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#202 Jul 04 2009 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
By your logic, you don't see the need to waste points on an item that you can get for free. Same thing, why should I buy gear when I can get it for free? If I don't have much time to play, I want to be able to do everything and if I need strong gear for that, I should get it free.


Show me an MMORPG where you regularly get gear for free and we'll discuss it. I'm not getting into this argument with you. Warp item is not the same as gear. Period.

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And when was affording a warp scroll hard?


When you had gone a while without doing anything that earned CP because you couldn't find a party?

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Or a warp cudgel


When you weren't yet level 36? Don't forget, there's progress in an MMO; I'm looking at the MMO from beginning to end-game, not mid-game to end-game.

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(yes I am bringing it back because it is part of warping in FFXI and it makes it very easy) If I am casual, the cooldown isn't even going to affect me. Why should it be free?


Because it makes the game viable for casual players.

#203 Jul 04 2009 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow page 5, this is jump all over again :P

AureliusSir wrote:
Show me an MMORPG where you regularly get gear for free and we'll discuss it. I'm not getting into this argument with you. Warp item is not the same as gear. Period.


But you use the same currency to buy gear/warp scroll in the case of CP so therefore I can choose to either get gear or warp scroll, give one free, same as the other.

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When you had gone a while without doing anything that earned CP because you couldn't find a party?


Why weren't you in a party? Why did you buy warp scrolls and used them without purpose? Why did you warp from the other side of South Gustaberg (Not really you, I did, waste of scroll)

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When you weren't yet level 36? Don't forget, there's progress in an MMO; I'm looking at the MMO from beginning to end-game, not mid-game to end-game.


And yes there is progress, where one should "progress" from walking around to warping, not get it because they want it.

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Because it makes the game viable for casual players.


Don't you mean easier?
#204 Jul 04 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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There is no "everyone wins", either casual or hardcore would have to be the main focus, and as soon as they pick one, the other side doesn't win. They can just make it where no side loses, but there is no way to make both sides win. You see casual losing because they don't have a free warp home and giving away free stuff, and I don't. Casual can win by making solo a better aspect, so you could play solo on your own time, instead of being dependent on other peoples time. This doesn't mean you need a free warp home everytime, you can get a warp home everytime, just not free (a little effort doesn't mean casual loses). You used the 40min comment then say groups would have to wait for people and stuff, that has nothing to do with anything. If you think they mean you can do everything with a group in 40 minutes then you are wrong, maybe if you only have 40 minutes to play you shouldn't be worrying about a group anyway.

Then you exaggerate the fact, and say that the game is "built around" sacrificing your process. This is not true you could put in the little bit of effort in obtaining warp, and then you wouldn't be sacrificng anything. It is just an option that you could die, this doesn't mean the game is built around dieing just to get back home. There are many ways to get back home, they are just not free. The game is only "built around" something if its forced upon you to die to get back home, not if its just an option of many ways.
#205 Jul 04 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
And yes there is progress, where one should "progress" from walking around to warping, not get it because they want it.


Again with the 'should'. Why 'should' they?

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Because it makes the game viable for casual players.


Don't you mean easier?


No, I mean viable. If you've got an hour to play once or twice a week and half (or more) of that time is spent traveling because you can't afford the baseline option that's given for free in other MMOs, why would you stick around?
#206 Jul 04 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see why there are so many people who seem to think "hardcore" means slow. I would consider hardcore more...hard...taking longer to get to places and to do things isn't hard at all. Just annoying.
#207 Jul 04 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
There is no "everyone wins", either casual or hardcore would have to be the main focus, and as soon as they pick one, the other side doesn't win.


Or inexperience/ignorance is showing. You're 100% wrong. You can have both, but it requires that casual be the foundation and hardcore be the icing on the cake.

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They can just make it where no side loses, but there is no way to make both sides win. You see casual losing because they don't have a free warp home and giving away free stuff, and I don't.


No, I see casual as losing because they're placed at a disadvantage. If, to use the current example, warp scrolls have a fixed fee, the affordability of that item will scale in the favor of the hardcore player and, if not properly priced, will be inaccessible to the casual player.

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Casual can win by making solo a better aspect, so you could play solo on your own time, instead of being dependent on other peoples time. This doesn't mean you need a free warp home everytime, you can get a warp home everytime, just not free (a little effort doesn't mean casual loses).


Why nickel and dime the casuals? You haven't answered that. What benefit is accrued by a casual player for having to pay for baseline features?

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You used the 40min comment then say groups would have to wait for people and stuff, that has nothing to do with anything. If you think they mean you can do everything with a group in 40 minutes then you are wrong, maybe if you only have 40 minutes to play you shouldn't be worrying about a group anyway.


-.-

I was using the context of a warp scroll...an FFXI item...in the context of FFXI...to demonstrate how that system in FFXI does not work for the casual player. That's why I mentioned groups. That's why I mentioned CP and warp scrolls. And I went on to explain further about how you'd have to scale the cost to the point where it became trivial and thus not worth implementing.

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Then you exaggerate the fact, and say that the game is "built around" sacrificing your process. This is not true you could put in the little bit of effort in obtaining warp, and then you wouldn't be sacrificng anything.


And then the next time you need the warp you put in the little bit of effort and the next time and the next time but the problem is you only have time to put in a little bit of effort so all of your effort is going to the trip home instead of progressing your character.

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It is just an option that you could die, this doesn't mean the game is built around dieing just to get back home.


You're going to have to be a little less thick and a little more intelligent from now on. You've gone from twit to moron in the span of about 5 posts.
#208 Jul 04 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Why would people want to have to work for anything if they could get it all free then? Why should we have to level? Why should be have a free item? I am casual so therefore I could be given a free warp, along with a free item at every level because I don't have time. But where will that happen. Work for items like gear and work for items that warp you.

An hour to play a week and you talk about a free warp? I have an hour to play, I don't want to spend it traveling, I demand instant warp to the place I want to level in and back then. See how that doesn't work? Instant warp to anywhere.
#209 Jul 04 2009 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
Why would people want to have to work for anything if they could get it all free then? Why should we have to level? Why should be have a free item? I am casual so therefore I could be given a free warp, along with a free item at every level because I don't have time. But where will that happen. Work for items like gear and work for items that warp you.


This thread is about warp items, not "everything." Enough.
#210 Jul 04 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes a game item about warp, not trends in gaming...
#211 Jul 04 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
Yes a game item about warp, not trends in gaming...


That's right.
#212 Jul 04 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Then why did you bring it up way back when?
#213 Jul 04 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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There is a difference between both aspects winning, and both aspects coexisting. They both can coexist, but they both can't win. There will always be one side of players that feel like its too hardcore, or too casual depending on what you like. Both aspects coexist in a lot of games, even ffxi has some casual aspects, but you still feel like casual is losing right? Thats the same as hardcore players feel if they make it 90% casual and 10% hardcore like you said way earlier, so in reality it coexist but both does not win.

Are you serious lol, warp items are inaccessible to the casual players (give me a break).

Why nickle and dime the hardcore? casual players are not better then hardcore players same as vice versa. Ties back into both cannot win, either one feels like they getting nickle and dimed for requiring a little effort.

You are using insults, and I am providing points without providing insults. So lets see whose intelligence is going down everytime they post, insults is used when people have nothing else intelligent to say.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 10:19pm by HocusP
#214 Jul 04 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
Then why did you bring it up way back when?


Because you'll be hard pressed to find an MMO released in the last 5 years that doesn't have a perpetual return warp item, and there's a reason for it. That's the trend, and the only argument offered against it is that a player "should" have to pay for this or do that before they're given the "privilege" of expedited travel at the end of a session. It's just a lame argument that doesn't stand up to...much of anything. hardcore will always be hardcore. They'll always be thick and dense and totally unreasonable when it comes to anything outside the scope of hardcore. They'll always moan and QQ at the idea of convenience or accessibility because it shrinks their e-peen and invalidates their own haughty sense of masochism.

Nobody in this entire thread has presented a logical benefit to forcing a fee for a return warp item. Plenty of reasonable arguments have been presented regarding the benefits of offering it for free. Unless you can give me a point by point list of the benefits of restricting those kinds of items to pay-only (as opposed to simply, "QQ why not make everything free then? QQ"), you also have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
#215 Jul 04 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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::steps back and assesses the arguments:::

Skill Time = Hardcore

Many hardcore game with mediocre profits and performances > 90th populated country on the planet

Minutes saved by having a warp option at all < Seconds spent attaining it

Death = Form of Transportation

Travel Time = Armor

Less Travel Time = Game requires less Skill; ergo Travel = Skill

A warp that doesn't require payment = unraveling the fabric of reality as we know it.


::pinches the bridge of her nose:::
...I...need to take a break from this thread.





Edited, Jul 4th 2009 10:20pm by Zemzelette
#216 Jul 04 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
There is a difference between both aspects winning, and both aspects coexisting. They both can coexist, but they both can't win. There will always be one side of players that feel like its too hardcore, or too casual depending on what you like. Both aspects coexist in a lot of games, even ffxi has some casual aspects, but you still feel like casual is losing right? Thats the same as hardcore players feel if they make it 90% casual and 10% hardcore like you said way earlier, so in reality it coexist but both does not win.


How does casual content hurt hardcore? Stop dancing around it, grow a pair, and make some points. It's easy to hide behind strawman arguments without actually making a point...if that's your style, fill your boots. Just don't expect to influence me...or anyone else with a clue.
#217 Jul 04 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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If you confuse casual content with free stuff then you are just making my argument that much easier. BTW I edited my other post to add a few more points. You could make the game too casual with no sense of achievements and hard work, which could hurt hardcore players (thats one way). If something as small as a warp home is a "necessity" to be casual, then I can only imagine what else you want to be easier so it could fit the casual players.
#218 Jul 04 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Are you serious lol, warp items are inaccessible to the casual players (give me a break).


Can someone who plays FFXI for an hour at a time...regardless of what they spend that hour doing...afford a warp scroll at the end of each session to get back to town? Yes or no. No "QQ but". Yes. Or no.

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Why nickle and dime the hardcore?


How is it impacting in ANY WAY on the hardcore? How?

In what way does the hardcore player suffer because basic functions are presented at no cost?

How?

Is there a way, or just another, "I need to justify my masochism D:"?

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Ties back into both cannot win, either one feels like they getting nickle and dimed for requiring a little effort.


Why? Or is that just another strawman argument...another statement with nothing to back it up? I'll go with strawman for 1000, Alex.
#219 Jul 04 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
If you confuse casual content with free stuff


A free warp item. Not "stuff". A specific item. Period.

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then you are just making my argument that much easier.


You have no argument that I've seen.

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BTW I edited my other post to add a few more points. You could make the game too casual with no sense of achievements and hard work, which could hurt hardcore players (thats one way).


Ya, you could, but you can also make the game with casual content as the base and optional hardcore content to keep everyone happy.

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If something as small as a warp home is a "necessity" to be casual, then I can only imagine what else you want to be easier so it could fit the casual players.


Not talking about anything else. Talking about warp items. Savvy?
#220 Jul 04 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Because you'll be hard pressed to find an MMO released in the last 5 years that doesn't have a perpetual return warp item, and there's a reason for it. That's the trend, and the only argument offered against it is that a player "should" have to pay for this or do that before they're given the "privilege" of expedited travel at the end of a session. It's just a lame argument that doesn't stand up to...much of anything. hardcore will always be hardcore. They'll always be thick and dense and totally unreasonable when it comes to anything outside the scope of hardcore. They'll always moan and QQ at the idea of convenience or accessibility because it shrinks their e-peen and invalidates their own haughty sense of masochism.

Nobody in this entire thread has presented a logical benefit to forcing a fee for a return warp item. Plenty of reasonable arguments have been presented regarding the benefits of offering it for free. Unless you can give me a point by point list of the benefits of restricting those kinds of items to pay-only (as opposed to simply, "QQ why not make everything free then? QQ"), you also have nothing to contribute to the discussion.


Why? Because I want a game that requires a little more effort? I QQ because I want to be forced to do more? If it is given then sure I'll use it, if I have to work for it then yes I will work for it. I am only saying that it isn't going to change the way I play, but the more time needed to play a game, the longer I will play it. Maybe it's because I enjoy using my time trying to do things no matter how trivial (like talking to people on this forum) but it is something I want to do.

Your hardcore argument can always be used against you. Casual will always be casual. They'll always be lazy and uninterested and totally unreasonable when it comes to anything outside the scope of casual. They'll always moan and QQ at the idea of spending time and effort and working towards something because they have the attention span of a 3 year old and need to be spoon fed everything. They have no sense of accomplishment and want to get to the end as soon as possible to wave their e-peen at their friends saying I got there the fastest. They need to complain otherwise they find that things will be too hard and they run away from anything that may require even a small amount of effort.

As for the arguments for having a free warp item, so far I have only seen that it benefits casual games so that they can return to the main city or what ever easier. That's very well thought out and presented. I have less time, make my time in the game spent doing things I want to do. And one item can do all this. A free warp available from the very beginning. Attach a 24/48 hour recast and it will still serve the same function for those casuals with only 40 minutes to play maybe a couple of times a week right? And then you can buy the rest of the warp scrolls if you need them. Doesn't that work? Best of both worlds?

Of course I have nothing against casual players as I am a semi casual gamer myself.
#221 Jul 04 2009 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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It doesn't matter if you can afford it after every exp session, there is no harm in logging there, you don't have to go back home after every exp session either. Not to mention levels 1-5 is free CP points, because you could die with no penalty (I think you start losing exp at level6).

How is it impacting the casual users because it require a little effort to warp home. I mean you could say this about a lot of things in the game to make it more casual. How about making you learn all the spells automatically because the casual player wont have enough gil to buy scrolls. I mean where do it stop if its an "necessity" with something as little as a way home, when there are already so many options that require little of effort.
#222 Jul 04 2009 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
Why? Because I want a game that requires a little more effort? I QQ because I want to be forced to do more?


No, you QQ because you oppose an idea that forces other people to do more whether their schedule permits it or not.

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If it is given then sure I'll use it,


Oh...

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if I have to work for it then yes I will work for it.


And the people who can, will. And the people who can't...won't play. And they'll review the press releases from SE talking about a game for "everyone" and say to themselves, "What a crock of sh*t..."

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I am only saying that it isn't going to change the way I play, but the more time needed to play a game, the longer I will play it. Maybe it's because I enjoy using my time trying to do things no matter how trivial (like talking to people on this forum) but it is something I want to do.


So if you had 10-30 minutes knocked off your travel time at no cost to you, do you think you could find something else to fill that extra time with?

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Your hardcore argument can always be used against you. Casual will always be casual.


Most likely, yes.

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They'll always be lazy and uninterested and totally unreasonable when it comes to anything outside the scope of casual.


Tell the parent who squeezes an hour of game time in after the kids go to bed that they're "lazy" because they appreciate a fast travel option that leaves them more time to do other things. Tell the person with the full time job + family that they're lazy. Tell the person with the full time job + school that they're lazy. Tell the person with a full day of responsibilities and an active social life outside the game that they're lazy. Those are all fully valid reasons why someone would have limited playtime, and there is no valid reason for them to be excluded because the hardcore folks feel compelled to have to grind for everything.

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As for the arguments for having a free warp item, so far I have only seen that it benefits casual games so that they can return to the main city or what ever easier. That's very well thought out and presented. I have less time, make my time in the game spent doing things I want to do. And one item can do all this. A free warp available from the very beginning. Attach a 24/48 hour recast and it will still serve the same function for those casuals with only 40 minutes to play maybe a couple of times a week right? And then you can buy the rest of the warp scrolls if you need them. Doesn't that work? Best of both worlds?


12 hour recast and you're on to something. 24 hours means that if you play from 9:30 - 10:30 one night, if you have time to play the next night you're stuck waiting until 10:30 to use the item again, even if you were out of time at 10pm.


Edited, Jul 4th 2009 7:51pm by AureliusSir
#223 Jul 04 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
It doesn't matter if you can afford it after every exp session, there is no harm in logging there, you don't have to go back home after every exp session either. Not to mention levels 1-5 is free CP points, because you could die with no penalty (I think you start losing exp at level6).


Why should you have to log where you are at the end of a session if you don't have time to run back or don't have the currency for the warp item when a free item solves that problem?

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How is it impacting the casual users because it require a little effort to warp home.


You're comparing "little effort" in FFXI based on the standards of multiple-hour sessions. You're not accounting for cost scaling based on frequency of use and time to earn the currency. Think in one hour blocks and tell me warp scrolls are a viable return option.

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I mean you could say this about a lot of things in the game to make it more casual.


Could, but that would be a whole different discussion. This discussion is about warp items.
#224 Jul 04 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Tell the parent who squeezes an hour of game time in after the kids go to bed that they're "lazy" because they appreciate a fast travel option that leaves them more time to do other things. Tell the person with the full time job + family that they're lazy. Tell the person with the full time job + school that they're lazy. Tell the person with a full day of responsibilities and an active social life outside the game that they're lazy. Those are all fully valid reasons why someone would have limited playtime, and there is no valid reason for them to be excluded because the hardcore folks feel compelled to have to grind for everything.


Maybe these people should stop playing games and actually focus on things that matter in their lives? Games are using up times that can be spent better elsewhere. I just choose not to. Maybe they should learn to be better parents/workers/students/family members. And they are lazy in a sense. If they want to spend their time playing a game where people devote time to accomplish things, they shouldn't QQ because they don't have the time, they should QQ at themselves for trying to do the same as another person with less responsibilities and instead better themselves.

I apologise to people who may take offence at this but honestly, spending time indoors playing games is not healthy. Of course I am not healthy for doing such a thing but I am proud about it :P
#225 Jul 04 2009 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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Interesting arguments on both sides but I have to ask, if SE implements a system akin to FoV doesn't that remove the "need" for a perma-warp item? The books are easily accessible (Multiple books in most Signet Zones) and the points required to utilize the warp from the FoV book are easy to come by, especially in the earlier zones where monsters are much, much easier to solo. Sure the FoV isn't around in non-signet areas but by the time you reach those places there's tons of other travel options available. So, if a similiar system was implemented do you still think we'd "need" perma-warp items?
#226 Jul 04 2009 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Venion wrote:
Interesting arguments on both sides but I have to ask, if SE implements a system akin to FoV doesn't that remove the "need" for a perma-warp item? The books are easily accessible (Multiple books in most Signet Zones) and the points required to utilize the warp from the FoV book are easy to come by, especially in the earlier zones where monsters are much, much easier to solo. Sure the FoV isn't around in non-signet areas but by the time you reach those places there's tons of other travel options available. So, if a similiar system was implemented do you still think we'd "need" perma-warp items?


FoV repatriation is awesome. It's accessible and effective. The only drawback relative to a free item is that if (for example), you're in the middle of La Theine and you want to get back to San d'Oria, you still have to run to the zone line to Ronfaure or peek into Valkurm to get to a manual, and you still have to do one or two training regimens (at least, 1 or 2 at early levels...I can't speak to anything beyond level 13 <.<) in order to use the repatriation feature. Compared to warp scrolls/cudgels, it's an enormous improvement in terms of the necessary "pre work" to access the feature. If I had to choose between pay options and the FoV repatriation system, I'd go with FoV hands down. I still think that for a new MMO, it would be a tough sell. There are just too many players that are accustomed to the perpetual item that gets them to their predesignated safe spot without having to meet any prerequisites. SE has to overcome the FFXI stigma if they want to start strong and stay that way, and they appear to know this. I wouldn't condemn SE for foregoing the perpetual item in favor of a FoV repatriation feature, but I think they could do better.
#227 Jul 04 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Feyted wrote:
Maybe these people should stop playing games and actually focus on things that matter in their lives? Games are using up times that can be spent better elsewhere. I just choose not to. Maybe they should learn to be better parents/workers/students/family members. And they are lazy in a sense. If they want to spend their time playing a game where people devote time to accomplish things, they shouldn't QQ because they don't have the time, they should QQ at themselves for trying to do the same as another person with less responsibilities and instead better themselves.


So...people who are busy and have priorities should have no recreation time at all?
#228 Jul 04 2009 at 7:13 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
So...people who are busy and have priorities should have no recreation time at all?


They should spend it doing something that doesn't involve QQ about not being able to accomplish things that people who spend alot more time can.
#229 Jul 04 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Feyted wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
So...people who are busy and have priorities should have no recreation time at all?


They should spend it doing something that doesn't involve QQ about not being able to accomplish things that people who spend alot more time can.


Send in the next twit. I'm done with this one.
#230Feyted, Posted: Jul 04 2009 at 7:25 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It appears I am being looked down upon by a microscopic germ. Oh deary me, what ever shall I do. Maybe it is best that we leave this being to participate in his deluded fantasy that is mediocrity and have a discussion where actual intellect is required, not often found in QQ casuals such as AureliusSir.
#231 Jul 04 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
FoV repatriation is awesome. It's accessible and effective. The only drawback relative to a free item is that if (for example), you're in the middle of La Theine and you want to get back to San d'Oria, you still have to run to the zone line to Ronfaure or peek into Valkurm to get to a manual, and you still have to do one or two training regimens (at least, 1 or 2 at early levels...I can't speak to anything beyond level 13 <.<) in order to use the repatriation feature.


While you are correct it requires some travel to reach one of the FoV books I would like to correct you on the fact that one does not need to travel quite as far as it may seem. Your example uses La Theine which has books near W.Ron as well as at the Crag so one is never really more than 5 minutes tops away from a book. This applies to most zones as far as I can tell. There's usually multiple books within each zone.

Yes, they require one to do regimens to utilize the warp function, as well as the other useful functions of the book but that's little more than a simple task. At least in FFXI most exp'ing I've witnessed and done myself (Solo and Party) within signet areas utilized these regimens for the experience boost.

SE is quite stubborn when it comes to taking things from other games. Wasn't their entire reasoning for monsters simply disappearing when they deaggro'd because another game had them walking back and they wanted to do something different? I wouldn't put it past SE to implement a different system than a perma-warp item just to be different and while not exactly what you're asking for FoV fits the need well enough, no?
#232 Jul 04 2009 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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Venion wrote:
Quote:
FoV repatriation is awesome. It's accessible and effective. The only drawback relative to a free item is that if (for example), you're in the middle of La Theine and you want to get back to San d'Oria, you still have to run to the zone line to Ronfaure or peek into Valkurm to get to a manual, and you still have to do one or two training regimens (at least, 1 or 2 at early levels...I can't speak to anything beyond level 13 <.<) in order to use the repatriation feature.


While you are correct it requires some travel to reach one of the FoV books I would like to correct you on the fact that one does not need to travel quite as far as it may seem. Your example uses La Theine which has books near W.Ron as well as at the Crag so one is never really more than 5 minutes tops away from a book. This applies to most zones as far as I can tell. There's usually multiple books within each zone.


That helps. 5 mins or so is far and away better than a 20 minute run or some form of currency that could be used for something else more beneficial.

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SE is quite stubborn when it comes to taking things from other games. Wasn't their entire reasoning for monsters simply disappearing when they deaggro'd because another game had them walking back and they wanted to do something different? I wouldn't put it past SE to implement a different system than a perma-warp item just to be different and while not exactly what you're asking for FoV fits the need well enough, no?


I'm not sure why they did it that way. I kind of think it had more to do with development time. Easier to code a despawn than to flag as unclaimable and path back to their normal patrol area. IMO, they would have been much better off just leashing them like so many other MMOs, but I digress. I think SE has come a long way since the NA release of FFXI, and I understand that a lot of the changes they might have liked to have made to FFXI weren't made because the only thing that will kill an MMO faster these days than catering to a minority playerbase is to gut an existing game to try and attract new blood at the expense of your existing players.

The SE press releases have been extremely encouraging to the casual segment of the MMORPG gamer population. I would absolutely love to see a game where casual and hardcore gamers can happily exist side by side, and something tells me that's what we'll eventually see. Personally, I think all of this, "preserve the game I want to play to the exclusion of the casuals" is just a bunch of baseless talk, and very few of the "zomfg too easy" crowd will actually find issue with a more casual base.
#233 Jul 04 2009 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Feyted wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
So...people who are busy and have priorities should have no recreation time at all?


They should spend it doing something that doesn't involve QQ about not being able to accomplish things that people who spend alot more time can.


Send in the next twit. I'm done with this one.


An infinite warp item given to you at level 1 with only a one hour cooldown is retarded. There have been multiple compromises that have been more than fair, but apparently they're not good enough? Stop arguing the point when it's already been dealt with in a reasonable matter, and stop degrading every debate into essentially a flame war. ~.~

I've never had a problem warping in ffxi and I'm positive there's going to be no problem warping in ffxiv. Warping is not the only way to return home, and it doesn't need to be given away for free. An equivalent of a hearthstone is not needed.
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#234 Jul 04 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
An infinite warp item given to you at level 1 with only a one hour cooldown is retarded.


Based on? Were you going to back up the statement, or just make it and think that's enough? Do yourself a favor. Elevate yourself above the other twits and at least try to present a cogent argument.
#235 Jul 04 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
An infinite warp item given to you at level 1 with only a one hour cooldown is retarded.


Based on? Were you going to back up the statement, or just make it and think that's enough? Do yourself a favor. Elevate yourself above the other twits and at least try to present a cogent argument.


Because you don't need to warp every single hour. Being able to warp without thinking about any consequences at all is overpowered. Bubble-hearth is a good example imo. Smiley: lol It's like having your hand held as you progress through the game. It's not needed. A lot of the compromises posted in the last few pages are more than enough to let people warp whenever they need to. Many of those compromises are acceptable, they don't throw the game and traveling into ezmode.
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#236 Jul 04 2009 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Because you don't need to warp every single hour. Being able to warp without thinking about any consequences at all is overpowered.


Tell that to black mages in FFXI. But the free option is fine as long as you have to grind to mid-levels before you can use it, amirite? How many people in FFXI leveled BLM as a sub specifically for warp? But there was no demand for a free warp option...nope...never.

Quote:
It's like having your hand held as you progress through the game.


How so?

Quote:
A lot of the compromises posted in the last few pages are more than enough to let people warp whenever they need to.


If you play for multiple hours in a session, yes. But again it begs the question...if SE is willing to allow repatriation for such a trivial cost, why not just allow a free option? There's no reason not to, aside from maybe stepping on the toes of players who object to convenience on some obscure and inexplicable principle.
#237 Jul 04 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Because you don't need to warp every single hour.


Not every hour probably, but you may want to warp a few times in a row. You may warp, do what you need back home, head out and then once you get back to your leveling area realize that you forgot something and need to go home. Or you changed your mind and want to switch jobs. Or you ran into a friend and want to give them an item you have back home. Or you have another reason. Who cares. Forcing players to waste time on needless, repetitive travel is bad game design. We do not benefit from it at all. It only hurts us. It costs us time, currency and enthusiasm.


Quote:
Being able to warp without thinking about any consequences at all is overpowered.


Why is it overpowered? Why should it have consequences?

Quote:
Many of those compromises are acceptable, they don't throw the game and traveling into ezmode.


Easy mode? Eliminating time sinks won't make the game easier, just more accessible. Why do you think allowing players more time and ability to access and enjoy more of the game, to immerse themselves deeper into the game and to enjoy more of it's content would make the game easier?

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 2:32am by keelut
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#238 Jul 05 2009 at 1:45 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:

Because you don't need to warp every single hour. Being able to warp without thinking about any consequences at all is overpowered. Bubble-hearth is a good example imo.


Bubble-hearthing overpowered? Are you freaking serious?

About the only time it provides any benefit at all is if you've been jumped by more mobs (because only PvE deaths cause durability loss) than you can handle and you are close to your bind point to begin with. And even then, it's still a stupider idea than bubbling and running far enough that the mobs lose interest.

Sure, it can be good at annoying people in PvP, but annoying =/= overpowered. Especially when that annoying action just made your enemies' goal easier.
#239 Jul 05 2009 at 2:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd like to know how this thread got to five pages.

Final Fantasy XIV may not even have home points at all.
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#240 Jul 05 2009 at 5:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Tell that to black mages in FFXI. But the free option is fine as long as you have to grind to mid-levels before you can use it, amirite? How many people in FFXI leveled BLM as a sub specifically for warp? But there was no demand for a free warp option...nope...never


You never seem to make sense lol, I guess we all should have a free teleport item for each crystal too right? Because whms can teleport free. People leveled whms just for the teleports and to make money off teleporting, so there is a demand there also give me a break. There are demands to make a ton of stuff easier, doesn't mean that demand always have to be met (Yes it can make exploring easier because you can just go well this way is a dead end, ill warp out). Then continue that process until you find where you want to go, that to me is mindlessly exploring. I have no problem with this method of exploring, but I believe there should be some sort of small price along with it (like the small price of warp).

You say nobody has given a reasonable arguement on why there should be a price to warp. If you don't think the many things said on here is reasonable, then thats your fault. You havern't given an 100% reasonable answer why warp should be free either if its that way. Lets see as you level (or growth), you unlock better ways to warp home and travel (warp cudgel at 36). You see a free warp item with small cooldown as only being used in your way, but you have to look at other ways it could be used. As I stated "I went this way and it was a dead end so I warped out, so lets go this way now, well it was a dead end also warping out again". If you don't think that is easier then remembering and backtracking to explore, or paying a very minor fee to warp out everytime, then you are not thinking. All I'm hearing is it should be free because casual players don't have time to walk home. Well casual players don't have to walk home everytime (one point), they can log there and casual players can put forth the small effort to warp home (2nd point). Casual doesn't mean free things (yes warp is a thing), it means you can put forth the same effort as everyone else, and still can accomplish things in a shorter time period. So I havern't heard one thing on how free warp is a "necessity" for the game to be casual, because it is not, a warp with a small amount of effort is casual also.

You say you don't mind walking the 5 minutes, well thats all I am asking for. A little bit of effort in any form, effort is not only in gil, it could be in traveling, gil, exp, quest, etc. That is much better then a free warp button (or item), available for use everytime you want it.






Edited, Jul 5th 2009 10:03am by HocusP
#241 Jul 05 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
As I stated "I went this way and it was a dead end so I warped out, so lets go this way now, well it was a dead end also warping out again". If you don't think that is easier then remembering and backtracking to explore, or paying a very minor fee to warp out everytime, then you are not thinking.



You're kidding, right? You're exploring an area, and you think it would be easier to warp aaaalllll the way back to your homepoint (for free!!!) then walk aaaalllll the way back to the area that you were exploring and choose a different path than to backtrack for a couple of minutes to find the last fork in the path? Seriously?


HocusP wrote:
You say you don't mind walking the 5 minutes, well thats all I am asking for. A little bit of effort in any form, effort is not only in gil, it could be in traveling, gil, exp, quest, etc. That is much better then a free warp button (or item), available for use everytime you want it.


That's great, but there were very few locations in XI that were a mere 5 minute walk away. It was a 5 minute walk from the farthest two points in a city. A zone and a half, you're talking more like 15-20 minutes of walking.


Edited, Jul 5th 2009 10:41am by SEforPrez
#242 Jul 05 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Closing of the day =/= setting off into adventure

The fact your transporting to a place is similar, but the intentions behind the locations are vastly different.

I understand what your trying, HocusP. Your trying to draw parallels to things in a very general sense to approach the argument from a different perspective. But your stepping back too far. Your glossing over the specifics that define the objects your drawing parallels between, in a way that's transparent to everyone here, and that really just makes your arguments seem disconnected with the world at large. Your rebuttals seem less like poignant eye-opening parallels and more like the hysterical ravings of a street corner derelict about his ill-defined doomsday prophecy.

Your stance is better served by outlining the positives of longer hearthstones times, or hearthstones that require an investment.

While I personally can't see any benefit for longer hearthstones.
I can see why someone might want to retain the fact it requires resources just to have another gilsink floating around the economy. Pay x amount for y number of charges, scaling in a way that's intelligent for a person's level.

This is at least an argument we can grasp in our hands and begin to debate in an intelligent way.






Edited, Jul 5th 2009 10:42am by Zemzelette
#243 Jul 05 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You're kidding, right? You're exploring an area, and you think it would be easier to warp aaaalllll the way back to your homepoint (for free!!!) then walk aaaalllll the way back to the area that you were exploring and choose a different path than to backtrack for a couple of minutes to find the last fork in the path? Seriously?


Depending on where your homepoint is, and the ways of traveling, then yes this could be a method. Your assuming that traveling back to the area will be more work then backtracking through mobs and going different routes but you don't know this. You are also assuming the zone is small and takes a few minutes (and avoiding aggro), to get back and try another route, when many zones are big and could require more time to go back and go another route (and more work then just warping and starting from the beginning of the zone again).

Quote:
That's great, but there were very few locations in XI that were a mere 5 minute walk away. It was a 5 minute walk from the farthest two points in a city. A zone and a half, you're talking more like 15-20 minutes of walking.


I'm talking about a 5 minute walk when you can, and a warp scroll's worth of effort (like gil for cud, or CP for scroll) when you can not. Its that simple, require some effort, and not be free. How about you say "well its not a post 5 minutes away from this zone, so maybe I should get a scroll this time", its not that hard and requires minor effort.

Quote:
I can see why someone might want to retain the fact it requires resources just to have another gilsink floating around the economy. Pay x amount for y number of charges, scaling in a way that's intelligent for a person's level.

This is at least an argument we can grasp in our hands and begin to debate in an intelligent way.


Its not about having a gilsink in the economy, that wouldn't make much of an intelligent arguement at all because blm get warp free, and warp scrolls dont require gil. Its about using some effort, in the way you warp its simple, every way of warp should require some effort (yes I said should, thats my opinion). Some should just require less effort then others (making it better for casual), but none should require no effort whatsoever. Blm getting warp requires effort, you had to level, warp scroll requires small effort, you had to use Cp, warp cud requires effort you had to use gil, HS requires no effort, its that simple.

Where this comes down to is some people think when they are playing a MMO their are certain things they are born with (like liberties or something), and some people do not think so, and think you should use some sort of effort in everything. Rather that effort be time, gil, exp, questing, missions, something. I wouldn't mind if you were given a HS after a certain point in the missions or as some sort of quest (not very easy quest like lvl 1 could do), as long as it requires some effort. Completing a quest, doing missions, spending gil, spending cp, and losing exp, all is some sort of effort, not just a free item.


Edited, Jul 5th 2009 11:47am by HocusP
#244 Jul 05 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Quote:
Tell that to black mages in FFXI. But the free option is fine as long as you have to grind to mid-levels before you can use it, amirite? How many people in FFXI leveled BLM as a sub specifically for warp? But there was no demand for a free warp option...nope...never


You never seem to make sense lol, I guess we all should have a free teleport item for each crystal too right? Because whms can teleport free. People leveled whms just for the teleports and to make money off teleporting, so there is a demand there also give me a break.


In most MMOs, there's a distinct difference between the options to get to your destination, and your options to get back from it. If you want to discuss options for travel to various destinations, start another thread.

Quote:
There are demands to make a ton of stuff easier, doesn't mean that demand always have to be met (Yes it can make exploring easier because you can just go well this way is a dead end, ill warp out). Then continue that process until you find where you want to go, that to me is mindlessly exploring. I have no problem with this method of exploring, but I believe there should be some sort of small price along with it (like the small price of warp).


Not easier. Less time consuming.

I'll give you the same scenario I gave Deadgye earlier in the thread:

FFXIV ships and you've got 2 options: a free option granted by a perpetual item on a 1 hour cooldown, or an item you have to pay for that you can only use once/hour. And they share a cooldown. Are you going to use the free option or the pay option? Because if your answer is anything other than, "Yes, I would absolutely use the pay option 100% of the time," you're full of sh*t and all of your, "there should be" crap is a bunch of lip service paid to a dated time sink concept.

Quote:
You say nobody has given a reasonable arguement on why there should be a price to warp. If you don't think the many things said on here is reasonable, then thats your fault.


Or, it could just mean that no reasonable argument has been presented. You asserting your notion of what 'should' be when your notion of what 'should' be can potentially make the game inaccessible to the casual player is a load of garbage. The people advocating baseline elements of the game at no cost aren't suggesting anything that is going to hurt the hardcore neophyte. At all. Not in the least.

Quote:
You havern't given an 100% reasonable answer why warp should be free either if its that way.


I absolutely have.

Quote:
Lets see as you level (or growth), you unlock better ways to warp home and travel (warp cudgel at 36). You see a free warp item with small cooldown as only being used in your way, but you have to look at other ways it could be used. As I stated "I went this way and it was a dead end so I warped out, so lets go this way now, well it was a dead end also warping out again".


So if other players are doing that, how does it hurt you? It doesn't. If you don't think that's the "right" way to explore, don't do it that way. Do it the way you think is right. You have absolutely no right to dictate to other people the "right" way or the "wrong" way to explore. If you think everything in a game should come at a cost, that's absolutely fine, but when you cross the line and start dictating to other people that they should have to welcome the same restrictions as you, you're just being a dork. Play the game how you want to play it and don't QQ about aspects of a game catered to make casual play on a limited timeframe accessible.

Quote:
If you don't think that is easier then remembering and backtracking to explore, or paying a very minor fee to warp out everytime, then you are not thinking. All I'm hearing is it should be free because casual players don't have time to walk home.


Oh, they'd have time...time they'd be more entertained investing elsewhere. That's the whole point. If you bog down casual players in time sinks, they aren't going to stick around. You may not care, but when SE is putting their reputation as a game developer on the line by announcing the game will be tailored to suit the full spectrum of MMO gamers to very much include casual players, they have no choice but to care. That means they have to keep accessibility firmly in mind, and a huge step towards enabling that is expedited travel to a safe spot with the fewest obstacles possible.

Quote:
You say you don't mind walking the 5 minutes, well thats all I am asking for. A little bit of effort in any form, effort is not only in gil, it could be in traveling, gil, exp, quest, etc. That is much better then a free warp button (or item), available for use everytime you want it.


In your opinion, and unfortunately your opinion seems to be based on an extremely limited scope of reference. SE doesn't have the benefit of breaching a market that is largely untouched...WoW took that benefit away. There will be far fewer players listing FFXIV as their first MMO than there were listing FFXI as theirs. That means people have other games to reference when they're evaluating the features of FFXIV, and when you're talking about a standard feature like a perpetual warp item, the omission of that item will stand out.

No MMO developer since WoW has made such an effort in their initial press offerings to reassure players that the upcoming product will be casual friendly as SE has done with FFXIV. Almost everything SE had to say about the actual style of play in FFXIV came with a reference to making the game more accessible. Needless time sinks are the antithesis of casual friendly, and paying for that trip home every single time is a needless time sink.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 11:16am by AureliusSir
#245 Jul 05 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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You absolutely have not, everything you say can either be turned around the other way and used against you, or doesn't make sense. Like for example you are saying that not having a free warp home makes the game "inaccessible to casual players". That is not true even in the least, you can access the game and be casual just not free.

We have went over this point already, if something is free in the game of course thats the option everybody is going to use. I don't see where this means anything to the thread, people will use anything thats free or requires no effort (and the point is?). Words like there shouldn't be any effort is the same as me saying they should be, (hello its an opinion). I will repeat timesinks are something that is forced upon players, it is not a timesink if there are other methods (other then walking back), that give you the same time cut, but with a little effort attached.

Because I want the game to require effort for things, I am dictating how everybody should play? I actually said I have no problem with exploring that way, but thats where the price comes in at. You are doing the same exact thing, you are dictating how players should play by adding in free stuff (anything free or requires no effort and it will be used). Nothing will stand out, when there are other ways in the game that gives you the same time cut with a little effort involved.

LoL I'm being a dork, because you don't understand a simple concept. Anything free that requires no effort and that way will be used by everyone. You sound like somebody that gets mad when they order from burger king and find out there is no free toy in there happy meal.

You use the interviews as a basis of this is an "necessity" when in reality that is all just your speculation. They said stuff in a very broad way, and are letting people put there own spin on it. Until they say we will do this, this, and this, to make it more causal friendly, everything you are saying is speculation. Stuff like "a bit" and "all types of players" tells you nothing (not a single detail), on how the game will be. Instead you are putting your own details in it, and using that as it have to be like that or SE lied. No SE didn't lie, you just over analyzed everything in your own way, and we will find out later when more (as in details, not just broad remarks that can be interpreted in many different ways) things is let out. A detail is a specific remark, that explains how something will be (as in exactly what will happen), and nothing they said was a detail to casual or hardcore. They said stuff that was broad (like "a bit casual"), which you could ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers as to what they are think will happen based on that broad remark.

#246 Jul 05 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
You absolutely have not, everything you say can either be turned around the other way and used against you, or doesn't make sense.


To someone who doesn't know wtf they're talking about, what I say might not make sense. To someone with a clue and a bit more perspective, it makes perfect sense. You're not thinking form the perspective of a casual player, you're think from only your perspective. You haven't answer how a free warp item would hurt anyone. Ever. At all. You dance around that one like a stripper around a pole. So answer with a meaningful, logical answer as to how a free warp item would hurt you, and we can go from there. If you can't, you're just being a dork.
#247 Jul 05 2009 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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It doesn't matter how it would hurt anyone, tell me why this matters at all? A lot of things added would not hurt anyone that don't mean all of it should be added. It is not will it hurt anyone then it should be in, cause there is a whole list of things that doesn't necessarily hurt anyone that doesn't mean it should be added. You can say that about anything, new races (like crazy looking races), making everything instanced (as in press a button and you automatically end up anywhere you want to go), jumping, and much more things. Once again your own question used against you, how is requiring a small amount of effort hurting anyone?

Funny thing is I will be a casual player (more then 40 minutes but still casual), because I have things in my life (college, work, gf, life, etc). I have no problem with more casual friendly stuff, but I believe there should be some effort involved, bottom line.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 4:06pm by HocusP
#248 Jul 05 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
It doesn't matter how it would hurt anyone, tell me why this matters at all?


You're obviously too dense for this discussion. Go get a clue and then come back and we'll continue.

#249 Jul 05 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You're obviously too dense for this discussion. Go get a clue and then come back and we'll continue.


Of course stop reading after the first sentence because you have nothing to say. You can't answer you'r own question, and you can't explain why that even matters. There are tons of things that doesn't hurt anyone that doesn't mean it should be added.

You go get a clue, and come back, there are different opinions and you should have learned a long time ago to value other peoples opinions (even if you think yours is so right). I understand you want a free warp (or free stuff) and I value that, that doesn't mean I agree with it. You started with the insults (which most people use when they have nothing else intelligent to say), so I can go there too, but in the end it doesn't solve anything. My philosophy is effort=reward (even if its just completing a quest later on to get a HS, for when you level new jobs), and your philosophy is free=reward.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 4:13pm by HocusP
#250 Jul 05 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Quote:
You're obviously too dense for this discussion. Go get a clue and then come back and we'll continue.


Of course stop reading after the first sentence because you have nothing to say.


Oh, I read the whole thing. You're still clueless. You have no concept of how to attract and keep casual players. You appear to have no concept of much of anything outside FFXI. You lack the perspective to have an informed opinion, but that doesn't stop you from making fundamentally retarded arguments, so again...go grab yerself a clue and we can carry on.
#251 Jul 05 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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The point of a hearthstone style object is to get you back home in a quick and timely fashion.

When a party is over and you have no mage to warp you, what are you supposed to do? Walk for 30 minutes in a dangerous area to get back?

The hearthstone has a cooldown and a level one ability that lets you warp to your home city or home point for free will ALSO have a cooldown attached to it. There is your effort. You now cannot use it again for the next hour. If you go into a dungeon and get stuck with a tone of high level mobs, too bad. If your hearthstone was off CD you would have a way home.



A hearthstone is immensely useful, and needs to be available at all levels. Something that opens the game up to more people is always encouraged. There is no reason for a return journey home should take longer than the adventure.
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