrealistic" because in RL you do need to think about how to return, and it usually ain't free.

AureliusSir wrote:
Why should you care? Why should you have to pay for a quick trip back to your homepoint every once in a while so you can get to do what you actually want to do instead of spending a larger than necessary chunk of your session traveling? Do you think it makes you a better person that you like to spend CP on scrolls instead of xp item charges, upgrades, or gear to flip on the auction house?

I detest free stuff because there should not be any. If something is free - this mean that almost nobody will put any effort in this part of game - and travelling and exploring in FFXI I consider an important part of the game (unlike for example WoW and WAR).

AureliusSir wrote:
Again, you're just exaggerating. There's such an enormous difference between a free hourly warp home and skipping the entire character development process. You don't develop your character faster or earn more gear by running home. It's a time sink.

Developing you character is also time sink, you should know. Replacing one feature with freely available alternative is just a first step to skipping entire character development process.
For example - replace party exp grind with easy-to-do solo fast quest-exping. Replace camping for equipment and farming gil (to buy eq) with easily obtainable quest eq. Replace long travels with very fast, easily available means of transaportation - and you will get a game where actual pre-end-game progression is a joke and nobody sane even mention it as a good gameplay side by itself, only "fast way to get to end-game".

Also, I do know online games (MUDs) where character progression were almost completely skipped and you get max level character with good eq from the start. They had their own reason for it, which is not suitable (and generally should not) to most other online games.
#112 Jul 02 2009 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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Phess wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

I think that maybe you're exaggerating a bit. Not learning of proper planning? Because you've got a perpetual item in your inventory that lets you return to your homepoint once/hour tops instead of having to pay for a warp scroll or cudgel? I'll tell ya what...I've led 10 and 25-man progression raids in WoW. I led a CoP static in FFXI from the Promyvions right the way through to roflstomping Promathia. Something tells me that's planning of an order of magnitude beyond working out how I'm going to get back to my home point.

I play online games for ten years and your bragging doesn't impress me. I played WoW for 2 years (started when there were no 25 mans inst and 10 man insts were a joke). I played like half an year WAR, I played FFXI for several years with prolonged breaks.
You are trying to de-emphasize the whole point of necessity of planning of return by bragging about you own experience and not answering to the actual point.


No, I'm saying that you can't suggest people haven't learned about proper planning because they prefer a free warp option on a cooldown over an option you have to pay for. It's an extraordinarily lame argument.

Quote:
Again, I still want to hear why the paying some cost is so difficult so it should be omitted and insta-warp to homepoint should be free? Because right now in FFXI you can have insta-warp at any time, but with a little cost attached.


Because other MMOs...most of them since FFXI...have demonstrated that the game isn't made lacking in any way because they offer a free return option.

AureliusSir wrote:

Yes. In WoW you never think about how to return. You have a nifty item in inventory that takes care about this part. I would call this quite "unrealistic" because in RL you do need to think about how to return, and it usually ain't free.


Ya, and in RL you don't ride oversized chickens, use magic, or fight walking trees on your way to town. Don't bring RL comparisons into it...it's almost always a losing shenanigan.

AureliusSir wrote:
I detest free stuff because there should not be any. If something is free - this mean that almost nobody will put any effort in this part of game - and travelling and exploring in FFXI I consider an important part of the game (unlike for example WoW and WAR).


Changing jobs in FFXI was free. Other games that allow you to change your character build often require you to pay for the privilege. I guess that means that nobody put any effort into leveling their jobs in FFXI. Who woulda thunkit.

AureliusSir wrote:
Developing you character is also time sink, you should know. Replacing one feature with freely available alternative is just a first step to skipping entire character development process.


Show me a an MMO where the "entire character development process" has ever been eliminated, much less one where they started by changing their "return home" option from a pay system to a free system and wound up caving and just letting people roll max level toons.

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For example - replace party exp grind with easy-to-do solo fast quest-exping.


Grinding xp to cap in FFXI didn't take much longer than getting to max level in other MMOs I've played. What made it seem like such an extended process was all the time waiting for a group.

Quote:
Replace camping for equipment and farming gil (to buy eq) with easily obtainable quest eq.


Or mix it up and itemize so that you don't have to halt your character progression while you do an extensive grind for the next "mandatory" upgrade by giving lesser alternatives that let you keep plugging away at your character.

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Replace long travels with very fast, easily available means of transaportation


So you didn't like chocobos, airships, WHM teleports or warp items in FFXI?

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- and you will get a game where actual pre-end-game progression is a joke and nobody sane even mention it as a good gameplay side by itself, only "fast way to get to end-game".


Or maybe SE will do all of that but still make the progression process fun and engaging. I think that would be pretty sweet. Steady progression that's rewarding and entertaining the whole way through? Pffft...sign me up.

Quote:
Also, I do know online games (MUDs) where character progression were almost completely skipped and you get max level character with good eq from the start. They had their own reason for it, which is not suitable (and generally should not) to most other online games.


I think you're the first person in the history of the ZAM FFXIV forums to bring up a MUD. Nicely done. Not exactly a relevant comparison, however. MUDs were typically 100% free to play. A game that charges for a retail box + subscription fee has a vested interest in offering progressive content. They also have a vested interest in not boring the **** out of their subscribers by making them grind for everything.
#113 Jul 02 2009 at 3:15 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, nice argument, but unfortunately having played several games with a free 1hr timed warp item I can honestly say two things -

1. It significantly cut down the amount of pointless running about from A to B to A back to B again. This is NOT exploration because you're running in the same straight ******* line you ran there in the first place, being bored to death trying to get to your destination, where the actual adventure is happening.

2. I found the system didn't get abused at all because.. wait for it.. I LIKE EXPLORING! :O
Yeah, really, you actually find that the vast majority of gamers still have exactly the same sense of scale in the world regardless of the convenience of their travel abilities, purely because they want to see everything, just in their own time and when they want to, instead of being forced to take the scenic route when frankly they couldn't care less.


Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not against there being a cost to such services, the outpost warps were an excellent example of this, I just felt in FF I was doing far too much running about while not anywhere near enough adventuring. The warp scrolls were inordinately expensive for a new player and frankly gaining those conquest points just so you could warp home ONCE was stupid because you could have ran it in that time and got back again anyway.

Neways best idea so far is the guy who said keep outpost quests/warps but make them work with home points too, that still requires some tactical planning , earning the right to travel to places initially and some small cost, but makes your life a lot easier for mission and trade purposes. For other stuff I'll just be happy with my own dear summonable chocobo to make me run faster, then I can explore and enjoy the sense of scale without being bored to tears.

Anyway basically this whole fear of game mechanics that make the parts of a game easier that are normally tedious (I repeat, I am not here to run about I am here to fight stuff, farm, craft, fish etc) is daft. You're basically saying

"I'm going to continue driving my 3-wheel Robin Reliant because BMWs have 4 wheels and BMW drivers are **************

"Yes, but seriously most cars have 4 wheels these days, not just BMWs, it's a lot better and considered the norm now"

"I don't care I love my crap car and when the company make another model I want everyone else who likes that make of car to suffer in the same way I do for the sake of posterity"

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 7:29am by godmademedoit
#114 Jul 02 2009 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:

No, I'm saying that you can't suggest people haven't learned about proper planning because they prefer a free warp option on a cooldown over an option you have to pay for. It's an extraordinarily lame argument.

I suggest that HSing does not require any planning/decision making and FFXI way of home warping - does require.

Quote:
Because other MMOs...most of them since FFXI...have demonstrated that the game isn't made lacking in any way because they offer a free return option.

Which one exactly?
WAR and WoW - they both geared heavily to end-game (PvE/Arena for WoW and RvR for WAR) - with almost non-existance of middle-game progression, crafting, exploring or any other activities besides end-game PvE/PvP.

AureliusSir wrote:
Ya, and in RL you don't ride oversized chickens, use magic, or fight walking trees on your way to town. Don't bring RL comparisons into it...it's almost always a losing shenanigan.

But simple principle "You get what you pay for" - remains in both RL and MMO - maybe because people are the same in both.
If you add fast transportation without cost - it will impair travelling, and as a result - exploration aspect of game.
As traveling to destination really need tweaks, and you additionally suggest making way back free and instaneous - we will see WoW type of traveling where nobody really care about travelling expenses and exploration difficulties.
Exploration to be an viable part of game - should incur some danger and difficulties - or it will be dull and uninteresting.

AureliusSir wrote:
Changing jobs in FFXI was free. Other games that allow you to change your character build often require you to pay for the privilege. I guess that means that nobody put any effort into leveling their jobs in FFXI. Who woulda thunkit.

Changing jobs in most games _are_ free as normally games have several slots for your twinks. What differs is that in FFXI you ultimately have number of slots equal to number of jobs, while in other games it usually limited to a lesser number. But this comes ain't free in FFXI - you need to do some quest to have "slots" for additional (advanced) jobs.
FFXI simply doesn't have "job builds" mechanic, besides equip-based builds - so there are no cost here. And changing equip-based build usually cost much more in FFXI than any re-skill in other games.
I bet that if FFXI had build mechanics - the cost of change will be absurdly high as usual to FFXI :) Even looking about replacing some items you can make a guess - 50 gold vs redoing DM for example :)

Quote:
Grinding xp to cap in FFXI didn't take much longer than getting to max level in other MMOs I've played. What made it seem like such an extended process was all the time waiting for a group.

Even now, after a lot of adjustments to exp, it takes at least twice as much to get to cap in FFXI as it is in WoW. Its not including getting to party and traveling. This even on assumption of FFXI party vs WoW solo. WoW party exping at ridiculous speed, especially with PL.

Quote:
Or mix it up and itemize so that you don't have to halt your character progression while you do an extensive grind for the next "mandatory" upgrade by giving lesser alternatives that let you keep plugging away at your character.

This depends on speed of progression. In FFXI where progression is slow, next "mandatory" upgrade becomes really mandatory and no lesser alternatives can solve it. In WoW - you just usecheap and available alternatives and never bother about "mandatory" progress. And there will be no middle - because either you need/forced to min-max or not.

Quote:
So you didn't like chocobos, airships, WHM teleports or warp items in FFXI?

I like them, but they are usually available after a certain period of playtime when it is expected that you already finished some part of learning curve, exploration, quests/missions and thus game now offer you an easining on your travel.
It's like giving some sort of free of pay HS at level 30 for everyone after rigorous quest - i am not against such solutions, and some sorts of travel is particulary done in this way (airships, tavnasian ring etc). But not for free, for everyone, and at level 1.

Quote:
Or maybe SE will do all of that but still make the progression process fun and engaging. I think that would be pretty sweet. Steady progression that's rewarding and entertaining the whole way through? Pffft...sign me up.

Unlike general opinion that "easy is good" - you should actually have a challenge to make thing interesting. Self-entertaining, which is primary issue with "too easy, too casual" playstyle - never last long - so it is necessary to add grind at some point of time - and every game does, even as popular in casual audience as WoW. And, as it seen, the only viable (i.e. interesting from the major playerbase) part of game is that requires grind and massive time sink.

Quote:
I think you're the first person in the history of the ZAM FFXIV forums to bring up a MUD. Nicely done. Not exactly a relevant comparison, however. MUDs were typically 100% free to play.

My point was that some ideas, beeing good in one game, is not suitable for others, because of difference in approach to gameplay.
Godwars MUD gameplay, beeing not available to replicate 100%, are very close to Arena PvP in Wow. You can reach cap level in 2-3 weeks, spend week to gain basic equip and shift focus entirely to Arena. You character progression will become self-sustanable by Arena and quite low relatively to other parts of game. But Arena PvP mostly not for your character progression, it is progression of you and your status as PvP player.
#115 Jul 02 2009 at 5:19 AM Rating: Good
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Final Fantasy has always been and will always be about having to fight/avoid monsters when traveling between any two points, but this is so you naturally gain experience while moving along in the story. For an online game, it's very different because you generally pick and choose when you want to level up. FFXI handles this by letting you dodge monsters, but it has gradually adopted quicker methods of travel because the world is just too big for its own good.

We want faster travel because when my friends want to start a party somewhere, it shouldn't take 20 minutes for me to get there. It's one thing if you all get together and then have a 20 minute expedition to get to a certain spot, but it's another when your friends are already in Whitegate and you have to take the boat because you set your home point to your home nation when you were leveling a new job. Remember that the devs said they wanted you to be able to accomplish something with only 40 minutes of playtime; in FFXI, that's usually not enough time to start a party and get from point A to point B.

A hearthstone-like item implies that FFXI's system of travel is adequate, but I think it's fairly obvious that an entirely different method for getting around the world would be better. Imagine being able to fly your own airship anywhere to pick up your friends! Now that would be a real game-changer, and we have no idea if FFXIV will implement something like that or maybe some other snazzy new way to get around. Either way, I'm positive we're in for a very different method of travel.

Bottom line: Hearthstone-like item hinges on what the world of FFXIV is like and how you'll be expected to travel. Since we don't know much of that, we can't really argue over the validity of such an item.
#116 Jul 02 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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TraumaFox wrote:
We want faster travel because when my friends want to start a party somewhere, it shouldn't take 20 minutes for me to get there. It's one thing if you all get together and then have a 20 minute expedition to get to a certain spot, but it's another when your friends are already in Whitegate and you have to take the boat because you set your home point to your home nation when you were leveling a new job. Remember that the devs said they wanted you to be able to accomplish something with only 40 minutes of playtime; in FFXI, that's usually not enough time to start a party and get from point A to point B.

I think that this is far more important problem to adress than having a free warp to home.
I would rather have cut traveling times by half, and certain travelling means (airships and boats) by 3-5 times, and still have large variety of transportation tools both to destination and back, than have a heartstone.

Besides - why does level 1 char needs to warp home? Even level 10 char? If we omit FFXI "immersive" distances, you shouldn't need a warp - you should still be relatively close to your hometown to not need any warping.
#117 Jul 02 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Thinking about it I used mounts in most MMOs way more than the warp systems. Most reuseable warp items had as standard a 45min-1hr cooldown so you still had to be reasonably tactical in their use.
#118 Jul 02 2009 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Warp Parchment
Level 1
5 charges
Recast 2 hour

Warp Tablet
Level 36
20 charges
Recast 2 hour

Warp Stone [Rare/Ex]
Level <cap>
40 charges
Recast 2 hour


This is something that I could work with. Having a 1 hour recast warp item since level one is way too much. But something like this that scales and allows you to stack multiple items if you need to warp constantly for some reason is great.
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#119 Jul 02 2009 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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TraumaFox wrote:

We want faster travel because when my friends want to start a party somewhere, it shouldn't take 20 minutes for me to get there. It's one thing if you all get together and then have a 20 minute expedition to get to a certain spot, but it's another when your friends are already in Whitegate and you have to take the boat because you set your home point to your home nation when you were leveling a new job. Remember that the devs said they wanted you to be able to accomplish something with only 40 minutes of playtime; in FFXI, that's usually not enough time to start a party and get from point A to point B.


If you finish Lure of the Wildcats you can warp to white gate from the nation you are currently in, so that answers that.

Quote:


A hearthstone-like item implies that FFXI's system of travel is adequate, but I think it's fairly obvious that an entirely different method for getting around the world would be better. Imagine being able to fly your own airship anywhere to pick up your friends! Now that would be a real game-changer, and we have no idea if FFXIV will implement something like that or maybe some other snazzy new way to get around. Either way, I'm positive we're in for a very different method of travel.

Bottom line: Hearthstone-like item hinges on what the world of FFXIV is like and how you'll be expected to travel. Since we don't know much of that, we can't really argue over the validity of such an item.


I personally thing whatever way they implement should not be handed to you from the get go but should be quested to receive it. Not a terribly high level quest maybe around the chocobo quest level.
#120 Jul 02 2009 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
We want faster travel because when my friends want to start a party somewhere, it shouldn't take 20 minutes for me to get there. It's one thing if you all get together and then have a 20 minute expedition to get to a certain spot, but it's another when your friends are already in Whitegate and you have to take the boat because you set your home point to your home nation when you were leveling a new job. Remember that the devs said they wanted you to be able to accomplish something with only 40 minutes of playtime; in FFXI, that's usually not enough time to start a party and get from point A to point B.


In ffxi it really only takes you a while to get somewhere if you're going there the first time. As your level increases and you explore more you get more outpost warps which makes getting to every region from your home nation very easy. At 20 you get a chocobo which makes travel twice as fast at minimum. Once you get to whitegate you can turn in the lure of the wildcat quests which allow you to warp from any starting city to whitegate quickly and easily. From whitegate you can then use the warp taru to send you to jeuno for the cost of a measly silver coin or you can take the free one. etc

I can get pretty much anywhere in vanadiel from anywhere else in vanadiel very, very quickly. It's a matter of spending a small amount of time to obtain the ability to get everywhere fast, rather than just having it at the start outright. This also helps the appeal of the game. When you're just starting out everything is huge and it takes a little while to go everywhere. But then as you become an expert adventurer it gets easier and easier to get anywhere.
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#121 Jul 02 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I can get pretty much anywhere in vanadiel from anywhere else in vanadiel very, very quickly. It's a matter of spending a small amount of time to obtain the ability to get everywhere fast, rather than just having it at the start outright. This also helps the appeal of the game. When you're just starting out everything is huge and it takes a little while to go everywhere. But then as you become an expert adventurer it gets easier and easier to get anywhere.


Didn't say FFXI doesn't work this way. My original statement was that convenient travel was indeed added over time, and the reason we want it is because we don't want to wait large stretches of time to get where we're going. The system could be improved, though (see below).

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If you finish Lure of the Wildcats you can warp to white gate from the nation you are currently in, so that answers that.


Well aware of this, it was just an example. I think one of the main issues is that there are way too many different ways to travel, each one being different depending on where you want to go. Teleport spells, Recall spells, Warp, Retrace, warp scrolls, Outposts, airships, boats, Warp Taru, Wildcat Badge, Mijin Gakure (lol), and they all have different requirements to be able to use them.

Should convenient travel be a reward to only those who have earned it? Sure, but how many different ways do I really need to do that?

Idea: Make personal airships the one convenient way to get between cities, chocobos for places airships can't go, and then the airship is your home point and Mog House of sorts which you can return to using some earned reward.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 11:47am by TraumaFox
#122 Jul 02 2009 at 7:41 AM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
Phess wrote:
Quote:
No, I'm saying that you can't suggest people haven't learned about proper planning because they prefer a free warp option on a cooldown over an option you have to pay for. It's an extraordinarily lame argument.

I suggest that HSing does not require any planning/decision making and FFXI way of home warping - does require.


What a trivial argument.

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Because other MMOs...most of them since FFXI...have demonstrated that the game isn't made lacking in any way because they offer a free return option.

Which one exactly?
WAR and WoW - they both geared heavily to end-game (PvE/Arena for WoW and RvR for WAR) - with almost non-existance of middle-game progression, crafting, exploring or any other activities besides end-game PvE/PvP.


So? What does that have to do with a free warp?

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Ya, and in RL you don't ride oversized chickens, use magic, or fight walking trees on your way to town. Don't bring RL comparisons into it...it's almost always a losing shenanigan.

But simple principle "You get what you pay for" - remains in both RL and MMO - maybe because people are the same in both.


Wrong, because in WoW, LOTRO, and other games, you get a free warp without paying it. You get it, and you don't pay for it.

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If you add fast transportation without cost - it will impair travelling, and as a result - exploration aspect of game.


There's a difference between heading out to explore because you want to, and dedicating a chunk of your session to travel because you have to. It won't impair traveling...it eases traveling, and if people want to explore, they're free to do so.

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As traveling to destination really need tweaks, and you additionally suggest making way back free and instaneous - we will see WoW type of traveling where nobody really care about travelling expenses and exploration difficulties.


That's the whole point. Not everything in a game needs to be accompanied by an obstacle. In fact, the more obstacles you build in, the smaller your playerbase will become over time.

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Exploration to be an viable part of game - should incur some danger and difficulties - or it will be dull and uninteresting.


So what does danger and difficulty while exploring have to do with a pay-to-warp system vs. a free one?

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Changing jobs in most games _are_ free as normally games have several slots for your twinks. What differs is that in FFXI you ultimately have number of slots equal to number of jobs, while in other games it usually limited to a lesser number. But this comes ain't free in FFXI - you need to do some quest to have "slots" for additional (advanced) jobs.


I didn't say changing jobs...I said changing builds of a character. You can create a new character in a game like FFXI and run to the nearest mog house and change to a completely different job for free. There is not (at any point) a cost associated with that job change. You can expand the list of available jobs via quests, but changing to those jobs once you've unlocked them remains free. So stop nitpicking stupid little details. Be a sport and admit that you're wrong when you say that having a game where not every basic function has a cost associated with it means the game is eventually going to bypass all content.

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FFXI simply doesn't have "job builds" mechanic, besides equip-based builds - so there are no cost here.


CHARACTER builds, and it most certainly does.

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Grinding xp to cap in FFXI didn't take much longer than getting to max level in other MMOs I've played. What made it seem like such an extended process was all the time waiting for a group.

Even now, after a lot of adjustments to exp, it takes at least twice as much to get to cap in FFXI as it is in WoW. Its not including getting to party and traveling. This even on assumption of FFXI party vs WoW solo. WoW party exping at ridiculous speed, especially with PL.


I think you're wrong. I think that the only way to gauge how long it takes to level in FFXI is to consider how much xp you need to get from 1 -> 75 on a given job and work it out based on what a reasonable average rate of xp/hour might be. If you did that, you'd find the difference isn't really all that significant.

[quote][quote]Or mix it up and itemize so that you don't have to halt your character progression while you do an extensive grind for the next "mandatory" upgrade by giving lesser alternatives that let you keep plugging away at your character.[/quote]
This depends on speed of progression. In FFXI where progression is slow, next "mandatory" upgrade becomes really mandatory and no lesser alternatives can solve it.[/quote]

Ya, and that's a problem for a lot of players. Farming for currency in an MMO should never be required in any significant amounts in order to progress your toon. It's bad design. The same with standing in the same area in the same zone for many, many hours camping NMs. They're neat features to have, but if a game is designed around those things as being a functional necessity, the subscriber base will shrink as a result of it.

[quote]In WoW - you just usecheap and available alternatives and never bother about "mandatory" progress. And there will be no middle - because either you need/forced to min-max or not.[/quote]

That's right, because inserting significant, involuntary roadblocks into the progression process is bad design. It's been proven bad design repeatedly. Unless an MMO developer decides ahead of time that they're creating a product aimed exclusively for the hardcore market, those roadblocks will shrink their subscriber base. That means they make less money, which translates to a less successful product, and no business in their right mind needlessly shrinks their income for the sake of "flavor".

[quote][quote]So you didn't like chocobos, airships, WHM teleports or warp items in FFXI?[/quote]
I like them, but they are usually available after a certain period of playtime when it is expected that you already finished some part of learning curve, exploration, quests/missions and thus game now offer you an easining on your travel.[/quote]

So in other words, you're just talking out of your *** when you say that faster and easier methods of travel ruin a game, because you had your chocobo license, airship pass, access to WHM teleports and warp items long before you could have possibly explored every zone in Vana'diel.

[quote]It's like giving some sort of free of pay HS at level 30 for everyone after rigorous quest - i am not against such solutions, and some sorts of travel is particulary done in this way (airships, tavnasian ring etc). But not for free, for everyone, and at level 1.[/quote]

Is it...is it so you could get to level thirty and do this "rigorous" quest and then run into the middle of a group of lowbies and use your zomfg uber item of free warp to enhance your e-peen? Is that what it's about? I fully appreciate and respect that you enjoy the grind aspects of FFXI. I wish you a great deal more enjoyment from that game if that's what you want. In this case however, we're talking about a new game that the devs have mentioned will be suited more to those players who are not interested in epic grinds in order to progress their character and achieve anything worthwhile. In that specific concept, perpetual items on a cooldown granted very, very early in the game make absolute sense.

[quote]Unlike general opinion that "easy is good" - you should actually have a challenge to make thing interesting. Self-entertaining, which is primary issue with "too easy, too casual" playstyle - never last long - so it is necessary to add grind at some point of time - and every game does, even as popular in casual audience as WoW. And, as it seen, the only viable (i.e. interesting from the major playerbase) part of game is that requires grind and massive time sink.[/quote]

Pffft...time sink does not entail challenge.

[quote]
Godwars MUD gameplay, beeing not available to replicate 100%, are very close to Arena PvP in Wow. You can reach cap level in 2-3 weeks, spend week to gain basic equip and shift focus entirely to Arena. You character progression will become self-sustanable by Arena and quite low relatively to other parts of game. But Arena PvP mostly not for your character progression, it is progression of you and your status as PvP player.
[/quote]

No, Arena PvP is not something most people do for progression. They do it because they really enjoy it, and only maybe 5% of the people who do it ever really progress at all. It's even been tuned to discourage people from milking Arena for gear that they want to use in a PvE setting. WoW arena PvP gives the rewards to the people who are successful, and if you aren't winning substantially more matches than you're losing, you get very, very little.

I'll say it again: time sink does not entail challenge, and time-sink is the antithesis of what SE has announced in terms of their goals for FFXIV. I'm not going to argue with you about things to change or not change in FFXIV, but your point of view is directly contrary to SE's stated intentions.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 2:44pm by AureliusSir
#123 Jul 02 2009 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius you broke quotes!

Epic.
#124 Jul 02 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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131 posts
TraumaFox wrote:


Idea: Make personal airships the one convenient way to get between cities, chocobos for places airships can't go, and then the airship is your home point and Mog House of sorts which you can return to using some earned reward.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 11:47am by TraumaFox


No offense to your idea, but I don't want to see 500 airships flying around or floating when people are AFK and just sit in their airship because it is safe. Last thing we need is air traffic like the Jetsons.
#125 Jul 02 2009 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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54 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
So? What does that have to do with a free warp?

Games that have no mid-game content are intended to have simple and easily accessible means to ease your life on the way through mid-game content.

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Wrong, because in WoW, LOTRO, and other games, you get a free warp without paying it. You get it, and you don't pay for it.

You don't understand. It's ain't free as you think it is. It basically means that those games have no real alternative to fast home-warping or at least 99% population doesn't have any clue about it. And when the problem of need to repeatable warping arise - nobody knows how to do it.
The whole transportation in WoW are overly-simplified. You have HS, you have flight-paths, you have ships - everything else, even if it exists - just unknown and thus not used. And if you need something besides standart travels - you have a trouble.
WoW in some cases can easily outmatch travelling time of FFXI because there almost no very fast travel routes.

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There's a difference between heading out to explore because you want to, and dedicating a chunk of your session to travel because you have to. It won't impair traveling...it eases traveling, and if people want to explore, they're free to do so.

Ok. In WoW it's very easy to travel. So no one exploring. As I said - something without challenge are dull and people get boring too fast of it.

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That's the whole point. Not everything in a game needs to be accompanied by an obstacle. In fact, the more obstacles you build in, the smaller your playerbase will become over time.

You need a balanced way of doing things. Not too overcomplicated and tedious as in FFXI, but not free as it's make this things obsolete. The problem of travelling in FFXI is not really in absence of free warp - you can always death warp in the end, the problem is in very long runs, which should be more reasonable.

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So what does danger and difficulty while exploring have to do with a pay-to-warp system vs. a free one?

Difficulty is in the fact that you should actually pay for your warp - so you just cannot run somewhere mindlessly in hope that magic button, that is free of use, can save you any time.

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I didn't say changing jobs...I said changing builds of a character. You can create a new character in a game like FFXI and run to the nearest mog house and change to a completely different job for free. There is not (at any point) a cost associated with that job change.

I thought you are more experienced and thoughtfull. I failed.
By "cost" I assume not exactly money cost, but everything that you must spent to get something - will it be time, efforts or simplification of game.

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CHARACTER builds, and it most certainly does.

Which one, besides subjob system for which you have to pay for access to?

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I think you're wrong. I think that the only way to gauge how long it takes to level in FFXI is to consider how much xp you need to get from 1 -> 75 on a given job and work it out based on what a reasonable average rate of xp/hour might be. If you did that, you'd find the difference isn't really all that significant.

You need 2.5 million exp from 1 to 75 including SJ to 37. This is 250 hours at rate of 10k/hour which is _very_ good exp rate and taking into account travelling time - hardly even attainable. Which is 10.5 days of 24/7 exping.
In WoW you can reach cap in 2-3 weeks of excessive exping with good support - which is much less than 2 weeks of 24/7.

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Ya, and that's a problem for a lot of players. Farming for currency in an MMO should never be required in any significant amounts in order to progress your toon. It's bad design. The same with standing in the same area in the same zone for many, many hours camping NMs. They're neat features to have, but if a game is designed around those things as being a functional necessity, the subscriber base will shrink as a result of it.

You know that you actually have to farm gold (or simply buy) to progress in WoW?

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That's right, because inserting significant, involuntary roadblocks into the progression process is bad design. It's been proven bad design repeatedly. Unless an MMO developer decides ahead of time that they're creating a product aimed exclusively for the hardcore market, those roadblocks will shrink their subscriber base. That means they make less money, which translates to a less successful product, and no business in their right mind needlessly shrinks their income for the sake of "flavor".

Bad design helps keep mid-game and interest in it.
Moreover, it is proven that only "bad design" keep people playing. You can look at WoW - nobody care about midgame, crafting, exploring, ingame economy (as player vs player trading) that have no involuntary roadblock. But all cares about end-game, that have very similar structure to whole FFXI progression, and of course have _a lot_ of roadblocks.

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So in other words, you're just talking out of your *** when you say that faster and easier methods of travel ruin a game, because you had your chocobo license, airship pass, access to WHM teleports and warp items long before you could have possibly explored every zone in Vana'diel.

Naturally, it is expected that you have access to transportation only after you explore certain segment. And this mean of transportation only affect explored segment - you can try to fiind me counter-example but everything from warp to teleports, airships, retrace and rings actually requires that you visit place before you can use fast transport there.

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In this case however, we're talking about a new game that the devs have mentioned will be suited more to those players who are not interested in epic grinds in order to progress their character and achieve anything worthwhile. In that specific concept, perpetual items on a cooldown granted very, very early in the game make absolute sense.

You are loosing your temper.
I didn't said that quest should be ultra-hard FFXI style. It can be just severe quest like any other (quest for warp scroll, for example).

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Pffft...time sink does not entail challenge.

Every challenge is time sink, of course. There no challenge that can be finished in seconds - so you actually have to spent some time to finish a challenge.

[quote]No, Arena PvP is not something most people do for progression. They do it because they really enjoy it, and only maybe 5% of the people who do it ever really progress at all. It's even been tuned to discourage people from milking Arena for gear that they want to use in a PvE setting. WoW arena PvP gives the rewards to the people who are successful, and if you aren't winning substantially more matches than you're losing, you get very, very little.[/quote]
Yes, so the whole Arena PvP is just an activity that add a little to character progression and actually serve for completly another purpose. This is actual the similaraty to godwars MUDs which are almost pure PvP.
So this is one of examples where character progression is omitted and that this idea hardly will be welcomed in FF game as they are tend to ignore PvP part.

[quote]I'll say it again: time sink does not entail challenge, and time-sink is the antithesis of what SE has announced in terms of their goals for FFXIV.[/quote]
Tell me please about this anti-thesis in respect to Hard modes or unnerfed dunj in WoW :)
And as for SE stated FFXIV - i heard that they will tone down difficulty - and I am glad to hear this - but i don't see neither giving things for free, or even emphasis on "fast travel to level cap".
#126 Jul 02 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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169 posts
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
In ffxi it really only takes you a while to get somewhere if you're going there the first time. As your level increases and you explore more you get more outpost warps which makes getting to every region from your home nation very easy. At 20 you get a chocobo which makes travel twice as fast at minimum. Once you get to whitegate you can turn in the lure of the wildcat quests which allow you to warp from any starting city to whitegate quickly and easily. From whitegate you can then use the warp taru to send you to jeuno for the cost of a measly silver coin or you can take the free one. etc


Also, FFXI's fast travel options aren't all "exact". You 'port somewhere, then still have to walk through a zone or two to get where you want to go.

Conversely, I think you could probably play LotRO without ever touching your movement keys at all, there are so many fast travel options available. It really does make the game feel like a slideshow of instanced areas rather than a whole, continuous world.

The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I can get pretty much anywhere in vanadiel from anywhere else in vanadiel very, very quickly.


I won't say I can get anywhere quickly (lowbie and all that), but I can get pretty much anywhere I want to go quickly. Then I have to sit around and wait on a friend who always takes the airship instead of OP warping...

===

EDIT:

Parade wrote:
No offense to your idea, but I don't want to see 500 airships flying around or floating when people are AFK and just sit in their airship because it is safe. Last thing we need is air traffic like the Jetsons.


...bdddddddDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDddddddddddddiiiiiwwwwwwwwwwww...

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 1:34pm by CapnCrass

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 1:37pm by CapnCrass
#127 Jul 02 2009 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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879 posts
Id be fine if warp cudgels were level 1.

A item that will be used by everyone, made by crafters and that actually has enough cooldown that you will either use and forget or lug around a couple like i do.

My only issue with the current cudgel system is that its level 36, so when im leveling a sub i need something else.

To tell the truth, FoV fixed that. Repatriation is *wonderful*.
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#128 Jul 02 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Phess wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
So? What does that have to do with a free warp?

Games that have no mid-game content are intended to have simple and easily accessible means to ease your life on the way through mid-game content.


I was going to do another point-by-point response to your post, but you summed up your end of things fairly nicely:

Phess wrote:
I failed.


Good call.
#129 Jul 02 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Default
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Reduce the cooldown time on the warp cudgel and call it something else?

Sure, I'm game.
#130 Jul 02 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Default
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If you don't like a certain feature don't use but there should always be another option.
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#131 Jul 02 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:

Phess wrote:
I failed.

Good call.

You are inconstructive and easily offended.
Just because I don't like your idea and can argue my position - you loose your temper and finally fall to unargumented personal offense.

Enjoy beeing a ******.
#132 Jul 02 2009 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
Phess wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Phess wrote:
I failed.

Good call.

You are inconstructive and easily offended.
Just because I don't like your idea and can argue my position - you loose your temper and finally fall to unargumented personal offense.

Enjoy beeing a ******.


Lose my temper? Naw.

And I'd have to say you can't argue your position, because you flip flop from one topic to the next so often that nothing ever really gets settled. If you can trump them with logic, baffle them with ********* ya? It's one thing to agree to disagree...it's another thing to keep shifting the source of disagreement around.

From what I can see, you're just another hardcore neophyte with a very limited perspective. FFXIV will not be tuned primarily to suit people like you, so I don't particularly care what malformed opinions you think you're able to argue. You've got your hardcore game. Enjoy it. You won't be hurting my feelings. You'll be enjoying your preferred style of play and if FFXIV shapes up in line with what the devs have suggested, I'll be enjoying mine.

It's interesting that you argue so heavily in favor of all things hardcore and nothing for nothing and yadda yadda and SE doesn't even agree with you...in FFXI. They're always tweaking and stripping out restrictions and trying to make things less of a time sink without gutting the game. They know the majority of people who still play FFXI are more of the hardcore group and I'm sure they don't want to alienate that crowd, but it seems an awful lot to me like they're investing a great deal of their development time and effort trying to figure out what they can do to attract a bit of new blood and keep the "not quite as hardcore" hardcore crowd from leaving. Besieged, FoV, signet/sanction buffs, instanced end-game content that doesn't require weeks of farming seals. The list goes on and on...and on. When FFXI first went live in North America, it seemed like every content patch or expansion came with a new roadblock. Now every content patch and/or expansion seems to come with a roadblock removal or bypass.

When the developers of the game reflect on it and acknowledge that the time sinks were not something they're wanting to duplicate in FFXIV, it tends to undermine the arguments of the people who advocate them.
#133 Jul 02 2009 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Lose my temper? Naw.


Do you even read your own posts?

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 2:26am by Shazaamemt

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 2:26am by Shazaamemt
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#134 Jul 02 2009 at 11:20 PM Rating: Default
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I belive similiar items from XI will be implemented in XIV. and I think if they added a "warp item" time limit it should be an hour if u warp a whole party.
#135 Jul 03 2009 at 4:39 AM Rating: Default
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I could see this not being so necessary if travel time weren't so long and tedious. I remember being stoked about getting my first airship pass, getting on my first airship, and then facepalming at how long it took.
#136 Jul 03 2009 at 4:59 AM Rating: Good
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54 posts
AureliusSir wrote:

And I'd have to say you can't argue your position, because you flip flop from one topic to the next so often that nothing ever really gets settled. If you can trump them with logic, baffle them with bullsh*t, ya? It's one thing to agree to disagree...it's another thing to keep shifting the source of disagreement around.

My position is very simple - it so strange that you see a fluctuations - "Do not give free stuff, it will break gameplay".

AureliusSir wrote:
From what I can see, you're just another hardcore neophyte with a very limited perspective. FFXIV will not be tuned primarily to suit people like you, so I don't particularly care what malformed opinions you think you're able to argue. You've got your hardcore game. Enjoy it. You won't be hurting my feelings. You'll be enjoying your preferred style of play and if FFXIV shapes up in line with what the devs have suggested, I'll be enjoying mine.

I just have an experience. I play substantial number of games, both hardcore and casual-style, PvE and PvP.
And I do care about both game-mechanics and social mechanics. So I have some ideas what will happens if you change something - in both gameplay and in social behaviour relatively to change. They are not always true, but at least I think before propose something and never gives arguments like "I like it, other game have it".

And also it's very strange to see that you marked me as hardcore for only opposing free stuff. I don't really care if game will have moderate, or even easy difficulty, just don't like when things became free - and thus worthless of efforts.

AureliusSir wrote:
It's interesting that you argue so heavily in favor of all things hardcore and nothing for nothing and yadda yadda and SE doesn't even agree with you...in FFXI.

Besieged, FoV, signet/sanction buffs, instanced end-game content that doesn't require weeks of farming seals. The list goes on and on...and on. When FFXI first went live in North America, it seemed like every content patch or expansion came with a new roadblock. Now every content patch and/or expansion seems to come with a roadblock removal or bypass.

I strongly disagree with you. S-E did a good job of making game more friendly to newbie players and players who just want to spend some time in game. And even so, nothing was given for free. FoV adds easy way to port to your home town - but it still require some effort (as it spends tabs)
As for middle-to-end-game content there appears even more roadblocks - there were no such time-sinks that were prolonged over a large period of time in previous expansions.
You can reach end of Dynamis in 18 days and farm there every other 3 days. For Odin you need 30 days to reach him and should at least wait 12 days, and if you are not using abuse of putting aside people with 9 feather - you should wait 30 days for your next attempt. In WoTG it simply take months to reach final medal - thanks to 5 days restriction on receiving next medal - there were no such harsh limitations in previous expansions.
#137 Jul 03 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
Phess wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

And I'd have to say you can't argue your position, because you flip flop from one topic to the next so often that nothing ever really gets settled. If you can trump them with logic, baffle them with bullsh*t, ya? It's one thing to agree to disagree...it's another thing to keep shifting the source of disagreement around.

My position is very simple - it so strange that you see a fluctuations - "Do not give free stuff, it will break gameplay".


Ya...and when I counter with one example where "free" hasn't broken gameplay, you ignore it and hop to something else.

Quote:
Quote:
From what I can see, you're just another hardcore neophyte with a very limited perspective. FFXIV will not be tuned primarily to suit people like you, so I don't particularly care what malformed opinions you think you're able to argue. You've got your hardcore game. Enjoy it. You won't be hurting my feelings. You'll be enjoying your preferred style of play and if FFXIV shapes up in line with what the devs have suggested, I'll be enjoying mine.

I just have an experience. I play substantial number of games, both hardcore and casual-style, PvE and PvP.
And I do care about both game-mechanics and social mechanics. So I have some ideas what will happens if you change something - in both gameplay and in social behaviour relatively to change. They are not always true, but at least I think before propose something and never gives arguments like "I like it, other game have it".


I've never used the argument "another game has it" as my reason for preferring one thing over another. You apparently know very little about game mechanics or social mechanics. All of your claims are 100% speculation. You hold a minority position in terms of your preferences yet you speak as though you represent the majority of the MMO playerbase. You very clearly don't. You barely represent yourself. You argue that free perpetual warp items don't teach people how to plan. Because picking up a warp scroll or farming for a cudgel involved such an extraordinary amount of planning that the difference is in any way significant. Right.

You argue that free warp items have a negative impact on exploration when nothing could be farther from the truth. It encourages exploration because if you find yourself way out in the middle of nowhere, you can explore until you're out of time for the session if you want and then get a quick trip home...and you didn't decide not to go exploring because you didn't want to fork out for the return option.

Quote:
And also it's very strange to see that you marked me as hardcore for only opposing free stuff. I don't really care if game will have moderate, or even easy difficulty, just don't like when things became free - and thus worthless of efforts.


We're not talking about free "stuff" (general/plural). We're talking about a free warp every <x> amount of time. It's such a minor, minor detail in the grand scheme of an MMO that your Chicken Little view of how it will impact the players and community overall is bordering on laughable.

Quote:

I strongly disagree with you. S-E did a good job of making game more friendly to newbie players and players who just want to spend some time in game. And even so, nothing was given for free. FoV adds easy way to port to your home town - but it still require some effort (as it spends tabs)
As for middle-to-end-game content there appears even more roadblocks - there were no such time-sinks that were prolonged over a large period of time in previous expansions.
You can reach end of Dynamis in 18 days and farm there every other 3 days. For Odin you need 30 days to reach him and should at least wait 12 days, and if you are not using abuse of putting aside people with 9 feather - you should wait 30 days for your next attempt. In WoTG it simply take months to reach final medal - thanks to 5 days restriction on receiving next medal - there were no such harsh limitations in previous expansions.


Are you talking about lockouts, or are you talking about time sinks? There's a difference.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 8:08am by AureliusSir
#138 Jul 03 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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54 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Ya...and when I counter with one example where "free" hasn't broken gameplay, you ignore it and hop to something else.

Which one exactly?
If you mean WoW/WAR/similar games - "free" exp/items/traveling certainly _broke_ midgame and linked activities in WoW&Co. Or you really think that midgame in WoW is something of value?

Quote:
I've never used the argument "another game has it" as my reason for preferring one thing over another.

You used it as argument that FFXIV should have idea that you like. I told nothing about your motive of liking an idea - I really don't care why you like it.

Quote:
You apparently know very little about game mechanics or social mechanics. All of your claims are 100% speculation.

You can proove me wrong, of course?

Quote:
You hold a minority position in terms of your preferences yet you speak as though you represent the majority of the MMO playerbase. You very clearly don't. You barely represent yourself. You argue that free perpetual warp items don't teach people how to plan. Because picking up a warp scroll or farming for a cudgel involved such an extraordinary amount of planning that the difference is in any way significant. Right.

You are messing my word and trying to offense me with false accusation. It will not work with me.
What I really said - that free warp does not offer any planning and paid warp - does. As a result you should learn planning way to return home in FFXI - and should not in WoW.

Quote:
You argue that free warp items have a negative impact on exploration when nothing could be farther from the truth. It encourages exploration because if you find yourself way out in the middle of nowhere, you can explore.

You understand nothing in human psychology. Why ever bother with exploration if it doesn't give you a reward? Casual-style gameplay when you should entertain yourself - never last long. And if you want reward for exploration - there should be some difficulties (as free reward satisfaction lasts seconds) - and normally one of such reward is satisfaction of accomplishment of something difficult.

And please, stop implying that I know nothing, without any proofs - because, based on your "ideas" and comments (especially nice ones about ******************** ) - you really have a little idea what is the real depth of MMO games and what about am I talking.

Quote:
We're not talking about free "stuff" (general/plural). We're talking about a free warp every <x> amount of time. It's such a minor, minor detail in the grand scheme of an MMO that your Chicken Little view of how it will impact the players and community overall is bordering on laughable.

Every little details have some consequencies.
Based on your comments I suggest that you never heard about phrases - "Devil in the details" and "Does the flap of a butterfly’s wings in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas". They show that even minor detail can have serious consequencies.

Quote:
Are you talking about lockouts, or are you talking about time sinks? There's a difference.

I think it will be hard to understand, but lockouts is a sort of timesink - just distributed in time.
#139 Jul 03 2009 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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316 posts
Phess wrote:

If you mean WoW/WAR/similar games - "free" exp/items/traveling certainly _broke_ midgame and linked activities in WoW&Co. Or you really think that midgame in WoW is something of value?


How on earth has easy travelling "broken" WoW midgame?
#140 Jul 03 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Default
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54 posts
SEforPrez wrote:
How on earth has easy travelling "broken" WoW midgame?

No normal player care about midgame in WoW - there are a number of reasons and one of them - that it just too easy - so people just pass through mid-game (very fast) without taking any attention to it.
#141 Jul 03 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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22,699 posts
Phess wrote:
SEforPrez wrote:
How on earth has easy travelling "broken" WoW midgame?

No normal player care about midgame in WoW - there are a number of reasons and one of them - that it just too easy - so people just pass through mid-game (very fast) without taking any attention to it.


Travel didn't break WoW midgame. WoW never had a midgame.
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#142 Jul 03 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Phess wrote:

If you mean WoW/WAR/similar games - "free" exp/items/traveling certainly _broke_ midgame and linked activities in WoW&Co. Or you really think that midgame in WoW is something of value?


Midgame in WoW is just as diverse as it is in FFXI...it's just that very few people PUG it, so if you have no friends you have a hard time getting to see it. People run the mid-game content in friend/guild groups (quite often at-level) all the time. You don't have to spend very long at any given summoning stone to see groups of people heading in. This is especially true on PvP realms where folks tend to gravitate towards instanced content in groups a lot more because they can have fun and play the game without having to worry about getting ganked, but it happens on PvE realms as well.

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I've never used the argument "another game has it" as my reason for preferring one thing over another.

You used it as argument that FFXIV should have idea that you like. I told nothing about your motive of liking an idea - I really don't care why you like it.


No, I referenced other games as examples of how it has been successfully implemented. I like it because I like it, not simply because another game has it.

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You apparently know very little about game mechanics or social mechanics. All of your claims are 100% speculation.

You can proove me wrong, of course?


You're going off in every direction trying to prove why one isolated feature breaks a game. It doesn't. You can't prove that it does, and since you're the one making the claim that a hearthstone-like feature in another MMO will apparently break the game, it's up to you to prove how that might happen. You haven't done that. You haven't even come close. Ergo, you apparently know little about game mechanics.

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You hold a minority position in terms of your preferences yet you speak as though you represent the majority of the MMO playerbase. You very clearly don't. You barely represent yourself. You argue that free perpetual warp items don't teach people how to plan. Because picking up a warp scroll or farming for a cudgel involved such an extraordinary amount of planning that the difference is in any way significant. Right.

You are messing my word and trying to offense me with false accusation. It will not work with me.
What I really said - that free warp does not offer any planning and paid warp - does. As a result you should learn planning way to return home in FFXI - and should not in WoW.


Tell me...what is this "planning" you speak of? You keep mentioning planning. Stopping by an NPC or the auction house is planning to you? Grinding gil or spending CP on warp scrolls instead of other things is planning to you? I don't see the "planning" end of things...I see the mandated time sink. That's all. I think maybe it's a language gap at this point that's contributing to the level of understanding...something tells me you're thinking the word "planning" means something other than what it actually means.

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You argue that free warp items have a negative impact on exploration when nothing could be farther from the truth. It encourages exploration because if you find yourself way out in the middle of nowhere, you can explore.

You understand nothing in human psychology.


I'm a psych major and have over 250 hours logged as a volunteer crisis counselor. Those two things together do not a clinical practice make, but I'll bet you I could offer a much more enlightened discussion on the benefits of self-determination than you could, and that's what this comes down to. The free warp item gives people the freedom to go where they want and as long as they survive the trip, they can get back quickly and easily. The "pay per use" items offer the exact same functionality, but they are accompanied by the requirement of going out and accumulating the currency necessary to buy them. They don't have to worry that they're setting aside their gil for something else. They don't have to worry that the xp party scene has been slow and they've been burning through more CP on warp scrolls than they've been earning. They just go.

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Why ever bother with exploration if it doesn't give you a reward?


Umm...what reward is it you think you should get for exploring that's relevant to this discussion. (Protip: WoW actually offers more of a reward for exploring than FFXI does. Keep than in mind when phrasing your response.)

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Casual-style gameplay when you should entertain yourself - never last long. And if you want reward for exploration - there should be some difficulties (as free reward satisfaction lasts seconds) - and normally one of such reward is satisfaction of accomplishment of something difficult.


If you want difficulty in an MMO, you rarely have to look hard to find it. In games that make solo character development possible, you get to scale your own difficulty. If fighting one at-level mob at a time is too boring and unrewarding for you, fight more at a time or go fight higher level mobs. It's up to you. Another delightful implementation that supports self-determination. You want a casual romp to mindlessly kill stuff and unwind at the end of the day? You can do that. You want to push your limits and challenge yourself? You can do that too.

That does not, however, mean that everything in the game need represent a time sink. Not everything in the game needs to require a prerequisite, be it a significant amount of time or currency. It's about balancing the "nice to do" aspects with the "need to do" aspects that gives players the sense that they aren't being forced down one narrow path by the developers.

Quote:
And please, stop implying that I know nothing, without any proofs - because, based on your "ideas" and comments (especially nice ones about "bullsh*t" ) - you really have a little idea what is the real depth of MMO games and what about am I talking.


And what is that depth? Time sinks as far as the eye can see? Again...you're in the severe minority of MMO gamers if you think time sinks are necessary in all aspects of the game in order for it to be successful. You say you're not opposed to having more casual aspects here and there and whatever, yet somehow a free hourly warp is an issue for you. If you want to speak to all of the aspects that represent concerns in a casual MMO, then speak to all aspects. As soon as you try to tie them all in to the viability of access to a free hourly warp, you're just making a right sodding **** of yourself. It's a pathetic, weak, and uninformed argument, and since you're the one putting it forward, you need to offer more by way of proof that it's so horribly game breaking than simply drifting from one unrelated topic to the next.

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[quote]We're not talking about free "stuff" (general/plural). We're talking about a free warp every <x> amount of time. It's such a minor, minor detail in the grand scheme of an MMO that your Chicken Little view of how it will impact the players and community overall is bordering on laughable.

Every little details have some consequencies.
Based on your comments I suggest that you never heard about phrases - "Devil in the details" and "Does the flap of a butterfly’s wings in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas". They show that even minor detail can have serious consequencies.[/quote]

I think you overestimate the "consequences" of a free hourly warp.

[quote][quote]Are you talking about lockouts, or are you talking about time sinks? There's a difference.[/quote]
I think it will be hard to understand, but lockouts is a sort of timesink - just distributed in time.
[/quote]

No, a lockout is not a timesink. Time sinks are things that you have to invest time in directly. Grinding xp is a time sink. Farming gold is a time sink. Travel is a time sink. Quests involving killing mobs for drop items are time sinks. How large or small the time sink is depends on how much xp you need, or how much currency you need, or what travel options you have available, or the drop rate of the items. Lockouts are not time sinks. Once set, the lockout period advances without direct interaction from the player. Would you call the weekly conquest tally a time sink? I'd hope not, because that would be silly.

You can't escape time sinks in an MMO. If you want to take the concept literally, an MMO is a time sink, and a savvy developer will understand that and take a serious look at what things within that MMO require the direct interaction of the player and what things require little or any interaction at all. Free warp items have been proven a very popular benefit in other MMOs because it's just a **** handy thing to have around. If a developer wanted to add another layer on top of that to allow more frequent warping for a fee of some sort, I'm sure that would be fine.
#143 Jul 03 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
Sage
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114 posts
I'm probably a bit late on this one, and I had to skip a lot of the text walls, so if something like this has already been said, I apologize, but if you tried hard enough, you'd be able to say "X is too much like ____!", no matter what the suggestion is. Hearthstone is just an example, and actually a good one as it's one nearly everyone knows.

Deadgye probably had the best suggestion (that I saw. Did you quote someone or just put it in the quotes to make it look nicer?), though one thing that I don't like too much about it is that it'd most likely be harder for the newer player to keep it charged, and they're the ones that would be most likely to get stuck. That, however, is veeery easy to get around, so it's a weak point, and that's why I agree with him.

Heck, you hardly even need the higher level ones, since with a two hour cooldown, I doubt you're going to go through more than five charges without getting to a point where you can recharge it.

Either way, I'm in favor of some form of leisurely way to get to a home point. It's not necessary to make someone run back every time, and it's not necessary to make it hard to get. It's also a nice escape button for new/low level players that either get lost or would have trouble trekking back through the high level mobs if they explore a little and wind up somewhere crazy.
#144 Jul 03 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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597 posts
Skeptic wrote:
There are tons of ways you can return to your Home Point already, why add another? =/


ditx wrote:
what exactly is wrong with Scroll of warp or even just the spell?


The hearthstone is free, it's reusable, and it's not specific to any class. It's superior to the warp scroll/spell in every way.
____________________________
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Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#145 Jul 03 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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329 posts
Quote:
Tell me...what is this "planning" you speak of? You keep mentioning planning. Stopping by an NPC or the auction house is planning to you? Grinding gil or spending CP on warp scrolls instead of other things is planning to you? I don't see the "planning" end of things...I see the mandated time sink. That's all. I think maybe it's a language gap at this point that's contributing to the level of understanding...something tells me you're thinking the word "planning" means something other than what it actually means.


You can't see that having to plan out the most efficient way home after heading out for an adventure is a form of micro-management?

Do you want to spend gil or do you want to spend CP or do you want to spend AN?

Is there an Outpost near where you're going, and is it controlled by your nation?

Is there a Field Manual near where you're going?

If you need to bring your own Warp is your Cudgel ready to go or is it on cool-down from earlier?

Are you going to be doing something later that will require you to Warp again? If so do you won't be able to use the same cudgel twice so you better have a backup plan.

Or even, is there going to be a BLM or even a WHM with you who can transport you after?

Yes it's all very basic decision making, and if you know where you're going, what options you have available, and whether you're a gil or points type person the process barely even takes a second, so It's understandable that you're so quick to overlook it. But being that it's such basic decision making, why does it need to be even more simplistic by being free, where does this desire to change SE's already functioning system into the one every other game uses come from, and what is this 'time sink' you keep referring to?

The only time sinks I can imagine you mean are;

-Earning CP. CP is easy to come by. No one farms CP and yet nearly everyone has more CP than they could ever spend, especially if they plan ahead and micro-manage it well. You get CP just by playing the game. The only reason someone might be hesitant to spend CP on Warp scrolls is that they're saving for one of the few ra/ex pieces of CP gear in the game. Well guess what, that's more micro-management of funds, more planning, do you need that 750 CP for a piece of gear or is it worth spending for a ride home?

-Earning gil for a Cudgel. Cudgels are cheap and will always be cheap relative to the economy. If you go out to XP and use a cudgel to get back home the random **** that dropped during the session will more than pay for the warp charge you used to get home. In most zones you could just kill one beastman and the gil he drops will cover the charge of a Warp Cudgel. But alas, gil is gil and other things in game cost gil as well, so I suppose making the decision to spend yours on a Warp Cudgel is yet another form of managing your funds and planning ahead.

-Having to walk back from wherever you've gone. Well... the people who do this are probably the same people who disregard warp as a form of planning.

The reasons I don't want a free warp for everyone every hour are;

-I like putting thought into even the most mundane tasks. Nothing turns me off more than being able to turn off my brain and still succeed.

-Putting items like Warp Cudgels into the hands of crafters contributes to a player driven economy. Sure it's only one item but the more the merrier.

Now I realize neither of those points are exceptionally compelling, but travel isn't really the most compelling aspect of the game. So I ask you, what are your reasons for so adamantly wanting a free warp every hour besides "Because I like it" or "Because every other game has it" since both of those basically equate to "Because", and if I was a game developer I wouldn't replace the functioning and somewhat unique system I've created with the 'industry standard' just "Because".
#146 Jul 03 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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329 posts
Quote:
Deadgye probably had the best suggestion (that I saw. Did you quote someone or just put it in the quotes to make it look nicer?), though one thing that I don't like too much about it is that it'd most likely be harder for the newer player to keep it charged, and they're the ones that would be most likely to get stuck. That, however, is veeery easy to get around, so it's a weak point, and that's why I agree with him.


That was one of mine, though he did put more thought into the number of charges and the length of cooldown and edited it accordingly. :)
#147 Jul 03 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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54 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Midgame in WoW is just as diverse as it is in FFXI... This is especially true on PvP realms where folks tend to gravitate towards instanced content in groups a lot more because they can have fun and play the game without having to worry about getting ganked, but it happens on PvE realms as well.

There is some difference between diverse, actively used, and beeing of importance.
You maybe forgetting, but I also spend 2 years (on PvP realms as I am also skilled PvP player ;) ) in WoW - and everyone used midgame instances only as a source of free equip and rare people really go lot of times to the same instance. It's seems not that bad, but as result middle-tier instances were rarely tweaked (as considered not-so-important) and of course quality and addition of mid-game content were nowhere near FFXI. It was just pass-through content - something that should fill the void before you finally get to end-game.

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No, I referenced other games as examples of how it has been successfully implemented. I like it because I like it, not simply because another game has it.

Again - where is the proof that it is successful? Besides your unargumented opinion, of course.

Quote:
You're going off in every direction trying to prove why one isolated feature breaks a game. It doesn't. You can't prove that it does, and since you're the one making the claim that a hearthstone-like feature in another MMO will apparently break the game, it's up to you to prove how that might happen. You haven't done that. You haven't even come close. Ergo, you apparently know little about game mechanics.

I put some arguments and examples - you just discarded them called them "bullsh*t".
As I already stated - one feature hardly break completely a certain gameplay element, but it put a crack to it. Given that FFXI travel system already (by common opinion that I agree with) need an adjustment - adding free features can put just too much pressure to it - and eventually broke it.

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Tell me...what is this "planning" you speak of? You keep mentioning planning. Stopping by an NPC or the auction house is planning to you?

Planning - have to think in advance to prevent/adjust/organize things in future.
I can go into details of probability space concept and importance of forecasting - but i think this forum is not exact place for this discussion.

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I'm a psych major and have over 250 hours logged as a volunteer crisis counselor. Those two things together do not a clinical practice make, but I'll bet you I could offer a much more enlightened discussion on the benefits of self-determination than you could, and that's what this comes down to.

I strongly doubt as I consider, based on my experience, that educated psych just too soft. The psychology (at least in behaviour patterns part) are harsh and unhuman - and this is not what "help me with my trouble" psych should know about.

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The free warp item gives people the freedom to go where they want and as long as they survive the trip, they can get back quickly and easily. They just go.

As you beeing an educated psych - than tell me - what the point of going somewhere to explore in WoW for example?
Running based on enthusiasm - this will atract no more than 10% of population. Other reasons in WoW are just too weak and unrewarding.

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Umm...what reward is it you think you should get for exploring that's relevant to this discussion. (Protip: WoW actually offers more of a reward for exploring than FFXI does. Keep than in mind when phrasing your response.)

50 exp per open map? Crappy quest reward? Are you joking?

Quote:
If you want difficulty in an MMO, you rarely have to look hard to find it. In games that make solo character development possible, you get to scale your own difficulty.
That does not, however, mean that everything in the game need represent a time sink. It's about balancing the "nice to do" aspects with the "need to do" aspects that gives players the sense that they aren't being forced down one narrow path by the developers.

Ok. Then tell me - what is a good aspect of WoW so I can play there for, like, 6 month and get thing to do. And please - think carefully before - as your provide time-sink activities (like inst-dungeons and PvP) - I will certainly laugh at you. WoW, in abstract scale, have the same time-sink problem as FFXI. It just done in move convinient and transparent way.

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And what is that depth? Time sinks as far as the eye can see? Again...you're in the severe minority of MMO gamers if you think time sinks are necessary in all aspects of the game in order for it to be successful.

WoW at the end-game consist purely of time-sink - be it raids or PvP. I raided Ragnaros before BWL came out, I got to Rank11 at the same time - both activities require simple grind and a lot of it. When I came back at BC era - nothing really changed, it became even harder because now you had to farm prerequisite instances for all members - and re-farm them if you have a new member (in case he not already had them) - it was huge time sink - and this is in "most popular and casual friendly" game.

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As soon as you try to tie them all in to the viability of access to a free hourly warp, you're just making a right sodding **** of yourself. It's a pathetic, weak, and uninformed argument, and since you're the one putting it forward, you need to offer more by way of proof that it's so horribly game breaking than simply drifting from one unrelated topic to the next.

Its already a lot of casualness if FFXI. It just not "completely free" as you want to see it. It still requires a bit of thought whether it use, relatively free, or not. Not just mindless - "1 hour is nothing" clicking on HS button.

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I think you overestimate the "consequences" of a free hourly warp.

Why? Can you prove me wrong?

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No, a lockout is not a timesink. Time sinks are things that you have to invest time in directly. Grinding xp is a time sink. Farming gold is a time sink. Travel is a time sink.

You are too simple-minded, and I think you should stay in WoW - it is a good game for you.
It's very simple, very convinient and very "nice" and genius idea how to "optimize" time-sinks so players will hardly notice them. Besides - timesinks is what keep players playing - and thus paying money.
From your point of view it seems that lockouts really cost nothing - but if you put some statistic (and behaviour of course) analysis - you will understand that if you need some activity once per, let say 3 days, you have high probability that people will also spend some time inbetween this interval - even if they doesn't like enough activities to attend them by themselves (without lockout event). It's just stretching interesting activities across the time line to force people spend some time in game.
For more experienced/unmotivated (besides given event) players it will degrade to almost spikes at event dates, but overall it will keep people playing and spend time in game (and more than just event time).

From my point of view - timesink is any activities when force you play a game for a some artifical reason - not only direct ones (like farm or grind) but also inderect ones (like waiting for lockout to expire).


Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 6:40pm by Phess
#148 Jul 03 2009 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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132 posts
I don't know why people see collecting the necessary materials (CP, gil etc.) for the warp items in FFXI as a time sink. Never once have I had to spend time going out to actually farm things in order to obtain one. When I am in the level 1-10 range, I just run back to town, it's not far. When I head to Valkurm, I gain enough levels to only need to head there a couple of times. Qufim is same boat as level 1-10. Yuhtuhga jungle entrance needs a warp scroll? And now you are at least level 26. And at such a low level, should you die to warp back, it isn't exactly a massive loss now is it?

The point I am trying to make is, you don't need to warp back every single time you head out. The amount of times you need to warp before you get the warp cudgel (which is an amazing item) does not warrant the use of a free warp item. And generally you should always carry a warp scroll with the cudgel if you are heading out.

I have had times when people in my party didn't have a warp scroll so the whole party was friendly enough to escort him/her back to a safe zone. A little extra time, yes, but still fun and enjoyable.
#149 Jul 03 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Phess wrote:

There is some difference between diverse, actively used, and beeing of importance.
You maybe forgetting, but I also spend 2 years (on PvP realms as I am also skilled PvP player ;) ) in WoW - and everyone used midgame instances only as a source of free equip and rare people really go lot of times to the same instance. It's seems not that bad, but as result middle-tier instances were rarely tweaked (as considered not-so-important) and of course quality and addition of mid-game content were nowhere near FFXI. It was just pass-through content - something that should fill the void before you finally get to end-game.


And that has approximately what to do with warp scrolls/cudgels/hearthstones. You brought up midgame. You brought up how warp items contribute to the breaking of midgame. Now you're talking about an absence of dev attention on midgame as the cause. Hmmm...maybe it wasn't the hearthstone after all and the fact that players aren't so interested in the content that they want to PUG it. Holy sh*t. Did we just make a breakthrough in reason? By golly, I think we did. It, in fact, had nothing to do with the hearthstone and everything to do with the choices of the players. Good gawd man...I never thought we'd share that moment. I think I need a friggin' cigarette...

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No, I referenced other games as examples of how it has been successfully implemented. I like it because I like it, not simply because another game has it.

Again - where is the proof that it is successful? Besides your unargumented opinion, of course.


Well, ya, there is proof that it's successful. Lots of proof. Do we need to go into it or can you figure it out for yourself?

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You're going off in every direction trying to prove why one isolated feature breaks a game. It doesn't. You can't prove that it does, and since you're the one making the claim that a hearthstone-like feature in another MMO will apparently break the game, it's up to you to prove how that might happen. You haven't done that. You haven't even come close. Ergo, you apparently know little about game mechanics.

I put some arguments and examples - you just discarded them called them "bullsh*t".


Ya, because that's what they are. You're pulling arguments out of your *** to justify why your minority position on what makes an MMO good should be extended to influence everyone else.

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As I already stated - one feature hardly break completely a certain gameplay element, but it put a crack to it. Given that FFXI travel system already (by common opinion that I agree with) need an adjustment - adding free features can put just too much pressure to it - and eventually broke it.


Adding...free features...makes something worse...? "Perks" are bad? Freedom is bad? Are you posting from China?

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Tell me...what is this "planning" you speak of? You keep mentioning planning. Stopping by an NPC or the auction house is planning to you?

Planning - have to think in advance to prevent/adjust/organize things in future.


Right...and of all the things you could devote that planning effort into, the trip home really needs to be one of them. Roger that. Bloody ****...

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I can go into details of probability space concept and importance of forecasting - but i think this forum is not exact place for this discussion.


Ya...umm...right.

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I'm a psych major and have over 250 hours logged as a volunteer crisis counselor. Those two things together do not a clinical practice make, but I'll bet you I could offer a much more enlightened discussion on the benefits of self-determination than you could, and that's what this comes down to.

I strongly doubt as I consider, based on my experience,


And what experience would that be?

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Quote:
The free warp item gives people the freedom to go where they want and as long as they survive the trip, they can get back quickly and easily. They just go.

As you beeing an educated psych - than tell me - what the point of going somewhere to explore in WoW for example?
Running based on enthusiasm - this will atract no more than 10% of population. Other reasons in WoW are just too weak and unrewarding.


Achievements and xp. What rewards are there in FFXI for exploration?

[quote][quote]Umm...what reward is it you think you should get for exploring that's relevant to this discussion. (Protip: WoW actually offers more of a reward for exploring than FFXI does. Keep than in mind when phrasing your response.)[/quote]
50 exp per open map? Crappy quest reward? Are you joking?[/quote]

Compared to what in FFXI, exactly?

[quote][quote]If you want difficulty in an MMO, you rarely have to look hard to find it. In games that make solo character development possible, you get to scale your own difficulty.
That does not, however, mean that everything in the game need represent a time sink. It's about balancing the "nice to do" aspects with the "need to do" aspects that gives players the sense that they aren't being forced down one narrow path by the developers.[/quote]
Ok. Then tell me - what is a good aspect of WoW so I can play there for, like, 6 month and get thing to do. And please - think carefully before - as your provide time-sink activities (like inst-dungeons and PvP) - I will certainly laugh at you. WoW, in abstract scale, have the same time-sink problem as FFXI. It just done in move convinient and transparent way.[/quote]

Right, so if one implements selective use of time sinks and the other one builds the entire game around them, which is the most successful? All things aside, I'd have to say it's the game with 20 times the active subscriptions. That's just me, though.

[quote][quote]And what is that depth? Time sinks as far as the eye can see? Again...you're in the severe minority of MMO gamers if you think time sinks are necessary in all aspects of the game in order for it to be successful.[/quote]
WoW at the end-game consist purely of time-sink - be it raids or PvP. I raided Ragnaros before BWL came out, I got to Rank11 at the same time - both activities require simple grind and a lot of it. When I came back at BC era - nothing really changed, it became even harder because now you had to farm prerequisite instances for all members - and re-farm them if you have a new member (in case he not already had them) - it was huge time sink - and this is in "most popular and casual friendly" game.[/quote]

Ya, and when you were done your raid in WoW, you could hearth out whether you had been grinding mobs for hours beforehand or not! Yippee!!

[quote]
Its already a lot of casualness if FFXI. It just not "completely free" as you want to see it. It still requires a bit of thought whether it use, relatively free, or not. Not just mindless - "1 hour is nothing" clicking on HS button.[/quote]

Compared to mindless "gil/CP are nothing" selecting FFXI warp item?

[quote][quote]I think you overestimate the "consequences" of a free hourly warp.[/quote]
Why? Can you prove me wrong?[/quote]

Can you prove yourself right?

[quote]statistic (and behaviour of course) analysis - you will understand that if you need some activity once per, let say 3 days, you have high probability that people will also spend some time inbetween this interval - even if they doesn't like enough activities to attend them by themselves (without lockout event). It's just stretching interesting activities across the time line to force people spend some time in game.
For more experienced/unmotivated (besides given event) players it will degrade to almost spikes at event dates, but overall it will keep people playing and spend time in game (and more than just event time).[/quote]

So...sort of like raid lockouts in WoW? Nobody in WoW sees the raid lockouts as a timesink. Players are actually being given the option to extend the lockouts so less progressed guilds have more time to work through the content. Top guilds sometimes get frustrated by the lockouts, but they don't label them a timesink, because...well...they're not a timesink.

[quote]From my point of view - timesink is any activities when force you play a game for a some artifical reason - not only direct ones (like farm or grind) but also inderect ones (like waiting for lockout to expire).[/quote]

Ya, and I could say that bananas are the ultimate projectile for armed subarctic skirmishes, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. You can make up your own definitions all you want. Enjoy your hardcore grind. I guess I won't be seeing you in FFXIV.


Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 4:43pm by AureliusSir
#150 Jul 03 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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456 posts
Quote:
Enjoy your hardcore grind. I guess I won't be seeing you in FFXIV.


I'm not getting in this for the most part, but statements like that, make me laugh. Nobody knows how ffxiv will be it is all speculation, "a bit more casual" doesn't mean there will be no hardcore grinds in the game. All it means is there will be some casual content, exactly how much or how little is up in the air, no one but SE knows that. It in no way means everything thought of "casual" will be in the game, nor does it mean that anything thought as "hardcore" will be out of the game. I mean making the level grind easier makes the game "a bit more casual", and that is just one thing that automatically makes it "aimed a bit more casual". So statements like "I guess I won't see you in FFXIV, or "You should just stay on FFXI", makes no sense at all with the very little bit of information we have. Let more information come out before you make huge assumptions, like you already know how the game is going to be, because you don't know, and none of us knows.
#151 Jul 03 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
Enjoy your hardcore grind. I guess I won't be seeing you in FFXIV.


I'm not getting in this for the most part, but statements like that, make me laugh. Nobody knows how ffxiv will be it is all speculation, "a bit more casual" doesn't mean there will be no hardcore grinds in the game. All it means is there will be some casual content, exactly how much or how little is up in the air, no one but SE knows that. It in no way means everything thought of "casual" will be in the game, nor does it mean that anything thought as "hardcore" will be out of the game. I mean making the level grind easier makes the game "a bit more casual", and that is just one thing that automatically makes it "aimed a bit more casual". So statements like "I guess I won't see you in FFXIV, or "You should just stay on FFXI", makes no sense at all with the very little bit of information we have. Let more information come out before you make huge assumptions, like you already know how the game is going to be, because you don't know, and none of us knows.


I think that's wishful thinking on your part. The devs haven't said "a bit more casual". They've said "more casual". They've said that they want people who have only a limited amount of time to play to be able to experience the game, and something tells me they're not talking about making it so that you can spend 5 years trying to do one hour at a time what it takes everyone else 3-6 months to do. I'm not suggesting that FFXIV will be without hardcore elements. I'm suggesting that this entire argument around making everything involve a grind is not going to happen. You can quote me on release day or, if I'm wrong, you can wave it in my face. The "hardcore centric" epic time sink nature of FFXI will not make it into FFXIV.
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