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#152 Jul 03 2009 at 5:27 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
Enjoy your hardcore grind. I guess I won't be seeing you in FFXIV.


I'm not getting in this for the most part, but statements like that, make me laugh. Nobody knows how ffxiv will be it is all speculation, "a bit more casual" doesn't mean there will be no hardcore grinds in the game. All it means is there will be some casual content, exactly how much or how little is up in the air, no one but SE knows that. It in no way means everything thought of "casual" will be in the game, nor does it mean that anything thought as "hardcore" will be out of the game. I mean making the level grind easier makes the game "a bit more casual", and that is just one thing that automatically makes it "aimed a bit more casual". So statements like "I guess I won't see you in FFXIV, or "You should just stay on FFXI", makes no sense at all with the very little bit of information we have. Let more information come out before you make huge assumptions, like you already know how the game is going to be, because you don't know, and none of us knows.


I think that's wishful thinking on your part. The devs haven't said "a bit more casual". They've said "more casual". They've said that they want people who have only a limited amount of time to play to be able to experience the game, and something tells me they're not talking about making it so that you can spend 5 years trying to do one hour at a time what it takes everyone else 3-6 months to do. I'm not suggesting that FFXIV will be without hardcore elements. I'm suggesting that this entire argument around making everything involve a grind is not going to happen. You can quote me on release day or, if I'm wrong, you can wave it in my face. The "hardcore centric" epic time sink nature of FFXI will not make it into FFXIV.


The other side of this coin is if you make the game casual you need to have a huge marketing strategy and also tune the game towards casual and new players joining the game. If by definition the game will be casual then the probability of players leaving the game after a short while is huge. This can only be countered with tuning the content so that new players can join with ease and catch up with players that have played the game from day 1. A prime example of how you operate a game like that is WoW. Huge turnover of players (source if you don’t believe me check PC Game sales, WoW is always top 5 is sales in EU and USA), easy and fast content, catch up mechanism (game resets after each expansion). Another aspect that people here forget is that a game can be tuned towards casual in the beginning of its launch to hook up players and get a massive healthy player base, and when the first expansion is released it will get more and more tuned towards grind and time sink (aka hardcore) in order to keep those players playing. This might work and might not since the casual players might quit, but this is a gamble you need to take ;D

I personally think its 0% chance that SE goes with the tactic that WoW is using, by relying on getting massive new players every month to replace people that are leaving the game. Unless they make the game similar to WoW in order to appeal to huge amount of players that start to play the game even after 5 years of operation.

Also remember that when FFXI was released it managed to get 800k player and dipped down to 500k and have stayed at that level even after all these year.
Now, almost 8 years after the release of FFXI the MMO market has exploded, both in term of casual players and hardcore players. I would not be surprised if SE is going to target semi hardcore and upwards players, people that plays minimum 2 hours/day. Sure they have said you can play 40 min and progress but that doesn’t really mean anything really. So now that the MMO market is 10x bigger then it was 10 years ago I wouldn’t be surprised if SE can get 3-5 million semi hardcore to max hardcore players for FF14. We just have to wait and see ^^


Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 9:39pm by Maldavian
#153 Jul 03 2009 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think that's wishful thinking on your part. The devs haven't said "a bit more casual". They've said "more casual". They've said that they want people who have only a limited amount of time to play to be able to experience the game, and something tells me they're not talking about making it so that you can spend 5 years trying to do one hour at a time what it takes everyone else 3-6 months to do. I'm not suggesting that FFXIV will be without hardcore elements. I'm suggesting that this entire argument around making everything involve a grind is not going to happen. You can quote me on release day or, if I'm wrong, you can wave it in my face. The "hardcore centric" epic time sink nature of FFXI will not make it into FFXIV.


Quote:
“As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don’t want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game. ”


I took that right off one of the interviews, either way they said "aim a bit for the casual user", just wanted to point that out since you say they said totally more casual. So we are back to the point of to what extent do they want to go, like I said they could make level grind faster and easier to solo. This lets you log on for 40mins and enjoy and progress (sense solo is better it wont take 5 years longer), and that in itself makes it "a bit more casual". Timesinks are in the eye of the beholder, meaning what some people think of as timesinks, others might look at it as a challenge and enjoy it. For one example some people look at how dynamis is done as a timesink (meaning you have to clear the cities and then beaucedine to get to xarcabard), some say its a timesink because they just want to get their gear and not have to clear zones they don't care about. While others look at it as a challenge and say its way better then just being able to do whatever dynamis you want too before clearing the others. You might not have heard complaints but I have heard some "why should I have to clear this zone, my gear doesn't drop here this is a timesink".

Saying the game is built around timesinks because you don't have a free warp item is way over-the-top. Lets remember that the thread topic is a free warp at level 1 with small cooldown time. Like I said earlier I don't see anything a timesink, if there are ways in the game that it could cut down the same amount of time (warp scrolls lvl 1, warp cud, rings, blm, etc) with some effort/cost and planning.

You say that an item like a HS, would encourage exploring and that is 100% true, anything made easier would encourage people to do it. Only thing is I see a huge difference between mindlessly running around and exploring because you know you can always just warp home, and going out there with a plan and a strategy, and exploring to me the "right way". I use the "right way" because that is just my opinion, yes mindlessly exploring is a way of exploring, but I like exploring to be because you want to and require a strategy like remembering where u went and back tracking, rather then a free warp out everytime you get lost. Your way of exploring to me is too easy, you just mindlessly run and warp out until you find the right way or the way you want to go, kind of like a trial and error (I went this way the first time and it was a dead end so I warped out, lets try the other way now). Just my opinion that if you want to explore that way (mindlessly), you should have to pay something for it, not get rewarded (with a free warp everytime) for mindlessly exploring.
#154 Jul 03 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Quote:
“As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don’t want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game. ”


I took that right off one of the interviews, either way they said "aim a bit for the casual user", just wanted to point that out since you say they said totally more casual.


Where did I say "totally" in any of my posts? Don't do that. Don't paraphrase as a quote. It doesn't help. They also said "As with WoW". So which is it? Along the lines of what WoW has done, or just a bone thrown to the casual gamer? The trend is to suit the casual player with bones thrown to the hardcore, not the other way around. And it makes sense. You can develop 90% of your content to suit the casual player and put in epic grinds for the other 10% of the content, and everyone is happy. Why? Because all epic grinds are is repetition. It doesn't require a ton of content to drag it out. So even though the hardcore crowd can engage in that epic grind for 12 hours/day if they want to, they're just repeating the same old small segment of the game over and over again.

If, on the other hand, you put 90% of the content as epic grind with 10% as casual (or even 50/50), the hardcore are the only ones left with anything to do because casual content by its very nature tends to require more development time to keep people involved. Some people live for the grind. Everything that has happened in the MMO world has made it abundantly clear that if you want to go worldwide (and not just cater to the crazies in Korea and the extreme minority of MMO players throughout the rest of the world) you focus on casual with just enough of a hardcore element to give people something to grind on. SE likes the concept of super bosses in FFXI. They could easily implement another new superboss with every new FFXIV expansion and it would barely dent the overall development time. If you look at all of the other MMOs since FFXI and WoW that have fallen flat on their face, it had nothing to do with the casual nature of the games and everything to do with the content/mechanics. The fact that not everything was a grind only helped those games, not hurt them. If you were to take a game like WAR or AoC and build it around an epic grind requiring a group for everything, both games would already be merging servers.

Quote:
Saying the game is built around timesinks because you don't have a free warp item is way over-the-top. Lets remember that the thread topic is a free warp at level 1 with small cooldown time. Like I said earlier I don't see anything a timesink, if there are ways in the game that it could cut down the same amount of time (warp scrolls lvl 1, warp cud, rings, blm, etc) with some effort/cost and planning.


I didn't say the game is built around timesinks because you don't have a free warp item. I've said that other games have demonstrated that players are very happy with their free warp items, and at this stage in the evolution of the MMO genre, trying to go back in time and make everything come with a cost attached is very, very poor business.

Quote:
You say that an item like a HS, would encourage exploring and that is 100% true, anything made easier would encourage people to do it. Only thing is I see a huge difference between mindlessly running around and exploring because you know you can always just warp home, and going out there with a plan and a strategy, and exploring to me the "right way". I use the "right way" because that is just my opinion, yes mindlessly exploring is a way of exploring, but I like exploring to be because you want to and require a strategy like remembering where u went and back tracking, rather then a free warp out everytime you get lost. Your way of exploring to me is too easy, you just mindlessly run and warp out until you find the right way or the way you want to go, kind of like a trial and error (I went this way the first time and it was a dead end so I warped out, lets try the other way now). Just my opinion that if you want to explore that way (mindlessly), you should have to pay something for it, not get rewarded (with a free warp everytime) for mindlessly exploring.


Who said people use it to warp just because they get lost? How is exploring with a free hearth different from exploring with a warp scroll or cudgel in your bags? OOOHHH!! I KNOW!! If you've got a free item, you're much less likely to say, "Nah, I'd rather not go poke around...I don't feel like wasting the CP/charges."

That's the only difference.
#155 Jul 03 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
So now that the MMO market is 10x bigger then it was 10 years ago I wouldn’t be surprised if SE can get 3-5 million semi hardcore to max hardcore players for FF14. We just have to wait and see ^^


No MMORPG has broken 2 million players since WoW, even with the expanded appeal to casual players. If they haven't done it, I hardly think SE could get 3-5 million with a narrowed market. I think SE is entirely capable of 3-5 million or more...but not if they tune the game with continued emphasis on hardcore.
#156 Jul 03 2009 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Who said people use it to warp just because they get lost? How is exploring with a free hearth different from exploring with a warp scroll or cudgel in your bags? OOOHHH!! I KNOW!! If you've got a free item, you're much less likely to say, "Nah, I'd rather not go poke around...I don't feel like wasting the CP/charges."

That's the only difference.


Its a big difference because you are paying everytime for mindlessly exploring, instead of getting rewarded everytime you get lost (I see free stuff as getting rewarded). Mindlessly exploring is ok and it will be in every game but you should have to pay a price (even if its small like CP), for this method of exploring. Because some other mmos have it doesn't mean you have to also, thats the reason they are making their own game.

Quote:
Where did I say "totally" in any of my posts? Don't do that. Don't paraphrase as a quote. It doesn't help. They also said "As with WoW". So which is it? Along the lines of what WoW has done, or just a bone thrown to the casual gamer? The trend is to suit the casual player with bones thrown to the hardcore, not the other way around. And it makes sense. You can develop 90% of your content to suit the casual player and put in epic grinds for the other 10% of the content, and everyone is happy. Why? Because all epic grinds are is repetition. It doesn't require a ton of content to drag it out. So even though the hardcore crowd can engage in that epic grind for 12 hours/day if they want to, they're just repeating the same old small segment of the game over and over again.


You didn't say totally, but you implied that they didn't say "a bit more casual" and then said "more casual" as further impling all the way more casual. When you take out adjectives like "a bit" or imply that is wasn't said and then say "more casual" its comes off as all the way or totally casual (i'm sorry for adding the word totally without explaining it). I'm sorry but there is no trend, there is only 1 huge successful MMO and that is WoW, a trend is something copied off of something else (like coping off of WoW), and obtaining the same or close to the same success. Instead no other game has even came close to the success of WoW, so you could say its a failed trend with 1 lucky diamond in the batch (WOW). You might say AoC or War but both them games have not even passed ffxi in success or longevity yet (and I doubt they even be around really as long as ffxi has), and ffxi didn't take any casual approach until later on.

Success is linked to many things not just the casual and hardcore aspects. The appearance of the game ties into how successful it will be (cartoonish or realish or inbetween). The average age of each player also ties into the success of the game, (some might say WoW age demographic is way younger by average). Advertising and the developers tie into the success of a game and many other things (like is the game centered around PvP or PvE etc). Point being ffxi was a very hardcore oriented game and it still a top five best MMo based on success and longevity. So your formula of a successful game through casual and hardcore elements are really made up, because the only real success we have to go on is WoW. There is no way to know if WoW is a one hit wonder and luck, or is it the real and only formula to producing those type of numbers.







Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 10:47pm by HocusP
#157 Jul 03 2009 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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Not that I don't agree with second part or your overall sentiment, Aurelius.

But according to IGN and NCsoft's 2008 Q4 report Aion's chinese and korean subscribers are inching past the 3.5 million mark a little under one year into the game's lifecycle. While I don't imagine it's going to have much western appeal, given WoW's newly sheered thank-you-very-little-The-9 subscriber count, it's a serious contender.

And really, if Aion's a serious contender, I think FFXIV has more than a hope.




Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 11:02pm by Zemzelette
#158 Jul 03 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Its a big difference because you are paying everytime for mindlessly exploring, instead of getting rewarded everytime you get lost (I see free stuff as getting rewarded). Mindlessly exploring is ok and it will be in every game but you should have to pay a price (even if its small like CP), for this method of exploring. Because some other mmos have it doesn't mean you have to also, thats the reason they are making their own game.


Funny how advocates of grinds always say, "should". You 'should' have to pay for this, you 'should' have to grind that. And they only reason why a person apparently 'should'?

Ummm...

Is there are reason? Or is it just an obscure principle evolved to justify the time sinks found elsewhere?

Quote:
You didn't say totally, but you implied that they didn't say "a bit more casual" and then said "more casual" as further impling all the way more casual. When you take out adjectives like "a bit" or imply that is wasn't said and then say "more casual" its comes off as all the way or totally casual (i'm sorry for adding the word totally without explaining it). I'm sorry but there is no trend, there is only 1 huge successful MMO and that is WoW, a trend is something copied off of something else (like coping off of WoW), and obtaining the same or close to the same success. Instead no other game has even came close to the success of WoW, so you could say its a failed trend with 1 lucky diamond in the batch (WOW). You might say AoC or War but both them games have not even passed ffxi in success or longevity yet (and I doubt they even be around really as long as ffxi has), and ffxi didn't take any casual approach until later on.


No, a trend is a pattern, and the pattern with MMO developers is to focus the content on casual play with a component reserved for the hardcore. That's the trend. There's nothing to argue about it, because you'll be extremely hard pressed to find a global MMORPG that takes on the EQ/FFXI style grind .

Quote:
Success is linked to many things not just the casual and hardcore aspects. The appearance of the game ties into how successful it will be (cartoonish or realish or inbetween). The average age of each player also ties into the success of the game, (some might say WoW age demographic is way younger by average). Advertising and the developers tie into the success of a game and many other things (like is the game centered around PvP or PvE etc). Point being ffxi was a very hardcore oriented game and it still a top five best MMo based on success and longevity. So your formula of a successful game through casual and hardcore elements are really made up, because the only real success we have to go on is WoW. There is no way to know if WoW is a one hit wonder and luck, or is it the real and only formula to producing those type of numbers.


It's not made up. It's made up to you because if it's not made up, you're wrong. Let go, my son. Let go of your fear and anger. FFXI was a great game. There's no shame in moving on. You don't have to grind for everything just like you don't have to walk 10 miles to school in the snow (uphill both ways!) anymore. I wonder if the hardcore advocates realize just how much they sound like the stereotypical bitter old man recounting how all the "kids these days" are lazy so-and-so's because they have everything so easy.
#159 Jul 03 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Not that I don't agree with second part or your overall sentiment, Aurelius.

But according to IGN and NCsoft's 2008 Q4 report Aion's chinese and korean subscribers are inching past the 3.5 million mark a little under one year into the game's lifecycle. While I don't imagine it's going to have much western appeal, given WoW's newly sheered thank-you-very-little-The-9 subscriber count, it's a serious contender.

And really, if Aion's a serious contender, I think FFXIV has more than a hope.


I realized after I typed it that Aion might have broken the 2 million mark, and I couldn't remember if Lineage II came out before or after WoW. That's my oversight, no argument about that. I tend to overlook the Asian market, and Korea in particular because Korea has its own microcosm of MMO activity that is just...maybe a bit...obsessed? Ya. Not ideal o.O
#160 Jul 03 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Not that I don't agree with second part or your overall sentiment, Aurelius.

But according to IGN and NCsoft's 2008 Q4 report Aion's chinese and korean subscribers are inching past the 3.5 million mark a little under one year into the game's lifecycle. While I don't imagine it's going to have much western appeal, given WoW's newly sheered thank-you-very-little-The-9 subscriber count, it's a serious contender.

And really, if Aion's a serious contender, I think FFXIV has more than a hope.


Not to diminish the report as I wouldn't be surprised if it were completely true but I'd like to know how many of those korean and chinese subscribers were actually american and european players taking advantage of the free couple days of gameplay to test out the game and are now not going to bother with their own versions of the game because they didn't quite like what they saw. I would be one of them.
#161 Jul 03 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Korea always makes me feel better about my MMO addictions >_>;

It's counted off their Korean and Chinese servers, and nearing a year is past the honeymoon phase. The western Aion beta is taking place on two servers in the EU.

But the truth is any MMO's subscriber data from China and sometimes other parts of Asia will always be inflated. We have a monthly subscription culture over here in the west, but eastern countries prefer a more by-the-hour system. As a result, Western subscriber data is pretty reliable, whoever has an active account is an active subscriber. Eastern subscriber data is a bit harder to measure, as voluntary activity is sometimes sporadic activity and companies can justify a little play in determining who counts as an active account, which they are more than happy to take advantage of to spin the numbers in their favor.

(I was so surprised to see SE was experimenting with different methods of payment here in the west, how very unusual.)



Edited, Jul 4th 2009 12:15am by Zemzelette
#162 Jul 03 2009 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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A successful trend is one that copies off something that is already on the market, and obtain close to or the same success (or even larger success). Its not a "successful" trend unless this is achieved, learn to read on to where I say it can be classified as a "failed trend" (implying that it is a trend but not a great one), because even trying to use the trend no one has even came close to the success of WoW (close is probally not a big enough word, not even in the same league). So there is no formula yet because you cannot base a formula on an event that has happened once, and failed many times. It is made up because WoW is a diamond in the rough, and could be a one hit wonder, and ffxi is still more successful then a lot of the people that followed WoW's trend.


Quote:
I wonder if the hardcore advocates realize just how much they sound like the stereotypical bitter old man recounting how all the "kids these days" are lazy so-and-so's because they have everything so easy.


I wonder if the casual advocates realize how much they sound like a stereotypical spoiled child (or adult), wanting everything easy and never working for anything (even stuff as little as getting a cheap warp scroll before you go out). Equally as bad if you ask me, remember we are talking bout stuff as little as a warp scroll in here. Its too much to not "forget to get a warp scroll" and spend a little points, give me a break.


Edited, Jul 4th 2009 12:17am by HocusP
#163 Jul 03 2009 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
A successful trend is one that copies off something that is already on the market, and obtain close to or the same success (or even larger success). Its not a "successful" trend unless this is achieved, learn to read on to where I say it can be classified as a "failed trend" (implying that it is a trend but not a great one), because even trying to use the trend no one has even came close to the success of WoW (close is probally not a big enough word, not even in the same league). So there is no formula yet because you cannot base a formula on an event that has happened once, and failed many times. It is made up because WoW is a diamond in the rough, and could be a one hit wonder, and ffxi is still more successful then a lot of the people that followed WoW's trend.


If you look at why the other MMOs that have followed the casual trend since WoW have failed, it's not because they're casual, and that's the point within the scope of this discussion.
#164 Jul 03 2009 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you look at why the other MMOs that have followed the casual trend since WoW have failed, it's not because they're casual, and that's the point within the scope of this discussion.


Yeah you could pinpoint exactly what caused them to fail (or in a sense), but no other developers can pinpoint it and correct it. There still has never been a success anywhere close to WoW, so its pretty much a failed trend until this happens. Of course its not the only reason why they failed, but its still a failed trend until it happens.



Edited, Jul 4th 2009 12:29am by HocusP
#165 Jul 03 2009 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Quote:
If you look at why the other MMOs that have followed the casual trend since WoW have failed, it's not because they're casual, and that's the point within the scope of this discussion.


Yeah you could pinpoint exactly what caused them to fail (or in a sense), but no other developers can pinpoint it and correct it. There still has never been a success anywhere close to WoW, so its pretty much a failed trend until this happens.


WAR grossly underperformed because the graphics were weak and it has altogether too many technical issues. I tried downloading the WAR trial and the trial download was borked. My entire trial duration expired and they still hadn't fixed it. AoC underperformed because they ran out of money for development and had to push the game live before it was ready. The content beyond roughly level 20 (or lack thereof) destroyed the game (not to mention an apparently abysmal PvP system). In both cases, the bulk of the failure could be attributed to the inexperience of the developers, and LOTRO falls into that category as well. Blizzard got enough of the mechanics right on their first try, and they weren't afraid to change things as the game evolved. Compare Blizzard's dynamic approach in their first MMO to SE's...extremely delayed dynamic approach to their first MMO, and you begin to see the patterns emerge. Again, and to reinforce the point, none of those games suffered because they were casual. They suffered for other reasons.
#166 Jul 03 2009 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't want to see Hearths.

Why? Because I am DESPERATELY hoping that transportation is WAY better than it was in XI, so we don't need them.

I've played WoW for years. The only time I ever really used my Hearth was to get back to the main city fast, because I wasn't a mage and couldn't just port there. EVERYWHERE else was easily accessible.

Unlike FFXI, where you needed to run 14 hours to get to the main city, if your HP wasn't naturally there.

So, I hope for no Hearths. Or, rather, I don't want hearths to be a big aspect of transport. More like "Hey, guys, wanna give them this so that they can get back to more specific destinations fast every once in a while, just in case they had to run back to town for something? I mean, I know they don't need it. Just thought it might be a nice little bit to round out all our other transportation mechanisms."
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#167 Jul 04 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
HocusP wrote:
[quote]“As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don’t want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game. ”


I took that right off one of the interviews, either way they said "aim a bit for the casual user", just wanted to point that out since you say they said totally more casual.


We don’t know this actually, maybe SE have done a 90% hardcore 10% casual game here. So when the 10% leave it really doesn’t matter since that 90% will stay and play the game for 10 years+. Just like with FFXI. This time around they might think if we can get 5 million instead of 800K we got with FF11 and let’s say the same amount of % leaves that left FFXI (a note here, the dip to FFXI back in the days was mostly caused by WoW, and now WoW is not as shiny as it was back in the day when it was released) that would still leave FF14 with 3 million users.

Another factor is that FF14 will be released on PS3, a market of 25 million users that WoW doesn’t have access to. And yet again another factor is Japan itself. Japan probably hosts the biggest FF franchise fan base in the world (the FF franchise worldwide is huge as well) and I would not be surprised if a lot of those players start to pick up FF14.

Another point is that I hope that SE has learned marketing from WoW. I hope they will pump in a lot of cash before the launch of the game so every MMO player knows it’s going to be released. Aion have done a pretty good job so far, but still no way close to scope of WoW.

Again all this pretty much leads to that you can get a high player base based on semi hardcore and hardcore players. It's in no way _impossible_.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 8:52am by Maldavian
#168 Jul 04 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
WAR grossly underperformed because the graphics were weak and it has altogether too many technical issues.


I just want to add to this. Sure those are two problems (I didn't think the graphics were that bad but some thought the comic book look was bad) but the biggest problem was they promised things and didn't live up to the promises. The game was supposed to release with 6 main cities and 24 classes but the actual release was just 2 main cities and 20 classes. Their problem was they spent way too much time on some aspects of the game while neglecting others completely. They didn't have an operational AH at release, the crafting system sucks and to be honest their two "living cities" they spent to much time on weren't all that different from a city in any other MMO. The only difference is you can take over the opposing city (which hardly happens anyway) and certain aspects of your own city are only accessible after it has been in your possession for a certain amount of time. The only redeeming quality the game had was it's RvR which could have been fun but they had so many servers at release that you could never really get a good amount of people to fight against. Oh, and originally the game was supposed to be more skill oriented with gear being almost negligible but they later changed that so drastically that it's probably the game with the highest dependence on gear. WAR could have been great but the ball was dropped. I just hope its good and innovative features (public quests, tome of knowledge and capturable cities, keeps and towers) live on through other games.

Not really sure why this came up though...I thought the thread was about hearthstones.
#169 Jul 04 2009 at 1:50 AM Rating: Good
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the biggest problem was they promised things and didn't live up to the promises.


Ding ding ding. Here's why MMO's fail nowadays. I'm quite happy that SE isn't falling to that hole with XIV, it looks like they won't tell Anything before they're 100% sure it will be in the game, which is great (with the downside that yeah, we ain't gonna see much information before the release of the game unfortunately).
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#170 Jul 04 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
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You can make excuses (or even real reasons) why the other games failed, but bottom line is they followed the WoW trend and failed. Since no one has actually followed WoW's trend and succeeded, it is a failed trend no matter which way you spin it. A failed trend can easily be turned into an successful trend (if someone actually uses it and gets close to or the same results), but until then it remains a failed trend. As Maldavian stated, there is no formula except the made up one you said, because it have never been duplicated. You can't make a formula of something that has only happened once, and may not ever happen again (with all the mmos coming out, subscriptions may be scattered). Formulas are proven methods, and something is not proven without it being duplicated a few times (or at least once). All we know is it has tried to be duplicated and failed many times.

Success is more then the amount of subscribers, it also is on the longevity and can you keep a reason amount of them long term. So you could say that to date the EQ/FFXI grind "trend" is more successful then the WoW trend (to date) because of the longevity. WoW was a diamond in the rough and is the most successful MMO, but as far as the "trend" goes it has failed so far, however the EQ/ffxi grind "trend" is still going on with ffxi 7-8 years, and EQ 10+ years. Grind trend has been duplicated with success and longevity and the WoW trend has not (to date) been duplicated with any success. Basically what i'm getting at is to say that your formula is the real one that works is not true when other formulas have had success, and your formula has only worked once (a huge once with WoW but still once).

There are many factors that tie into success of an MMO, and I will just name a few here (none of these have anything to do with casual or hardcore). The people that are developing the game, as in are they a trusted developer or a new developer. The name and brand of the game, as in is it a huge title like Star Wars Of The Lost Republic, DragonBallz Online, or is it a new brand. This matters a lot because there are already millions of star wars and dragon ball z fans, so these games start off with a huge lore even before it is even out. What platiforms is the game be developed for, all this ties into the success of the game even more then casual and hardcore aspects. So to say a game has to start off with WoW's trend to be successful (which has not even been done yet), is not true when so many other factors tie into a games success and longevity.
#171 Jul 04 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
You can make excuses (or even real reasons) why the other games failed, but bottom line is they followed the WoW trend and failed. Since no one has actually followed WoW's trend and succeeded, it is a failed trend no matter which way you spin it.


Well, Blizzard has over 11 million reasons why they might disagree with you. It's not enough to compare a game like WoW to a game like WAR based on one component and say, "Ya, obviously it's a failed trend overall." The reasons why MMOs have fallen short of player expectations since WoW can be summed up very easily. It always goes back to content or technical issues. There's a reason why MMO developers are creating games that cater more to the casual than to the hardcore: the genre has evolved. Games designed from the ground up around protracted grinds no longer fit with the genre on the global market.

No company in their right mind is going to invest millions of dollars into developing a title without doing their market research first, and the market research shows what only the hardcore element deny: that the overwhelming majority of MMO gamers prefer games that aren't built around hardcore grinding. You can have hardcore in a game and do well. You just can't have the hardcore as focus. You can have large time sinks in a game and do well; you just can't build large time sinks around virtually every facet of the game. You can have extremely challenging content and be successful; you just can't build the entire game around it.
#172 Jul 04 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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What marketing research are you going by, WoW is a one and lifetime thing. Until it is duplicated with the success then WoW, is a diamond in the rough and it may always stay like that. You can do marketing research and see that making a hardcore oriented game is a good way of having a long successful game as well. The point is that games following WoW trend has not even came close to the subscribers, not to mention maintaining them and keeping them for years.

A new company I could see more then likely following a WoW trend in hopes of striking gold like WoW has done, but a company like SE knows that WoW is more then likely a one time event. Even SE has said this in an interview "striving for WoW numbers is unreasonable", so they are not naive to think that the WoW trend is the only way to become successful and long term (no one but WoW has even been successful going by the WoW trend, not even to mention longevity). You can have hardcore as the focus and do extremely well (it has been proven many times), but you also can have casual as the focus and do extremely well (it hasn't been proven but it has been done at least once with WoW being huge). It goes back down to how you want to make your own game, there is no formula for success (at least between casual and hardcore aspects), either way it could work. You have one game (WoW) to base a whole formula around, and I have many failed games that have tried (WoW's trend), and many successful games that followed a grind/hardcore trend (more then one game).



Edited, Jul 4th 2009 2:42pm by HocusP
#173 Jul 04 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
HocusP wrote:
You can make excuses (or even real reasons) why the other games failed, but bottom line is they followed the WoW trend and failed. Since no one has actually followed WoW's trend and succeeded, it is a failed trend no matter which way you spin it.


Well, Blizzard has over 11 million reasons why they might disagree with you. It's not enough to compare a game like WoW to a game like WAR based on one component and say, "Ya, obviously it's a failed trend overall." The reasons why MMOs have fallen short of player expectations since WoW can be summed up very easily. It always goes back to content or technical issues. There's a reason why MMO developers are creating games that cater more to the casual than to the hardcore: the genre has evolved. Games designed from the ground up around protracted grinds no longer fit with the genre on the global market.


You’re quit wrong here. As far as I know there have not been a AAA super quality MMO out since WoW came out so your argument "There's a reason why MMO developers are creating games that cater more to the casual than to the hardcore: the genre has evolved." fails extremely hard.
Also Blizzard has 5 millions of those in china which SE is not interested of.
Cut down that figure to 6 million and then we can start to talk. Also yet again I need to remind you for the 10th time WoW is not the biggest MMO out there. There are other MMO that have more subscribers then WoW and yet you spam constantly that WoW is the biggest MMO, ITS NOT.

Quote:
No company in their right mind is going to invest millions of dollars into developing a title without doing their market research first, and the market research shows what only the hardcore element deny: that the overwhelming majority of MMO gamers prefer games that aren't built around hardcore grinding. You can have hardcore in a game and do well. You just can't have the hardcore as focus. You can have large time sinks in a game and do well; you just can't build large time sinks around virtually every facet of the game. You can have extremely challenging content and be successful; you just can't build the entire game around it.


I don’t dispute that the majority of player are casual, but that doesn’t mean that you can target the semi hardcore and upwards players. If you have 100 million player in the world that plays MMO and 75% of them are casual you still have 25% = 25 million players being semi hardcore to extreme hardcore players.
If I can make a game to appeal to those 25 million then why not, especially if I know those players will stay and play my game for 10 year+. You don’t know jack about what kind of market research SE have done.

They might have done a clever calculation on getting players to start up as casual and then slowly turn in them into hardcore/semi hardcore players. We don’t know anything at this point and we won’t even know what will happen in the future after the game is released. Will they go for hardcore mode when the game starts to put a few years on it back? Will they make it more casual? Will they make it FTP? We don’t know anything of what SE is planning really.
#174 Jul 04 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
What marketing research are you going by, WoW is a one and lifetime thing. Until it is duplicated with the success then WoW, is a diamond in the rough and it may always stay like that. You can do marketing research and see that making a hardcore oriented game is a good way of having a long successful game as well. The point is that games following WoW trend has not even came close to the subscribers, not to mention maintaining them and keeping them for years.


You're avoiding the issue. The issue...one last time...is that those games that have been released since WoW and underperformed did not suffer because they were aimed at a more casual market than previous generations of MMOs. They failed because they missed out on certain key components that would have undermined the success of those games whether they were aimed at the casual or the hardcore market.

Think components, not full packages. Break down the different components, understand them, and then reassemble them into the full package. Then you understand. Superficial assessments are superficial, and that's what your argument relies on: superficial assessments. Poor content will break a game no matter which demographic you aim for. Technical issues running rampant will break a game no matter which demographic you aim for.

The reality, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, is that the majority of MMORPG gamers do not like games build around extended grinds at every turn. There is no basis to assume that SE is going to voluntarily restrict their target market by making another MMO suited primarily to the hardcore player...the press releases have stated quite the opposite. If you're so inclined, you can cling to the hope...the exceptionally faint hope...that the content tuned for casual players in FFXIV will represent the minority of the content...and I'm about 99.99% certain that if your enjoyment of the game is going to be based around the realization of that hope, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Quality, variety, versatility, freedom, and the bare minimum of restrictions on playability are what define successful MMOs these days, and if you're missing any of those components, your game will suffer.
#175 Jul 04 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
HocusP wrote:
What marketing research are you going by, WoW is a one and lifetime thing. Until it is duplicated with the success then WoW, is a diamond in the rough and it may always stay like that. You can do marketing research and see that making a hardcore oriented game is a good way of having a long successful game as well. The point is that games following WoW trend has not even came close to the subscribers, not to mention maintaining them and keeping them for years.


You're avoiding the issue. The issue...one last time...is that those games that have been released since WoW and underperformed did not suffer because they were aimed at a more casual market than previous generations of MMOs. They failed because they missed out on certain key components that would have undermined the success of those games whether they were aimed at the casual or the hardcore market.

Think components, not full packages. Break down the different components, understand them, and then reassemble them into the full package. Then you understand. Superficial assessments are superficial, and that's what your argument relies on: superficial assessments. Poor content will break a game no matter which demographic you aim for. Technical issues running rampant will break a game no matter which demographic you aim for.

The reality, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, is that the majority of MMORPG gamers do not like games build around extended grinds at every turn. There is no basis to assume that SE is going to voluntarily restrict their target market by making another MMO suited primarily to the hardcore player...the press releases have stated quite the opposite. If you're so inclined, you can cling to the hope...the exceptionally faint hope...that the content tuned for casual players in FFXIV will represent the minority of the content...and I'm about 99.99% certain that if your enjoyment of the game is going to be based around the realization of that hope, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Quality, variety, versatility, freedom, and the bare minimum of restrictions on playability are what define successful MMOs these days, and if you're missing any of those components, your game will suffer.


The bottom-line line here is, as stated in 2 million other posts, your _personal_ idea of casual might not be the same as what SE has in mind. And thus it might be you that will be in for a huge surprise and disappointment.
#176 Jul 04 2009 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
You’re quit wrong here. As far as I know there have not been a AAA super quality MMO out since WoW came out so your argument "There's a reason why MMO developers are creating games that cater more to the casual than to the hardcore: the genre has evolved." fails extremely hard.


You need to provide a better argument than that.

Quote:
Also Blizzard has 5 millions of those in china which SE is not interested of.


So? Take those out of the equation and you're still left with an MMO that has more than 10 times the active subscriptions of FFXI and more than 20 times the active subscriptions of EQ.

Quote:
Cut down that figure to 6 million and then we can start to talk. Also yet again I need to remind you for the 10th time WoW is not the biggest MMO out there. There are other MMO that have more subscribers then WoW and yet you spam constantly that WoW is the biggest MMO, ITS NOT.


MMORPG, and it is the largest. Very much so. Second Life has millions, but it's an entirely different genre. Forgive the shorthand...when I reference "MMO", I'm abbreviating "MMORPG". I assume that you can manage the distinction.

Quote:
I don’t dispute that the majority of player are casual, but that doesn’t mean that you can target the semi hardcore and upwards players. If you have 100 million player in the world that plays MMO and 75% of them are casual you still have 25% = 25 million players being semi hardcore to extreme hardcore players.
If I can make a game to appeal to those 25 million then why not, especially if I know those players will stay and play my game for 10 year+. You don’t know jack about what kind of market research SE have done.


And you still refuse to answer why a developer would go out of their way to narrow their potential market by tuning a game around a limited segment of players. Your strawman argument is getting real old. Release day for FFXIV will tell the tail. How do you like your crow?

Quote:
They might have done a clever calculation on getting players to start up as casual and then slowly turn in them into hardcore/semi hardcore players. We don’t know anything at this point and we won’t even know what will happen in the future after the game is released. Will they go for hardcore mode when the game starts to put a few years on it back? Will they make it more casual? Will they make it FTP? We don’t know anything of what SE is planning really.


We know what the devs have told us, which at no time, ever, has hinted that they feel the hardcore wait -> grind -> wait -> grind was successful and something they want to duplicate. If you take every single comment SE has made to date about FFXIV and made a little chart with "Casual" in one column and "Hardcore" in the other, there would be a number of explicit statements that would support a casual game, and no explicit statements that would support hardcore.

So between the genre trends and SE's own press releases, I'm still left with feeling that people arguing that "zomfg maybe by casual they only mean a little casual and maybe by 'do what you want' they mean only a little bit or some of the time and maybe by 'As with WoW' they mean nothing at all" are again...just clinging to a faint (and false) hope.

Which means that perpetual self warp items on cooldowns are entirely viable. So there. :P
#177 Jul 04 2009 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
The bottom-line line here is, as stated in 2 million other posts, your _personal_ idea of casual might not be the same as what SE has in mind. And thus it might be you that will be in for a huge surprise and disappointment.


You're absolutely right. It's entirely possible that SE's idea of casual will be different from mine. It's a safe bet, however, that SE's idea of casual is still not going to be hardcore.
#178 Jul 04 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:

I don’t dispute that the majority of player are casual, but that doesn’t mean that you can target the semi hardcore and upwards players. If you have 100 million player in the world that plays MMO and 75% of them are casual you still have 25% = 25 million players being semi hardcore to extreme hardcore players.

If I can make a game to appeal to those 25 million then why not, especially if I know those players will stay and play my game for 10 year+. You don’t know jack about what kind of market research SE have done.


IF your assumptions of 100 million MMO players and 25% of those being "hardcore" masochists players were correct, you'd have a reasonable basis to start building your argument. The problem is, those assumptions aren't true.

In one of your earlier posts from this morning, you suggested that XIV could range from 3 to 5 million players. Depending on the final product, I might tend to agree, but note: this is 6-to-10 times the player base of XI. I'm somewhat at a loss to figure out how you think S-E could could release a title with similar gameplay and grab 10-fold more players from the market than they previously held? What's doing it? The graphics? You mentioned the PS3, but I would guess that the number of households that have a PS3 but no PC is extraordinarily low.
#179 Jul 04 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
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SEforPrez wrote:
Maldavian wrote:

I don’t dispute that the majority of player are casual, but that doesn’t mean that you can target the semi hardcore and upwards players. If you have 100 million player in the world that plays MMO and 75% of them are casual you still have 25% = 25 million players being semi hardcore to extreme hardcore players.

If I can make a game to appeal to those 25 million then why not, especially if I know those players will stay and play my game for 10 year+. You don’t know jack about what kind of market research SE have done.


IF your assumptions of 100 million MMO players and 25% of those being "hardcore" masochists players were correct, you'd have a reasonable basis to start building your argument. The problem is, those assumptions aren't true.

In one of your earlier posts from this morning, you suggested that XIV could range from 3 to 5 million players. Depending on the final product, I might tend to agree, but note: this is 6-to-10 times the player base of XI. I'm somewhat at a loss to figure out how you think S-E could could release a title with similar gameplay and grab 10-fold more players from the market than they previously held? What's doing it? The graphics? You mentioned the PS3, but I would guess that the number of households that have a PS3 but no PC is extraordinarily low.


Who said it will be similar game play to FFXI?
And yes there are 100 million people playing MMO:s.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 3:29pm by Maldavian
#180 Jul 04 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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You are missing the point, it doesn't matter why they have failed, its bottom line they have failed. So many have failed and not 1 has succeeded is the point, it doesn't matter exactly why because that can be debated and up to a mixture of things. Its either you succeeded with the trend, or you failed, the reasons or excuses doesn't make that much of an issue. Technical issues, every game has those and can be fixed (some games bigger then others), same as content the point of an MMO is to develop as you go, so content is always being added (some at a faster pace then others).

They didn't release much information at all, so you wouldn't have much on the board for either side (hardcore or casual). I would say you could put "aimed a bit for casual" on the hardcore board because everyone uses "a bit" as an adjective to describe a small amount. A bit is usually accompanied by words like "a little bit" or "a small bit", hardly do you hear "I have a huge bit of something". A bit to me means a small particle, or an small amount. You have no idea how the game is going to end up just like no one else has, so to use your backwards logic of "of course" its goin to turn out this way really makes no sense (at least thats how you are coming off).

Marketing research does not really benefit you more then it benefits us. You see, when people see so many others fail while trying to use the same trend, it can discourage more from trying that same trend. Then you throw on top of that the success they already have had, and see with EQ, and they make their own conclusion. Like I said SE already said in an interview that striving for WoW numbers is unreasonable, and they are making their own game. You will have to wait and see how it turns out like the rest of us, but to turn your own speculation into your own reality, doesn't mean it has to be our reality. Its not (yes its not, same as vice versa) more likely to be overly casual then overly hardcore, you just have to wait and see.

Then on top of all that, casual means different things to different people. So you now don't know how much casual it will be or what their idea of casual even is in the first place. To think that all of this stems from a free warp item at lvl 1 with a small cooldown time is funny. To say this makes the game hardcore because it requires a small amount of effort to warp is also funny.

To SEforPrez

The amount of people with a ps3, but not a PC capable of playing this title is more important. You can have a Ps3 and a Pc, but is your PC capable of playing this new title at a good pace. This number might be much larger then you think, its not about just having any ole Pc, its about having a capable pc to play comfortable with this hi tech game coming out. This is why I never play any pc games, consoles are easier to keep up with, you never have to upgrade them, Pcs are constantly having to be upgraded everytime a new hi tech game comes out. I have ps3 and xbox360 and probally will be getting it on both assuming xbox360 gets it (like it will), but pc is not even an option.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 3:39pm by HocusP

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 3:43pm by HocusP
#181 Jul 04 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:

Who said it will be similar game play to FFXI?


Oh come on. Similar game play style - ultra hardcore vs more casual. Isn't that what the past 25 posts have been about?


Maldavian wrote:
And yes there are 100 million people playing MMO:s.


You have to stay consistent in your demographics if you're trying to compare similar things. Subscription-based MMORPG accounts are nowhere near 100 million. When the kids playing Maple Story and Free Realms get old enough to start buying monthly subscriptions to anything other than Highlights, then we'll talk.


#182 Jul 04 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:

The amount of people with a ps3, but not a PC capable of playing this title is more important. You can have a Ps3 and a Pc, but is your PC capable of playing this new title at a good pace. This number might be much larger then you think, its not about just having any ole Pc, its about having a capable pc to play comfortable with this hi tech game coming out. This is why I never play any pc games, consoles are easier to keep up with, you never have to upgrade them, Pcs are constantly having to be upgraded everytime a new hi tech game comes out. I have ps3 and xbox360 and probally will be getting it on both assuming xbox360 gets it (like it will), but pc is not even an option.


Hmmm, interesting point. Could be, I don't know.
#183 Jul 04 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
You are missing the point, it doesn't matter why they have failed, its bottom line they have failed.


It absolutely does matter why they have failed.

Quote:
So many have failed and not 1 has succeeded is the point, it doesn't matter exactly why because that can be debated and up to a mixture of things.


The one thing that can't be debated is that they didn't fail because they aimed for a more casual playstyle. If you look at all the complaints from players around those games, none of them will say they resented not having to wait for a party to do everything, or they resented not having to grind for everything. They'll sight combat mechanics, or technical issues, or theme, or quality of content. They won't tell you they didn't like the games because they weren't hardcore enough.

Quote:
Technical issues, every game has those and can be fixed (some games bigger then others), same as content the point of an MMO is to develop as you go, so content is always being added (some at a faster pace then others).


Absolutely...and it's a question of how long it takes for those issues to be fixed that will make or break the game. You can't expect people to keep paying a monthly fee to play a broken game, so when server crashes/excessive latency are common, or promised content remains absent for an extended period of time, people get impatient and focus their attention elsewhere.

Quote:
They didn't release much information at all, so you wouldn't have much on the board for either side (hardcore or casual).


The point is that there would be nothing on the hardcore side, and several things on the casual side.

Quote:
I would say you could put "aimed a bit for casual" on the hardcore board because everyone uses "a bit" as an adjective to describe a small amount.


No, because the qualifier is that it has to be an explicit statement, and that statement explicitly references casual play.

Quote:
A bit is usually accompanied by words like "a little bit" or "a small bit", hardly do you hear "I have a huge bit of something". A bit to me means a small particle, or an small amount. You have no idea how the game is going to end up just like no one else has, so to use your backwards logic of "of course" its goin to turn out this way really makes no sense (at least thats how you are coming off).


100% of a small amount is still bigger than 100% of nothing. There has been nothing from the devs explicitly referencing the retention of hardcore content as mainstay in FFXIV.

Quote:
Marketing research does not really benefit you more then it benefits us. You see, when people see so many others fail while trying to use the same trend, it can discourage more from trying that same trend.


No, because MMO developers look at components of other games, not just the overall package. You can develop the coolest most engaging game that caters to every single MMO gamer in the world through diversity and if your servers are down 50% of the time and the latency when they're up renders the game unplayable, you've only got so much time to fix it before everyone will move on (at least until the issues are corrected).

Quote:
Then you throw on top of that the success they already have had, and see with EQ, and they make their own conclusion.


EQ is down to ~120k active subscriptions. In terms of longevity, EQ has done well. In terms of demonstrating a successful design philosophy for the current genre, EQ doesn't even qualify as a contender.

Quote:
Like I said SE already said in an interview that striving for WoW numbers is unreasonable, and they are making their own game. You will have to wait and see how it turns out like the rest of us, but to turn your own speculation into your own reality, doesn't mean it has to be our reality. Its not (yes its not, same as vice versa) more likely to be overly casual then overly hardcore, you just have to wait and see.


Absolutely. Nobody can be 100% sure until release day (and even then they won't know for sure until they've started to progress through the game). Based on the information we've been given so far, however, all signs point very strongly to a game aimed primarily towards the casual market. You can't create a successful argument to the contrary.
#184 Jul 04 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP, you are trying to extend your reasoning too far (and also putting words into people's mouths). The only way a "wow clone" can fail in the way you suggest is if it copies too much from wow thereby begging the question: Why play a clone when you can play the real thing? That would be trying to steal a consumer base by making a cheap imitation when they are perfectly happy playing what they are already playing. Using aspects of wow will not break a game unless you take them all...which nobody in this forum has ever suggested, not even close.

Many people play wow simply because they don't like the grind, tedium and/or counter intuitive gameplay/UI that you have to go through in other MMOs. If you take the depth that a FF inherently has and combine it some of the ease of use of WoW and you'd have a good game.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 1:19pm by Yogtheterrible
#185 Jul 04 2009 at 12:32 PM Rating: Default
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I dont even know what yog is talking about, we are not talking about an exact WoW clone, we are talking about the "trend" of casual vs the "trend" of hardcore. You can follow WoW's trend of casual and have a game that plays and looks nothing like WoW. Please quote stuff when you are talking, i'm not putting words in peoples mouth, and I usually use parenthesis to explain what I am trying to say at different points. So your arguement has nothing to do with where this thread has gone, we are not talking about coping a game. You might need to go back and review what the meaning of a trend is, it in no way is an exact clone of anything.

Now, Yes the reason for them failing might not have anything to do with casual or hardcore, but this just goes back to my point. If you get a lot of other things right you can be successful going either route (hardcore or casual), further saying that there is not just one formula.

EQ is also going on there 16th expansion, so in terms of longevity (which is really important in terms of success), it has done great. Lets see where these games that tried the WoW trend is at after 10 years + of lifespan. We know where ffxi is at after 7-8 years of lifespan, and that is very successful.

You have little to no information on how the game is going to turn out, I would rather have them say nothing at all towards hardcore then "a bit hardcore". That would imply to me that its way casual and just a bit hardcore, but saying nothing (to date), leaves every possibility out there. We (or I), have already made an arguement contrary to yours, you have nothing to go on as far as casual vs hardcore aspects, except "aimed a bit casual", which is pretty much nothing (and can be interpreted in many ways). They said less of a grind, which we both agree that just making the "growth" system faster and easier (or soloable), would instantly make it "aimed a bit for casual". Other then that you have nothing to go on, let more information come out before you make your speculations a reality (or at least the beta come out).

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 4:34pm by HocusP
#186 Jul 04 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
We know where ffxi is at after 7-8 years of lifespan, and that is very successful.


Ya, a stagnant population (in terms of growth/shrinkage) that have things like this to say about the content: Here.

Too much grinding, too much time sink travel, and despite all the "WE WANT A CHALLENGE!!", too much job discrimination because working a strategy that would include any job is too unreliable, too hard, too risky. Doesn't sound to me like the people in that thread are gung-ho on the time sinks, nor does it sound to me like the community as a whole is bawls-out "let's make a winning strategy and get everyone involved in the challenge!!" Sounds more to me like, "FFS I'm tired of this time sink...just form the optimal party and get this **** over with."

Quote:
you have nothing to go on as far as casual vs hardcore aspects, except "aimed a bit casual",


And

"the player will be able to grow and develop in a more natural way that doesn't put a lot of weight on to the player himself."

and

"With FFXIV we would like to make it something that if you want to play in a party, you can play in a party, if you want to play solo, you can play solo, if you want to play 40 minutes a day, you can play 40 minutes a day and if you want to play all day, you can play all day. We'll have content for all of those different kinds of play styles and we'll have a game system that will be there for many different types of people."

and

"The new MMO will focus on the variety and accessibility of methods to grow one's character."

and

"Everyone will be able to freely choose how and when they want to play, regardless of style or schedule."

amd

"Career loners will be happy to know solo play is getting a lot more attention this time around."

and

"In the end, Final Fantasy XIV is all about taking the latest hardware and cutting-edge technology and developing a unique experience that really delivers for all types of players."

and

"Final Fantasy XIV is designed to be much lighter on one's schedule and contain a wider variety of content so players can find the best way to enjoy the game for themselves. Final Fantasy XIV definitely will not be as rough on the player, and it is speculated that this will cause as eventual shift of users to the game."

and

"Komoto hopes to continue to develop a place where users can meet each other, make lasting friendships, maintain sporting rivalries, and most importantly, enjoy the experience in any manner they wish. Final Fantasy XIV will be an MMO that provides such freedom, and introduce a new land in which players can accompany their friends and challenge their rivals."


In the context of this discussion, pay special note to the "play 40 minutes/day" bit. That in of itself screams "free homepoint return item on a cooldown." Screams it. Megaphone style. If you've got 40 minutes/day to play and everything (currency wise) has to go to pay for your trip home, either you're broke all the time or you're stuck playing within 5 minutes travel of a population hub.
#187 Jul 04 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Default
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You can find a forum of any game, that have players complaining about the game, that proves nothing. I know tons of people that complain about WoW, it is still the most successful MMO by far. Sorry, but I dont see anything this proves, but players complaining, that happens in every single game, you will never stop players from complaining.

I will sum up all the bold phrases in this part, none of it has any more advantage to "casual", then it does to "hardcore". Stuff like "doesn't put as much weight on players", doesn't mean on every aspect of the game. That could refer to the growth system, we all don't know. Stuff like "many types of players" is just that, many types of players, this doesn't say more casual then hardcore or vice versa, so I don't see how this helps your case. Stuff like "solo play gets more attention", once again I dont see how it helps your overall case, hardcore players can play solo. This doesn't mean its more casual then hardcore, it means you can do more stuff on your own. Accessibility meant just what it said in that sentence, other ways to grow your character, this again doesn't help your overall case. Enjoy their "Experience in anyway they wish", again has no help to your overall case, this doesn't mean more casual then hardcore. So if they wish to play hardcore they can enjoy their experence, same as casual I don't see anything here. Everything you pretty much quoted tells you nothing really how the game will be, and could be both ways.

LoL if you think playing 40mins/day, means a free warp home, then its funny and I don't see it. It doesn't say anything about getting back home with no effort. If it said play 40mins a day with no effort and get back free, then I would see it. A warp scroll in ffxiv could allow you to play 40mins a day, and enjoy it also, just with a ant's worth of effort.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 5:40pm by HocusP
#188 Jul 04 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Ya, a stagnant population (in terms of growth/shrinkage) that have things like this to say about the content: Here.

Too much grinding, too much time sink travel, and despite all the "WE WANT A CHALLENGE!!", too much job discrimination because working a strategy that would include any job is too unreliable, too hard, too risky. Doesn't sound to me like the people in that thread are gung-ho on the time sinks, nor does it sound to me like the community as a whole is bawls-out "let's make a winning strategy and get everyone involved in the challenge!!" Sounds more to me like, "FFS I'm tired of this time sink...just form the optimal party and get this sh*t over with."


While I agree with you about the casual vs hardcore, basing the game's success on the players complaints about it is simply foolish. If they thought everything in the game sucks, why would they play it? Everyone has things they don't like in all games (especially MMO's), but that doesn't mean that the game sucks. It's the human nature to never be satisfied.

Only proof we have about FFXI's (lack of?!) success is the stagnant population. It isn't growing (surprise surprise, 7 year old game!), but it isn't decreasing either. The fact that SE can keep all those players playing does tell something. ACP wasn't a success =/= FFXI wasn't a success.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#189 Jul 04 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
You can find a forum of any game, that have players complaining about the game, that proves nothing. I know tons of people that complain about WoW, it is still the most successful MMO by far. Sorry, but I dont see anything this proves, but players complaining, that happens in every single game, you will never stop players from complaining.


You rarely see such a one-sided thread. There will always be people who complain; in a game where the content is appeasing the majority of players, you will also see people voicing their approval.

Quote:
I will sum up all the bold phrases in this part, none of it has any more advantage to "casual", then it does to "hardcore". Stuff like "doesn't put as much weight on players", doesn't mean on every aspect of the game. That could refer to the growth system, we all don't know. Stuff like "many types of players" is just that, many types of players, this doesn't say more casual then hardcore or vice versa, so I don't see how this helps your case.


Because if you set a goal to include casual players, you can't tune everything around the hardcore mentality, and that's the entire point. People are arguing against the idea of a free warp item on the grounds that you shouldn't ever get anything for free, or that it makes things too easy, or that people 'shouldn't' be able to go off and do what they want without some sort of cost attached. That's directly contrary to a casual attitude, and if you're building a game to include everyone, you can't alienate the casual players for the sake of the hardcore.

Quote:
Stuff like "solo play gets more attention", once again I dont see how it helps your overall case, hardcore players can play solo. This doesn't mean its more casual then hardcore, it means you can do more stuff on your own.


It absolutely does mean more casual, because you're not volunteering to wait hours for a group in order to play.

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Accessibility meant just what it said in that sentence, other ways to grow your character, this again doesn't help your overall case.


It absolutely does, because hardcore content restricts accessibility, casual content preserves accessibility.

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Enjoy their "Experience in anyway they wish", again has no help to your overall case, this doesn't mean more casual then hardcore.


Again, it absolutely does help my case. Virtually everything SE has released up to this point can be interpreted as an attempt to put the casual player at ease that they'll find a place that they can enjoy in FFXIV. Not the scraps from the hardcore table, not a minority place in a hardcore game, but equal footing. And that, in of itself, is more than enough justification to suggest that SE would include things like free warp items on cooldowns, because it's those little additions that help make the game appealing to casual players. It's a basic function in any MMO: the option to return to a safe place quickly. Implementing that option around a hardcore mentality of "nothing for nothing" would be marketing suicide. If SE makes the unbelievably boneheaded mistake of releasing information intended to garner the support of casual players and then turn around and ram another time sink hardcore grind up their collective asses, they're going to be in serious, serious trouble as a credible game developer.

Quote:
So if they wish to play hardcore they can enjoy their experence, same as casual I don't see anything here. Everything you pretty much quoted tells you nothing really how the game will be, and could be both ways.


No, and the way you've tried to argue it tells me you know next to nothing about MMORPG mechanics. You can't have "casual as long as you're willing to grind for everything" or "casual as long as it's hardcore at the same time." Casual is casual, and when you start adding restrictions and conditions and roadblocks, you can only take those restrictions so far before it's no longer casual. Then you end up with the lion's share of your initial population up in arms screaming, "WTF!?! This isn't at all like how you said it was going to be!" And then you end up with another AoC/WAR/LOTRO; a game with potential that flopped because a developer didn't know wtf they were doing.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 3:19pm by AureliusSir
#190 Jul 04 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Ya, a stagnant population (in terms of growth/shrinkage) that have things like this to say about the content: Here.

Too much grinding, too much time sink travel, and despite all the "WE WANT A CHALLENGE!!", too much job discrimination because working a strategy that would include any job is too unreliable, too hard, too risky. Doesn't sound to me like the people in that thread are gung-ho on the time sinks, nor does it sound to me like the community as a whole is bawls-out "let's make a winning strategy and get everyone involved in the challenge!!" Sounds more to me like, "FFS I'm tired of this time sink...just form the optimal party and get this sh*t over with."


While I agree with you about the casual vs hardcore, basing the game's success on the players complaints about it is simply foolish. If they thought everything in the game sucks, why would they play it? Everyone has things they don't like in all games (especially MMO's), but that doesn't mean that the game sucks. It's the human nature to never be satisfied.

Only proof we have about FFXI's (lack of?!) success is the stagnant population. It isn't growing (surprise surprise, 7 year old game!), but it isn't decreasing either. The fact that SE can keep all those players playing does tell something. ACP wasn't a success =/= FFXI wasn't a success.


Ya, I clarified in my post after that one. It's not that there were complaints, it's that there were only complaints in a thread create to discuss whether the content was a success or a failure.
#191 Jul 04 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Default
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Of course if you look at all that from your own point of view you will come out with the same conclusion everytime. Instead their are different point of views for everything they have released sofar, and they could fit hardcore players as well. The comment about group play, we have already went over that a while ago, I already said that them making it less grind and soloable makes it more casual. That has nothing to do with a free warp item with low cooldown, or about other aspects being hardcore or casual. You could assume all you want, that they mean adding these little things and making it overly casual, but that is just an assumption with nothing but speculations (no real facts at this time) to back it up.
#192 Jul 04 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Of course if you look at all that from your own point of view you will come out with the same conclusion everytime. Instead their are different point of views for everything they have released sofar, and they could fit hardcore players as well. The comment about group play, we have already went over that a while ago, I already said that them making it less grind and soloable makes it more casual. That has nothing to do with a free warp item with low cooldown, or about other aspects being hardcore or casual. You could assume all you want, that they mean adding these little things and making it overly casual, but that is just an assumption with nothing but speculations (no real facts at this time) to back it up.


More wishful thinking. Rapid return features are a baseline feature in MMOs these days. You don't build the function of baseline features around a limited segment of your playerbase. Baseline means everyone should be able to benefit from it, not just one particular group. Cost per use rapid return items are tuned for the hardcore segment. Can't do that.
#193 Jul 04 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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This again has nothing to do with anything, SE is making their own game. They can make a more casual game without following this kind of thinking. It might not be your thought of casual, but it would (/could) be what they think of as casual (or casual enough to appeal to different types).

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 7:17pm by HocusP
#194 Jul 04 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
This again has nothing to do with anything, SE is making their own game. They can make a more casual game without following this kind of thinking. It might not be your thought of casual, but it would (/could) be what they think of as casual (or casual enough to appeal to different types).


Alright, since you're **** bent on avoiding the general concept discussion, let's get right down to cases.

Let's start with the FFXI concept of a warp scroll. It's available at level 1 for 750 CP with a single use.

For every 10xp you earn, you also earn roughly 1cp (if I recall correctly, there are some scalars involved, but a 10:1 ratio gives us enough to work with).

So based on that, you need to earn 7500xp for each warp scroll you want to buy. If you earn only 7500xp between warp scroll uses, you can afford a warp scroll but nothing else associated with a CP purchase. If you earn less than 7500xp between uses, you go without. If you earn more than 7500xp between uses, you're golden. Yes, there are other ways to earn CP. No, they don't apply to this discussion because unless you're talking about extreme vendor trash, it requires a tradeoff: things you could sell for gil being donated to regional NPCs for CP. That doesn't work for a casual setup.

Now let's apply the 40 minute model to that. Assuming you can get to your party within 10 minutes, at what point in the game can you expect to be able to earn 7500xp in 30 minutes in an average party? End-game, if at all, right? So based on that model, warp scrolls in FFXI are fully and completely inaccessible for the "40 minute player" to cut out the return travel at the end of the session. If a developer has a goal in mind to make content accessible to the player with 40 minutes, one of the first things they can strip out without watering down the content is the trip home, so pricing that return home feature beyond what a casual player could replenish every session is not going to work.

So what do you do? Reduce the cost? That would be the first logical choice, right? So how far do you reduce it? Rather than hack and botch and guess, it would make sense to try and figure at what point the "quick return" option would start to become necessary in order to allow for that "40 minute player" model. Say you alot for 10 minutes of travel time. At what point will it start to take a player 10 minutes just to get from a hub to a place where they can develop their character? And based on how the game is tuned, starting at that magical "you will now need 10 minutes minimum to reach your destination!" milestone, how much currency (cp/gil/whatever) can that "40 minute player" be expected to earn? And from that, how much would be reasonable to expect them to shell out for a return warp?

I think you'd find that if you broke it down, the amount that a developer could expect a casual player to be able to earn and then spend on the return home would be trivial. So trivial, in fact, that it wouldn't be worth the hassle to implement a fee. And without that baseline option to return to a hub at the end of a session to unload inventory, etc., you can't claim to offer a game with casual options without severely restricting what content a casual player has access to. And if you impose those kinds of restrictions, so much of what SE has said that want to see for their players in FFXIV will be impossible. So unless SE comes out between now and release and retracts everything they've said with regards to accessibility and a full, rich, rewarding experience for all players regardless of their schedule or style of play, they'd end up with a host of people spending their hard earned money to get into a game that...oh...didn't live up to what the devs said.

Is that what you want? Do you think that's what SE wants? It's time to set aside the trivial arguments on principle and get down to the mechanics. If you can't/won't do that, you've got nothing further to contribute to the discussion.


Edited, Jul 4th 2009 5:08pm by AureliusSir
#195 Jul 04 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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No, what you forget to include is you could always die for the easy way home, this is in fact a small price to pay also, just not in terms of money or CP. One more thing they never said you can do everything in 40mins, they said you can progress and enjoy your time, even if you only had 40mins to play. This doesn't mean everything in the game (like group play) will be effective in 40mins. What if they meant you can get on and solo for 40mins and progress and enjoy your time. Your dicussion is only going by your view of what they meant, and no one knows until the game is out (or beta), or until they release more information. They are putting out very little details and letting people put their own spin on what they said, unless they say "you can do this, this and this in 40mins", then they are not saying anything that they can't live up to.


Edited, Jul 4th 2009 8:38pm by HocusP
#196 Jul 04 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
No, what you forget to include is you could always die for the easy way home, this is in fact a small price to pay also, just not in terms of money. One more thing they never said you can do everything in 40mins, they said you can progress and enjoy your time, even if you only had 40mins to play. This doesn't mean everything in the game (like group play) will be effective and 40mins. What if they meant you can get on and solo for 40mins and progress and enjoy your time.


o.O

So...why should a part of the game be built around sacrificing your progress in one area just to get back to a hub in a timely fashion? You're thinking from the multiple-hour FFXI standpoint. How trivial would death with no raise be to you if everything you did was capped at 40-60 minutes? Do you really think casual players would ever accept the idea that "I can't earn enough in an hour or less to pay for a warp home so I have to die to get back to my save point?" What kind of sick and twisted logic is that?

When SE says they want players to be able to progress whether they've got 40 minutes or all day, guess what? They just set the baseline at < 1hr for progress. All baseline features of the game, to very much include travel options, are now based around that standard. You can have hardcore, you can have grinds, you can have things that take longer than that, but those extra things can't be the focus of the game otherwise SE is being misleading.

That's what I don't get. Free warps aren't going to hurt you. They aren't going to negatively impact your character in any way. If you've got free options and pay options and the free option makes you feel less involved or challenged or whatever, you can go with the pay options. But for the love of pete, get your selfish head out of your colon and consider the entire playerbase. Building the game for casual first with branching options for hardcore means everyone wins. Building it for hardcore first with scraps thrown to the casuals means the casuals lose. Quick return options are baseline in MMOs. They aren't "nice to have" features in the current genre...they're one of the first things a great many players look for when they're getting acquainted with the game.
#197 Jul 04 2009 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
That's what I don't get. Free warps aren't going to hurt you. They aren't going to negatively impact your character in any way. If you've got free options and pay options and the free option makes you feel less involved or challenged or whatever, you can go with the pay options. But for the love of pete, get your selfish head out of your colon and consider the entire playerbase. Building the game for casual first with branching options for hardcore means everyone wins. Building it for hardcore first with scraps thrown to the casuals means the casuals lose. Quick return options are baseline in MMOs. They aren't "nice to have" features in the current genre...they're one of the first things a great many players look for when they're getting acquainted with the game.


And you speak of free as if a necessity. Why not make gear free, so the person with only 5 minutes to play can do everything? Free gear isn't going to hurt you, everyone will be the same. Of course you can go out of your way and get the same gear for doing epic quests or just general questing but why bother?

The funny thing is you spent alot of time saying the game is going to be more casual friendly and then in an example you use a party. Casual play will most likely mean solo play. You go out on your own, spend time getting somewhere, kill things, "logging off there so you can resume when you log back on", and then return when you have a full inv or the likes.
#198 Jul 04 2009 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:

And you speak of free as if a necessity. Why not make gear free, so the person with only 5 minutes to play can do everything? Free gear isn't going to hurt you, everyone will be the same. Of course you can go out of your way and get the same gear for doing epic quests or just general questing but why bother?


Huge difference between gear and travel. Huge.

Quote:
The funny thing is you spent alot of time saying the game is going to be more casual friendly and then in an example you use a party. Casual play will most likely mean solo play. You go out on your own, spend time getting somewhere, kill things, "logging off there so you can resume when you log back on", and then return when you have a full inv or the likes.


I used the party example because I was using the FFXI warp scroll example to demonstrate how inaccessible such a system would be for a casual player.
#199 Jul 04 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Huge difference between gear and travel. Huge.


How? Collecting gear is a time sink, travelling is a time sink. Both are time sinks therefore the same.

Quote:
I used the party example because I was using the FFXI warp scroll example to demonstrate how inaccessible such a system would be for a casual player.


How is it inaccessible? I am solo/casual so therefore I can travel when I want to. I am not obligated to return to the main town after 40 mins of play. I can stay where I am and wait. Then when I am ready I can warp back. 40 mins of play doesn't mean needing to return back to town every time.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 1:05am by Feyted

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 1:06am by Feyted
#200 Jul 04 2009 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Huge difference between gear and travel. Huge.


How? Collecting gear is a time sink, travelling is a time sink. Both are time sinks therefore the same.


Apples are a fruit. Oranges are a fruit. Both are fruit, therefore they are the same.

What?

Quote:
How is it inaccessible? I am solo/casual so therefore I can travel when I want to. I am not obligated to return to the main town after 40 mins of play. I can stay where I am and wait. Then when I am ready I can warp back. 40 mins of play doesn't mean needing to return back to town every time.


You're absolutely right. It doesn't mean needing to return home every time, but it shouldn't mean needing to be stuck in the field until you can afford another warp item or having to gobble half your session (or more) on travel time, either.
#201 Jul 04 2009 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Feyted wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Huge difference between gear and travel. Huge.


How? Collecting gear is a time sink, travelling is a time sink. Both are time sinks therefore the same.


Apples are a fruit. Oranges are a fruit. Both are fruit, therefore they are the same.

What?


By your logic, you don't see the need to waste points on an item that you can get for free. Same thing, why should I buy gear when I can get it for free? If I don't have much time to play, I want to be able to do everything and if I need strong gear for that, I should get it free.

Quote:

Quote:
How is it inaccessible? I am solo/casual so therefore I can travel when I want to. I am not obligated to return to the main town after 40 mins of play. I can stay where I am and wait. Then when I am ready I can warp back. 40 mins of play doesn't mean needing to return back to town every time.


You're absolutely right. It doesn't mean needing to return home every time, but it shouldn't mean needing to be stuck in the field until you can afford another warp item or having to gobble half your session (or more) on travel time, either.


And when was affording a warp scroll hard? Or a warp cudgel (yes I am bringing it back because it is part of warping in FFXI and it makes it very easy) If I am casual, the cooldown isn't even going to affect me. Why should it be free? Because other games have it free? Because it makes things easier for the casual players? Because it saves times? All theses reasons are not valid because this logic can be applied to just about every other aspect of the game and would in effect make the game boring. For example the gear I said earlier. It saves me time needed to quest for it and as a casual player I would very much like to be on par with those that spend more time. Therefore it only makes sense that everything should be handed to you because you have less time to play.
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