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I don't like WoWFollow

#1 Jul 01 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't like RPGs without a compelling backstory, or in the case of WoW, one where I have to go to a website to learn about most of it instead of experiencing it in-game.

I don't like world PvP. I tried it. Oh, did I ever try it. I even leveled a character to the level cap on a PvP realm just to say that I did...and abandoned that character about a month afterward. I definitely didn't gain respect for the kinds of players who found it entertaining to cruise lowbie zones for hours upon hours killing every opposing faction player in sight. I just didn't understand the entertainment value from a "healthy person" point of view. From a game mechanics point of view, it was no more entertaining than running around with a level capped character one-shotting trash mobs in a level 20-40 zone. I can do it from time to time...farming, sh*ts and giggles, whatever. Hours upon hours? Not so much. Not entertaining for me. I guess if you're the type of person readily entertained by the idea of having the power to inconvenience and irritate people who have little/no recourse, lowbie ganking could be fun. I'll leave those folks to WoW and wish them the best.

I don't like the visual themes in a lot of the WoW zones. There were some zones that I enjoyed a great deal. There were a lot of zones that I just found were "meh" at best, fugly at worst. I give full entitlement to any game developer (MMO or otherwise) to design a graphical theme for their game as they see fit. It didn't always work for me. It wasn't horrible per se, but I might have prefered something a little more...refined.

I don't like the idea that a game so "hollow" from a lore standpoint could garner such an enormous amount of success because they lucked out and glommed on to game mechanics that worked. What a **** shame that it wound up being a mainstream game aimed at the adolescent North American market that got so many things right and wrapped those basic concepts around a game that was ultimately such a disappointment.

I would have been so, so much happier in FFXI with the lore and visual appeal and everything else that made it such a great game if only it hadn't been built around a dated design philosophy that left the vast majority of my time in-game unproductive and ultimately not very entertaining. Instead, I got stuck with WoW if for no other reason than at least I could log on and go.

Here's to an innovative hybrid coming our way within the next year or so and yes, I'm happy that it won't be WoW.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 12:55am by AureliusSir
#2 Jul 01 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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You madman you'll kill us all.




Well-written, though. I agree on most every point, even if I did enjoy world PvP to an extent.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 4:00pm by Kirbster
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#3 Jul 01 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
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This isn't the WoW forum.

This isn't livejournal either.
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#4 Jul 01 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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In.

I don't like Shoo Fly Pie. I think anything that is named because it's so sickening sweet that it attracts flies is not a great idea. The molasses makes the bottom of the crust soggy and every bite is so cloying not even the darkest roast of coffee is going to cut it.


Who cares who likes WoW or FFXI or hates WoW or hates Shoo Fly Pie. The only reason why any of us are here is because we are interested in FFXIV. We can worry about our MMO allegiances once the game has actually come out.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 5:03pm by baelnic
#5 Jul 01 2009 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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What I'm about to say is surprising, seeing how I am usually the resident pessimist/realist... but here it goes:

How about instead of listing obscure things you don't like from a non-related game by a completely different company, you list the things you DO like. Christ, I'm getting tired of whiny posters crying about crap they don't like.

I'll hand it to you though, you seem to have found the secret to dealing with games you don't like: Don't play them. It's really as simple as that.

I'm not trying to defend WoW: I have no basis for doing so, as I've only played 3hrs worth, but common already. Personally I think it is fine that there is a game that caters to a fanbase that, quite honestly, wouldn't probably fit in FFXI (and probably not in FFXIV). I'd rather them play a game they enjoy than clog FF servers when they aren't really into it, and thus complaining.
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#6 Jul 01 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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I do agree with you on a lot of aspects, and ESPECIALLY the lvl 80's raping hillsbrad or STV pretty much all day long because one shotting people 40+ levels lower than you is "pwnage". For the most part I really enjoyed wow, there are things other than you mentioned that I just didn't find to appealing. First being I felt that you reached max level to fast, and it was just a matter of grinding fetch/kill quest over and over and over again, (yes BC and WOtLK have more variety but still more of the same) you can say FFXI is guilty of this grind to, and yes it is, but at the very least your interacting with people, even though often you spend a lot of time looking for that group (although I am glad soloing will play a bigger role in XIV).

My other thing which is part of the reason why I still barely play even though our guild still hasn't gotten through all of ulduar is that endgame pretty much boils down to either raiding or PvP. An aspect I really enjoy about XI is doing missions or leveling another job (w/o having to start a new character).

And finally I know this may stir a bit of ****, but I swear the community is absolutely horrible as a whole in that game, and a couple of other blizzard's games to be fair (anyone ever play DOTA mod for Warcraft 3?). Yes there are many people who aren't borderline retarded spouting "ep1c phails and lawlz" all day long but it seems that there are more people that do. Someone brought up that part of the reason is probably that WoW has a much larger playerbase and yes that probably does play a big role in that. For me I can think of FAR more times when i've met really nice and helpful people in FFXI (that heal me when i'm in a losing fight, or raise me if i'm dead, or help with a hard mission) than I have in WoW.

But hey good read and overall I very much agree with you, I don't hate the game and they both are good (although I would be lying if I said I didn't prefer XI), but XIV gives me hope that it takes some strong points of WoW and XI and gives us one **** of an experience.

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#7 Jul 01 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Bardalicious wrote:
What I'm about to say is surprising, seeing how I am usually the resident pessimist/realist... but here it goes:

How about instead of listing obscure things you don't like from a non-related game by a completely different company, you list the things you DO like. Christ, I'm getting tired of whiny posters crying about crap they don't like.

I'll hand it to you though, you seem to have found the secret to dealing with games you don't like: Don't play them. It's really as simple as that.

I'm not trying to defend WoW: I have no basis for doing so, as I've only played 3hrs worth, but common already. Personally I think it is fine that there is a game that caters to a fanbase that, quite honestly, wouldn't probably fit in FFXI (and probably not in FFXIV). I'd rather them play a game they enjoy than clog FF servers when they aren't really into it, and thus complaining.


I'll let you in on a little secret...

This post came about because I'm tired of being told that any idea that comes from WoW denotes a desire to see a WoW clone. I'm tired of the "camps" of people who play this MMO or that MMO arguing on a macro level about ideas that are put forward on a micro level. I'm tired of the incredibly narrow views running rampant through these forums, and I'm tired of feeling like the people who made the FFXI community the great place it was have mostly moved on and all that's left are the dunces that feel compelled to cling to all things FFXI.

I'm looking forward to FFXIV. I'm looking forward to this forum community once FFXIV goes live. In the meantime, I'll continue to entertain myself by poking fun at the thick twits who have crept over here from god knows where, not because it's ideal but because it has its moments. And the next time some fanboi dork accuses me of wanting a WoW clone, or, "FF NOT WOW!", I can link this thread and hopefully cut down on some of the bickering.

c wut i did thar?
#8 Jul 01 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I don't like RPGs without a compelling backstory, or in the case of WoW, one where I have to go to a website to learn about most of it instead of experiencing it in-game.

I don't like world PvP. I tried it. Oh, did I ever try it. I even leveled a character to the level cap on a PvP realm just to say that I did...and abandoned that character about a month afterward. I definitely didn't gain respect for the kinds of players who found it entertaining to cruise lowbie zones for hours upon hours killing every opposing faction player in sight. I just didn't understand the entertainment value from a "healthy person" point of view. From a game mechanics point of view, it was no more entertaining than running around with a level capped character one-shotting trash mobs in a level 20-40 zone. I can do it from time to time...farming, sh*ts and giggles, whatever. Hours upon hours? Not so much. Not entertaining for me. I guess if you're the type of person readily entertained by the idea of having the power to inconvenience and irritate people who have little/no recourse, lowbie ganking could be fun. I'll leave those folks to WoW and wish them the best.

I don't like the visual themes in a lot of the WoW zones. There were some zones that I enjoyed a great deal. There were a lot of zones that I just found were "meh" at best, fugly at worst. I give full entitlement to any game developer (MMO or otherwise) to design a graphical theme for their game as they see fit. It didn't always work for me. It wasn't horrible per se, but I might have prefered something a little more...refined.

I don't like the idea that a game so "hollow" from a lore standpoint could garner such an enormous amount of success because they lucked out and glommed on to game mechanics that worked. What a **** shame that it wound up being a mainstream game aimed at the adolescent North American market that got so many things right and wrapped those basic concepts around a game that was ultimately such a disappointment.

I would have been so, so much happier in FFXI with the lore and visual appeal and everything else that made it such a great game if only it hadn't been built around a dated design philosophy that left the vast majority of my time in-game unproductive and ultimately not very entertaining. Instead, I got stuck with WoW if for no other reason than at least I could log on and go.

Here's no an innovative hybrid coming our way within the next year or so and yes, I'm happy that it won't be WoW.


It's like beer goggles or being in love: you only see what you want to see.
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#9 Jul 01 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
I'm tired of the "camps" of people who play this MMO or that MMO arguing on a macro level about ideas that are put forward on a micro level.

And thus you add to it by making another topic all about WoW.

I can see how you are contributing to the fixing of this problem by exasperating it! Totally reverse psychology stuff. I never would have thought to use reverse psychology; you must be a genius!
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#10 Jul 01 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This post came about because I'm tired of being told that any idea that comes from WoW denotes a desire to see a WoW clone.

So you thought it best to fuel the fire by ripping on a game that already has a bad rep in this community. How chivalrous.

Quote:
I'm tired of the incredibly narrow views running rampant through these forums, and I'm tired of feeling like the people who made the FFXI community the great place it was have mostly moved on and all that's left are the dunces that feel compelled to cling to all things FFXI.

Narrow views such as pointing out only negatives? Yeah, I can see how that might be annoying. Of course some people have moved on, it's called a real life. People with them tend to not give MMOs more than a couple of years. If they do, it's generally not at the high time sink levels required for FFXI's end game. Everyone has their breaking point.

Quote:

In the meantime, I'll continue to entertain myself by poking fun at the thick twits who have crept over here from god knows where, not because it's ideal but because it has its moments. And the next time some fanboi dork accuses me of wanting a WoW clone, or, "FF NOT WOW!", I can link this thread and hopefully cut down on some of the bickering.

Your post count doesn't imply seniority. Also, before you lash out at people for being "fanboi dorks" think about how adamantly you are trying to defend your position about a VIDEO GAME. Seriously, think about it. As for cutting down on the bickering, you must not of that that one out, eh?

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#11 Jul 01 2009 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Everybody is sick tired of this WoW vs Final Fantasy war, which only exist in some ppl's minds...
It is not gonna be anything like a "WoW clone", and if you have comments about WoW then please ppl just go on world of warcraft.com to leave it there, because this is really not the place to argue about it.
Square Enix is not Blizzard and will never be, hopefully they will both keep doing their job and bless their fans own with very good games.

This said everyone should remember that something you like might be disliked by another person and vice versa, it should be kept in mind before offending someone that thinks different then us.

I sincerly hope to see no more war among people in this forum, there is good and bad in all things.

(Spelling might be "[too weak]" as somebody pointed out before, I'm still learning English, i try ^^ )
#12 Jul 01 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Nerio wrote:
Square Enix is not Blizzard and will never be, hopefully they will both keep doing their job and bless their fans own with very good games.

Thank god they aren't the same company. Things would be really boring without variety in the world.

Though I do seem to recall reading somewhere that Blizzard and Square were in discussions about making a game together. Should be interesting if they can work out the deal.
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#13 Jul 01 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
I don't like RPGs without a compelling backstory, or in the case of WoW, one where I have to go to a website to learn about most of it instead of experiencing it in-game.

...

I don't like the idea that a game so "hollow" from a lore standpoint could garner such an enormous amount of success because they lucked out and glommed on to game mechanics that worked. What a **** shame that it wound up being a mainstream game aimed at the adolescent North American market that got so many things right and wrapped those basic concepts around a game that was ultimately such a disappointment.


While I haven't played WoW at all, and very much enjoy FFXI's mechanics (in all their clunky, juggernautish glory), I totally agree with you on the setting and "feel". The depth of the setting is one of the things that always amazes me, especially after I started playing Lord of the Rings Online and saw just how thin and vapid a MMO could be. How Turbine ever succeeded at making that setting fall flat, I'll never know.

Here's hoping that FFXIV expands on FFXI's strengths and addresses its weaknesses. It'll be a **** of a game if it can.

RedGalka wrote:
...you only see what you want to see.


And you hear what you want to hear...

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 8:20pm by CapnCrass
#14 Jul 01 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Bardalicious wrote:

So you thought it best to fuel the fire by ripping on a game that already has a bad rep in this community. How chivalrous.


This community? Since when are you the community spokesperson? FFXI has a bad rep in "this" community as well...'cept this isn't really a community...yet. It will be. That, however, won't happen until the game goes live and nobody has any speculation left to argue about. Or at least, not enough to keep the trolls fed. Then they'll move on.

Quote:

Narrow views such as pointing out only negatives? Yeah, I can see how that might be annoying. Of course some people have moved on, it's called a real life. People with them tend to not give MMOs more than a couple of years. If they do, it's generally not at the high time sink levels required for FFXI's end game. Everyone has their breaking point.


You seem like a bright enough fellow so I'm certain I needn't review the concept of debate with you. It's not the general disagreement and debate that bothers me...it's the foundation upon which so many of the arguments are based.

Quote:

Your post count doesn't imply seniority.


That's right. At least, not in the sense of authority or privilege.

Quote:
Also, before you lash out at people for being "fanboi dorks" think about how adamantly you are trying to defend your position about a VIDEO GAME. Seriously, think about it. As for cutting down on the bickering, you must not of that that one out, eh?



It's a hobby. You've never heard folks sit around and argue about football, or hockey, or baseball? I used to have a couple of friends that would argue back and forth for hours about anything and everything to do with professional sports of all kinds. The main difference was, when one of them was talking about football, the other one wasn't sitting their like a ninny whining about how much football was too much like hockey because both games involved moving an object around and trying to accomplish something at one end of the game area.
#15 Jul 01 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This community? Since when are you the community spokesperson?

did you yourself not also comment on the fact that WoW gets ripped on?
Quote:

It's a hobby. You've never heard folks sit around and argue about football, or hockey, or baseball?

i dare say that said folks are called.... "fans". I was implying that you, too, are acting like a fanboi and thereby have no room to talk.
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#16 Jul 01 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Been seeing AureliusSir's posts on several topics around here and I'm finding myself nodding my head while reading them and agreeing wholeheartedly with most of what you're saying. They're one of the most insightful and non-biased posts on these boards. It's a shame S-E aren't reading some of this stuff.

Anyway, just thought I'd post a lil' appreciation. So even if, at the end of the day your suggestions don't get implemented or viewed by S-E staff at all, you're at least making this board so much bearable to read for me and probably many other non-vocal people who aren't on either side of the WoW vs FF:XI poopflinging clusterf**k of fanboys fighting over who deserves to "get FF:XIV".

Keep it up!


Edited, Jul 1st 2009 9:11pm by Kaize
#17 Jul 01 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Default
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Kaize "1 post" wrote:

"AureliusSir's posts are by far the most insightful and non-biased posts on these boards."

Sock puppet.

I lol'd.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 8:48pm by Karelyn
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#18Maldavian, Posted: Jul 01 2009 at 4:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Haha, no comment OoOo
#19 Jul 01 2009 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sock puppet.

I lol'd.


me too xD
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#20 Jul 01 2009 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Bardalicious wrote:
Quote:
This community? Since when are you the community spokesperson?

did you yourself not also comment on the fact that WoW gets ripped on?


Sure it does...but usually for the wrong reasons (my opinion, of course).

Quote:
Quote:

It's a hobby. You've never heard folks sit around and argue about football, or hockey, or baseball?

i dare say that said folks are called.... "fans". I was implying that you, too, are acting like a fanboi and thereby have no room to talk.


Fanboi of what?
#21 Jul 01 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
Kaize
1 post
wrote:


"AureliusSir's posts are by far the most insightful and non-biased posts on these boards."

Sock puppet.

I lol'd.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 8:42pm by Karelyn


What you want to do then is report the post or PM an admin and ask them to do a sock check. Not sure I appreciate being accused of that sort of thing. I would appreciate that if maybe you're going to make a comment like that you follow through with it, and when you find out it's not a sock (at least, not mine), you go ahead and edit your post to retract the insinuation.

It's up to you, really, but I'm sure you have enough class to not level accusations at people without being a good sport about it. I'm sure you understand.
#22 Jul 01 2009 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sock puppet.

I lol'd.

Yeah, I know, that was *********** at its best(worst?) but honestly, these boards are reeking with so much bias I thought I'd give some compliment to the guys who manage to post objectively.
And yes, I signed up just to post that, I'm usually too lazy to get involved in discussions (I enjoy reading them though) :x.
don't hate me broski :(

edit: looking at my post now it certainly does look like a sockpuppet lol. Apologies to AurilusSir..

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 9:10pm by Kaize
#23akirussan, Posted: Jul 01 2009 at 5:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There are almost enough idiosyncratic phrasings in that post to make me believe you are not a sock puppet.
#24 Jul 01 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
I don't like RPGs without a compelling backstory, or in the case of WoW, one where I have to go to a website to learn about most of it instead of experiencing it in-game.


The entire Warcraft storyline can actually be found in the game. In various locations (cities, dungeons, mini-dungeons) there are books you can open that tell you bits and pieces of the story.
#25 Jul 01 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There are almost enough idiosyncratic phrasings in that post to make me believe you are not a sock puppet.

Almost.

Err.. Sorry, I guess..?

Look, this might be unknown to a lot of you 1k+ post count people, but there are a lot more lurkers on these forums than you might think, don't jump to retarded conclusions when you suddenly see 1 post count people pop in and takes a side in days long threads or ****, compliment someone else, it really doesn't have to mean it's some guy posting on an alt account.

Anyway, enough of this patronizing pile of dogturd please. Back on topic: flame the OP!1 :D:D:D:D:D
#26 Jul 01 2009 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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I think you and I are different types of gamers Aurelius, but I would liek to offer my perspective on some of your opinions.
Aurelius wrote:
I don't like RPGs without a compelling backstory, or in the case of WoW, one where I have to go to a website to learn about most of it instead of experiencing it in-game.

Completely on point here. WoW had a rather weak in game storyline, but you go on to say
Aurelius wrote:
I don't like the idea that a game so "hollow" from a lore standpoint could garner such an enormous amount of success because they lucked out and glommed on to game mechanics that worked.

I disagree with you that WoW lacks lore. Quite the opposite I feel, WoW's lore is one of the strongest of any game series I've ever read. It's very well developed in terms of quantity of materiel, and I do feel that it's a rather interesting and well conceived lore as well. You won't find much of it in game, but if you want to take the time to check out some of the books I think you'd be quite impressed.
Aurelius wrote:
I don't like world PvP. I tried it. Oh, did I ever try it. I even leveled a character to the level cap on a PvP realm just to say that I did...and abandoned that character about a month afterward. I definitely didn't gain respect for the kinds of players who found it entertaining to cruise lowbie zones for hours upon hours killing every opposing faction player in sight.

It's fine if you don;t like world pvp. I personally believe it would not mesh well with the FF setting and is not a feature that should be present in every MMORPG.

However, I think you have a grossly biased view on what world pvp is about and what its appeal is. World pvp is not about a level 80 ganking a level 1. It happens every so often, but that not its purpose and not what the people who join pvp servers are looking for. World pvp is primarily about:

1. Breaking routine. To an imaginative person pve questing or leveling can be rather boring in the world, especially on your second character. I already know where the quest npc is, where the mob I have to kill is, and how challenging the fight is. I know exactly how long it will take me to finish this quest and exactly where I will go for my next quest. I'm not so much playing the game anymore as I am watching my character perform the 2 hours of game play I planned for the session. World pvp mixes that up. It's not scripted. I don't know what to expect. It adds an extra layer of thrill and excitement to a game where I'd normally be fighting mobs I could kill with my eyes closed.

2. Something different. world pvp allows for weird and fun encounters that just couldn't be programmed into the game normally. Have you ever seen 5 level 15 characters team up to take down a level 40? It can be fun on both ends, but it's the kind of event that can only occur in world pvp. World pvp players get to see things that pve and even Ballista/Battlgrounds pvp players don't get to see.

Not allowing world pvp to try to avoid high levels ganking low levels is like not letting a kid play outside because he might scrap his knee. Can bad things happen? Sure. But most of the time they don't, and you can take steps to guard against each. In any case you're missing out on a lot of potential fun by not joining in on world pvp.
#27 Jul 01 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Sort of begs the question, why do I have to buy a book to get the storyline of a videogame I'm playing? I'll agree the Warcraft Franchise has some good writing. World of Warcraft, however, has really only just started to implement storyline effectively with the quest lines in Northrend.

World PvP in WoW is a mixed blessing.
An honorable battle fought in Southshore or at the mouth of an instance to claim the Summoning Stone is interesting, spontaneous, an example of players taking control of the game and making it their own in the best way. It's a shame it's just so darned rare compared to World PvP's redheaded stepchild Ganking.

I can't understand why that's entertaining.





#28 Jul 01 2009 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
I disagree with you that WoW lacks lore. Quite the opposite I feel, WoW's lore is one of the strongest of any game series I've ever read. It's very well developed in terms of quantity of materiel, and I do feel that it's a rather interesting and well conceived lore as well. You won't find much of it in game, but if you want to take the time to check out some of the books I think you'd be quite impressed.


I read some of the lore...it was interesting. I still think what might have been a better alternative would have been to incorporate it directly into the game, starting early and carrying right the way through. I know you could get snippets of the lore here and there from quests and the like, but it was (for me) too spread out and watered down. I somewhat resented that I had to choose between playing the game or getting my lore fixing by browsing the website. The highlight of my entire WoW experience was the Wrathgate event, and Blizzard did a much, much better job of incorporating the lore into WotLK overall.

I think the compelling nature of a fantastic story was evident with CoP in FFXI. There is no way...no way I would have gone through those missions if it weren't for the promise of a kickass CS after you down the next boss and progress the missions some more leading to the next challenging encounter. Sadly, I know there were more than a few people who soaked the consumable costs and ground their way through CoP because they felt that if they didn't, they would have wasted their money on the expansion or they would have been excluded from a segment of endgame, but I did it all for the story and didn't regret a single minute of it.

Quote:
However, I think you have a grossly biased view on what world pvp is about and what its appeal is. World pvp is not about a level 80 ganking a level 1. It happens every so often, but that not its purpose and not what the people who join pvp servers are looking for.


It definitely wasn't what I was looking for ;D I agree, PvP could add another layer of diversity to the game. My experience was one where that layer of diversity didn't account for the time wasted on account of the rampant gankings. Another layer to the issue is the frustration of focusing on the PvE end of things and having your class of choice subjected to an almost relentless string of nerfs to account for what was going on in the PvP end of the spectrum. I was largely able to avoid a lot of those nerfs when I opted to focus on my pally (tank) because tank builds weren't exactly common in PvP at the time. Even then I didn't escape the nerf bat when pallies as an overall class were smacked to address the issue of ret pallies running around bubblestomping people in BGs/arena while using Divine Wrath to further enhance their already obscene spike damage.

Blizzard has demonstrated very clearly that achieving true balance in PvP is virtually impossible, and almost as impossible to even attempt that balance without having a detrimental impact on the PvE game. As far as PvP goes in FFXIV, I wouldn't be at all unhappy with SE for implementing systems in the same scope as what FFXI has. I just hope they leave it as a side-attraction and never let that end of things have a significant impact on the PvE side of things.
#29 Jul 01 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:
It's a shame it's just so darned rare compared to World PvP's redheaded stepchild Ganking. I can't understand why that's entertaining.

The general measure by which you can judge gankers, is that they are people who are very... very VERY VERY bad at PvP. It's hard to properly express just how bad they are at PvP. Gankers tend to be young children who want to feel badass, but have pretty much a flawless record of losses against players of the same level. Their solution is to attack people who are at a severe disadvantage.

To put it in perspective, I had a paladin attempt to gank me while I was at half health earlier today. Equal footing and equal skill, a Paladin should be able to beat me without any difficulty. This guy managed to use every emergency cooldown he had, and I still killed him without needing to use one of my cooldowns.

I'm not bragging. It wasn't an act of great skill on my part, this guy was JUST THAT BAD.
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#30 Jul 01 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
I somewhat resented that I had to choose between playing the game or getting my lore fixing by browsing the website.

For me, lore is back story. It's something the current story of a game might allude but not reveal. I actually prefer that it not be directly revealed in the game.

As for actual story, it's not why I play MMORPGs. FFXI certainly did a better job with the storyline than WoW, and it did improve the game experience for me, but I consider that a small improvement. In MMORPgs, it is simply not a priority for me.
AureliusSir wrote:
Another layer to the issue is the frustration of focusing on the PvE end of things and having your class of choice subjected to an almost relentless string of nerfs to account for what was going on in the PvP end of the spectrum.

I think this was more a problem with Blizzard's plan for consistency between pvp and pve. I don't believe pvp abilities and classes have to function exactly like they do in pve. It's clear that most MMORPGs are willing to completely ignore the concept of threat i povp, so why not alter other aspects? People were willing to accept diminishing returns in both FFXI and woW, and the first polymorph nerf down to 12 seconds was a good idea.

I don't think pvp balance has to mess with pve balance. I don't see why the developer can't make a nerf for the sake of pvp that is only in affect in pvp. Pvp changes don't have to carry over to pve.
AureliusSir wrote:
Blizzard has demonstrated very clearly that achieving true balance in PvP is virtually impossible, and almost as impossible to even attempt that balance without having a detrimental impact on the PvE game.

While often true, I think it's also somewhat of an arrogance of pve players to dismiss pvp content.

If Blizzard nerfs pvp abilties and that has a negative impact on pve it can also be said that pve abilties broke pvp and so blizzard decided to balance the game. This is a viewpoint I rarely see, because most pve players see pvp as a sideshow rather than a legitimate form of MMORPG play, which I think is rather sad.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 11:10pm by Allegory
#31 Jul 02 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
I somewhat resented that I had to choose between playing the game or getting my lore fixing by browsing the website.

For me, lore is back story. It's something the current story of a game might allude but not reveal. I actually prefer that it not be directly revealed in the game.

As for actual story, it's not why I play MMORPGs. FFXI certainly did a better job with the storyline than WoW, and it did improve the game experience for me, but I consider that a small improvement. In MMORPgs, it is simply not a priority for me.


I'm just old-school RPG through and through. I didn't buy FFXI because it was an MMO...I bought it because it was a FF game. I liked the MMO concept which led me to WoW, which as mentioned I found disappointingly lacking in the story category.

Quote:
If Blizzard nerfs pvp abilties and that has a negative impact on pve it can also be said that pve abilties broke pvp and so blizzard decided to balance the game. This is a viewpoint I rarely see, because most pve players see pvp as a sideshow rather than a legitimate form of MMORPG play, which I think is rather sad.


There seems to be a cycle with the nerfs. Expansion time is time to focus on PvE. Then it's a steady stream of tweaks, nerfs, and even buffs largely for the sake of PvP that carries on right until the next expansion is about to come out. It's a difficulty for both sides of the fence...it just so happens that my side was mostly the PvE side ;D Having your class mechanics altered for the sake of "balance" in an area of the game that doesn't interest you is always a bit...off-putting. That's why I'm hoping SE focuses on their specialty...PvE content and lore. Ghostcrawler probably has an ulcer the size of a softball by now.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 11:10pm by Allegory[/quote]
#32 Jul 02 2009 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
That's why I'm hoping SE focuses on their specialty...PvE content and lore.

I think you're right at least about the PvE part.

I did enjoy my ballista experience sin FFXI, and I have to say a lot of that was because SE didn't focus very much on pvp. The rewards were trivial, so the only people who played were those who really enjoyed it. The combat was rather broken, but people didn't care because it wasn't a serious affair. I had fun.
#33 Jul 02 2009 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure what all the hype is about the playerbase of WoW being so immature. I played on an RP server for about a year or so, not because I'm a roleplayer, in fact, most of our guild wasn't really, but because the one friend of ours who started playing first went on that server (Earthen Ring for those curious) and we all just followed. I found on the whole that the playerbase was on a par for maturity with that of FFXI - you still got a few idiots but because PvP was restricted to when you actually wanted to fight you got to fully appreciate the PvP system as more of a sport and players were generally cooperative.
So basically, SE have already said they're restricting PvP to something similar and that's going to above all directly affect the maturity of the playerbase. So stop worrying.

EDIT - I should probably point out though that I liked the idea of turning pvp on and off at will, and duelling and stuff like that. In FF I'd like to see something similar (as well as official pvp events), just so long as players are free to roam without being harrassed too.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 5:56am by godmademedoit
#34 Jul 02 2009 at 2:06 AM Rating: Good
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godmademedoit wrote:
I should probably point out though that I liked the idea of turning pvp on and off at will, and duelling and stuff like that. In FF I'd like to see something similar (as well as official pvp events), just so long as players are free to roam without being harrassed too.

Dueling and pvp events work, but flaggable open world pvp does not.

WoW had separate pve and pvp servers. The descriptions were rather misleading though. PvE servers, by default, you were unable to attack someone unless they consented to pvp by flagging themselves. On pvp servers you were always flagged in a contested territory. This makes it sound like you have a choice on pve servers and are forced to pvp on pvp servers. In truth, the opposite was true. There is basically zero open pvp on pve servers and there is completely optional pvp on pvp servers.

The reason is that nobody flags for a fight they think they cannot win. Ganking is an occasional occurrence on pvp servers, but all open pvp on pve servers was ganking. Either someone was trying to trick you into attacking them so you would flag and their friends would unstealth to murder you, or people would engage in a game of chicken were players would flag near town guards hoping to lure in prey.
#35 Jul 02 2009 at 2:36 AM Rating: Default
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I guess, but then tricking someone into being aggressive so they can gank you is actually pretty good roleplaying, don't you think? I remember running through the burning crusade parts and in Hellfire there was an open PvP repeatable quest where you could occupy 3 towers. Basically at level 62 or so you were pretty much sure to get ganked if you weren't careful, but I actually found it kinda fun to stealth around the place trying to trick the players I knew were out to gank me into defending the wrong towers and stuff. I think basically the people who flag pvp on pve servers are doing so because they enjoy it, for whatever reason, whether it's immature or daft or what never bothered me because it was entirely optional.
#36 Jul 02 2009 at 2:40 AM Rating: Decent
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godmademedoit wrote:
I guess, but then tricking someone into being aggressive so they can gank you is actually pretty good roleplaying, don't you think?

Not really, seeing as how their intention is neither role play nor is their action anything like it. They're attempting to trick the other player into aggroing npc guards.

If a game is going to have open world pvp, it needs to not have a flagging system.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 5:40am by Allegory
#37 Jul 02 2009 at 2:44 AM Rating: Default
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Well yes, that could be considered a form of roleplaying, it dosen't mean their character's a nice person lol. I mean you're effectively in a cold war in WoW, so you could say it's a dissident trying to get the other side to break the truce. Also as I recall in that hellfire quest there was a few times I'd team up with another couple of players trying to do the same objective and trick the Horde into thinkin there was just one of us as bait, then appear out of nowhere and kick his ***. Any experienced player finds out pretty quick not to attack someone trying that tactic you mentioned so either they're up to the challenge and ready to punish such impertinence or they're about to learn a valuable life lesson in game aggro mechanics.
#38 Jul 03 2009 at 6:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I read some of the lore...it was interesting. I still think what might have been a better alternative would have been to incorporate it directly into the game, starting early and carrying right the way through. I know you could get snippets of the lore here and there from quests and the like, but it was (for me) too spread out and watered down. I somewhat resented that I had to choose between playing the game or getting my lore fixing by browsing the website. The highlight of my entire WoW experience was the Wrathgate event, and Blizzard did a much, much better job of incorporating the lore into WotLK overall.


There are so many questlines in WoW right from the start which are about understanding the area you are in. Trying so investigate what's going on. Why certain things are the way they are. You say these quests are watered down, but what is it exactly that you're expecting? Pages full of lore that you have to read during a quest? That would make gaming pretty **** boring.

Speaking of books: there are a lot of books all over the place in WoW which have tales about what happend in the past.

Just how much more concrete do you want lore to be in WoW? Give me some examples please. Also if you're going to answer then please don't answer: "I want the lore to be like in FFXI", because even though FFXI has very nice missions, which tell amazing stories, the amount of lore besides that is very weak to non exsistant.
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#39 Jul 03 2009 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
There are so many questlines in WoW right from the start which are about understanding the area you are in. Trying so investigate what's going on. Why certain things are the way they are. You say these quests are watered down, but what is it exactly that you're expecting? Pages full of lore that you have to read during a quest? That would make gaming pretty **** boring.

Speaking of books: there are a lot of books all over the place in WoW which have tales about what happend in the past.

Just how much more concrete do you want lore to be in WoW? Give me some examples please. Also if you're going to answer then please don't answer: "I want the lore to be like in FFXI", because even though FFXI has very nice missions, which tell amazing stories, the amount of lore besides that is very weak to non exsistant.


If the lore had been implemented in vanilla/TBC the way it was in WotLK, I would have enjoyed it a lot more.
#40 Jul 06 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
Knowing the context, I LOLed at the comments here. People assume a lot from one post!

Anyways, I basically agree with your list, these are the things I don't like about WoW either. They're getting progressively worse with their laziness on new equipment models too. For god's sakes, the new paladin argent warhorse has cracks in the CLOTH on it. Please kill the worn out stone looking chipped and mottled texture with fire and stop using it for _every_little_thing_. Stop using it for every stinking weapon and armor.

Seriously, metal: look into it. Get someone with an ounce of creativity.

And dear god, I hope someone was fired for this: terribad battlegear

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 10:35am by digitalcraft
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#41 Jul 06 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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[quote]Just how much more concrete do you want lore to be in WoW? Give me some examples please. Also if you're going to answer then please don't answer: "I want the lore to be like in FFXI", because even though FFXI has very nice missions, which tell amazing stories, the amount of lore besides that is very weak to non exsistant.[quote]

The problem with WoW's lore is that it's set in an already-developed universe. WarCraft isn't just 3 games and a couple expansions, there's quite a few books which help shape the world. Anyone who's read these books (like myself) can see the some references to them in the game, but it's mostly left out. For example, Krasus is a huge character in the books, and he has a non-existant role in the game. Also, Rexxar? SRSLY???
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#42 Jul 06 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Kharmageddon wrote:
Also, Rexxar? SRSLY???

You made me sadface :(

Rexxar in WoW makes me sadface a lot :(
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#43 Jul 06 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:


I don't like the idea that a game so "hollow" from a lore standpoint could garner such an enormous amount of success because they lucked out and glommed on to game mechanics that worked.



If you really think it was luck then maybe you should give it some more thought. If Blizzard is "lucky" then they are remarkably lucky, every time they release a game. When there is that much success for that long, you must either conclude that there is some real talent at work, or some supernatural guidance.
#44 Jul 06 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Default
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KarlHungis wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
I don't like the idea that a game so "hollow" from a lore standpoint could garner such an enormous amount of success because they lucked out and glommed on to game mechanics that worked.

If you really think it was luck then maybe you should give it some more thought. If Blizzard is "lucky" then they are remarkably lucky, every time they release a game. When there is that much success for that long, you must either conclude that there is some real talent at work, or some supernatural guidance.

They have a strong business model that puts the customer first, and avoids virtually every pitful that regularly harms other companies. There is definitely no luck involved. Lemme see if I can find their mission statement, I know they've posted it before...

*a few minutes later*

Grr, I can only find the abbreviated version. I know they've posted the more in-depth explanation of their business model before, but I can't find it.

1. Gameplay First
2. Commit To Quality (It'll be done when it's done ********
3. Learn & Grow
4. Embrace Your Inner Geek
5. Think Globally
6. Lead Responsibly
7. Play Nice, Play Fair
8. Every Voice Matters

That's the abbreviated version, and if you have played Blizzard games in the past, it's pretty easy to tell they adhere to those statements in ways that too many developers don't.

It isn't for everyone. But it's easy to see why they are as popular as they are.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 7:31pm by Karelyn
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#45 Jul 06 2009 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I refuse to add fuel to the fire of the WoW vs. FFXI war (I played both games and enjoyed them both. I also quit them both, so I'm hoping FFXIV will entertain me for a while), but I do need to comment on one thing:

Quote:
Bardalicious wrote:
So you thought it best to fuel the fire by ripping on a game that already has a bad rep in this community. How chivalrous.

This community? Since when are you the community spokesperson? FFXI has a bad rep in "this" community as well...'cept this isn't really a community...yet. It will be. That, however, won't happen until the game goes live and nobody has any speculation left to argue about. Or at least, not enough to keep the trolls fed. Then they'll move on.


I have to agree with Aurelius here. Actually, I have to strive not to disregard the rest of your comments after this.

People need to get it into their heads that this is NOT the FFXI forum. It is NOT a WoW forum. It is NOT a cross-game forum. It is one for FFXIV. The XI community != the XIV community. I have seen MANY posters from the WoW site here, as well as ones from the other game forums (and newbies). Even if WoW is disliked (in general) in the XI forums, and vice versa, doesn't mean the community in THIS forum has a majority opinion (or one with enough common support that it matters enough to give a label).

Making a sweeping claim that this community dislikes WoW just tells me you are ignorant. You may not like WoW. The XI forums may not like WoW. But the XIV forums are not you or them.

It is a game apart.

Don't force your agenda here. This forum deserves to be fostered with open-mindedness and hopefulness. Not with bashing other games and making enemies before the game even launches.
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#46Shazaamemt, Posted: Jul 06 2009 at 9:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Funny... this thread hasn't gotten the 'banstick' from a wow moderator yet.
#47 Jul 06 2009 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Funny... this thread hasn't gotten the 'banstick' from a wow moderator yet.

Guess if it is a pro-WoW thread in a FF forum it just doesn't happen.


Pro-WoW thread? Where?

You might want to be careful with your accusations of admin favoritism. If a thread deserves to be locked, it will be locked regardless of which admin does it or where that admin spends most of their time. If you have concerns about the nature of this thread such that you feel it needs to be locked, don't snivel and QQ about it...do something about it. PM an admin or use the "Report" feature under the OP. Otherwise, try to behave.
#48 Jul 06 2009 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
People need to get it into their heads that this is NOT the FFXI forum. It is NOT a WoW forum. It is NOT a cross-game forum. It is one for FFXIV. The XI community != the XIV community. I have seen MANY posters from the WoW site here, as well as ones from the other game forums (and newbies). Even if WoW is disliked (in general) in the XI forums, and vice versa, doesn't mean the community in THIS forum has a majority opinion (or one with enough common support that it matters enough to give a label).


I'd go as far to say that WoW is pretty disliked outside of any game forum that is not WoW. Even people who played it will probably agree to the fact it "could of been better" or something like that. There is an undeniable anti-WoW vibe here in a lot of topics. I also see a lot of "I like the way FFXI did this" type posts, even if half the community disagrees with it, it's not met with the hostility a topic that uses a WoW mechanic might meet.

Quote:
Don't force your agenda here. This forum deserves to be fostered with open-mindedness and hopefulness. Not with bashing other games and making enemies before the game even launches.


open-mindedness and internet forums are usually not things you find together. :/
#49 Jul 07 2009 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Litie wrote:


I'd go as far to say that WoW is pretty disliked outside of any game forum that is not WoW. Even people who played it will probably agree to the fact it "could of been better" or something like that. There is an undeniable anti-WoW vibe here in a lot of topics. I also see a lot of "I like the way FFXI did this" type posts, even if half the community disagrees with it, it's not met with the hostility a topic that uses a WoW mechanic might meet.



I think it may have more to do with the implied idea that because WoW is very successful, anything/everything that was done in WoW is somehow better than anything else that's been done elsewhere. Some people may get tired of feeling that they need to justify their decision to play something other than WoW, and thus lash out at any mention of WoW in a favorable light.

As a WoW player myself, I don't harbor any hostility towards the game, but at the same time, I don't accept it as the final word in MMOs. I think FFXI, as one example, does have some elements to it which are (from my perspective) clearly superior to WoW, or other MMOs. I don't want to see S-E choose to clone WoW features in general, but I especially don't want to see them implement ideas from WoW in cases where what they already designed in FFXI was superior.

It is simply inevitable that the most successful franchise will have some influence on any other MMO that is meant to be "mainstream," but in what ways will this happen and to what extent? We don't know yet. I think people are just paranoid that S-E will go too far or make the wrong choices.

#50 Jul 07 2009 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
I'd go as far to say that WoW is pretty disliked outside of any game forum that is not WoW. Even people who played it will probably agree to the fact it "could of been better" or something like that. There is an undeniable anti-WoW vibe here in a lot of topics. I also see a lot of "I like the way FFXI did this" type posts, even if half the community disagrees with it, it's not met with the hostility a topic that uses a WoW mechanic might meet.

While of course this is pure speculation based on anecdotal evidence, I think it has much more to do with some sort of strange inferiority complex with WoW. The same emotions that drive console wars drive MMORPG wars. People can't simply enjoy the game they are playing; they need to feel it is better than all the other games they could be playing. I also think the angst is tied to the same emotions that divide sports fans. There is some attachment to a game, that it somehow represents one's self. If someone thinks poorly of my team/game, then I transitively feel they think poorly of me. It becomes a personal issue.

WoW just happens to be the biggest target around. If Lotro had a huge player base, then Lotro would be the game everyone trash talked on other MMORPG forums. It could be any game(s), but it happened to be WoW.

Games can be fun and good without being hugely popular.
#51 Jul 07 2009 at 4:19 AM Rating: Default
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I'm going to have to right ahead and disagree with you there Allegory. I play FFXI, I like the game, and I've played it for years. I have openly acknowledged that it has it's problems, **** I've been downright abusive to the game. I also don't think it's he best at what it does. Now that said, I hate WoW. It has a terrible community, a horrible art style, just plain ugly graphics, and I can't stand point and click interface.
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